Hypothetical Leslie Frazier Hire: Harbinger of a Hellstorm?

[Midwesternbillsfan]

Seems like Frazier's very realistic hire could mean a ****storm of disgusting proportion could be in the forecast for Buffalo. And it'd be for various reasons: A) the residual devastation and frustration for those who have supposedly hitched their fanhood on Cowher or bust (doubtful they follow through, IMO), B) because Frazier's equaniminous and relaxed demeanor conjures up images of Dick Jauron, or C) because some fans will believe that Frazier's success w/the Vikings can be absolutely discredited because of the talent in their front-four.

What's ironic is... Frazier isn't even necessarily a poor hire. And it sure as hell ain't- and it wouldn't be- his fault that the Bills have gone an astounding decade without making the playoffs in a somewhat parity-filled league which has seen at least five new playoff teams (of the 12) from one season to the next every year dating back to 2003. Frazier's hire would be well-received nationally, and for more reasons than the promotion of an African-American coach to head coach; he does fundmentally seem to be respected by most NFL personnel and he may even currently quality as a "hot" coordinator... at least as much as anybody else. But he'd be abhorred here; locally, it'd be a marketing disaster, and Brandon and Nix would need to make a dramatic move to stave off a significant loss of ticket sales (trade of a 2nd for Umenyiora? Frazier's relationship w/Tony Dungy and the Bills' STILL-unsolved QB situation will naturally promote Michael Vick questions- but the fans may "see through that," even if a Vick addition is- primarily- for football purposes).

Anyway, I don't really know where I come out on this. It's getting rather ridiculous the nasty comments levied at Frazier, and for one wouldn't love his hypothetical hire but wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, either. But I do mostly understand the sentiment: after an entire dreadful, detestable decade of postseason-less play, Bills' fans deserve better than another dubiously successful 'experiment.' Anything less than the complete exhaustion of whatever interest Bill Cowher has for this job is probably deservably unacceptable.

[TheBrownBear]

You want to know how it would be spun by the national media.....
.
.
.
.
RACISM.

And yes, folks, that is not an indictment of you (and me) as fans, but of the media. And you better believe that is how it would play out.

[T-Long]

Seems like Frazier's very realistic hire could mean a ****storm of disgusting proportion could be in the forecast for Buffalo. And it'd be for various reasons: A) the residual devastation and frustration for those who have supposedly hitched their fanhood on Cowher or bust (doubtful they follow through, IMO), B) because Frazier's equaniminous and relaxed demeanor conjures up images of Dick Jauron, or C) because some fans will believe that Frazier's success w/the Vikings can be absolutely discredited because of the talent in their front-four.

What's ironic is... Frazier isn't even necessarily a poor hire. And it sure as hell ain't- and it wouldn't be- his fault that the Bills have gone an astounding decade without making the playoffs in a somewhat parity-filled league which has seen at least five new playoff teams (of the 12) from one season to the next every year dating back to 2003. Frazier's hire would be well-received nationally, and for more reasons than the promotion of an African-American coach to head coach; he does fundmentally seem to be respected by most NFL personnel and he may even currently quality as a "hot" coordinator... at least as much as anybody else. But he'd be abhorred here; locally, it'd be a marketing disaster, and Brandon and Nix would need to make a dramatic move to stave off a significant loss of ticket sales (trade of a 2nd for Umenyiora? Frazier's relationship w/Tony Dungy and the Bills' STILL-unsolved QB situation will naturally promote Michael Vick questions- but the fans may "see through that," even if a Vick addition is- primarily- for football purposes).

Anyway, I don't really know where I come out on this. It's getting rather ridiculous the nasty comments levied at Frazier, and for one wouldn't love his hypothetical hire but wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, either. But I do mostly understand the sentiment: after an entire dreadful, detestable decade of postseason-less play, Bills' fans deserve better than another dubiously successful 'experiment.' Anything less than the complete exhaustion of whatever interest Bill Cowher has for this job is probably deservably unacceptable.

very well said.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

nobody has answered this but what makes frazier even qualified???

[Jan Reimers]

nobody has answered this but what makes frazier even qualified???
Experience. A reputation as a good football mind, a good teacher and a quality person. Success as a coordinator. The same qualities that get every coordinator his first HC position.

[mikemac2001]

will he go for it on a 4th and 1 inside the opp 40?

to be honest if he wouldn't 99% of the time i don't want him

[trapezeus]

nobody has answered this but what makes frazier even qualified???

look at the guy's resume. he has been coaching teams like the 85 bears, the eagles, and minny over 20 years.

like donahoe, we'll have to find out how much of that was brilliant coaching and how much of it is having great personnel.

"the waiting drove me mad"

[Midwesternbillsfan]

nobody has answered this but what makes frazier even qualified???

I'm not endorsing him; I am staunchly in the "Do everything to entice Bill Cowher first" camp. But here's what Frazier seemingly has in his favor:

A) Albeit at tiny Trinity International, he does have HC'ing experience. At least at a collegiate level- albeit the NFL's an entirely different ballgame- he was a successful leader or men because the one-time incipient Trinity College was pretty successful in his nine years there.

B) He has worked w/many proven NFL head coaches and they may have made didactic impressions on him: among others, Frazier has worked w/Andy Reid in Philadelphia, Marvin Lewis in Cincinnati, and Dungy in Indianapolis, for example. And it's possible that Frazier has worked w/enough successful NFL personnel to assemble a better staff than most coordinator candidates.

C) His defenses have been generally opportunistic. Obviously he has the necessary talent w/the Vikings now but he made a demonstrative difference w/the Eagles' and Colts' secondaries and his '04 Cincinnati Bengals forced 36 turnovers (that wasn't enough to save his job; but he probably still did more w/less in Cincinnati).

D) His Vikings' defense is quite impressive. I know, I know... the Williams' duo at DT and the madman Allen at RDE; mostly fair enough. But they've nevertheless been successful, and if you believe that any amount of defensive talent is tantamount to necessarily succeeding look at all the talent that Bill Sheridan wasted in New York this year w/the Giants? More than a few injuries, sure (Chris Canty; Antonio Pierce; Kenny Phillips; Aaron Ross), but look at how badly squandered a defense comprised of talent like Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, Matthias Kiwanuka, Fred Robbins, Rocky Bernard, Barry Coefield, Michael Boley, and Corey Webster still was? At least Frazier hasn't mismanaged Minnesota's talent.

[TheBrownBear]

"the waiting drove me mad"

"Now, (Frazier's) here and I'm a mess!"

[better days]

Seems like Frazier's very realistic hire could mean a ****storm of disgusting proportion could be in the forecast for Buffalo. And it'd be for various reasons: A) the residual devastation and frustration for those who have supposedly hitched their fanhood on Cowher or bust (doubtful they follow through, IMO), B) because Frazier's equaniminous and relaxed demeanor conjures up images of Dick Jauron, or C) because some fans will believe that Frazier's success w/the Vikings can be absolutely discredited because of the talent in their front-four.

What's ironic is... Frazier isn't even necessarily a poor hire. And it sure as hell ain't- and it wouldn't be- his fault that the Bills have gone an astounding decade without making the playoffs in a somewhat parity-filled league which has seen at least five new playoff teams (of the 12) from one season to the next every year dating back to 2003. Frazier's hire would be well-received nationally, and for more reasons than the promotion of an African-American coach to head coach; he does fundmentally seem to be respected by most NFL personnel and he may even currently quality as a "hot" coordinator... at least as much as anybody else. But he'd be abhorred here; locally, it'd be a marketing disaster, and Brandon and Nix would need to make a dramatic move to stave off a significant loss of ticket sales (trade of a 2nd for Umenyiora? Frazier's relationship w/Tony Dungy and the Bills' STILL-unsolved QB situation will naturally promote Michael Vick questions- but the fans may "see through that," even if a Vick addition is- primarily- for football purposes).

Anyway, I don't really know where I come out on this. It's getting rather ridiculous the nasty comments levied at Frazier, and for one wouldn't love his hypothetical hire but wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, either. But I do mostly understand the sentiment: after an entire dreadful, detestable decade of postseason-less play, Bills' fans deserve better than another dubiously successful 'experiment.' Anything less than the complete exhaustion of whatever interest Bill Cowher has for this job is probably deservably unacceptable.

I am not sure what you mean by disgusting proportion. If you mean the fans would all be up in arms about the Bills hiring another unqualified coordinator when Nix said he would prefer to hire a person with HC experience then yes the answer is D.

I would much rather see the Bills keep Fewell as HC than hire Frazer if they were to go that route.

[HHURRICANE]

The Bills lost any opportunity to prove us wrong. They need to give the fans a pick they can sign off on.

Sorry, but Gregg Williams is probably considered a better head coaching prospect this very moment than Frazier and we already tried him.

[better days]

The Bills lost any opportunity to prove us wrong. They need to give the fans a pick they can sign off on.

Sorry, but Gregg Williams is probably considered a better head coaching prospect this very moment than Frazier and we already tried him.

Well, Gregg does have HC experience, as does Perry where Leslie has none.

[baalworship]

Seems like Frazier's very realistic hire could mean a ****storm of disgusting proportion could be in the forecast for Buffalo. And it'd be for various reasons: A) the residual devastation and frustration for those who have supposedly hitched their fanhood on Cowher or bust (doubtful they follow through, IMO), B) because Frazier's equaniminous and relaxed demeanor conjures up images of Dick Jauron, or C) because some fans will believe that Frazier's success w/the Vikings can be absolutely discredited because of the talent in their front-four.

What's ironic is... Frazier isn't even necessarily a poor hire. And it sure as hell ain't- and it wouldn't be- his fault that the Bills have gone an astounding decade without making the playoffs in a somewhat parity-filled league which has seen at least five new playoff teams (of the 12) from one season to the next every year dating back to 2003. Frazier's hire would be well-received nationally, and for more reasons than the promotion of an African-American coach to head coach; he does fundmentally seem to be respected by most NFL personnel and he may even currently quality as a "hot" coordinator... at least as much as anybody else. But he'd be abhorred here; locally, it'd be a marketing disaster, and Brandon and Nix would need to make a dramatic move to stave off a significant loss of ticket sales (trade of a 2nd for Umenyiora? Frazier's relationship w/Tony Dungy and the Bills' STILL-unsolved QB situation will naturally promote Michael Vick questions- but the fans may "see through that," even if a Vick addition is- primarily- for football purposes).

Anyway, I don't really know where I come out on this. It's getting rather ridiculous the nasty comments levied at Frazier, and for one wouldn't love his hypothetical hire but wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, either. But I do mostly understand the sentiment: after an entire dreadful, detestable decade of postseason-less play, Bills' fans deserve better than another dubiously successful 'experiment.' Anything less than the complete exhaustion of whatever interest Bill Cowher has for this job is probably deservably unacceptable.


If you like the guy great. But you can't make those who want a fiery coach or an aggressive scheme want this guy. I wouldn't want Tony Dungy so why would I want Leslie Frazier. He hasn't been a terrible coordinator but he certainly hasn't impressed me.

I am sick of soft schemes, players, and coaches. I want someone to come in here that is innovative and a play to win mentality. Frazier doesn't cut it on that front.

This guy screams play not to lose. Sounds like Dick Jauron football.

[Jan Reimers]

I am not sure what you mean by disgusting proportion. If you mean the fans would all be up in arms about the Bills hiring another unqualified coordinator when Nix said he would prefer to hire a person with HC experience then yes the answer is D.

I would much rather see the Bills keep Fewell as HC than hire Frazer if they were to go that route.
Please explain how you know that Frazier is "another unqualified coordinator."

[Midwesternbillsfan]

If you like the guy great. But you can't make those who want a fiery coach or an aggressive scheme want this guy. I wouldn't want Tony Dungy so why would I want Leslie Frazier. He hasn't been a terrible coordinator but he certainly hasn't impressed me.

I am sick of soft schemes, players, and coaches. I want someone to come in here that is innovative and a play to win mentality. Frazier doesn't cut it on that front.

This guy screams play not to lose. Sounds like Dick Jauron football.

A lot of people seem to projecting a lot of Jauron head coaching tendencies onto Frazier. I certainly can't definitively say that they're wrong- it's tantalogical because he's never been a head coach in NFL- but nobody can certainly unquestionably say that they're right, either, certainly not simply because both own pretty stoic demeanors. Frazier's Vikings' defenses do, though, seem to be relatively aggressive, mixing up blitzing schemes by often sending the likes of Ben Leber and Chad Greenway at LB'er or Madieu Williams at safety on blitzes. And if you can effectively generate a pass rush w/your front-four, anyway (primarily Jaren Allen, Kevin Williams, and to a lesser degree, Ray Edwards), why wouldn't you maximize the amount of players you can drop into coverage?

[baalworship]

A lot of people seem to projecting a lot of Jauron head coaching tendencies onto Frazier. I certainly can't definitively say that they're wrong- it's tantalogical because he's never been a head coach in NFL- but nobody can certainly unquestionably say that they're right, either, certainly not simply because both own pretty stoic demeanors. Frazier's Vikings' defenses do, though, seem to be relatively aggressive, mixing up blitzing schemes by often sending the likes of Ben Leber and Chad Greenway at LB'er or Madieu Williams at safety on blitzes. And if you can effectively generate a pass rush w/your front-four, anyway (primarily Jaren Allen, Kevin Williams, and to a lesser degree, Ray Edwards), why wouldn't you maximize the amount of players you can drop into coverage?


He is a Dungy, Cover 2 disciple. That philosophy is about bend but don't break, force your opponent to make a mistake by not giving up the big play. In practice this defense is often paired with an offense that also tries not to make a mistake. Boring.

That is the essence of Dick Jauron football and I am sick of it. I want an offensive coach who is innovative and failing that if we get a defensive guy he better bring the heat.

[Mahdi]

Experience. A reputation as a good football mind, a good teacher and a quality person. Success as a coordinator. The same qualities that gets every coordinator his first HC position.
Unfortunately the success as a coordinator part is not true.

[Mahdi]

look at the guy's resume. he has been coaching teams like the 85 bears, the eagles, and minny over 20 years.

like donahoe, we'll have to find out how much of that was brilliant coaching and how much of it is having great personnel.

"the waiting drove me mad"
Sorry but Frazier played on the 85 Bears... never coached them...

And yes let's look at his resume....

Pass defense the last 3 years: 32nd, 18th, 19th. 2007, 2008, 2009 respectively. And his trade is coaching the secondary.

Points allowed/GM this year 23rd.

DL: Jared Allen (PB) Kevin Williams (PB) Pat Williams (PB) Edwards (Rising player)

Sweet Resume.

[Midwesternbillsfan]

He is a Dungy, Cover 2 disciple. That philosophy is about bend but don't break, force your opponent to make a mistake by not giving up the big play. In practice this defense is often paired with an offense that also tries not to make a mistake. Boring.

That is the essence of Dick Jauron football and I am sick of it. I want an offensive coach who is innovative and failing that if we get a defensive guy he better bring the heat.

I know the fundamentals of the Tampa 2 defense. Doesn't mean you can't deviate from certain aspects of it- and more than on occasion- by sending Ronde Barber on a blitz. Frazier seems to understand that, and his Vikings' front-seven also has had the requisite size to be able to stout against the run: there are no 229-lb starting LB'ers like Ellison (Greenway, Henderson, and Leber all run at least 242) or even any 286-pound DT's like Spencer Johnson (the Williams' duo runs 30 pounds apiece more than that; Kevin Williams still remains the prototypical 3-tech DT, though). Anyway, just like defensive coordinator Larry Coyer in Indianapolis whom about his hire w/Caldwell's promotion did away w/certain elements of the Colts' undersized Cover 2 defense (demanded more girth in the interior, specifically DT (no more 254-pound starting DT's like Keyunta Dawson, for example); Coyer also demanded more size at WLB than the likes of Cato June or Freddie Keiaho), Frazier seems capable of accentuating the advantages of a Tampa 2 defense while doing away w/some of it's limitations.

Anyway, even though I've tacitly ended up a proponent of his because I've defended him numerous times in this thread, I am not even really behind Frazier's hire; I want Cowher. Badly. Like most of the rest of you. But if Ralph's reputation and this dreadful, postseason-less millenium has caused the appeal of the Bills to degenerate beyond recognition or beyond the realistic hope of being able to nab an elite coach like "The Chin," I won't outright reject the notion of Frazier as HC, either..

[Ingtar33]

Midwesternbillsfan... i like what you're trying but stop for a moment.

1) the Williams combo and the Vikes defense was rated pretty much the same BEFORE Frazier got there.. frankly, their run defense has slipped a bit since he got to Minn. He didn't bring those guys in, he had no input on the personnel he was working with. Perhaps it could be argued he convinced the coaches to bring in Jarod Allen; but he had nothing to do with the gigantic DTs he inherited. Considering he had small DTs every other place he coached I'd say it's much more likely he's making do with personnel he wishes he didn't have.

2) The Viking's fans dislike Frazier, and want to see him out the door precisely because he plays vanilla. don't believe me? think I'm talking out of my butt? I googled searched "vikings fan message board" and looked in the first board available. here is the link to the thread titled Frazier Interviews for Bills Job (http://vikingsmessageboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20633) and see how well liked and regarded he is by their fans. I was actually surprised that no one seemed to think well of him, and generally thought we'd be boned if we took him.

my favorite quote in that thread: I've never once thought that hes had this defense play above its level and I've never once said, "wow Frazier really came up with a good scheme for this game". It wouldnt be a loss if he went elsewhere.

[ddaryl]

I won''t dimiss Frazier but if he was to be hired before we interview at least 5 or so more candidates and exhaust our efforts for a guy like Cowher 1st I will probably be reduced to a fair weather fan until we are a bonafide contender again.


but if it's Frazier after an exhaustive search I will probably palette it better.


But then again.. Who the hell is Frazier and why do people consider him such a golden candidate ?

[Mahdi]

Midwesternbillsfan... i like what you're trying but stop for a moment.

1) the Williams combo and the Vikes defense was rated pretty much the same BEFORE Frazier got there.. frankly, their run defense has slipped a bit since he got to Minn. He didn't bring those guys in, he had no input on the personnel he was working with. Perhaps it could be argued he convinced the coaches to bring in Jarod Allen; but he had nothing to do with the gigantic DTs he inherited. Considering he had small DTs every other place he coached I'd say it's much more likely he's making do with personnel he wishes he didn't have.

2) The Viking's fans dislike Frazier, and want to see him out the door precisely because he plays vanilla. don't believe me? think I'm talking out of my butt? I googled searched "vikings fan message board" and looked in the first board available. here is the link to the thread titled Frazier Interviews for Bills Job (http://vikingsmessageboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20633) and see how well liked and regarded he is by their fans. I was actually surprised that no one seemed to think well of him, and generally thought we'd be boned if we took him.

my favorite quote in that thread: I've never once thought that hes had this defense play above its level and I've never once said, "wow Frazier really came up with a good scheme for this game". It wouldnt be a loss if he went elsewhere.
Thank You. I'm tired of the blind acceptance and the "well respected around the league line"

[shelby]

Let's face facts: we all want Cowher, but odds are that isn't going to happen.

Brace yourselves.

[PromoTheRobot]

And you know what? There would be a sh**storm no matter who we hire short of Cowher. Mostly from the ignorant mouth-breathing knuckledraggers, and you know who you are. I also know that none of you can stay away. You'll hem and haw and you'll be right back here pitchin' a sh**fit over the draft or whatever. Nothing ever changes.

PTR

[better days]

Let's face facts: we all want Cowher, but odds are that isn't going to happen.

Brace yourselves.

If Cowher does not happen, that does not mean the Bills have to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Bilick has said he would be interested in coaching the Bills & maybe Marty could be talked into it.

People that are fine with Frazier, let me ask you how many 1st time HC's have won a Super Bowl VS how many were fired within 4 years of their hire?

[Jeff1220]

If anybody other than Cowher is hired , especially someone like Frazier, the Bills will have to make some pretty sick roster moves in FA and the draft to bring back even a small percentage of the fan base.
We have been losing and been dealing with this whole routine too much. "Great teacher blah blah blah." "Treats us like men blah blah."
The only move they can make is to bring a guy in with some sort of positive track record as a head coach. If it isn't BC, I'm not sure who it is...do they then interview Billick? Do they change direction to trying to get Marty out of retirement again? I'm not sure, but this unqualified coordinator talk sure isn't going to sell tickets or merchandise, and won't improve the team's image to free agents or television networks. They need to go balls to the wall here or lose millions.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

No more of this learning on the job crap. We have had it for the last 10 years. They all have set the team back. If we hire a coordinator then it's just the same old puppet/cheap routine. It's time for Ralph to pay and not the fans.

Cowher
Billick
Marty
Insert Bust Here