I Know I'm In the Minority- I Prefer Frazier to Grimm

[Midwesternbillsfan]

I am in the minority in that while I can envision some definite pluses and attributes that Grimm would bring to the Bills I don't believe that the one cited most frequently- his tough-mindedness- is tantamount to him being a wild success while conversely, Leslie Frazier's cool, calm disposition is necessarily going to do nothing but preserve the status quo since Dick Jauron seemingly had a similar demeanor. Technically, Grimm has been no more a head coach in this league than Frazier has been. And Frazier has held more responsibilites; both have been assistant head coaches (but are assistant head coaches) but Frazier has been a coordinator in two different locations in the league (Cincinnati and Minnesota) and Grimm has remained, albeit an effective one, an offensive line coach for Pittsburgh and now Arizona.

I actually prefer Frazier, and it isn't merely because he genuinely wants this job. There's some possible symmetrical beauty to the idea of the Bills being rejected alike by the 'bigwigs' (Gruden; Shanahan; Cowher) and the 'pee-ons' (possibly Grimm and Rivera; Schottenheimer Jr; to a lesser extent- but he is "just" a college coach- Harbaugh) and Frazier being finalists for jobs in St. Louis and Denver last year (Miami the year before that) and ultimately not being made the hire. But I don't really buy into that admittedly interesting juxtaposition. What I am starting to buy into is the notion that Leslie Frazier, whose name has been bantered about for a few years for a head coaching position much in the same way Tony Dungy's was as Vikings' defensive coordinator in the mid-90's before he was finally hired in Tampa Bay in 1996, taking advantage of the head coaching opportunity that finally officially presents itself (Dungy would have hired Frazier as Seahawks' head coach if Dungy had accepted last week the GM/president role w/the Seahawks, FWIW). And I can buy into Frazier being extraordinarily motivated with a gigantic chip on his shoulder w/the way in which he's been passed over for head coaching positions and w/the way he's been essentially used to appease the league-mandated rule that a minority must be interviewed. And well, he qualifies.

[Midwesternbillsfan]

The largest misconceptions that have to be debunked, it seems, for Bills' fans to get hind the notion of Frazier is A) the personality similarities to Dick Jauron and how that necessarily indicates that Frazier is going to fail. Truthfully, Frazier is no more Tony Dungy than he is Dick Jauron- the fact that both Frazier and Jauron are two seemingly stoic personalities who coach one-gap, Cover 2 defenses doesn't make them any more alike as leaders as men and developers of football players (Frazier HAS a stong reputation of developing talent; Jauron rarely did in Buffalo) any more than it makes Frazier alike to Tony Dungy (who, too, has an equanimous and relaxed personality and who also coaches the Cover 2; and at least Dungy- like Frazier- is African-American and a former defensive coordinator of the Vikings. So how Frazier is any more like Jauron than he's like Dungy is beyond my comprehension).

The second issue Frazier has w/winning over Buffalo fans is that many Bills' fans have grown weary of the Tampa 2 defense. Nix has already talked about his dismay for the smallish defense that we've run (229-lbs. Keith Ellison playing strongside LB'er, for example; 286-lbs. Spencer Johnson at DT). Nix and Frazier can work to make our front-seven more stout; no starting Vikings' LB'er is smaller than 242 pounds and the Colts also proved this year that you can keep a lighting quick Tampa 2 defense and still make it beefier; Indy ditched smallish DT's (like 257-lbs. Keyunta Dawson) and 220-lbs. weakside LB'ers (like Cato June and Freddie Kiaho) and still kept the fundamentals of a Cover 2: an opportunistic defense which causes more turnovers than most because its zone defense forces tight windows to make throws, a defense that's quicker than any and very fast to the ball, and a defense which minimizes red-zone scoring and scoring in general (the Bills' defense, even w/below-average talent and even without being able to generate a very effective pass-rush from their front-four, which the Cover 2 is really predicated upon, still managed to finish 16th in the NFL in scoring defense this year and to finish 14th in the NFL in 2008).

The Tampa 2 defense is certainly not my favorite defense but it can still be effective, even in 2009 (I won't mention the '02 Tampa Bay Buccaneers' all-time defensive greatness. Or even how great the Bears' NFC Conference-winning defense was in their Super Bowl run in '06): three of the seven teams that still run a Cover 2 defense (Colts; Panthers; Vikings) finished in the top-10 in scoring defense (Bills were- again- still in the top-half at 16th). Furthermore, the Bills were second in the NFL in interceptions and the Panthers were tied for 5th, and four of the seven Cover 2 teams forced at least 28 total turnovers on the season (Panthers: 37; Bills: 33; Buccaneers: 29; Bears: 28). The Tampa 2 defense isn't obsolete, even if right now it's not the most fashionable (these things are cyclical, you have to keep in mind; I remember at the turn of the millenium when the Bills and Steelers were the only teams still running a 34 defense). And now w/13 teams running the 34 defense (Redskins poised to become the league's fourteenth team), it might be easier than ever to draft and assemble the proper pieces that the Cover 2 defense demands.

[Midwesternbillsfan]

By the way: I want to pre-emptively cut off the "point" that surely is on its way about how Frazier is only good because of the personnel of the Vikings' defense: that just isn't really a very valid point; it certainly isn't a fair one. So the personnel of the Vikings' defense receives all the credit when it plays well but when they don't, Frazier as the defensive coordinator is solely culpable? Seems like textbook 'no-win' analysis. Seems like Frazier 'can't win for losing,' doesn't it? Frazier can't receive credit because of the talent but he can be cited when that same talent doesn't play well, is what some are saying.

So what Frazier's defense has talent? He used it, didn't he? And there's something profound and certain to be said for not squandering talent, Bill Sheridan style (former Giants' defensive coordinator- fired in favor of Perry Fewell). The Giants were 30th in the NFL in scoring defense because it effectively wasted the collective talent of Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, Matthias Kiwanuka, Fred Robbins, Barry Coefield, Michael Boley, Corey Webster, etc.

[Prov401]

To be honest, this is way too much to read.

However, I agree. I was never huge on Grimm. He's never called plays in his entire coaching career. He's a line coach. We aren't getting anybody with a ring, and I certainly would hate to have Billick. Right now, I see it as Frazier and Rivera as our possible next head coaches. And I have a strong suspicion that one of them will be Superbowl champions in a few weeks.

[zone]

After watching the game today I am certainly warming up to the Frazier idea (not that I have a choice).

[Nighthawk]

For the record...who has Frazier developed?

Allen - Traded for
Pat Williams - FA signing
Kevin Williams - Drafted and already a star before Frazier coached him
Winfield - FA signing

I'm just saying that you're giving him a little bit too much credit for things he was not there for..most of the pieces were already in place when he arrived. I'm not sure that he'll be a success or failure as a HC, but he really doesn't bring anything different to the table then Jauron did. He's a player's coach, he runs the Cover 2 and as you mentioned, he isn't emotional. The players on the Bills, IMO, need a stront, authority figure because most of them are soft players. I'm just not sure Frazier is the right fit here. I hope I'm wrong...I guess we'll see.

[homeslice5484]

Grimm is a offensive line coach, how ready is he to be a HC? Frazier is a DC, how ready is he?

They both are the Asst. Head Coach. Bobby April was also an Asst. Head Coach.

Out of the 3, I would say Frazier is much more prepared (playcalling, gameplanning, etc.) and respected around the league and I think he gets it by default.

However I do not want Frazier, but think we will be stuck with him

[Nighthawk]

Grimm is a offensive line coach, how ready is he to be a HC? Frazier is a DC, how ready is he?

They both are the Asst. Head Coach. Bobby April was also an Asst. Head Coach.

Out of the 3, I would say Frazier is much more prepared (playcalling, gameplanning, etc.) and respected around the league and I think he gets it by default.

I'm not particularly fond of either of them...but, I hope they get it right.

[Midwesternbillsfan]

For the record...who has Frazier developed?

Allen - Traded for
Pat Williams - FA signing
Kevin Williams - Drafted and already a star before Frazier coached him
Winfield - FA signing

I'm just saying that you're giving him a little bit too much credit for things he was not there for..most of the pieces were already in place when he arrived. I'm not sure that he'll be a success or failure as a HC, but he really doesn't bring anything different to the table then Jauron did. He's a player's coach, he runs the Cover 2 and as you mentioned, he isn't emotional. The players on the Bills, IMO, need a stront, authority figure because most of them are soft players. I'm just not sure Frazier is the right fit here. I hope I'm wrong...I guess we'll see.

I think Frazier's done a good job w/Chad Greenway. I'm a University of Iowa alum (graduated one year after Greenway), and I've followed his career very closely. Obviously, he was a mid-round 1st-round pick, but he really has become an even better football player than most probably expected. Frazier was hired in 2007 and there's at least a positive correlation in that fact and the fact that Greenway has become at least a fringe Pro Bowl player the last couple of seasons.

I think CB Cedric Griffin has made strikes under Frazier's tutelage, too. Nickelback Benny Sapp also went from being discarded in Kansas City to becoming a good 3rd cornerback in Minnesota.

DE Ray Edwards' career has really experienced a boon in three years w/Leslie Frazier. Some of that is due to natural development and a large part of that is due to Jared Allen's arrival in 2008. But there still is no denying that Frazier has at least superficially been impactful w/Edwards. Look at the strides, encapsulated in the stats, that Edwards made this year in particular.

[Nighthawk]

I think Frazier's done a good job w/Chad Greenway. I'm a University of Iowa alum (graduated one year after Greenway), and I've followed his career very closely. Obviously, he was a mid-round 1st-round pick, but he really has become an even better football player than most probably expected. Frazier was hired in 2007 and there's at least a positive correlation in that fact and the fact that Greenway has become at least a fringe Pro Bowl player the last couple of seasons.

I think CB Cedric Griffin has made strikes under Frazier's tutelage, too. Nickelback Benny Sapp also went from being discarded in Kansas City to becoming a good 3rd cornerback in Minnesota.

DE Ray Edwards' career has really experienced a boon in three years w/Leslie Frazier. Some of that is due to natural development and a large part of that is due to Jared Allen's arrival in 2008. But there still is no denying that Frazier has at least superficially been impactful w/Edwards. Look at the strides, encapsulated in the stats, that Edwards made this year in particular.

Ehh...average players at best and the Bills don't even have that level of talent on their defense.

[Commissioner]

Maybe our black players will behave and listen better to a black coach.

[Prov401]

Ehh...average players at best and the Bills don't even have that level of talent on their defense.

Ray Edwards is far from average. He is going to be an excellent player for years to come. He was the defensive all-star in the game today.

Other than him, I see where your argument holds water. I'm not tremendously high on Frazier. But I'm a realist, and I know it's now down to possibly 2-3 people for this job. Sad, but true. And we're all just going to have to accept the hire, and move on. I like the fact he blitzes a ton, and plays the 4-3. ANYTHING but the Cover 2, and I'm already happy.

[Nighthawk]

Ray Edwards is far from average. He is going to be an excellent player for years to come. He was the defensive all-star in the game today.

Other than him, I see where your argument holds water. I'm not tremendously high on Frazier. But I'm a realist, and I know it's now down to possibly 2-3 people for this job. Sad, but true. And we're all just going to have to accept the hire, and move on. I like the fact he blitzes a ton, and plays the 4-3. ANYTHING but the Cover 2, and I'm already happy.

I guess we'll have to see how it plays out...unfortunately, there is nothing we can do, but accept it.

[Syderick]

After watching the game today I am certainly warming up to the Frazier idea (not that I have a choice).

Exactly. Be nice to get Cowher or Dungy. At first I was questioning Frazier, but now i'm warming up the idea too.

[justasportsfan]

What worries me about Frazier is that he doesn't have any record of how he runs an offense. with Dick he sucked in Chicago and yet he brought that offense here and sucked too.

I am warming up to him though only because HE WANTS TO BE HERE!

I'm almost sure that with Grimm our O won't be as bad as Dicks O. We can always find a DC just like the Saints found Greghead. But if he doesn't want to be here, then Frazier it is.

[Slim]

What worries me about Frazier is that he doesn't have any record of how he runs an offense. with Dick he sucked in Chicago and yet he brought that offense here and sucked too.

I am warming up to him though only because HE WANTS TO BE HERE!

Word on the street is he would bring in Al Saunders as the OC. I also read a speculation article this morning by La Canfora saying he wouldn't be suprised if we contacted Martz for our OC opening.

[Michael82]

What worries me about Frazier is that he doesn't have any record of how he runs an offense. with Dick he sucked in Chicago and yet he brought that offense here and sucked too.

I am warming up to him though only because HE WANTS TO BE HERE!

I'm almost sure that with Grimm our O won't be as bad as Dicks O. We can always find a DC just like the Saints found Greghead. But if he doesn't want to be here, then Frazier it is.
He's rumored to have a good choice for his OC position when he came to his interview.


Frazier has been rumored to have a connection with Al Saunders, a longtime successful NFL offensive coordinator. The two never have worked together but have the same agent.
http://www.buffalonews.com/258/story/921445.html

[justasportsfan]

He's rumored to have a good choice for his OC position when he came to his interview.


http://www.buffalonews.com/258/story/921445.html

Getting warmer. :scratch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Saunders

[DraftBoy]

For the record...who has Frazier developed?

Allen - Traded for
Pat Williams - FA signing
Kevin Williams - Drafted and already a star before Frazier coached him
Winfield - FA signing

I'm just saying that you're giving him a little bit too much credit for things he was not there for..most of the pieces were already in place when he arrived. I'm not sure that he'll be a success or failure as a HC, but he really doesn't bring anything different to the table then Jauron did. He's a player's coach, he runs the Cover 2 and as you mentioned, he isn't emotional. The players on the Bills, IMO, need a stront, authority figure because most of them are soft players. I'm just not sure Frazier is the right fit here. I hope I'm wrong...I guess we'll see.

Anotine Bethea and Bob Sanders as well.

[Slim]

Anotine Bethea and Bob Sanders as well.

You could argue that Frazier groomed Kelvin Hayden in 05-06 as well.

[Syderick]

We switched to the Tampa 2 in 2006 because of the results of the 2005 season. "During the 2005 NFL season, the Buccaneers, still under defensive coordinator Kiffin, ranked first in the league in fewest total yards allowed, Smith's Bears ranked number two, and Dungy's Colts ranked eleventh".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_2