Williams, Winfield, Hargrove, and Greer. Nice work OBD.

[HHURRICANE]

All of these guys playing the NFC Championship game and than add Polian going to another Superbowl.

Ralph is a joke.

[BILLSROCK1212]

All of these guys playing the NFC Championship game and than add Polian going to another Superbowl.

Ralph is a joke.
AFC: leonhard...

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

lol i was thinking the same fricking thing

[EricStratton]

You can't keep everyone, it's just not how the NFL works.

[Slim]

I know big Pat, and he hated his time here. There was nothing we could have done to re-sign him. He HATED Bledsoe, and he hated our front office. He was a terrible locker room guy here.

[Mr. Pink]

Rob Johnson got a SB ring in Tampa...maybe we should have kept him too.

[YardRat]

90% of the board was down on Hargrove because of his off-field problems.

Including you, HH, even though you were torn up over it.

[IAG]

I agree with the poster.

[ArcticWildMan]

All of these guys playing the NFC Championship game and than add Polian going to another Superbowl.

Ralph is a joke.

Get over it. Williams didn't want to be here. Hargrove burned his bridges. Winfield wasn't the ball hawk that we needed at the time. Greer was the odd man out even though he did play well.

[ByrdsTheWord]

You can't keep everyone, it's just not how the NFL works.

Really?

[SeatownBillsFan21]

Well we could have tagged Winfeild and Greer but they would have been gone at some point Pat did want to be here and AH ran his course so it it what it is IMO

[ByrdsTheWord]

Well we could have tagged Winfeild and Greer but they would have been gone at some point Pat did want to be here and AH ran his course so it it what it is IMO

Greer wanted to be here too. Never shouldve let him go.

[billser]

You act as though these guys are the reason their teams are in the SB. Winfield has been a disappointed and the rest, with the exception of Pat Williams, are mediocre players. Who cares.

[SquishDaFish]

Your posts and threads are jokes

[kernowboy]

There is this thing called the salary cap.

Having gotten in cap hell under Butler, it was simply not possible to resign everyone especially those asking for huge salaries especially as the Bills at the time, had a lot of dead money on the books.

This was back in 2003, when we were still maxing out against the cap.

It really is basic maths in the case of Williams and Winfield, whilst although Greer was allowed to leave most teams would have felt a R1 draft pick could have stepped up.

[Dujek]

The only one of those guys I'd have really wanted to keep was Williams, and he didn't want to stay in Buffalo. McGee and McKelvin are better than Winfield and Greer, and Hargrove was completely self-destructive while here and had to go.

The FO have made plenty of mistakes, but none of those guys can be included in the list.

[Historian]

The only one I know of that didn't want to be here was Winfield's wife.

Pat Williams wasn't just a blow to the team, it was a blow to the entire community. On Christmas eve, he used to go down into the city and give 100 dollar bills to the homeless. He had a heart the size of an elephant, and it shows when you watch him every Sunday. I believe the Bills thought he was washed up. Of course, they thought the same thing about Ron McDole.

I know you can't keep everybody, however, you also can't keep letting your #1 draft picks walk ala Winfield.

This is one of the reasons we have been in the perpetual mediocrity mode.

I think the thread maker's point is valid: Wilson is a terrible decision maker. His worst was to hand the team off to Donahoe.

And everything else over the last 10 years stemms from that.

[Ebenezer]

Winfield was a UFA and could not be tagged. His wife did not want to be here and there was no way they were keeping him. Minnesota front loaded the contract with a $12million bonus that counted against the cap that year - it was not amoratized...that was a bitter pill that almost no NFL team could swallow with the cap at the time. It's ancient history folks...

Nobody wanted Hargrove here.

Pat Williams fled for the same exact money.

Greer could have been resigned...I don't know the specifics there.

[RockStar36]

McGahee played in the AFC Championship last year!!! OMG!!!! Nice job Bills!!!!

[OpIv37]

Hargrove was a problem. I don't blame obd for that one. The other 3 were definite mistakes.

[Pinkerton Security]

Greer wanted to be here too. Never shouldve let him go.

he is a pretty decent corner, but so are mckelvin, mcgee, florence and corner. we didnt need him.

[madness]

This is exactly what Nix was talking about. You don't pony up cash for big FA's if you can't pay to keep your own guys that are worth the money. You lock them down before they even get a chance to be a FA.

[Ebenezer]

Hargrove was a problem. I don't blame obd for that one. The other 3 were definite mistakes.

how were Winfield and Williams mistakes?? How do you keep players here that don't want to be here? Kidnap them? Come on.

[trapezeus]

players don't want to be here because the team sucks, not because buffalo the town is the issue.

If you give players the coaching, the money, and a chance to win, they'll stay.

So saying players didn't want to be here, 99% of the time is because the organization made them hate the team. not the area.

the team makes players hate them from showing that you can over perform and then not get paid for it (see: most of bills secondary, few 1st rounders who actually played well, probowl players). The team keeps players for name recognition even to the detriment of the team's overall performance (see: Bledsoe, losman). The team keeps a dud coach after a miserable break down against the easiest schedule (see: Jauron). The team pays lip service to change and then does zero to make change happen (see: nix and gailey)

this has nothing to do with the town of buffalo, but hte leadership of the buffalo bills. Sell the team and let them move it ralph. You blame us for all your shortcomings. The NFL owes us a team back if they move the Buffalo Wilsons.

[Pinkerton Security]

players don't want to be here because the team sucks, not because buffalo the town is the issue.

If you give players the coaching, the money, and a chance to win, they'll stay.

So saying players didn't want to be here, 99% of the time is because the organization made them hate the team. not the area.

the team makes players hate them from showing that you can over perform and then not get paid for it (see: most of bills secondary, few 1st rounders who actually played well, probowl players). The team keeps players for name recognition even to the detriment of the team's overall performance (see: Bledsoe, losman). The team keeps a dud coach after a miserable break down against the easiest schedule (see: Jauron). The team pays lip service to change and then does zero to make change happen (see: nix and gailey)

this has nothing to do with the town of buffalo, but hte leadership of the buffalo bills. Sell the team and let them move it ralph. You blame us for all your shortcomings. The NFL owes us a team back if they move the Buffalo Wilsons.

i think the town and the weather also have something to do with it. dont get me wrong, im all about NY, but if you were a FA (not from Bflo originally) and had the choice between a mediocre team in Buffalo and a mediocre team in Cali, which would you choose?

[Ebenezer]

Sell the team and let them move it ralph. You blame us for all your shortcomings. The NFL owes us a team back if they move the Buffalo Wilsons.

what are you snorting?? the NFL owes nobody anything...and if the Bills move Buffalo will never have a team again...

[trapezeus]

what are you snorting?? the NFL owes nobody anything...and if the Bills move Buffalo will never have a team again...

i know, but that's how i feel. fan bases that show up for every game no matter what made the NFL what it is today. that's what gave them huge contracts adn suite sales.

and in all those big market teams, you'd be surprised how many little market fans root on their home teams.

The NFL, if objective, knows they need certain markets to keep the NFL this huge, "i need tow atch every game" phenom.

They could be delusional and just expect to be the premier american sport just beacuse. but that's what sunk baseball and that's what sunk the 90's NBA.

You chase after potential/modelled profits against actual profits, you may find yourself in a very bad situation.

If the NFL did it right, they'd sell the bills to LA for a killer asking price. Then hook buffalo up with a team with local ownership at a discounted price. Then you make the huge mark up off the bills and you get an additional $500-600MM with no new stadium. Fans remain happy and the new team just continues to milk $25-50MM after debt payment on the buffalo franchise.

They did it to perfection with cleveland/baltimore. They should run their magic again.

[RockStar36]

what are you snorting?? the NFL owes nobody anything...and if the Bills move Buffalo will never have a team again...

I totally disagree.

Just like Cleveland, the NFL would bring it back to Buffalo for sure.

[OpIv37]

how were Winfield and Williams mistakes?? How do you keep players here that don't want to be here? Kidnap them? Come on.
It's the fo's job to keep players here and make Buffalo a place where players want to play. I don't know why you people are so willing to let the fo off thee hook for creating an undesirable environment.

[RockStar36]

It's the fo's job to keep players here and make Buffalo a place where players want to play. I don't know why you people are so willing to let the fo off thee hook for creating an undesirable environment.

It's not letting them off the hook, at least in my case, but just stating that FA is part of the game and this is looking way too much into it.

Last time I checked, Brees signed in New Orleans after walking away from SD in free agency.

[chernobylwraiths]

I totally disagree.

Just like Cleveland, the NFL would bring it back to Buffalo for sure.

Don't forget Houston.

Virtually every city the NFL moved out of, they moved back into. St. Louis, Baltimore, even Oakland.

Move Jacksonville if any team. Nice weather and they STILL don't support the team.

[bigbub2352]

i think a better front office recognizes that you dont make the Mckelvin pick and u sign a budding prime player u devloped in Greer who is making plays for a superbowl team now, rather than draft Mckelvin at 12 and wait till he gets into his prime if he ever does
or even better give a contract ext to McGee who is not worth the money due to his oft injured career and lack of INTs, Greer took 2 to the house last yr is that how many Mcgee has taken to the house in his entire career?

Just saying u pay Greer and not take Mckelvin last yr and draft Dline or Oline or a stud LBer and you are much better off,

Now we are waiting to see if McKelvin is a bust and to see if Mcgee can play the last parts of his contract due to the fact he is 30 next yr i believe
so that will leave us with 2 holes at CB again if neither work out, or u could have signed Greer and still gave McGee his ext and not taken Mckelvin at all and solidified much more glaring needs

look at it from a front office perspective not a fan

we made a mistake in taking Mckelvin and resigning Greer, u could find a CB thru the whole draft every year. and pick up a vet like Florence almost every year

[Ebenezer]

It's the fo's job to keep players here and make Buffalo a place where players want to play. I don't know why you people are so willing to let the fo off thee hook for creating an undesirable environment.


it's the FO's responsibility to make a player's family happy how? come on. is it your employer's responsibility to make your town look great? hardly.

[ArcticWildMan]

Rebuild the Bills into a winning team and players will want to stay/play here. It's not rocket science.

[Ebenezer]

Rebuild the Bills into a winning team and players will want to stay/play here. It's not rocket science.


agree to a point...there have been plenty of Bills, during the good times and bad, that don't want to be here longer than they have to...it's not like the Sabres where former players want to live here.

[ArcticWildMan]

agree to a point...there have been plenty of Bills, during the good times and bad, that don't want to be here longer than they have to...it's not like the Sabres where former players want to live here.


True, but it wouldn't be the revolving door that it is now.

[Ebenezer]

True, but it wouldn't be the revolving door that it is now.

my point is still valid...an employer can't make you love the environment.

[ArcticWildMan]

my point is still valid...an employer can't make you love the environment.

True but tell me what a city like Indianapolis or Pittsburgh has going for it? Neither are exactly hot beds of society (some would even call them armpits) yet they have found a way to field very good teams with great players.

[Ebenezer]

True but tell me what a city like Indianapolis or Pittsburgh has going for it? Neither are exactly hot beds of society (some would even call them armpits) yet they have found a way to field very good teams with great players.

sure winning tradition helps...but Pitts has really turned it around as a city...Buffalo hasn't. Indi? no clue, never been there. it is still not the employer's responsibility - that is the point the Op was making.

[YardRat]

the team makes players hate them from showing that you can over perform and then not get paid for it (see: most of bills secondary, few 1st rounders who actually played well, probowl players).

Or under perform and resign for a motherload (See Kelsay and Schobel-the highest paid player in team history)


The team keeps players for name recognition even to the detriment of the team's overall performance (see: Bledsoe, losman).

But gets blasted on the other end, for NOT bringing in 'name' players and coaches.


The team keeps a dud coach after a miserable break down against the easiest schedule (see: Jauron).

Got nothin' for this...true.


The team pays lip service to change and then does zero to make change happen (see: nix and gailey)

Like it or not, Nix = change for the front office (1 yr current service, and a real talent evaluator). Gailey = change, and actually what Nix said he was looking for almost to a T. Almost every assistant will be different = change. John Guy gone = change.

[Goobylal]

I hadn't heard the stuff about Pat Williams wanting to leave. I guess that was mostly TD's fault.

Hargrove got suspended and into legal trouble, and that ended his time in Buffalo. Not that he was a major player for the Bills before being let-go.

Winfield as Eb said was given a crazy roster bonus and was overpaid for his talent level.

Greer has missed 13 games the past 2 years. The Bills did well picking-up Drayton Florence for about half the cost.

[OpIv37]

it's the FO's responsibility to make a player's family happy how? come on. is it your employer's responsibility to make your town look great? hardly.
This town stuff is such bs. The players are in town for four months out of the year, maybe 5, over a five year deal. It's not a huge commitment. And it's a cop out- the reason they don't want to be in Buffalo is the TEAM, not the town. Minnesota is just as wintry and low-key as Buffalo.

[Dr. Lecter]

Meh. I hated losing Williams and Winfield.

Greer is a solid player on a very good team. McKelvin and McGee are better and I think Florence is just as good at a much lower price.

Hargrove?

Really? You are complaining about a guy they did not sign that had been suspended for a year and could not, at that time, enter NYS without beign arrested because he skipped out on his community service?

Really?

*****ing about Hargrove is *****ing just to *****.

[Ebenezer]

This town stuff is such bs. The players are in town for four months out of the year, maybe 5, over a five year deal. It's not a huge commitment. And it's a cop out- the reason they don't want to be in Buffalo is the TEAM, not the town. Minnesota is just as wintry and low-key as Buffalo.


you are the one who said Buffalo...now it's BS?



It's the fo's job to keep players here and make Buffalo a place where players want to play.

[Griff]

HH you're getting boring, find a new hobby.

[Dying_-2-_Live]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2009/insider/news/story?id=4856593&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl%2fplayoffs%2f2009%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d4856593

[OpIv37]

you are the one who said Buffalo...now it's BS?

Poor wording- I should have said that it's the FO's job to have an organizational culture that is appealing to potential employees (ie, players), but I was on my phone so I was trying to keep it short.

The point is that, with the exception of McGahee, it was the organization and not the city itself that drove the players away. I could see a player leaving Buffalo and going to New York or Philly because it's higher profile, and I could see a player leaving New York and going to Buffalo or Minnesota because it's more low-key. But leaving one relatively small, very cold city to go to another relatively small, very cold city makes zero sense, unless the organization in one of those cities is significantly better....

[Ebenezer]

Poor wording- I should have said that it's the FO's job to have an organizational culture that is appealing to potential employees (ie, players), but I was on my phone so I was trying to keep it short.

The point is that, with the exception of McGahee, it was the organization and not the city itself that drove the players away. I could see a player leaving Buffalo and going to New York or Philly because it's higher profile, and I could see a player leaving New York and going to Buffalo or Minnesota because it's more low-key. But leaving one relatively small, very cold city to go to another relatively small, very cold city makes zero sense, unless the organization in one of those cities is significantly better....
ok...point made about the city...

the Winfield contract was a strange beast...it was so front loaded that very few teams could offer him that...it was ironic it happened to be the Vikings. They had the cap room to do it. Wouldn't you pick Minnesota when they offered you a $12 mil signing bonus that nobody else could match? Hell, most people would have picked Yellow Knife at that point.

[ByrdsTheWord]

Meh. I hated losing Williams and Winfield.

Greer is a solid player on a very good team. McKelvin and McGee are better and I think Florence is just as good at a much lower price.

Hargrove?

Really? You are complaining about a guy they did not sign that had been suspended for a year and could not, at that time, enter NYS without beign arrested because he skipped out on his community service?

Really?

*****ing about Hargrove is *****ing just to *****.

McKelvin's better than Greer at CB? You sure about that?

[Dr. Lecter]

McKelvin's better than Greer at CB? You sure about that?

He will be and has a much, much higher ceiling.

[Ebenezer]

He will be and has a much, much higher ceiling.
hopefully his ceiling has some beams...so far he isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[feldspar]

The Bills have one of the best secondaries in the league right now, so losing Winfield and Greer, while they are good, doesn't bother me so much...although it bothers me a little, especially Winfield. The problem is that we had to replace these guys with draft picks etc, really. Picks we could have used elsewhere. The Bills' current secondary is solid. May as well have a problem giving up Nate Clements without getting anything in return while you are at it.

Hargrove isn't any kind of great player.

Pat Williams is the one I wish we kept the most, since he is the guy we could have used the most all these years. I can still remember him saying that Buffalo is stupid and "they don't know what they are doing up there" when the Bills wouldn't give him the 5 million he wanted...something like 5 million per year at the time. Giving him up like we did was amongst the stupidest moves by the Bills organization this decade. I knew he was right, so I didn't mind it when he said that.