Someone in the know explain this to me

[Don't Panic]

3-4 question here...

I know that making the switch from DE in a 4-3 to OLB in a 3-4 is a difficult one, and that guys like Denney and Kelsay would have a hard time with the it, but I'm really trying to figure out what the main differences are between a 4-3 (C2 at that) DT and a 3-4 DE are. I know that DEs in a 3-4 need to be solid run stoppers as well as occasional pass rushers, so there is the need for more size, but it seems that the majority of our DTs fit the bill. They may not be anywhere dominant at it, but sufficient, which is what we'll need to smoothly transition to a 3-4. And considering the C2 (T2... whatever) DT position requires both pass rush and run stop ability, it seems they may be a fit there short-term (or long-term possibly). So who of the following can/can't play DE in a 3-4, and most importantly, why? I list them with their weight, since from what I've read you need to be in the 285-290 range at a minimum to play DE in a 3-4, as well as with my thoughts.

Kyle Williams, 306. Good penetration as a pass rusher and definitely big enough to play the position. May have trouble when taking on two linemen though.

John McCargo, 307. I know... failure of epic proportions. But if Nix and Gailey see something in him worth taking another chance on, he may be one to benefit the greatest from the change in leadership. Definitely has the size to play the position.

Spencer Johnson, 286. Seems to be right in the mold of a 3-4 DE.

I think Stroud would be best suited to continue in a 4-3. Maybe we could get a 4th for him, if the change in scheme does in fact take place. Am I off on this? What am I missing about the difference between these two position types?

[Coach Sal]

Some god stuff from Pat Kirwan on 3-4 vs. 4-3, as far as rushing the passer. It won't answer all your questions directly, but will help:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80d6974b&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

[Mahdi]

When you talk about a DE in a 3-4 you are looking for a specific kind of player with a specific size.

Typically, you want a player near 300 pounds and 6'4 or taller. You can't have short guys playing 3-4 DE because part of their job is to get in the face of the QB and block throwing lanes since they are not the main pass rushers. They also have to be stout against the run and have the ability to battle inside without giving up ground.

The only 2 DTs on our roster that can make the switch IMO are Stroud and Sp. Johnson. Even Johnson is a stretch because he is only 6'3 and is about 286 but I think he can do the job temporarily if we don't address the position in FA or draft. Kyle Williams is too short to play DE in a 3-4 and not stout enough against the run.

For the NT position we currently dont have a player that can handle that role. Some have suggested Stroud but IMO he is too tall to do it and is not a penetrator like Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys. To be a 3-4 NT you need to be a very stout player and usually it helps if you are 6'3 or shorter in order to win the leverage battle and anchor down against double teams.


Kelsay and Denney are useless if we switch to a 3-4, Schobel might be effective as a 2 down OLB. I dont see him being much of a pass rusher out of the OLB spot.

Back to the NT issue, we currently have Lonnie Harvery on the roster who was a typical 3-4 NT prospect coming out of college, he is 6'3 346 and has all the qualities you look for in a NT. Nix most likely had a lot to do with signing him off the street and re-signing him to a futures contract last week. Another idea is if John McCargo can actually stay healthy and commit himself to the weight room he could do a nice job as a NT. He would need to add about 10-15 pounds but whenever he plays he plays well and has a knack of getting into the backfield. He could be a nice option as a NT on passing downs.

[madness]

Some god stuff from Pat Kirwan on 3-4 vs. 4-3, as far as rushing the passer. It won't answer all your questions directly, but will help:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80d6974b&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

It's definitely a good read but I'm not sure Kirwan has reached god status just yet. :::

[Don't Panic]

When you talk about a DE in a 3-4 you are looking for a specific kind of player with a specific size.

Typically, you want a player near 300 pounds and 6'4 or taller. You can't have short guys playing 3-4 DE because part of their job is to get in the face of the QB and block throwing lanes since they are not the main pass rushers. They also have to be stout against the run and have the ability to battle inside without giving up ground.

The only 2 DTs on our roster that can make the switch IMO are Stroud and Sp. Johnson. Even Johnson is a stretch because he is only 6'3 and is about 286 but I think he can do the job temporarily if we don't address the position in FA or draft. Kyle Williams is too short to play DE in a 3-4 and not stout enough against the run.

For the NT position we currently dont have a player that can handle that role. Some have suggested Stroud but IMO he is too tall to do it and is not a penetrator like Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys. To be a 3-4 NT you need to be a very stout player and usually it helps if you are 6'3 or shorter in order to win the leverage battle and anchor down against double teams.


Kelsay and Denney are useless if we switch to a 3-4, Schobel might be effective as a 2 down OLB. I dont see him being much of a pass rusher out of the OLB spot.

Back to the NT issue, we currently have Lonnie Harvery on the roster who was a typical 3-4 NT prospect coming out of college, he is 6'3 346 and has all the qualities you look for in a NT. Nix most likely had a lot to do with signing him off the street and re-signing him to a futures contract last week. Another idea is if John McCargo can actually stay healthy and commit himself to the weight room he could do a nice job as a NT. He would need to add about 10-15 pounds but whenever he plays he plays well and has a knack of getting into the backfield. He could be a nice option as a NT on passing downs.

Thanks Mahdi... I figured it would come down to height. Maybe Williams would serve as a stop-gap. We'll see with McCargo...

The NT thing I knew was going to need changing (although the Harvey note is worth considering), but I figureed if we could get the DE situation worked out the transition may be smoother. Keep in mind I haven't even brought up the LBers here.

[Mahdi]

Thanks Mahdi... I figured it would come down to height. Maybe Williams would serve as a stop-gap. We'll see with McCargo...

The NT thing I knew was going to need changing (although the Harvey note is worth considering), but I figureed if we could get the DE situation worked out the transition may be smoother. Keep in mind I haven't even brought up the LBers here.
I would say we have 3 of 4 LBs already --- Maybin --- Poz --- Mitchell --- Draft Pick

[bflojohn]

The 3-4 in Kansas City was started last offseason, and the pick of DE Tyson Jackson is a clue about how to get prototype athletes for the positions. The NT is key to having a stout 3-4 because he is supposed to demand 2 or even 3 blockers in the middle. The pick, last draft by the Chiefs, addressed the LDE in their scheme. The assumption is that Jackson could play the 5 technique on the outside, and provide EXACTLY what the position demands. The 5 technique requires a player to be strong against the run, both inside and out, and have the strength and hopefully pass rush ability all wrapped into one young player. That's why draft "experts" were floored when he went #3 last year. However, it makes perfect sense to grab a DE that can do ALL he needs to do, and get the other positons along the way. Personally, I thought they could have traded down, a bit, to select Jackson, but maybe the media scouts were all wrong! The DE this year who has the size to handle the 5-technique MIGHT be Carlos Dunlap from Florida. I believe he's 6' 4" and weighs in the 290 range. Actually, he may be better at RDE in a 3-4 because he is a superior pass rusher to Tyson Jackson, IMO. By the way, the Packers made the conversion last year as well and ended up with B.J. Raji at NT and Clay Matthews at OLB, not too shabby, if you ask me!!