Is Poz Mediocre?

[PECKERWOOD]

There are roughly 45 starters at inside linebacker in the NFL due to multiple teams running the 3-4, if Posluszny is mediocre there should be roughly 23 inside linebackers who are better than him, please name these players.

:tap:

[BertSquirtgum]

i think he is a good linebacker for sure but nothing special in my opinion.

[alohabillsfan]

POZ avg at best

[SirMcGee]

He is an AVERAGE LB.

- David Harris, Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, Karlos Dansby, London Fletcher, Jonathon Vilma, Lofa Tatupu, Jon Beason, Nick Barnett, Gary Brackett, James Farrior, Curtis Lofton, Jarod Mayo, Kirk Morrison, Demeco Ryans, Bart Scott, Lawrence Timmons, Brian Urlacher, Barrett Rudd...I consider these guys all just as good and better than Poz. Like i said. AVERAGE. He's in the middle of the bunch.

[G Wolly]

In terms of league-wide LBs yes, very average but he knows what he's doing.

In terms of team, he's at the top because we don't have much.

[YardRat]

Lewis, Farrior, Timmons, Fox, Ryans, Brackett, Durant, Tulloch, Ayodele, Mayo, Guyton, Scott, Harris, Davis, Williams, Mays, Williams, Morrison, Cooper, Siler, Urlacher, Hillenmeyer, Foote, Hawk, Barnett, Lofton, Beason, Vilma, Ruud, James, Brooking, Carpenter, Goff, Trotter, Fletcher, Dansby, Willis, Hawthorne, Laurinitis.

[PECKERWOOD]

Tulloch, Guyton, Carpenter, Brooking, Trotter, Hawthorne, Durant, Lofton, Siler, Fox, Cooper & Farrior???

Just the notable ones listed, some of you are clearly grasping at straws to reach the quota. Farrior had a better career, but he is on his last legs, same with Trotter and same with Brooking. Durant, Hawthorne, Siler, Fox & Tulloch are just absolute jokes to list off as being better than Poz.

[PECKERWOOD]

He is an AVERAGE LB.

- David Harris, Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, Karlos Dansby, London Fletcher, Jonathon Vilma, Lofa Tatupu, Jon Beason, Nick Barnett, Gary Brackett, James Farrior, Curtis Lofton, Jarod Mayo, Kirk Morrison, Demeco Ryans, Bart Scott, Lawrence Timmons, Brian Urlacher, Barrett Rudd...I consider these guys all just as good and better than Poz. Like i said. AVERAGE. He's in the middle of the bunch.

Even if I agreed with every one of your listings, that's still only 19 linebackers, thus making Poz slightly above average at the least. (I would take Poz over Brackett, Farrior, Lofton & Morrison) The only reason why you listed Brackett is because he just got a huge extension, Polian overpaid for him big time, he wouldn't have gotten that money anywhere else.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

IMO he is average on the fact he can't stay healthy.

[PECKERWOOD]

IMO he is average on the fact he can't stay healthy.

I really think that if he could stay healthy for an entire year, he would be considered a top 10 linebacker in the NFL. He will never crack the top 5 because he isn't an elite athlete, but his instincts are on par with the best in the league, he is a turnover machine and is a solid tackler.

[YardRat]

Tulloch, Guyton, Carpenter, Brooking, Trotter, Hawthorne, Durant, Lofton, Siler, Fox, Cooper & Farrior???

Just the notable ones listed, some of you are clearly grasping at straws to reach the quota. Farrior had a better career, but he is on his last legs, same with Trotter and same with Brooking. Durant, Hawthorne, Siler, Fox & Tulloch are just absolute jokes to list off as being better than Poz.

Didn't just reach the quota....blew it out of the ****ing water.

[PECKERWOOD]

Didn't just reach the quota....blew it out of the ****ing water.

Not really, look at Tulloch (http://www.nfl.com/players/stephentulloch/profile?id=TUL394525) for example.. That's one of the linebackers you listed, Poz has made 50 more tackles plus 8 more turnovers than him in the last 2 years, that's a poor choice.

[SirMcGee]

Even if I agreed with every one of your listings, that's still only 19 linebackers, thus making Poz slightly above average at the least. (I would take Poz over Brackett, Farrior, Lofton & Morrison) The only reason why you listed Brackett is because he just got a huge extension, Polian overpaid for him big time, he wouldn't have gotten that money anywhere else.

You said to name 23. I named 19. You think those 4 names i didnt list really make a difference between being average? Get a clue.

[SirMcGee]

Even if I agreed with every one of your listings, that's still only 19 linebackers, thus making Poz slightly above average at the least. (I would take Poz over Brackett, Farrior, Lofton & Morrison) The only reason why you listed Brackett is because he just got a huge extension, Polian overpaid for him big time, he wouldn't have gotten that money anywhere else.

I listed EVERYBODY up there because they performed just as well as Poz or if not BETTER.

Farrior had 235 tackles, 6 and a half sacks, in the last 2 years. Poz had 210 tackles, and 1 sack. If you say Farrior is on the DOWNSIDE of his career, then the OLD man is STILL better than Poz.

[PECKERWOOD]

I listed EVERYBODY up there because they performed just as well as Poz or if not BETTER.

Farrior had 235 tackles, 6 and a half sacks, in the last 2 years. Poz had 210 tackles, and 1 sack. If you say Farrior is on the DOWNSIDE of his career, then the OLD man is STILL better than Poz.

I wonder why you didn't include forced fumbles and interceptions to your stat list too? Is it because Posluszny created 5 more turnovers than Farrior? Turnovers are the most important statistic for a defender, that's the bottom line.

[PECKERWOOD]

You said to name 23. I named 19. You think those 4 names i didnt list really make a difference between being average? Get a clue.

It's a number game, it isn't my fault you fail at grade school mathematics.

[PECKERWOOD]

Poz is in the top 15, I'd put the following ahead of him:

1.) Ray Lewis
2.) David Harris
3.) Bart Scott
4.) Patrick Willis
5.) Jon Beason
6.) Jon Vilma
7.) Lawrence Timmons
8.) Demeco Ryans
9.) Karlos Dansby
10.) Brian Urlacher
11.) Barrett Ruud
12.) London Fletcher
13.) Paul Posluszny

He is a top 15 inside linebacker in this league, he actually outproduced Lofa Tatupu if you compare their first two consecutive seasons played.

[Luisito23]

He's just OK at this point...I think he will improve though, and I hope he can stay healthy.

[The Spaz]

It's funny how a lot of people bashed Fletcher when he was here and now they rate him ahead of Poz.

[PECKERWOOD]

It's funny how a lot of people bashed Fletcher when he was here and now they rate him ahead of Poz.
His stats cannot be argued, but I would take Poz ahead of Fletcher too, but I rate him ahead of Poz on my list purely because of the critique I will face if I do not do so, same could also be said for Bart Scott, I'd take Posluszny over both overrated players.

[YardRat]

Not really, look at Tulloch (http://www.nfl.com/players/stephentulloch/profile?id=TUL394525) for example.. That's one of the linebackers you listed, Poz has made 50 more tackles plus 8 more turnovers than him in the last 2 years, that's a poor choice.

You might want to double-check your tackle totals....

[SirMcGee]

I wonder why you didn't include forced fumbles and interceptions to your stat list too? Is it because Posluszny created 5 more turnovers than Farrior? Turnovers are the most important statistic for a defender, that's the bottom line.

Considering that Farrior plays next to James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons and Lamar Woodley, he doesnt need to be doing ALL the work. The fact that he produces ALL those tackles and sacks while playing with those guys says something.

Wrong again.

[SirMcGee]

It's funny how a lot of people bashed Fletcher when he was here and now they rate him ahead of Poz.

I NEVER bashed Fletcher. He's by far the most underrated LB in NFL HISTORY.

[SirMcGee]

Poz is in the top 15, I'd put the following ahead of him:

1.) Ray Lewis
2.) David Harris
3.) Bart Scott
4.) Patrick Willis
5.) Jon Beason
6.) Jon Vilma
7.) Lawrence Timmons
8.) Demeco Ryans
9.) Karlos Dansby
10.) Brian Urlacher
11.) Barrett Ruud
12.) London Fletcher
13.) Paul Posluszny

He is a top 15 inside linebacker in this league, he actually outproduced Lofa Tatupu if you compare their first two consecutive seasons played.

How so? Poz had 247 tackles in 3 years. Lofa had 226 in his first 2 years. I suggest you go back to school and learn some more arithmetic. Lofa's first 2 years. 226 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 4 INT and 2 forced fumbles. Poz first 3 years...247 tackles, 1 sack, 4 INT, 4 FF.

Might want to rethink your math again.

You clearly demonstrated that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Slim]

How so? Poz had 247 tackles in 3 years. Lofa had 226 in his first 2 years. I suggest you go back to school and learn some more arithmetic. Lofa's first 2 years. 226 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 4 INT and 2 forced fumbles. Poz first 3 years...247 tackles, 1 sack, 4 INT, 4 FF.

Might want to rethink your math again.

To be fair POZ missed A LOT of games due to injury.

[SirMcGee]

To be fair POZ missed A LOT of games due to injury.

Don't use that as an excuse. in 3 years Poz has played 31 games. In Lofa's first 2 season he's played 32 games so its a fair comparison. Don't try to make excuses for him.

To be fair, i compared Poz's first 3 seasons against Lofa's first 2 seasons. Lofa's better when healthy.

[Philagape]

Tackles are one of the most overrated stats.
WHERE ARE THOSE TACKLES MADE? I've seen many Poz tackles from behind after at least a 5-yard gain.

I keep hearing people say Poz isn't that bad, Whitner isn't that bad, Kyle Williams isn't that bad, blah, blah, blah ..... Then why did the Bills have the worst run defense in the league??? It must be some kind of miracle!
As long as that's the case, NOBODY on this defense is more than mediocre.

[SABURZFAN]

It's funny how a lot of people bashed Fletcher when he was here and now they rate him ahead of Poz.


he did a helluva job when he was in Buffalo. i wish they never let him go but it's understandable when The Old Fart didn't want to part with any money to re-sign him.

[PECKERWOOD]

How so? Poz had 247 tackles in 3 years. Lofa had 226 in his first 2 years. I suggest you go back to school and learn some more arithmetic. Lofa's first 2 years. 226 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 4 INT and 2 forced fumbles. Poz first 3 years...247 tackles, 1 sack, 4 INT, 4 FF.

Might want to rethink your math again.

You clearly demonstrated that you have no idea what you're talking about.
So Poz had more tackles and more turnovers than Lofa Tatupu did in the same amount of games.. Okay, you may want to rethink your logic. You're on the wrong side of the argument here, you're partaking in a grade school debate by insulting me because your argument can't hold up on it's own. Your stats don't even help your argument, even when you twist them around, if we compare the stats from the last 2 seasons:

Posluszny: 220 tackles, 1.0 sack, 10 PDef, 4 INTs, 4 FFs

Tatupu: 126 tackles, 1.0 sack, 6 PDef, 1 INT, 1 FF


Don't give me the injury excuse either, but hey, I'm just applying the same standards that you applied to others here.

[PECKERWOOD]

Considering that Farrior plays next to James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons and Lamar Woodley, he doesnt need to be doing ALL the work. The fact that he produces ALL those tackles and sacks while playing with those guys says something.

Wrong again.

Yet, other linebackers on the list such as: Patrick Willis, David Harris, Demeco Ryans & Brian Urlacher continue to put up big time numbers even with a strong supporting cast. Nice try, Mr. Wrong.

[buffalobillsfan95]

i think poz has the potential to be great but he needs to be healthy and get rid of his brick hands

[JCBills]

He is an AVERAGE LB.

- David Harris, Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, Karlos Dansby, London Fletcher, Jonathon Vilma, Lofa Tatupu, Jon Beason, Nick Barnett, Gary Brackett, James Farrior, Curtis Lofton, Jarod Mayo, Kirk Morrison, Demeco Ryans, Bart Scott, Lawrence Timmons, Brian Urlacher, Barrett Rudd...I consider these guys all just as good and better than Poz. Like i said. AVERAGE. He's in the middle of the bunch.

Mayo is the most overrated ILB in the NFL. His average yds allowed when making a tackle as a rookie was over 5, someone did a writeup about it on ESPN.com

Bold and underlined is the problem with people's view of Poz. The Bills have failed for a decade, people are mad. However, if people dropped their rage, and actually looked at Poz with some perspective, and perhaps metrics to back any knocking of of a player, they would see he's near the top of the pack.

[JCBills]

i think poz has the potential to be great but he needs to be healthy and get rid of his brick hands

He was tied for 1st among ILBs for INTs.

[JCBills]

ILB total metric values:

1. P. Willis
2. R. Lewis
3. N. Barnett
4. P. Posluszny
5. E. Henderson

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=ILB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=60&numgames=1

Now most Poz haters will reject this because it destroys their view, but that actually places him as the best 4-3 MLB in 2009. He was 2nd among 4-3 MLBs in 2008 (Fletcher was 1st)

Something else to back those metrics:

David Hawthorne quietly had a monster year, he ranked 2nd in 2009 among 4-3 MLBs and 7th among all ILBs in Tatupu's absence. So good that the Seahawks GM wants 3-4 packages to be installed to get both Tatupu and Hawthorne on the field at the same time.

[JCBills]

Tackles are one of the most overrated stats.
WHERE ARE THOSE TACKLES MADE? I've seen many Poz tackles from behind after at least a 5-yard gain.

I keep hearing people say Poz isn't that bad, Whitner isn't that bad, Kyle Williams isn't that bad, blah, blah, blah ..... Then why did the Bills have the worst run defense in the league??? It must be some kind of miracle!
As long as that's the case, NOBODY on this defense is more than mediocre.

In 2008, Poz's average yds allowed when making a tackle was just over 3, he was in the top 10. If my comp didn't have to be reformatted a week ago I'd still have the link.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

Poz can't get through blocks. He gets swallowed up.

[SaviorEdwards]

Poz couldn't hold fletchers jock strap. We have seriously regressed at the MLB since fletch has left. Fletcher was great, Poz is........Meh.

[Bravo82]

Poz couldn't hold fletchers jock strap. We have seriously regressed at the MLB since fletch has left. Fletcher was great, Poz is........Meh.

POS is a pretty solid player in my guestimation. However I still think the addition of Thaddeus "whose ur daddy" Gibson would make a solid addition in the draft and would take some weight off of POS's shoulders IMHO :clap:

[JCBills]

Poz couldn't hold fletchers jock strap. We have seriously regressed at the MLB since fletch has left. Fletcher was great, Poz is........Meh.

Lol I seriously love how people just continue to ignore fact.

Everyone knows that slanted views are always more accurate than unbiased statistical evaluation.

[JCBills]

POS is a pretty solid player in my guestimation. However I still think the addition of Thaddeus "whose ur daddy" Gibson would make a solid addition in the draft and would take some weight off of POS's shoulders IMHO :clap:

Gibson is an undersized 3-4 ROLB. We already have one of those.

[SaviorEdwards]

Lol I seriously love how people just continue to ignore fact.

Everyone knows that slanted views are always more accurate than unbiased statistical evaluation.
I love how P.O.S. got steamrolled by Chad Pennington.

[Night Train]

Let's look at it another way.

Whether by FA or Draft day, we need anothe 2-3 ILB's minimum , since Mitchell and Poz are no strangers to IR.

Someone is talking about Raiders MLB/ILB Kirk Morrison in another thread. He was just tendered in the 3rd round and could be had cheaply in a trade. I'd go after someone like him quickly, since he's a pretty good football player.

[YardRat]

ILB total metric values:

1. P. Willis
2. R. Lewis
3. N. Barnett
4. P. Posluszny
5. E. Henderson

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=ILB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=60&numgames=1

Now most Poz haters will reject this because it destroys their view, but that actually places him as the best 4-3 MLB in 2009. He was 2nd among 4-3 MLBs in 2008 (Fletcher was 1st)

Something else to back those metrics:

David Hawthorne quietly had a monster year, he ranked 2nd in 2009 among 4-3 MLBs and 7th among all ILBs in Tatupu's absence. So good that the Seahawks GM wants 3-4 packages to be installed to get both Tatupu and Hawthorne on the field at the same time.
Instead of using 60% snaps as the criteria, use All and he drops down to seventh. Use 75% and he drops off the list completely.

Nice job manipulating the numbers to portray the most positive result, though.

[SABURZFAN]

Instead of using 60% snaps as the criteria, use All and he drops down to seventh. Use 75% and he drops off the list completely.

Nice job manipulating the numbers to portray the most positive result, though.


:chuckle:

[psubills62]

Instead of using 60% snaps as the criteria, use All and he drops down to seventh. Use 75% and he drops off the list completely.

Nice job manipulating the numbers to portray the most positive result, though.

Hahahahahaha

You and the people who thanked you obviously misunderstood what the "% snaps" represents. It's based on the number of snaps the player actually played. And since Poz did not play 75% of the snaps this year (probably due to that injury), then of course his stats are not shown, because he didn't play the required # of snaps.

[SABURZFAN]

Hahahahahaha

You and the people who thanked you obviously misunderstood what the "% snaps" represents. It's based on the number of snaps the player actually played. And since Poz did not play 75% of the snaps this year (probably due to that injury), then of course his stats are not shown, because he didn't play the required # of snaps.


keep licking his balls. he's still mediocre.

[Philagape]

Instead of using 60% snaps as the criteria, use All and he drops down to seventh. Use 75% and he drops off the list completely.

Nice job manipulating the numbers to portray the most positive result, though.

That web site is bizarre.
It says Poz's best game (and second-best game against the run) was at the Jets ... a game in which the Bills gave up 318 yards rushing. I guess it doesn't list "overpursuits" and "misdirection bites" as stats.

If pass defense is one of his strengths, why is his avg. yards allowed per catch the highest in the top 44?

It doesn't list yards allowed per tackle, which makes it useless for a linebacker.

Against the pass, Poz in ninth; against the run, he's 17th. That's very helpful on a defense that allowed the second-most rushing attempts last year. Somehow being mediocre across the board raises a LB's ranking.

But if pff.com says it, it must be so. pff.com "destroys" all else :rofl:

nerds :rofl:

[YardRat]

Hahahahahaha

You and the people who thanked you obviously misunderstood what the "% snaps" represents. It's based on the number of snaps the player actually played. And since Poz did not play 75% of the snaps this year (probably due to that injury), then of course his stats are not shown, because he didn't play the required # of snaps.

I know exactly what it meant.

Gotta be on the field to play the game.

[psubills62]

I know exactly what it meant.

Gotta be on the field to play the game.

Your point was made poorly, as the metrics are concerned with what he does on the field.

The guy has missed 4.5 games in the last two years. Yet somehow, it becomes this huge factor when people talk about his play.

Oh my word, he dropped from 5th to 7th place if you include everyone? By golly, I guess all of those points about metrics are invalid then! :rolleyes: :laughing:

[SirMcGee]

ILB total metric values:

1. P. Willis
2. R. Lewis
3. N. Barnett
4. P. Posluszny
5. E. Henderson

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=ILB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=60&numgames=1

Now most Poz haters will reject this because it destroys their view, but that actually places him as the best 4-3 MLB in 2009. He was 2nd among 4-3 MLBs in 2008 (Fletcher was 1st)

Something else to back those metrics:

David Hawthorne quietly had a monster year, he ranked 2nd in 2009 among 4-3 MLBs and 7th among all ILBs in Tatupu's absence. So good that the Seahawks GM wants 3-4 packages to be installed to get both Tatupu and Hawthorne on the field at the same time.


Dude look at the snap count. Are you serious with this ***? How many more snaps did London Fletcher play compared to Poz? Over 200 more snaps? Give me a break with this crp. EJ Henderson shouldnt even be up there. He only played 670 snaps? Talk to me when Poz actually plays enough snaps.

Snaps he ranks 26th in the league. Stops (cumulateive number of solo tackles that constitute offensive failure)? 25th in the league. 31st in tackles.

26th in the league in snaps? These numbers are garbage. Fletcher's played WAY more snaps. Talk to me when Poz has put in as much playing time as Fletch. We'll talk then.

[SirMcGee]

According to this garbage of a site, you would probably say that Roethlisberger and Rodgers were better QBs than Peyton Manning last year. Right?

[SirMcGee]

More proof that this site is full of crp !!!

Pierre Thomas is ranked a better RB than Adrian Peterson? Interesting. Malcolm Floyd ranked above Miles Austin? Hmmmm. Roethlisberger ranked above Peyton Manning? Hmmm fascinating. Kevin Boss ranked above Dallas Clark, Antonio Gates, and Tony Gonzalez? Wow. I didnt know that. Did you know that Brian Leonard and Ladell Betts are better RB's than Deangelo WIlliams? I didn't know that.

This is truly news to me. You still buy into this ***? If you do, then you are lost.

[YardRat]

Your point was made poorly, as the metrics are concerned with what he does on the field.

The guy has missed 4.5 games in the last two years. Yet somehow, it becomes this huge factor when people talk about his play.

Oh my word, he dropped from 5th to 7th place if you include everyone? By golly, I guess all of those points about metrics are invalid then! :rolleyes: :laughing:

Those metrics are a joke...

the POS - 1 Sack, 3 hits, 5 pressures.
Brooking - 4 sacks, 7 hits, 3 pressures.

And yet, their 'cumulative score' the POS 'rates' 2.9, while Brooking is only 1.5. Is there something else included in that metric that I'm missing?

Individual ranks for the POS...

Sacks - 21 (tie)
Hits - 15 (tie)
Pressure - 16 (tie)

Tackles - 18
Assists - 8 (tie)
Missed Tackles - 10 (tie, reversed)
Stops - 25
% Caught - 32 (yeah...coverage is his strength!)
Completion yards avg - 3rd highest
Passes defensed - 22 (tie, with a whopping 1)

Dude is in the top ten in exactly two categories of those mentioned above, and I have yet to see how the site comes up with a cumulative rating for the run defense metric. Where's the yards per rush metric? Or tackles for a loss?

[Philagape]

More proof that this site is full of crp !!!

Pierre Thomas is ranked a better RB than Adrian Peterson? Interesting. Malcolm Floyd ranked above Miles Austin? Hmmmm. Roethlisberger ranked above Peyton Manning? Hmmm fascinating. Kevin Boss ranked above Dallas Clark, Antonio Gates, and Tony Gonzalez? Wow. I didnt know that. Did you know that Brian Leonard and Ladell Betts are better RB's than Deangelo WIlliams? I didn't know that.

This is truly news to me. You still buy into this ***? If you do, then you are lost.

OMG.
What a joke that site is.
But I already knew that when it said Poz's best game was at the Jets.

[SirMcGee]

OMG.
What a joke that site is.
But I already knew that when it said Poz's best game was at the Jets.

According to JCBills and every other Poz supporter, all ths is true. Malcolm Floyd is a top 10 WR in the NFL according to JCBills. Might as well trade our number 9 draft pick for him.

[psubills62]

Those metrics are a joke...

the POS - 1 Sack, 3 hits, 5 pressures.
Brooking - 4 sacks, 7 hits, 3 pressures.

And yet, their 'cumulative score' the POS 'rates' 2.9, while Brooking is only 1.5. Is there something else included in that metric that I'm missing?

Individual ranks for the POS...

Sacks - 21 (tie)
Hits - 15 (tie)
Pressure - 16 (tie)

Tackles - 18
Assists - 8 (tie)
Missed Tackles - 10 (tie, reversed)
Stops - 25
% Caught - 32 (yeah...coverage is his strength!)
Completion yards avg - 3rd highest
Passes defensed - 22 (tie, with a whopping 1)

Dude is in the top ten in exactly two categories of those mentioned above, and I have yet to see how the site comes up with a cumulative rating for the run defense metric. Where's the yards per rush metric? Or tackles for a loss?

You should be able to read about as well as I can. You're welcome to actually look for the answers to your questions:

http://profootballfocus.com/about.php?tab=about

It's pretty obvious they don't just go off of the # sacks/# pressure/# hits to get a grade.

I can't believe some of the logic I'm seeing. First, you're telling me he's crap because he only played 800 snaps (yeah, that's not enough to grade someone on). Then you say he doesn't rank very well in the cumulative numbers.

OH REALLY? Gee, maybe that's because...he didn't play as many snaps? Maybe you should look at the numbers per snap to get a better idea.

And regarding your comparison to Keith Brooking - my guess would be that yes, he did get better cumulative pass rushing numbers but he probably didn't do well per number of times rushing the passer. To take an extreme example, if Brooking gets 10 sacks but rushed the passer 100 times, is he really better at rushing the passer than someone who gets there 2 times in 4 tries? And while I do remember Poz rushing the passer with not much success several times, I guarantee you he didn't rush the passer nearly as much as most LB's, being in the Tampa 2.

[SirMcGee]

You should be able to read about as well as I can. You're welcome to actually look for the answers to your questions:

http://profootballfocus.com/about.php?tab=about

It's pretty obvious they don't just go off of the # sacks/# pressure/# hits to get a grade.

I can't believe some of the logic I'm seeing. First, you're telling me he's crap because he only played 800 snaps (yeah, that's not enough to grade someone on). Then you say he doesn't rank very well in the cumulative numbers.

OH REALLY? Gee, maybe that's because...he didn't play as many snaps? Maybe you should look at the numbers per snap to get a better idea.

And regarding your comparison to Keith Brooking - my guess would be that yes, he did get better cumulative pass rushing numbers but he probably didn't do well per number of times rushing the passer. To take an extreme example, if Brooking gets 10 sacks but rushed the passer 100 times, is he really better at rushing the passer than someone who gets there 2 times in 4 tries? And while I do remember Poz rushing the passer with not much success several times, I guarantee you he didn't rush the passer nearly as much as most LB's, being in the Tampa 2.

Please don't use this site as a source for anything. I've already proven that this site's a joke.

[psubills62]

Please don't use this site as a source for anything. I've already proven that this site's a joke.

You've proven nothing. Your girly way of picking and choosing random little stats have done jack squat. Here's a link to the NFL.com stats themselves:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS_PER_GAME_AVG&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2009&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=1

Tee-hee, look! They have Cedric Benson and Thomas Jones ahead of Adrian Peterson! Those stats don't mean anything, then, either, huh?

You've randomly picked people who you consider "better" than other people and "proven" the site false because they didn't rank them in the order you liked. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The site is based on stats from a single year. If you don't like them, then explain why you think they're wrong based on something other than preconceived notions of a player's talent.

The NFL.com website also has Roethlisberger with a better NFL QB rating than Manning. I guess that means that site is worthless, too, right?

You've proven nothing but your own ignorance.

Finally, the post you replied to of mine was in response to YardRat, who was questioning the site's stats. I find it odd that you tell me I can't reference that site to help answer questions about that site.

[SirMcGee]

You've proven nothing. Your girly way of picking and choosing random little stats have done jack squat. Here's a link to the NFL.com stats themselves:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS_PER_GAME_AVG&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2009&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=1

Tee-hee, look! They have Cedric Benson and Thomas Jones ahead of Adrian Peterson! Those stats don't mean anything, then, either, huh?

You've randomly picked people who you consider "better" than other people and "proven" the site false because they didn't rank them in the order you liked. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The site is based on stats from a single year. If you don't like them, then explain why you think they're wrong based on something other than preconceived notions of a player's talent.

The NFL.com website also has Roethlisberger with a better NFL QB rating than Manning. I guess that means that site is worthless, too, right?

You've proven nothing but your own ignorance.

Finally, the post you replied to of mine was in response to YardRat, who was questioning the site's stats. I find it odd that you tell me I can't reference that site to help answer questions about that site.


No no. It's clearly obvious that Malcolm Floyd is a TOP 10 WR in the NFL. I just didn't realize this until this site pointed it out. Thanks for the pointer. :bs:

[psubills62]

This message is hidden because SirMcGee is on your ignore list (http://billszone.com/fanzone/profile.php?do=editlist).

Congratulations, you're the first one in BZ!

I was trying to get AWAY from the BBMB.

[alohabillsfan]

let it go HE IS AVG...

[SirMcGee]

This message is hidden because SirMcGee is on your ignore list (http://billszone.com/fanzone/profile.php?do=editlist).

Congratulations, you're the first one in BZ!

I was trying to get AWAY from the BBMB.

Hey don't blame me. Its not my fault that your site is flawed. How is Malcolm Floyd a top 10 WR and Kevin Boss a top 5 TE? Answer me this?

[JCBills]

Instead of using 60% snaps as the criteria, use All and he drops down to seventh. Use 75% and he drops off the list completely.

Nice job manipulating the numbers to portray the most positive result, though.

You're clueless.

It's by % the defensive unit played as a whole. Poz missed time, so yeah he didn't have as many snaps.

Now let's go back to 2008, when he started and played all 16 games.

Bump that filter to 75% snaps, and where is he? #6, right behind Fletcher for #1 4-3 MLB.

Even in 2009, among players only seeing 25%, Poz is in the top 10.

[JCBills]

More proof that this site is full of crp !!!

Pierre Thomas is ranked a better RB than Adrian Peterson? Interesting. Malcolm Floyd ranked above Miles Austin? Hmmmm. Roethlisberger ranked above Peyton Manning? Hmmm fascinating. Kevin Boss ranked above Dallas Clark, Antonio Gates, and Tony Gonzalez? Wow. I didnt know that. Did you know that Brian Leonard and Ladell Betts are better RB's than Deangelo WIlliams? I didn't know that.

This is truly news to me. You still buy into this ***? If you do, then you are lost.

Are you aware of the term "double standard"?

This is why the filter is set to 60%, though you seem to fail to be able to comprehend that.

[JCBills]

Those metrics are a joke...

the POS - 1 Sack, 3 hits, 5 pressures.
Brooking - 4 sacks, 7 hits, 3 pressures.

And yet, their 'cumulative score' the POS 'rates' 2.9, while Brooking is only 1.5. Is there something else included in that metric that I'm missing?

Individual ranks for the POS...

Sacks - 21 (tie)
Hits - 15 (tie)
Pressure - 16 (tie)

Tackles - 18
Assists - 8 (tie)
Missed Tackles - 10 (tie, reversed)
Stops - 25
% Caught - 32 (yeah...coverage is his strength!)
Completion yards avg - 3rd highest
Passes defensed - 22 (tie, with a whopping 1)

Dude is in the top ten in exactly two categories of those mentioned above, and I have yet to see how the site comes up with a cumulative rating for the run defense metric. Where's the yards per rush metric? Or tackles for a loss?

These wouldn't be metrics if everything wasn't weighed. Everything is. The specific stats you're asking for cost money.

Yeah, Brooking could have more sacks and hits, but how many came in junk time? How many of those were garbage sacks?

Oh, and what does every throwing stat eventually factor into? QB rating.

Average opposing QB rating when thrown at: 47.4 (1st)

[JCBills]

OMG.
What a joke that site is.
But I already knew that when it said Poz's best game was at the Jets.

Understand that he's cherry-picking stats ignoring the amount of snaps played.

Anyone can be metrically graded higher than any all-pro if they've only played 300 snaps.

I would still love to see a valid argument that isn't based on opinion. Poz's collective stats over a high quantity of snaps have been very good.

[Philagape]

Who cares what this site has to say? It's a made-up formula from a bunch of geeks that says Poz's best game was on a day he helped the other team run for 318 yards, and it puts Brian Leonard above Adrian Peterson, and Marcedes Lewis ahead of Dallas Clark.

[Philagape]

Lies, damn lies and ....

[SaviorEdwards]

This guy has to be a lawyer LOL. I love how he spins everything in his favor. It is very entertaining though that someone would put so much stock into a bunch of pinhead scientists when evaluating NFL talent. :bike: Just like BBMB has their own spinster in Chris Brown, we now have one here.

[SirMcGee]

Are you aware of the term "double standard"?

This is why the filter is set to 60%, though you seem to fail to be able to comprehend that.

Yea and Malcolm Floyds a top 10 WR :shutup:

[JCBills]

Who cares what this site has to say? It's a made-up formula from a bunch of geeks that says Poz's best game was on a day he helped the other team run for 318 yards, and it puts Brian Leonard above Adrian Peterson, and Marcedes Lewis ahead of Dallas Clark.

You're ignoring what's right in front of you, I just said he's using it based on non-starter snaps. Anyone can look great across 300 snaps, even easier off the bench.

People will reject it because it destroys their slanted opinions.

There are 11 players on a defense. Your argument would only be valid if Poz played all 11 positions, or if defenses only consisted of one player.

We ran a one gap 4-3 tampa 2 based scheme. Poz could have executed his gap assignment on every play, but if the DL or OLBs don't man their gaps properly, massive plays can be broken off, all it takes is a crack.

If you look at the team metrics for that day, the front 4 didn't execute at all.

Total values for that game:

Stroud: -8.9 (-7.3 Vs Run)
Williams: -1.1 (-1.7 Vs Run)
Kelsay: -4.0 (-1.8 Vs Run)
Schobel: -2.1 (0.2 Vs Run)

[JCBills]

This guy has to be a lawyer LOL. I love how he spins everything in his favor. It is very entertaining though that someone would put so much stock into a bunch of pinhead scientists when evaluating NFL talent. :bike: Just like BBMB has their own spinster in Chris Brown, we now have one here.

Nothing is spun in my favor. If anything, McGee has picked certain things while ignoring others completely to make his point seem valid.

I also understand that because so many people hate Poz, they will keep their tunnel-vision and side with whoever sees it the way they do.

I don't know how many times I've said this now, but anyone can look good only playing 300 snaps.

Sorry folks but unbiased analysis > opinion.

[Philagape]

You're ignoring what's right in front of you, I just said he's using it based on non-starter snaps. Anyone can look great across 300 snaps, even easier off the bench.

Kevin Boss had 962 snaps and is the No. 3 tight end in the NFL. No. 4 Marcedes Lewis had 829 snaps.


People will reject it because it destroys their slanted opinions.

Or because it's laughably ridiculous.


If you look at the team metrics for that day, the front 4 didn't execute at all.

Total values for that game:

Stroud: -8.9 (-7.3 Vs Run)
Williams: -1.1 (-1.7 Vs Run)
Kelsay: -4.0 (-1.8 Vs Run)
Schobel: -2.1 (0.2 Vs Run)

I watched. The game.
Long runs happened after Poz bit on misdirections and overpursued.

Stats alone are the weakest argument because you can say everything you're saying and not watch a single minute.
You keep using the made-up formula as proof that the made-up formula doesn't suck.

[better days]

Who cares what this site has to say? It's a made-up formula from a bunch of geeks that says Poz's best game was on a day he helped the other team run for 318 yards, and it puts Brian Leonard above Adrian Peterson, and Marcedes Lewis ahead of Dallas Clark.

I hate stats & wish they were not allowed on boards. Players should be evaluated by what you see when watching them play. I really had hoped the Bills would get Willis in the draft but the 49ers screwed us. That said, I don't hate Poz, there are worse than him in the league.

[JCBills]

Kevin Boss had 962 snaps and is the No. 3 tight end in the NFL. No. 4 Marcedes Lewis had 829 snaps.



Or because it's laughably ridiculous.



I watched. The game.
Long runs happened after Poz bit on misdirections and overpursued.

Stats alone are the weakest argument because you can say everything you're saying and not watch a single minute.
You keep using the made-up formula as proof that the made-up formula doesn't suck.
Because they graded very high in areas other than just receiving, paired with pretty good receiving numbers, yeah they will metrically grade higher, you're thinking in terms of only one factor.

Made-up formula? Sorry but that sauce is weak, you're just refusing to open your eyes.

[Bravo82]

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg137/bravo_82/jc_billssig.jpg

[JCBills]

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg137/bravo_82/jc_billssig.jpg

I see I've inspired fans to craft works of art in honor.

[Philagape]

I hate stats & wish they were not allowed on boards. Players should be evaluated by what you see when watching them play. I really had hoped the Bills would get Willis in the draft but the 49ers screwed us. That said, I don't hate Poz, there are worse than him in the league.

Sorry, if you don't think Poz is an all-pro, you HATE him.

Mediocre isn't good enough!

[JCBills]

Sorry, if you don't think Poz is an all-pro, you HATE him.

Mediocre isn't good enough!

When people don't have anything left to stand on, they tend to put words in the mouths of others.

[better days]

Sorry, if you don't think Poz is an all-pro, you HATE him.

Mediocre isn't good enough!

I would not call him Mediocre. I think the injuries have ******ed his development & play. If he stays healthy, I think the 3-4 will suit him & he will show why he was drafted. The question is can he stay healthy?

[SABURZFAN]

I hate stats & wish they were not allowed on boards. Players should be evaluated by what you see when watching them play.


that doesn't necessarily mean everybody will agree that way either. take it from somebody who knows.

[better days]

that doesn't necessarily mean everybody will agree that way either. take it from somebody who knows.
I know you are right about that. I would just rather hear arguments that point out how a player played on the field than arguments over numbers.

Anyone that has been to college knows statistics can be twisted to support both sides of an argument.

[JCBills]

Dude look at the snap count. Are you serious with this ***? How many more snaps did London Fletcher play compared to Poz? Over 200 more snaps? Give me a break with this crp. EJ Henderson shouldnt even be up there. He only played 670 snaps? Talk to me when Poz actually plays enough snaps.

Snaps he ranks 26th in the league. Stops (cumulateive number of solo tackles that constitute offensive failure)? 25th in the league. 31st in tackles.

26th in the league in snaps? These numbers are garbage. Fletcher's played WAY more snaps. Talk to me when Poz has put in as much playing time as Fletch. We'll talk then.

Ok, let's talk.

First, lol at your lack of comprehension.

2008:

Fletcher placed 7th in total metric value, Poz placed 8th for #1 and #2 at 4-3 MLB.

Paul Posluszny:

Snaps: 993
Total Value: 10.2
Rush Value: -4.0
Coverage Value: 6.2
Run Value: 9.0
Missed Tackles: 4
Stops/Stuffs: 45

London Fletcher:

Snaps - 983
Total Value - 10.7
Rush Value: 0.1
Coverage Value: 7.8
Run Value: 3.8
Missed Tackles: 4
Stops/Stuffs: 48

[JCBills]

I know you are right about that. I would just rather hear arguments that point out how a player played on the field than arguments over numbers.

Anyone that has been to college knows statistics can be twisted to support both sides of an argument.

Yes, base statistics (in terms of football) can, for example total tackles means nothing, yet it is pulled all the time, like McGee tried to in his argument in this thread.

Metrics, when viewed as a whole, make it extremely hard to, if not impossible. They are the most un-biased way to evaluate player performance. Cherry-picking stats can twist things of course.

Also, what one person sees happening on the field can be totally different from that of another, it's a matter of perspective.

[JCBills]

I love the dodging.

Next?

[Philagape]

When people don't have anything left to stand on, they tend to put words in the mouths of others.

And when people don't have anything to stand on in the first place, they use ridiculous "metrics" equations that don't come close to reflecting what actually happens on the field.

[Bravo82]

Ok, let's talk.

First, lol at your lack of comprehension.

2008:

Fletcher placed 7th in total metric value, Poz placed 8th for #1 and #2 at 4-3 MLB.

Paul Posluszny:

Snaps: 993
Total Value: 10.2
Rush Value: -4.0
Coverage Value: 6.2
Run Value: 9.0
Missed Tackles: 4
Stops/Stuffs: 45

London Fletcher:

Snaps - 983
Total Value - 10.7
Rush Value: 0.1
Coverage Value: 7.8
Run Value: 3.8
Missed Tackles: 4
Stops/Stuffs: 48

So are these like your own personal madden rankings? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

[Oaf]

Turnovers are the most important statistic for a defender, that's the bottom line.

Disagree. Tackles within 3 yards of the LOS are.

[SirMcGee]

Ok, let's talk.

First, lol at your lack of comprehension.

2008:

Fletcher placed 7th in total metric value, Poz placed 8th for #1 and #2 at 4-3 MLB.

Paul Posluszny:

Snaps: 993
Total Value: 10.2
Rush Value: -4.0
Coverage Value: 6.2
Run Value: 9.0
Missed Tackles: 4
Stops/Stuffs: 45

London Fletcher:

Snaps - 983
Total Value - 10.7
Rush Value: 0.1
Coverage Value: 7.8
Run Value: 3.8
Missed Tackles: 4
Stops/Stuffs: 48

Soo in 2008 Derrick Mason was a better WR than Fitzgerald, David Garrard was the 2nd best QB, Anthony Fasano was the 2nd best TE, and Derrick Ward was the best RB in the league, Thanks for clearing that up.

According to these rankings, Adrian Peterson was the 23rd best RB in this league. Dam he sucks. They should trade him.

[JCBills]

Soo in 2008 Derrick Mason was a better WR than Fitzgerald, David Garrard was the 2nd best QB, Anthony Fasano was the 2nd best TE, and Derrick Ward was the best RB in the league, Thanks for clearing that up.

According to these rankings, Adrian Peterson was the 23rd best RB in this league. Dam he sucks. They should trade him.

You're not even worth answering at this point because you seem to miss entire posts, or you're just unable to understand it, but I'll try for laughs anyways.

You keep looking at it on the 25% filter.

Once again:

ANYONE CAN HAVE ALL PRO METRICS PLAYING 300 SNAPS.

You also have no idea how these work, and thus shouldn't even be allowed into the conversation.

RBs and WRs are graded differently, though everything is still factored in.

For RBs, 75% gives you the guys taking the serious bulk of the snaps, though it is still a relatively low count compared to other positions, and their play over that extended period of time is the measuring stick, not Johnny off the bench.

You also have to finally understand (after several times saying this) that EVERYTHING is weighed when coming up with the final numbers. Yeah, Fitz had outlandish stats, but when they occurred is a massive factor. Fitz also has a massive threat across from him in Boldin, Mason could have made more catches in double coverage, etc.

It's all factored in, it's a trusted system used by ESPN via FootballOutsiders, KC Joyner, Stats.com, The Elias Sports Bureau, and several other well-respected unbiased experts. They're paid to be accurate, PFF just so happens to relay them for free.

Put the filter to where it should be for RBs, and Peterson is #5. His metrics are hurt by poor receiving and blocking grades, as well as his knack for fumbles, though he still was #2 for running the ball.

You're just going to continue to be ignorant, though it does provide humor.

[Philagape]

Saying something several times makes it no more relevant.

[Philagape]

And citing ESPN as a user certainly makes it no more relevant :rofl:

[JCBills]

Since you have such a beef with metrics and seemingly PFF overall, here you go, shoot an e-mail to the guys running it and you can compare notes:

"The truth is I'm really keen for someone to challenge the work on rather more legitimate grounds. I'd love for someone to say I also went through this game on a play by play basis and came up with some clear discrepancies in comparison to your work, can we discuss them? I think it's on that basis we get better and make the whole thing more accurate.
If you've done a play-by-play analysis then we'd be delighted to compare notes. You can contact us using the Errors choice in the Contact Us (http://profootballfocus.com/about.php?tab=about&about=contact) section."

Link and everything, knock yourself out.

[JCBills]

Saying something several times makes it no more relevant.

Rejecting something because it doesn't agree with your view doesn't make it irrelevant.

You remind me of religion, the rejection of any new information which challenges the established way of thought.

[Philagape]

You don't get it.
The sport cannot be reduced to numbers on a screen.
Ever.
Some stats can be useful. Sometimes. But they almost never tell the whole story.
For example, I did challenge their work by saying their LB formula didn't include yards allowed per tackle. Even if it did, it would make no difference in it being a stupid, useless waste of time.
The sport has exponential variables. What if an interception was caused by another player's tip? What if a sack came after someone else got to the QB first? Or happened because the QB was an idiot?
To elevate someone's made-up formula to the absolute truth is being just as much a clueless numbers geek as they are.

[Philagape]

Rejecting something because it doesn't agree with your view doesn't make it irrelevant.

You remind me of religion, the rejection of any new information which challenges the established way of thought.

pff.com challenges nothing. It is not "information." It is numbers on a screen from someone's made-up formula. It's their opinion. They're the ones who write the formula based on their viewpoints. That challenges nothing. It means nothing.

[Philagape]

Mindlessly lapping up some Web site's numbers like they're the Bible is more like religion (or some people's view of it).

[JCBills]

You don't get it.
The sport cannot be reduced to numbers on a screen.
Ever.
Some stats can be useful. Sometimes. But they almost never tell the whole story.
For example, I did challenge their work by saying their LB formula didn't include yards allowed per tackle. Even if it did, it would make no difference in it being a stupid, useless waste of time.
The sport has exponential variables. What if an interception was caused by another player's tip? What if a sack came after someone else got to the QB first? Or happened because the QB was an idiot?
To elevate someone's made-up formula to the absolute truth is being just as much a clueless numbers geek as they are.

Ignorance has to be bliss (you could describe it to me), either that or you read every 5 lines, because I'm so sick of repeating myself.

Just because the stat isn't displayed on the chart doesn't mean it isn't weighed into it, I've already said this, the most important thing is average yds allowed when making a tackle, and again, like I already said, stats like that usually cost money.

So many things are factored in that you couldn't display it on one chart, this is a summary compared to metrics books / files, feel free to pay for them.

I know that metrics aren't the end-all evaluation of a player, though they are far more accurate than any of your opinions, though it was a valiant (and comical) effort.

A sack that a player gets caused by the pressure of another player is called a "garbage sack", and yes, like everything anyone has tried to bring up, it's factored in.

For example, Dumervil posted 17 sacks to lead the NFL in 2009, though a lot of those could have been garbage sacks, which could be one of many reasons his pass rush rating was 5th and not 1st, feel free to ask the guys watching every player every play.

[JCBills]

pff.com challenges nothing. It is not "information." It is numbers on a screen from someone's made-up formula. It's their opinion. They're the ones who write the formula based on their viewpoints. That challenges nothing. It means nothing.

LOL

Now you're projecting.

This is your opinion on the matter, I know that, but I'm sorry to inform you it's wrong.

There is no opinion when it boils down to a success/failure measure.

[JCBills]

Mindlessly lapping up some Web site's numbers like they're the Bible is more like religion (or some people's view of it).
I've mentioned several respected sources using the same formulas to evaluate players. The biggest one, ESB, also uses metrics, though they only release the base stats for the NFL unless you cough up the cash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Sports_Bureau

I'm sure it's a useless system if some form of it is used by just about every major sports league in the country via ESB.

But hey I'm sure you know more than all of them.

It was fun for a while, but I'm done trying to pry people's eyes open.

[Philagape]

I've mentioned several respected sources using the same formulas to evaluate players. The biggest one, ESB, also uses metrics, though they only release the base stats for the NFL unless you cough up the cash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Sports_Bureau

I'm sure it's a useless system if some form of it is used by just about every major sports league in the country via ESB.

But hey I'm sure you know more than all of them.

Damn right I do.

They're garbage.

Who decides who much a certain factor is weighed? Whoever it is, that's their opinion. And their opinion means no more than anyone else's. The only thing they're experts in is setting up a scam by getting sheeple to pay so much attention because they took the time to compile their meaningless metrics.

If I were to write to them, I'd say, "You're spending far too much time and money on something that will forever mean nothing. Get a life."
And I'd say the same to the saps who wrongly think these numbers are "information."

[JCBills]

Damn right I do.

They're garbage.

Who decides who much a certain factor is weighed? Whoever it is, that's their opinion. And their opinion means no more than anyone else's. The only thing they're experts in is setting up a scam by getting sheeple to pay so much attention because they took the time to compile their meaningless metrics.

If I were to write to them, I'd say, "You're spending far too much time and money on something that will forever mean nothing. Get a life."
And I'd say the same to the saps who wrongly think these numbers are "information."

Thanks for the laughs.

[Bravo82]

some haters in here http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg137/bravo_82/bravho.jpg

[JCBills]

How did you find our site?:
Block "O"

Well now it all makes sense!

[SirMcGee]

You're not even worth answering at this point because you seem to miss entire posts, or you're just unable to understand it, but I'll try for laughs anyways.

You keep looking at it on the 25% filter.

Once again:

ANYONE CAN HAVE ALL PRO METRICS PLAYING 300 SNAPS.

You also have no idea how these work, and thus shouldn't even be allowed into the conversation.

RBs and WRs are graded differently, though everything is still factored in.

For RBs, 75% gives you the guys taking the serious bulk of the snaps, though it is still a relatively low count compared to other positions, and their play over that extended period of time is the measuring stick, not Johnny off the bench.

You also have to finally understand (after several times saying this) that EVERYTHING is weighed when coming up with the final numbers. Yeah, Fitz had outlandish stats, but when they occurred is a massive factor. Fitz also has a massive threat across from him in Boldin, Mason could have made more catches in double coverage, etc.

It's all factored in, it's a trusted system used by ESPN via FootballOutsiders, KC Joyner, Stats.com, The Elias Sports Bureau, and several other well-respected unbiased experts. They're paid to be accurate, PFF just so happens to relay them for free.

Put the filter to where it should be for RBs, and Peterson is #5. His metrics are hurt by poor receiving and blocking grades, as well as his knack for fumbles, though he still was #2 for running the ball.

You're just going to continue to be ignorant, though it does provide humor.


Umm. No i don't have the FILTER on 25%. If i have it set on ALL...Takeo Spikes is ranked number 1. 75%, Channing Crowder is number 1 ILB. 50% and 25% Takeo Spikes is number 1 ILB in 2008. Don't blame this on the ******ed "FILTER"

For QB in 2008, at 75%, David Garrard is the 2nd best QB? Steve Smith and Derrick Mason is ranked over Fitzgerald?

For TE in 08. Anthony Fasano is STILL Ranked ahead of Witten, Clark, Gates and Owen Daniels. How is that right? This is at 75% "FILTER" and ALL.

This is total *******. Stop blaming the "FILTER"

Do you want me to continue to prove you wrong?

But hey. IF you truly believe Fasano is the 2nd best TE in this league, and Garrard is the 2nd best QB in this league, and Poz is the 6th best ILB in this league. More power to you.

[JCBills]

Umm. No i don't have the FILTER on 25%. If i have it set on ALL...Takeo Spikes is ranked number 1. 75%, Channing Crowder is number 1 ILB. 50% and 25% Takeo Spikes is number 1 ILB in 2008. Don't blame this on the ******ed "FILTER"

For QB in 2008, at 75%, David Garrard is the 2nd best QB? Steve Smith and Derrick Mason is ranked over Fitzgerald?

For TE in 08. Anthony Fasano is STILL Ranked ahead of Witten, Clark, Gates and Owen Daniels. How is that right? This is at 75% "FILTER" and ALL.

This is total *******. Stop blaming the "FILTER"

Do you want me to continue to prove you wrong?

But hey. IF you truly believe Fasano is the 2nd best TE in this league, and Garrard is the 2nd best QB in this league, and Poz is the 6th best ILB in this league. More power to you.

LOL

I got there and stopped reading, how you don't understand what the filter means yet is just beyond me.

I did get a genuine laugh though, almost dropping my computer. I can still tell you're thinking so incredibly one dimensionally it's funny. "THESE TES HAVE BETTER RECEIVING NUMBERS THAN THESE TES, BUT THESE ONES GRADED HIGHER THAN THE RECEIVING LEADERS. WHY JEEBUS WHY?" Fasano absolutely destroyed everyone you listed in blocking grade, the only person even close was Witten and he didn't crack the top 10, he was actually the only one of the group named that posted a positive run blocking value.

I'm sure you'll continue to seemingly think the only job of a tight end is to catch the ball.

Garrard graded very high overall because of his run value. If you want to continue to crack me up, keep posting.

I don't know what you think you're proving other than your own ignorance.

You jump from the 08 numbers to current #whatever best in the league. I can't believe I'm even responding to this joke of an argument.

[SABURZFAN]

LOL

I got there and stopped reading, how you don't understand what the filter means yet is just beyond me.

I did get a genuine laugh though, almost dropping my computer. I can still tell you're thinking so incredibly one dimensionally it's funny. "THESE TES HAVE BETTER RECEIVING NUMBERS THAN THESE TES, BUT THESE ONES GRADED HIGHER THAN THE RECEIVING LEADERS. WHY JEEBUS WHY?" Fasano absolutely destroyed everyone you listed in blocking grade, the only person even close was Witten and he didn't crack the top 10, he was actually the only one of the group named that posted a positive run blocking value.

I'm sure you'll continue to seemingly think the only job of a tight end is to catch the ball.

Garrard graded very high overall because of his run value. If you want to continue to crack me up, keep posting.

I don't know what you think you're proving other than your own ignorance.

You jump from the 08 numbers to current #whatever best in the league. I can't believe I'm even responding to this joke of an argument.

i can.

[SirMcGee]

LOL

I got there and stopped reading, how you don't understand what the filter means yet is just beyond me.

I did get a genuine laugh though, almost dropping my computer. I can still tell you're thinking so incredibly one dimensionally it's funny. "THESE TES HAVE BETTER RECEIVING NUMBERS THAN THESE TES, BUT THESE ONES GRADED HIGHER THAN THE RECEIVING LEADERS. WHY JEEBUS WHY?" Fasano absolutely destroyed everyone you listed in blocking grade, the only person even close was Witten and he didn't crack the top 10, he was actually the only one of the group named that posted a positive run blocking value.

I'm sure you'll continue to seemingly think the only job of a tight end is to catch the ball.

Garrard graded very high overall because of his run value. If you want to continue to crack me up, keep posting.

I don't know what you think you're proving other than your own ignorance.

You jump from the 08 numbers to current #whatever best in the league. I can't believe I'm even responding to this joke of an argument.

Hey...you blamed the filter setting as your argument. I tried EVERY Percentage for each category (ALL, 25%, 50% and 75%). All results were a joke. Don't blame me for your stupidity in believing this joke of a site. Once again i proved you wrong. Sorry but Garrard is NOT the 2nd best QB even though you may believe so.

You CLEARLY stated that I got those stupid results because i had the filter set at 25%. did you not? so i tried it on every other percentage. Same results. This site is FLAWED in ranking players by position. So sorry. I don't buy that Poz should be ranked that high. You're incorrect.

[JCBills]

Hey...you blamed the filter setting as your argument. I tried EVERY Percentage for each category (ALL, 25%, 50% and 75%). All results were a joke. Don't blame me for your stupidity in believing this joke of a site. Once again i proved you wrong. Sorry but Garrard is NOT the 2nd best QB even though you may believe so.

You CLEARLY stated that I got those stupid results because i had the filter set at 25%. did you not? so i tried it on every other percentage. Same results. This site is FLAWED in ranking players by position. So sorry. I don't buy that Poz should be ranked that high. You're incorrect.
LOL

Proved me wrong? On what! all you keep doing is giving bits and pieces of an argument, twisting this guy on this % grades better than this guy on this % snaps BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. Lack of comprehension isn't my fault kiddo.

I'm at the point where I'd almost question your literacy, you seemingly miss entire sections, I've said this before and the practice seems to be continuous. You don't have to "buy it" for it to be relevant and a much better judge of performance than you.

Did I say Garrard is the 2nd best QB in the league? Nope. Metrically, does he have a higher value than a lot of better passers because he can churn out 1st downs running the ball? Yup. Not very hard to grasp, yet it seems to be like quantum mechanics to you. The continuous ignorance of factors already presented to you, like junk time and multi-dimensional grading, is just.....wow. It's not my fault you can't get things through that head of yours.

[Bravo82]

do you have a life JC? take a chill pill dude, nobody cares about your personalized madden rankings. might I suggest pushing your draft guide books out of sight and crack open a cold one IMHO http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg137/bravo_82/bravho.jpg

[YardRat]

You're clueless.

It's by % the defensive unit played as a whole. Poz missed time, so yeah he didn't have as many snaps.

Now let's go back to 2008, when he started and played all 16 games.

Bump that filter to 75% snaps, and where is he? #6, right behind Fletcher for #1 4-3 MLB.

Even in 2009, among players only seeing 25%, Poz is in the top 10.

Settle down, junior.

If you want to base your opinions or arguments on some conehead's statistical formulas that's certainly your prerogative, but eventually you'll realize that they can be manipulated and are flawed.

The phrase 'statistics are for losers' is a truism, not a theory.

[SirMcGee]

LOL

Proved me wrong? On what! all you keep doing is giving bits and pieces of an argument, twisting this guy on this % grades better than this guy on this % snaps BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. Lack of comprehension isn't my fault kiddo.

I'm at the point where I'd almost question your literacy, you seemingly miss entire sections, I've said this before and the practice seems to be continuous. You don't have to "buy it" for it to be relevant and a much better judge of performance than you.

Did I say Garrard is the 2nd best QB in the league? Nope. Metrically, does he have a higher value than a lot of better passers because he can churn out 1st downs running the ball? Yup. Not very hard to grasp, yet it seems to be like quantum mechanics to you. The continuous ignorance of factors already presented to you, like junk time and multi-dimensional grading, is just.....wow. It's not my fault you can't get things through that head of yours.

You're clearly wrong and obviously in denial. It's OK to be wrong.

[JCBills]

You're clearly wrong and obviously in denial. It's OK to be wrong.

You're projecting again.

[Mr. Pink]

As a MLB POS isn't only mediocre, he's outright terrible.

He has no knowledge of the flow of the game which is evidenced by his own play and reads, not too mention he's supposed to be the guy who calls out the defensive signals.

On top of all of that, he makes ZERO impact plays, his tackles are upfield....

People crucified London Fletcher and were glad to see him go, yet POS couldn't carry Fletch's jock on Fletch's worst day and people think he's a hero.

[SirMcGee]

You're projecting again.

Its OK. You're in denial. We'll get you help

[PECKERWOOD]

As a MLB POS isn't only mediocre, he's outright terrible.

He has no knowledge of the flow of the game which is evidenced by his own play and reads, not too mention he's supposed to be the guy who calls out the defensive signals.

On top of all of that, he makes ZERO impact plays, his tackles are upfield....

People crucified London Fletcher and were glad to see him go, yet POS couldn't carry Fletch's jock on Fletch's worst day and people think he's a hero.

Zero impact plays? WTF. He created more turnovers over the last 2 years than 90% of the linebackers listed in this thread that are supposedly "better" than Poz.

[JCBills]

As a MLB POS isn't only mediocre, he's outright terrible.

He has no knowledge of the flow of the game which is evidenced by his own play and reads, not too mention he's supposed to be the guy who calls out the defensive signals.

On top of all of that, he makes ZERO impact plays, his tackles are upfield....

People crucified London Fletcher and were glad to see him go, yet POS couldn't carry Fletch's jock on Fletch's worst day and people think he's a hero.

LOL this is so wrong it's funny.

[JCBills]

Its OK. You're in denial. We'll get you help

I just love your total lack of ability to comprehend anything, and you sure do know how to keep me laughing.

[SaviorEdwards]

I just love your total lack of ability to comprehend anything, and you sure do know how to keep me laughing.

Give it up bro you have been owned in this thread. Go back to your pencil neck geek football 'metric' forums where you guys can talk about Star Trek and Yu-gi-Oh

[JCBills]

Give it up bro you have been owned in this thread. Go back to your pencil neck geek football 'metric' forums where you guys can talk about Star Trek and Yu-gi-Oh

LOL

Just because there are more idiots than informed people doesn't make you right.

What the hell is yu gi oh?

I've actually played sports my whole life, but alright there chief, keep me laughing.

[SaviorEdwards]

LOL

Just because there are more idiots than informed people doesn't make you right.

What the hell is yu gi oh?

I've actually played sports my whole life, but alright there chief, keep me laughing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKLis9sQh94

[SirMcGee]

I just love your total lack of ability to comprehend anything, and you sure do know how to keep me laughing.

There's nothing to comprehend. We all know that David Garrard is the 2nd best QB in the league. :whistle:

[JCBills]

There's nothing to comprehend. We all know that David Garrard is the 2nd best QB in the league. :whistle:

Here we have a fine example of ignorance paired with immaturity.

When you have something valid, let me know, until then, please remove yourself from my package.