Can we please stop saying there is talent and potential on this roster

[more cowbell]

Seriously...on this entire roster...there isn't ONE "star" or "elite" player to build a franchise around.

There are a few "good" players, the rest wouldn't even come close to starting on a different team.

All of our "core guys" are average players.

Let's break it down

QB - Edwards (sucks) Fitzpatrick (sucks) Brohm (sucks)

RB - Jackson (Good starter) Lynch (Average)

FB - McIntyre (How is this guy on an NFL roster?)

WR - Evans (average) Hardy (sucks) parrish (sucks) johnson (sucks)

TE - Nelson (average) Schouman (average?)

T - Bell (horrible) Meredith (a decent backup) Green (washed up loser)

G - Wood (average) Levitre (Good Starter)

C - Hangartner (good backup, NOT a starter)

DE - Stroud (average, NEVER played in a 3-4) Edwards (average) Johnson (average, see Stroud)

NT - Williams (good in a 4-3, never has played in a 3-4)

OLB - Mitchell (sucks) Kelsay (sucks, never played a 3-4) Maybin (sucks), Schobel (Probally retired, has never played in a 3-4)

MLB - Poz (Good starter), Davis (average)

CB- McGee (good starter) Florence (Average) McKelvin (?)

FS - Byrd (good starter)

SS - Whitner (sucks)


On paper this is the worst roster in the entire league, and we have the master mind of Chan Gailey getting ready to mold this bunch of has-beens and never-were's into something...

that's real encouraging.

[The Spaz]

You could have placed this in the other thread.

[G Wolly]

po·ten·tial
   /pəˈtɛnʃəl/ Show Spelled[puh-ten-shuhl]
–adjective
1.
possible, as opposed to actual.
2.
capable of being or becoming.

Technically there's always potential. So let's calm down.

[more cowbell]

You could have placed this in the other thread.

sorry dude can we merge it

[PECKERWOOD]

To a degree you're right, but to another degree you're wrong.

Guys like Hardy, Johnson, Bell & Meredith showed little to no hope, to say they have potential is a code word for they've done absolutely nothing, but I'm hoping they do something.

Guys like Kyle Williams, Freddy Jackson, Donte Whitner, Paul Posluszny, Andy Levitre, Geoff Hangartner, Eric Wood & Jairus Byrd on the other hand, it's reasonable to say that these guys have incredible potential because they've been pretty productive from the start.

The distinction needs to be made, some players warrant hope, others have shown nothing.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

:fit:
You could have placed this in the other thread.

[Night Train]

Then how did we win 6,7,7 & 7 games the last 4 years ?

Your logic = Epic Fail


The roster gets flipped 25-30% every year and it will take a couple years to show results. No superstars but some talent to work with. You don't " luck out " winning 6-7 games.

[kernowboy]

The Patriots have made a nasty habit of taking average players from other sides and turning them into team players who help them win Championships.

This is not Madden

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Get me an above average qb and some real pass rushers and i will win you 10 games

[DaBillzAhDaShiznit]

Below average players, when combined with a below average coaching staff yield predictably below average results. It ain't rocket science.

The Bills have lots of things working against them this season--new coaching staff, new defense, new offense, the same below average group of players, and low expectations from the fans.

Get ready for 3-4 wins. And then hope springs eternal next March, right?

[Throne Logic]

Get me an above average qb and some real pass rushers and i will win you 10 games

Not until you fix the on-line, you won't.

[Pinkerton Security]

lets see what the common thread has been since we became sucky oh so many years ago...a BAD OL!!! I truly believe if we can get a dominant offensive line, we would improve significantly. Even Bledsoe showed he could pass behind our decent-ish line for a half a season, but just got hit too much and even a veteran passer with a pretty darn solid career couldnt do too much for the rest of the season when he started to get hit more. This is why I am dead set on drafting an LT at #9 (as long as there's one there worth the pick). Granted, our QB's since then have been crap as well, but again I truly believe this is a result of our horrific OL...not many young guys would have flourished behind the crap Olines we have put out there.

[justasportsfan]

the reason why they all suck is because they were set up to suck.

We could've have an all pro team and they'd still suck.

[DrGraves]

I completely agree. The majority of our roster is trash.... there are way too many delusional bills fans out there.

[psubills62]

Not until you fix the on-line, you won't.

Yeah, my internet sucks too.

[OpIv37]

Talent: Lynch, Jackson, McGee, McKelvin
Potential: Levitre, Wood, Nelson, Corner

Everyone else is either over the hill (Stroud), or average at best. That's not to say they're all worthless. Guys like Poz, Kyle Williams and Spencer Johnson are role players who contribute in their own way. But they're all easily replaceable.

[better days]

Can we please stop saying this roster is totally devoid of talent & potential?

[Mr. Pink]

Then how did we win 6,7,7 & 7 games the last 4 years ?

Your logic = Epic Fail


The roster gets flipped 25-30% every year and it will take a couple years to show results. No superstars but some talent to work with. You don't " luck out " winning 6-7 games.


Overachieving.

[psubills62]

Overachieving.

How? The amazing coaching?

[Mr. Pink]

How? The amazing coaching?


The talent on this roster is similar to the Lions, Browns, Rams of the same time period...

The Lions went winless in a season.

Call it whatever you want but coaching didn't hold the "talent" or lack thereof back.

[psubills62]

The talent on this roster is similar to the Lions, Browns, Rams of the same time period...

The Lions went winless in a season.

Call it whatever you want but coaching didn't hold the "talent" or lack thereof back.

The Lions went winless at the same time as the Bills won 7 games. I don't think a 7 game difference is merely due to "overachieving." I don't think this team is much more than a 0.500 team, but it's not a 2-14 level team. The coaching may not have held it back, but it sure didn't help it at all.

When a team as a whole is better than the individual talent, it's usually attributed to coaching. Since our coaching was pretty piss-poor, I'm just wondering what exactly you attribute the overachievement to.

[OpIv37]

Can we please stop saying this roster is totally devoid of talent & potential?

yeah, saying that is a complete exaggeration. We have minimal talent and potential. Get it right, people!

[Billz_fan]

I completely agree. The majority of our roster is trash.... there are way too many delusional bills fans out there.

I agree as well. The only time everyone is on the same page around here is when we are wrapping up another no playoff season. Then everyone realizes just how lousy things are and agrees on the state of the franchise.

Then the season ends and changes are made. New coach, players come and go. A fesh batch of kool aid is whipped up and we turn into potential contenders again. Thats the situation here now. We are back to a divided fan base.

It's a continous cycle that just keeps looping around. The bottom line is that the on field results never change. They won't either untill RW Jr. is gone. just keep buying those tickets and jerseys folks :laughter:

[PECKERWOOD]

The Lions went winless at the same time as the Bills won 7 games. I don't think a 7 game difference is merely due to "overachieving." I don't think this team is much more than a 0.500 team, but it's not a 2-14 level team. The coaching may not have held it back, but it sure didn't help it at all.

When a team as a whole is better than the individual talent, it's usually attributed to coaching. Since our coaching was pretty piss-poor, I'm just wondering what exactly you attribute the overachievement to.

Good argument and I agree with you, we have much more talent than the Lions in particular. The Lions are my NFC team, I had the opportunity to watch plenty of their games last year as I have NFL Sunday Ticket. First off, the Lions secondary sucks big giant donkey balls, teams could get away with passing on the Lions week in and week out, it was just awful to see. The only good DB the Lions have is pretty much Louis Delmas, who I think is a nasty safety and just waiting to become a Pro Bowler, but other than that we had them beat as far as DB talent goes, as far as DT/DE/DL talent goes and I'd even say that Posluszny is better than any linebacker they have on their team, including Foote & Peterson. The Lions have more talent than us at WR, QB, LT, TE, but that's about it. Hangartner, Levitre, Wood, Lynch & Jackson would all be starters in Detroit, the only players that I would want from them is Matthew Stafford, Brandon Pettigrew, Calvin Johnson & Jeff Backus, that's it, we have them beat everywhere else.

[jamze132]

This will be my only post in this douche of a thread.

[justasportsfan]

Call it whatever you want but coaching didn't hold the "talent" or lack thereof back.
yes they did. How did the jets and Broncos go to the top of the league in defense in one season? Coaching.

[SirMcGee]

Outside of our RB core, Eric Wood, and Jairus Byrd, I can't think of many other players that I think have the potential to be great players. Every other people is easily expendable.

[SirMcGee]

yes they did. How did the jets and Broncos go to the top of the league in defense in one season? Coaching.

And the fact that they spent top dollars on players like Bart Scott, Calvin Pace, Kris Jenkins, Alen Faneca, and then drafted REALLY smart and had a loaded roster had a lot to do with this.

Yes coaching had A LOT to do with this, but they had a STACKED roster with TONS of potential. DBrickashaw Ferguson, Darrelle Revis, Thomas Jones, Shonn Greene, Braylon Edwards, Nick Mangold, David Harris. Are you kidding me? It's not like Rex took a bunch of nobodies and turned them into winners. They had the players, the coaching, and the POTENTIAL to turn that team around. We have none of that.

[justasportsfan]

They had the players, the coaching, and the POTENTIAL to turn that team around. We have none of that.
YOu just made my point. No matter how good your talent is, a bad coach can set them up to fail. The redskins proved that through the years.

We don't know how good or bad our talent is since they were set up to fail since they were drafted. If they fail with another coach then you can start to assume they suck. Guys like Trent, POZ, Whitner and mostly our young players only played under one crappy coach.

[more cowbell]

It's sad to see how many fans still wear the blinders...

[psubills62]

YOu just made my point. No matter how good your talent is, a bad coach can set them up to fail. The redskins proved that through the years.

We don't know how good or bad our talent is since they were set up to fail since they were drafted. If they fail with another coach then you can start to assume they suck. Guys like Trent, POZ, Whitner and mostly our young players only played under one crappy coach.

But of course we all know that guys like Jim Leonhard, Anthony Hargrove, Mario Haggan, Jabari Greer, etc. all suck because they haven't done anything with other teams. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Pink]

But of course we all know that guys like Jim Leonhard, Anthony Hargrove, Mario Haggan, Jabari Greer, etc. all suck because they haven't done anything with other teams. :rolleyes:


I love this argument....use marginal role players who are somewhat productive to say the talent here was good but misused.

The only player on that list above who should still be here is Greer.

Why not actually use a player who was actually good here to make the argument?

Willis McGahee. He's still better than the guy we drafted to replace him no matter how you want to try and say he's not.

JP Losman, Tim Anderson, Tim Euhus, Mark Campbell, Andre Davis, Tutan Reyes, etc were all really great players but just misused by the staff here.

Hell, Sam Aiken had a good game in NE. We shoulda kept him!

I'm really curious what happens if the bottom falls off and we go 4-12 this year, hypothetically, or worse, does Jauron then get some credit for taking this cast of bums to near .500? Or does Chan Gailey get ostracized even more than Dick did?

The fact of the matter is this is a team that cannot block, doesn't have consistent QB play, can't get after the passer with regularity and cannot stop the run. What miracle do you expect coaching to do? I think the team overachieved to near .500 records every year.

The problem with that is, because of that we were stuck never being able to get that top flight, top notch blue chipper in the draft when we were a team talent wise as poor as the Rams basically this year.

[psubills62]

I love this argument....use marginal role players who are somewhat productive to say the talent here was good but misused.

The only player on that list above who should still be here is Greer.

Why not actually use a player who was actually good here to make the argument?

Willis McGahee. He's still better than the guy we drafted to replace him no matter how you want to try and say he's not.

JP Losman, Tim Anderson, Tim Euhus, Mark Campbell, Andre Davis, Tutan Reyes, etc were all really great players but just misused by the staff here.

Hell, Sam Aiken had a good game in NE. We shoulda kept him!

I'm really curious what happens if the bottom falls off and we go 4-12 this year, hypothetically, or worse, does Jauron then get some credit for taking this cast of bums to near .500? Or does Chan Gailey get ostracized even more than Dick did?

The fact of the matter is this is a team that cannot block, doesn't have consistent QB play, can't get after the passer with regularity and cannot stop the run. What miracle do you expect coaching to do? I think the team overachieved to near .500 records every year.

The problem with that is, because of that we were stuck never being able to get that top flight, top notch blue chipper in the draft when we were a team talent wise as poor as the Rams basically this year.

Marginal role players? You mean guys who weren't used by the staff here, but somehow became starters elsewhere? Leonhard - starter. Haggan - starter. Greer - starter. Hargrove is the only guy who is a "role player," but he still plays a more significant role for the Super Bowl champions than he did for us.

My point is that the coaches did not have the ability to: 1) identify talent, 2) develop that talent, and 3) use that talent on the field. Which is proven by guys who are either misused here or not even given an opportunity to show what they can do in Buffalo...but then are put into a system that they can thrive in elsewhere.

The only time they've really discovered talent is when our team was getting blown out, or when injuries cropped up. Who knows what Jabari Greer would be doing if our CB's hadn't gotten injured that year? Who knows what roster bubble Fred Jackson would be on if the Patriots hadn't handed our butts to us to the tune of 56-10? Who knows how long it would have taken Jairus Byrd to get on the field if our DB's hadn't started going down?

I'm also not a believer in the "Jauron runs soft camps" blame mentality, but the fact that we consistently have 20+ player on IR seems to be a little more than coincidence after 3 years.

[G Wolly]

It's sad to see how many fans still wear the blinders...

It's sad to see someone still trying to defend their post after being opposed by everyone else.

[BertSquirtgum]

Seriously...on this entire roster...there isn't ONE "star" or "elite" player to build a franchise around.

There are a few "good" players, the rest wouldn't even come close to starting on a different team.

All of our "core guys" are average players.

Let's break it down

QB - Edwards (sucks) Fitzpatrick (sucks) Brohm (sucks)

RB - Jackson (Good starter) Lynch (Average)

FB - McIntyre (How is this guy on an NFL roster?)

WR - Evans (average) Hardy (sucks) parrish (sucks) johnson (sucks)

TE - Nelson (average) Schouman (average?)

T - Bell (horrible) Meredith (a decent backup) Green (washed up loser)

G - Wood (average) Levitre (Good Starter)

C - Hangartner (good backup, NOT a starter)

DE - Stroud (average, NEVER played in a 3-4) Edwards (average) Johnson (average, see Stroud)

NT - Williams (good in a 4-3, never has played in a 3-4)

OLB - Mitchell (sucks) Kelsay (sucks, never played a 3-4) Maybin (sucks), Schobel (Probally retired, has never played in a 3-4)

MLB - Poz (Good starter), Davis (average)

CB- McGee (good starter) Florence (Average) McKelvin (?)

FS - Byrd (good starter)

SS - Whitner (sucks)


On paper this is the worst roster in the entire league, and we have the master mind of Chan Gailey getting ready to mold this bunch of has-beens and never-were's into something...

that's real encouraging.

these OPINIONS are why you would never be on an nfl coaching staff

[BertSquirtgum]

can some of the members on here find some way to stop bringing up every single negative aspect of anything that has to do with the bills. it makes me want to puke and i feel bad for you guys. what do you even live for? a paycheck? that sucks. put the razor blades away. it's only a ****ing football team.

[Jan Reimers]

There is some very good talent on our roster. We won 7 games per year despite Jauron's putrid coaching, a clown parade at QB, and 15-20 players on IR. How the HELL do people think we did that?

Some of you completely negative guys, who claim to be "realists," are less objective than the biggest "homers."

[G Wolly]

it's only a ****ing football team.

I agree to a point.

But it's OUR team. That's why we're so critical of the choices that are made.

Although many of them (i.e. this thread) are unnecessary.

[yomommabilly]

There are some players on this team that yes, could play for other teams, a few would even start but beyond that, I agree, its horrible to even go thru the current roster talent wise.

Some mention other teams consistently take average talent and do well with it, we simply are not able to do that. Why is that ? Its anyones guess really, bad ownership sits at the top of my list, putrid coaching is next down the list and horrible horrible decision makers in the FO sits right behind the bad coaching.

I really hate to say it but this team, outside of a lucky win here and there, is not even going to get a sniff at the playoffs until Ralph Wilson is no longer the owner and we all know thats not going to happen until he passes away. I wish no hard luck on Ralph as a matter of fact I admire him in some ways. Got to give the guy credit for reaching the age he is at. He must be doing something right. Still, while he is at the helm this ship called the Buffalo Bills will continue to hit sand bars, lodge itself on reefs, bang against large rocks and get caught in storms that equal or are greater then the " Perfect Storm"

Sorry to be so blunt about it. Until Ralph relinquishes the reigns we will continue to be sold the scrambled mess that manage to put together every year, year after year. Honest, think about it. If I, or anyone else on this board with the exception of some that are narrow minded, were GOOD Unrestricted Free agents and being courted by several teams, would take maybe a little less NOT to play in Buffalo. Crap, top tier free agents and I mean TOP TIER , not the run down old backup washed up FA we get to visit but legitimate TOP TIER FA do not even give us a sniff. Personally, cannot blame them. Sure it may turn around some day but I do not see that happening in the near future, not at all. We are what we are, a middle of the road below average football team and organization.

[justasportsfan]

!

I'm really curious what happens if the bottom falls off and we go 4-12 this year, hypothetically, or worse, does Jauron then get some credit for taking this cast of bums to near .500? Or does Chan Gailey get ostracized even more than Dick did?

.
he does get credit for 3 years of not making .500 . Thats why he's gone.

It also looks like he's the reason for why we have what you call bums . Talk is, he made the palyer decisions and I tend to believe it because Fewell sat Dicks players down when he became the coach. So blame the bums on Dick.

[HHURRICANE]

Seriously...on this entire roster...there isn't ONE "star" or "elite" player to build a franchise around.

There are a few "good" players, the rest wouldn't even come close to starting on a different team.

All of our "core guys" are average players.

Let's break it down

QB - Edwards (sucks) Fitzpatrick (sucks) Brohm (sucks)

RB - Jackson (Good starter) Lynch (Average)

FB - McIntyre (How is this guy on an NFL roster?)

WR - Evans (average) Hardy (sucks) parrish (sucks) johnson (sucks)

TE - Nelson (average) Schouman (average?)

T - Bell (horrible) Meredith (a decent backup) Green (washed up loser)

G - Wood (average) Levitre (Good Starter)

C - Hangartner (good backup, NOT a starter)

DE - Stroud (average, NEVER played in a 3-4) Edwards (average) Johnson (average, see Stroud)

NT - Williams (good in a 4-3, never has played in a 3-4)

OLB - Mitchell (sucks) Kelsay (sucks, never played a 3-4) Maybin (sucks), Schobel (Probally retired, has never played in a 3-4)

MLB - Poz (Good starter), Davis (average)

CB- McGee (good starter) Florence (Average) McKelvin (?)

FS - Byrd (good starter)

SS - Whitner (sucks)


On paper this is the worst roster in the entire league, and we have the master mind of Chan Gailey getting ready to mold this bunch of has-beens and never-were's into something...

that's real encouraging.

I'm throw Spencer Johnson a better grade if used properly but all in all I totally agree. This roster is just terrible.

[HHURRICANE]

There is some very good talent on our roster. We won 7 games per year despite Jauron's putrid coaching, a clown parade at QB, and 15-20 players on IR. How the HELL do people think we did that?

Some of you completely negative guys, who claim to be "realists," are less objective than the biggest "homers."


I actually think decent coaching got 7 wins out of a bunch of losers. For evry game Jauron lost because he was a knuckle head he probably won for having below average players over achieving.

The players packed it in 2009 when Jauron was dead man walking and our entire o-line was cut so Wilson could gas up his 1972 Citation jet.

[Mike]

You have to remember that potential really goes both ways:

You have the potential (possibility) to get better or worst. Players taking steps backwards and regressing is realistic part of the game just ask TE.

So, lets not be one sided when it comes to potential. As far as we know, a guy like Maybin has potential to be a huge bust or a good player, both possibilities are in play. Right now it looks like it may be the former not the later...

So, on paper, we are potentially worse this upcoming season then we were last season...

We may potetially only win 3-4 games...

[G Wolly]

You have to remember that potential really goes both ways:

You have the potential (possibility) to get better or worst. Players taking steps backwards and regressing is realistic part of the game just ask TE.
.

I'll defend Trent here quickly and say that a large part of that was due to his concussion against ARZ. Trent was nowhere near what he was before that. Before he went down we had an actual reason to look forward to each game, maybe he can bounce back but maybe not.

But I overall agree with you.

[Mike]

I agree with you TE analysis

After that hit he regressed big time. I remember that play clearly, as I was watching it from the 50yard line...

That was one of the knocks on TE as he was preparing for the Draft: Many scouts felt that he was not durable... (has only 1 complete season in both College & Pros- has been injured every season but 1)

I also think that DJ's mentality of playing it safe, appealed to our injured QB, so he never got to experiment and truly see what he can do on the field. I think TE plays real scared!

[G Wolly]

Given Chan's previous coaching gigs, he's brought out the best in his guys and got winning results.

I honestly do have a shred of hope left for Trent. Let's see what happens.

[SirMcGee]

YOu just made my point. No matter how good your talent is, a bad coach can set them up to fail. The redskins proved that through the years.

We don't know how good or bad our talent is since they were set up to fail since they were drafted. If they fail with another coach then you can start to assume they suck. Guys like Trent, POZ, Whitner and mostly our young players only played under one crappy coach.

Coaching is only a part of it. No matter how good a coach is, he won't succeed if he doesn't have the players. The way you're talking, coaching is EVERYTHING. It's not.

[G Wolly]

Coaching is only a part of it. No matter how good a coach is, he won't succeed if he doesn't have the players. The way you're talking, coaching is EVERYTHING. It's not.

It's more important to know how to use players than to have the best players.

[Mr. Pink]

he does get credit for 3 years of not making .500 . Thats why he's gone.

It also looks like he's the reason for why we have what you call bums . Talk is, he made the palyer decisions and I tend to believe it because Fewell sat Dicks players down when he became the coach. So blame the bums on Dick.



And talent wise, remember our roster in 2007 for example was even worse than our roster in 2002, we were at best a 3-4 win team.

Dick got more out of his weaker players than Gregg got out of superior players.

Mularkey is still the best coach this team has had in the past decade not that anyone will admit it.

[Mr. Pink]

It's more important to know how to use players than to have the best players.


It is far more important to have talented players than a "talented" coach.

Paul Brown in Cleveland was a genius, terrible in Cincy.

Ditka won a SB in Chicago, nothing in NO.

Gibbs in his first stint with Washington was a winner, was a big loser in his second stint.

Jimmy Johnson was the man in Dallas, was an also ran in Miami.

Did these coaches magically get dumber or did the talent they had get worse?

Easy to figure out.

[Turf]

I think this year we'll find out just how bad the coaching was last year and the year before. Coaching alone cost us 3-4 losses each season in big games no less.

[justasportsfan]

The way you're talking, coaching is EVERYTHING. It's not.
What are you talking about? You're a newbie and you don't know my opinions on coaching. I have always maintained that it's at least 50/50 as far as importance of Coach and talent is concerned. I was addressing FTY opinion regarding Dick didn't hold back the talent on this team.

[justasportsfan]

And talent wise, remember our roster in 2007 for example was even worse than our roster in 2002, we were at best a 3-4 win team.. the bills and the AFCE of 2007 were not the same in 2002 .

If you want to go that route then I will make a comparison thats more relevant or more comparable.

One can argue and the team was better or at least just as good when Fewell took over as HC. Let's not forget that Fewell had a crappie line-up than Dick. That is proof that Dick held this team back.


Dick got more out of his weaker players than Gregg got out of superior players.. Again, the AFCE was different during Greg's time. Since you bring up Greg's name, how did the Saints finally get over the hump and win the SB? They brought in a COACH to improve their D. You can use Vilma all you want but Vilma was a nobody under Mangini. Mangini didn't know how to use him.



Mularkey is still the best coach this team has had in the past decade not that anyone will admit it.
What does this have to do with Dick?

The fins went from 1-15 to making the playoffs in one year and it had mostly to do with coaching. Dick hasn't beaten the PAts and the fins swept the Pats using the wildcat in their first year of rebuild. The fins have nothing in terms of weapons compared to the bills with LYnch/Jackson , Lee/TO. The coaching staff did a great job designing a system that made Chad the comeback player of the year IN HIS FIRST YEAR with the fins with nothing but GInn as his weapon. Mangini couldn't do that with Chad.