Another reason to not draft Tebow [Archive] - BillsZone.com

tampabay25690

03-23-2010, 06:50 PM

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/23/tebows-pre-wonderlic-prayer-request-falls-flat/

Let's face it. Religion is weird. I'm not here to get in a huge debate with any of you, you all have the right to believe whatever the hell you want. I support that. But the most obnoxious thing in the world a person can do, in my opinion, is shove their religion up my ass.

Tebow asking everybody to pray before the Wonderlic is a perfect example of just super obnoxious religious promotion. I can't stand that shnizzle. And although I totally support a persons right to practice their religion and I respect it, if your at the Wonderlic test and having everybody pray is the first thing on your mind, then your mind is not on football.

Tebow is out to make a political statement. Imagine people like him that you've met and how well they fit in the work place or at school. Not well. Not these days. This kid will come in doing obnoxious crap.

I imagine the coach giving a rah rah speach and then Tebow jumping in at the end ok guys let's all pray together. BUZZZZZZKIILLLLLLL!!

A guy needs to fit in. This is the NFL. In college, Tebow was Meyer's boy. Everybody knew it, so they just let it be. That won't happen in the pro's.

OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.....WTF, I wonder what goes in some peoples minds when they post..

Tourettes Guy

03-23-2010, 06:51 PM

"shove their religion up my ass" = "have it mentioned in any way that I can read or hear"

pussy :rolleyes:

No, I'll give you an example. I hired a kid last week and I mentioned that I was feeling under the weather. All I do is train them for a week and send them out to the work force. But anyway, he was obnoxious about religion.

Anything you mention oh I know god will help me do that or god will help me do this. And then when he's leaving "Can I pray for you would that be ok"

WEIRD!

Tebow is going to come in to what ever team he's drafted by with a sense of entitlement and he's going to be shoving religion in every direction. This is about football, not religion. They are separate things. Some coaches pray, some players play, some don't. IDK, he's over the top and will rub people the wrong way, IMO.

rcd333

03-23-2010, 06:53 PM

this story is hard to believe

would a player tell another player to shut the **** up at the scouting combine of all places.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 07:08 PM

This whole "religion in sports" thing bothers me to no end, as though God favors one team over another. The best sport this happens is with boxing...is a boxer to bow his head in prayer to God to give him the strength to beat the ever-loving crap out of the other guy? This happens.

Kurt Warner always bothered me in that respect, even though he was a great player and I'm a fan. When he retired, he was amazed that God "chose him" to fulfill this fantastic football career, as though God likes him a lot more than Trent Edwards or whoever.

This is really amazing to me.

"F-you" indeed, Tebow. Right on. This whole thing is about beating the other guy, so you can't pray for everybody. This is not Seseme Street. This type of behvior is too often labelled as "class." It's probably meant in that vein, but it's hypocritical, and I don't like it.

On the other hand, what's the difference when we all wind up in heaven...or dead and rotting in the ground.

This is how I feel about that.

BillsWin

03-23-2010, 07:10 PM

this story is hard to believe

would a player tell another player to shut the **** up at the scouting combine of all places.
No. They would have to be one huge douche.

But then again, players these days have huge egos and even bigger attitudes.

Now, should Tebow (if the story is even true) have tried to "force" (for lack of a better word) his religion on a room full of strangers, before a ****ing intelligence test?

NO.

The wonderlic test is not a "group prayer" moment in my opinion. And I have embraced God in my life and do consider myself a man of faith. So this isn't coming from someone completely adverse to religion.

psubills62

03-23-2010, 07:13 PM

Sounds to me, from looking at some of the scores, that a lot of those players could have used prayer.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 07:32 PM

Tourettes Guy

03-23-2010, 07:33 PM

Don't you think that he's going to come in as a rookie and and overstep his boundaries? The guy seems like the type to come in and act all entitled as if he's serving some higher purpose than everybody else.

Distractions. It's BS. A guy like Joe Flacco is exactly what is going to be the QB of the future. Just no personality whatsoever. Tom Brady, Matty Ice, and Peyton unless he's in a commercial. Just no personality. They don't try to have some big greater purpose. They just play football and cash checks. And polish trophies. Not Matt Ryan or Flacco but you get my point.

This guy just brings so much baggage. I don't think he'd play good enough to make it worth it.

T-Long

03-23-2010, 07:42 PM

hey Tourette's guy...

"Why don't you make like a banana...and ****!!!!"

psubills62

03-23-2010, 07:47 PM

The thing about "religious people" is that, if you don't agree with their beliefs, you know deep down that they believe you to be ignorant. The same applies to unreligious folks. The thing to me, being an athiest, is that the burden of proof lies on those making the claim...and since it's based on faith, there is by definition no need of proof. That's pretty irritating. With all due respect to the believers, keep that stuff in your house and in your church. Don't spread it to the workplace, whatever you do, because it's condescending to those "unbelievers" by very nature. It's unintentional, I'm sure, but that doesn't change what it is.

I can only take so much. I'll pray to win the lottery, make a wish on my birthday, or whatever, but I don't like these things. I won't try to stop it or say anything to those that express themselves this way...I just shut my mouth until it's over and reality makes it's case.
Haha yeah, I think in those first couple sentences, you described pretty much everyone on earth, not just religious people.

The way I see it, people who are atheist are also making a claim - that there is no God, and that the world came about by chance. I would agree that people who believe in God are also making a claim. But while we don't have proof, I believe there is a lot of evidence for God.

EDIT: I'm not trying to get into a whole debate, I'm just stating my case.

See...you pray when you really want something. So to me, it really shouldn't be a big deal if someone else just wants to pray for something. Whether or not you agree with it, how does it hurt anything if someone wants to pray?

Like I said, I think some of those kids could have used the help of God :wink:

PECKERWOOD

03-23-2010, 07:53 PM

Hey Tourrettes Guy... "*****, I love you...."

k-oneputt

03-23-2010, 07:59 PM

I'm not surprised at all that this happened to Tebow.
Remember he wasn't on the Florida campus around his Florida teammates. I'm sure they could care less about TT. They are probably sick of seeing it for the last four years on tv. I definitely think it will be an issue in an NFL lockerroom if he doesn't tone it down. Either that or he had better be balling so good that they can't say s*** to him like at Florida.

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 07:59 PM

Right...

Because being really religious and wearing it on his sleeve kept Kurt Warner from being accepted by his teammates.

And players were so offended by Reggie White ministering that they shunned him.

No other NFL players are going to care one way or another if Tebow is religious or not. There are guys who are and guys who aren't in an NFL lockerroom, and there has been for some time (maybe you missed those prayer circles of players from both teams at mid-field after almost every NFL game). Ultimately, it will come down to whether he can help them win games or not, the other stuff is just fluff.

I doubt, given how big a player he was in college, that this was the first time Tebow has dealt with people being sarcastic about his outward displays of religiosity. His leadership and intangibles are unquestioned traits, so something tells me it doesn't interfere with his getting along with his teammates. Guys seemed to play well enough for him at Florida.

I don't know if Tebow's skills will translate to whether he can play QB at an NFL-level. There are definitely questions about that. However, I'm pretty sure his religion is going to have zero impact on that. None.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:00 PM

Haha yeah, I think in those first couple sentences, you described pretty much everyone on earth, not just religious people.

The way I see it, people who are atheist are also making a claim - that there is no God, and that the world came about by chance. I would agree that people who believe in God are also making a claim. But while we don't have proof, I believe there is a lot of evidence for God.

EDIT: I'm not trying to get into a whole debate, I'm just stating my case.

See...you pray when you really want something. So to me, it really shouldn't be a big deal if someone else just wants to pray for something. Whether or not you agree with it, how does it hurt anything if someone wants to pray?

Like I said, I think some of those kids could have used the help of God :wink:

I believe that I said that both sides of the debate believe the same ignorance of the other side. I made that a point to say that. To me, praying is the same as wishing for good luck. I don't care who does it.

What DOES bother me is when somebody draws in a group of diversified people trying to pawn off his religion on everybody. "In the name of Christ, let's kick the hell out of these fellow human beings, some of whom are Christians?" BS. Whoever calls people on that are likely to be ousted from "the club" in certain ways, so they get down on their knees anyway. Meanwhile, if the athiests take control, there would be a huge problem...I could see a fist-fight initiated by the Christians.

Like you said, there is no harm in it...but my point is, basically, if you are going to pray, do it on your own. There are plenty of "macho" way to get together, and let's face it, football is all about being macho.

And, if you don't want a debate, it's too late.

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 08:03 PM

And, if you don't want a debate, it's too late.

It is also the wrong forum. This isn't the appropriate place.

T-Long

03-23-2010, 08:05 PM

Hey Tourrettes Guy... "*****, I love you...."
don't do that! He just PM'ed me tearing me a new one for quoting the real Tourettes Guy!

psubills62

03-23-2010, 08:16 PM

I believe that I said that both sides of the debate believe the same ignorance of the other side. I made that a point to say that. To me, praying is the same as wishing for good luck. I don't care who does it.

What DOES bother me is when somebody draws in a group of diversified people trying to pawn off his religion on everybody. "In the name of Christ, let's kick the hell out of these fellow human beings, some of whom are Christians?" BS. Whoever calls people on that are likely to be ousted from "the club" in certain ways, so they get down on their knees anyway. Meanwhile, if the athiests take control, there would be a huge problem...I could see a fist-fight initiated by the Christians.

Like you said, there is no harm in it...but my point is, basically, if you are going to pray, do it on your own. There are plenty of "macho" way to get together, and let's face it, football is all about being macho.

And, if you don't want a debate, it's too late.

I don't think that what Tebow did is really classified as "pawn[ing] off his religion on everybody." It's not like he was trying to convert people. He just wanted to pray for the performance on the test.

If there's no harm in it...then what's wrong with trying to include other people? I wouldn't, but that's just my personality. Tebow doesn't seem to be afraid of being shot down or offending people.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:16 PM

Right...

Because being really religious and wearing it on his sleeve kept Kurt Warner from being accepted by his teammates.

And players were so offended by Reggie White ministering that they shunned him..

I don't care if my player is a communist if he is going into the Hall of Fame. Football is football. Religion belongs somewhere outside that. Let's bring politics into it while we're at it. Let's bring abortion issues, race, gay rights, and any number of controversial issues into it.

Let's divide the locker-room. Better yet, let's just stick to football. I hate it when players thank God for letting them win. Apparently, God hates Buffalo, and we deserve it. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk: I'm just being upfront.

No other NFL players are going to care one way or another if Tebow is religious or not. There are guys who are and guys who aren't in an NFL lockerroom, and there has been for some time (maybe you missed those prayer circles of players from both teams at mid-field after almost every NFL game). Ultimately, it will come down to whether he can help them win games or not, the other stuff is just fluff...

This is true.

Truthfully, I don't think that anybody will call him out for his religion even if he sucks. These players have their own careers to think about. The last thing you want to do is piss off the NFL Christian community...if only for your own good.

I doubt, given how big a player he was in college, that this was the first time Tebow has dealt with people being sarcastic about his outward displays of religiosity. His leadership and intangibles are unquestioned traits, so something tells me it doesn't interfere with his getting along with his teammates. Guys seemed to play well enough for him at Florida.

I don't know if Tebow's skills will translate to whether he can play QB at an NFL-level. There are definitely questions about that. However, I'm pretty sure his religion is going to have zero impact on that. None.

IMO, nobody should try to influence anybody else's religious beliefs. If Tebow thinks that he is going to spend enternity sitting on a cloud being fed plump grapes by naked women, that's his business. I beg to differ and say so. I'd say it right to his face if it came to that, but there is no reason to get your panties in a bunch over it.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:17 PM

It is also the wrong forum. This isn't the appropriate place.

You have something better to talk about?

I didn't put this thread in this forum.

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 08:22 PM

IMO, nobody should try to influence anybody else's religious beliefs. If Tebow thinks that he is going to spend enternity sitting on a cloud being fed plump grapes by naked women, that's his business. I beg to differ and say so. I'd say it right to his face if it came to that, but there is no reason to get your panties in a bunch over it.

OK, but whether people expressing their religious beliefs publicly is right or not, the argument is whether it will effect his ability to succeed as an NFL player. I suggest, given the history of other players who are outwardly religious, that isn't true.

Ultimately, whether he succeeds as an NFL player or not will come down to whether he can play at a high level. The other stuff won't matter.

If you want to argue about whether a person has a right to be as outwardly religious as Tebow, or whether he is misguided, then there are forums for that. This isn't it, though.

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 08:22 PM

You have something better to talk about?

I didn't put this thread in this forum.

The thread is whether his religious beliefs will effect his ability to play in the NFL. It isn't debating religion.

justasportsfan

03-23-2010, 08:23 PM

I don't care if my player is a communist if he is going into the Hall of Fame. Football is football. Religion belongs somewhere outside that. Let's bring politics into it while we're at it. .
that's double standards. Both religion and politics are beliefs. One religious and the other political belief.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:25 PM

I don't think that what Tebow did is really classified as "pawn[ing] off his religion on everybody." It's not like he was trying to convert people. He just wanted to pray for the performance on the test.

If there's no harm in it...then what's wrong with trying to include other people? I wouldn't, but that's just my personality. Tebow doesn't seem to be afraid of being shot down or offending people.

Sorry if I misspoke. I was speaking generally and not about just Tebow and what he did. I wasn't there, so I can't speak of that.

I don't really care all that much, brother. I'm just saying what I think. Troy Polamalu is a die-hard Christian, and I'd have him on my team in a heartbeat. I have friends that are Christians. I have friends that believe the craziest things. I've been around and am not a kid. The best way for me to get along with people is to not bring these things up.

I don't like feeling like an outsider when people state their unfounded beliefs as though they are proven facts...all I'm saying. Be offended if you want by that, but I'll just come back stronger.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:28 PM

The thread is whether his religious beliefs will effect his ability to play in the NFL. It isn't debating religion.

How interesting is THAT topic.

OK.

NO...capital N-O. It will not affect his ability to play in the NFL.

End of topic. End of thread.

Which direction did you realistically expect this thread to take?

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 08:33 PM

How interesting is THAT topic.

OK.

NO...capital N-O. It will not affect his ability to play in the NFL.

End of topic. End of thread.

Which direction did you realistically expect this thread to take?

I understand it is a hot button issue. I'm not trying to single you out, and this wouldn't be the first time a thread went off in a different direction. I am just pointing out this isn't the place for it. There are other forums for that.

This is the football forum, so if a thread were to head off in that direction I would hope it be moved. In fact, given how good the moderators have been about doing just that, I think it would be moved.

Again, I'm not upset about it, and it certainly wouldn't be the first thread to go off-topic.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:33 PM

that's double standards. Both religion and politics are beliefs. One religious and the other political belief.

No, actually it's not a double-standard. Thank you for clearing up the difference between political and religious beliefs, though.

America is about diversity.

I just want a good football team.

Also, I'm a firm believer that Tebow is not the answer based on his NFL potential as I see it alone.

Maybe you got the wrong idea, but I never said that I don't accept anybody that doesn't think like me.

T-Long

03-23-2010, 08:35 PM

Actually the mods here are allowing religious beliefs to be put in people's signatures. So, I guess this IS the place to post your beliefs. Crazy.

T-Long

03-23-2010, 08:36 PM

I just want a good football team.
:beers:

justasportsfan

03-23-2010, 08:38 PM

No, actually it's not a double-standard. Thank you for clearing up the difference between political and religious beliefs, though.

America is about diversity.

I just want a good football team.

Also, I'm a firm believer that Tebow is not the answer based on his NFL potential as I see it alone.

Maybe you got the wrong idea, but I never said that I don't accept anybody that doesn't think like me.

how can you not care if one is a communist but care if one is Christian? Why does one belong and the other doesn't? :idunno:

SirMcGee

03-23-2010, 08:39 PM

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/23/tebows-pre-wonderlic-prayer-request-falls-flat/

Let's face it. Religion is weird. I'm not here to get in a huge debate with any of you, you all have the right to believe whatever the hell you want. I support that. But the most obnoxious thing in the world a person can do, in my opinion, is shove their religion up my ass.

Tebow asking everybody to pray before the Wonderlic is a perfect example of just super obnoxious religious promotion. I can't stand that shnizzle. And although I totally support a persons right to practice their religion and I respect it, if your at the Wonderlic test and having everybody pray is the first thing on your mind, then your mind is not on football.

Tebow is out to make a political statement. Imagine people like him that you've met and how well they fit in the work place or at school. Not well. Not these days. This kid will come in doing obnoxious crap.

I imagine the coach giving a rah rah speach and then Tebow jumping in at the end ok guys let's all pray together. BUZZZZZZKIILLLLLLL!!

A guy needs to fit in. This is the NFL. In college, Tebow was Meyer's boy. Everybody knew it, so they just let it be. That won't happen in the pro's.

This is the most idiotic and ignorant comment somebody can possibly make. WTF does religion have to do with this??? I guess if you're religious, you can't do anything right

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:43 PM

I understand it is a hot button issue. I'm not trying to single you out, and this wouldn't be the first time a thread went off in a different direction. I am just pointing out this isn't the place for it. There are other forums for that.

This is the football forum, so if a thread were to head off in that direction I would hope it be moved. In fact, given how good the moderators have been about doing just that, I think it would be moved.

Again, I'm not upset about it, and it certainly wouldn't be the first thread to go off-topic.

I hear you too, but the discussion went the way it did.

If you don't want me to continue my admittedly pointless tirade, then go elsewhere.

I'm not upset, either.

On the other hand, I don't see how a subject such as this can be considered irrelevent. It certainly IS. It may be taboo to certain folks, but it certainly ties into the NFL and the players, coaches, and owners than comprise it.

Can't see how you can claim otherwise.

It's so slow this time of year that there would be a ten-page thread if it was found out that Lynch was a Buddhist. What if a player were in the league whose religion was Rastafari (like Bob Marley), which smoking weed was a part of?

When does religion and football become a compatable topic within this forum?

I happen to think that it's a worthwhile topic right here, at least as much as Porter signs with Cardinals or Delhomme signs with Browns.

Tourettes Guy

03-23-2010, 08:47 PM

The thread is whether his religious beliefs will effect his ability to play in the NFL. It isn't debating religion.

Oh for crying out loud! I said bacon and eggs!

But I digress, this thread is not about whether his religious beliefs will effect his ability to play. This thread is about whether his forcing his religion on other people and, to me, his feeling that he's someone special with a special agenda will allow him to fit in.

On the field, I don't think he's a quarterback. But back to the wonderlic example.

He makes the scene of telling everybody to pray. That means, when he walked into the building he wasn't thinking "Man I'm gonna ace this test" he was thinking "I'm gonna get everybody to pray". That's how I take it.

Then when the test starts for the first few you questions, he's reenacting the previous scene in his head. Admit it, if you were to do something similar, it'd be on your mind for a few minutes if you just sit down and start doing a test.

And then his score sucked.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:47 PM

how can you not care if one is a communist but care if one is Christian? Why does one belong and the other doesn't? :idunno:

I don't really care if one is a communist OR a Christian as long as he's a good player; that was my point. It's just a different way of thinking. If he's not a good player, I don't care if he agrees with me on every single thing under the Sun...I don't want him on my team. Not so difficult to understand.

You got the wrong idea about what I said.

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 08:50 PM

It's so slow this time of year that there would be a ten-page thread if it was found out that Lynch was a Buddhist. What if a player were in the league whose religion was Rastafari (like Bob Marley), which smoking weed was a part of?

Well, I would think Bills fans would be excited if Lynch became a Buddhist. After all, look at how it straightened out Tiger Woods.

If a player failed a drug test, it wouldn't matter what religion he was. Ask Ricky Williams.

Tourettes Guy

03-23-2010, 08:53 PM

This is the most idiotic and ignorant comment somebody can possibly make. WTF does religion have to do with this??? I guess if you're religious, you can't do anything right

Your missing my point.

He's going to be an bible thumping ego maniac. He's the biggest college football star in recent years. He's going to push his ideals on his teamates, and probably overstep the role a rookie should have.

I'm not trying to have a religious conversation, as I said in the beginning. I'm more trying to say he's an ego maniac who'll push his BS on other people, and nobody will like him.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 08:53 PM

He makes the scene of telling everybody to pray. That means, when he walked into the building he wasn't thinking "Man I'm gonna ace this test" he was thinking "I'm gonna get everybody to pray". That's how I take it.

Who knows, dude?

Maybe he was thinking that everyone was rooting for each other and was acting on that thought. If so, he has a lot to learn. This isn't Florida anymore. This is soon-to-be the NFL, where the other team wants to kill you, figuratively speaking of course.

It's a cutthroat business in the end, and he should know that. Nobody is sitting there holding hands and singing kumbaya. A lot of people hate the players on their own team, so, on second thought, maybe he'd better pray.

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 08:57 PM

But I digress, this thread is not about whether his religious beliefs will effect his ability to play. This thread is about whether his forcing his religion on other people and, to me, his feeling that he's someone special with a special agenda will allow him to fit in.

However, other guys have been very religious before him, and been very outward about it.

Kurt Warner would organize prayer circles with teammates and invite them to Bible Study.

Reggie White was an ordained minister who would try to intervene with players who were troubled and try to get them to use religion as a way to better themselves.

They could play, though.

The point is, you don't think Tebow has learned to deal with this dynamic already? Part of being a leader is knowing how to get along with the various factions in the lockerroom. Tebow excelled at this at Florida.

You are trying to create an image of Tebow as some Jesus-nut who will force stuff on players and they will hate him for it. However, that was not an issue at Florida and won't be in the NFL. The kid has great intangibles, he knows how to lead.

Whether he can play is up for debate, but the idea of his religious beliefs being a divisive force with his teammates is a non-starter. He wouldn't have been as successful as he is if he couldn't manage that.

SirMcGee

03-23-2010, 08:59 PM

Your missing my point.

He's going to be an bible thumping ego maniac. He's the biggest college football star in recent years. He's going to push his ideals on his teamates, and probably overstep the role a rookie should have.

I'm not trying to have a religious conversation, as I said in the beginning. I'm more trying to say he's an ego maniac who'll push his BS on other people, and nobody will like him.

Noo no... i fully understood what you were saying, and it doesn't change my views on you and your ignorant comments. The fact that you even brought religion to this in the first place makes you ignorant.

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 08:59 PM

Your missing my point.

He's going to be an bible thumping ego maniac. He's the biggest college football star in recent years. He's going to push his ideals on his teamates, and probably overstep the role a rookie should have.

I'm not trying to have a religious conversation, as I said in the beginning. I'm more trying to say he's an ego maniac who'll push his BS on other people, and nobody will like him.

Of course, there is no actual evidence that this is true.

The one unquestioned thing about the kid is his ability to lead a football team. Whether he has the skills to play is a question, but I haven't heard one person evaluate him that doesn't rate his leadership and intangibles off the charts.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 09:06 PM

However, other guys have been very religious before him, and been very outward about it.

Kurt Warner would organize prayer circles with teammates and invite them to Bible Study.

Reggie White was an ordained minister who would try to intervene with players who were troubled and try to get them to use religion as a way to better themselves.

They could play, though.

The point is, you don't think Tebow has learned to deal with this dynamic already? Part of being a leader is knowing how to get along with the various factions in the lockerroom. Tebow excelled at this at Florida.

You are trying to create an image of Tebow as some Jesus-nut who will force stuff on players and they will hate him for it. However, that was not an issue at Florida and won't be in the NFL. The kid has great intangibles, he knows how to lead.

Whether he can play is up for debate, but the idea of his religious beliefs being a divisive force with his teammates is a non-starter. He wouldn't have been as successful as he is if he couldn't manage that.

The fact is that Tebow is going to have to prove to be the franchise QB BEFORE he tries any of the crap that Warner and White did.

I personally don't think that he will ever reach the level of success to become a leader anywhere. Nobody is going to care what he thinks until he proves himself a franchise QB in this league. College and the NFL are two different things entirely. Being successful in college DOES NOT automatically equate to being successful in the NFL.

Tebow is most likely to be lost in the shuffle for a couple of few years. The guy on the bench is never the leader. Do you really think that Tebow is going to start somewhere this year?

Ickybaluky

03-23-2010, 09:23 PM

The fact is that Tebow is going to have to prove to be the franchise QB BEFORE he tries any of the crap that Warner and White did.

I personally don't think that he will ever reach the level of success to become a leader anywhere. Nobody is going to care what he thinks until he proves himself a franchise QB in this league. College and the NFL are two different things entirely. Being successful in college DOES NOT automatically equate to being successful in the NFL.

Tebow is most likely to be lost in the shuffle for a couple of few years. The guy on the bench is never the leader. Do you really think that Tebow is going to start somewhere this year?

I agree that he will have to play well, but that is my point. In the end, his religion won't matter one iota whether he is successful or not. If he fails, it will be about his ability, not his religion or his teammates hating him or anything. Of course, you already agreed with that so it is superfluous.

As to your last question, I don't think Tebow is ready to start. He may come in as a wildcat guy, but if he makes it as a QB it will take him some time to adjust to the NFL game. He has a long way to go, not only with his mechanics but with reading defenses and running a pro offense. I know everyone gushes about his work ethic, and I think his attitude and intangibles are as high as you can rate them, but other guys were hard workers. It isn't just working hard.

Tebow is a hard guy to classify. On one hand, I don't like the history of success for guys like him. Early on, I saw him as a good conversion prospect at TE, maybe a mid-round pick because of his great intangibles and athleticism. Lately, I rate him higher, although it could just be getting caught up in the hype.

I won't completely rule out his being able to play QB in the NFL. There are too many people who know what they are talking about who give him a chance. I think he goes in the 2nd round, and I think someone gives him a chance to play QB. I won't rule out that he can do it, but I still see a TE when I look at him. I do think he can make that conversion and be very good at it, which mitigates the risk on him.

Mad Bomber

03-23-2010, 09:26 PM

Anything you mention oh I know god will help me do that or god will help me do this. And then when he's leaving "Can I pray for you would that be ok"

WEIRD!

How is someone asking you "can I pray for you" being obnoxious? If he said "you're a sinner and you're going to HELL!!!!", that would be obnoxious. This person believes that prayer can make a difference, and was actually showing that he cares for you.

Lighten up.

JCBills

03-23-2010, 09:47 PM

Philagape

03-23-2010, 09:50 PM

Sounds like some tolerance is in order.

feldspar

03-23-2010, 10:19 PM

A lot of NFL players are extremely religious, that being said....

None seem so bent on imposing their beliefs on everyone else as Tim Tebow.

It creates a high level of discomfort, even to those who are religious, but not devout.

Thank you. That about sums it up. When a person asks me to get on my knees and pray to Jesus, it's hard to describe how awkward that is. You want to respect them, explain to them that you're not like that, and punch them in the head all at the same time.

If it's about a football game, forget it.

JCBills

03-23-2010, 10:47 PM

Thank you. That about sums it up. When a person asks me to get on my knees and pray to Jesus, it's hard to describe how awkward that is. You want to respect them, explain to them that you're not like that, and punch them in the head all at the same time.

If it's about a football game, forget it.
LOL so true.

I guess most would call me an atheist now, but even when I was a kid forced to go to Catholic school (in Orchard Park lol), I thought Jehovah's Witnesses were the creepiest people, they reminded me of the people from Children of the Corn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv6FlS0xxDA

feldspar

03-23-2010, 11:21 PM

Sounds like some tolerance is in order.

There is plenty of tolerance here. There is no screaming in other people's faces about what they should think.

Ask anybody about religion, and his response is bound to come across as intolerant to someone else. That's actually part of the point.

To those that believe in God and think about Him always, athiests or agnostics seem ignorant. Depending on the personality, they will try to get under your skin as much as they can about it; either that, or totally dismiss you as ignorant. "I hope you will see the light and truth some day" is entirely antagonizing.

The same thing works the other way. Maybe I misspoke before, but I'm more of an agnostic than an athiest. Sorry, but the Chrisitian faith has no proof behind it. It's based on faith in a book written by who? As far as I'm concerned, the burden of proof is on THEM. I think it's a fairy tale. There, I said it. If anybody has anything to say about that, please don't quote the scriptures as proof. It's redundant...God exists because God says so. I read it. My mom and dad told me, and my neighbor vouches for it.

I have plenty of tolerance for it, but I also have my opinion. Also, Christians don't have a monopoly on Christian values.

I actually go to church every Christmas Eve out of respect to certain members of my family...and I do show respect, mainly by kneeling, sitting, standing up again, and keeping my mouth shut.

psubills62

03-23-2010, 11:53 PM

There is plenty of tolerance here. There is no screaming in other people's faces about what they should think.

But apparently it's OK to tell us what we should do?

keep that stuff in your house and in your church. Don't spread it to the workplace

Sorry, but the Bible tells us to spread our faith. Should it be done in a condescending way? Not at all, and I don't agree with doing it in such a way. At the same time, it seems to me (and this thread is a good example of it) that people tend to pigeonhole Christians as arrogant and condescending simply because we try to share our faith.

Christianity, by its definition, is infused in every part of our lives. I agree with you that God doesn't care who wins or loses football games. But I'd guess that in general, that's not what Tebow prays for. I would hope that he prays to play to the best of his ability, and that his work ethic and his deeds will stand as a testament to Christ.

JCBills

03-24-2010, 12:47 AM

But apparently it's OK to tell us what we should do?

Sorry, but the Bible tells us to spread our faith. Should it be done in a condescending way? Not at all, and I don't agree with doing it in such a way. At the same time, it seems to me (and this thread is a good example of it) that people tend to pigeonhole Christians as arrogant and condescending simply because we try to share our faith.

Christianity, by its definition, is infused in every part of our lives. I agree with you that God doesn't care who wins or loses football games. But I'd guess that in general, that's not what Tebow prays for. I would hope that he prays to play to the best of his ability, and that his work ethic and his deeds will stand as a testament to Christ.

Oh man, if we're really going to get into a religious discussion, it can be broken down to how Christianity is a sad parody of pagan beliefs, but I don't anyone wants to have it go there lol.

The Bible also tells followers to do a lot of other things beside spread their views, as well as specific ways to spread them.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16. It's one of the most widely-quoted Bible verses there are. It's been called "the Gospel in a nutshell", for its succinct summary of the New Testament's "message".
A verse as vital and revered as John 3:16 deserves proper examination in the light of the rest of Holy Scripture. Let's place it into the wider context of the entire Bible:
"For God so loved the world, that he...
Decreed sickness, painful childbirth, and death for all descendents of Adam and Eve;
Drowned every man, woman, and innocent child on Earth, save a handful;
Slaughtered every man, woman, and innocent child in Sodom and Gomorrah;
Murdered countless babies in Egypt to impress a Pharoah;
Explicitly allowed and even commanded slavery, the beating and murder of slaves, and the rape of slaves;
Ordered the execution of homosexuals, disobedient children, stubborn sons, blasphemers, non-believers, "witches", adulterers, complainers, anyone ignoring a priest or judge, anyone working on the Sabbath, anyone touching Mt Sinai, any woman whose father cannot produce bloody sheets as proof of marriage-night virginity, and any betrothed virgin who is raped but doesn't protest loudly enough;
Repeatedly commanded his people to capture and rape women after battles;
Established a law requiring that rape victims marry their rapists;
Killed 24,000 Israelites by plague, stopping only when Phinehas pleased God by murdering an interracial couple;
Commanded the Israelites to slay all Midianites, including women and innocent children – except for 32,000 virgins, who were to be saved for raping;
Commanded the Levites to attack each other, resulting in the deaths of 3000;
Allowed Lot to give up his daughters to a mob of rapists; Caleb to give away his daughter as a battle prize; and a concubine owner to give his concubine to a mob of rapists (after which she dies and is dismembered);
Allowed His various champions to rip the flesh off captives; kill 69 brothers "upon one stone"; bring down a building on 3000 men and women; massacre inhabitants of cities with saws and axes; and throw 10,000 captives off a cliff;
Commanded Joshua to kill all peoples of all lands he visited, including women and innocent children, as well as kill all livestock and burn all cities;
Ordered that all Samaritans be killed by the sword, with infants dashed to pieces and pregant women ripped apart;
Commanded and aided massacres of men, women, children, and infants among the Caananites, Bethelites, Moabites, Philistines, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, Amelekites, Midianites, Succothites, Sihonites, Benjamites, Ammorites, Syrians, Assyrians, Edomites, Heshbonites, the city of Nob, the city of Ninevah, the town of Laish, the house of Jeroboam, the house of Baal, the house of Baasha, foreigners in Samaria, Hagarites, Hazorites, Jebusites, Ethiopians, Babylonians, and Israelites;
Directly murdered people Himself for reasons including masturbation; refusal to strike a prophet; believing a lying prophet; looking into the ark; attempting to save the ark from a fall; and "offering strange fire";
Murdered the wives, sons, and small children of men who argued with Moses, along with 250 bystanders;
Sent bears to slaughter 42 children who laughed at a priest's bald head;
Killed Job's children, slaves, and animals as part of a game;
Repeatedly punished children for sins of parents or even earlier generations;
Vowed to use lies and stumbling blocks to lure people into unrighteousness, then damn them eternally for it;
Inflicted various peoples with curses including pestilence, leprosy, fever, mildew, hemmorrhoids, locusts, itching, blindness, dead livestock, slavery, madness, worms, burning, thirst, baldness, miscarriages, famine, hail, and fruitless olive trees;
Delivered a plague that caused women to boil and eat their children;
Welcomed human sacrifice, including Jephthah's burning of his innocent daughter; the Moab king's burning of his son; Josiah's offerings of burnt priests; and Abraham's willingness to slit a child's throat."Now I don't think we want Tebow pressing his beliefs on others, unless the franchise is able to command pestilence over the Patriots. But if we're going by what The Bible says is ok.....

JCBills

03-24-2010, 12:53 AM

Here's another reason not to draft him:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/users/photos/000/172/734/Tim_Tebow_profile_page.jpg

kernowboy

03-24-2010, 03:41 AM

I think it probably did happen as it reported. Kids are about to take their most important test ever and under pressure, if someone piped up with something they didn't want to hear, then its quite possible someone reacted.

However the concern for any team is that drafting Tebow means they will be surrounded by this media circus that he seems to attract which cannot help being a distraction and possibly causing a reaction.

If he is drafting in the first two rounds, then its possible he feels he can vocally express his opinions from the get go, which may well offend some of the grown men around him in the locker room or certainly irritate them.

Coming from a country that might be deemed non-religious, certainly one where religion plays a far smaller part in life, those who are Christians temper their desire to share their beliefs with others unless the moment is appropriate, and I don't think Tebow has the background to have developed this experience. I cannot belief he wouldn't try to intrude upon the personal life of a team mate if there was a decision his team mate was considering which might impact on Tebow's personal beliefs, almost in the mode of missionary.

Whilst Tebow might have great intangibles on the field, this action and how it has been reported does illustrate that their are external risks about Tebow which need to be closely considered and in many ways it can be said that allowing himself to be championed by Christian groups means he has brought this media circus on himself.

feldspar

03-24-2010, 03:45 AM

But apparently it's OK to tell us what we should do?

Never told anybody what to think or do...only offered my opinion. Obviously, I think I'm right. Take it or leave it. Thanks for playing.

Sorry, but the Bible tells us to spread our faith. Should it be done in a condescending way? Not at all, and I don't agree with doing it in such a way. At the same time, it seems to me (and this thread is a good example of it) that people tend to pigeonhole Christians as arrogant and condescending simply because we try to share our faith..

No, you think you "KNOW" and I don't, simply because of what's written in some book. Now tell me that you don't think that I'm ignorant to the truth of life and what lies behind it if I don't agree with you. THAT'S what I'm talking about. You can't help but harbor those ideas if you truly "believe." So, at a basic level, you really HAVE to be condescending because you really can't help it. The pity of it all...the pity that I haven't learned "the truth." THAT'S antagonizing. THAT'S annoying. I would pretty much label that cult activity. Hide it all you want, but it's there.

Own up to that and we can be friends. Deny it, and I'll think you have some issues. "Share your faith" with somebody that already agrees. I figure it to be a strange widespread form of brainwashing. What do you think about that?

Christianity, by its definition, is infused in every part of our lives. I agree with you that God doesn't care who wins or loses football games. But I'd guess that in general, that's not what Tebow prays for. I would hope that he prays to play to the best of his ability, and that his work ethic and his deeds will stand as a testament to Christ.

Christ has been dead for 2,000 years. He was a man, a martyr. A whole ridiculous myth has grown up around him. Christianity won out in a race with countless others religions, and I don't think it's still the world's most "popular" religion. It's regional...you've "learned" it because those around you "learned" it. Who wrote that book and when? What about the gospels that were left out? How many different ways are there to interpret that book?

Like I said before, "Christianity" has no monopoly on so-called Christian values. How did you come to know Christ? I came to know Curious George and the Man in the Yellow Hat through a book, too.

Pardon me for saying so, but you are part of a mass delusion. I don't mean to offend, only stating my opinion...what I consider the truth. If there is a huge man in the sky, I haven't seen him. I'm glad he gives you comfort, which is exactly the reason he was invented, I think.

Yes, I'm as condescending toward you as you pretend not to be towards me. I have reason, you have faith. The only difference is that my point is understandable and yours isn't. You think you "know" or are at least on the right track while I admit that I don't have a clue what's behind it all...I have to assume that it's just some natural process.

I'm an agnostic, so I have an open mind. You have to question these things. What reason do you have to believe that God put Frosted Flakes on your table or whatever?

Tell me how anybody could ever know what god thinks or what God wants. Wouldn't it make sense that, if there is a God, he wanted me to type this?

Do people that live in parts of the world that have never seen the Bible automatically go to Hell? If so, why? It's not their fault your God didn't hand out Bibles in East Gahunga.

NOT THE DUDE...

03-24-2010, 04:07 AM

hey tebow.... this just in, religion is a fairy tale.....

TMu11

03-24-2010, 05:10 AM

I HIGHLY doubt that Tebow will cause any locker-room trouble with his religious belief, at least for his first few years. He knows that that the NFL is a completely different breed and I expect him to respect that. I don't care who you are, but if you step into a room consisting of THE BEST players in th world, you DO NOT open your mouth and start giving speeches about your "savior."

It may be a complete different story when or IF he becomes a team starter and/or captain.

psubills62

03-24-2010, 08:03 AM

Never told anybody what to think or do...only offered my opinion. Obviously, I think I'm right. Take it or leave it. Thanks for playing.

Hahaha, actually I quoted your exact words - how is that not telling someone what to do. And you can brush it off as simply "your opinion," but that's what it is when anyone tells another person what to think or do - their opinion.

No, you think you "KNOW" and I don't, simply because of what's written in some book. Now tell me that you don't think that I'm ignorant to the truth of life and what lies behind it if I don't agree with you. THAT'S what I'm talking about. You can't help but harbor those ideas if you truly "believe." So, at a basic level, you really HAVE to be condescending because you really can't help it. The pity of it all...the pity that I haven't learned "the truth." THAT'S antagonizing. THAT'S annoying. I would pretty much label that cult activity. Hide it all you want, but it's there.

Own up to that and we can be friends. Deny it, and I'll think you have some issues. "Share your faith" with somebody that already agrees. I figure it to be a strange widespread form of brainwashing. What do you think about that?

Own up to what? What you THINK you know about every Christian? There are a lot of Christians out there, including me, who will freely admit that the possibility of God not existing is there. However, I believe that plenty of evidence points to God's existence.

That's the whole point - we're supposed to "share our faith" with people who aren't currently Christians. That's fine if you think it's a form of brainwashing, as I've met a lot of people who do.

Christ has been dead for 2,000 years. He was a man, a martyr. A whole ridiculous myth has grown up around him. Christianity won out in a race with countless others religions, and I don't think it's still the world's most "popular" religion. It's regional...you've "learned" it because those around you "learned" it. Who wrote that book and when? What about the gospels that were left out? How many different ways are there to interpret that book?

I did learn it because others around me learned it, but I also grew up and questioned it. Which book did you want to know about? If you're talking about the gospels, they appeared to be written at various times. Off the top of my head, I believe Matthew is estimated at about 50-55 AD. Certain books may have been left out because they were considered pseudepigraphal.

Like I said before, "Christianity" has no monopoly on so-called Christian values. How did you come to know Christ? I came to know Curious George and the Man in the Yellow Hat through a book, too.

Pardon me for saying so, but you are part of a mass delusion. I don't mean to offend, only stating my opinion...what I consider the truth. If there is a huge man in the sky, I haven't seen him. I'm glad he gives you comfort, which is exactly the reason he was invented, I think.

Yes, I'm as condescending toward you as you pretend not to be towards me. I have reason, you have faith. The only difference is that my point is understandable and yours isn't. You think you "know" or are at least on the right track while I admit that I don't have a clue what's behind it all...I have to assume that it's just some natural process.

I'm an agnostic, so I have an open mind. You have to question these things. What reason do you have to believe that God put Frosted Flakes on your table or whatever?

Tell me how anybody could ever know what god thinks or what God wants. Wouldn't it make sense that, if there is a God, he wanted me to type this?

Do people that live in parts of the world that have never seen the Bible automatically go to Hell? If so, why? It's not their fault your God didn't hand out Bibles in East Gahunga.

I find it hugely ironic that you assume I'm condescending simply because I'm a Christian. Then you use that to justify your own condescension. That's fine, it's obvious you have a very low opinion of Christianity. I doubt someone like me who is just posting things on a message board is going to change what appears to be a lifetime's worth of vitriol.

Despite what you may believe, it's possible for two people like us to have a discussion about Christianity with mutual respect.

It would appear you're asking me these questions simply in an attempt to make me look foolish. If you truly wanted answers to these questions, I'd be fine talking about it with you. I don't claim to know everything, and if the theologians of the last 2000 years can't answer your questions fully, I might not either. But I would certainly try...if you had as an open mind as you claim to have.

As an example, do I believe that people "in parts of the world that have never seen the Bible automatically go to Hell?" No, I don't. However, I do believe that the Bible says that even people who haven't heard the word of God have evidence of the glory of God in the creation around them. I also believe that people are born with the knowledge of right and wrong, and the difference between sinning and doing things that lead them towards righteousness. God knows each person's heart.

psubills62

03-24-2010, 08:22 AM

Oh man, if we're really going to get into a religious discussion, it can be broken down to how Christianity is a sad parody of pagan beliefs, but I don't anyone wants to have it go there lol.

The Bible also tells followers to do a lot of other things beside spread their views, as well as specific ways to spread them.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16. It's one of the most widely-quoted Bible verses there are. It's been called "the Gospel in a nutshell", for its succinct summary of the New Testament's "message".
A verse as vital and revered as John 3:16 deserves proper examination in the light of the rest of Holy Scripture. Let's place it into the wider context of the entire Bible:
"For God so loved the world, that he...
Decreed sickness, painful childbirth, and death for all descendents of Adam and Eve;
Drowned every man, woman, and innocent child on Earth, save a handful;
Slaughtered every man, woman, and innocent child in Sodom and Gomorrah;
Murdered countless babies in Egypt to impress a Pharoah;
Explicitly allowed and even commanded slavery, the beating and murder of slaves, and the rape of slaves;
Ordered the execution of homosexuals, disobedient children, stubborn sons, blasphemers, non-believers, "witches", adulterers, complainers, anyone ignoring a priest or judge, anyone working on the Sabbath, anyone touching Mt Sinai, any woman whose father cannot produce bloody sheets as proof of marriage-night virginity, and any betrothed virgin who is raped but doesn't protest loudly enough;
Repeatedly commanded his people to capture and rape women after battles;
Established a law requiring that rape victims marry their rapists;
Killed 24,000 Israelites by plague, stopping only when Phinehas pleased God by murdering an interracial couple;
Commanded the Israelites to slay all Midianites, including women and innocent children – except for 32,000 virgins, who were to be saved for raping;
Commanded the Levites to attack each other, resulting in the deaths of 3000;
Allowed Lot to give up his daughters to a mob of rapists; Caleb to give away his daughter as a battle prize; and a concubine owner to give his concubine to a mob of rapists (after which she dies and is dismembered);
Allowed His various champions to rip the flesh off captives; kill 69 brothers "upon one stone"; bring down a building on 3000 men and women; massacre inhabitants of cities with saws and axes; and throw 10,000 captives off a cliff;
Commanded Joshua to kill all peoples of all lands he visited, including women and innocent children, as well as kill all livestock and burn all cities;
Ordered that all Samaritans be killed by the sword, with infants dashed to pieces and pregant women ripped apart;
Commanded and aided massacres of men, women, children, and infants among the Caananites, Bethelites, Moabites, Philistines, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, Amelekites, Midianites, Succothites, Sihonites, Benjamites, Ammorites, Syrians, Assyrians, Edomites, Heshbonites, the city of Nob, the city of Ninevah, the town of Laish, the house of Jeroboam, the house of Baal, the house of Baasha, foreigners in Samaria, Hagarites, Hazorites, Jebusites, Ethiopians, Babylonians, and Israelites;
Directly murdered people Himself for reasons including masturbation; refusal to strike a prophet; believing a lying prophet; looking into the ark; attempting to save the ark from a fall; and "offering strange fire";
Murdered the wives, sons, and small children of men who argued with Moses, along with 250 bystanders;
Sent bears to slaughter 42 children who laughed at a priest's bald head;
Killed Job's children, slaves, and animals as part of a game;
Repeatedly punished children for sins of parents or even earlier generations;
Vowed to use lies and stumbling blocks to lure people into unrighteousness, then damn them eternally for it;
Inflicted various peoples with curses including pestilence, leprosy, fever, mildew, hemmorrhoids, locusts, itching, blindness, dead livestock, slavery, madness, worms, burning, thirst, baldness, miscarriages, famine, hail, and fruitless olive trees;
Delivered a plague that caused women to boil and eat their children;
Welcomed human sacrifice, including Jephthah's burning of his innocent daughter; the Moab king's burning of his son; Josiah's offerings of burnt priests; and Abraham's willingness to slit a child's throat."Now I don't think we want Tebow pressing his beliefs on others, unless the franchise is able to command pestilence over the Patriots. But if we're going by what The Bible says is ok.....

Seems a tad bit off topic from what I was going for, but sure...

I don't exactly have time to dig up theological answers to these questions. But similar to feldspar's questions, you seem to want to bring up these things just to try and make Christians look like idiots. If you actually want answers to questions you have, there's two men I know who went to seminary and could answer them better than I can. I could ask them if I could give you their email address, but I assume you'll be fine with just acting like you showed me up.

First of all, most of the points you've given are phrased incorrectly. Just to cherry-pick, your first point was not simply a "God-decree," it came about because of man's disobedience. Same with the flood - man's wickedness brought God's justice upon the land. Again, you make it sound like Sodom and Gomorrah were absolutely wonderful and peaceful and innocent places to live, when they were the ones demanding to have sex with the angels that visited Lot? It was filled with blatant sin and disregard of God's word. From what I understand of Job's life, God did not cause it, he allowed Satan to cause it. There is a difference.

Again, this is not exactly the argument I wanted to get into. Not because I have zero answers, but because I don't have the time to get into these length discussions, which they always turn into. Like I said, if you want answers, I could talk to my preacher and Bible study leader about contacting you, and you can discuss it with them. Or you could google things online, because while there is a mess of things, whenever I look, I'm often able to find Biblical answers to pretty much every question I have, including these types of questions.

ddaryl

03-24-2010, 08:36 AM

Tebow needs to STFU and keep his religion to himself and outside of the football field, and the locker room, and especially out of interviews.

I do not share his views, I do not accept them, and I don't want to hear them

Ron Burgundy

03-24-2010, 09:46 AM

The same thing that happened to him during the test will happen to him in the locker room. Some people will bow their heads, one or two people will tell him to shut the **** up, most people will laugh, and life will go on. If you've ever met someone who is religious to that extent, you know that he doesn't care if the other players like it or not.

Assuming he's on the team, I could give a damn if he quotes scripture while he's throwing the football. As long as we're winning he can keep a picture of Jesus in his jock for all the difference that it makes.

SirMcGee

03-24-2010, 09:49 AM

hey tebow.... this just in, religion is a fairy tale.....

You gonna make a poll on this?

"wait for poll?" :snooze:

SABURZFAN

03-24-2010, 10:12 AM

feldspar

03-24-2010, 03:27 PM

I find it hugely ironic that you assume I'm condescending simply because I'm a Christian. Then you use that to justify your own condescension. That's fine, it's obvious you have a very low opinion of Christianity. I doubt someone like me who is just posting things on a message board is going to change what appears to be a lifetime's worth of vitriol.

Despite what you may believe, it's possible for two people like us to have a discussion about Christianity with mutual respect.

It would appear you're asking me these questions simply in an attempt to make me look foolish. If you truly wanted answers to these questions, I'd be fine talking about it with you. I don't claim to know everything, and if the theologians of the last 2000 years can't answer your questions fully, I might not either. But I would certainly try...if you had as an open mind as you claim to have.

As an example, do I believe that people "in parts of the world that have never seen the Bible automatically go to Hell?" No, I don't. However, I do believe that the Bible says that even people who haven't heard the word of God have evidence of the glory of God in the creation around them. I also believe that people are born with the knowledge of right and wrong, and the difference between sinning and doing things that lead them towards righteousness. God knows each person's heart.

Whatever, dude. Sorry if I stereotyped the whole thing, including you. I guess the idea is to "condescend" to the idea and not the person. That's basically what I do or mean to do. I just don't believe that Christ died for my sins, etc. I think "coming to know" a man that died 2,000 years ago is a silly idea.

As to my questions, they were rhetorical. What I said was just what I think, and I'm sure the truth about Christians completely varies among individuals; but the book is the book, and I know what it says. I'm not just shooting blanks in the dark.

It's just a very touchy subject, and, to tell you the truth, I avoid it as much as I can with the relationships I have with people. I don't see a point of debating over it, considering the fact that nobody's mind is going to change over such a debate.

I'm not really all that angry about it as much as it perplexes me as to why somebody would believe such things.

Believe me, I'm all for people doing or believing what they want. Otherwise, I wouldn't have the right to do the same myself, which is what I'm doing here.

I was just generalizing throughout this whole thread. A certain element of hardcore Christians DO believe that I'll go to Hell for not having accepted Christ as my personal savior, and that's the worst part. When people say that this or that happened because of Christ, or this or that should happen because it's what God wants...that's when I become annoyed.

I like to think I'm pretty tolerant. I've let the Jehovah's Witnesses into my house several times. Guess what? They never leave you alone after that.

JCBills

03-24-2010, 04:39 PM

Seems a tad bit off topic from what I was going for, but sure...

I don't exactly have time to dig up theological answers to these questions. But similar to feldspar's questions, you seem to want to bring up these things just to try and make Christians look like idiots. If you actually want answers to questions you have, there's two men I know who went to seminary and could answer them better than I can. I could ask them if I could give you their email address, but I assume you'll be fine with just acting like you showed me up.

First of all, most of the points you've given are phrased incorrectly. Just to cherry-pick, your first point was not simply a "God-decree," it came about because of man's disobedience. Same with the flood - man's wickedness brought God's justice upon the land. Again, you make it sound like Sodom and Gomorrah were absolutely wonderful and peaceful and innocent places to live, when they were the ones demanding to have sex with the angels that visited Lot? It was filled with blatant sin and disregard of God's word. From what I understand of Job's life, God did not cause it, he allowed Satan to cause it. There is a difference.

Again, this is not exactly the argument I wanted to get into. Not because I have zero answers, but because I don't have the time to get into these length discussions, which they always turn into. Like I said, if you want answers, I could talk to my preacher and Bible study leader about contacting you, and you can discuss it with them. Or you could google things online, because while there is a mess of things, whenever I look, I'm often able to find Biblical answers to pretty much every question I have, including these types of questions.
These aren't questions, they're actions the Bible claims God carried out. I don't need to do anything to make Christians look like idiots. I'm not trying to show anyone up.

It's not off topic at all, I figured if we're talking about the spreading of religion, there's no need to sugar-coat it like it always seems to be. You're thinking in terms of the Bible being taken literally, whereas actual questioning and looking at the stories with an open mind usually leads to one simple conclusion:

It's a book of "moral stories"

Most of the Bible that isn't delivering the morals is stories used to drive the point home that though the general moral message across all religions are the same, THIS form is the correct one.

For example, the showdown between Moses and the Pharaoh's high priests. The Bible claims there is only one God, yet the Pharaoh's cronies were able to match most of Moses' feats, but in order for that to be possible, there would have to be another power giving them the ability to do so. When they turn their staffs into snakes, and he turns his into a larger snake, the easy-to-spot message there is the proposed triumph of monotheism over polytheism, though it contradicts itself from the beginning.

I didn't write that collection of atrocities put in the context of 3:16, though it is dead on.

It's quite easy to pencil in a reason for the destruction of a city when the reason and view are based on irrational thought. Oh, THEY were the ones who demanded sex with angels, so they shall perish. Well, angels weren't in Sodom and Gomorrah. Their deeds resulting in God killing them is one of many examples of "Don't do this, because if you do, God will destroy and damn you."

Question it? "Blasphemous." You're supposed to just "have faith".

Quite a little mental failsafe mechanism they've got going there. It results in the rejection of new information, which is the exact opposite of scientific thinking.

Though you may not think it's condescending, any type of "spreading of faith" comes off that way. It's 2010, the word has been spread. Almost everyone in the modern world has been exposed to it, those that haven't or refuse it still have missions sent their way. Christians look at anyone that hasn't accepted Jesus as an incomplete person. If they didn't they wouldn't feel compelled to show them "the way".

Best to just drop it here though, feld is right nobody's view is going to change lol.

psubills62

03-24-2010, 08:39 PM

Question it? "Blasphemous." You're supposed to just "have faith".

Best to just drop it here though, feld is right nobody's view is going to change lol.

I think the funniest thing to me is that everyone who argues against Christianity says this...yet I've NEVER heard a pastor or anyone even remotely knowledgeable about the Bible say this or even imply this. I've heard people say that they aren't sure about the answer to a question, but I've never been around anyone who says it's blasphemous to question the Bible or Christianity.

As far as the other stuff...I've written and deleted many comments in this post so far, but you're right that it isn't worth continuing on about this stuff. It's obvious that there are a lot of people who think Christians are ******s with no logical ability, which is about as far from the truth as you can get. I'd love to put you in contact with a few of the college professors I know, or maybe my pastor, who also went to law school. Maybe you'd find it an enlightening experience, I don't know. Doesn't seem like you'd be interested, though. You're pretty content misconstruing Biblical notions on a message board. :yawn:

JCBills

03-24-2010, 09:07 PM

I think the funniest thing to me is that everyone who argues against Christianity says this...yet I've NEVER heard a pastor or anyone even remotely knowledgeable about the Bible say this or even imply this. I've heard people say that they aren't sure about the answer to a question, but I've never been around anyone who says it's blasphemous to question the Bible or Christianity.

As far as the other stuff...I've written and deleted many comments in this post so far, but you're right that it isn't worth continuing on about this stuff. It's obvious that there are a lot of people who think Christians are ******s with no logical ability, which is about as far from the truth as you can get. I'd love to put you in contact with a few of the college professors I know, or maybe my pastor, who also went to law school. Maybe you'd find it an enlightening experience, I don't know. Doesn't seem like you'd be interested, though. You're pretty content misconstruing Biblical notions on a message board. :yawn:

Blasphemy is more of a Catholic term, which I'm fairly well versed in, I went to Catholic School 15 mins from the Ralph. I know Catholicism and Christianity aren't the same thing, but to question is to not be convinced. If you're convinced, there are no questions. Those who aren't convinced are non-believers. According to the Bible, non-believers shall perish. "Have faith" is one way of saying "don't question it".

Why would I want to talk to pastors / random professors? Glad to hear your pastor made it through law school....I guess? Well crafted statement though with the "It's obvious that there..." etc. Managed to indirectly put words in my mouth, but not to the point where I could call it that.

Again with the whole condescending thing. I'm not painting the Bible to be anything it isn't, nor did I misunderstand anything, so I'm not exactly sure what the purpose of your last statement was.

Like feld said, best to drop it, nobody's view will change.

YardRat

03-24-2010, 09:22 PM

Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball.

Mr. Pink

03-24-2010, 10:26 PM

The only reason anyone should care about is the fact he won't be a success at the NFL level as a QB.

trapezeus

03-25-2010, 09:58 AM

FACT: if the next great bills QB is a nazi sympathizer with alqueda roots and eats baby stew for lunch and is a total hypocrit in every single thing he says and does off the football field....i think the last 10 years of bills football will have us trying to figure out how to overlook these shortcomings and enjoy the season.

Just my thought.

Bill Cody

03-25-2010, 12:25 PM

better days

03-25-2010, 01:09 PM

I find people who carry religion on their sleeves annoying. I find Tim Tebow annoying. I don't want to have scripture #'s on my QB's face, if he's my QB I find that embarrassing. I find guys that start post game interviews thanking God, like God gives a **** about the outcome of a ****ing football game, annoying.

Having said that, if someone wants to spend their days wearing hair shirts, walking through fire and praying endlessly I say have a ball. Personally I think the whole religion thing is a crock, a reason to hate gays and a reason to divide people because their version of the "truth" isn't right, when the truth is the Bible has more holes and contradictions than an Al Queda prayer breakfast. IMO when we're dead the worms eat into our brains and we stay dead. :whistle:

I find people that don't have the common sense to get a cab after they have been drinking annoying. I find people that use poor judgement, get into trouble & find themselves suspended annoying. I find a 3rd round draft pick that does not have enough passion for the game to stay in Buffalo in the off season to work on his game annoying.

IMO Tebow & all other Christians have as much right to share their beliefs as you just shared yours.

kernowboy

03-25-2010, 01:15 PM

But the point is they often try to share them with you whether you ask them or not.

better days

03-25-2010, 01:24 PM

But the point is they often try to share them with you whether you ask them or not.

True, but I don't remember asking any of the atheists on this board to share their lack of faith either, yet they have, some in great detail.

Bill Cody

03-25-2010, 01:24 PM

I find people that don't have the common sense to get a cab after they have been drinking annoying.
agreed

I find people that use poor judgement, get into trouble & find themselves suspended annoying.
agreed

I find a 3rd round draft pick that does not have enough passion for the game to stay in Buffalo in the off season to work on his game annoying.
agreed

IMO Tebow & all other Christians have as much right to share their beliefs as you just shared yours.

If Tim wants to join this thread I'd be delighted to hear from him.:laughing: Put scripture #'s on his face as a way to promote his religion? Not so much. You can see the difference, right? By the same token I don't want my QB saying to the sideline reporter "I'd like to thank the lungfish, from whom I directly or indirectly evolved from millions of years ago, for my great performance today" either.

better days

03-25-2010, 01:37 PM

agreed

agreed

agreed

If Tim wants to join this thread I'd be delighted to hear from him.:laughing: Put scripture #'s on his face as a way to promote his religion? Not so much. You can see the difference, right? By the same token I don't want my QB saying to the sideline reporter "I'd like to thank the lungfish, from whom I directly or indirectly evolved from millions of years ago, for my great performance today" either.

Unlike many athletes that profess to be Christian & do not live Christian lives, Tebow lives his faith. A big part of his faith is to share it with others. I doubt you will see scripture #'s on his face in the NFL due to NFL rules.

I can understand Atheists being upset with Tebow sharing his faith every chance he gets, but is that worse than a guy that has a bad attitude in the locker room, or a guy that is in trouble all the time?

Bill Cody

03-25-2010, 01:50 PM

Unlike many athletes that profess to be Christian & do not live Christian lives, Tebow lives his faith. A big part of his faith is to share it with others. I doubt you will see scripture #'s on his face in the NFL due to NFL rules.

I can understand Atheists being upset with Tebow sharing his faith every chance he gets, but is that worse than a guy that has a bad attitude in the locker room, or a guy that is in trouble all the time?

No it isn't worse. It isn't nearly as bad actually. If Tebow is on the team and contributing I will root for him even if he makes his cadence Jesus 1 Jesus 2 instead of hut 1 hut 2. Proselytizing in whatever form is still annoying to me but in the end I want the Bills to win games. Ok?

better days

03-25-2010, 01:58 PM

No it isn't worse. It isn't nearly as bad actually. If Tebow is on the team and contributing I will root for him even if he makes his cadence Jesus 1 Jesus 2 instead of hut 1 hut 2. Proselytizing in whatever form is still annoying to me but in the end I want the Bills to win games. Ok?

Great, GO Bills. In the same respect if the Bills were to draft an atheist I would root for him.

Bill Cody

03-25-2010, 03:00 PM

Great, GO Bills. In the same respect if the Bills were to draft an atheist I would root for him.

OK good but you probably wouldn't know if we did. The atheists don't wear hats that say "Darwin page 245", you know?:snicker:

better days

03-25-2010, 04:04 PM

OK good but you probably wouldn't know if we did. The atheists don't wear hats that say "Darwin page 245", you know?:snicker:

I don't know about that, I see a # of cars with the Darwin fish with 4 legs driving around.

YardRat

03-25-2010, 05:15 PM

Frank Reich was (still is, actually) a pretty devout Christian, and referenced his faith many times over the years. I would bet he spoke openly about it to his team mates also, on the field or in the locker room.

Ron Burgundy

03-25-2010, 06:47 PM

I don't know about that, I see a # of cars with the Darwin fish with 4 legs driving around.

They're not necessarily atheists, they just like a sticker that proudly proclaims their lack of ******ation.

better days

03-25-2010, 06:53 PM

They're not necessarily atheists, they just like a sticker that proudly proclaims their lack of ******ation.

Maybe in your world. In mine it just shows how ******ed some people are.

Ron Burgundy

03-25-2010, 06:59 PM

Maybe in your world. In mine it just shows how ******ed some people are.
I'm not talking about religion, princess, I'm talking about evolution.

better days

03-25-2010, 07:07 PM

I'm not talking about religion, princess, I'm talking about evolution.

Knock off the insults. You are talking about Darwins THEORY of evolution which has NEVER been proved & goes against most of the religions of the world.

Ron Burgundy

03-25-2010, 07:45 PM

Knock off the insults. You are talking about Darwins THEORY of evolution which has NEVER been proved & goes against most of the religions of the world.

Not only soft-skinned, but soft-headed. A double threat guy!

Tourettes Guy

03-25-2010, 08:20 PM

Wow this thread got a little out of hand.

FinFaninBuffalo

03-25-2010, 08:41 PM

The thing to me, being an athiest

I'll pray to win the lottery

WTF? Contradict yourself much?

dplus47

03-25-2010, 08:58 PM

Knock off the insults. You are talking about Darwins THEORY of evolution which has NEVER been proved & goes against most literal interpretations of creation stories found in many of the world's holy books.
FTFY. Darwin's theory and religion don't have anything to do with one another. Darwin's theory only contradicts religion if you're hung up on literalism.

Origen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen) and Augustine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo) emphasized that there might be more to the scriptures than what you can read on the surface. But I guess they weren't all that important in the rise of Christianity or anything.

JCBills

03-25-2010, 09:09 PM

Knock off the insults. You are talking about Darwins THEORY of evolution which has NEVER been proved & goes against most of the religions of the world.

Of course it hasn't been proven, that's why they call it a theory, though there is far more evidence supporting evolution than religious claims. Those who question the lack of evidence are again advised to just have faith.

People in the past had to draw conclusions of some sort, formed by their lack of knowledge.

Science is ever-changing, never claiming 100% accuracy, because if that were true, we would have to already know everything, but we don't. New discoveries shatter previous thinking, and it is all factored in. Religion works to prevent that, claiming to know without really knowing. I don't know what relevance something going against most religions holds. Even most religions technically go against themselves, if there was only one way like the Bible claims, Christianity wouldn't need 34,000+ sub-divisions.

JCBills

03-25-2010, 09:11 PM

I don't know about that, I see a # of cars with the Darwin fish with 4 legs driving around.

But wouldn't if Jesus freaks didn't throw it in everyone's faces every chance they got.

That fish is also a pagan symbol. Same with the cross with a circle in it, that's the pagan cross of the zodiac.

kernowboy

03-26-2010, 03:40 AM

Knock off the insults. You are talking about Darwins THEORY of evolution which has NEVER been proved & goes against most of the religions of the world.

There's far more proof in Darwin's Theory than any other.

Even in the brief lifespan of recorded written history, we have seen how human beings have evolved, becoming on average taller for example.

Now take 2,500years of recorded human history and look at how that evolution might have occured over 4 million years.

After all, most religions thought the world was flat only a few hundred years ago.

Creationists make me laugh because basically their theory suggests that humans lived with dinosaurs .... and when most religions were created the notion of dinosaurs did not exist, yet they keep on trying to change their evidence to support their religion when even most established churches such as the Catholic church have accepted the idea of creationism to be completely bogus.

TigerJ

03-26-2010, 07:15 AM

That Tebow is fervent in his belief is obvious. Sometimes fervency plus youth leads to a lack of sensitivity and delicacy. I'm all for sharing my faith where circumstances allow, but sometimes you're just asking to get shot down when you do something like this where you are as likely to generate hostility as not. Makes no difference in his draftability though. He's too big a risk even in the second round. I might consider him in the third if he's still there and Buffalo hasn't drafted a QB.

feldspar

03-26-2010, 12:17 PM

WTF? Contradict yourself much?

Sure, I contradict myself sometimes...but not this time. This time you selectively took bits of what I said out of context.

Bill Cody

03-26-2010, 02:51 PM

Knock off the insults. You are talking about Darwins THEORY of evolution which has NEVER been proved & goes against most of the religions of the world.

The evidence for evolution is pretty overwhelming and gets more so all the time. People that deny evolution are by and large the same group that deny global warming. That hasn't been "proven" either but it's pretty much accepted science. Usually people that argue science a) don't really want to know the science and b) have their own agenda to do so. On evolution it's "how can that be true it contradicts Adam and Eve". On global warming or climate change it's the oil and gas industry using their considerable muscle to bribe/contribute to Republican members of Congress and Fox news to carry their water and convince people to doubt science. I saw that same crap for many years by the tobacco industry. People want to believe their religious fantasies and they don't want to pay more at the pump so doubting science works for them.

JCBills

03-26-2010, 03:47 PM

The evidence for evolution is pretty overwhelming and gets more so all the time. People that deny evolution are by and large the same group that deny global warming. That hasn't been "proven" either but it's pretty much accepted science. Usually people that argue science a) don't really want to know the science and b) have their own agenda to do so. On evolution it's "how can that be true it contradicts Adam and Eve". On global warming or climate change it's the oil and gas industry using their considerable muscle to bribe/contribute to Republican members of Congress and Fox news to carry their water and convince people to doubt science. I saw that same crap for many years by the tobacco industry. People want to believe their religious fantasies and they don't want to pay more at the pump so doubting science works for them.
LOL

I'm sorry but global warming is being pressed by the same people that were pushing global cooling in the 70's. When it's come out that the numbers were intentionally fudged to dramatize the changes, it's pretty hard to buy in. The planet has natural warm and cold periods. Most of the studies have been based on one year, 2005, that had some freak occurrences. There was also more sun storm activity than normal, which has since returned to standard. Now they claim record cold temps and violent winter storms are also a result of global warming.....what? If it were true, they wouldn't have to fake the numbers.

If you're going to believe what you see on CBS or whatever, well then I don't know what to say lol. They cherry pick like it's their job, for the post-bill poll numbers, they used the ONE poll that showed 47% approval which is a total joke, 6 other national polls clocked between 35% and 38%, but of course they use the one that makes Obama look like Don Juan.

While we agree on religion being a crock, understand that science can also be used to manipulate people, much like religion.

Bill Cody

03-26-2010, 04:09 PM

LOL

I'm sorry but global warming is being pressed by the same people that were pushing global cooling in the 70's. When it's come out that the numbers were intentionally fudged to dramatize the changes, it's pretty hard to buy in. The planet has natural warm and cold periods. Most of the studies have been based on one year, 2005, that had some freak occurrences. There was also more sun storm activity than normal, which has since returned to standard. Now they claim record cold temps and violent winter storms are also a result of global warming.....what? If it were true, they wouldn't have to fake the numbers.

If you're going to believe what you see on CBS or whatever, well then I don't know what to say lol. They cherry pick like it's their job, for the post-bill poll numbers, they used the ONE poll that showed 47% approval which is a total joke, 6 other national polls clocked between 35% and 38%, but of course they use the one that makes Obama look like Don Juan.

While we agree on religion being a crock, understand that science can also be used to manipulate people, much like religion.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/what-we-do-know-about-climate.html

JCBills

03-26-2010, 04:16 PM

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/what-we-do-know-about-climate.html

Ok?

dplus47

03-26-2010, 04:45 PM

I'm sorry but global warming is being pressed by the same people that were pushing global cooling in the 70's. When it's come out that the numbers were intentionally fudged to dramatize the changes, it's pretty hard to buy in. The planet has natural warm and cold periods. Most of the studies have been based on one year, 2005, that had some freak occurrences. There was also more sun storm activity than normal, which has since returned to standard. If it were true, they wouldn't have to fake the numbers.

While we agree on religion being a crock, understand that science can also be used to manipulate people, much like religion.
Wow, somebody doesn't understand the difference between weather and climate, alongside not understanding how science works even on a basic level.

One sentence shows this:
Now they claim record cold temps and violent winter storms are also a result of global warming.....what?
First, what is the antecedent of "they?" Do you imagine scientists as some monolithic body of people all working together toward the same end? Is there a giant cabal of scientists out to keep us from having a good time?

Next, do you understand the difference between weather and climate? The above sentence hints strongly that you do not.

Finally, please tell us all: what is the goal of this giant conspiracy of scientists? It's obviously not financial, because the money is behind global warming denial.

Is it just another liberal conspiracy to keep decent people miserable?

Your post was so well-informed that I'm sure many of us are eagerly awaiting your full thoughts on the matter.

JCBills

03-26-2010, 05:05 PM

Wow, somebody doesn't understand the difference between weather and climate, alongside not understanding how science works even on a basic level.

One sentence shows this:
First, what is the antecedent of "they?" Do you imagine scientists as some monolithic body of people all working together toward the same end? Is there a giant cabal of scientists out to keep us from having a good time?

Next, do you understand the difference between weather and climate? The above sentence hints strongly that you do not.

Finally, please tell us all: what is the goal of this giant conspiracy of scientists? It's obviously not financial, because the money is behind global warming denial.

Is it just another liberal conspiracy to keep decent people miserable?

Your post was so well-informed that I'm sure many of us are eagerly awaiting your full thoughts on the matter.
Too long, didn't read.

But I think people will probably misunderstand my view.

I'm not saying man hasn't had a negative impact on the world. It has. Are we disrupting the natural balance of things with our current way of life? Yes. Do I think on the level projected into the public? Nope. Believe me, I'd love to see us go to all wind / tidal / wave / geothermal / solar power. We have thousands of years of clean power there for using. Cars could be completely battery powered, but oil companies ownership of certain battery patents has restricted the advancement of that technology. It exists, but can't be produced cheaply as a result of the oil companies etc. Same goes with the other clean forms of basically free, renewable energy, it's hard to justify charging people for wind, the sun, and so on, but the obvious costs of building exist as a barrier. I'd love to see that major shift in focus, energy costs could be reduced to almost nothing, but it won't happen for a while, because you can't control the scarcity of wind.

Ickybaluky

03-26-2010, 06:58 PM

Wow... talk about a thread getting off-topic. This one went completely off-forum.

Bill Cody

03-27-2010, 11:33 AM

Wow... talk about a thread getting off-topic. This one went completely off-forum.

lol the pats fan complaining about being on the wrong forum

dplus47

03-28-2010, 02:03 PM

Too long, didn't read.

Of course you didn't read it. Lack of curiosity is a matter of pride with many, and it oozes from your posts.

You have demonstrated your belief that "global warming" must be the result of a few (very few) flawed studies that took place after 2005.

There was actually a scientific consensus on global warming well before 2005. Here's an article you won't read (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686). Maybe someone else will. Cliff's notes: from 1993-2003, there were 928 separate scientific (i.e. peer reviewed) studies of climate change that pretty much agreed with one another. Poking a hole or two in one study among thousands damages the credibility of that single study, not the subject of study.

Such tree hugging organizations as the U.S. Department of Defense (http://www.monthlyreview.org/0504editors.htm) and the National Defense Industrial Association (http://www.ndia.org/Resources/PresidentsPerspective/Pages/August2008.aspx) are pretty much accepting climate change as a fact of life moving forward. Here's a peek at the Pentagon's 2010 (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/01/the-greening-of-the-pentagons-master-strategy-review/) stance, which is not so far removed from what they were saying in 2004; nobody's listening now, either.

If you want to become one of the richest, most powerful people on the planet, all you need to do is prove that carbon dioxide doesn't trap heat in the atmosphere. Since that seems to be the crux of the denialists' stance, all one of them needs to do is prove it. All the oil companies will have positions for you and I'm sure you could get a cabinet post with whichever party you want.

That small point, that carbon dioxide traps heat, is really it. That's all that needs to be disproven, but instead, we get a lot of another kind of hot air from people like you who can't be bothered to look into something that challenges their worldview.

dplus47

03-28-2010, 02:05 PM

Speaking of the Pats and Tebow, they're really one of the few teams where Tebow would make sense: they have a stable QB situation and a surplus of somewhat early picks. They also have a strong team and coaching staff. Tebow makes zero sense for a team like the Bills, who need results on the field sooner rather than later.

ZAZusmc03

03-28-2010, 02:20 PM

justasportsfan

03-28-2010, 05:33 PM

If Tebow walks the talk in terms of his faith, it's plus. it adds to the reason why he should be drafted.

NOT THE DUDE...

03-28-2010, 06:17 PM

Of course you didn't read it. Lack of curiosity is a matter of pride with many, and it oozes from your posts.

You have demonstrated your belief that "global warming" must be the result of a few (very few) flawed studies that took place after 2005.

There was actually a scientific consensus on global warming well before 2005. Here's an article you won't read (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686). Maybe someone else will. Cliff's notes: from 1993-2003, there were 928 separate scientific (i.e. peer reviewed) studies of climate change that pretty much agreed with one another. Poking a hole or two in one study among thousands damages the credibility of that single study, not the subject of study.

Such tree hugging organizations as the U.S. Department of Defense (http://www.monthlyreview.org/0504editors.htm) and the National Defense Industrial Association (http://www.ndia.org/Resources/PresidentsPerspective/Pages/August2008.aspx) are pretty much accepting climate change as a fact of life moving forward. Here's a peek at the Pentagon's 2010 (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/01/the-greening-of-the-pentagons-master-strategy-review/) stance, which is not so far removed from what they were saying in 2004; nobody's listening now, either.

If you want to become one of the richest, most powerful people on the planet, all you need to do is prove that carbon dioxide doesn't trap heat in the atmosphere. Since that seems to be the crux of the denialists' stance, all one of them needs to do is prove it. All the oil companies will have positions for you and I'm sure you could get a cabinet post with whichever party you want.

That small point, that carbon dioxide traps heat, is really it. That's all that needs to be disproven, but instead, we get a lot of another kind of hot air from people like you who can't be bothered to look into something that challenges their worldview.

you are a piece of work my friend. nobody is debating that carbon dioxide traps heat. what people are saying is that there have been warming periods in the past before the industrial age. i have not seen one study that shows directly that our warming period;( which is 1 degree in the past 100 years), is in correlation with increased green house gases. ill even give u this. i havent seen one direct study that shows a correlation between green house gases and damage to the enviorment... even if there is a direct link between green house gases and increased temp, its only been 1 degree and we dont even know if that would hurt the enviorment... you also left out that the earth hasnt warmed in the past 10 years... so now what do u exactly have... 1 degree and you dont even know if green house gases have caused it....

by the way im a liberal....

NOT THE DUDE...

03-28-2010, 06:18 PM

im so sick of the enviormental wack jobs giving liberals a bad name. yes im for green tech, but cap and trade is about the dumbest idea this government could come up with....

Bill Cody

03-31-2010, 09:27 AM

Ok?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/climategate-investigation_n_519644.html

read it and weep. Denying science is un American. Global warming is being caused by man and it is quite real.

JCBills

04-04-2010, 03:35 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/climategate-investigation_n_519644.html

read it and weep. Denying science is un American. Global warming is being caused by man and it is quite real.

LOL The Huffington Puffington post? No thanks. I don't deny science at all, I embrace it. I just reject what has been exposed as fudged numbers. The numbers are irrelevant when they're known to be skewed.

Bill Cody

04-04-2010, 08:10 PM

LOL The Huffington Puffington post? No thanks. I don't deny science at all, I embrace it. I just reject what has been exposed as fudged numbers. The numbers are irrelevant when they're known to be skewed.

Did you read the article? THE BRITS DETERMINED THE NUMBERS WEREN'T FUDGED. This is a bit much. You reject the info because of where it appeared? The oil and gas industry has spent over $50 million in the last 15 years in 40 sources to promote the denial of climate science. Your post about global warming having something to do with a warm year in 2005 is nonsense. The decade from 2000-2009 was the warmest decade ever recorded. The science goes back decades and it is compelling, not fudged.

Spiderweb

04-04-2010, 11:54 PM

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/23/tebows-pre-wonderlic-prayer-request-falls-flat/

Let's face it. Religion is weird. I'm not here to get in a huge debate with any of you, you all have the right to believe whatever the hell you want. I support that. But the most obnoxious thing in the world a person can do, in my opinion, is shove their religion up my ass.

Tebow asking everybody to pray before the Wonderlic is a perfect example of just super obnoxious religious promotion. I can't stand that shnizzle. And although I totally support a persons right to practice their religion and I respect it, if your at the Wonderlic test and having everybody pray is the first thing on your mind, then your mind is not on football.

Tebow is out to make a political statement. Imagine people like him that you've met and how well they fit in the work place or at school. Not well. Not these days. This kid will come in doing obnoxious crap.

I imagine the coach giving a rah rah speach and then Tebow jumping in at the end ok guys let's all pray together. BUZZZZZZKIILLLLLLL!!

A guy needs to fit in. This is the NFL. In college, Tebow was Meyer's boy. Everybody knew it, so they just let it be. That won't happen in the pro's.

I guess then you never heard of Frank Reich?

weasel.....