Bills Wall of Shame

[Coach Sal]

In honor of the latest Wall of Fame inductee (well, not yet, but soon), Booker Edgerson.......and the fact that this team has not made the playoffs this millennium, it's time to come up with a Buffalo Bills Wall of Shame!

Here's my inaugural class:

--OJ Simpson. Sorry. But The Juice has shamed the city. He can stay on the Wall of Fame because of his accomplishments on the field, but he's going on my Wall of Shame because of what he brought to and represents to the organization OFF of it.

--Ronnie Harmon. My all-time least favorite Bill. I was in Cleveland in January 1990 when he dropped the pass in the end zone that would've sent the team to their first SB the year before they finally made it. It still plays in my head 20 years later.

--Billy Joe Hobert. Dude didn't care enough about his QB job in Buffalo to study the damn playbook. Hey, BJ (perfect first two initials for you, by the way), how'd everything work out for you in New Orleans after that? errrrr....how 'bout Indy? Oops, sorry.

--Greg Williams/Mike Mularkey/Dick Jauron. Yeah, they're all going on at once, under the same heading. Because I honestly can't tell the difference between the exact same ****ty football I've watched over the last ten years, when any of the three was the head coach.

--Tom Donahoe & JP Losman. Yep, another Wall "partnership." Why not? TD made some decent moves (trading down and grabbing Nate Clements, drafting Schobel in round 2, drafting Terrence McGee and Lee Evans), but he ultimately hitched his Bills legacy wagon to Losman. He even traded our #1 in 2005 to get this guy (and Aaron Rodgers would've been there with that pick). And Losman sucked. Sucked enough to go on the Wall with a little help. So, separately, neither guy goes up because there have been worse GMs and there really have been worse QBs. But together, it was a shameful partnership.

--Chris Watson. I kinda feel bad putting Chris on my Wall. But when your own coach (Wade Phillips) refers to you - a punt returner - as a "punt catcher," that pretty much is a good indication that you blow. Chris was a DB, though, and could've made us forget about his punt return (lack of) abilities. But he pretty much blew there, too. So, it was shameful watching him suit up in a Bills uniform every week for a few years.

--Bryan Cox. I know, I know. This is the Bills Wall of Shame. But Bryan gets special consideration because of his special relationship with us, the Bills fans. From grabbing his crotch as he walked out of the tunnel yelling obscenities at us, to flipping the bird to the entire Ralph Wilson Stadium crowd, to saying in an interview that he'd "retire tomorrow" if he was ever traded to Buffalo, Bryan will always hold a special place in all out hearts as the #1 Bills villain. So, for that, he gets a special place on my Wall of Shame, to forever be immortalized.

--Vince Ferragamo. Starting QB for nine games on maybe the worst Bills team in history, 1985. How bout these for stats? 1-8 record. 5 TD 17 INT. Sacked 19 times. Good God! This guy makes Edwards/Fitzpatrick combo look like the glory years of Bills football. And here's the worst part.....the Bills gave up TE Tony Hunter to get him. And although Hunter didn't last many years in the NFL, he did catch 50 passes in 1985 for a Rams team that went to the NFC title game. Ugh.

--Brett Hull. Seriously. Why the Hell not?!?!

--Mike Williams. There have been plenty of 1st round busts over the years, but Mike is probably the biggest (both figuratively and literally) representation of what a bust the entire last decade of Bills football has been.

Well, that's mine. At least the ones I thought of while sitting here and writing this. Who's on your Wall and why?

[Jaybird]

scott Norwood!!!!

[Coach Sal]

scott Norwood!!!!

I can't put Scotty on my Wall.

He missed one tough kick that will forever be remembered.

But otherwise he was a Hell of a kicker for us during the late 80s playoffs and 90s Super Bowl era.

[Mr. Pink]

I can't put Scotty on my Wall.

He missed one tough kick that will forever be remembered.

But otherwise he was a Hell of a kicker for us during the late 80s playoffs and 90s Super Bowl era.


Also missed an XP in that Cleveland divisional playoff game that forced Kelly to throw over the middle to Clay Matthews instead of kicking a tying field goal to go to OT.

Scotty has to be there.

[DraftBoy]

What about Rob Johnson?

[Coach Sal]

Also missed an XP in that Cleveland divisional playoff game that forced Kelly to throw over the middle to Clay Matthews instead of kicking a tying field goal to go to OT.

Scotty has to be there.

As I remember it, he didn't miss that. John Kidd couldn't get the hold down on the slop and Norwood never got the chance to kick it.

[Mr. Pink]

Bruce Mathison - the other excellent part of the QB tandem with Ferragamo 1-6 4TDs 14 INTs

Hank Bullough - 4-17 record way worse than any of the past 3 coaches

Perry Tuttle - first round bust

Erik Flowers, Mike Williams, JP....no more needs to be said about those guys

[Coach Sal]

What about Rob Johnson?

I was never a Johnson hater. He played well in the playoff game at Tennessee. It wasn't his fault we lost. He left the field with the lead.

I know he never panned out as planned. But I fault Butler for trading the #1 to get him more than I feel RJ was shameful.

[clumping platelets]

I agree.....Rob Johnson

I would not put Bruce Mathison on it

[clumping platelets]

Tom Cousineau

Travis Henry

Willis McGahee

:scratch:

[Mr. Pink]

As I remember it, he didn't miss that. John Kidd couldn't get the hold down on the slop and Norwood never got the chance to kick it.


Then you remember it incorrectly, Norwood tried to kick it and slipped as he was hitting it. The hold was fine.

2 missed kicks led to 2 playoff losses.

He'd have to make the wall of shame.

[clumping platelets]

Taro Tsujimoto

[Mr. Pink]

Tom Cousineau

Travis Henry

Willis McGahee

:scratch:


Cousineau was traded to Cleveland for the first round pick that was used on Jim Kelly.

[clumping platelets]

Cousineau was traded to Cleveland for the first round pick that was used on Jim Kelly.


But he still should be on this wall

[TacklingDummy]

Make room for Maybin.

[Zero]

How about Eddie Robinson?? Fleet-footed Chad Pennington shook him out of his jockstrap to score a touchdown. What a disgrace... :crap:

[ServoBillieves]

Make room for Maybin.

Even when moving to the 3-4 system where he could do very well after 1 year? Really?

[billz83]

Ralph Wilson because without him and his incompetent ways we truly couldnt be one of the worst in the league for over a decade! Wilson should head this list because he makes it all possible to be this bad for this long!

[Buffalogic]

Eric Flowers feels left out.

[jamze132]

As long as Chris Watson is on there, and I'm glad he is, we're good!

[GreedoII]

In honor of the latest Wall of Fame inductee (well, not yet, but soon), Booker Edgerson.......and the fact that this team has not made the playoffs this millennium, it's time to come up with a Buffalo Bills Wall of Shame!

Here's my inaugural class:

--OJ Simpson. Sorry. But The Juice has shamed the city. He can stay on the Wall of Fame because of his accomplishments on the field, but he's going on my Wall of Shame because of what he brought to and represents to the organization OFF of it.

--Ronnie Harmon. My all-time least favorite Bill. I was in Cleveland in January 1990 when he dropped the pass in the end zone that would've sent the team to their first SB the year before they finally made it. It still plays in my head 20 years later.

--Billy Joe Hobert. Dude didn't care enough about his QB job in Buffalo to study the damn playbook. Hey, BJ (perfect first two initials for you, by the way), how'd everything work out for you in New Orleans after that? errrrr....how 'bout Indy? Oops, sorry.

--Greg Williams/Mike Mularkey/Dick Jauron. Yeah, they're all going on at once, under the same heading. Because I honestly can't tell the difference between the exact same ****ty football I've watched over the last ten years, when any of the three was the head coach.

--Tom Donahoe & JP Losman. Yep, another Wall "partnership." Why not? TD made some decent moves (trading down and grabbing Nate Clements, drafting Schobel in round 2, drafting Terrence McGee and Lee Evans), but he ultimately hitched his Bills legacy wagon to Losman. He even traded our #1 in 2005 to get this guy (and Aaron Rodgers would've been there with that pick). And Losman sucked. Sucked enough to go on the Wall with a little help. So, separately, neither guy goes up because there have been worse GMs and there really have been worse QBs. But together, it was a shameful partnership.

--Chris Watson. I kinda feel bad putting Chris on my Wall. But when your own coach (Wade Phillips) refers to you - a punt returner - as a "punt catcher," that pretty much is a good indication that you blow. Chris was a DB, though, and could've made us forget about his punt return (lack of) abilities. But he pretty much blew there, too. So, it was shameful watching him suit up in a Bills uniform every week for a few years.

--Bryan Cox. I know, I know. This is the Bills Wall of Shame. But Bryan gets special consideration because of his special relationship with us, the Bills fans. From grabbing his crotch as he walked out of the tunnel yelling obscenities at us, to flipping the bird to the entire Ralph Wilson Stadium crowd, to saying in an interview that he'd "retire tomorrow" if he was ever traded to Buffalo, Bryan will always hold a special place in all out hearts as the #1 Bills villain. So, for that, he gets a special place on my Wall of Shame, to forever be immortalized.

--Vince Ferragamo. Starting QB for nine games on maybe the worst Bills team in history, 1985. How bout these for stats? 1-8 record. 5 TD 17 INT. Sacked 19 times. Good God! This guy makes Edwards/Fitzpatrick combo look like the glory years of Bills football. And here's the worst part.....the Bills gave up TE Tony Hunter to get him. And although Hunter didn't last many years in the NFL, he did catch 50 passes in 1985 for a Rams team that went to the NFC title game. Ugh.

--Brett Hull. Seriously. Why the Hell not?!?!

--Mike Williams. There have been plenty of 1st round busts over the years, but Mike is probably the biggest (both figuratively and literally) representation of what a bust the entire last decade of Bills football has been.

Well, that's mine. At least the ones I thought of while sitting here and writing this. Who's on your Wall and why?



actually they would have played Denver in the AFC Tile game but I get your point...

[Historian]

Perry Tuttle
Tom Ruud
Walt Patulski
JD Williams
Ruben Gant

[Coach Sal]

Then you remember it incorrectly, Norwood tried to kick it and slipped as he was hitting it. The hold was fine.

Good call. You're right now that I think about it.

But I'm still leaving Scotty off my Wall because he also made a lot of big kicks for the team during that run, too.

So far, Norwood and Johnson have been the most talked-about people not on my Wall that others would put on from this board and another.

[Coach Sal]

actually they would have played Denver in the AFC Tile game but I get your point...

Correct. It was the Divisional Round. Thanks for the correction.

[Night Train]

Booker Moore
Al Cowlings

[Dr. Lecter]

I agree.....Rob Johnson

I would not put Bruce Mathison on it

How can you place Johnson on it and not Mathison???

That makes no sense whatsoever!!!!!!!!

[Dr. Lecter]

Darryl Porter - stay in your lane and the Bills beat the Titans.

Hank Bullough - Sal, if you put Jauron, Mularkey and Williams on the list the worst head coach I ever saw for the Bills gets a spot as well.

[YardRat]

No to Bryan Cox...no Dolphins player's name should be displayed anywhere, anytime.

No to Booker Moore (he just passed away last fall BTW...news to me) but Yes to Terry Bledsoe, who drafted him.

[Ginger Vitis]

Scott Norwood has taken way too much blame for the SB 25 loss by the media and Non Bills fans..Knowlegdeable Bills fans know the missed tackles, dropped catches(Andre Reed droppng 2 catchable balls) contrbuted just as much to that loss

[TacklingDummy]

Even when moving to the 3-4 system where he could do very well after 1 year? Really?
Or he could do very bad.

My opinions are based on his performance last year, others opinions are based on hope.

[TacklingDummy]

.Knowlegdeable Bills fans know the missed tackles, dropped catches(Andre Reed droppng 2 catchable balls) contrbuted just as much to that loss
And with all that the Bills still had a chance to win at the end.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

John McCargo

[Forward_Lateral]

Billy Joe Playbook

[Cleve]

Scott Norwood has taken way too much blame for the SB 25 loss by the media and Non Bills fans..Knowlegdeable Bills fans know the missed tackles, dropped catches(Andre Reed droppng 2 catchable balls) contrbuted just as much to that loss

And let's not forget Kelly & Thomas & Co. allegedly spending the pre-Super Bowl week prior to their first S.B. appearance partying and living it up like it was 1999. But those jokers love to see the blame pinned on Norwood for missing a very long kick that was at the far end of his range, and the fact the vaunted "K-Gun" was shooting blanks on game day is generally ignored.

Instead of partying, I suspect the NY Giants spent their time wisely by preparing for the game. Huh! Imagine that?

A good rule of thumb - one has to achieve a victory first before celebrating it.

[casdhf]

Marv Levy - GM

[TedMock]

Scott Norwood has taken way too much blame for the SB 25 loss by the media and Non Bills fans..Knowlegdeable Bills fans know the missed tackles, dropped catches(Andre Reed droppng 2 catchable balls) contrbuted just as much to that loss

Lets not forget 7 missed tackles on 3rd down that would have forced the Giants to punt or kick a 52 yarder instead of going on for a score later that drive after eating more clock. Was it Mark Ingram that made the play? I remember the play very clearly, but I can't remember the number of that wideout. I believe it was 82 (Ingram), but I'm not 100% positive.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

In honor of the latest Wall of Fame inductee (well, not yet, but soon), Booker Edgerson.......and the fact that this team has not made the playoffs this millennium, it's time to come up with a Buffalo Bills Wall of Shame!


OJ, wall of shame in life.
Ronnie Harmon - Yeah I get it, dropped pass, however the guy did make the pro bowl. He had a descent career as that third down back type role. Granted, probably not the popular choice when Rob Riddick and Greg Bell on the team. Wall of Shame? No, wall of players Coach Sal doesn't like, yes.
Billy Joe Hobert - absolutely
trio of coaches - ok
Losman - Losman just didn't seem to get it.
Donahoe - The Bills bring in an outside football guy and "football smarts" and it blew up in their face. People question why Ralph now hires within and hires people he is comfortable with, your answer, Tom Donahoe.
Chris Watson - How does he even make this list except as a joke?
Cox - You can put him on any wall of shame.
Ferragamo - terrible QB in a terrible era of Bills football.
Hull - Huh?
Mike Williams - HORRIBLE PICK, fat and lazy. This pick put the Bills in the hole for a couple years.

Here are some more:
Willis McGahee and Drew Rosenhaus - What was the thing with the phone? Anyway, McBadknee was just a douche and not a likable guy at all. Everyone was glad he was traded away.
Joe Cribbs - A heck of a back, but wanted nothing to do with Buffalo. He used to put "Buffalo Jail" signs above his locker. He could have been a legend here but chose to leave for the USFL, came back, left. He was a mess and I actually loved him as a kid.
If you are going to put the three coaches, you have to put in Kay Stephenson.
Perry Tuttle - One of the all-time big Bills many draft whiffs. The next receivers take: Mike Quick and Mark Duper.
Tony Hunter - Another bust, however, the reason he is on the wall of shame is he is drafted two slots ahead of Jim Kelly.
Actually most Bills first round picks could make this list.
Hank Bullough - another one of the Bill's big coordinator who is great at being a coordinator, but not a coach.
John McCargo
Rob Johnson - No explanation needed.
Pretty much every GM not named Bill Polian.

[Jan Reimers]

I might add a couple of 1st round busts in Richie Lucas and Walt Patulski, and Big Jim Dunaway, who allegedly killed his wife before OJ made it popular among former Bills.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I was never a Johnson hater. He played well in the playoff game at Tennessee. It wasn't his fault we lost. He left the field with the lead.

I know he never panned out as planned. But I fault Butler for trading the #1 to get him more than I feel RJ was shameful.

Let's not let him off that easy, the guy had like 130 yards passing in that game against an average pass defense, and he really didn't play all that great.

[Ginger Vitis]

Norwood for missing a very long kick that was at the far end of his range,

So true.. Norwood before that kick was 1 for 5 on FGS on grass longer than 45 yards up until that point.. On the last drive just one more time out would have given the offense 1 or 2 more plays to run to get the FG attempt a shorter distance

[Ginger Vitis]

Lets not forget 7 missed tackles on 3rd down that would have forced the Giants to punt or kick a 52 yarder instead of going on for a score later that drive after eating more clock. Was it Mark Ingram that made the play? I remember the play very clearly, but I can't remember the number of that wideout. I believe it was 82 (Ingram), but I'm not 100% positive.

Yep the wideout was Mark Ingram..the most crucial play of the game.. Darryl Talley flew right over top of him and missed tackling Mark

[TacklingDummy]

But those jokers love to see the blame pinned on Norwood for missing a very long kick that was at the far end of his range, and the fact the vaunted "K-Gun" was shooting blanks on game day is generally ignored.


How many points in how many minutes did the K-gun score?

The lack of points could be blamed on the 40+ minutes the Giants had the ball.

Even with all that the Bills still would have won if the kick was good.

[TacklingDummy]

Let's not let him off that easy, the guy had like 130 yards passing in that game against an average pass defense, and he really didn't play all that great.
Let's not forget his safety and free kick after the safety that setup another 7 points.

[Jan Reimers]

So true.. Norwood before that kick was 1 for 5 on FGS on grass longer than 45 yards up until that point.. On the last drive just one more time out would have given the offense 1 or 2 more plays to run to get the FG attempt a shorter distance
I totally agree. There were many more critical factors in our loss. I'll say this one more time:

Scott Norwood did not lose Super Bowl XXV.

[TacklingDummy]

Scott Norwood did not lose Super Bowl XXV.
There are many reasons why teams win or lose.

The ultimate blame goes on his foot.

If the kick was good, what would the outcome of the game been?

[Ginger Vitis]

The lack of points could be blamed on the 40+ minutes the Giants had the ball.



Absolutely.. The missed tackles on 3rd and 13 gets brought up to death but earlier on that drive there were 2 missed tackles on a catch by Dave Meggett on the 1st set of downs on 3rd down.. had those tackles been made on Meggett the Giants are 3 and out and the Bills offense probably gets the bal lin decent field position instead of the Giants getting a TD and burning 9:29 off the clock

[OpIv37]

No Tim Anderson?

I've been posting on this board since 2003, and every time someone bashes a player, some people agree and some people defend him. With one exception: Tim Anderson. The guy was universally bashed on this board because his shortcomings were so obvious on the field. And he was supposed to replace Pat Williams and Sam Adams.

[Dr. Lecter]

One player unifies this board and you want to give him a negative award?????

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, a friend of Danny's actually owned a Tim Anderson jersey.

[Ginger Vitis]

No Tim Anderson?

I've been posting on this board since 2003, and every time someone bashes a player, some people agree and some people defend him. With one exception: Tim Anderson. The guy was universally bashed on this board because his shortcomings were so obvious on the field. And he was supposed to replace Pat Williams and Sam Adams.

Good call..Donahoe reached by at least 3 rounds to draft Tim on Tim Krumries recoomendation.. Krumrie would wrestle DL prospects to determine how tough they were.. Anderson was probably 12th Dlineman he had wrestled in a row do you think Krumrie might have been a little tired?..lol What a stupid way to evaluate a DL prospect

[TacklingDummy]

Absolutely.. The missed tackles on 3rd and 13 gets brought up to death but earlier on that drive there were 2 missed tackles on a catch by Dave Meggett on the 1st set of downs on 3rd down.. had those tackles been made on Meggett the Giants are 3 and out and the Bills offense probably gets the bal lin decent field position instead of the Giants getting a TD and burning 9:29 off the clock
None of that would have mattered if the kick was good.

[OpIv37]

One player unifies this board and you want to give him a negative award?????

well he unified it with his suckiness- he was SO BAD that we had no choice but to agree on that one.

[Mad Bomber]

Walt Patulski.

#1 overall pick, never amounted to crap.

[justasportsfan]

I was never a Johnson hater. He played well in the playoff game at Tennessee. It wasn't his fault we lost. He left the field with the lead.

I know he never panned out as planned. But I fault Butler for trading the #1 to get him more than I feel RJ was shameful.

He didn't take us to the playoffs, Flutie did. Robosack never even had one decent season. He was either busy getting hurt or laying on his back because he was too chicken to throw it to Moulds.

[OpIv37]

He didn't take us to the playoffs, Flutie did. Robosack never even had one decent season. He was either busy getting hurt or laying on his back because he was too chicken to throw it to Moulds.

I was at a game in Buffalo shortly after we got RJ. It was McNabb's rookie year (or maybe just the first year he played) and the Bills whooped the Eagles 26-0.

Late in the game, they put RJ in at QB- he lasted a whole 3 plays before he took ONE hit and had to go back out.

[justasportsfan]

I was at a game in Buffalo shortly after we got RJ. It was McNabb's rookie year (or maybe just the first year he played) and the Bills whooped the Eagles 26-0.

Late in the game, they put RJ in at QB- he lasted a whole 3 plays before he took ONE hit and had to go back out.


Rob had all the tools to be an awesome qb, but you can see a huge game difference when an aging midget who could barely see over the OL ,came in to play.

[Coach Sal]

There are a lot of guys who really sucked people are bringing up.

But just sucking shouldn't put you on a Wall of Shame.

Just like the Hall/Wall of Fame are supposed to be the truly greatest of all-time, the Wall of Shame should only be those who were so bad or did something so wrong they brought shame to us as fans of the Bills.

At least that's the way my Wall is. Otherwise, I'd never have room for the amount of names that needed to go up.

[trapezeus]

JD Williams? the guy had depth perception problems and would whiff on pass break ups really badly in his last year. it was like watching old yeller as he made a fool of himself. also former 1st round pick.

[Historian]

Matt Kofler
Dan Manucci
Tom Flores
Leo Hart
George Jakowenko
Benny Ricardo

[Forward_Lateral]

What about Quinn Early? Anyone remember how big of a FA bust he was?

[Dr. Lecter]

Tom Dempsey

You missed a freakin' chip shot that would have ended the streak against the Dolphins, you douchebag.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

Kay Stephenson, FTW.

1968: Sucked as a quarterback. Led to the team having to convert Ed Rutkowski from WR to QB because he and Dan Darragh couldn't hack it. Between the three, a 1-12 record-- a far cry from the dynasty years of just a couple years prior.

1984: 2-14 under him as coach.

Other potential names to consider:
Gary Marangi - 1976, Thanksgiving game... OJ racks up 273 yards rushing (league record at the time) and the Bills still find a way to lose because he can't pass worth beans.

Jake Arians - The kicker during the infamous 2001 season. Ended up getting canned after missing a key extra point in favor of Shayne Graham-- who went on to have a decent career elsewhere. Arians, on the other hand, hasn't been seen since. (Edit: Found the official "Arians Pro Football Academy" page, and Jake is flat-out lying about how an injury supposedly ended his career. No. Suck is what ended your career, so man up.)

Tom Modrak - Current scouting guru. The man behind all those horrible draft picks this decade.

[don137]

Man as if the last 10 years were not miserable enough...This list sure does not help matters much...I am sure every team has its share of shame draft selections...Unfortunately, I see one of the misses every so often. Perry Tuttle's daughter is in my son's class. I saw him in Target last Saturday. At least one of the best Bills ever goes to my church. I sat a few pews over from Joe D. at the 7:30AM mass this past Sunday..

[Jan Reimers]

There are many reasons why teams win or lose.

The ultimate blame goes on his foot.

If the kick was good, what would the outcome of the game been?
Norwood would have been the reason we WON, despite Marv being outcoached, and the Giants having played a more solid game.

Because Norwood could not WIN it for us, however, does not mean he LOST it.

[TedMock]

None of that would have mattered if the kick was good.

I'm not defending Norwood here, but that kick was not the primary reason they lost. I agree, he would have been the hero had he made it, but it would not have been the only reason they won either. The offense scored 1 point per minute of possession. The offense did what it had to do until that last drive. The defense blew the game in the 4th quarter by allowing a 20 yard TD on 3rd and 10, huge, gashing runs by Anderson and Meggett, both with missed tackles, and that 3rd and 13 conversion to Ingram. Norwood was 1-5 in that range, under those circumstances. Did anybody on the staff actually think there was even a 50/50 shot? His track record proved the odds were grossly against us. The bottom line is that the defense folded on the last drive, the offense needed 5 more yards and didn't get it, and we were flat out-coached. Norwood was certainly part of the problem, but it's not like everybody else set up the perfect scenario for a dramatic last second victory either. Basically, we gave Norwood a 20% chance of success based on what he did during the season. You could probably argue it was even a lower percentage chance based on the stakes, but he was 20% good under those basic circumstances.

[TacklingDummy]

I'm not defending Norwood here, but that kick was not the primary reason they lost. I agree, he would have been the hero had he made it, but it would not have been the only reason they won either. The offense scored 1 point per minute of possession. The offense did what it had to do until that last drive. The defense blew the game in the 4th quarter by allowing a 20 yard TD on 3rd and 10, huge, gashing runs by Anderson and Meggett, both with missed tackles, and that 3rd and 13 conversion to Ingram. Norwood was 1-5 in that range, under those circumstances. Did anybody on the staff actually think there was even a 50/50 shot? His track record proved the odds were grossly against us. The bottom line is that the defense folded on the last drive, the offense needed 5 more yards and didn't get it, and we were flat out-coached. Norwood was certainly part of the problem, but it's not like everybody else set up the perfect scenario for a dramatic last second victory either. Basically, we gave Norwood a 20% chance of success based on what he did during the season. You could probably argue it was even a lower percentage chance based on the stakes, but he was 20% good under those basic circumstances.


I agree it wasn't the only reason the Bills lost. It was just one of the main reason they lost.

[justasportsfan]

Norwoods entire carreer as a bill was a good one. Can't be a bust because of 1 game.

[Jan Reimers]

I agree it wasn't the only reason the Bills lost. It was just one of the main reason they lost.
TD, saying Norwood's missed kick was one of the main reasons we lost is to ignore the other 59+ minutes of the game; or like saying that a QB who misses a long, last gasp pass, or a kick returner who fails to take the last kick of the game back for a touchdown, lost the game.

My point is, we needed to play better throughout the game so as not to put Norwood in a position to make a kick that he only made 20% of the time.

[trapezeus]

bruce smith rips that ball out of hoestler's hand for 7 instead of the safety that game is over at that point right there.

[Cleve]

How many points in how many minutes did the K-gun score?

The lack of points could be blamed on the 40+ minutes the Giants had the ball.

Even with all that the Bills still would have won if the kick was good.

Well let's see - just taking a few quotes from the game summary at Wikipedia

"The Bills started out on their next drive with great field position following the free kick, but were forced to punt after 3 plays."

"After forcing Buffalo to punt on its ensuing possession, New York drove to the Bills' 35-yard line. "

"On the Bills' ensuing possession, they could only advance to their own 41-yard line before having to punt"



There are at least 3 futile drives by Buffalo during that game that gained nothing.

The Giants were successful in killing the clock partly because the K-Gun offense, so dominant during the regular season, fizzled when it counted and gave the ball BACK to the Giants on 3 separate occasions.

Oh, and also immediately after that first 3 and out the Giants scored a touchdown. So the Buffalo offense gave them the ball, and an opportunity to put 7 on the board.

[Mr. Pink]

The reason the Bills lost Superbowl XXV in a nutshell was because of Jim Kellys' ego and his lack of calling more running plays.

He hands the ball off more to Thurman Thomas and the Bills win.

Not only was Thurman running wild all over the Giant defense, instead of 3 straight incompletions and then punt, the Bills would have controlled more of the clock.

[justasportsfan]

we lost because our players love to party the night before that sb.

[TacklingDummy]

TD, saying Norwood's missed kick was one of the main reasons we lost is to ignore the other 59+ minutes of the game; or like saying that a QB who misses a long, last gasp pass, or a kick returner who fails to take the last kick of the game back for a touchdown, lost the game.

My point is, we needed to play better throughout the game so as not to put Norwood in a position to make a kick that he only made 20% of the time.

Last play of the game, down by 1, if the kick is good, what's the outcome of the game?

[TacklingDummy]

Well let's see - just taking a few quotes from the game summary at Wikipedia

.
Here's another quote from Wikipedia

"On the Bills' ensuing possession, they could only advance to their own 41-yard line before having to punt, enabling the Giants to take more time off the clock. The Bills finally forced New York to punt and took the ball at their own 10-yard line with 2:16 remaining. Kelly then led them down the field with a mix of scrambles, short passes, and Thomas runs. Buffalo drove to the Giants' 29-yard line, setting up Norwood for a 47-yard field goal attempt with eight seconds left. However, his kick sailed wide right, less than a yard outside of the goalpost upright."

I agree there are many reasons the Bills lost that game. However they were still in position to win it at the end. If it's good, they win. It's really that simple.

[YardRat]

Agree with it or not, the only sure-fire actual difference in that Super Bowl was Norwood's missed kick.

"If Andre Reed hadn't dropped a couple of passes. we would have won", "If Jim Kelly had called more running plays, we would've won", "If the defense would've stepped up on third down or stopped the 9+minute drive, we would have won" are all speculation, and nothing more. All happened during the course of the game, and if any of their results were reversed it would've possibly changed much more than the final score, and not necessarily to our benefit.

Hell, all three scenarios could have come out in our favor, but the change in dynamics could've led to an even bigger loss instead of a win.

Norwood's kick, on the other hand, is unique from any other theoretical outcomes because the result is as true as can be. He makes it, we win...He missed, we lost.

[bflojohn]

Wow, no Jerry Crafts commentary, he singlehandedly got Jim Kelly killed in the home opener against the Jets in 1995 or 1996, IF my memory serves!! That was one BAD offensive right tackle. The rift between Ralph Wilson and Lou Saban clouds an era of championship football for this franchise. The circumstances aside, this incident is a Wall of Shame episode of epic proportions!! I am a little miffed with Darryl Lamonica for NOT beating out Jack Kemp late in the decade of the 60's and keeping a championship calibre QB in the fold, let's face it, that trade is another epic fail in the history of this franchise! That crafty Al Davis, I truly dislike that guy!!!

[dannyek71]

Kirk Chambers

[Philagape]

Agree with it or not, the only sure-fire actual difference in that Super Bowl was Norwood's missed kick.

"If Andre Reed hadn't dropped a couple of passes. we would have won", "If Jim Kelly had called more running plays, we would've won", "If the defense would've stepped up on third down or stopped the 9+minute drive, we would have won" are all speculation, and nothing more. All happened during the course of the game, and if any of their results were reversed it would've possibly changed much more than the final score, and not necessarily to our benefit.

Hell, all three scenarios could have come out in our favor, but the change in dynamics could've led to an even bigger loss instead of a win.

Norwood's kick, on the other hand, is unique from any other theoretical outcomes because the result is as true as can be. He makes it, we win...He missed, we lost.

Which doesn't make it any more significant or blameworthy.

[Ground Chuck]

1968: Sucked as a quarterback. Led to the team having to convert Ed Rutkowski from WR to QB because he and Dan Darragh couldn't hack it. Between the three, a 1-12 record-- a far cry from the dynasty years of just a couple years prior.


Dan Darraugh got hurt. So did Stephenson. I believe Stephenson broke his collarbone.

[DynaPaul]

Lonnie Johnson

[bosshogg21]

Chris burkett - also spoke of buffalo as a jail and praised the jets when they got him. He wanted nothing to do with buffalo and missed out on the glory years while waisting away in ny. Talk about bad timing.

[TheBrownBear]

I have no Bills-related memories prior to about 1984, so I'll start there.

Despicable humans and/or criminally stupid:
OJ - his post-retirement exploits are my only memories
Henry - loved loved loved him as a player, but most non-Bills fans only remember him for bastard children and drug-running
Lynch - underachieving and racking up run-ins with the law, with maybe a promise of more (shenanigans) to come

Incompetent boobs:
Bullough
Erik Flowers
Chris Watson
JD Williams
Mike Williams
Manboob Williams/Jauron
*no more Williamses please!

Guys I just hated for various reasons (but mostly for not fulfilling expectations at critical positions):
Rob Johnson - watching this guy just made me ill
JP Losman - this guy just made me laugh - you know that "laugh to keep from crying" type
McGahee - just a lazy, stupid, me-first douchenozzle

* I do NOT agree with the inclusion of Norwood on this list. If Norwood's on the list, then you might as well put Thurman on the list for losing his helmet or his huge fumble against Dallas (which really cost us that game), or Levy on the list for getting outcoached for four years, etc. Go back and relive 1988. If it wasn't for Norwood's clutch-kicking, that great Bills run might never have even gotten a shot to get rolling.

[Jan Reimers]

Last play of the game, down by 1, if the kick is good, what's the outcome of the game?
Asked and answered, in post #64. But again, Norwood hitting a 1-chance-in-5 field goal would have overcome a bad Bills performance and won the game. It would have negated Levy being outcoached, the Giants holding the ball for 2/3s of the game, Anderson running wild against us, and our failure to make several crucial offensive and defensive plays.

Norwood could have won it and saved the Bills' bacon with a very difficult kick. He did not lose it.

[trapezeus]

this whole thread is depressing. i watched superbowl 25 once live...i remember everything really vividly. until the bills win a superbowl, i can never watch the one we most definitely should have won.

[tat2dmike77]

Eric Flowers feels left out.

So does Todd Collins

[tat2dmike77]

Jake Arians - The kicker during the infamous 2001 season. Ended up getting canned after missing a key extra point in favor of Shayne Graham-- who went on to have a decent career elsewhere. Arians, on the other hand, hasn't been seen since. (Edit: Found the official "Arians Pro Football Academy" page, and Jake is flat-out lying about how an injury supposedly ended his career. No. Suck is what ended your career, so man up.)


:lmao: that is hilarious Arians i forgot all about that non kicking douche