I guess conditioning did cause the injuries.

[HHURRICANE]

Donte Whitner and Poluzny both said that there have been signifigant changes in the level of conditioning to get them out of being the most injured team in the league.

But the posters here said that had nothing to do with it so they must know more than the players and coaches.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I think it would be best to wait until the season to make this claim. What if this new training happens and they still have injuries. I think this claim needs to be made next season, about week 10.

[ddaryl]

I think most of us knew there was something very wrong in the way the Bills handled their conditioning.


it was obvious on the field wether players were injured or not

[trapezeus]

again, conditioning was part of the problem. not the entire problem. having a small defense play 35-45 minutes a game also hurt the team. It's like skiing when you are exhausted. that's when you get injured.

the pulls and sprains come from bad conditioning.

the erik wood breaks and tears are freak things.

It would be interesting to see of our x number of injuries last year, how many might have been preventable from better conditioning.

[DMBcrew36]

Does anyone want to sign up for the Buffalo Athletic Club program run by the Bills (now former) conditioning coach LOL

Meh, I doubt it's still going on. Anyways, I always laughed when I saw those ads last year - "yes, please, allow me to pay you so that I can be conditioned to be injured."

[trapezeus]

if i lived in buffalo, i'd workout with the ex-pro trainer. the difference being is that no one is hitting me. i bet you'd be in the shape of your life. you just wouldn't be ready to play an NFL game 16 games a year.

[DMBcrew36]

if i lived in buffalo, i'd workout with the ex-pro trainer. the difference being is that no one is hitting me. i bet you'd be in the shape of your life. you just wouldn't be ready to play an NFL game 16 games a year.

Touche. Ofcourse the program was just a cut-out copy, written up thing. It wasn't like he was working 1-on-1 with you, while customizing a plan for you.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I've long felt that the Bills strength and conditioning program was the root of the Bills injury woes. I have zero doubt that game time loss due to injury will be cut in half this year as opposed to the average of the last 3 years.

On a side note... 4th quarter swooning will become a distant memory.

[Pinkerton Security]

Donte Whitner and Poluzny both said that there have been signifigant changes in the level of conditioning to get them out of being the most injured team in the league.

But the posters here said that had nothing to do with it so they must know more than the players and coaches.

Whoever said that Camp Jauron had nothing to do with the number of injuries was in denial..i dont really remember anyone saying these things anyways, so I'm not sure what warranted this semi-"i-told-you-so" thread...stupid.

[theanswer74]

Injuries happen.

Thats Juaron's bumper sticker.

But still, if it was all conditioning you wouldn't see a team like NE lead the NFL in injuries a couple years ago.

The types of injuries the Bills were getting, I dont see how conditioning would change that. How would squats help Eric Woods leg? Mitchell's ACL? Poz's forearm? The Bills had some muscle injuries last year, not many though.

[methos4ever]

I think the biggest difference in the two methods, besides the lifting change was accountability. Jauron was under the assumption that as professionals, these guys didn't need to be babysat as they lifted and ran. Gailey and co are going under the college "you're on scholarship" method of watching everything.

Gailey and Nix may be onto something with the specialized S & C coaches, makes a lot of sense.

But make sure you stretch the finger you're pointing at people that defended the old way, wouldn't want you to pull that and the hand you're patting yourself on the back with!

[FlyingDutchman]

i remember numerous threads callin on firing the conditioning staff bc of injuries, i dont remember any defending them.....

[WeAreArthurMoates]

Hurricane, what has been with your attitude lately. For once your calling out the negative nancy's, our we in bizzaro world.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Injuries happen.

Thats Juaron's bumper sticker.

But still, if it was all conditioning you wouldn't see a team like NE lead the NFL in injuries a couple years ago.

The types of injuries the Bills were getting, I dont see how conditioning would change that. How would squats help Eric Woods leg? Mitchell's ACL? Poz's forearm? The Bills had some muscle injuries last year, not many though.Leading the league 3 years in a row is more than just coincidence... Strength and conditioning are at the top of the list of suspects.

Stronger muscles protect against joint and bone injuries... Better conditioning protect against injuries due to fatigue (ass dragging).

What was the name of the drug that was being used to quicken the healing of soft tissue injuries? Wasn't it identified as causing more severe injuries upon the player's return to action?

[ServoBillieves]

I was a strong advocate of the "fire the S&C coach before anyone else" bandwagon (was I the only one?) I mean, even in the old regimes defense, if you're sticking your 22 best players on offense and defense out there and they're getting injured, it's tough to work with.

[DraftBoy]

i remember numerous threads callin on firing the conditioning staff bc of injuries, i dont remember any defending them.....

He's still pissy because he thinks you can condition bones to not break and ligaments to not tear. He had a point before he attempted last season to take it to the nth degree. That's when he got called out for it.

[Dr. Lecter]

Donte Whitner and Poluzny both said that there have been signifigant changes in the level of conditioning to get them out of being the most injured team in the league.

But the posters here said that had nothing to do with it so they must know more than the players and coaches.
I've also heard players say that the OT position will be just fine. Ive heard the coaches say the same thing.

I assume you also think the same now, since the players and coaches have said so.

[Nighthawk]

Anybody who believes that conditioning was 100% at fault for all the injuries is fooling themselves.

On the flip side, anybody who believes that conditioning had nothing to do with the injuries, is also fooling themselves.

I believe both sides are right...some injuries could have been prevented with better training and conditioning, but some couldn't...broken bones, etc.

[ddaryl]

i remember numerous threads callin on firing the conditioning staff bc of injuries, i dont remember any defending them.....

I was pissed off when we let Rusty Jones go and I knew that was a mistake. I admit I never thought that the problems from letting Rusty go would manifest itself the way it did, but it turned out to be much worse then anyone could have predicted :clump:

[ddaryl]

Anybody who believes that conditioning was 100% at fault for all the injuries is fooling themselves.

On the flip side, anybody who believes that conditioning had nothing to do with the injuries, is also fooling themselves.

I believe both sides are right...some injuries could have been prevented with better training and conditioning, but some couldn't...broken bones, etc.


Well I don't blame conditioning for all the injury problems, but lets face it our injury problems definitley increased because of it.

What was even more apparent was the way the team played late in games and later in the season... They weren't able ot hang well with outher NFL clubs....

[HHURRICANE]

Whoever said that Camp Jauron had nothing to do with the number of injuries was in denial..i dont really remember anyone saying these things anyways, so I'm not sure what warranted this semi-"i-told-you-so" thread...stupid.

Uhhh, there were a bunch of people here. You like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Dr. Lecter just to name a few.

[HHURRICANE]

He's still pissy because he thinks you can condition bones to not break and ligaments to not tear. He had a point before he attempted last season to take it to the nth degree. That's when he got called out for it.

Pinkdog, to my point!

Yes Draftboy I was right and even now you want to argue the point.

Bones break and ligamnets tear when you are out of position, fatigued, etc. That's why people break their legs on the last ski run of the day.

[Yasgur's Farm]

LOL... A ski run that results in a broken leg is always the last run of the day. That's why people say that line... Because it's a joke.

[Dr. Lecter]

Uhhh, there were a bunch of people here. You like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Dr. Lecter just to name a few.


You only named one and not a few.............

[BillsWin]

It's a proven fact that better strength, and flexibility can help reduce certain injuries. But, there is not much you can do about broken bones. Sure you can drink more milk for calcium or take vitamins, but the fact is if a 350 lb NT falls on your leg and part of it bends one way, and the other part another way, you're probably going to break it.

A helmet to the forearm can break the arm if it hits it just right and has enough force behind it.

Not much you can do for torn knee ligaments either, if the injury was sustained in some freak twist of the knee, or someone fell on it.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

Pinkdog, to my point!

Yes Draftboy I was right and even now you want to argue the point.

Bones break and ligamnets tear when you are out of position, fatigued, etc. That's why people break their legs on the last ski run of the day.

I def agree with you on this to some extent. Woods injury happend cause Hangartner was out of position (coaching) and fatigue (training) caused him to push his defender into Wood's leg instead of straight up block him. I said it once it happend that if this team was more physical and stronger, Wood wouldn't have had his leg snapped into two.

[theanswer74]

Leading the league 3 years in a row is more than just coincidence... Strength and conditioning are at the top of the list of suspects.

Stronger muscles protect against joint and bone injuries... Better conditioning protect against injuries due to fatigue (ass dragging).

What was the name of the drug that was being used to quicken the healing of soft tissue injuries? Wasn't it identified as causing more severe injuries upon the player's return to action?
Actually I think it was only 1 or 2 years they lead the league under Jauron, one year they were one of the least injured, another year they were right in the middle.

Plus the Bills put players on IR that shouldn't have been on IR.

Last year was terrible injury wise. I think Buffalo has had 4-5 players during Juaron's 4 years get hurt right after signing off the street with Buffalo. I mean how can you blame that on the Bills.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I def agree with you on this to some extent. Woods injury happend cause Hangartner was out of position (coaching) and fatigue (training) caused him to push his defender into Wood's leg instead of straight up block him. I said it once it happend that if this team was more physical and stronger, Wood wouldn't have had his leg snapped into two.Very good example... And just 1 of many circumstances that can atest to bones being broken due to lack of S&C.

[theanswer74]

Pinkdog, to my point!

Yes Draftboy I was right and even now you want to argue the point.

Bones break and ligamnets tear when you are out of position, fatigued, etc. That's why people break their legs on the last ski run of the day.

Butler, Mitchell, and Wood did not break their leg because they were out of position.

[theanswer74]

I def agree with you on this to some extent. Woods injury happend cause Hangartner was out of position (coaching) and fatigue (training) caused him to push his defender into Wood's leg instead of straight up block him. I said it once it happend that if this team was more physical and stronger, Wood wouldn't have had his leg snapped into two.

Same thing happened to Kris Jenkins against the Bills, the Jets are not physical or conditioned?

[DraftBoy]

Pinkdog, to my point!

Yes Draftboy I was right and even now you want to argue the point.

Bones break and ligamnets tear when you are out of position, fatigued, etc. That's why people break their legs on the last ski run of the day.

:yawn: wrong before, still wrong now.

Being out of position has nothing to do with S&C, and faitgue can be as much mental as physical. Did we need better conditioning? Yes of course. But is that the reason we had some many ACL tears and broken bones? No not at all.

[DraftBoy]

You only named one and not a few.............

No he named me next. You knew he was going to try and call us both out despite not having an shred of medical evidence.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Actually I think it was only 1 or 2 years they lead the league under Jauron, one year they were one of the least injured, another year they were right in the middle.

Plus the Bills put players on IR that shouldn't have been on IR.

Last year was terrible injury wise. I think Buffalo has had 4-5 players during Juaron's 4 years get hurt right after signing off the street with Buffalo. I mean how can you blame that on the Bills.The facts...

1) Players being signed off the street and thrust into action is a result of injuries... Many of which may have resulted from poor S&C.

2) Players signed off the street, thrust into actionv and suffering injury reinforces the poor S&C argument.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Bills topped the list in '09... Still checking on '08, '07, '06



Fewer players went on injured reserve this season than in the last two, with the Buffalo Bills (http://www.billszone.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF) leading the NFL with 20 players lost.

"A lot of the things that happened to this team this year injury-wise is unbelievable," new general manager Buddy Nix said. "And that's a major concern. And I think it's something you've got to address and see if it's something that we're doing or not doing, or whether it's just bad luck. I think we've had it two to three years in a row. But anyway, that keeps you from getting better."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8158cbb3&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

[HHURRICANE]

I def agree with you on this to some extent. Woods injury happend cause Hangartner was out of position (coaching) and fatigue (training) caused him to push his defender into Wood's leg instead of straight up block him. I said it once it happend that if this team was more physical and stronger, Wood wouldn't have had his leg snapped into two.


Post of the day. But somebody will still find fault with this.

[HHURRICANE]

Players are being quoted as saying that the lack of conditioning led to injuries but Lecter and Draftboy are still going to argue about it.

[theanswer74]

Bills topped the list in '09... Still checking on '08, '07, '06

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8158cbb3&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true
Here is 2008, dont know if it is correct.

15 teams had more IR's.

http://walterfootball.com/injuryreportnfl.php

[WeAreArthurMoates]

Same thing happened to Kris Jenkins against the Bills, the Jets are not physical or conditioned?

Oh you mean the 350 pound overweight man who tipped the scales at 400 at one point. Injuries happen all the time but poor conditioning most certainly help cause them.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Bills were not at the top of the NFL IR's in '08... But '07 was another story...



With Kawika Mitchell and Marcus Buggs the next two players to be placed on injured reserve with season ending knee injuries, the Bills are on pace to rival the league-leading injured reserve tally the team had in 2007.
Two seasons ago there was an inordinate number of season ending injuries. Buffalo had 17 players on injured reserve by the end of that campaign
http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2009/10/12/bills-on-pace-to-rival-07-i-r-numbers/

[Jan Reimers]

I will be the first to admit that I thought most of our injuries were NOT due to faulty conditioning. We seemed to have more broken bones, torn ligaments and other injuries that couldn't be avoided, no matter what.

If I was wrong, I will be the first to admit it. But we're way too early to make any sort of judgment, and just because Whitner and Poz like the new program is not proof that it will cut down injuries. The new system should help us play stronger and fitter, however, which has to help.

[theanswer74]

Players are being quoted as saying that the lack of conditioning led to injuries but Lecter and Draftboy are still going to argue about it.
They think and hope its the reason.

Was Jauron soft? Yes. Was Jauron the only soft coach? No.

[Billz_fan]

I think another thing that comes into play with injuries are guys that are not playing at full speed. Just going through the motions.

[theanswer74]

Bills were not at the top of the NFL IR's in '08... But '07 was another story...

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2009/10/12/bills-on-pace-to-rival-07-i-r-numbers/

Yes, and most of the players the Bills have put on IR in 2009 and 2007 are nobodies. There are also players that could have returned like Poz and McKelvin.

2006 and 2008 the Bills were relatively healthy.

[ddaryl]

LOL... A ski run that results in a broken leg is always the last run of the day. That's why people say that line... Because it's a joke.

a real skiier squeezes in 2 more super G's before they let a little thing like a broken leg ruin their afternoon...

[JCBills]

Donte Whitner and Poluzny both said that there have been signifigant changes in the level of conditioning to get them out of being the most injured team in the league.

But the posters here said that had nothing to do with it so they must know more than the players and coaches.

Really? Throwing an entire board in with that statement?

I've thought for a while that the massive string of injuries year after year can't just be coincidence. It could be something as simple as not stretching enough, doing the right kind of stretches, doing the proper exercises the day after the game, etc. We don't know what it was, but I'm glad it's going to change, and I don't think that's something all that hard to agree on.

[theanswer74]

Really? Throwing an entire board in with that statement?

I've thought for a while that the massive string of injuries year after year can't just be coincidence. It could be something as simple as not stretching enough, doing the right kind of stretches, doing the proper exercises the day after the game, etc. We don't know what it was, but I'm glad it's going to change, and I don't think that's something all that hard to agree on.
It wasnt year after year though.

We actually were very good injury wise the exact same amount we were very bad.

[OpIv37]

Donte Whitner and Poluzny both said that there have been signifigant changes in the level of conditioning to get them out of being the most injured team in the league.

But the posters here said that had nothing to do with it so they must know more than the players and coaches.

I said it before and I'll say it again: It's tough to prove a correlation between conditioning and injuries. And no amount of conditioning can prevent all injuries (ie, Poz's broken arm).

However:
a) if something doesn't work, CHANGE IT. The Bills had an inordinate amount of injuries throughout the Jauron era. More conditioning could only help, so it's worth a shot.
b) the lack of conditioning CLEARLY affected the team late in games, as there were probably a dozen examples of the Bills being either close or tied (or even leading) in the 3rd quarter, only to be unable to finish the game. S

So, more/improved conditioning is absolutely a good thing.

[YardRat]

I was thrilled when the team hired two S&C coaches...shows a real commitment to the program and emphasizes how important it is.

Tough to tell if the lack of the above was a major contributor in years past, but you certainly can't discount the possibility. There are a slew of reasons for injuries, not limited to those already mentioned such as fatigue, lack of strength etc, but also including size, lack of skill, mental errors and so on. I know some will disagree with me probably, but you can't overlook those either...players who are being pushed around because they're taking on much bigger opponents, can't make a move, or put themselves in a bad position because of a mental error ultimately put the other players on the field in a situation where they have to react differently than expected to overcome the mistake, and that in turn puts them in positions that open up a greater likelihood of getting hurt.

Being better fit will certainly help, but so will getting bigger and smarter.

[theanswer74]

I said it before and I'll say it again: It's tough to prove a correlation between conditioning and injuries. And no amount of conditioning can prevent all injuries (ie, Poz's broken arm).

However:
a) if something doesn't work, CHANGE IT. The Bills had an inordinate amount of injuries throughout the Jauron era. More conditioning could only help, so it's worth a shot.
b) the lack of conditioning CLEARLY affected the team late in games, as there were probably a dozen examples of the Bills being either close or tied (or even leading) in the 3rd quarter, only to be unable to finish the game. S

So, more/improved conditioning is absolutely a good thing.
I keep saying it, but why would they change what they did in 2008 when they were one of the least injured teams in the NFL?

Both years they had crazy injuries they were healthy the year before. Its strange.

[bigbub2352]

Donte Whitner and Poluzny both said that there have been signifigant changes in the level of conditioning to get them out of being the most injured team in the league.

But the posters here said that had nothing to do with it so they must know more than the players and coaches.


i started a bunch of threads over the course of the skeletor regime about this and argued with many on here cause of it

even the players are saying it dj was a complete loser

[Dr. Lecter]

And yet, for three years running the Patriots had more injuries than the Bills.

But facts are not important in this discussion.

[OpIv37]

And yet, for three years running the Patriots had more injuries than the Bills.

But facts are not important in this discussion.

define "more." More games lost to injuries? More guys on IR? How many were starters? How many games were lost by starters?

[Dr. Lecter]

define "more." More games lost to injuries? More guys on IR? How many were starters? How many games were lost by starters?

I'll see if I can find it and post it again. I have in the past.

Tomorrow. I am off to bed.

[theanswer74]

define "more." More games lost to injuries? More guys on IR? How many were starters? How many games were lost by starters?

Here is a great article and statitical view of inuries. Buffalo was #1 in what they call "Adjusted Games Lost" in 2009.

However, for the people taht say every year this happens, they show Buffalo was also #1 in biggest change in "Adjusted Games Lost" from 2008 to 2009.

So if they were doing everything wrong condition wise in 2009, what were they doing to stay healthy in 2008?

New England was 22nd last year, so injuries didnt hurt them much last season. But New England had a terrible AGL in 2008. Again, it all points to LUCK IMO.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2010/2009-adjusted-games-lost-totals

[Historian]

Truth be told, this team has not been physical since Rusty Jones was allowed to leave under TD.

Remember he was not just a strength and conditioning coach....he was also a nutritionist.

A very good one who took a 305 pound Bruce Smith and carved him into a 273 pound sack machine that had to be accounted for on every play.

The teams that focus on this aspect as much as the Xs and Os seem to be the teams that are more often than not successful, as well as less injury prone.

[Buffalogic]

It's not just conditioning it's our field too. A lot of other players having great years came up to Buffalo and received season ending injuries. Kris Jenkins and Owen Daniels among others.

Use some real grass or something it's an outdoor stadium.

[DraftBoy]

It's not just conditioning it's our field too. A lot of other players having great years came up to Buffalo and received season ending injuries. Kris Jenkins and Owen Daniels among others.

Use some real grass or something it's an outdoor stadium.

Field turf has been proven to cause less injuries by numerous studies.

Here is just one;
http://www.sportssafety.org/presentations/field-turf-vs-natural-grass/

[Johnny Bugmenot]

2008 when they were one of the least injured teams in the NFL? That's a false premise if ever I saw one. I don't recall this team ever being one of the least injured teams in the NFL.

[Yasgur's Farm]

It's not just conditioning it's our field too. A lot of other players having great years came up to Buffalo and received season ending injuries. Kris Jenkins and Owen Daniels among others.

Use some real grass or something it's an outdoor stadium.I believe Kris Jenkins was injured in NJ.

[theanswer74]

That's a false premise if ever I saw one. I don't recall this team ever being one of the least injured teams in the NFL.
They were. 15 teams had more IR's then Buffalo in 2008. Then there were 7 teams with 7-8 IR's, Buffalo was in that group. 2006 they were even better.

[Yasgur's Farm]

That's a false premise if ever I saw one. I don't recall this team ever being one of the least injured teams in the NFL.I was looking at the wikipedia page yesterday (couldn't find it just now)... The Bills had 8 on IR in '08. While that wasn't the worst in the NFL, it wasn't the best either... It was middle of the pack.

[Yasgur's Farm]

They were. 15 teams had more IR's then Buffalo in 2008. Then there were 7 teams with 7-8 IR's, Buffalo was in that group. 2006 they were even better.Doesn't come anywhere near the odds of Buffalo finishing worst in the NFL 2 out of 3 years... Those odds indicate that it's not simply a coincidence... Like it or not... Those odds are 1:1024.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Or is it 1:32,736? 1/((32 X 32 X 32) - 32)

[Historian]

Field turf has been proven to cause less injuries by numerous studies.


Even the old fashoned 1970-80's astroturf was by no means an injury catalyst.

I remember talking to one of the Bills former trainers from that era....a guy named Bill Ford, who swore up and down that astroturf didn't cause more injuries.

I find it hard to believe myself, but I guess Ill defer to the experts on this one.

Besides, while real grass at the Ralph would look nice, it would be a mess by mid-October.