The Lynch situation reflects poorly on this organization.

[HHURRICANE]

I think it's very easy to villify Lynch but there is a very troublesome aspect to the whole situation.

First off, it's fairly obvious that his teammates like him. The Bills are notorious for handling players poorly. Like or hate Peter's nobody can argue that the front office botched the entire handling of the situation.

Fred Jackson is a big Lycnh supporter and you would think he'd be happy not to have him around but it's the total opposite.

I believe that the players in general have little or no respect for the owner and the organization. Lynch essentially getting a free pass from his teammates is pretty telling. The fact that he pretty much put Chris Brown in his place at the PC tells me he's not too worried about retribution either.

The fact that among his teammates he looks like the victim is disturbing.

[hydro]

Fred Jackson is a big Lycnh supporter and you would think he'd be happy not to have him around but it's the total opposite.


This sentence doesn't not make none sense.

[OpIv37]

Whether Lynch's teammates like him or dislike him is their business.

However, if his teammates see him as a victim, they are friggin stupid. Lynch is the one who got himself suspended for acting like a thug, then performed poorly when he was able to play again. He's also one mistake away from a 1 year suspension.

This org needs to decide if they only want "high character" guys or if they are willing to sacrifice some character for performance. They sit on the fence on that issue. But people seem to forget that last year Lynch had both character issues and performance issues. If the org is fed up with him, it's his own damn fault.

[psubills62]

As usual, you've got a heck of a lot of assumptions in there, HH.

[streetkings01]

I think it's very easy to villify Lynch but there is a very troublesome aspect to the whole situation.

First off, it's fairly obvious that his teammates like him. The Bills are notorious for handling players poorly. Like or hate Peter's nobody can argue that the front office botched the entire handling of the situation.

Fred Jackson is a big Lycnh supporter and you would think he'd be happy not to have him around but it's the total opposite.

I believe that the players in general have little or no respect for the owner and the organization. Lynch essentially getting a free pass from his teammates is pretty telling. The fact that he pretty much put Chris Brown in his place at the PC tells me he's not too worried about retribution either.

The fact that among his teammates he looks like the victim is disturbing.How did they botch it?

#1) They signed him to a long term contract in 2006 which he signed with no complaint.
#2) In 2008 after playing only 2 years of his deal, he held out of OTAs, minicamp and training camp without even speaking to anyone about a contract demand.
#3)The Bills offered him a contract that would've made him a top 5 paid LT in the NFL and he declined wanting to be the highest paid even though he clearly isn't even the best LT in the division.

The Bills didn't botch anything when it came to Peters.

[Bill Cody]

I think it's very easy to villify Lynch

I agree with this much. The rest of the post? The usual drivel.

[Pinkerton Security]

hahahahahaha wowwwwww

Lets state the facts:
- Lynch is an extremely likable personality...this has been well documented since he was in college. People gravitate towards his fun-loving nature.
- His Bills teammates like him
- His Bills teammates welcomed his return to practice.

Then from there you make the leap that the Bills players dont respect their owners.

I can see how you could make that giant stretch and can see where the thought process comes from. However, it is just that: a giggggggantic stretch.

[mightysimi]

How did they botch it?

#1) They signed him to a long term contract in 2006 which he signed with no complaint.
#2) In 2008 after playing only 2 years of his deal, he held out of OTAs, minicamp and training camp without even speaking to anyone about a contract demand.
#3)The Bills offered him a contract that would've made him a top 5 paid LT in the NFL and he declined wanting to be the highest paid even though he clearly isn't even the best LT in the division.

The Bills didn't botch anything when it came to Peters.

Agreed. The only people who did anything to screw it up was the rest of the league for voting him to the 2nd pro bowl. I mean a guy has 11.5 sacks against in 13 games and Clady has .5 in 16 games. Then they vote in Peters? Which probably upted his demands even more.

[OpIv37]

Agreed. The only people who did anything to screw it up was the rest of the league for voting him to the 2nd pro bowl. I mean a guy has 11.5 sacks against in 13 games and Clady has .5 in 16 games. Then they vote in Peters? Which probably upted his demands even more.

First, "sacks given up" is a subjective statistic. It assumes the QB didn't hold the ball too long. It assumes the person doing the evaluating knew the blocking schemes. And it's different depending on who you ask.

Second, we currently have Jamon Meredith and Demetrius Bell fighting it out to be the starter at left tackle. Even if you guys are right and there was no way the Bills could have kept Peters, they have failed miserably in terms of replacing him with someone equal or better.

[Bill Cody]

HH logic:

OJ was well liked by his teammates. Therefore, if it wasn't for Bills ownership Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman would be alive today.

[Pinkerton Security]

HH logic:

OJ was well liked by his teammates. Therefore, if it wasn't for Bills ownership Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman would be alive today.

:lolabove:

[EricStratton]

With very few exceptions players don't bad mouth other players in terms of contracts and organizational issues because they may end up in their shoes with this or another organization someday.

The fact that players don't publicly bash a guy means very little although if they do (like Fletcher in Washington right now) that speaks volumes.

[Bill Cody]

First, "sacks given up" is a subjective statistic. It assumes the QB didn't hold the ball too long. It assumes the person doing the evaluating knew the blocking schemes. And it's different depending on who you ask.

Second, we currently have Jamon Meredith and Demetrius Bell fighting it out to be the starter at left tackle. Even if you guys are right and there was no way the Bills could have kept Peters, they have failed miserably in terms of replacing him with someone equal or better.

You do understand those are 2 separate issues right? Do us all a favor: feel free to blast away about the Bills failures to aquire players. But leave the GD Peters issue alone, ok?

[OpIv37]

You do understand those are 2 separate issues right? Do us all a favor: feel free to blast away about the Bills failures to aquire players. But leave the GD Peters issue alone, ok?

Nope.

This has been a consistent problem with this team. They have a player who's over the hill or who has become a pain in the ass or whose contract has become more than the player is worth. So they dump them. Then what happens? They attempt to replace them with their back-ups or UDFA's or practice squad players, and the team ends up being worse off than if they had just kept the guy.

We've had DT issues since Sam Adams left.

Over a 1-2 year period, the Bills dumped the entire starting LB corps of Spikes, Fletcher and Posey. We've had LB issues ever since.

Hell, just this year we let Reed and TO walk but have yet to replace them with anything equal or better.

In a situation like the Peters one, you either give the guy what he wants or you find a viable alternative. The Bills did neither.

[FlyingDutchman]

yeah the buffalo bills lit his blunt and stashed a gun in the trunk. The buffalo bills were in the back seat of the SUV tellin him to get the hell out of there after he hit someone. And the buffalo bills were the cause of his downfall into little production causing them to take another RB . Now theyre gonna set up CJ Spiller the same way. Lynch is a big boy and his cut his own path in his career...now hes being a little baby bc hes going to be replaced bc he cant do his job at the level he should. He and we have nobody to blame but Marshawn Lynch

[Bill Cody]

In a situation like the Peters one, you either give the guy what he wants or you find a viable alternative. The Bills did neither.

One more time: replace him with a good player, replace him with a bad player, replace him with a cardboard cut out, PETERS HAD TO GO. We got reasonable compensation. I never want to hear that ****ers name again. Thanks.

[jimbledsoe]

I think it's very easy to villify Lynch but there is a very troublesome aspect to the whole situation.

First off, it's fairly obvious that his teammates like him. The Bills are notorious for handling players poorly. Like or hate Peter's nobody can argue that the front office botched the entire handling of the situation.

Fred Jackson is a big Lycnh supporter and you would think he'd be happy not to have him around but it's the total opposite.

I believe that the players in general have little or no respect for the owner and the organization. Lynch essentially getting a free pass from his teammates is pretty telling. The fact that he pretty much put Chris Brown in his place at the PC tells me he's not too worried about retribution either.

The fact that among his teammates he looks like the victim is disturbing.

The only reason the Lynch situation reflects poorly on the organization is because most people outside of Buffalo (including the talking heads), do not realize that Lynch is just trying to leave the team. They think he is holding out for more money. The organization did not get him into trouble with the league, or lose his starting spot for him, and did not ask him if he wants to be traded. He did that all himself.

The organization is handling this the only way they can. Lynch needs to focus on football here in Buffalo and everthing will be fine. He will be the best third option in the league and will probably see more playing time than that.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

How are the Bills at fault. They don't want to trade him for chicken scratch and wants him on this team. Did they tell him not to report?

[Ron Burgundy]

The Bills didn't botch anything when it came to Peters.

Depends on how you feel about Peters.

If you feel he's one of the top left tackles in football, they sure as hell botched it, because we've had nothing but awfulness at LT since.

If you think he isn't one of the best tackles in the NFL, then we did fine by getting some draft compensation out of an overrated guy.

[OpIv37]

One more time: replace him with a good player, replace him with a bad player, replace him with a cardboard cut out, PETERS HAD TO GO. We got reasonable compensation. I never want to hear that ****ers name again. Thanks.

The situation is not resolved until we find someone equal or better to take his spot.

[mightysimi]

First, "sacks given up" is a subjective statistic. It assumes the QB didn't hold the ball too long. It assumes the person doing the evaluating knew the blocking schemes. And it's different depending on who you ask.

Second, we currently have Jamon Meredith and Demetrius Bell fighting it out to be the starter at left tackle. Even if you guys are right and there was no way the Bills could have kept Peters, they have failed miserably in terms of replacing him with someone equal or better.

You are right is is subjective but, that is a huge discrepancy. I guess it also points out that the pro bowl voting is largely based on name recognition.

[OpIv37]

You are right is is subjective but, that is a huge discrepancy. I guess it also points out that the pro bowl voting is largely based on name recognition.

I absolutely agree with that. I know fan votes are only 1/3 of the total or so, but fans go to vote for guys on their favorite team that they think deserve it. If a player on their team at a certain position isn't Pro Bowl worthy, they vote for the first name they recognize.

[ddaryl]

Lynch made his own bed

end of discussion !

[FlyingDutchman]

The situation is not resolved until we find someone equal or better to take his spot.

maybe we didnt find his spot exactly and yes it is still a glaring hole, however we didnt exactly miss with Eric Wood who we got for Peters which fixed another glaring hole

[Nighthawk]

Eh, we all dislike how this organization has been running the past few years, but not EVERYTHING they do is wrong or their fault.

[OpIv37]

maybe we didnt find his spot exactly and yes it is still a glaring hole, however we didnt exactly miss with Eric Wood who we got for Peters which fixed another glaring hole

Good point.

[Bill Cody]

The situation is not resolved until we find someone equal or better to take his spot.

Absurd. By that logic we "botched the Jim Kelly retirement situation". Sometimes things end and not always ideally. If Logan Mankins manages to shoot his way out of town in NE and the Pats deal him for picks and end up starting a mediocre Nick Kazur instead do they have to wear that millstone around their necks forever? I think not. Peters had to go and I for one am glad the greedy bum is gone. Do we need to upgrade the position now? Sure we do along with about 14 others. I am now officially done talking about that former Bill forever.

[ddaryl]

How did they botch it?

#1) They signed him to a long term contract in 2006 which he signed with no complaint.
#2) In 2008 after playing only 2 years of his deal, he held out of OTAs, minicamp and training camp without even speaking to anyone about a contract demand.
#3)The Bills offered him a contract that would've made him a top 5 paid LT in the NFL and he declined wanting to be the highest paid even though he clearly isn't even the best LT in the division.

The Bills didn't botch anything when it came to Peters.


that's the way I rememebr it..

I remember Peters forcing the Bills hand, and Peters and his agent being the asswipes in this situation...

[OpIv37]

Absurd. By that logic we "botched the Jim Kelly retirement situation". Sometimes things end and not always ideally. If Logan Mankins manages to shoot his way out of town in NE and the Pats deal him for picks and end up starting a mediocre Nick Kazur instead do they have to wear that millstone around their necks forever? I think not. Peters had to go and I for one am glad the greedy bum is gone. Do we need to upgrade the position now? Sure we do along with about 14 others. I am now officially done talking about that former Bill forever.

the team can't botch a retirement because a retirement is up to the player, not the team. Butler screwed us by retiring so young, but I can't really fault the team because it wasn't up to them.

And yes, if that happens, then NE failed to resolve the situation.

Getting rid of a player who is a problem/overpaid/over the hill etc is only half of the solution. The other half is finding a viable replacement. Over the years, the Bills have consistently failed at the second half.

[Goobylal]

First, "sacks given up" is a subjective statistic. It assumes the QB didn't hold the ball too long. It assumes the person doing the evaluating knew the blocking schemes. And it's different depending on who you ask.

Second, we currently have Jamon Meredith and Demetrius Bell fighting it out to be the starter at left tackle. Even if you guys are right and there was no way the Bills could have kept Peters, they have failed miserably in terms of replacing him with someone equal or better.
First of all, the guys responsible for not replacing Peters are gone. Second of all, their plan was to have Walker play LT, but they cut him before the season started and promoted a guy who wasn't ready to play yet. I'd have taken Walker over what they had at the position last year. Third, let's wait to see who Bell, Meredith, or Wang perform this year before we say they haven't addressed LT.

[Goobylal]

The situation is not resolved until we find someone equal or better to take his spot.
So the better thing would have been to pay him $10M/year to be an overrated player, or let him play under his old contract and watch him give a half-hearted effort? No thanks. I think getting a 1st, 4th, and 7th this year was a great deal for a former UDFA who isn't as good as he thinks he is.

[Goobylal]

I agree with everyone who says that HH is off-the-mark, yet again. The Bills handled Lynch the best way they could.

[HHURRICANE]

Time out!!

Where did I say that Lynch didn't deserve his own bad press? His actions are completely unaccetable. However, his teammates didn't say one thing like "yeah, we need him here to learn the playbook etc." He got a complete pass. You don't find that disturbing?

Furthermore, his PC, as many of you have already stated, was far from respectful of the organization.

Since when is Lynch in the drivers seat?

As for Peters the organization created the Peters issue by paying guys that weren't in the same league more than his "new contract" paid. Again, in the real world if I am better at something than another guy I expect to be paid more. You guys want to act like football isn't a business. I like how we give one of the worst run franchises a pass.

[OpIv37]

First of all, the guys responsible for not replacing Peters are gone. Second of all, their plan was to have Walker play LT, but they cut him before the season started and promoted a guy who wasn't ready to play yet. I'd have taken Walker over what they had at the position last year. Third, let's wait to see who Bell, Meredith, or Wang perform this year before we say they haven't addressed LT.

Brandon...Still here.
Modrak....Still here.
Overdorf...Still here.
Ralph...Still here.

The people who could have replaced Peters ARE still here.

I agree on Walker- they picked a terrible time to cut him.

I've seen enough of Bell. The guy doesn't have it. I don't have a lot of faith in Meredith and Wang isn't ready.

[Goobylal]

Time out!!

Where did I say that Lynch didn't deserve his own bad press? His actions are completely unaccetable. However, his teammates didn't say one thing like "yeah, we need him here to learn the playbook etc." He got a complete pass. You don't find that disturbing?
Wrong. Fred Jackson said that Lynch needed to be there at OTA's because he was missing important stuff.


Furthermore, his PC, as many of you have already stated, was far from respectful of the organization.

Since when is Lynch in the drivers seat?

As for Peters the organization created the Peters issue by paying guys that weren't in the same league more than his "new contract" paid. Again, in the real world if I am better at something than another guy I expect to be paid more. You guys want to act like football isn't a business. I like how we give one of the worst run franchises a pass.
Lynch told it like it was. He wants to play football. If it's not with the Bills, it might be somewhere else. And with the Bills having Jackson and drafting Spiller, carries will be harder to come by.

As for Peters, regardless of who the Bills added in FA, he was going to ask for top LT money. What Walker and Dockery got had nothing to do with him.

[Goobylal]

Brandon...Still here.
Modrak....Still here.
Overdorf...Still here.
Ralph...Still here.

The people who could have replaced Peters ARE still here.
Brandon, Overdorf, and Ralph had nothing to do with the football decisions, outside the coaches running personnel decisions by Ralph and maybe Brandon. As for Modrak, he was/is mostly involved in drafting players. Again the plan was for Walker to play LT, and then the coaches decided to cut him.


I agree on Walker- they picked a terrible time to cut him.

I've seen enough of Bell. The guy doesn't have it. I don't have a lot of faith in Meredith and Wang isn't ready.
Time will tell.

[OpIv37]

Brandon, Overdorf, and Ralph had nothing to do with the football decisions, outside the coaches running personnel decisions by Ralph and maybe Brandon. As for Modrak, he was/is mostly involved in drafting players. Again the plan was for Walker to play LT, and then the coaches decided to cut him.


Time will tell.

Brandon doesn't have a hand in football decisions now, but he did last year.

[Goobylal]

Brandon doesn't have a hand in football decisions now, but he did last year.
I doubt that he did last year. But assuming he did, as you stated, he's no longer making football decisions now. So...

[mayotm]

Brandon...Still here.
Modrak....Still here.
Overdorf...Still here.
Ralph...Still here.

The people who could have replaced Peters ARE still here.

I agree on Walker- they picked a terrible time to cut him.

I've seen enough of Bell. The guy doesn't have it. I don't have a lot of faith in Meredith and Wang isn't ready.I think the jury is still out on Bell. Most of his problems last season were mental versus physical. The mental mistakes can be corrected. He's still very new to football. He COULD still become a decent player.

[madness]

Here I thought the FO that couldn't sign their first draft pick until July botched the Peters situation.

[Bill Cody]

the team can't botch a retirement because a retirement is up to the player, not the team. Butler screwed us by retiring so young, but I can't really fault the team because it wasn't up to them.

And yes, if that happens, then NE failed to resolve the situation.

Getting rid of a player who is a problem/overpaid/over the hill etc is only half of the solution. The other half is finding a viable replacement. Over the years, the Bills have consistently failed at the second half.

You're missing the point. The Bills cannot control a players greed or work ethic any more than they can control a players decision to retire. That's on THEM.

Just like the Patriots offered Mankins a contract that makes him one of the top 5 guards in football (like we did with the person no longer to be named) but if Mankins wants to be a ***** and hold out to be THE top paid guard in the league the Pats are under no obligation from anyone, fans included, to roll over and cave in. And that is the case even if they don't have another top 5, in his prime guard to take his place. If the Pats move Mankins because they feel no reasonable deal can be made, it's up to them to find a suitable replacement, that's true of us also. But getting the replacement is a separate issue from having to cut bait with a player on your team that refuses to play ball.

This really isn't that complicated. I think you DO get this but you just want to stubbornly blame the Bills for everything, even things that are clearly not their fault. Lots of things are their fault, this isn't one of them. Feel free to get the last word, I know you will.:puh:

[OpIv37]

You're missing the point. The Bills cannot control a players greed or work ethic any more than they can control a players decision to retire. That's on THEM.

Just like the Patriots offered Mankins a contract that makes him one of the top 5 guards in football (like we did with the person no longer to be named) but if Mankins wants to be a ***** and hold out to be THE top paid guard in the league the Pats are under no obligation from anyone, fans included, to roll over and cave in. And that is the case even if they don't have another top 5, in his prime guard to take his place. If the Pats move Mankins because they feel no reasonable deal can be made, it's up to them to find a suitable replacement, that's true of us also. But getting the replacement is a separate issue from having to cut bait with a player on your team that refuses to play ball.

This really isn't that complicated. I think you DO get this but you just want to stubbornly blame the Bills for everything, even things that are clearly not their fault. Lots of things are their fault, this isn't one of them. Feel free to get the last word, I know you will.:puh:

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In the case of Josh Reed and TO, the FO simply chose not to offer them contracts. If that's the case, the FO damn well better have someone equal or better in mind, but just like the Peters case, they didn't.

You could argue that the org is under no obligation to cave to a player, and there is some merit to that argument. But the org is under some obligation to win, so they damn well better have a plan B. And when a FULL off-season passes and a replacement STILL isn't found, that's simply inexcusable.

Simply put, sometimes players become crybabies and have to be let go. But that doesn't excuse the organization from their obligation to win.

[Goobylal]

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In the case of Josh Reed and TO, the FO simply chose not to offer them contracts. If that's the case, the FO damn well better have someone equal or better in mind, but just like the Peters case, they didn't.

You could argue that the org is under no obligation to cave to a player, and there is some merit to that argument. But the org is under some obligation to win, so they damn well better have a plan B. And when a FULL off-season passes and a replacement STILL isn't found, that's simply inexcusable.

Simply put, sometimes players become crybabies and have to be let go. But that doesn't excuse the organization from their obligation to win.
Again, how do you know that Meredith, Bell, or Wang isn't the answer at LT? Or that Hardy, Johnson, or Easley aren't the answers at WR.

[Typ0]

I agree with the premise of the thread and yet again see a boat load of blind homers. The problem with the organization is cultural and it starts at the top. What we have is players who are proud to be playing in the NFL and collecting a paycheck but they don't really believe in the Buffalo Bills. Wilson is an old school philosophy business person not adjusting to what is done today and everybody in the organization knows it. As much as we gripe about players getting big bucks and not performing the reality they need to be catered to and around OBD they aren't...and every time a player is mistreated (ex. cutting someone through the media) is takes another chuck out of player confidence. Things have degraded to the point where, just like many fans, the players are just waiting for RW to kick off to see what happens. For all of you people who want to defend RW over and over have you ever worked under bad management? What was morale like?

[Bill Cody]

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In the case of Josh Reed and TO, the FO simply chose not to offer them contracts. If that's the case, the FO damn well better have someone equal or better in mind, but just like the Peters case, they didn't.

You could argue that the org is under no obligation to cave to a player, and there is some merit to that argument. But the org is under some obligation to win, so they damn well better have a plan B. And when a FULL off-season passes and a replacement STILL isn't found, that's simply inexcusable.

Simply put, sometimes players become crybabies and have to be let go. But that doesn't excuse the organization from their obligation to win.

TO is still unsigned. Reed just got signed. Does that give you an indication about how the rest of the league views those players? I won't miss either player and neither did much for the team last year. It's time to find out what we've got with players like Hardy and Johnson, is it not?

I'm not arguing that the organization needs to do better. I have some hopes we've gotten a start in the right direction this year. But I don't think even the biggest blind homer though we will going to fill our swiss cheese roster in one offseason. It remains to be seen if we have a significant # of "hits" from the draft. But again that's a separate issue from players that simply have to go. Ok?

[Goobylal]

I agree with the premise of the thread and yet again see a boat load of blind homers. The problem with the organization is cultural and it starts at the top. What we have is players who are proud to be playing in the NFL and collecting a paycheck but they don't really believe in the Buffalo Bills. Wilson is an old school philosophy business person not adjusting to what is done today and everybody in the organization knows it. As much as we gripe about players getting big bucks and not performing the reality they need to be catered to and around OBD they aren't...and every time a player is mistreated (ex. cutting someone through the media) is takes another chuck out of player confidence. Things have degraded to the point where, just like many fans, the players are just waiting for RW to kick off to see what happens. For all of you people who want to defend RW over and over have you ever worked under bad management? What was morale like?
Please! I don't recall a SINGLE Bills player speaking-out about how unfairly Peters was being treated 2 off-seasons ago. That spoke volumes to me. And in Lynch's case, Fred Jackson said he needed to be in camp.

The problem is that NONE of the players care if they're cut, because Buffalo isn't where athletes want to be. That has nothing to do with Ralph whatsoever. The only leverage the Bills have is fining players.

[Typ0]

It would have been very politically incorrect for a player to say anything about the Peters situation at the time....and you admit players don't want to play for the Bills.



Please! I don't recall a SINGLE Bills player speaking-out about how unfairly Peters was being treated 2 off-seasons ago. That spoke volumes to me. And in Lynch's case, Fred Jackson said he needed to be in camp.

The problem is that NONE of the players care if they're cut, because Buffalo isn't where athletes want to be. That has nothing to do with Ralph whatsoever. The only leverage the Bills have is fining players.

[Goobylal]

It would have been very politically incorrect for a player to say anything about the Peters situation at the time....and you admit players don't want to play for the Bills.
I said the palyers don't want to play in Buffalo. There's a big difference.

As for Peters, so if the players said nothing, how do you know they blamed the Bills for that situation? And when was the last time the Bills cut someone through the media?

[Typ0]

I said the palyers don't want to play in Buffalo. There's a big difference.

As for Peters, so if the players said nothing, how do you know they blamed the Bills for that situation? And when was the last time the Bills cut someone through the media?


I'm not saying the players are sitting around blaming the Bills. I'm saying there has been many events that have decimated the culture at OBD and RW is at the heart of those events. The players are part of the culture they aren't even able to look at it objectively. As far as they are concerned everything might be just fine from their perspective. But the culture is a mess and that's why the team is a perrennial loser.

[Goobylal]

I'm not saying the players are sitting around blaming the Bills. I'm saying there has been many events that have decimated the culture at OBD and RW is at the heart of those events. The players are part of the culture they aren't even able to look at it objectively. As far as they are concerned everything might be just fine from their perspective. But the culture is a mess and that's why the team is a perrennial loser.
How do you figure that Ralph is "at the heart" of those events? Despite reports to the contrary, Ralph is very hands-off when it comes to running the Bills. He hires a GM, who hires the coaches and training staff. The only time he gets involved is when his GM's aren't getting the job done, a la Butler in 2000 and TD in 2005, and needs to fire them. He didn't tell TD to cut Thurman via the media. On the contrary, if you hear players talk, they are very deferential towards Ralph.

And a new owner won't solve anything. He/she may be able to throw more money at the team, at least initially, but like Golisano and the Sabres, the economics will force a more realistic approach. And a new owner can't change the depressed economy, small market, and yes, the weather, which are all factors that work against the (perception of the) Bills. Also with the money a new owner will have to spend on the team, you can be sure prices will rise significantly, whereas Ralph has always kept prices close or at the bottom of the league. In short, be careful what you wish for.

[PromoTheRobot]

I think it's very easy to villify Lynch but there is a very troublesome aspect to the whole situation.

First off, it's fairly obvious that his teammates like him. The Bills are notorious for handling players poorly. Like or hate Peter's nobody can argue that the front office botched the entire handling of the situation.

Fred Jackson is a big Lycnh supporter and you would think he'd be happy not to have him around but it's the total opposite.

I believe that the players in general have little or no respect for the owner and the organization. Lynch essentially getting a free pass from his teammates is pretty telling. The fact that he pretty much put Chris Brown in his place at the PC tells me he's not too worried about retribution either.

The fact that among his teammates he looks like the victim is disturbing.

I know you hate this team but just because you make up some fantasy scenario it doesn't make it real. Nobody on the Bills is sticking up for Least Mode.

This is one thing I can always count on here at Bills Haters Zone.com...the BIZARRO Bills site.

PTR

[feldspar]

I think it's very easy to villify Lynch but there is a very troublesome aspect to the whole situation.

First off, it's fairly obvious that his teammates like him. The Bills are notorious for handling players poorly. Like or hate Peter's nobody can argue that the front office botched the entire handling of the situation.

Fred Jackson is a big Lycnh supporter and you would think he'd be happy not to have him around but it's the total opposite.

I believe that the players in general have little or no respect for the owner and the organization. Lynch essentially getting a free pass from his teammates is pretty telling. The fact that he pretty much put Chris Brown in his place at the PC tells me he's not too worried about retribution either.

The fact that among his teammates he looks like the victim is disturbing.

You just have no idea what you are talking about.

You make this stuff up.

How do you feel that everyone should be acting?" Even if Lynch was the worst person in the world, his teammates should still back him. You don't throw your teammates under the bus, and you want the best value for a trade you can get. Or, at what point and for what reason do you tear a player that is still on your team a new one? Do you honestly think that there is a reason to hate the kid? If so, you are part of the problem IMO. Explain your hatred for a person you've never met, if you will.

WTF is the problem? You want Lynch to be Lynched? Why...exactly why?

[Typ0]

Keep telling yourself that.


How do you figure that Ralph is "at the heart" of those events? Despite reports to the contrary, Ralph is very hands-off when it comes to running the Bills. He hires a GM, who hires the coaches and training staff. The only time he gets involved is when his GM's aren't getting the job done, a la Butler in 2000 and TD in 2005, and needs to fire them. He didn't tell TD to cut Thurman via the media. On the contrary, if you hear players talk, they are very deferential towards Ralph.

And a new owner won't solve anything. He/she may be able to throw more money at the team, at least initially, but like Golisano and the Sabres, the economics will force a more realistic approach. And a new owner can't change the depressed economy, small market, and yes, the weather, which are all factors that work against the (perception of the) Bills. Also with the money a new owner will have to spend on the team, you can be sure prices will rise significantly, whereas Ralph has always kept prices close or at the bottom of the league. In short, be careful what you wish for.

[Goobylal]

Keep telling yourself that.
Likewise. Keep telling yourself whatever it is that you and others keep telling yourselves that continually makes Ralph out to be the bad guy. If not for Ralph, the Bills would have left Buffalo decades ago. It's been a decaying city for the past 30-40 years, yet he's kept the team there despite having multiple chances to move.

[Jan Reimers]

Almost every team faces this kind of situation on occasion. Look at Haynesworth and the Redskins, for instance. Look at Cutler last preseason. Guys hold out, guys make ridiculous demands, guys are unhappy with their role and want to be traded, etc., etc.

It's a reflection on the individual player, not the team. I don't see the Bills as having any more of these situations than any other team.

Not everything that happens with us is an indictment of what a terrible organization we are.

[Griff]

Classic HH

[Typ0]

Not everything that happens with us is an indictment of what a terrible organization we are.


Seriously? Can you come up with a reasonable ratio of things that are positive to indicate we are a great organization then? The things that indicate we are terrible keep piling up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess you can pick each isolated incident of the hundreds and just proclaim "it's just one incident". Yeah, one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another one after another after another after another after another after another
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[Novacane]

Wait till he's gone. The Bills players will be singing a differant tune. Players rarely bash a teamate publicly.

[Novacane]

I think Ralph Wilson is a bad owner and we won't win till he's gone. Still, I don't see how anyone can blame Lynch being a jerk off on him. Every team has jerks.


Of course if Ralph had not made the ******ed move of hiring his buddy Marv as GM we might not have this jerk on our team so I guess it can go right back to Ralph.

[better days]

Wait till he's gone. The Bills players will be singing a differant tune. Players rarely bash a teamate publicly.

Haynsworth has been bashed by both players on his team & around the league recently.

[Dr. Lecter]

I think it's very easy to villify Lynch but there is a very troublesome aspect to the whole situation.

First off, it's fairly obvious that his teammates like him. The Bills are notorious for handling players poorly. Like or hate Peter's nobody can argue that the front office botched the entire handling of the situation.

Fred Jackson is a big Lycnh supporter and you would think he'd be happy not to have him around but it's the total opposite.

I believe that the players in general have little or no respect for the owner and the organization. Lynch essentially getting a free pass from his teammates is pretty telling. The fact that he pretty much put Chris Brown in his place at the PC tells me he's not too worried about retribution either.

The fact that among his teammates he looks like the victim is disturbing.

First off, somebody can argue they did not botch the Peters situation. Just because you did not like it, does not mean that one can't disagree with you or make a case for the other side.

As for the rest, it is crap and you know it. How often do teammates come out after one of their own guys? Haynesworth is the exception. And even if he is popular amongst his teammates, so what?

Lynch is a guy that is one screw-up away from being gone for a year. He is a guy who showed up last year out of shape and was soundly outplayed by Fred Jackson. His attitude this year has been deplorable. His recent press conference was an embarrassment.

This team has made a bunch of mistakes. Their treatment of Lynch is not one of them.

Your desire to have love affairs with guys like Peters, Lynch and Edwards is confusing. It makes no sense.

[Dr. Lecter]

Haynsworth has been bashed by both players on his team & around the league recently.
Hence the use of the word "rarely".

[Jan Reimers]

Typo, I didn't say we were a great organization. We're not. I was simply making a point about the Lynch situation.

The rest of your post is garbage and should be deleted.

[HHURRICANE]

First off, somebody can argue they did not botch the Peters situation. Just because you did not like it, does not mean that one can't disagree with you or make a case for the other side.

As for the rest, it is crap and you know it. How often do teammates come out after one of their own guys? Haynesworth is the exception. And even if he is popular amongst his teammates, so what?

Lynch is a guy that is one screw-up away from being gone for a year. He is a guy who showed up last year out of shape and was soundly outplayed by Fred Jackson. His attitude this year has been deplorable. His recent press conference was an embarrassment.

This team has made a bunch of mistakes. Their treatment of Lynch is not one of them.

Your desire to have love affairs with guys like Peters, Lynch and Edwards is confusing. It makes no sense.

This organization drafted him with the 11th pick, he's been a douche to the organization, and they have done nothing to reprimand him for it, and he seems to have the full support of his teammates.

I guess we agree.

[Dr. Lecter]

This organization drafted him with the 11th pick, he's been a douche to the organization, and they have done nothing to reprimand him for it, and he seems to have the full support of his teammates.

I guess we agree.


No, we don't.

Where are you getting the idea that he has the full support of his teammates? Because Jackson has not bashed him? That is quite a stretch and you know it. What do you suggest the organization do? Suspend him for not going to voluntary OTA's?

What should have they done?

[Typ0]

The point you made was that we can't look at the Lynch situation and draw the conclusion that the organization has problems. Why not? I agree, in itself it is not indicitave of organizational issues but it is a piece of the bigger pie that clearly points to vomit being spewed out at OBD!


Typo, I didn't say we were a great organization. We're not. I was simply making a point about the Lynch situation.

The rest of your post is garbage and should be deleted.

[OpIv37]

Again, how do you know that Meredith, Bell, or Wang isn't the answer at LT? Or that Hardy, Johnson, or Easley aren't the answers at WR.

I don't know.

What I do know is that both Meredith and Bell had chances last year, and neither impressed.

What I do know is that while pretty much everyone agreed that Wang was a good pick-up, pretty much everyone also agreed that he's a project who needs time to develop.

What I do know is that Hardy and Johnson couldn't get their asses for the last two years, despite some huge questions at WR. What I do know is that we let Reed and TO walk without even offering them a deal, and I simply don't see how the guys backing up two guys we simply cast aside could be better.

None of this proves that those guys aren't the answer- no one can see the future. But all of this means that the chances of any of these guys being the answer are very, very slim. So, I'm going to play the odds on this one.

Hell, that's all I ever do: predict the most likely outcome. People trash me for it because they don't like hearing that the most likely outcome is bad for the Bills. But that's why I'm right more often than not and that's why I don't understand why so many people argue with me on this stuff.

[OpIv37]

TO is still unsigned. Reed just got signed. Does that give you an indication about how the rest of the league views those players? I won't miss either player and neither did much for the team last year. It's time to find out what we've got with players like Hardy and Johnson, is it not?

I'm not arguing that the organization needs to do better. I have some hopes we've gotten a start in the right direction this year. But I don't think even the biggest blind homer though we will going to fill our swiss cheese roster in one offseason. It remains to be seen if we have a significant # of "hits" from the draft. But again that's a separate issue from players that simply have to go. Ok?

So, to reiterate: TO and Reed were allowed to walk without even being offered a contract from the Bills, and both had/are having trouble finding a new team. But, you're OK testing out the guys who were ON THE BENCH behind them last year? Guys who couldn't even crack the field over two castoffs that no one wanted? That makes zero sense.

I knew we weren't going to fill all the holes in the roster this off-season, but going into the off-season, our biggest holes were QB, NT, LT, WR and OLB. NONE of those positions were sufficiently addressed this off-season. Expecting all of them to be filled would have been ridiculous, but filling NONE of them is absurd.

[Historian]

I agree with the premise of the thread and yet again see a boat load of blind homers. The problem with the organization is cultural and it starts at the top.

As someone who has followed this organization pretty closely for 43 years, I tend to agree with Typo.

Lynch aside, look at the way they've handled some of these situations in the past.

Joe Ferguson gets traded to the Lions in favor of FerraDuefison.

Jamie Mueller gets injured and has to sue the organization to get a fair injury settlement.

Smerlas gets told by Levy he's a 49er after 11 years of dedicated service.

The Bills would not pay to send Cribbs to a Pro Bowl.

Washed up McDole plays another eight years in Washington.

Thurman signs with the fish, just to stick it to them.

The number of players they would not negotiate in good faith is so astronomical, you could dedicate a website to that alone.

I know there are some here who will point to this player and that circumstance, and I will grant you that.

However, this is a pattern of behavior with this organization, and the results show. on. the. field. I'm sorry, but it's true.

World class organizations do not treat their best employees like this. They don't treat any of their employees like this.

There is serious dysfunction at 1BD, and whether you like Peters, Lynch, or whomever, I'm sorry, it shows....and these guys talk. They all play in the same golf tourneys, attend the same charitable events, etc...

Why do you think big name coaches avoided this team like the plague?

Its sad.

[Typ0]

But each of those guys and many more not mentioned are only single incidents!


As someone who has followed this organization pretty closely for 43 years, I tend to agree with Typo.

Lynch aside, look at the way they've handled some of these situations in the past.

Joe Ferguson gets traded to the Lions in favor of FerraDuefison.

Jamie Mueller gets injured and has to sue the organization to get a fair injury settlement.

Smerlas gets told by Levy he's a 49er after 11 years of dedicated service.

The Bills would not pay to send Cribbs to a Pro Bowl.

Washed up McDole plays another eight years in Washington.

Thurman signs with the fish, just to stick it to them.

The number of players they would not negotiate in good faith is so astronomical, you could dedicate a website to that alone.

I know there are some here who will point to this player and that circumstance, and I will grant you that.

However, this is a pattern of behavior with this organization, and the results show. on. the. field. I'm sorry, but it's true.

World class organizations do not treat their best employees like this. They don't treat any of their employees like this.

There is serious dysfunction at 1BD, and whether you like Peters, Lynch, or whomever, I'm sorry, it shows....and these guys talk. They all play in the same golf tourneys, attend the same charitable events, etc...

Why do you think big name coaches avoided this team like the plague?

Its sad.

[Bill Cody]

So, to reiterate: TO and Reed were allowed to walk without even being offered a contract from the Bills, and both had/are having trouble finding a new team. But, you're OK testing out the guys who were ON THE BENCH behind them last year? Guys who couldn't even crack the field over two castoffs that no one wanted? That makes zero sense.

I'm very ok with it. We were 30th in the league in offense with those guys. We invested a 2nd round pick in Hardy. Don't you think he should get a chance to show what he's got? If we're rebuilding let's rebuild, not go with has beens and never wases.


I knew we weren't going to fill all the holes in the roster this off-season, but going into the off-season, our biggest holes were QB, NT, LT, WR and OLB. NONE of those positions were sufficiently addressed this off-season. Expecting all of them to be filled would have been ridiculous, but filling NONE of them is absurd.

So drafting a NT in the 2nd round doesn't count? I think we would have checked off more of your list if we were not changing defenses but in a way that allowed us to move Maybin to a more natural OLB position. It's always easy to criticize and the Bills are an easy target. We need a QB and a LT, very true. Because we don't we will lose this year. But the moves that were made may still have been largely correct for the long haul. We will see won't we?

[Typ0]

I think it's funny that fans think the guys don't have a chance if they don't crack the starting lineup. They have a chance to get in the lineup in front of the coaches. If they don't get their chance it's because they can't even beat out other guys on the roster. The draft is a crap shoot you don't just plug your draft picks in to see how they can do. There just isn't enough time or opportunities for that. They will field the guys they think give us the best chance to win. If Hardy isn't one of those guys it's not because he's not getting a chance it's because he's not getting it done off the field and in practice.



I'm very ok with it. We were 30th in the league in offense with those guys. We invested a 2nd round pick in Hardy. Don't you think he should get a chance to show what he's got? If we're rebuilding let's rebuild, not go with has beens and never wases.



So drafting a NT in the 2nd round doesn't count? I think we would have checked off more of your list if we were not changing defenses but in a way that allowed us to move Maybin to a more natural OLB position. It's always easy to criticize and the Bills are an easy target. We need a QB and a LT, very true. Because we don't we will lose this year. But the moves that were made may still have been largely correct for the long haul. We will see won't we?

[Bill Cody]

I think it's funny that fans think the guys don't have a chance if they don't crack the starting lineup. They have a chance to get in the lineup in front of the coaches. If they don't get their chance it's because they can't even beat out other guys on the roster. The draft is a crap shoot you don't just plug your draft picks in to see how they can do. There just isn't enough time or opportunities for that. They will field the guys they think give us the best chance to win. If Hardy isn't one of those guys it's not because he's not getting a chance it's because he's not getting it done off the field and in practice.

The Bills were paying TO a lot of money last year so he was going to start. But the fact that we chose not to resign TO or Reed should tell you something about what we thought of them and the guys that are still here.

[Typ0]

The Bills were paying TO a lot of money last year so he was going to start. But the fact that we chose not to resign TO or Reed should tell you something about what we thought of them and the guys that are still here.


What are you talking about?

[billz83]

The bills have no loyalty to their players..and when they get rid of GOOD PLAYERS they NEVER replace them with players that are just as good or better..they create a MASSIVE hole in that position and they CHOOSE NOT to fix it..they have done this with the Oline, linebackers, DT, Wrz, etc..and they NEVER did fix the QB position..and this has been a problem for the LONGEST..the clowns running the show here are 100% on CRACK.

[Typ0]

We aren't talking about loyalty we are talking about professionalism.


The bills have no loyalty to their players..and when they get rid of GOOD PLAYERS they NEVER replace them with players that are just as good or better..they create a MASSIVE hole in that position and they CHOOSE NOT to fix it..they have done this with the Oline, linebackers, DT, Wrz, etc..and they NEVER did fix the QB position..and this has been a problem for the LONGEST..the clowns running the show here are 100% on CRACK.

[Bill Cody]

What are you talking about?

Why do you think we didn't resign those guys? Because we thought Hardy, Johnson and gang CAN'T play? I'm pretty sure our new staff didn't sign a suicide pact.

[Typ0]

Why do you think we didn't resign those guys? Because we thought Hardy, Johnson and gang CAN'T play? I'm pretty sure our new staff didn't sign a suicide pact.


We didn't sign those guys because they didn't feel they fit in for whatever reasons...and there will be opportunities to pick more guys up. I hear what you are saying but not signing one guy is not neccarily a rubber stamp for another guy starting. We don't know what's in their heads.

[Jan Reimers]

Has my computer malfunctioned or is Typo's post #57 in this thread about 200 lines of repetitive Spam?

[Bill Cody]

We didn't sign those guys because they didn't feel they fit in for whatever reasons...and there will be opportunities to pick more guys up. I hear what you are saying but not signing one guy is not neccarily a rubber stamp for another guy starting. We don't know what's in their heads.

Unless you think we're going to get a starter from a cut, which is unlikely IMO, we pretty much do know what's in their heads or at least what their options are. And we know why TO and Reed "didn't fit", neither is very good. This isn't brain surgery.

[OpIv37]

The Bills were paying TO a lot of money last year so he was going to start. But the fact that we chose not to resign TO or Reed should tell you something about what we thought of them and the guys that are still here.

and what have you seen from this organization in the past to make you think this was the right move? I already provided you plenty of examples of letting guys walk with no Plan B. This looks like more of the same. You can't replace starters with benchwarmers and late round draft picks. We try every year and fail every year.

[Typ0]

Has my computer malfunctioned or is Typo's post #57 in this thread about 200 lines of repetitive Spam?


Exactly what OBD has been pushing out at us for years...repetitive spam. At least you get the analogy.

[Bill Cody]

and what have you seen from this organization in the past to make you think this was the right move? I already provided you plenty of examples of letting guys walk with no Plan B. This looks like more of the same. You can't replace starters with benchwarmers and late round draft picks. We try every year and fail every year.

Sometimes I swear to God you make posts like this just out of boredom and no offense but you sound like a whiner. TO caught 5 TD's last year and 55 balls. He's had a great career but he's done or close to done. The proof of that is he is still unsigned. Can Hardy give us 55 catches and 5 TD's? I for one am game to find out. Nix is in his first year as GM. He can't be blamed for the past, you know that.

And every team in the NFL, every last one, has guys that are drafted late and start and/or don't start right away and later do. Where would NE be without 6th round pick Tom Brady? Where would Dallas be without undrafted Tony Romo and 7th rounder Jay Ratliff? You can't have 45 1st round picks on the team, you know that right?

[X-Era]

How did they botch it?

#1) They signed him to a long term contract in 2006 which he signed with no complaint.
#2) In 2008 after playing only 2 years of his deal, he held out of OTAs, minicamp and training camp without even speaking to anyone about a contract demand.
#3)The Bills offered him a contract that would've made him a top 5 paid LT in the NFL and he declined wanting to be the highest paid even though he clearly isn't even the best LT in the division.

The Bills didn't botch anything when it came to Peters.

The botch came after he left and we failed to replace him with anything solid.

I guess we just pocketed that cash... why re-invest it in the team.

[OpIv37]

Sometimes I swear to God you make posts like this just out of boredom and no offense but you sound like a whiner. TO caught 5 TD's last year and 55 balls. He's had a great career but he's done or close to done. The proof of that is he is still unsigned. Can Hardy give us 55 catches and 5 TD's? I for one am game to find out. Nix is in his first year as GM. He can't be blamed for the past, you know that.

And every team in the NFL, every last one, has guys that are drafted late and start and/or don't start right away and later do. Where would NE be without 6th round pick Tom Brady? Where would Dallas be without undrafted Tony Romo and 7th rounder Jay Ratliff? You can't have 45 1st round picks on the team, you know that right?

That's 5 more TD's and 55 more balls than Hardy or Johnson. If they're so friggin good, what were they doing ON THE BENCH BEHIND TO? You're trying to tell me that Josh Reed and TO weren't good enough, which is understandable, but don't ****ing try to tell me that their back-ups will be better. That's just asinine. It's a strategy that has been proven to fail. Get rid of them, but bring in someone better.

And where did I say ANYTHING about 45 first round picks? First, the guys you mentioned are the exception to the rule. Go look up what happened to the other 30 picks in the 6th and 7th round of those drafts.

Second, there are a lot of rounds between the first round and the 6th round. If you need a guy to start or contribute immediately, waiting until the 6th round is a bad ****ing idea.

What you are suggesting is EXACTLY how the Bills have been operating for the last 5-6 years. And you've seen the results. Yet, you accuse me of being a whiner and posting things out of boredom. Like it or not, there is a lot of truth to what I say. And you're getting what you wished for as far as Hardy, so don't come on here whining when it's late October and the season's already over.

[Bill Cody]

That's 5 more TD's and 55 more balls than Hardy or Johnson. If they're so friggin good, what were they doing ON THE BENCH BEHIND TO? You're trying to tell me that Josh Reed and TO weren't good enough, which is understandable, but don't ****ing try to tell me that their back-ups will be better. That's just asinine. It's a strategy that has been proven to fail. Get rid of them, but bring in someone better.

And where did I say ANYTHING about 45 first round picks? First, the guys you mentioned are the exception to the rule. Go look up what happened to the other 30 picks in the 6th and 7th round of those drafts.

Second, there are a lot of rounds between the first round and the 6th round. If you need a guy to start or contribute immediately, waiting until the 6th round is a bad ****ing idea.

What you are suggesting is EXACTLY how the Bills have been operating for the last 5-6 years. And you've seen the results. Yet, you accuse me of being a whiner and posting things out of boredom. Like it or not, there is a lot of truth to what I say. And you're getting what you wished for as far as Hardy, so don't come on here whining when it's late October and the season's already over.

All draft picks are unknowns until they play. TO was getting big bucks and he's a future hall of famer. So he's going to sit and watch a draft pick that's never played? You make no sense. It has to end sometime for every player. That time may have arrived for TO. We have no QB. If there was ever a time to play unknown quantities at WR this is it. They may be worse this year than TO. I say so what? We were 30th with TO. It takes time on the field for WR's to develop. If these guys can't cut it we will find that out. The pickings for FA WR's were slim and sure as hell we weren't going to take a WR in the first 3 picks this year. We used a 4th on another project WR, which is sensible IMO. If we had picked one earlier you'd be whining we didn't address something else. No way the Bills can win with you.

[Mad Max]

This organization reflects poorly on this organization.

Fixed.

[Typ0]

This organization reflects poorly on this organization.

Fixed.


That's funny. Exactly what I was thinking!

[OpIv37]

All draft picks are unknowns until they play. TO was getting big bucks and he's a future hall of famer. So he's going to sit and watch a draft pick that's never played? You make no sense. It has to end sometime for every player. That time may have arrived for TO. We have no QB. If there was ever a time to play unknown quantities at WR this is it. They may be worse this year than TO. I say so what? We were 30th with TO. It takes time on the field for WR's to develop. If these guys can't cut it we will find that out. The pickings for FA WR's were slim and sure as hell we weren't going to take a WR in the first 3 picks this year. We used a 4th on another project WR, which is sensible IMO. If we had picked one earlier you'd be whining we didn't address something else. No way the Bills can win with you.
Dont ****ing put words in my mouth. If we went WR early, at least then we would have made progress filling this team's major holes. Instead, all we have are project WR's. Not. Good. Enough.

And your contention is that TO played because of his name/salary even if Hardy looked better in practice? ****ing ridiculous.

[Jan Reimers]

Many of you are missing the fun of being a fan. What possible enjoyment do you get from continual *****ing and whining? There are new coaches, new front office people, new schemes and new players.

Why not take a positive attitude toward the changes, rather than living in - and *****ing about - the past?

The Bills have many faults, and will continue to have them. So what? If you're a fan, try to find some positives and enjoy them. This is supposed to be fun!

[BertSquirtgum]

This message is hidden because Typ0 is on your ignore list (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/profile.php?do=editlist).

[Bill Cody]

Dont ****ing put words in my mouth. If we went WR early, at least then we would have made progress filling this team's major holes. Instead, all we have are project WR's. Not. Good. Enough.

And your contention is that TO played because of his name/salary even if Hardy looked better in practice? ****ing ridiculous.

Honestly your opinion is just that- an opinion. Do I value Buddy Nix's opinion over yours? Ummmm.....yeah.

And now you're putting words in my mouth. TO is a vet and a future hall of famer. He's better than Hardy right now and yes his salary is a factor in his playing time, please don't be naive. That's the truth with pretty much every vet vs inexperienced player and it's a decision every team makes on dozens of players every single year- does the potential of the young guy outweigh the production of the vet? The Bills made their call on TO. You disagree? Good for you! Jan is right. What enjoyment do you get from the team? You're a constant downer. I'm done here.

[OpIv37]

Honestly your opinion is just that- an opinion. Do I value Buddy Nix's opinion over yours? Ummmm.....yeah.

And now you're putting words in my mouth. TO is a vet and a future hall of famer. He's better than Hardy right now and yes his salary is a factor in his playing time, please don't be naive. That's the truth with pretty much every vet vs inexperienced player and it's a decision every team makes on dozens of players every single year- does the potential of the young guy outweigh the production of the vet? The Bills made their call on TO. You disagree? Good for you! Jan is right. What enjoyment do you get from the team? You're a constant downer. I'm done here.
I'm a constant downer? This TEAM is a constant downer. All I do is discuss the reality of it. I can't help it if reality bothers you.

And I don't get any enjoyment out of this team anymore because there is no enjoyment in losing. But, I'm a fan so I stand by the team no matter how bad it gets. I don't need delusions and false hopes to get through the bad times.

And if you don't trust my opinion that's fine, but your faith in Nix is based solely on the fact that he works for the Bills. The reality is that he's doing a lot of the same bull**** that this team has pulled in the past, and fans have plenty of reasons to be skeptical.

[YardRat]

As someone who has followed this organization pretty closely for 43 years, I tend to agree with Typo.

Lynch aside, look at the way they've handled some of these situations in the past.

Joe Ferguson gets traded to the Lions in favor of FerraDuefison.

Jamie Mueller gets injured and has to sue the organization to get a fair injury settlement.

Smerlas gets told by Levy he's a 49er after 11 years of dedicated service.

The Bills would not pay to send Cribbs to a Pro Bowl.

Washed up McDole plays another eight years in Washington.

Thurman signs with the fish, just to stick it to them.

The number of players they would not negotiate in good faith is so astronomical, you could dedicate a website to that alone.

I know there are some here who will point to this player and that circumstance, and I will grant you that.

However, this is a pattern of behavior with this organization, and the results show. on. the. field. I'm sorry, but it's true.

World class organizations do not treat their best employees like this. They don't treat any of their employees like this.

There is serious dysfunction at 1BD, and whether you like Peters, Lynch, or whomever, I'm sorry, it shows....and these guys talk. They all play in the same golf tourneys, attend the same charitable events, etc...

Why do you think big name coaches avoided this team like the plague?

Its sad.

We're so close to the situation, of course we're going to see our own team's flaws or errors more than somebody else's, but realistically speaking every team in the league can point to their history and come up with just as many examples.

First-I really do believe the team screwed Peters, regardless of how skilled of a player anybody perceives him to be today. In a league where rising up the ranks from nothing is rare and players mostly get their payday before they've even performed, Jason is an example of a player that earned every penny and deserved to be compensated.

That being said, and second...

It's not like 'Hang yer head Fergie' was a perennial Pro Bowler, and he was getting up their in years and loss of skills.

I don't remember the specifics behind Mueller's case, but other teams have been sued over injury settlements.

Smerlas was long in the tooth also, and it was time for him to go (I would have loved to have a player of his caliber, in his prime, on the Super Bowl teams though)

I don't remember the Cribbs deal either.

Washed up James Lofton, after being outright cut and not traded, helps the Bills win a few conference championships.

If you look hard enough to any team, you'll be able to dredge up enough instances to detect a pattern for them if you wanted to also.

[Goobylal]

First-I really do believe the team screwed Peters, regardless of how skilled of a player anybody perceives him to be today. In a league where rising up the ranks from nothing is rare and players mostly get their payday before they've even performed, Jason is an example of a player that earned every penny and deserved to be compensated.
I'm sure you know the Bills gave Peters a contract averaging $3M/year just prior to his 3rd season, when he was the starting RT, right? And in that contract, there was a $1M escalator for starting at LT. So he was making $4M/year for a year and a half, before he decided he needed to be the highest paid LT in the NFL. The Bills didn't screw him. And he's not worth close to what he's making.

[YardRat]

I'm sure you know the Bills gave Peters a contract averaging $3M/year just prior to his 3rd season, when he was the starting RT, right? And in that contract, there was a $1M escalator for starting at LT. So he was making $4M/year for a year and a half, before he decided he needed to be the highest paid LT in the NFL. The Bills didn't screw him. And he's not worth close to what he's making.

That's my point. He was underpaid for a LT, but he played for a year and a half and proved he could play the position before asking for an appropriate raise. I honestly don't remember him looking to be the highest paid, just one of the top.

[YardRat]

Dont ****ing put words in my mouth. If we went WR early, at least then we would have made progress filling this team's major holes. Instead, all we have are project WR's. Not. Good. Enough.

And your contention is that TO played because of his name/salary even if Hardy looked better in practice? ****ing ridiculous.

I remember when we started a couple of young guys at WR, one a fourth-rounder that worked into the line-up almost immediately, named Burkett and Reed...One of those guys worked out pretty good.

I also remember starting a C that was a cast-off from a different league that went undrafted by the NFL named Hull...I think he turned out pretty decent also.

The only difference between them and the last 10 years was we had an honest-to-god talent evaluator in the front office back then. Fortunately, we have one of those guys again, if his track record means anything.

[Goobylal]

That's my point. He was underpaid for a LT, but he played for a year and a half and proved he could play the position before asking for an appropriate raise. I honestly don't remember him looking to be the highest paid, just one of the top.
He wasn't underpaid for a year and a half. Heck he wasn't underpaid at all. The Bills redid his deal after 2 years in the league. And he wanted another new, huge (yes, he wanted to be the highest-paid LT in the league) after another 2 years. That sets a bad precedent. And he's not worth near that amount. Ask any Philly fan.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

Many of you are missing the fun of being a fan. What possible enjoyment do you get from continual *****ing and whining? There are new coaches, new front office people, new schemes and new players.

Why not take a positive attitude toward the changes, rather than living in - and *****ing about - the past?

The Bills have many faults, and will continue to have them. So what? If you're a fan, try to find some positives and enjoy them. This is supposed to be fun!
That's the folly with being a "fan." I'm not a "fan." A "fan" is, in better terms, a "lemming." And not the real ones-- I mean the stereotypical ones that follow each other off cliffs. Fans support losers. I want a winner. This team hasn't made any progress toward winning. The owner is the same. The top college scout is the same, and making the same wrong decisions. As of now, the starting quarterback is the same. The left tackle position-- I've gone there enough, no need to hash over it again. The kicker and punter, two of the few successful members of the team, aren't getting any younger. The only one ruining the fun is the Bills front office. You want to have fun? Make this team competitive-- and WIN! Super Bowl runs are fun. Teams worthy of paper bags over people's heads aren't fun.

[BertSquirtgum]

i'll have lots of fun at the home opener while you're sitting on here complaining about same **** over and over and over and over buganut

[YardRat]

He wasn't underpaid for a year and a half. Heck he wasn't underpaid at all. The Bills redid his deal after 2 years in the league. And he wanted another new, huge (yes, he wanted to be the highest-paid LT in the league) after another 2 years. That sets a bad precedent. And he's not worth near that amount. Ask any Philly fan.

They should have re-done his deal accordingly, with every move, especially after he performed at the position.

He came into the league as an undrafted TE, and was paid a fair salary.
He switched to RT, and started, and was given a new deal, appropriately.
He switched to LT, and started, and should have been given another new deal at that time.

Most of the time I side with management on similar issues, but in this specific case they got it wrong. Just IMO.

[Goobylal]

They should have re-done his deal accordingly, with every move, especially after he performed at the position.

He came into the league as an undrafted TE, and was paid a fair salary.
He switched to RT, and started, and was given a new deal, appropriately.
He switched to LT, and started, and should have been given another new deal at that time.

Most of the time I side with management on similar issues, but in this specific case they got it wrong. Just IMO.
His contract paid him for a move to LT. If you rewards players after every good season, you set a bad precedent. There was no reason Peters couldn't wait another year.

Ulimately I'm glad he's gone and they got what they did for him. He played like a chump in 2008, and last year when you'd have thought he'd be really motivated to play well, he still didn't. I think that the contract and his injuries (torn groin in 2007) have robbed him of his talent and desire.

[Jan Reimers]

That's the folly with being a "fan." I'm not a "fan." A "fan" is, in better terms, a "lemming." And not the real ones-- I mean the stereotypical ones that follow each other off cliffs. Fans support losers. I want a winner. This team hasn't made any progress toward winning. The owner is the same. The top college scout is the same, and making the same wrong decisions. As of now, the starting quarterback is the same. The left tackle position-- I've gone there enough, no need to hash over it again. The kicker and punter, two of the few successful members of the team, aren't getting any younger. The only one ruining the fun is the Bills front office. You want to have fun? Make this team competitive-- and WIN! Super Bowl runs are fun. Teams worthy of paper bags over people's heads aren't fun.
You don't know me and I don't know you. But I will tell you this. I am a fan who hates - and I mean DETESTS - losing. I take losses as hard, or harder, than anyone on this board. Don't tell me I don't care about winning or that I am a lemming, or any other nonsense.

I have one basic difference from you: I can find reason for optimism in the offseason, and not ***** about everything the Bills do. If we falter again in the regular season, I will be as miserable as anyone here.

[Philagape]

Many of you are missing the fun of being a fan. What possible enjoyment do you get from continual *****ing and whining? There are new coaches, new front office people, new schemes and new players.

Why not take a positive attitude toward the changes, rather than living in - and *****ing about - the past?

The Bills have many faults, and will continue to have them. So what? If you're a fan, try to find some positives and enjoy them. This is supposed to be fun!

Fans can have opinions about what the team is doing, whether they're positive or negative. Someone who focuses on just what he thinks is positive is a cheerleader.
And we ***** about the past because the team is still suffering for the past, most notably at QB and LT.

[Dr. Lecter]

At the end of the day, out of all of the negatives about this organization, Lynch is way off the radar.

[Griff]

They should have re-done his deal accordingly, with every move, especially after he performed at the position.

He came into the league as an undrafted TE, and was paid a fair salary.
He switched to RT, and started, and was given a new deal, appropriately.
He switched to LT, and started, and should have been given another new deal at that time.

Most of the time I side with management on similar issues, but in this specific case they got it wrong. Just IMO.

that's crazy, give a guy a new contract every time he changes positions?

[trapezeus]

the team was not behind peters griping for a new contract. it was well documented that peters request was pushing other players who were actually legitamately up contract wise behind a guy who just got paid 2 years ago.

Peters situation was the peters situation...the lynch situation is its own situation. Lynch is pretty much the only guy to blame for where he is. he is the only guy who can fix what he's broken.

This isn't an organizational issue. Also note, if lynch and the 2 other running backs run wild this year, the fans will be happy, lynch will get his wish to get off the team, and the bills will get a better return than sending a malcontent off a bad team.

value sometimes is simply derived from patience.

[Stewie]

First, "sacks given up" is a subjective statistic. It assumes the QB didn't hold the ball too long. It assumes the person doing the evaluating knew the blocking schemes. And it's different depending on who you ask.

Second, we currently have Jamon Meredith and Demetrius Bell fighting it out to be the starter at left tackle. Even if you guys are right and there was no way the Bills could have kept Peters, they have failed miserably in terms of replacing him with someone equal or better.

You have no idea if Jamon Meredith or Demetrius Bell is a better football player than Jason Peters. Admit it.

[HHURRICANE]

They should have re-done his deal accordingly, with every move, especially after he performed at the position.

He came into the league as an undrafted TE, and was paid a fair salary.
He switched to RT, and started, and was given a new deal, appropriately.
He switched to LT, and started, and should have been given another new deal at that time.

Most of the time I side with management on similar issues, but in this specific case they got it wrong. Just IMO.

This is the perfect summation of what happened!

End of the story.

Ironically the Bills refused to renegotiate when he wanted 7 million a year and he ended up getting 9 million a year the following year.

Sorry to break it to the rest of you but that means the Bills blew it. You held on 7 million a year, which was a deal in retrospect, and he got 9 million.

[OpIv37]

You have no idea if Jamon Meredith or Demetrius Bell is a better football player than Jason Peters. Admit it.

No idea?

I've seen Peters play football. I've seen Bell and Meredith play football. I have a pretty damn good idea.

[Jan Reimers]

Fans can have opinions about what the team is doing, whether they're positive or negative. Someone who focuses on just what he thinks is positive is a cheerleader.
And we ***** about the past because the team is still suffering for the past, most notably at QB and LT.
I never said any fan can't have any opinion he or she wants. I simply resent being called a lemming, or a "cheerleader," just because I can muster up some optimism among the grousing, griping and *****ing.

If the only true fans on here are the constant *****ers, I don't want to be one.

[trapezeus]

there is some middle ground here. i think if you can acknowledge that the bills are currently not in shape to make a championship run, you are recognizing the reality of the team. however, you can say, "every year there is a team that puts it together, and teams that fall apart." why not us?

That's fair. and that's what we all hope.

However, to have a team with 3 average to bad QB's, a line still in the same shape as last year (and we saw what happened to them), and a defense totally changed with many of the wrong personal being the stop gap has to make you pretty skeptical.

the bills last year had a defense that performed ok until it was playing too much and then fell apart. So yes, maybe the offense can get tweaked to do something better and help out the defense, but the defense most likley won't be as good as it was last year.

but this is why you play the games every sunday, no?

[better days]

This is the perfect summation of what happened!

End of the story.

Ironically the Bills refused to renegotiate when he wanted 7 million a year and he ended up getting 9 million a year the following year.

Sorry to break it to the rest of you but that means the Bills blew it. You held on 7 million a year, which was a deal in retrospect, and he got 9 million.

He got 9 million & played like a 3 million player last year. Meanwhile the Bills got a couple good players for him, I think the Eagles blew it.

[OpIv37]

there is some middle ground here. i think if you can acknowledge that the bills are currently not in shape to make a championship run, you are recognizing the reality of the team. however, you can say, "every year there is a team that puts it together, and teams that fall apart." why not us?

That's fair. and that's what we all hope.

However, to have a team with 3 average to bad QB's, a line still in the same shape as last year (and we saw what happened to them), and a defense totally changed with many of the wrong personal being the stop gap has to make you pretty skeptical.

the bills last year had a defense that performed ok until it was playing too much and then fell apart. So yes, maybe the offense can get tweaked to do something better and help out the defense, but the defense most likley won't be as good as it was last year.

but this is why you play the games every sunday, no?

This is pretty much what I've been trying to say.

The reality of the situation is that there are no guarantees in sports. Anything can happen. But the reality of the situation is that not all outcomes are equally likely. Due to the reasons you stated and the things that many of us have been saying all off-season, the chances of this team winning 5 games are far greater than the chances of this team going on a run and finally ending the playoff drought.

Some people don't want to acknowledge that reality.

[Jan Reimers]

Everyone knows the Bills' problems, and if we didn't know them through our own independent analyses of the team, we would know them through the incredibly redundant number of posts here that enumerate them in excruciating detail.

The trick for me is not to crap on every minor thing that happens, not to assume that every move they make will be wrong, and not to see absolute doom in every decision.

Many of us here are pretty knowlegable fans. Those of us that choose not to dwell on every negative, however, are often dismissed as somehow less enlightened than those that tell us over and over again what we already know.

The constant negativity on this board - particularly in an offseaason where there are positive changes in the works - really brings me down.

[Dr. Lecter]

Everyone knows the Bills' problems, and if we didn't know them through our own independent analyses of the team, we would know them through the incredibly redundant number of posts here that enumerate them in excruciating detail.

The trick for me is not to crap on every minor thing that happens, not to assume that every move they make will be wrong, and not to see absolute doom in every decision.

Many of us here are pretty knowlegable fans. Those of us that choose not to dwell on every negative, however, are often dismissed as somehow less enlightened than those that tell us over and over again what we already know.

The constant negativity on this board - particularly in an offseaason where there are positive changes in the works - really brings me down.

I see your point Jan and agree.

But equally frustrating are those that seem to get upset over any talk that is not glowing of the team.

I mean does a 3rd string/PS QB really deserve such a vigorous defense?

[madness]

I see your point Jan and agree.

But equally frustrating are those that seem to get upset over any talk that is not glowing of the team.

I mean does a 3rd string/PS QB really deserve such a vigorous defense?

Still goes both ways. How about harping nonstop over a 3rd sting DT?

[Philagape]

I never said any fan can't have any opinion he or she wants. I simply resent being called a lemming, or a "cheerleader," just because I can muster up some optimism among the grousing, griping and *****ing.

If the only true fans on here are the constant *****ers, I don't want to be one.

You urged others to share your viewpoint:


Many of you are missing the fun of being a fan. What possible enjoyment do you get from continual *****ing and whining? There are new coaches, new front office people, new schemes and new players.

Why not take a positive attitude toward the changes, rather than living in - and *****ing about - the past?

The Bills have many faults, and will continue to have them. So what? If you're a fan, try to find some positives and enjoy them. This is supposed to be fun!

And you set your own condition for fanhood. If you don't want people to tell you how to be a fan, then extend the same courtesy.
The fans are negative because the team has been negative for 10 years. The sky fell a long time ago, it's still fallen, and this franchise surrendered the benefit of the doubt many times over. Therefore optimism must be earned in the only way it can be, on the field when it counts.

[Jan Reimers]

I use the word "fan" in its traditional sense, as a supporter or enthusiast who actually likes, admires, or otherwise has some positive feeling for the object of his fandom.

It's just that some of the "fans" on here seem to pretty much hate the Bills right now, or at least disapprove of almost everything they do, which is different from the original concept.

But be any kind of fan you want to be, I don't really care. Kick 'em while they're down, and love 'em again when they win. Fair weather fandom is the easiest kind.

[Typ0]

if people didn't like and care about the team they wouldn't be bothered. Just the same, the team warrants criticism. People are fans in their own way just like they are religious in their own way. If we would stop going around trying to tell everyone they have to worship the team based on our own personal standards we'd be a lot better off.


I use the word "fan" in its traditional sense, as a supporter or enthusiast who actually likes, admires, or otherwise has some positive feeling for the object of his fandom.

It's just that some of the "fans" on here seem to pretty much hate the Bills right now, or at least disapprove of almost everything they do, which is different from the original concept.

But be any kind of fan you want to be, I don't really care. Kick 'em while they're down, and love 'em again when they win. Fair weather fandom is the easiest kind.

[Philagape]

I use the word "fan" in its traditional sense, as a supporter or enthusiast who actually likes, admires, or otherwise has some positive feeling for the object of his fandom.

It's just that some of the "fans" on here seem to pretty much hate the Bills right now, or at least disapprove of almost everything they do, which is different from the original concept.

But be any kind of fan you want to be, I don't really care. Kick 'em while they're down, and love 'em again when they win. Fair weather fandom is the easiest kind.

No, it's easier to be a cheerleader waving pom-poms, putting on a happy face and dismissing negativity as hate. That's the cheapest card of all to play.

Fanhood means you WANT the team to win, and you care about how they do. What the team does elicits a reaction, whether it be positive or negative. A negative franchise will draw negative reactions from fans; if they weren't fans, they wouldn't care.
And fanhood certainly does not mean one must check their opinions at the door.

You said yourself you get mad when they lose, so does that not meet your definition of a fair-weather fan? Kick em while they're down!

[OpIv37]

Everyone knows the Bills' problems, and if we didn't know them through our own independent analyses of the team, we would know them through the incredibly redundant number of posts here that enumerate them in excruciating detail.

The trick for me is not to crap on every minor thing that happens, not to assume that every move they make will be wrong, and not to see absolute doom in every decision.

Many of us here are pretty knowlegable fans. Those of us that choose not to dwell on every negative, however, are often dismissed as somehow less enlightened than those that tell us over and over again what we already know.

The constant negativity on this board - particularly in an offseaason where there are positive changes in the works - really brings me down.

First, the fact that there are "positive" changes this off-season is a matter of opinion. There are changes, but some of them aren't the right changes, and some things that aren't being changed need to be. So, there is a very realistic reason for the constant negativity. If it brings you down, well, too bad- not everything is perfect and sometimes there's nothing we can do about that.

And what you call "dwelling on the negative" is often just people accepting reality. For example, if someone says "We'll go 9-7 this year," and someone else responds with "Not with our OL or QB's," well, that could be considered "dwelling on the negative" because both the QB and the OL have been covered ad nauseum on this board. However, the reality of the situation is that the OL and the QB's are the two factors that are most likely to hold this team back, so it's a realistic and appropriate response. And someone who already knows about the OL and the QB situation would be stupid to still claim this team can be 9-7, hence people feel the need to repeat it.

In reality, the negatives of this team far outweigh the positives, and those who talk realistically about the team are thus more negative than positive. And that's why you feel like those who are positive are treated as though they are "somehow less enlightened." Being positive about this team at this point simply isn't realistic.

[Bill Cody]

I'm a constant downer? This TEAM is a constant downer. All I do is discuss the reality of it. I can't help it if reality bothers you.

And I don't get any enjoyment out of this team anymore because there is no enjoyment in losing. But, I'm a fan so I stand by the team no matter how bad it gets. I don't need delusions and false hopes to get through the bad times.

And if you don't trust my opinion that's fine, but your faith in Nix is based solely on the fact that he works for the Bills. The reality is that he's doing a lot of the same bull**** that this team has pulled in the past, and fans have plenty of reasons to be skeptical.

No. You're just a fan like the rest of us, not a professional GM. Is Nix a good GM? I'm encouraged but it's early yet. Does he know more than you? There's no doubt about that, I've read your posts. No offense but keep your day job. I'm not saying it's not fair to question any and all moves the Bills make. Just don't delude yourself into thinking you could do better. You can't.

I don't question your loyalty to the team at all. AND I'm no shrink but you seem to feel like always taking the "glass is half empty" take on things will protect you from feeling bad when the Bills do disapoint. Maybe that works for you but it doesn't seem like much fun to me <shrug>. Do I expect my views to change you in any way shape or form? Er...no. Carry on.

[HHURRICANE]

I use the word "fan" in its traditional sense, as a supporter or enthusiast who actually likes, admires, or otherwise has some positive feeling for the object of his fandom.

It's just that some of the "fans" on here seem to pretty much hate the Bills right now, or at least disapprove of almost everything they do, which is different from the original concept.

But be any kind of fan you want to be, I don't really care. Kick 'em while they're down, and love 'em again when they win. Fair weather fandom is the easiest kind.

Jan,

You are one of the good guys on here. With that said part of getting excited in the off-season is having something to get excited about.

The Bills didn't hire a big time coach or GM. That was Ralph Wilson's call. Let's be honest Gailey and Nix would have a hard time finding these jobs anywhere else.

In addition, we are going into this season with basically the same terrible o-line that we had last season so the chances that this anemic offense is going to score any more points is slim to none.

I find it ironic that Lynch, who created his off the field problems, has no problem disrespecting the organization with his teammates pretty much saying nothing negative. The guy even admitted that he was "chilling".

I find it funny that we create these disgruntled athletes but it's never the front offices fault. If the argumnet is that it's the players isn't it the front office who is drafting them?

[OpIv37]

No. You're just a fan like the rest of us, not a professional GM. Is Nix a good GM? I'm encouraged but it's early yet. Does he know more than you? There's no doubt about that, I've read your posts. No offense but keep your day job. I'm not saying it's not fair to question any and all moves the Bills make. Just don't delude yourself into thinking you could do better. You can't.

I don't question your loyalty to the team at all. AND I'm no shrink but you seem to feel like always taking the "glass is half empty" take on things will protect you from feeling bad when the Bills do disapoint. Maybe that works for you but it doesn't seem like much fun to me <shrug>. Do I expect my views to change you in any way shape or form? Er...no. Carry on.

So you're attempting to psychoanalyze me based on message board postings about a football team mired in a decade of futility?

Losing sucks regardless if I see it coming or not. As a fan, I want the team to win and I get pissed when they lose. There's no "Oh well, I knew they were going to lose so now I don't care," so this protection stuff is complete psycho-babble BS.

As far as whether or not I could do better than Nix, I never said that I could. I simply questioned some of his moves, as most fans do, and as you agreed is appropriate, so I'm really not sure what you're getting at with that whole diatribe.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

Jan,

You are one of the good guys on here. With that said part of getting excited in the off-season is having something to get excited about.

The Bills didn't hire a big time coach or GM. That was Ralph Wilson's call. Let's be honest Gailey and Nix would have a hard time finding these jobs anywhere else.

In addition, we are going into this season with basically the same terrible o-line that we had last season so the chances that this anemic offense is going to score any more points is slim to none.

I find it ironic that Lynch, who created his off the field problems, has no problem disrespecting the organization with his teammates pretty much saying nothing negative. The guy even admitted that he was "chilling".

I find it funny that we create these disgruntled athletes but it's never the front offices fault. If the argumnet is that it's the players isn't it the front office who is drafting them?


Don't Nix and Gailey get a year to evaluate the roster to see what they really have? You can only get so much out of watching film.

[OpIv37]

Don't Nix and Gailey get a year to evaluate the roster to see what they really have? You can only get so much out of watching film.

Um, no.

Nix was involved with the team last year in some capacity (I forget exactly what- scouting maybe), so he should already be familiar with many of the players. And with so much game tape available, you can learn a LOT by watching film.

I'm sure there are some players that Nix and Gailey want a closer look at to see how they fit their system, but for the majority of the players, they should already know whether or not they're worth keeping.

The reality is that this team has far too many holes to reasonably replace in one off-season, so they get a year or two in that respect. But they should be able to tell from game tape that we are in desperate need of an LT and QB without an up-close-and-personal evaluation of the players.

[HHURRICANE]

Don't Nix and Gailey get a year to evaluate the roster to see what they really have? You can only get so much out of watching film.

I think there isn't a poster here that wouldn't be giving every benefit of the doubt to a Parcells or Cowher.

But let's be real for a second. The chances of Gailey/Nix being any better than anything we've seen over the last 10 years is...well...the odds are against them.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

Um, no.

Nix was involved with the team last year in some capacity (I forget exactly what- scouting maybe), so he should already be familiar with many of the players. And with so much game tape available, you can learn a LOT by watching film.

I'm sure there are some players that Nix and Gailey want a closer look at to see how they fit their system, but for the majority of the players, they should already know whether or not they're worth keeping.

The reality is that this team has far too many holes to reasonably replace in one off-season, so they get a year or two in that respect. But they should be able to tell from game tape that we are in desperate need of an LT and QB without an up-close-and-personal evaluation of the players.


But the argument could be made that Jauron brought the team down. With a new coach and scheme things could be different.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

I think there isn't a poster here that wouldn't be giving every benefit of the doubt to a Parcells or Cowher.

But let's be real for a second. The chances of Gailey/Nix being any better than anything we've seen over the last 10 years is...well...the odds are against them.

How so, Nix has more experience than Marv, Dick and Russ put together.

[OpIv37]

But the argument could be made that Jauron brought the team down. With a new coach and scheme things could be different.

Jauron did bring the team down, but the reality is that the team lacks talent and Jauron was just one of many problems. We're worse at WR and RT than we were last year, plus the D is worse with the learning curve associated with the new system.

[OpIv37]

I think there isn't a poster here that wouldn't be giving every benefit of the doubt to a Parcells or Cowher.

But let's be real for a second. The chances of Gailey/Nix being any better than anything we've seen over the last 10 years is...well...the odds are against them.

Even with Parcells or Cowher I think they'd be in rough shape for this season. The Levy/Brandon combo left this team in terrible shape.

However, with either of those two, I'd be more confident that we'd improve over the course of this season and be competitive next season, or at the absolute latest, the season after. With Nix and Gailey, the only solutions they had for our 5 biggest holes fall into the "band-aid on cancer" category. I didn't expect them to fill all 5 sufficiently in one off-season, but I do think at least 2 of them could have been handled better than they were.

[HHURRICANE]

But the argument could be made that Jauron brought the team down. With a new coach and scheme things could be different.

Jauron lost us some close games no doubt. He also got the team to play at a higher level at times when the talent did warrant it.

I don't care who the coach was last year that o-line wasn't winning us any games. The FO cuts his knees out from under him when they jettisoned three starters and replaced them with scrubs.

I don't see the offense fairing any better this year. Same bad o-line, worse WRs, and the same 3 QBs. What magical scheme is changing this.

[HHURRICANE]

Even with Parcells or Cowher I think they'd be in rough shape for this season. The Levy/Brandon combo left this team in terrible shape.

However, with either of those two, I'd be more confident that we'd improve over the course of this season and be competitive next season, or at the absolute latest, the season after. With Nix and Gailey, the only solutions they had for our 5 biggest holes fall into the "band-aid on cancer" category. I didn't expect them to fill all 5 sufficiently in one off-season, but I do think at least 2 of them could have been handled better than they were.

We are in agreement. You just said what I was implying. We could live with a bad season with a Parcells because you know the fix is in play.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

We are in agreement. You just said what I was implying. We could live with a bad season with a Parcells because you know the fix is in play.

Thats funny, I thought Miami finished 7-9 last year. I must have missed something.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

Jauron did bring the team down, but the reality is that the team lacks talent and Jauron was just one of many problems. We're worse at WR and RT than we were last year, plus the D is worse with the learning curve associated with the new system.

Do we really know how far he did. Look at his drafts, time management, training camps........... OBD was a country club with Jauron at the helm.

[Bill Cody]

So you're attempting to psychoanalyze me based on message board postings about a football team mired in a decade of futility?

Losing sucks regardless if I see it coming or not. As a fan, I want the team to win and I get pissed when they lose. There's no "Oh well, I knew they were going to lose so now I don't care," so this protection stuff is complete psycho-babble BS.

As far as whether or not I could do better than Nix, I never said that I could. I simply questioned some of his moves, as most fans do, and as you agreed is appropriate, so I'm really not sure what you're getting at with that whole diatribe.

Ok never mind

[OpIv37]

Do we really know how far he did. Look at his drafts, time management, training camps........... OBD was a country club with Jauron at the helm.

The problem is that not only did Jauron have limited talent due to bad drafting, he and his fellow coaches were bad at developing that talent. And this is the situation that Gailey has entered. It's going to take them a couple of years to get these players and this roster into shape. Meanwhile, we're changing defensive schemes and have more holes on O than we did last year. Gailey alone can't overcome all of that.

[madness]

plus the D is worse with the learning curve associated with the new system.
Historical data of the last six teams that made the switch prove otherwise. 4 of the six did better in pass and rush defense albeit most not by much but it proves there is hardly the degree of negative impact as you stated time and time again.

[OpIv37]

Historical data of the last six teams that made the switch prove otherwise. 4 of the six did better in pass and rush defense albeit most not by much but it proves there is hardly the degree of negative impact as you stated time and time again.

And just out of curiosity, how many of those teams started their D's by getting a real NT or two? How many of those teams brought in someone who could make an immediate impact as a pass rusher from a 3-4 OLB position? We did neither of those things.

Oh, and how many of those teams had a ****ty offense that left them on the field for 35 minutes a game?

Not all situations are equal.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

And just out of curiosity, how many of those teams started their D's by getting a real NT or two? How many of those teams brought in someone who could make an immediate impact as a pass rusher from a 3-4 OLB position? We did neither of those things.

Oh, and how many of those teams had a ****ty offense that left them on the field for 35 minutes a game?

Not all situations are equal.

Exactly, Brandon/Jauron and Nix/Gailey are not the same situation either.

[OpIv37]

Exactly, Brandon/Jauron and Nix/Gailey are not the same situation either.

Nope.

Gailey has worse WR's, worse RT, and a new D to teach mainly the same players.

But he is working under the same crappy ownership, a very similar front office, and with mostly the same crappy players. So he does have that going for him.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

Nope.

Gailey has worse WR's, worse RT, and a new D to teach mainly the same players.

But he is working under the same crappy ownership, a very similar front office, and with mostly the same crappy players. So he does have that going for him.

Would it be fair to say that we have right now about the same talent at Wr as we did in 2008?

[madness]

And just out of curiosity, how many of those teams started their D's by getting a real NT or two? How many of those teams brought in someone who could make an immediate impact as a pass rusher from a 3-4 OLB position? We did neither of those things.

Oh, and how many of those teams had a ****ty offense that left them on the field for 35 minutes a game?

Not all situations are equal.

Most them either drafted a NT in the middle rounds or signed a middle tier DT with most selecting only one defensive player in the first two rounds of the draft. all most all of them had at least one DE who moved to OLB and had a very good year.

AVG TOP year by the offense before the transition:

Bills: 28:12
Broncos: 28:44
Chiefs: 28:04
Packers: 31:37
Ravens: 32:48
49ers: 29:00
Jets: 31:03

[OpIv37]

Most them either drafted a NT in the middle rounds or signed a middle tier DT with most selecting only one defensive player in the first two rounds of the draft. all most all of them had at least one DE who moved to OLB and had a very good year.

AVG TOP year by the offense before the transition:

Bills: 28:12
Broncos: 28:44
Chiefs: 28:04
Packers: 31:37
Ravens: 32:48
49ers: 29:00
Jets: 31:03

the only one worse than the Bills is the Chiefs and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they were one of the 2 out of 6 that didn't improve.

[OpIv37]

Would it be fair to say that we have right now about the same talent at Wr as we did in 2008?

No, I don't think so. At least in 08 we had Reed. While Reed was a 3rd WR with limited speed, that's more than Johnson, Hardy or Easley have proven at this point.

[madness]

the only one worse than the Bills is the Chiefs and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they were one of the 2 out of 6 that didn't improve.

The Jets and the Ravens were the two teams that didn't improve.

[OpIv37]

The Jets and the Ravens were the two teams that didn't improve.

What years are these stats from? Where's the link?

[madness]

No link, just good old fashion research. Broncos, Chiefs, Packers made the transition in '09. Ravens, 49ers and Jets switched in '07. Forgot to mention 4 out of 6 teams also improved in Points Allowed. (Ravens and Jets were the losers once again)

[Typ0]

One thing the last ten years has taught me about being a Bills fan is there is a whole lot of people that, when the whistle blows on a crappy season at the end of december, that go "Pheww....that is finally over, now things are looking up." Like sands through the hour glass so goes the days of our lives. How could it possibly be worse? It must be better! Hence, we have optimism and whiners about people who point out things that might indicate otherwise. Literally, Ralph Wilson could hire Mickey Mouse as a coach, Donald Duck as a Quarterback and Pluto as a Nose Tackle and people would be excited about that despite the fact there would be cartoons at three critical positions going into the season....it probably wouldn't be much of a downgrade.

[Goobylal]

Jan,

You are one of the good guys on here. With that said part of getting excited in the off-season is having something to get excited about.

The Bills didn't hire a big time coach or GM. That was Ralph Wilson's call. Let's be honest Gailey and Nix would have a hard time finding these jobs anywhere else.

In addition, we are going into this season with basically the same terrible o-line that we had last season so the chances that this anemic offense is going to score any more points is slim to none.

I find it ironic that Lynch, who created his off the field problems, has no problem disrespecting the organization with his teammates pretty much saying nothing negative. The guy even admitted that he was "chilling".

I find it funny that we create these disgruntled athletes but it's never the front offices fault. If the argumnet is that it's the players isn't it the front office who is drafting them?
No big name coaches or GM's have ever wanted to coach in Buffalo, outside of maybe in the first decade or so. If this past off-season didn't prove that to you once and for all, nothing will, and there's no point in discussing this any further. The fact is that Buffalo is the last place most coaches, GM's, and players want to go, unless they're getting a huge premium (think Dockery and Walker). And it has nothing to do with Ralph.

As for "the same O-line," please stop with that nonsense. The O-line last year featured 3, sometimes 4, rookie starting on it. This year, there will be no rookies starting. So it's not even close to "the same O-line." Hangman will be better for not having to play between 2 rookies, Green has much more experience at RT than anyone who played there after Butler went down, and LT should be better if for no other reason than he'll get the starter's reps throughout camp and not be elevated from backup status because the starter got cut days before the season started. Of course, injuries can and will change things.

As for Lynch, where do you keep getting that he "disrespected the organization?" The Bills have made it clear that he's no longer their starter and really isn't going to be a major part of their offense. He realizes this and stayed away from OTA's. How that is "disrespecting" is anyone's guess.

[Goobylal]

Jauron did bring the team down, but the reality is that the team lacks talent and Jauron was just one of many problems. We're worse at WR and RT than we were last year, plus the D is worse with the learning curve associated with the new system.
You're joking about RT, right? And as for WR, on paper they're worse, but that offense last year was an abomination. It won't be hard to improve on it, considering in 2008 they gained 500 more yards passing without TO. That offense actually made me long for the days of Schonert.

As for defense, many teams have made a successful transition to a 3-4 over an off-season. The secondary is great, they have the horses up-front for the 3-man line, and have some talent at LB'er. Heck anything will be better than the soon-to-be-defunct Tampa-2.

[Goobylal]

We are in agreement. You just said what I was implying. We could live with a bad season with a Parcells because you know the fix is in play.
Parcells' teams have steadily worsened. He went from a SB winner in Jersey, to SB loser with the Pats, to first round knockout in Dallas, to first round blowout in Miami. And the team failed to make the playoffs last year and their chances of making them this year don't look so good.

Cowher has only been with one team. And no coach has ever won a SB with 2 different teams.

[Typ0]

It has everything to do with Ralph.


No big name coaches or GM's have ever wanted to coach in Buffalo, outside of maybe in the first decade or so. If this past off-season didn't prove that to you once and for all, nothing will, and there's no point in discussing this any further. The fact is that Buffalo is the last place most coaches, GM's, and players want to go, unless they're getting a huge premium (think Dockery and Walker). And it has nothing to do with Ralph.

As for "the same O-line," please stop with that nonsense. The O-line last year featured 3, sometimes 4, rookie starting on it. This year, there will be no rookies starting. So it's not even close to "the same O-line." Hangman will be better for not having to play between 2 rookies, Green has much more experience at RT than anyone who played there after Butler went down, and LT should be better if for no other reason than he'll get the starter's reps throughout camp and not be elevated from backup status because the starter got cut days before the season started. Of course, injuries can and will change things.

As for Lynch, where do you keep getting that he "disrespected the organization?" The Bills have made it clear that he's no longer their starter and really isn't going to be a major part of their offense. He realizes this and stayed away from OTA's. How that is "disrespecting" is anyone's guess.

[BertSquirtgum]

i wish i could delete this thread off my front page. it's so worthless.

[OpIv37]

You're joking about RT, right? And as for WR, on paper they're worse, but that offense last year was an abomination. It won't be hard to improve on it, considering in 2008 they gained 500 more yards passing without TO. That offense actually made me long for the days of Schonert.

As for defense, many teams have made a successful transition to a 3-4 over an off-season. The secondary is great, they have the horses up-front for the 3-man line, and have some talent at LB'er. Heck anything will be better than the soon-to-be-defunct Tampa-2.

Yes, RT is worse. Green is a joke.

How are we going to improve on O? We added Spiller and.... Spiller.

The secondary is above average but they will be held back by a non-existent pass rush. And the 3-4 can't work without a real NT. The closest thing we have is the rookie Troupe and the retread Harvey. I don't know why people can't see that. We absolutely DON'T have the horses up front. Our DL is a joke.

I think the 3-4 will be better than the Tampa 2- but right now, we're running a 3-4 with a lot of Tampa 2 personnel, which is the only thing worse than running a Tampa 2.

[Goobylal]

It has everything to do with Ralph.
That's right. I forgot that Ralph controls the economy, market size, and weather in Buffalo. I'm also pretty sure he moved the Falls to give Canada the prettier side. :rolleyes:

[Goobylal]

Yes, RT is worse. Green is a joke.
Based on...what? How he performed in the Raiders' "offense" the past few years? That's like evaluating anyone on the Bills' offense last year. The Raiders and their 12.3 PPG last year (2nd only to the Rams' 10.9 PPG) made the Bills and their 16.1 PPG seem like a juggernaut.

And apparently you didn't see who the Bills had starting at RT last year after Butler went down. Although I will give you that Green needs to cut down on the penalties.


How are we going to improve on O? We added Spiller and.... Spiller.
You guys think in concrete terms. "Well, the same players are there and they just added one, so where's the improvement?" :rolleyes:

The improvement will come a) from having an OC that knows how to run an NFL offense and who will have been directing the offense all off-season, training camp, and pre-season (not to mention won't be implementing an offense that the team has no business running, like the no huddle), b) the O-line not having 3-4 rookies starting on it and the LT having gotten all the starting snaps in training camp and pre-season, c) Lynch available for every game this year, d) Nelson not being a rookie, and e) yes, Spiller. I wish the Bills still had TO since I'd love to see what Gailey can do with him, and the younger guys are unproven. But I can see Gailey doing what the Jets did last year and mostly running the ball and mixing it up with judicious use of passes.

The secondary is above average but they will be held back by a non-existent pass rush.
The secondary is one of the best units in the league, not "above average." And they didn't have a great pass rush last year.

And the 3-4 can't work without a real NT. The closest thing we have is the rookie Troupe and the retread Harvey. I don't know why people can't see that. We absolutely DON'T have the horses up front. Our DL is a joke.
Dallas and Baltimore run 3-4's very effectively without a true NT. Kelly Gregg and Jay Ratliffe aren't traditional NT's, and they do just fine. And perhaps you forgot about the addition of Dwan Edwards at DE, and Stroud moving to DE, and losing weight to help in that regard? And then there's Spencer Johnson. And Alex Carrington. All of them are 290# pounds. Oh yeah, and there's Troup.

I think the 3-4 will be better than the Tampa 2- but right now, we're running a 3-4 with a lot of Tampa 2 personnel, which is the only thing worse than running a Tampa 2.
Where do you get that they are using "a lot of Tampa 2 personnel?" The secondary isn't. The DL as I mentioned will be filled with guys who are huge. And the LB's won't feature smurfs like Keith Ellison anymore, having guys in the 240+# range like Poz, Davis, Mitchell, Torbor, Maybin, Ellis, and Kelsay.

[Typ0]

That's right. I forgot that Ralph controls the economy, market size, and weather in Buffalo. I'm also pretty sure he moved the Falls to give Canada the prettier side. :rolleyes:

No, he just drove his organization into the ground being a senile old man who makes bad decisions and no one takes seriously.

[Goobylal]

No, he just drove his organization into the ground being a senile old man who makes bad decisions and no one takes seriously.
Outside of the past 4 years and hiring Levy as GM, who Jauron as HC, his decisions have been sound. And maybe if the owners had listened to him back in 2006, they wouldn't be facing a lockout.

[OpIv37]

Based on...what? How he performed in the Raiders' "offense" the past few years? That's like evaluating anyone on the Bills' offense last year. The Raiders and their 12.3 PPG last year (2nd only to the Rams' 10.9 PPG) made the Bills and their 16.1 PPG seem like a juggernaut.

And apparently you didn't see who the Bills had starting at RT last year after Butler went down. Although I will give you that Green needs to cut down on the penalties.


This is just ridiculous. Green is ON the Bills offense that you're criticizing, and other than him and Spiller, that offense is the SAME as last year. If Green was held back by a lackluster Raiders' O last year, he'll be held back by a lackluster Bills' O this year.



You guys think in concrete terms. "Well, the same players are there and they just added one, so where's the improvement?" :rolleyes:

The improvement will come a) from having an OC that knows how to run an NFL offense and who will have been directing the offense all off-season, training camp, and pre-season (not to mention won't be implementing an offense that the team has no business running, like the no huddle), b) the O-line not having 3-4 rookies starting on it and the LT having gotten all the starting snaps in training camp and pre-season, c) Lynch available for every game this year, d) Nelson not being a rookie, and e) yes, Spiller. I wish the Bills still had TO since I'd love to see what Gailey can do with him, and the younger guys are unproven. But I can see Gailey doing what the Jets did last year and mostly running the ball and mixing it up with judicious use of passes.

The secondary is one of the best units in the league, not "above average." And they didn't have a great pass rush last year.

Dallas and Baltimore run 3-4's very effectively without a true NT. Kelly Gregg and Jay Ratliffe aren't traditional NT's, and they do just fine. And perhaps you forgot about the addition of Dwan Edwards at DE, and Stroud moving to DE, and losing weight to help in that regard? And then there's Spencer Johnson. And Alex Carrington. All of them are 290# pounds. Oh yeah, and there's Troup.

Where do you get that they are using "a lot of Tampa 2 personnel?" The secondary isn't. The DL as I mentioned will be filled with guys who are huge. And the LB's won't feature smurfs like Keith Ellison anymore, having guys in the 240+# range like Poz, Davis, Mitchell, Torbor, Maybin, Ellis, and Kelsay.

All of this is a) a combination of crap we've heard before (new OC, the OL will "gel", "experience" for 2nd year players/2nd year starters) and b) using the exception to prove the rule. Ratliffe is a freak of nature and Baltimore has superior talent everywhere on that D. Maybin, Ellis and Kelsay were mediocre to terrible in the 4-3 and have never played the 3-4 before. Our NT's consist of a rookie, a castoff and an undersized 3-4 DT. Our DE's consist of an aging 3-4 DT, a rookie and Edwards.

As far as Tampa-2 guys: Kyle Williams, Marcus Stroud, Maybin, Ellis, Kelsay. All will see significant time on the field.

[Goobylal]

I'm done talking to a brick wall.

[OpIv37]

I'm done talking to a brick wall.

I could say the same thing for you. All you did is repeat the same tired logic as to why this team will be better that we've been sold every other season. And it's never panned out. Yet, you expect it to work this time. You expect us to get buy with undersized NT's because there is ONE example of ONE guy doing it on another team, etc. It's the same ridiculous logic that people bring up every off-season when I criticize the team, and its' the same ridiculous logic that turns out to be wrong once the games start.

[Goobylal]

I could say the same thing for you. All you did is repeat the same tired logic as to why this team will be better that we've been sold every other season. And it's never panned out. Yet, you expect it to work this time. You expect us to get buy with undersized NT's because there is ONE example of ONE guy doing it on another team, etc. It's the same ridiculous logic that people bring up every off-season when I criticize the team, and its' the same ridiculous logic that turns out to be wrong once the games start.
Nothing is more ridiculous than perseverating on "it's the same players," when there's a regime/coaching change. As if players can't improve after their rookie years or with a new coach, or schemes don't matter.

[OpIv37]

Nothing is more ridiculous than perseverating on "it's the same players," when there's a regime/coaching change. As if players can't improve after their rookie years or with a new coach, or schemes don't matter.

Hahahaha.

We've been sold these lines at least 3 times in the last 10 years to no avail. It's always "player improvement" or "new regime" and it's always the same result on the field.

Schemes and player improvement help TO A POINT, but this team is far beyond that point. We need better schemes AND better players.

Being a Bills fan is like battered woman syndrome. "THIS time will be different- I just KNOW it will!"

[Goobylal]

Hahahaha.

We've been sold these lines at least 3 times in the last 10 years to no avail. It's always "player improvement" or "new regime" and it's always the same result on the field.

Schemes and player improvement help TO A POINT, but this team is far beyond that point. We need better schemes AND better players.

Being a Bills fan is like battered woman syndrome. "THIS time will be different- I just KNOW it will!"[/QUOTE]
If that's how you feel, then the only one to blame for feeling that way is you. You have 3 choices: stay weak and be the victim, get strong and improve your outlook, or get out.

[OpIv37]

If that's how you feel, then the only one to blame for feeling that way is you. You have 3 choices: stay weak and be the victim, get strong and improve your outlook, or get out.

Improving one's outlook has nothing to do with improving the situation. All that does is give you a false sense of security about a situation that's still bad.

[Goobylal]

If that's how you feel, then the only one to blame for feeling that way is you. You have 3 choices: stay weak and be the victim, get strong and improve your outlook, or get out.

Improving one's outlook has nothing to do with improving the situation. All that does is give you a false sense of security about a situation that's still bad.[/QUOTE]
Well, *****ing and moaning about the situation doesn't do anything. And it makes those who do look like fools for sticking around a situation they feel is hopeless, when they are free to leave at any time.

[OpIv37]

Well, *****ing and moaning about the situation doesn't do anything. And it makes those who do look like fools for sticking around a situation they feel is hopeless, when they are free to leave at any time.

So, if I stay, I'm a fool, but if I leave, then I'm a fair-weather fan and a bandwagon jumper. So, the only way for me to please you is to stay, but start thinking like you. Got it.

What you call "*****ing and moaning" is what I call "acknowledging reality. This message bard is devoted to a team that has been underperforming for a decade and still has a ****load of problems. You're not going to see a bunch of happy-go-lucky fans on here. If you don't like it, you can look like a fool for sticking around and *****ing and moaning about it, or you are free to leave at any time.

[Goobylal]

So, if I stay, I'm a fool, but if I leave, then I'm a fair-weather fan and a bandwagon jumper. So, the only way for me to please you is to stay, but start thinking like you. Got it.

What you call "*****ing and moaning" is what I call "acknowledging reality. This message bard is devoted to a team that has been underperforming for a decade and still has a ****load of problems. You're not going to see a bunch of happy-go-lucky fans on here. If you don't like it, you can look like a fool for sticking around and *****ing and moaning about it, or you are free to leave at any time.
Worrying about what people will say if you leave is what keeps a battered woman a battered woman. Who are you worried about calling you a bandwagon jumper if you leave? Don't you feel that those who think the Bills will improve are fools?

Look, this is football, not life or death. When it gets to the point where you feel like a battered woman, it might be time to take a step back. And no you don't have to think like me. But saying "well, I think they're still going to suck because they've sucked for a decade" isn't the answer either. But I realize it's a wonderful defense mechanism, because if you're right, you can say "see, I told you so," and if you're wrong, you can say "they surprised me and I'm happy I was wrong."

[OpIv37]

I didn't say I felt like a battered woman. I said you're acting like one by believing things will be different. And I don't think they're going to suck because they've sucked for a decade. I think they're going to suck because they're still doing the same things that created that sucky decade.

As far as the defense mechanism, it's psycho babble bull****. Losing sucks whether I see it coming or not.

[Goobylal]

I didn't say I felt like a battered woman. I said you're acting like one by believing things will be different. And I don't think they're going to suck because they've sucked for a decade. I think they're going to suck because they're still doing the same things that created that sucky decade.
How in the world do you figure they're doing the same things? Now this I gotta hear!

As far as the defense mechanism, it's psycho babble bull****. Losing sucks whether I see it coming or not.
It may seem like psychobabble BS, but it's the truth. Regardless of whether losing sucks, which it does.

[OpIv37]

How in the world do you figure they're doing the same things? Now this I gotta hear!


Let's see.... selecting a lower tier coach, drafting the same positions high every year (we've picked RB in the first round 3 times in the last 8 drafts), running a defensive scheme without the proper personnel, using rookies/backups/retreads in key positions (C-Han was a back up in Carolina, NT, WR for starters), expecting to improve via "player improvement" rather than bringing in more talent (like NYJ and Miami did), still having Modrak, Brandon and Overdorf involved with the team...

Same ****, different day.

[Goobylal]

Let's see.... selecting a lower tier coach, drafting the same positions high every year (we've picked RB in the first round 3 times in the last 8 drafts), running a defensive scheme without the proper personnel, using rookies/backups/retreads in key positions (C-Han was a back up in Carolina, NT, WR for starters), expecting to improve via "player improvement" rather than bringing in more talent (like NYJ and Miami did), still having Modrak, Brandon and Overdorf involved with the team...

Same ****, different day.
Silly me. Here I thought the differences were:

- a new GM who was an assistant GM with a successful organization
- a new head coach who had a winning record and took his team to the playoffs both years of his first coaching stint
- a new coaching staff
- a new defensive scheme
- taking the BPA in the draft rather than reaching for a need
- making changes in how the team trains
- firing Chuck Lester

And read the other thread regarding the 3-4. Suffice it to say that none of the players on the Bills' defense, outside of maybe Ellison, are Tampa-2 players. They merely played in the system for several years.

[starrymessenger]

Funny but Marshawn and the Bills should be on the same page because they are aligned in interest. Marshawn has an opportunity to nail down his spot as the Bill's inside runner, which the Bills need him to do. If he does that and has a good year, his trade value will increase: the Bills would be able to get something for him and he might be able to negotiate a lucrative extension with his new team, which is what he probably wanted to do this year-but could not for the reasons that we know.

[Mr. Pink]

Hahahaha.

We've been sold these lines at least 3 times in the last 10 years to no avail. It's always "player improvement" or "new regime" and it's always the same result on the field.

Schemes and player improvement help TO A POINT, but this team is far beyond that point. We need better schemes AND better players.

Being a Bills fan is like battered woman syndrome. "THIS time will be different- I just KNOW it will!"


Schemes when you first change never help. This whole year, in my opinion, is basically a wash. I have zero expectations of this team competing for anything.

What I do have expectations of is some of those guys on defense can actually fit into the 3-4 system. Right now I see a defense full of square peg guys trying to be thrust into a round hole. I have expectations that Spiller will prove to be a good draft pick. I have expectations that Byrd, while his numbers will be down, will progress and be build upon his rookie season. I expect that we will run the ball 50% of the time because we're not built to be a passing team.

This year will be different though. Just not in a good way.

[OpIv37]

Silly me. Here I thought the differences were:

- a new GM who was an assistant GM with a successful organization
- a new head coach who had a winning record and took his team to the playoffs both years of his first coaching stint
- a new coaching staff
- a new defensive scheme
- taking the BPA in the draft rather than reaching for a need
- making changes in how the team trains
- firing Chuck Lester

And read the other thread regarding the 3-4. Suffice it to say that none of the players on the Bills' defense, outside of maybe Ellison, are Tampa-2 players. They merely played in the system for several years.

-The new GM and assistant GM have the same guy over them- Ralph, and the same guys under them- Modrak, Overdorf and Brandon
-The new head coach has back to back 9-7 seasons and barely made the playoffs, plus he hasn't been a head coach in the NFL in 10 years and his last few NFL stints as OC's were not exactly stellar. It's another bottom-of-the-barrel coaching selection, just like our last 3.
-BPA? All we did was correct a past mistake, which means we're spinning our wheels and failing to address other holes. This is what's been going on for YEARS with the draft.
-Changing how the team trains- I'll give you that one.
-Not sure how much difference swapping one asst coach is going to make.

As far as 3-4 vs Tampa-2 players, I disagree. All the former DE's/current OLB's we have are Tampa-2 guys. All our former DT's/current DE's are Tampa-2 guys. None are the proper size for 3-4 NT or DE. I will give you that we did not have a true tampa-2 MLB because Poz is better suited for the outside in a 4-3 or ILB in a 3-4, but that's only one player.

[Goobylal]

-The new GM and assistant GM have the same guy over them- Ralph, and the same guys under them- Modrak, Overdorf and Brandon
-The new head coach has back to back 9-7 seasons and barely made the playoffs, plus he hasn't been a head coach in the NFL in 10 years and his last few NFL stints as OC's were not exactly stellar. It's another bottom-of-the-barrel coaching selection, just like our last 3.
-BPA? All we did was correct a past mistake, which means we're spinning our wheels and failing to address other holes. This is what's been going on for YEARS with the draft.
-Changing how the team trains- I'll give you that one.
-Not sure how much difference swapping one asst coach is going to make.

As far as 3-4 vs Tampa-2 players, I disagree. All the former DE's/current OLB's we have are Tampa-2 guys. All our former DT's/current DE's are Tampa-2 guys. None are the proper size for 3-4 NT or DE. I will give you that we did not have a true tampa-2 MLB because Poz is better suited for the outside in a 4-3 or ILB in a 3-4, but that's only one player.
The sooner you realize that top GM's and coaches don't want to be in Buffalo, because...it's Buffalo, the sooner you'll get over the disappointment when guys like Shanahan, Cowher, Parcells, etc. continually turn them down. And that won't ever change, even with a new owner. The good news is that no coach has won a SB with 2 different teams.

As for Gailey "barely" making the playoffs," the Cowboys were 10-6 his first season, which was good for 1st in the NFC East, whereas the year before they were 6-10. The 2nd season he was 8-8, as were 3 other teams, and 2 (8-8 teams) made the playoffs. That might qualify as "barely" but I'd rather barely be a millionaire than not at all. And he was successful as an OC with the Dols, hence the reason he got the GT job. With the Chefs, he had little to work with and Todd Haley didn't do any better with that group after firing him, so I don't put much stock in his time there.

Again, Ralph doesn't make the decisions outside of who to hire as GM and when to fire him, and Brandon doesn't have any input on the football side anymore. Nix is running the show, along with his Whaley, his AGM, who was signed from the Steelers, another successful club.

Spiller was the BPA, not to correct a mistake. After the top QB, OT's, DT's, LB, and S (not that I would have been happy if they drafted Berry), Spiller was the BPA. And if you listen to some, he was a top-5 talent.

I was being facetious on Lester, who has been around forever and whose role with the team was never defined. I guess that inside joke wasn't from here.

Regarding the Tampa-2, the only players I'd say were Tampa-2 guys were the 220-230# LB'ers, if even. Most everyone else had played in a traditional 4-3 for most of their college and professional careers. But guys that were formerly playing DT in the Tampa-2 will now be playing DE, and the DE's will be playing LB'er. Beyond the guys making position changes, Dwan Edwards played LDE in the 3-4, Andra Davis is a 3-4 player, and Torbor has been playing in the 3-4 the past 2 years (and they'll be playing him outside, instead of inside like the Dols did). Stroud as I said won't have a problem going from 4-3 DT to 3-4 DE, while guys like Mitchell, Maybin, Ellis, and Kelsay may prove to be better suited at LB'er. That and the NT situation bear watching.

[OpIv37]

The sooner you realize that top GM's and coaches don't want to be in Buffalo, because...it's Buffalo, the sooner you'll get over the disappointment when guys like Shanahan, Cowher, Parcells, etc. continually turn them down. And that won't ever change, even with a new owner. The good news is that no coach has won a SB with 2 different teams.

As for Gailey "barely" making the playoffs," the Cowboys were 10-6 his first season, which was good for 1st in the NFC East, whereas the year before they were 6-10. The 2nd season he was 8-8, as were 3 other teams, and 2 (8-8 teams) made the playoffs. That might qualify as "barely" but I'd rather barely be a millionaire than not at all. And he was successful as an OC with the Dols, hence the reason he got the GT job. With the Chefs, he had little to work with and Todd Haley didn't do any better with that group after firing him, so I don't put much stock in his time there.

Again, Ralph doesn't make the decisions outside of who to hire as GM and when to fire him, and Brandon doesn't have any input on the football side anymore. Nix is running the show, along with his Whaley, his AGM, who was signed from the Steelers, another successful club.

Spiller was the BPA, not to correct a mistake. After the top QB, OT's, DT's, LB, and S (not that I would have been happy if they drafted Berry), Spiller was the BPA. And if you listen to some, he was a top-5 talent.

I was being facetious on Lester, who has been around forever and whose role with the team was never defined. I guess that inside joke wasn't from here.

Regarding the Tampa-2, the only players I'd say were Tampa-2 guys were the 220-230# LB'ers, if even. Most everyone else had played in a traditional 4-3 for most of their college and professional careers. But guys that were formerly playing DT in the Tampa-2 will now be playing DE, and the DE's will be playing LB'er. Beyond the guys making position changes, Dwan Edwards played LDE in the 3-4, Andra Davis is a 3-4 player, and Torbor has been playing in the 3-4 the past 2 years (and they'll be playing him outside, instead of inside like the Dols did). Stroud as I said won't have a problem going from 4-3 DT to 3-4 DE, while guys like Mitchell, Maybin, Ellis, and Kelsay may prove to be better suited at LB'er. That and the NT situation bear watching.

In terms of results on the field, it doesn't matter if top GM's and coaches want to be in Buffalo or not. For whatever reason, we don't have them. And as long as we don't have them, we will see similar results to what we have seen in the past. It's really that simple.

If you think Ralph isn't involved in football decisions, you're simply being naive. He's a meddler- he always has been and he always will be. He doesn't trust people to make decisions with his money.

With Spiller, he may have been the BPA but we've drafted 3 RB's in first round in the past 8 drafts, and we've done NOTHING to address many of the other major holes on the team. While going BPA instead of reaching for need may be a better strategy in terms of the draft, it neglects the fact that other needs for the team have not been met.

I think Mitchell will be better in the 3-4 and it certainly can't hurt Maybin. I'm not so sure about Kelsay and Ellis, and I don't like any of the ex-DE's in coverage. I think NT and LT are the scariest positions on this team. Success or failure will largely depend on someone stepping up in those positions.

[Goobylal]

In terms of results on the field, it doesn't matter if top GM's and coaches want to be in Buffalo or not. For whatever reason, we don't have them. And as long as we don't have them, we will see similar results to what we have seen in the past. It's really that simple.
Well then, if that's what you're waiting for, you might want to follow another team because top GM's and coaches will never come to Buffalo. Maybe the Bills can get lucky with a coordinator or AGM, but name guys always were and always will be out of the picture. Unless global warming makes the South thoroughly unlivable and the North becomes like the South used to be.

If you think Ralph isn't involved in football decisions, you're simply being naive. He's a meddler- he always has been and he always will be. He doesn't trust people to make decisions with his money.
How does he meddle? Give me some examples of his meddling. I hear people say he does, but no one has any evidence.

With Spiller, he may have been the BPA but we've drafted 3 RB's in first round in the past 8 drafts, and we've done NOTHING to address many of the other major holes on the team. While going BPA instead of reaching for need may be a better strategy in terms of the draft, it neglects the fact that other needs for the team have not been met.
So you advocate doing what they've been doing for the past decade and reaching for a need? If you look at how the draft fell, no player at a position of need for the Bills was taken efore the latter part of the 1st round, except for arguably LT Anthony Davis. But there were major red flags on him.

I think Mitchell will be better in the 3-4 and it certainly can't hurt Maybin. I'm not so sure about Kelsay and Ellis, and I don't like any of the ex-DE's in coverage. I think NT and LT are the scariest positions on this team. Success or failure will largely depend on someone stepping up in those positions.
Well if you don't like Kelsay and Ellis, there are Davis, Poz, Mitchell, Maybin, and Torbor to choose from to be the 4 starting LB's, with the 5th being a backup. And I agree that NT is a position that bears watching, but Kevin Williams has shown himself to be a good player, while Troup was drafted to be a NT.

[Philagape]

Well then, if that's what you're waiting for, you might want to follow another team because top GM's and coaches will never come to Buffalo. Maybe the Bills can get lucky with a coordinator or AGM, but name guys always were and always will be out of the picture. Unless global warming makes the South thoroughly unlivable and the North becomes like the South used to be.

So you're saying the big names don't come here because of the weather? If so, that's funny because the three guys you named all coached in cold-weather cities.

[Mr. Pink]

The sooner you realize that top GM's and coaches don't want to be in Buffalo, because...it's Buffalo, the sooner you'll get over the disappointment when guys like Shanahan, Cowher, Parcells, etc. continually turn them down. And that won't ever change, even with a new owner. The good news is that no coach has won a SB with 2 different teams.



That would make sense if you know Shanahan didn't coach in Denver and now Washington, Cowher didn't coach in Pittsburgh and was a coordinator in Cleveland and Parcells wasn't in NY and NE.

Or did Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Denver, NY and NE become part of the South?

Belichick in Cleveland and NE, whoa! Holmgren in Seattle and Green Bay!

I wonder how it's possible that these northern cities can bring in top coaches.

[Goobylal]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clearer. Buffalo is an economically depressed area with a small market, bad weather, and high/state income taxes (unlike FL, TX, and WA). All of these factors conspire against it to make it unattractive to name GM's and coaches. If you listen to guys like Cowher, Shanahan, hell even Marvin Lewis, they basically said that their families would never agree to live in Buffalo. The global warming thing was tongue-in-cheek.

[OpIv37]

So you advocate doing what they've been doing for the past decade and reaching for a need? If you look at how the draft fell, no player at a position of need for the Bills was taken efore the latter part of the 1st round, except for arguably LT Anthony Davis. But there were major red flags on him.

No, I advocate FILLING HOLES. If we fill holes in FA, then we can go BPA. If we don't fill holes in FA, then we have to draft for need. But instead, what we did was draft the same position we've drafted in the 1st round 3 times in 8 years (not to mention several lower picks) while ignoring major needs in both FA and the draft.



Well if you don't like Kelsay and Ellis, there are Davis, Poz, Mitchell, Maybin, and Torbor to choose from to be the 4 starting LB's, with the 5th being a backup. And I agree that NT is a position that bears watching, but Kevin Williams has shown himself to be a good player, while Troup was drafted to be a NT.

I think you mean Kyle Williams. I agree he's a good player but I don't think he fits this D as either NT or DE. Davis, Poz and Mitchell will compete for the inside slots. Kelsay, Ellis, Maybin and Ellison will compete for the OLB spots. Not really sure where Torbor fits in. I actually don't think our ILB's are that bad. It's the OLB's that scare me- none of them rush or cover particularly well.

[Goobylal]

No, I advocate FILLING HOLES. If we fill holes in FA, then we can go BPA. If we don't fill holes in FA, then we have to draft for need. But instead, what we did was draft the same position we've drafted in the 1st round 3 times in 8 years (not to mention several lower picks) while ignoring major needs in both FA and the draft.
The Bills added a starting DE (Edwards), starting ILB (Davis), a starting RT (Green), a blocking TE (Matthews), and a LB who played in the 3-4 the past 2 years (Torbor) in FA. They filled some holes. Considering the overall weakness of the FA class, they did alright. They allegedly tried to trade for McNabb, but he didn't want to come to Buffalo (hmmmm). And there were no top-flight NT's or LT's available, or other QB's.

In the draft, after Bradford and the top-2 LT's and NT's were gone, everything else would have been a reach. The only option was doubling-up on a non-needed position. So they went with the BPA, even though they'd drafted a RB twice in the 1st round (and one of them was gone while the other is another incident away from a year-long suspension). And Spiller is an excellent receiver who could probably play that role if need be. Taken in this context, it's not as horrible a move as you make it out to be.

I think you mean Kyle Williams. I agree he's a good player but I don't think he fits this D as either NT or DE. Davis, Poz and Mitchell will compete for the inside slots. Kelsay, Ellis, Maybin and Ellison will compete for the OLB spots. Not really sure where Torbor fits in. I actually don't think our ILB's are that bad. It's the OLB's that scare me- none of them rush or cover particularly well.
Yes, Kyle Williams. And he's the same size as Kelly Gregg, Jay Ratliff, and Randy Starks (Miami's starting RDE who replaced Jason Ferguson at NT after he went down, and the defense didn't miss a beat).

At LB'er, Torbor is being played at OLB, whereas he played ILB in Miami. So from among he, Maybin, Kelsay, Ellis, and Harris, they should be able to find 2 starting OLB's.