Just some facts to think about

[Wolffman]

Post-lockout (last 5 seasons):

Sabres' regular season record: 230-136-44

2 Division Titles
2 Conference Finals Appearences
1 Presidents' Trophy
1 Vezina
1 Calder
1 Jack Adams



Pretty good for an owner and GM who are morons, huh?

[trapezeus]

onn the flip side, two conference final appearances to only tell us that they have a different core in mind. then they miss the playoffs for 2 years and have an early, uninspired exit the next year.

you are right about the goalie and good young D. We should build on them pronto to take advantage of their youth.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Just something to think about:


0 STANLEY CUPS

[Wolffman]

Just something to think about:


0 STANLEY CUPS

You can't tell me the 2006 team wasn't built to win the Cup. We were extremely unlucky that year.

[THATHURMANATOR]

You can't tell me the 2006 team wasn't built to win the Cup. We were extremely unlucky that year.
You are right about that. No GM could have prepared for 4 top dmen to go down.

[OpIv37]

You can't tell me the 2006 team wasn't built to win the Cup. We were extremely unlucky that year.

yeah, and that was 2006.

Unfortunately, it's 2010. There were some rule changes that came out of the lockout, and the game adapted accordingly. The Sabres never did. If the game was still played like it was in 2006, this team would have a legit shot of winning the cup. But the Sabres haven't shown that ability to change with the times.

So, expect more of the same. Miller may carry us to a consolation prize or two that you can add to your list, but the Sabres will be playing golf while the teams that can adjust compete for hockey's ultimate prize.

Hooray mediocrity! It's the Buffalo way!

[ddaryl]

Post-lockout (last 5 seasons):

Sabres' regular season record: 230-136-44

2 Division Titles
2 Conference Finals Appearences
1 Presidents' Trophy
1 Vezina
1 Calder
1 Jack Adams



Pretty good for an owner and GM who are morons, huh?


why did they dismantle a team that was on the cusp of winning it all.... WHY????

and now we have the typical soft Sabre teams of years past and can only hope they somehow learn to play tough consistent hockey...

I'm pissed off at this franchise for not ever doing anything to get Hasek O help, and then dismantling a team that could of won it all after the lockout.

Nope until we win a championship I'm not very happy with Quinn or Tom G... Reiger I'm 50/50 on

[ddaryl]

You can't tell me the 2006 team wasn't built to win the Cup. We were extremely unlucky that year.

and they dismanlted that team instead of preserving it for another run... that's ******ation at its finest. They may have parted with a player but they didn't have to let both Drury and Briere walk...

this team has been uninspiring ever since.

[THATHURMANATOR]

why did they dismantle a team that was on the cusp of winning it all.... WHY????

and now we have the typical soft Sabre teams of years past and can only hope they somehow learn to play tough consistent hockey...

I'm pissed off at this franchise for not ever doing anything to get Hasek O help, and then dismantling a team that could of won it all after the lockout.

Nope until we win a championship I'm not very happy with Quinn or Tom G... Reiger I'm 50/50 on
They had a poor understanding of the direction Free Agency was taking league wide.

[ddaryl]

They had a poor understanding of the direction Free Agency was taking league wide.

I'll agree to that....and look at us now...

[Wolffman]

and they dismanlted that team instead of preserving it for another run... that's ******ation at its finest. They may have parted with a player but they didn't have to let both Drury and Briere walk...

this team has been uninspiring ever since.

They tried their best to keep Drury. We offered him the same contract he got in NY. He just decided to go there.

Briere's contract was absurd. No way were we going to give him that much money. He wasn't, and still isn't, worth it.

[RockStar36]

They "dismantled" because they knew if they handed out money to Drury and Briere, there would be less money available for someone like Miller, who is far more important.

Please don't bring up Campbell. Chicago gave out one of the worst contracts in NHL history to that guy. We'd all be livid if the Sabres paid him what he's getting now.

[SabreEleven]

They "dismantled" because they knew if they handed out money to Drury and Briere, there would be less money available for someone like Miller, who is far more important.

Please don't bring up Campbell. Chicago gave out one of the worst contracts in NHL history to that guy. We'd all be livid if the Sabres paid him what he's getting now.

I'd like to be as livid as Chicago is about right now.

[Nighthawk]

You are right about that. No GM could have prepared for 4 top dmen to go down.

Yes and no...everybody and I mean, EVERYBODY, but Darcy was screaming for the Sabres to add more veteran defensive help that year at the trade deadline. Oh, and he f**ked that up too.

[trapezeus]

while gm couldn't have planned for 4 defensemen to go down, he probably couldn't have predicted the heart and tenacity that team played with in the playoffs.

Even this year could be looked at as a huge unlucky streak. if we got past the first round, we were the top seeded team the rest of the way. if we really played like a number 3 team, we would have sailed to the stanley cup. that's a huge what-if, but it's the same logic we apply when we say, "if we got past the hurricans,we would have toasted the oilers."

[ddaryl]

They tried their best to keep Drury. We offered him the same contract he got in NY. He just decided to go there.

Briere's contract was absurd. No way were we going to give him that much money. He wasn't, and still isn't, worth it.

They choose to leave even when the money is the same.

it doesn't matter... I'm PO"d that we have done NOTHING to replace these players... Notta ZIP ZILCH.... and we're the same soft ass team we w're for a long time before the lockout...

I have no fiath in this organization and the FA's and tradeposibilities are almost dried up... PATHETIC FO IMO

[RockStar36]

I'd like to be as livid as Chicago is about right now.

They won the Cup despite Campbell. You really think he was an important piece?

If you want to model the Chicago way, have Buffalo tank for years on end and stock pile #1 picks, then win the Cup, then completely dismantle. It's called the Florida Marlins strategy.

[Nighthawk]

They won the Cup despite Campbell. You really think he was an important piece?

If you want to model the Chicago way, have Buffalo tank for years on end and stock pile #1 picks, then win the Cup, then completely dismantle. It's called the Florida Marlins strategy.

See, the point you keep missing is that the organization showed all of the players on that team and in the league, that they are willing to do whatever it takes to win a championship....that winning a championship was the most important thing to them as an organization. This matters and this is not how this organization is viewed...and definitely not how they operate.

[Wolffman]

They choose to leave even when the money is the same.

it doesn't matter... I'm PO"d that we have done NOTHING to replace these players... Notta ZIP ZILCH.... and we're the same soft ass team we w're for a long time before the lockout...

I have no fiath in this organization and the FA's and tradeposibilities are almost dried up... PATHETIC FO IMO

There are actually some very good FAs available and you can't even say what trade possibilities could be.

The management was banking on guys like Roy, Stafford, Pominville, Connolly to step up and replace Drury and Briere. Obviously this hasn't panned out. But can you blame them? Roy had a great 2007 season (32 goals, 81 points) and Pominville had a great 2006 season (34 goals). Stafford had 20 goals in 2008. Conolly always showed flashes of brilliance between injuries.

[Nighthawk]

There are actually some very good FAs available and you can't even say what trade possibilities could be.

The management was banking on guys like Roy, Stafford, Pominville, Connolly to step up and replace Drury and Briere. Obviously this hasn't panned out. But can you blame them? Roy had a great 2007 season (32 goals, 81 points) and Pominville had a great 2006 season (34 goals). Stafford had 20 goals in 2008. Conolly always showed flashes of brilliance between injuries.

Yes, I can...I said they wouldn't replace those two with what is on the roster. If it is so obvious to hockey fans, then why can't our genious FO see it? This is why so many fans get pissed off.

[OpIv37]

There are actually some very good FAs available and you can't even say what trade possibilities could be.

The management was banking on guys like Roy, Stafford, Pominville, Connolly to step up and replace Drury and Briere. Obviously this hasn't panned out. But can you blame them? Roy had a great 2007 season (32 goals, 81 points) and Pominville had a great 2006 season (34 goals). Stafford had 20 goals in 2008. Conolly always showed flashes of brilliance between injuries.

Hell yes- I can and do blame them. They get paid a ton of money to get this **** right. There were people from national hockey media right down to posters on this board who predicted this outcome. And none of them have the time or resources to evaluate players that the Sabres' FO does.

Look what teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh and Washington have done with their personnel choices over the same time frame. They got it right, we got it wrong- that's why Chicago and Pitt have Cups and Washington will have one in the near future, and we won't.

[chernobylwraiths]

They "dismantled" because they knew if they handed out money to Drury and Briere, there would be less money available for someone like Miller, who is far more important.

You CAN'T use that argument, especially considering they offered to give Drury the same contract he signed with the Rangers.

[Wolffman]

Yes, I can...I said they wouldn't replace those two with what is on the roster. If it is so obvious to hockey fans, then why can't our genious FO see it? This is why so many fans get pissed off.

Your honestly telling me that you thought Roy (32 goals), Pominville (34 goals) and Vanek (43 goals) couldn't replace Drury (37 goals) and Briere (32 goals)?

[Nighthawk]

Your honestly telling me that you thought Roy (32 goals), Pominville (34 goals) and Vanek (43 goals) couldn't replace Drury (37 goals) and Briere (32 goals)?

Yes...none of them are at the level of Briere or Drury and was very easy for me to see it. If you couldn't...then you must be part of the Sabres FO.

[Wolffman]

Yes...none of them are at the level of Briere or Drury and was very easy for me to see it. If you couldn't...then you must be part of the Sabres FO.

Are you ****ing kidding me? They weren't at their level? They're 10 years younger! None of them had been in the NHL for more than 3 years. Any reasonable person expected them to keep similar numbers, if not improve, as they gained more experience in the NHL.

[OpIv37]

Your honestly telling me that you thought Roy (32 goals), Pominville (34 goals) and Vanek (43 goals) couldn't replace Drury (37 goals) and Briere (32 goals)?

Here's the problem: We had all 5 of those guys at the same time.

So, Roy, Pominville and Vanek, plus whoever they found to replace Drury and Briere, would have to come up with 69 Goals ABOVE those numbers to equal their production.

They lost two 30+ goal scorers and added.... ZERO 30+ goal scorers.

[chernobylwraiths]

Your honestly telling me that you thought Roy (32 goals), Pominville (34 goals) and Vanek (43 goals) couldn't replace Drury (37 goals) and Briere (32 goals)?

It has a lot to do with heart and determination. Briere and Drury have loads of it while the other three don't seem to. Look how well Briere and Drury play in the playoffs compared to the other three.

[Nighthawk]

Are you ****ing kidding me? They weren't at their level? They're 10 years younger! None of them had been in the NHL for more than 3 years. Any reasonable person expected them to keep similar numbers, if not improve, as they gained more experience in the NHL.

Trust me...I could tell...and you need only ask any poster on this board and they'd tell you that's how I felt.

[RockStar36]

Hell yes- I can and do blame them. They get paid a ton of money to get this **** right. There were people from national hockey media right down to posters on this board who predicted this outcome. And none of them have the time or resources to evaluate players that the Sabres' FO does.

Look what teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh and Washington have done with their personnel choices over the same time frame. They got it right, we got it wrong- that's why Chicago and Pitt have Cups and Washington will have one in the near future, and we won't.

What has Washington done right?

If anything, they are bigger failures than the Sabres.

[Nighthawk]

It has a lot to do with heart and determination. Briere and Drury have loads of it while the other three don't seem to. Look how well Briere and Drury play in the playoffs compared to the other three.

Exactly...I guess I should've been more straightforward for him, since he obviously doesn't get what makes a good player in the NHL.

[Nighthawk]

What has Washington done right?

If anything, they are bigger failures than the Sabres.

They have resigned their top players...they have already proven to be smarter then the Sabres.

[OpIv37]

Are you ****ing kidding me? They weren't at their level? They're 10 years younger! None of them had been in the NHL for more than 3 years. Any reasonable person expected them to keep similar numbers, if not improve, as they gained more experience in the NHL.

that's an overly simplistic analysis. When Drury and Briere left, Roy, Pominville and Vanek a) had to play against other teams' first lines instead of 2nd or 3rd lines, and b) lost the advantage of having guys like Drury and Briere playing next to them and drawing defenders. If the Sabres had any ability to evaluate talent, they would have at least suspected that it wouldn't work.

[chernobylwraiths]

Plus the leadership those guys brought was lost. Notice how the first person the whole team wanted as captain was Rivet, a guy just brought on the roster and NOT Roy, Pomminville or Vanek? A guy nobody on the team had ever played with? That is real telling of how the team views those guys as leaders.

[Wolffman]

Here's the problem: We had all 5 of those guys at the same time.

So, Roy, Pominville and Vanek, plus whoever they found to replace Drury and Briere, would have to come up with 69 Goals ABOVE those numbers to equal their production.

They lost two 30+ goal scorers and added.... ZERO 30+ goal scorers.

Truth be told, if those 3 guys duplicated their 2006/2007 numbers and were playing at that same level, we would have made a deep run in the playoffs.

[OpIv37]

What has Washington done right?

If anything, they are bigger failures than the Sabres.

they had an epic failure in the playoffs this year. But they also trucked the EC all season long, and built a team from one of the worst in the NHL to one of the best over a period of time where the Sabres regressed.

[Wolffman]

that's an overly simplistic analysis. When Drury and Briere left, Roy, Pominville and Vanek a) had to play against other teams' first lines instead of 2nd or 3rd lines, and b) lost the advantage of having guys like Drury and Briere playing next to them and drawing defenders. If the Sabres had any ability to evaluate talent, they would have at least suspected that it wouldn't work.

I agree. And that's where the management expected Conolly and Stafford to come in. Oops.

[OpIv37]

Truth be told, if those 3 guys duplicated their 2006/2007 numbers and were playing at that same level, we would have made a deep run in the playoffs.

but they are incapable of duplicating those numbers without people like Drury and Briere to help them.

[OpIv37]

I agree. And that's where the management expected Conolly and Stafford to come in. Oops.

and that's where the criticism of the FO comes in. They clearly missed on those guys, amongst others.

[Nighthawk]

Truth be told, if those 3 guys duplicated their 2006/2007 numbers and were playing at that same level, we would have made a deep run in the playoffs.

Ha, ha...now that is funny and if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle!

[Wolffman]

but they are incapable of duplicating those numbers without people like Drury and Briere to help them.

Right, see my last post about Conolly and Stafford.

[chernobylwraiths]

Truth be told, if those 3 guys duplicated their 2006/2007 numbers and were playing at that same level, we would have made a deep run in the playoffs.

Truth be told, they didn't.

As a matter of fact, they have only made the playoffs once with those players since B's and D's departure, and they got beat in the first round.

[RockStar36]

they had an epic failure in the playoffs this year. But they also trucked the EC all season long, and built a team from one of the worst in the NHL to one of the best over a period of time where the Sabres regressed.

They trucked the EC. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the division they play in. In addition to that, regular season means nothing, right? I mean, that's what I've been told the past 2 days.

Has Washington even made it a conference finals yet? Pretty impressive seeing they have the best player in the league.

If they were the Sabres you'd have a different view on them for sure.

[Wolffman]

and that's where the criticism of the FO comes in. They clearly missed on those guys, amongst others.

Did they miss on the guys? Or did the guys underachieve?

In sports in general, you can't always blame GMs for players not paning out. A lot of blame has to go to the player who never reached his potential. Not all the blame, as the GM is still at fault, but most of the blame.

[chernobylwraiths]

Right, see my last post about Conolly and Stafford.

Right. Connolly, a guy given a raise for showing practically nothing, and Stafford, a guy who has regressed since his first two years.

[OpIv37]

They trucked the EC. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the division they play in. In addition to that, regular season means nothing, right? I mean, that's what I've been told the past 2 days.

Has Washington even made it a conference finals yet? Pretty impressive seeing they have the best player in the league.

If they were the Sabres you'd have a different view on them for sure.

You're criticizing the Caps but they made the post-season in the two years that the Sabres didn't, and they won the President's trophy this year before losing in the same round as the Sabres this past season. So, over the last 3 years, they've done a lot better than the Sabres.

If I were a Caps fan, I'd be upset that they haven't done anything to address their flaws this off-season as well. But the fact remains that right now, they are still in better shape than the Sabres.

[Nighthawk]

Did they miss on the guys? Or did the guys underachieve?

In sports in general, you can't always blame GMs for players not paning out. A lot of blame has to go to the player who never reached his potential. Not all the blame, as the GM is still at fault, but most of the blame.

So, by your reasoning, we should just keep letting the player underachieve and hold nobody accountable? What? You don't think it's the players who should be traded, you don't think management is at fault and you don't think it's the coach's fault? :wtf:

[Wolffman]

So, by your reasoning, we should just keep letting the player underachieve and hold nobody accountable? What? You don't think it's the players who should be traded, you don't think management is at fault and you don't think it's the coach's fault? :wtf:

Never once did I mention the coach.

I'm saying that when a player shows that he can be great and the team makes moves to depend on this player and he falls on his face, it's not always the team's fault fully. Some blame has to go on the player.

[OpIv37]

Did they miss on the guys? Or did the guys underachieve?

In sports in general, you can't always blame GMs for players not paning out. A lot of blame has to go to the player who never reached his potential. Not all the blame, as the GM is still at fault, but most of the blame.

they missed.

There are factors that suggest a player will underachieve. Some FO's are able to see it, some aren't. Or maybe they are able to see it but don't care because the price is right. Either way, the FO deserves blame.

And you are correct in that sometimes the failure is on the player and not the GM, but the Sabres have had too many misses lately to blame it all on players.

[chernobylwraiths]

Did they miss on the guys? Or did the guys underachieve?

In sports in general, you can't always blame GMs for players not paning out. A lot of blame has to go to the player who never reached his potential. Not all the blame, as the GM is still at fault, but most of the blame.

Connolly has been what he always has been, so they missed. Stafford underachieved, but there was evidence that was all they were going to get from him. Lindy had benched him a few times in the last couple years and comments made by him in interviews showed that he understand why he was benched. By the way, if you draft a player, sign a player or trade for a player and he doesn't pan out (especially the last two) then it is your fault for getting that player.

[RockStar36]

You're criticizing the Caps but they made the post-season in the two years that the Sabres didn't, and they won the President's trophy this year before losing in the same round as the Sabres this past season. So, over the last 3 years, they've done a lot better than the Sabres.

If I were a Caps fan, I'd be upset that they haven't done anything to address their flaws this off-season as well. But the fact remains that right now, they are still in better shape than the Sabres.

I'm criticizing the Caps because from what I've been told in the past two days, regular season success means nothing if you don't win a Cup.

In the past 5 years, the Sabres have been more successful than Washington.

Are they in better shape right now? I doubt it. They do have Ovechkin which gives them way more scoring, but their goaltending is an epic pile of fail.

[trapezeus]

ruff is kind of getting a free pass on this. i like himi as a coach and i think we could do worse. but he seems to regularly put people in his dog house, yet he still succeeds, but scorers disappear when they play for him. it's odd. stafford might be good but over coached. connolly has lost his stick handling gifts. the concussions are catching up.

[chernobylwraiths]

ruff is kind of getting a free pass on this. i like himi as a coach and i think we could do worse. but he seems to regularly put people in his dog house, yet he still succeeds, but scorers disappear when they play for him. it's odd. stafford might be good but over coached. connolly has lost his stick handling gifts. the concussions are catching up.

I thought the same thing too until the year after the lockout. In that year and the next, the Sabres offense was very good. I think Lindy expects people to play a certain style, and it works when they do. This is somewhat complicated by the fact that after the lockout, they actually called the obstruction penalties and in the following years, got more and more lax on calling them. Now, hockey is about where it was before the lockout in all aspects. Tons of obstruction, escalating salaries and still no accountability for dirty play and players not respecting each other.

Our only real chance at a Cup came in the year following the lockout since the rules were being called and a more finesse team could still win, though it still needed some toughness. Say what you want about luck or whatever, but that team got beat because of lack of toughness. Sure there were freak injuries and all, but there was still the underlying reason that teams could run our players with little to no retribution.

That has changed little in the following years. It was nice to get Montadour and Grier last year. Their play helped win this team a division title, but it wasn't enough in the playoffs. IMO, Grier was our best forward in the playoffs. We need more of that kind of play from our leaders and our scorers. They can not hang back and hope to get a puck to come to them.

All this means is that the Sabres management needs to get players who have some leadership, grit and know what it takes or at least will do whatever it takes to win. It also means that they will have to pay dearly to get that player. That usually means that it won't happen. IMO, the ONLY way to turn this team into a real winner will be through trade.

[chernobylwraiths]

I've said it before about Ruff and I'll say it again. If Ruff is on board with Darcy's decisions regarding player acquisitions and such, then I think the whole front office and management should be canned. I know it won't happen considering the Sabres just one the division, but I don't believe the team will go far at all with their two best players being Miller and Myers. And I think they have to wait till next year to lock Myers up long term.

[OpIv37]

ruff is kind of getting a free pass on this. i like himi as a coach and i think we could do worse. but he seems to regularly put people in his dog house, yet he still succeeds, but scorers disappear when they play for him. it's odd. stafford might be good but over coached. connolly has lost his stick handling gifts. the concussions are catching up.

I'm unsure what to think about Ruff. It's tough to evaluate him because Reiger and Quinn keep giving him a knife and sending him to a gun fight, then when he gets there, it turns out the knife is just a rubber training knife. So he may be part of the problem, or he may be hamstrung by the idiots working above him.

[RockStar36]

I can see Ruff's time ending shortly.

I like the guy as a coach but after this many years, something has to give.