Billy Shaw says the Bills are staying in Buffalo

[HHURRICANE]

I flew up from Atlanta to see the nightmare on Abbott St. Anyway I had a chance to talk to Billy Shaw who was up for the newest wall of fame inductee.

He confirmed that a deal is in play with Jim Kelly and an ownership team to keep the team in Buffalo.

Now this guy lives in Toccoa, GA so I'm not sure how much inside info this guy has considering he played for the team the year I was born but I would think that he talks to enough guys around the team that his info would be semi-reliable.

He also said that this is the reason that Kelly is not as outspoken about the team and it's moves because he wants to be respectful to Wilson.

Take this info for what it is worth.

[Beebe's Kid]

I'll believe it because I want to. If I could stop feeling like they are going to suck out, then pack the ****ing vans, I would be a little more patient.

[wmoz11]

Mario Lemieux saved my Penguins, maybe Jim Kelly will save my Bills!

He should come back to play just like Mario did.

[Michael82]

I still have faith. :pray:

[OpIv37]

I want this to be true so bad but there's not enough concrete information there to believe it.

Plus there is one thing that makes me really skeptical: WTF is Wilson waiting for? He could croak at any second, plus the fans are sick of his nonsense. If a deal is imminent, there is no reason to put it off.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

People are waiting to see if he croaks before the estate tax expires, that's my best guess. Why spend full dollar when you can get the same thing a lot cheaper at an estate auction?

[Dr. Lecter]

I want this to be true so bad but there's not enough concrete information there to believe it.

Plus there is one thing that makes me really skeptical: WTF is Wilson waiting for? He could croak at any second, plus the fans are sick of his nonsense. If a deal is imminent, there is no reason to put it off.


It could be for tax reasons that neither of us understand.

For example, he could leave the team to his wife (no estate tax) who then sells it to the new group (and maybe even keeping partial ownership). She can then use the proceeds of the sale to pay the capital gains tax. But the deal could be structured in annual payments. Which would not be good to but directly from Ralph since he could die in the middle of the payments.


I am not saying that is the case - but there might be reasons to let the team be passed on through his death and then sold.

[Dr. Lecter]

People are waiting to see if he croaks before the estate tax expires, that's my best guess. Why spend full dollar when you can get the same thing a lot cheaper at an estate auction?
Because it is an auction and somebody could drive the price up.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Plus there is one thing that makes me really skeptical: WTF is Wilson waiting for? He could croak at any second, plus the fans are sick of his nonsense. If a deal is imminent, there is no reason to put it off.
You're assuming Ralph is being rational, which is the opposite of the truth. He's the most stubborn old fart ever.

I too hope this is true. I want to believe it so badly. Imagine a team without a adversely meddling owner and bring in football people and let them do football things. What a concept.

[SeatownBillsFan21]

I will believe it when i see it.

[HHURRICANE]

I want this to be true so bad but there's not enough concrete information there to believe it.

Plus there is one thing that makes me really skeptical: WTF is Wilson waiting for? He could croak at any second, plus the fans are sick of his nonsense. If a deal is imminent, there is no reason to put it off.

I heard this right from Billy Shaw and I'm skeptical. Jim Kelly could be talking crap while he's picking up girls for all I know.

As far as why not now I could give you a thousand reasons. Estate issues, ego, etc. Maybe he feels like it keeps him young. Who knows?

[WeAreArthurMoates]

The reason he hasn't sold it cause it's been his baby for 50 years and wants to see a superbowl. Unfortuntaly he's too old for that and has no idea how to run a team.

[bigbub2352]

i also seen a Donald Trump rumor out there hope he is part of the buying team Kelly might have together...he would be a ice swift kick in the ass this organization needs

[trapezeus]

Ralph likes being the only owner to the team. there are only a few guys who have been able to do this. If he made it through the 70's and 80's, he sure as hell isn't giving up with a couple minutes remaining on the clock and with $50MM in net profit coming in annually. it makes sense why he wouldn't sell.

i am just having a tough time understanding why the owneres will approve a below market deal and/or a lack of new stadium. Especiallyt he jones' who hate the revenue sharing agreement and think that luxury box revenue is a stable stream.

[SABURZFAN]

I flew up from Atlanta to see the nightmare on Abbott St. Anyway I had a chance to talk to Billy Shaw who was up for the newest wall of fame inductee.

He confirmed that a deal is in play with Jim Kelly and an ownership team to keep the team in Buffalo.

Now this guy lives in Toccoa, GA so I'm not sure how much inside info this guy has considering he played for the team the year I was born but I would think that he talks to enough guys around the team that his info would be semi-reliable.

He also said that this is the reason that Kelly is not as outspoken about the team and it's moves because he wants to be respectful to Wilson.

Take this info for what it is worth.


i'll have to talk with the team chef to confirm this.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I almost don't even care anymore. I just wish they would put us out of our misery one way or another. I can't take this anymore.

[HHURRICANE]

i'll have to talk with the team chef to confirm this.

He could know more than Billy Shaw.

The only reason that it was even worth posting is that this guy doesn't seem like the kind of guy that needs to push rumors. He's a Mississippi guy that played at Georgia Tech and honestly I got the impression that he'd rather sit on his porch with his dog. He was matter-of-factly about the contiogency plan so I was more inclined to take it at face value.

[Jan Reimers]

I billieve in Billy.

[SabreEleven]

It could be for tax reasons that neither of us understand.

For example, he could leave the team to his wife (no estate tax) who then sells it to the new group (and maybe even keeping partial ownership). She can then use the proceeds of the sale to pay the capital gains tax. But the deal could be structured in annual payments. Which would not be good to but directly from Ralph since he could die in the middle of the payments.


I am not saying that is the case - but there might be reasons to let the team be passed on through his death and then sold.

Now you sound like Lawyer Lecter

[YardRat]

When Ralph kicks off, he will prove one final time that he's not as dumb as many would like to think.

[RoscoeMagic]

I wonder if Billy Buffalo has any inside info :scratch:

[El Guapo]

I want this to be true so bad but there's not enough concrete information there to believe it.

Plus there is one thing that makes me really skeptical: WTF is Wilson waiting for? He could croak at any second, plus the fans are sick of his nonsense. If a deal is imminent, there is no reason to put it off.

Yes, there is a reason to put it off, and it is a big reason -- taxes. Capital gains taxes. If he sells today, he pays capital gains taxes. His "net profit" would be the selling price, less his basis, which I think was $50,000 when he bought the team. Assuming he could get $750 million, he would pay long term capital gains taxes on $749,950,000. He would hand the feds a check for $112,492,500, leaving him with $637,507,500.

Now, if he were to pass this year, that money could pass to his heirs tax free. However, it's already October 4th, and the year is quickly passing (no pun intended). Why does that matter? The estate tax returns to all its glory as of January 1, 2011. That's a huge tax for someone of his wealth. Even say his only assets are what's left after capital gains taxes, that amount would be $350,079,125. That would leave his heirs with $287,428,375.

So, if he waits until he passes, and his estate sells the team to pay the estate taxes, it would look like this:

$750,000,000 -- purchase price
$411,950,000 -- taxes
$338,050,000 -- left to his heirs

That is $50,621,625 difference, compared to if he sells now.

It doesn't matter how rich he is; it just does not make financial sense to sell the team now. 50 million bucks is worth not selling now to allay the fears of the fans.

I want them to stay just as much as anyone, but I understand why it is being done this way.

[Beebe's Kid]

The other owner's wouldn't have to approve a sale it Ralph's wife still had an interest in the team, right?

In terms about why he wouldn't sell the team...

It's kind of a big part of his life, and while the ultra-classy fan wishes death on the man on an hourly basis, sometimes dealing with your own mortality is a little trickier.

It is funny that people think he is trying to **** them by keeping a team that he started 50 years ago...most of the people that are so convinced of this theory weren't even alive, and 99.999% of them will never know what it is like to own an NFL Franchise. Yet, they have all kinds of advice for Ralph, while they type on their mother's laptop, while enjoying their 4th bowl of Fruit Loops for the day.

I will bet that Ralph extended Kelsay, and he did it because he is struggling with the fact that the end is near. He wanted to do something nice for one of the nice guys.

I like that people are demanding he show up at a press conference to explain what Chan and Buddy have explained 1,000x already, that the team is rebuilding. I thought it ironic that it was Mike Schopp that was the voice of reason on the presser idea...he brought up that out of respect for a man that has lived almost 92 years, that you can't demand a press conference, but the 23 year old, unemployed, message board guru, who just woke up form a night of debauchery, is adamant that "you owe" him...that is after he calls you a "cheap old bastard," and wishes death on you.

[Beebe's Kid]

Yes, there is a reason to put it off, and it is a big reason -- taxes. Capital gains taxes. If he sells today, he pays capital gains taxes. His "net profit" would be the selling price, less his basis, which I think was $50,000 when he bought the team. Assuming he could get $750 million, he would pay long term capital gains taxes on $749,950,000. He would hand the feds a check for $112,492,500, leaving him with $637,507,500.

Now, if he were to pass this year, that money could pass to his heirs tax free. However, it's already October 4th, and the year is quickly passing (no pun intended). Why does that matter? The estate tax returns to all its glory as of January 1, 2011. That's a huge tax for someone of his wealth. Even say his only assets are what's left after capital gains taxes, that amount would be $350,079,125. That would leave his heirs with $287,428,375.

So, if he waits until he passes, and his estate sells the team to pay the estate taxes, it would look like this:

$750,000,000 -- purchase price
$411,950,000 -- taxes
$338,050,000 -- left to his heirs

That is $50,621,625 difference, compared to if he sells now.

It doesn't matter how rich he is; it just does not make financial sense to sell the team now. 50 million bucks is worth not selling now to allay the fears of the fans.

I want them to stay just as much as anyone, but I understand why it is being done this way.

Wow. Thanks. That puts it into perspective.

Although, according to message boards, Ralph just sits around and drools all day, so he wouldn't understand this anyway, right? He is 91 which automatically means he's senile...

Just a quick glance...and with that savings, we need to get that nice Kelsay boy on the phone and give him another 4 years!

[Akhippo]

Well if this team is sold on perceived value he better sell now. It is falling fast.

This team feels like Penn State. Ran by an over the hill man in charge who seems to be dragging the org./program down. Your stuck in nuetral until there is a regime change. Your losing out on innovative young talent,both in coaching and talent that can be brought in with a new eager owner.

[YardRat]

Yes, there is a reason to put it off, and it is a big reason -- taxes. Capital gains taxes. If he sells today, he pays capital gains taxes. His "net profit" would be the selling price, less his basis, which I think was $50,000 when he bought the team. Assuming he could get $750 million, he would pay long term capital gains taxes on $749,950,000. He would hand the feds a check for $112,492,500, leaving him with $637,507,500.

Now, if he were to pass this year, that money could pass to his heirs tax free. However, it's already October 4th, and the year is quickly passing (no pun intended). Why does that matter? The estate tax returns to all its glory as of January 1, 2011. That's a huge tax for someone of his wealth. Even say his only assets are what's left after capital gains taxes, that amount would be $350,079,125. That would leave his heirs with $287,428,375.

So, if he waits until he passes, and his estate sells the team to pay the estate taxes, it would look like this:

$750,000,000 -- purchase price
$411,950,000 -- taxes
$338,050,000 -- left to his heirs

That is $50,621,625 difference, compared to if he sells now.

It doesn't matter how rich he is; it just does not make financial sense to sell the team now. 50 million bucks is worth not selling now to allay the fears of the fans.

I want them to stay just as much as anyone, but I understand why it is being done this way.

I'm willing to bet that Ralph knows this scenario, with the exact dollar amounts at stake, like the back of his hand and if he does consider selling early the asking price goes up to cover the difference.

I'd also wager that it's more than likely that the plan has already been in place, and they are waiting for the best-case circumstances to pull the trigger.

[DynaPaul]

i also seen a Donald Trump rumor out there hope he is part of the buying team Kelly might have together...he would be a ice swift kick in the ass this organization needs

Oh God... not him. He'll rename the Ralph "Trump Stadium" and then run the Bills into the ground. Trump is NOT a good businessman despite the mythos he's created for himself.

[Ebenezer]

Ralph will not sell in his life time because he wants to own the Bills until his death - he has that right.

More disturbing was a discussion by Jerry Sullivan on WGR this morning. FWIW, he was saying that he had a discussion with writers from NYC at the game yesterday. There are those in the high league office that don't believe the Bills are a viable franchise (viable as in 2010 definition: not able to make super boat loads of money) and have no problem with the team moving when RW dies - in fact, he made it sound as if they are inviting the team to move.

[billz83]

i think wilson is going to sell this team within the next year...

[BidsJr]

Well if this team is sold on perceived value he better sell now. It is falling fast.

This team feels like Penn State. Ran by an over the hill man in charge who seems to be dragging the org./program down. Your stuck in nuetral until there is a regime change. Your losing out on innovative young talent,both in coaching and talent that can be brought in with a new eager owner.



LoL Go Hawkeyes!

[jamze132]

I wonder if Billy Buffalo has any inside info :scratch:
or Maybe Johnny Chimpo or Jerry Girafe...

[dasaybz]

It could be for tax reasons that neither of us understand.

For example, he could leave the team to his wife (no estate tax) who then sells it to the new group (and maybe even keeping partial ownership). She can then use the proceeds of the sale to pay the capital gains tax. But the deal could be structured in annual payments. Which would not be good to but directly from Ralph since he could die in the middle of the payments.


I am not saying that is the case - but there might be reasons to let the team be passed on through his death and then sold.

Like you even have a clue what you're talking about.

My dog is smarter than you brah.

;)

[BillyT92679]

Ralph will not sell in his life time because he wants to own the Bills until his death - he has that right.

More disturbing was a discussion by Jerry Sullivan on WGR this morning. FWIW, he was saying that he had a discussion with writers from NYC at the game yesterday. There are those in the high league office that don't believe the Bills are a viable franchise (viable as in 2010 definition: not able to make super boat loads of money) and have no problem with the team moving when RW dies - in fact, he made it sound as if they are inviting the team to move.
Of course there are high-level people in the league office who believe that... it takes little effort to look at demography and economics of regions. The death of football in Buffalo has been predicted since before Rich Stadium was built. I think if there is a plan in place to keep the team here that makes economic sense, the franchise will stay. The Chargers and Vikings are already one foot out the door. The Jags have that ridiculous lease they have, but I am sure Weaver will do whatever he can to get out of it once the blackouts return.

[streetkings01]

Because it is an auction and somebody could drive the price up.Would the NFL allow a team to be auctioned off? I cant see them doing that.

[Pinkerton Security]

I have also heard something similar. My cousin is a marketing manager in Rochester-area and spoke with Jimbo's brother, and his brother openly admitted that Jim was at the very least trying to get a group of investors together to potentially buy the Bills. whether this ever happens obviously remains to be seen, but it does seem to be fairly reasonable that this is a possibility.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

i am just having a tough time understanding why the owneres will approve a below market deal and/or a lack of new stadium. Especiallyt he jones' who hate the revenue sharing agreement and think that luxury box revenue is a stable stream.
As Al Davis showed in the 1980s, the owners may not have a choice in the matter.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

Would the NFL allow a team to be auctioned off? I cant see them doing that.
Considering Ralph has stated that is his plan for the team, if the league objected to it someone would've said something by now.

[billsfanryan]

Yes, there is a reason to put it off, and it is a big reason -- taxes. Capital gains taxes. If he sells today, he pays capital gains taxes. His "net profit" would be the selling price, less his basis, which I think was $50,000 when he bought the team. Assuming he could get $750 million, he would pay long term capital gains taxes on $749,950,000. He would hand the feds a check for $112,492,500, leaving him with $637,507,500.

Now, if he were to pass this year, that money could pass to his heirs tax free. However, it's already October 4th, and the year is quickly passing (no pun intended). Why does that matter? The estate tax returns to all its glory as of January 1, 2011. That's a huge tax for someone of his wealth. Even say his only assets are what's left after capital gains taxes, that amount would be $350,079,125. That would leave his heirs with $287,428,375.

So, if he waits until he passes, and his estate sells the team to pay the estate taxes, it would look like this:

$750,000,000 -- purchase price
$411,950,000 -- taxes
$338,050,000 -- left to his heirs

That is $50,621,625 difference, compared to if he sells now.

It doesn't matter how rich he is; it just does not make financial sense to sell the team now. 50 million bucks is worth not selling now to allay the fears of the fans.

I want them to stay just as much as anyone, but I understand why it is being done this way.

You didn't even figure in State Estate taxes too. I'm not sure if he would be subject to New York or Michigan or both..

[El Guapo]

You didn't even figure in State Estate taxes too. I'm not sure if he would be subject to New York or Michigan or both..

Yeah, I just went from the federal angle. It could be much worse. I do not know the law in New York or Michigan. If he is a resident of Michigan, then their law would apply to his estate.

[Ground Chuck]

I want this to be true so bad but there's not enough concrete information there to believe it.

Plus there is one thing that makes me really skeptical: WTF is Wilson waiting for? He could croak at any second, plus the fans are sick of his nonsense. If a deal is imminent, there is no reason to put it off.

Ralph is waiting to see how the tax laws shake out. There is no estate tax until the end of the year so it does not make sense to sell any of the team. Maybe next year, if the estate tax comes back, it will be worth his while to sell a minority interest and start the transition.

[Mr. Pink]

or Maybe Johnny Chimpo or Jerry Girafe...


Artie Alligator?

[trapezeus]

well does donald Trump's "possible" presidential run take him out of the running of the potential kelly group? hopefully he wasn't the guy. if he was, "a presidential run" as unlikely as it maybe wouldn't be on his radar.

[PromoTheRobot]

Billy Shaw is already on the Wall. I smell poo.

PTR

[starrymessenger]

Ralph Wilson paid little ($50,000) for a franchise worth at least 3/4 of a Bn. Any purchaser paying fair value is going to have to finance the acquisition price which means lots of interest expense and much higher ticket prices. The dedicated fanbase is a strong positive for the Bills staying in Buffalo, but inevitably higher ticket prices may be a strong disincentive if the ownership thinks it cannot pass its costs to the fans. Business is about making profits after all.
In my fondest musings I like to think that Ralph is most concerned about his legacy in football history. How about a new Ralph Wilson stadium with a bronze statue of Ralph in his prime at the gate in exchange for the new group undertaking to leave the team in Buffalo and paying less to buy them. We get to keep the Bills and Ralph gets to live forever. Perfection!