Bills failed drafts - scouting or coaching?

[Dr. Lecter]

With the most recent house-cleaning of crap from this team (Lynch, Edwards, Hardy, soon to be McCargo) much has been said about the scouting of this team.

But how many of these players were ruined/damaged by bad coaching? Is it all on the scouting? Or has the coaching ruined some of these players?

[bigbub2352]

scouting and who ever has the last say in who we take may it be DJ or RW or Brandon or levy or Modrak

someone severly sucks thou at it

[Philagape]

Lately I've been considering that it's a bigger issue.

What if just being with this franchise has a depressing effect? Constant losing, national joke reputation, small declining city, no hope on the horizon, etc.

[Philagape]

As for the question, why can't it be both?

[psubills62]

This is something I've been saying for a long, long time. Yes, the scouting is a problem.

But at some point, it becomes the coaching, the player development while he's on our roster, and the scheme. With some teams (particularly New England, Indy on offense and Baltimore, New York Jets on defense), it seems that pretty much anyone can be a star in their system. I don't think it's just scouting - it's coaches putting their players in a position to succeed.

As I've said over and over, the only players who succeeded here under Jauron seemed to do it despite Jauron, not because of him. Guys like Fred Jackson, Jabari Greer, Jairus Byrd, etc. only managed to get on the field due to injuries then did really well when they did. Why weren't these guys on the field to begin with?

I think that both scouting and coaching have played a significant role in why our draft picks simply don't pan out, year after year. People seem to forget that latter reason, though.

[Ebenezer]

Both.

[Bill Cody]

the thing is if Ralph wanted to be cheap he could have hired me a decade ago (or someone else from this board) and I'd go the combine and then tweak an off the rack draft guide. Pay my expenses to stay in the Holiday Inn for a couple days and I'll make the picks. I can tell you right now I'd have done 1000% better than we have, pretty much anyone above a chimp IQ could. If it wasn't so GD depressing it would be comical. But it is the "scouting". It's not like guys we cut go on to play well elsewhere. I mean John McCargo didn't get coached to suck he just sucks. You could make a long list of these guys.

[Mr. Pink]

Scouting.

A bum is a bum.


Example. If you want to say coaching...look at what the Bills tried to do for Losman. They brought in Sam Wyche to personally tutor him. Sam Wyche had a track record. Wyche got the most out of his players. So unless you want to make the leap that Wyche suddenly sucked when he got here, it's the scouting.

[Ebenezer]

the thing is if Ralph wanted to be cheap he could have hired me a decade ago (or someone else from this board) and I'd go the combine and then tweak an off the rack draft guide. Pay my expenses to stay in the Holiday Inn for a couple days and I'll make the picks. I can tell you right now I'd have done 1000% better than we have, pretty much anyone above a chimp IQ could. If it wasn't so GD depressing it would be comical. But it is the "scouting". It's not like guys we cut go on to play well elsewhere. I mean John McCargo didn't get coached to suck he just sucks. You could make a long list of these guys.

The real key to the scouting is "fit" and "chemistry". Yes, the player has to be able to play but they also have to fit with your team. If you have a no huddle offense that throws the ball 50 times a game do you want a conservative stay at home QB? No. The guy will look like a complete baffoon. The team has had so little direction that we don't even know if they have a system.

[justasportsfan]

How much of what the pats have done with guys drafted in the 5th rd. (Brady) and 7th rd. (Cassell) can be attributed to talent ? If it's talent then why were they drafted late? If they were drafted late because they were "raw" then they were developed well.

Welker although already good prior to ending up in NE was made elite by BB. Moss was given up for a 4th by the raiders because they though he was worth a 4th and see what the Pats did with him.

Look at that kid the Pats took from the jets? They actually don't have elite rb stable but they are ranked 13 in the league. Sure they make mistakes every now and then like drafting Maroney .


Marrio Hagan who was a nobody here with no talent other than being just an ST player is now considered one of the better Lb'ers with the Broncos.

McGahee is a TD machine they way they are using him in Balt in the redzone.

Leonard is doing well in jets.

This leads me to believe that some, if not a lot of our players would've been better than they are if they ended somewhere else and guys like Ngata and other like him who we "should have taken" wouldn't have been as good as they are now if we drafted them.


IMO, we have/had some talent. We just didn't know how to develop them and didn't know how to use them wisely.

[YardRat]

Scouting.

Unless the coaches have had final say when the picks rolled around, it isn't their fault we've been drafting (and trading back into the first to draft) guys that have no business being picked where they are and leaving better players for the teams behind us to snap up.

Look at the list...

Maybin - reach.
Whitner - reach.
McCargo - trade up for a reach.
Losman - trade up for a reach.

Not to mention we've whiffed on guys in the second round, that obviously dropped down for reasons everybody but us apparently saw...Hardy, the POS, Kelsay.

[X-Era]

Scouting.

Unless the coaches have had final say when the picks rolled around, it isn't their fault we've been drafting (and trading back into the first to draft) guys that have no business being picked where they are and leaving better players for the teams behind us to snap up.

Look at the list...

Maybin - reach.
Whitner - reach.
McCargo - trade up for a reach.
Losman - trade up for a reach.

Not to mention we've whiffed on guys in the second round, that obviously dropped down for reasons everybody but us apparently saw...Hardy, the POS, Kelsay.
Well were just about as bad as the Pats so I'm not sure how bad we really are.

Get are real QB and things will drastically change for the better. Because decent players on decent teams look better than decent players on bad teams... thats just reality.

[YardRat]

Well were just about as bad as the Pats so I'm not sure how bad we really are.

Get are real QB and things will drastically change for the better. Because decent players on decent teams look better than decent players on bad teams... thats just reality.

That's because 'decent players' on decent teams are surrounded by actual talent that are 'better' than they are, not scrubs that are 'worse'.

[X-Era]

That's because 'decent players' on decent teams are surrounded by actual talent that are 'better' than they are, not scrubs that are 'worse'.Where does the worth of the draftee come into that equation? That's supposedly what we are debating right? And that's my point, put up the Pats drafts over the past 5 years and ours and argue we are so much worse.

[JD]

Both.

It seems the players weren't great to begin with, but a good coach can bring out the best in it's players. With the Bills, we've been constantly rebuilding so there is just no patience for players that need to be worked with. The coach is under constant pressure to not **** up that it might hamper down to much on young players.

Since 2007, all but 2 players have been ousted from their starting positions.

[DraftBoy]

Scouting.

[YardRat]

Why just the last five years? Look at the base the Patriots already had in place previous to that, from the draft...

Mankins, Wilfork, Warren, Seymour, Woody...and those are just the first rounders.

Who did the Bills draft in those years? Flowers, Clements, Williams, McGahee, Losman.

We have no base, and haven't had one, to build around for quite a few years. Our coaching selections certainly haven't been the brightest either, and granted our ineptitude is a combination of no talent and poor coaching not simply one or the other, but there isn't a coach alive or dead that could've been successful with the players we've been putting on the field, especially when compared to some of the talent we could've (should've?) had.

[X-Era]

Why just the last five years? Look at the base the Patriots already had in place previous to that, from the draft...

Mankins, Wilfork, Warren, Seymour, Woody...and those are just the first rounders.

Who did the Bills draft in those years? Flowers, Clements, Williams, McGahee, Losman.

We have no base, and haven't had one, to build around for quite a few years. Our coaching selections certainly haven't been the brightest either, and granted our ineptitude is a combination of no talent and poor coaching not simply one or the other, but there isn't a coach alive or dead that could've been successful with the players we've been putting on the field, especially when compared to some of the talent we could've (should've?) had.
You listed one guy in the past five drafts and a guy who isn't even playing. I agree that they drafted players on an already good team. And they are a worse team right now. They went from being a dynasty team to a team that struggles to win the division and really struggles to get deep into the playoffs. There's a whole host of teams that do that year after year and dont stock pile picks. Yet they are better scouts and do a better job at the draft? no.

[YardRat]

You listed one guy in the past five drafts and a guy who isn't even playing. I agree that they drafted players on an already good team. And they are worse for it. Yet they are better scouts and do a better job at the draft? no.

I don't believe I listed anybody from the last five drafts...I intentionally went past that, to compare the drafting of the two teams prior. The bottom line is the Patriots drafted talent, we didn't.

Do you think BB would've won with the likes of Losman, McCargo, Williams, et al?

[X-Era]

I don't believe I listed anybody from the last five drafts...I intentionally went past that, to compare the drafting of the two teams prior. The bottom line is the Patriots drafted talent, we didn't.

Do you think BB would've won with the likes of Losman, McCargo, Williams, et al?What talent did they draft in the past 5 years? You claim they draft talent, emphatically, who? So, if you hit on less than a handful of players over 5 years ago, your a sound team at drafting? What happens when you perennial have almost two picks per round in the past five drafts and still have little to show for it?

BTW, Mankins was drafted in 2005.

I get your point. That they hit on a few players more than 5 years ago, and it has relevance to their success. But I dont think we can claim they are studs at drafting based on that.

[OpIv37]

With the most recent house-cleaning of crap from this team (Lynch, Edwards, Hardy, soon to be McCargo) much has been said about the scouting of this team.

But how many of these players were ruined/damaged by bad coaching? Is it all on the scouting? Or has the coaching ruined some of these players?

It's both but I'm leaning more towards scouting for two main reasons:

1. None of the guys we've whiffed on have ever gone on to be successful with other teams.
2. We've had a lot of turnover in coaching- I can't imagine that Gregg Williams, Mike Mularkey, Dick Jauron, and now Chan Gailey (plus their army of assistants, which had it's own turnover) are ALL completely incompetent at developing players.

[YardRat]

What talent did they draft in the past 5 years? You claim they draft talent, emphatically, who? So, if you hit on less than a handful of players over 5 years ago, your a sound team at drafting? What happens when you perennial have almost two picks per round in the past five drafts and still have little to show for it?

BTW, Mankins was drafted in 2005.

I get your point. That they hit on a few players more than 5 years ago, and it has relevance to their success. But I dont think we can claim they are studs at drafting based on that.

They still have some of the core they built in the early part of the decade, especially if you add in the guys taken after round one.

I know Mankins was drafted in '05. The last five drafts would be '10, '09, '08, '07 and '06.

[X-Era]

They still have some of the core they built in the early part of the decade, especially if you add in the guys taken after round one.

I know Mankins was drafted in '05. The last five drafts would be '10, '09, '08, '07 and '06.Heres my point. This thread points out the Bills failed drafts. Yet, one of the most highly touted teams in the NFL has an almost equal bust rate as ours. So how much does it matter? Obviously everyone wants to draft well, but really a comparison with the Patriots points out the opposite, that you are better off having a solid foundation of players already on your team. Which, if anything, points away from focusing on the draft, and points toward getting a solid foundation and then building through the draft. Had the Patriots had our team 5 years ago, and then drafted they way they did, they might actually be worse than we are right now.

You have to have the solid players. And if you think the Pats are studs at drafting or that their method of stock piling picks is keeping them tops in the league, you arent checking the standings. They are neither a top team as far as drafting, nor a team thats maintaining their level of success.

But, back to the Bills, we need to learn that success means more than just the draft, you better get competitive in all phases of the off-season or your not getting significantly better, and thats my point. We have the money, and the need to add some serious studs in FA. We need to add several, but I would be happy with adding just one every year for the next several years. That, along with decent drafting will get this team better. Alsdo, add in trades. The Pats just traded away their 3rd best player IMO. They are worse today because of it. However, we traded away one 3rd of our starting RB situation and you hear an outcry like we have cut Jim Kelly. We ended up with 2 picks for a player that we can afford to lose. Trades are an important part of the equation and we need to be effective in that phase too.

In summary, it wont be when we add the next draftees who overall end up just being roster fillers that prevents us from being good, its when we dont sign anyone thats a proven upgrade or trade for players that are proven. The Bills want to build solely through the draft and assume they can get drastically better even though they show a success rate just about on par with the rest of the NFL. The draft is a risk and you cant expect much out of it. Your lucky to get one or two hits per year... that wont build a SB team on a squad as bad as ours, EVER. We must supplement the roster from elsewhere.

[Mr. Pink]

Heres my point. This thread points out the Bills failed drafts. Yet, one of the most highly touted teams in the NFL has an almost equal bust rate as ours. So how much does it matter? Obviously everyone wants to draft well, but really a comparison with the Patriots points out the opposite, that you are better off having a solid foundation of players already on your team. Which, if anything, points away from focusing on the draft, and points toward getting a solid foundation and then building through the draft. Had the Patriots had our team 5 years ago, and then drafted they way they did, they might actually be worse than we are right now.

You have to have the solid players. And if you think the Pats are studs at drafting or that their method of stock piling picks is keeping them tops in the league, you arent checking the standings. They are neither a top team as far as drafting, nor a team thats maintaining their level of success.

But, back to the Bills, we need to learn that success means more than just the draft, you better get competitive in all phases of the off-season or your not getting significantly better.

Your point is wrong.

Gostkowski, Merriweather, Mayo, Chung, Tate, Edelman, Brace, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko.

All of them, besides Mesko would be improvements over players on this team.

[X-Era]

Your point is wrong.

Gostkowski, Merriweather, Mayo, Chung, Tate, Edelman, Brace, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko.

All of them, besides Mesko would be improvements over players on this team.Totally wrong.

None of these palyers are hits at this point... none. And you simply state what I have already said, that decent players on a decent team look decent. Merriweather is so good he was benched (http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/brandon-meriweather-benched-because-he-cant-stop-trying-a-lot-of-things/) (http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/brandon-meriweather-benched-because-he-cant-stop-trying-a-lot-of-things/%29), Mayo is so good he has made how many pro-bowls? Mayo is the best pick they have made in the past 5 years by far... OK tahts onbe player. And those are the two best out of all the players you list. You fail to mention the numerous guys who arent even on their team anymore. Chung is good? seriously? Their defense is very questionable and Chung is a reason why. Even after a good game, I would argue Byrd is a better player than Chung. Tate equals Spiller on ST, and Nelson as a WR. Brace and Spikes havent proven anything yet, Hernandez is a nice story, but again look at the number of picks. If you take the number of picks over the past 5 years and end up with Mayo, Merriweather (questionable), and Hernandez (who has a whole 4 games under his belt) and claim they are studs at drafting, well... thats just not the case.

Your argument is only that you hate our players more than the Pats players you list. OK, fine. But its a weak argument for them being great at drafting.

[Mad Bomber]

It's both but I'm leaning more towards scouting for two main reasons:

1. None of the guys we've whiffed on have ever gone on to be successful with other teams.

And we tried to get rid of McCargo (MAJOR whiff), but he couldn't pass a physical.

...and to think that I thought when I heard that the Bills were trading up that they were going for Nick Mangold...

[Mr. Pink]

Totally wrong.

None of these palyers are hits at this point... none. And you simply state what I have already said, that decent players on a decent team look decent. Merriweather is so good he was benched (http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/brandon-meriweather-benched-because-he-cant-stop-trying-a-lot-of-things/) (http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/brandon-meriweather-benched-because-he-cant-stop-trying-a-lot-of-things/%29), Mayo is so good he has made how many pro-bowls? Mayo is the best pick they have made in the past 5 years by far... OK tahts onbe player. And those are the two best out of all the players you list. You fail to mention the numerous guys who arent even on their team anymore. Chung is good? seriously? Their defense is very questionable and Chung is a reason why. Even after a good game, I would argue Byrd is a better player than Chung. Tate equals Spiller on ST, and Nelson as a WR. Brace and Spikes havent proven anything yet, Hernandez is a nice story, but again look at the number of picks. If you take the number of picks over the past 5 years and end up with Mayo, Merriweather (questionable), and Hernandez (who has a whole 4 games under his belt) and claim they are studs at drafting, well... thats just not the case.


Homeristic view at it's finest.

Mayo is the player that defense is centered around and is definitely better than POS. Merriweather is coming off a probowl season and Donte Whitner couldn't hold his jock. Edelman or Tate would be the number 2 WR here, Tate would likely push Evans for the 1. Spikes is better than Davis, Ellison, whoever else we line up next to POS. Butler started 5 games as a rookie and has as much promise as McKelvin. Hernandez > Nelson, Stupar, Schouman, whoever. I'd rather have Brace or Pryor for that matter playing NT than what we do now. Kyle Williams is a better player than both, but is not a NT.

If we had the Pats drafts of the past 5 years we'd be in a hell of a lot better position today than with our own.

If you want to go with their busts...Maroney and Lynch are interchangeable. Same running style. Both dime a dozen average NFL backs.

We draft Trent Edwards, they draft Kevin O'Connell...who cares? O'Connell would have started here too and done a whole lot of nothing.

They draft Chad Jackson while we draft James Hardy. YaY!

The difference is in the past 5 years they've drafted probowl caliber players. We've drafted Byrd who was a product of the system more than his own skill set as noticed by the fact he's disappeared this year.

BTW How many first team all-pro's have we drafted in the past 5 years? The patriots have one.

[Stewie]

If the bills are so terrible at scouting, so is very other team in the league. Everyone thinks they're a draftnik, and can do well with draft guides. But every year at 32 guys get picked by the pros in the first round, and everyone likes them for a lot of reasons.... but half of them end up not working out. Consistently. So does everyone suck at scouting? Of course not, it has to go deeper.

Coaching is part of it. So is breeding a winning culture.

And don't forget personal willingness to work. We expect these guys to act like professionals but we're talking about 21 year old kids, many of whom have a ton of extra cash, and some of whom have more money than most people will ever earn. Think about some of the stupid things you did as a 21 year old professional.. blow off projects, assignments, work in general...it's rare to find someone that's willing to put in extra time and effort at his job at that age. Toss that 21 year old into a culture where losing has become acceptable, and the motivation to work harder goes down even more.

So Dr the answer is D> all of the above.

[X-Era]

Mayo is the player that defense is centered around and is definitely better than POS. I actually agree, thats one player.


Merriweather is coming off a probowl season and Donte Whitner couldn't hold his jock. And hes so good that he got benched? No defense for Whitner, its about how well they drafted... thats far from proof that they got a stud. Byrd was a pro-bowler and I would prefer him still.


Edelman or Tate would be the number 2 WR here, Tate would likely push Evans for the 1. I can only laugh at this.


Spikes is better than Davis, Ellison, whoever else we line up next to POS. Spikes has yet to do anything. Again, No defense for Davis or Ellison (whom I want gone). Its about how they supposedly are great at drafting.


Butler started 5 games as a rookie and has as much promise as McKelvin. This is hillarious. Butler has been toast all year so far. Nope, McKelvin over Butler all day.


Hernandez > Nelson, Stupar, Schouman, whoever. Id be happy to have him, and agree he's better than what we have... Thats two players out of 5 years and dozens of picks.


I'd rather have Brace or Pryor for that matter playing NT than what we do now. Kyle Williams is a better player than both, but is not a NT. Id rather have Williams over either and Troup is right on par potential wise with either.


If we had the Pats drafts of the past 5 years we'd be in a hell of a lot better position today than with our own. Swing and a miss. Id like to see the proof because they haven't gotten better, it isnt in the stats or their record.


If you want to go with their busts...Maroney and Lynch are interchangeable. Same running style. Both dime a dozen average NFL backs. Theres a long list that you arent posting.


The difference is in the past 5 years they've drafted probowl caliber players. They drafted 2, so did we.

Weak argument overall. Your hatred for our players clouds your argument. And you never added in that they should have had double the number of pro-bowlers that we have since they had double the picks.

Forget the Bills, the Ravens, Steelers, and Colts dont make the number of draft trades that the Pats do, and dont have the number of picks yet boast as good or better results over the past 5 years... Explain that.

[psubills62]

Homeristic view at it's finest.

Mayo is the player that defense is centered around and is definitely better than POS. Merriweather is coming off a probowl season and Donte Whitner couldn't hold his jock. Edelman or Tate would be the number 2 WR here, Tate would likely push Evans for the 1. Spikes is better than Davis, Ellison, whoever else we line up next to POS. Butler started 5 games as a rookie and has as much promise as McKelvin. Hernandez > Nelson, Stupar, Schouman, whoever. I'd rather have Brace or Pryor for that matter playing NT than what we do now. Kyle Williams is a better player than both, but is not a NT.

If we had the Pats drafts of the past 5 years we'd be in a hell of a lot better position today than with our own.

If you want to go with their busts...Maroney and Lynch are interchangeable. Same running style. Both dime a dozen average NFL backs.

We draft Trent Edwards, they draft Kevin O'Connell...who cares? O'Connell would have started here too and done a whole lot of nothing.

They draft Chad Jackson while we draft James Hardy. YaY!

The difference is in the past 5 years they've drafted probowl caliber players. We've drafted Byrd who was a product of the system more than his own skill set as noticed by the fact he's disappeared this year.

BTW How many first team all-pro's have we drafted in the past 5 years? The patriots have one.

I'd say yours is by far the exaggerating view than X-Era's.

New England has been in the 3-4 defense for how long? Of course the guys they have fit the defense better than guys we have. But there's a reason their run defense is nearly as bad as ours (4.4 YPA vs. 4.6 YPA). They've got a lot of big names that everyone drools over, but despite all the talent of Mayo, Spikes, Wilfork, etc., their defense is horrible.

In terms of overall yardage per play, they're worse than us. And not just worse statistically - look at the offenses they've faced versus the offenses we've faced:

Pats schedule: Bengals, Jets, Bills, Dolphins
Bills schedule: Dolphins, Packers, Patriots, Jets

So we've both played the Jets and Dolphins, that's a wash. But the Bengals and Bills offenses vs. Packers and Patriots? Sorry, their defense is doing worse statistically while playing bad offenses. We're at least playing decent offenses.

I'll never understand why people drool all over the New England defense. Poz had more big plays in 12 games last year than Mayo has had in 32 games in his career so far. Butler is crap, there's a reason he gets burned a lot, and why an undrafted free agent is starting over him. Hernandez is good, Meriweather is inconsistent. No way Tate would push Evans for the #1. Davis is better than Spikes.

What's amusing is that you call people homers while mostly taking antagonistic points of view, seemingly on purpose to rile people up.

New England has drafted talent, but for the most part they haven't gotten nearly as much talent as they should have with all the draft picks they've been getting. Their defense is horrid, absolutely horrid.

[X-Era]

New England has drafted talent, but for the most part they haven't gotten nearly as much talent as they should have with all the draft picks they've been getting. Their defense is horrid, absolutely horrid.

:clap:

Its just that easy. And I honestly struggle to understand why they get as much props as they do for their drafts, This last years draft was one of their best in the past 5 years, because the 4 or more previous were very questionable IMO.

And my point is only that there is other important aspects to building a quality team outside the draft. And that I'm worried that we arent going to pay much attention to those angles. I'm hopeful after our latest move that we may be finally willing to make moves to get better. The Bills arent horrible in the draft, they are about average maybe a bit less than average.

[Beebe's Kid]

If the bills are so terrible at scouting, so is very other team in the league. Everyone thinks they're a draftnik, and can do well with draft guides. But every year at 32 guys get picked by the pros in the first round, and everyone likes them for a lot of reasons.... but half of them end up not working out. Consistently. So does everyone suck at scouting? Of course not, it has to go deeper.

Coaching is part of it. So is breeding a winning culture.

And don't forget personal willingness to work. We expect these guys to act like professionals but we're talking about 21 year old kids, many of whom have a ton of extra cash, and some of whom have more money than most people will ever earn. Think about some of the stupid things you did as a 21 year old professional.. blow off projects, assignments, work in general...it's rare to find someone that's willing to put in extra time and effort at his job at that age. Toss that 21 year old into a culture where losing has become acceptable, and the motivation to work harder goes down even more.

So Dr the answer is D> all of the above.

Boom.

That's it in a nutshell.

X, I am with you 100% on this argument...the defense can rest, dude. You owned it. Stewie gave you the closing argument. Winning culture.

The only point that you had that I have a little conern about is that the Pats aren't as good as they used to be... The were 16-0, they didn't win the big one that year, but they were the best team in football. The next year...TB goes down, then last year they were getting the train back on the tracks...

For a horrible team they looked pretty ****ing good smacking the bull**** out of the Dolphins the other night...and that WR they traded didn't have a catch.

The Pats are good, because they think, and believe their good. We have no winning culture here. ****, half of the fans that are knowledgeable think signing Kelsay was a plot to turn the fan base to move the team...

When we get down, we stay there...and wait for kicks. If we're up, we wait for the other shoe to drop. New England game was a good example, we looked good, and the attitude everywhere is that New England's D must just suck... That is a perfect example.

Everybody likes the Major League theme lately, so it would be fitting that this team "has no marlbes."

I hope Chan can change that, but he has looked a little timid the last couple games. We need to know what we do best, and more importantly, what we don't do well... The key to winning, is understanding how to win. To understand anything in this world the most important thing to know is what you don't know.

[Night Train]

Most times, it's who has the final say in the picks.

TD,then Jauron had the final say up until this past April. I'm focused on those 2 sinking this team.

[X-Era]

Boom.

That's it in a nutshell.

X, I am with you 100% on this argument...the defense can rest, dude. You owned it. Stewie gave you the closing argument. Winning culture.

The only point that you had that I have a little conern about is that the Pats aren't as good as they used to be... The were 16-0, they didn't win the big one that year, but they were the best team in football. The next year...TB goes down, then last year they were getting the train back on the tracks...

For a horrible team they looked pretty ****ing good smacking the bull**** out of the Dolphins the other night...and that WR they traded didn't have a catch.

The Pats are good, because they think, and believe their good. We have no winning culture here. ****, half of the fans that are knowledgeable think signing Kelsay was a plot to turn the fan base to move the team...

When we get down, we stay there...and wait for kicks. If we're up, we wait for the other shoe to drop. New England game was a good example, we looked good, and the attitude everywhere is that New England's D must just suck... That is a perfect example.

Everybody likes the Major League theme lately, so it would be fitting that this team "has no marlbes."

I hope Chan can change that, but he has looked a little timid the last couple games. We need to know what we do best, and more importantly, what we don't do well... The key to winning, is understanding how to win. To understand anything in this world the most important thing to know is what you don't know.This was a team that went to 3 out of 4 SB's from 01 to 04. But in the past 5 years have not attained the same results. They went to the SB in 07, didn't make the playoffs in 08, and was bounced in the 1st round in 09. During thsi time they have moved around in the draft and had a load of picks. Yet, their results are getting worse, not better. If someone is trying to say the Pats are maintaining dominance through sound drafting, there isn't data to support that.

Ravens, Steelers, Colts, Chargers, and Patriots... all frequent the playoffs. What do they have in common? Its not moving around to get loads of draft picks or even making a bunch of trades. They all have very good NFL QB's and several other top players. The whole bar for the level of overall talent must be raised on the Bills. We need a few stud players and a franchise QB, if we add in a small few solid players from the draft each year, we can become a playoff team ourselves.

[YardRat]

You're the one that brought up the Patriots specifically, X. Every team has their hits and misses.

Look around the league...the successful teams hit more often...because they are better at talent evaluation.


The whole bar for the level of overall talent must be raised on the Bills. We need a few stud players and a franchise QB, if we add in a small few solid players from the draft each year, we can become a playoff team ourselves.

And that's the point. We don't have a few stud players, we don't have a franchise QB, and we don't have a few solid players from the draft each year. Why? Because apparently we have sucked at scouting, evaluating, and choosing talent.

It's that simple.

[X-Era]

You're the one that brought up the Patriots specifically, X. Every team has their hits and misses.

Look around the league...the successful teams hit more often...because they are better at talent evaluation.



And that's the point. We don't have a few stud players, we don't have a franchise QB, and we don't have a few solid players from the draft each year. Why? Because apparently we have sucked at scouting, evaluating, and choosing talent.

It's that simple.

I agree with all of this. I think were agreeing more than you think. I'm challenging the notion that the Pats are great at drafting and we suck. No, we both suck in that case. They landed a future HOF QB in the draft a decade ago and its a huge part of their success. Since they have been moving and gathering so many picks. They have had more misses actually than we have because of the number of picks.

I want to land a franchise QB as well form this draft. and we need to add a few high quality players.

[DraftBoy]

I agree with all of this. I think were agreeing more than you think. I'm challenging the notion that the Pats are great at drafting and we suck. No, we both suck in that case. They landed a future HOF QB in the draft a decade ago and its a huge part of their success. Since they have been moving and gathering so many picks. They have had more misses actually than we have because of the number of picks.

I want to land a franchise QB as well form this draft. and we need to add a few high quality players.

Im not sure we are going to land a franchise QB in this draft, not off of what I heard yesterday.

[X-Era]

Im not sure we are going to land a franchise QB in this draft, not off of what I heard yesterday.I will be shocked if we dont. And thats with what you heard yesterday. They have a chance to parlay that high pick for a QB with franchise potential, they get a pass from me until they make that pick.

[billz83]

i believe its both....we stay drafting busts and players that clearly need development..the problem is we cant develop them here because the coaches suck..therez a few exceptions to that like sumone mentioned above in the bills gettin wyche for losman and losman still sucked but that was more the player just being garbage then anything a coach could do for him..they need to fix BOTH parts..it would help if the bills got sum real good FA though because they could help with the mentoring of the player but for sum reason wilsonz cheap *** doesnt believe in paying GOOD players only GARBAGE onez.