Why draft a QB

[DesertFox24]

Its like everyone wants to do it but tell me how many QBs have thrown 4 TDs and 371 at the Ravens. Yeah he threw 2 picks but you know what Favre had bad games as well.

Could Fitz be our Kurt Warner a guy that gets it later than most, considering he will only be 28 in November it is not like he is old.

I what I am saying is if Fitz keeps playing well hopefully we will win a few games and not have the number 1 pick, but our D is killing us. If we do get the number 1 pick I say take best defender.

I don't know I have been impressed with Fitz but maybe that is just me.

[two11ks]

I agree. Draft defense.

[Novacane]

Let's see what he does the rest of the year.

[Bangarang]

We most certainly still need to draft a franchise QB. However, if Luck doesn't come out then I would rather get an elite DE for our defense than reach for a QB with a top pick.

edit: A.J. Green would also be an option

[Ingtar33]

Let's see what he does the rest of the year.

seriously.

[Nighthawk]

Let's see what he does the rest of the year.

Agreed....

[Stewie]

Fitzpatrick didn't have any of those "wtf" throws that made him ryan fitzpatrick up until this point. As far as I could tell, the only thing wrong with him was his inaccuracy, inability to consistently hit the throws.

Today, he hit all those throws. If he can play like today more often than not, there's no way we should draft a QB over defense, given the state of the team.

[Nighthawk]

Fitzpatrick didn't have any of those "wtf" throws that made him ryan fitzpatrick up until this point. As far as I could tell, the only thing wrong with him was his inaccuracy, inability to consistently hit the throws.

Today, he hit all those throws. If he can play like today more often than not, there's no way we should draft a QB over defense, given the state of the team.

Did you watch the game? The two INT's were horrible throws and decisions...

[Joe Fo Sho]

Side note, prior to this week I made a trade in my Fantasy Football league. 8 player trade, in which I got Fitz, and gave up Orton. Looks really good today so far...

[DesertFox24]

seriously.

No I agree and said as much in my post, but if he keeps playing well the remaining 6 games why not go with him next year and see what he does.

In all honesty I do not think Locker or Mallett are worth a top 5 pick. I do not want us to over draft.

We could draft a stud D person or AJ Green and give Fitz even more weapons.

yes this post is a little early but I would hate for us to let him leave and he becomes Kurt Warner.

[Owen DeBoard]

Its like everyone wants to do it but tell me how many QBs have thrown 4 TDs and 371 at the Ravens. Yeah he threw 2 picks but you know what Favre had bad games as well.

Could Fitz be our Kurt Warner a guy that gets it later than most, considering he will only be 28 in November it is not like he is old.

I what I am saying is if Fitz keeps playing well hopefully we will win a few games and not have the number 1 pick, but our D is killing us. If we do get the number 1 pick I say take best defender.

I don't know I have been impressed with Fitz but maybe that is just me.
I agree. If we have the number 1 pick we need to draft a LT or DL. Championship teams build the lines first.

[SquishDaFish]

Fitz has been playing good but the top 3 QBs we might have a chance at might be the best ones to come out since Kelly draft.

[DesertFox24]

Did you watch the game? The two INT's were horrible throws and decisions...

Every QB throws picks.

Is Fitz Peyton or Tom heck no, but I think he can be a top 15 QB and that is good enough at this point.

Kurt Warner would throw a lot of picks and so does Farve (no I do not think he is that good), but my point is why over draft a QB when you have a potential top 15 guy on your roster.

He threw for 370 4 TD and 2 INTs at the Ravens QBs against the ravens had a QB rating of 56 till this game. That was a heck of a game, and late in the fourth he lead two big time drives when they had all the momentum.

[Nighthawk]

I agree. If we have the number 1 pick we need to draft a LT or DL. Championship teams build the lines first.

No, they have franchise QBs...

[DesertFox24]

If Luck comes out and the bills draft him I will be ok, because he has a chance to be elite.

I do not draft Mallett or Locker in top 5

[k-oneputt]

Wow.
This board is getting really ridiculous.

[Nighthawk]

Every QB throws picks.

Is Fitz Peyton or Tom heck no, but I think he can be a top 15 QB and that is good enough at this point.

Kurt Warner would throw a lot of picks and so does Farve (no I do not think he is that good), but my point is why over draft a QB when you have a potential top 15 guy on your roster.

He threw for 370 4 TD and 2 INTs at the Ravens QBs against the ravens had a QB rating of 56 till this game. That was a heck of a game, and late in the fourth he lead two big time drives when they had all the momentum.

True, but this is Fitz's history...you cannot just ignore that. Like I've said before, I'm pleasantly surprised by his play, but I still don't believe he is the answer at QB. Maybe he'll play great the rest of the year and change my mind, but right now, I've not seen enough to not draft a franchise QB if there is one on the board.

[DesertFox24]

Wow.
This board is getting really ridiculous.

I am sure rams fans said same stuff about Warner in the late 90's. He only went to two super bowls, but hey Fitz can't be that guy right.

[chernobylwraiths]

This thread is hilarious.

[DesertFox24]

True, but this is Fitz's history...you cannot just ignore that. Like I've said before, I'm pleasantly surprised by his play, but I still don't believe he is the answer at QB. Maybe he'll play great the rest of the year and change my mind, but right now, I've not seen enough to not draft a franchise QB if there is one on the board.

Never saw him play this well for this long of a stretch.

Last year he would be ok for a game or two, but then suck it up. He actually kept us in this game and almost lead the come back.

[SeatownBillsFan21]

Its like everyone wants to do it but tell me how many QBs have thrown 4 TDs and 371 at the Ravens. Yeah he threw 2 picks but you know what Favre had bad games as well.

Could Fitz be our Kurt Warner a guy that gets it later than most, considering he will only be 28 in November it is not like he is old.

I what I am saying is if Fitz keeps playing well hopefully we will win a few games and not have the number 1 pick, but our D is killing us. If we do get the number 1 pick I say take best defender.

I don't know I have been impressed with Fitz but maybe that is just me.

Yes this is just you its 1 game and a very good 1 game at that but lets not get carried away Fitz is not the future of the Bills get the QB and then go Def the rest of the way.

[Nighthawk]

Never saw him play this well for this long of a stretch.

Last year he would be ok for a game or two, but then suck it up. He actually kept us in this game and almost lead the come back.

A lot of it has to be credited to Gailey...he has a history of making average QBs look good. Just to name a few...Kordell Stewart, Tyler Thigpen and now Ryan Fitzpatrick.

[Owen DeBoard]

No, they have franchise QBs...
A franchise QB is no good without a line in front of them right?

[Nighthawk]

A franchise QB is no good without a line in front of them right?

IMO...wrong. How good is Aaron Rodgers OL...what about Roethlesburger's? The QB can/will always make the OL look better or worse.

[X-Era]

This is no longer optional. Drafting a franchise is a must.

[Ed]

I've been critical of Fitz in the past, but he was a total gamer today. Picks happen and let's not forget that he was playing against a great defense on the road. He runs well too. I wanted to see what Brohm could do, but at this point I'm willing to give Fitz the rest of the season.

I'm not advocating that we don't draft a qb early, but the front 7 of our D is clearly the biggest weakness right now.

[TheBrownBear]

fitz still has a lot to prove before I annoit him anything. He needs to keep up the strong play for the rest of the season. Right now he's on track for one of the best stastical seasons in buffalo qb history. If he throws 30+ tds against 15 ints we'd be stupid not to roll with him next year.

[chernobylwraiths]

Fitz will make a very good 2nd stringer.

[Nighthawk]

Fitz will make a very good 2nd stringer.

This I agree with...I didn't at the beginning of the year, but now I believe it to be true. It is very obvious that Gailey is a very good OC for QB's.

[Stewie]

Did you watch the game? The two INT's were horrible throws and decisions...

The batted INT wasn't his fault. I'll give you the other one.

[Buffalo Thriller]

You guys could beat a dead horse over Fizpatrick

[SeatownBillsFan21]

You guys could beat a dead horse over Fizpatrick

And we will

[SquishDaFish]

Locker or Luck in Buffalo!

[Buffalo Thriller]

Locker baby.

[Saratoga Slim]

If I learned anything about our 2011 draft needs today, it's that it's time to stop debating our 2011 draft needs until the season is over. There are going to be some young guys that start to "get it" over the course of the rest of the season. Maybe some of the vets that we're down on now will get in rythym with the new systems. And there are going to be some guys that look like Pro-Bowlers one week that go back to their normal selves over the long term.

[Michael82]

You gotta be kidding me! Fitzpatrick is a great backup! But that is all he will ever be. He's been on 3 teams so far and is not the answer for a team that is looking for a franchise QB. We need to use our top 3 pick and get ourselves the QB of the future that we desperately need!

[Michael82]

This is no longer optional. Drafting a franchise is a must.
EXACTLY! :hi5:

[DesertFox24]

This is no longer optional. Drafting a franchise is a must.

So we should overdraft for Locker or Mallett if Luck does not come out.

I am all for Luck but not Locker or Mallett, if Luck does not come out I say go defense and draft a QB in round 2 to develop.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

Locker or Luck. Not sure which one but let the college year progress and the combines start. Take whoever is ranked highest

[Forward_Lateral]

Locker is garbage. If Buffalo drafts him, everyone here will be steaming mad in 2 years. Drafting him will set the franchise back another 5 years. I will pray on draft day that they don't draft him.

As for Fitz, he's near the, if not the top rated QB in the NFL. He hasn't had just "one" good game.

[TacklingDummy]

IMO...wrong. How good is Aaron Rodgers OL...what about Roethlesburger's? The QB can/will always make the OL look better or worse.

How good was the Bills o-line? Today Fitz made them look great by getting rid of the ball quick.

[TacklingDummy]

Locker or Luck in Buffalo!
Neither, Barkley.

I wouldn't mind if the Bills used a 3rd rounder on Stanzi this year though.

[JD]

A lot of it has to be credited to Gailey...he has a history of making average QBs look good. Just to name a few...Kordell Stewart, Tyler Thigpen and now Ryan Fitzpatrick.

Gailey wasn't throwing the ball.. did you see some of those throws he threaded between multiple defenders? It was ridiculous Brady-like throws.

[Nighthawk]

Gailey wasn't throwing the ball.. did you see some of those throws he threaded between multiple defenders? It was ridiculous Brady-like throws.

You can coach up a player and Gailey is known for it. Let's not get carried away over one game. Kelly Holcomb had a big game also...and it was in the playoffs...doesn't mean the player is a franchise QB.

[Crisis]

exactly....i love fitz because of how much heart he plays with and he actually cares....but let's not let one game of him playing well override his entire of body of work as a bill....which to me is nothing more than an average starter at best and a capable backup at worst.

he's not the long-term answer....especially with how QB driven the league is.

[Nighthawk]

exactly....i love fitz because of how much heart he plays with and he actually cares....but let's not let one game of him playing well override his entire of body of work as a bill....which to me is nothing more than an average starter at best and a capable backup at worst.

he's not the long-term answer....especially with how QB driven the league is.

Agreed...I truly believe some people are losing their minds!

[RoscoeMagic]

You can coach up a player and Gailey is known for it. Let's not get carried away over one game. Kelly Holcomb had a big game also...and it was in the playoffs...doesn't mean the player is a franchise QB.

He's had a few good games this season.

Fitz has 11 TDs in 4 games so far.

Edwards had 11 the entire 2008 season which was good enough to give him a chance at the franchise QB. Frankly, Fitz deserves the same chance if he plays like this.

[Arctic Wild Man]

From what little bit of the game that was shown in my area, Fitz looked quite capable.

Before we jump on the latest hot name in college QB's, we need to see how Fitz handles the rest of the season. I'd rather see us draft a more "sure thing" defensive player than risk a pick on any of the so called QB's that have been labeled franchise saviors. None of the supposed top 3 QB's in college football are showing that they are worth a #1 pick right now.

[Owen DeBoard]

IMO...wrong. How good is Aaron Rodgers OL...what about Roethlesburger's? The QB can/will always make the OL look better or worse.
Well were gonna have to agree to disagree how about Stafford Brees (this year) and Cutler.

[billsfanryan]

We most certainly still need to draft a franchise QB. However, if Luck doesn't come out then I would rather get an elite DE for our defense than reach for a QB with a top pick.

edit: A.J. Green would also be an option

I think we have to draft a QB unless the guy we want doesn't come out or we aren't in a position to take the guy we want (like this past year, we liked bradford but were not in a position to take him). If Nix feels that Luck or Mallett is the guy he wants and neither come out, I hope they don't draft a QB they don't like just to draft one.

If for somereason we aren't in a position to take who we want, or who we want doesn't come out i think we absolutely HAVE TO draft defense. This defense that we have is lacking so much talent. No way would i take AJ Green, even though he is good. Defense is our biggest need.

[Mr. Pink]

The only way you don't draft a QB this year if you're the Bills is if you don't think Luck-if he declares, Locker or Mallet is the long term solution at the position.

If you think any of those three are someone who can be the face of the franchise for the next decade, you simply cannot pass on it.

Fitzpatrick will never be a franchise QB. He's not consistent enough and he's not the most accurate passer.

[elltrain22]

If Luck declares, I don't how good Fitz looks, we better draft him.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

draft a franchice QB and let him sit behind fitz next year and take the reigns after a couple drafts where we get some good linemen
pretty elementary if you ask me

[X-Era]

You can coach up a player and Gailey is known for it. Let's not get carried away over one game. Kelly Holcomb had a big game also...and it was in the playoffs...doesn't mean the player is a franchise QB.
Exactly. Were talking about one good game... a losing game... on a winless team.

Have our expectations really shrunk that low?

[X-Era]

He's had a few good games this season.

Fitz has 11 TDs in 4 games so far.

Edwards had 11 the entire 2008 season which was good enough to give him a chance at the franchise QB. Frankly, Fitz deserves the same chance if he plays like this.He has had that chance all along... but he hasn't seized it. There is a reason he's not being thought of as the franchise QB.

[X-Era]

From what little bit of the game that was shown in my area, Fitz looked quite capable.

Before we jump on the latest hot name in college QB's, we need to see how Fitz handles the rest of the season. I'd rather see us draft a more "sure thing" defensive player than risk a pick on any of the so called QB's that have been labeled franchise saviors. None of the supposed top 3 QB's in college football are showing that they are worth a #1 pick right now.


Theres a sure thing defensive player?

Any other player is a lock as the top pick?

[Dr. Taylor Zaius]

Its like everyone wants to do it but tell me how many QBs have thrown 4 TDs and 371 at the Ravens. Yeah he threw 2 picks but you know what Favre had bad games as well.

Could Fitz be our Kurt Warner a guy that gets it later than most, considering he will only be 28 in November it is not like he is old.

I what I am saying is if Fitz keeps playing well hopefully we will win a few games and not have the number 1 pick, but our D is killing us. If we do get the number 1 pick I say take best defender.

I don't know I have been impressed with Fitz but maybe that is just me.
ARE YOU KIDDING?????!!!!!!:op:

[DesertFox24]

Look if Fitz keeps playing well then I know it is going to make it tough for them. The good thing we have is we are going to be playing some really tough defenses and our division rivals to end the season so we will see what happens.

It also looks like the division will still be up in the air the way the jets and pats are playing so those guys are going to be playing hard because division record is the first tie breaker.

Also Buddy Nix said he is not going to draft based on need, he is going to draft by his board and if two players have an equal grade and one of them is a position of need he will go the need guy in that scenario, but if there is a guy with a higher grade than a position of need he is going best player.

All I know is this team needs a lot of picks and a lot of defensive front 7 guys and some more OL could never hurt.

[jamze132]

The Bills are in the position where we can only draft BPA. End of discussion.

[Mahdi]

We most certainly still need to draft a franchise QB. However, if Luck doesn't come out then I would rather get an elite DE for our defense than reach for a QB with a top pick.

edit: A.J. Green would also be an option
AJ Green? Why? Nelson and Johnson are coming along great and we have 2 vets in Evans and Parrish.

We need a defensive monster or a QB. That will depend on how Fitz plays the rest of the year.

[Mahdi]

How good was the Bills o-line? Today Fitz made them look great by getting rid of the ball quick.
No, not at all. Sorry but a lot of those routes were long-developing and the OL had to hold up. Bell and Howard had a great game on the edge and the interior held up against Ngata all day.

The OL was huge yesterday.

[Jan Reimers]

AJ Green? Why? Nelson and Johnson are coming along great and we have 2 vets in Evans and Parrish.

We need a defensive monster or a QB. That will depend on how Fitz plays the rest of the year.
I totally agree. Not only is the WR corps looking very solid, but the development of Bell and Howard have improved our O-line to the point where we really don't need an OT early, either.

Take a franchise QB and then several DLs and LBs.

[k-oneputt]

AJ Green, Fitz as our future ?????

This place is entertaining.

[Mahdi]

AJ Green, Fitz as our future ?????

This place is entertaining.
You know Fitz is only 27. If he continues to prove that he is a starter in the NFL then having him for the next 6 years is not a bad thing. That allows us to address other needs, and we have plenty of them.

The rest of the season is Fitz's biggest opportunity of his career to prove he is QB1 material.

[k-oneputt]

You know Fitz is only 27. If he continues to prove that he is a starter in the NFL then having him for the next 6 years is not a bad thing. That allows us to address other needs, and we have plenty of them.

The rest of the season is Fitz's biggest opportunity of his career to prove he is QB1 material.

C'mon, you should know better.
He will have a handful of pretty good games, then a dozen bad one's. He is a nice backup and will be a good bridge to the qb they take with the #1 pick.

And Aj Green ? Yeah, that's what we need to do, draft a wr with the 1st pick. JJJEEZZZUUUSSS.

[bluerosekiller]

Right on Mahdi.

If ( & I'll admit, it's a big IF ), Fitz continues to play as well as he has been thus far this season, I think it would be foolish to bench him next season in favor of a first round QB just because it's the "sexy" thing to do.

Just stop & think about our luck ( no pun intended ) with draft picks over the past decade. Then think about all the suppossed franchise QBs that have turned out to be massive disappointments or total busts in the recent past.
Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Matt Leinhart, Alex Smith, JP Losman...

With our luck, combined with the liklihood of failure for QBs in this league, do we really want to tempt fate with a first round QB pick when we just might have a highly capable one on our team already?

It might be worth the gamble were our roster filled with lots of young developing talent on both sides of the ball, but it's not. We have SO many needs. Especially on defense.
Think about it, we could easily be 3-3 or even a game better, right now if our defense were just a wee bit stouter. But it's not. And it shows no signs of getting better without a serious influx of talent.
And ( Maybin aside, of course ), aren't stud defensive players far more likely to have an immediate impact on their teams than offensive players?

My vote is to keep Fitz as starter for the forseeable future if the past few weeks are indicative of his abilities & draft defense come April.

[Mahdi]

C'mon, you should know better.
He will have a handful of pretty good games, then a dozen bad one's. He is a nice backup and will be a good bridge to the qb they take with the #1 pick.

And Aj Green ? Yeah, that's what we need to do, draft a wr with the 1st pick. JJJEEZZZUUUSSS.
There are many who thought Edwards was the best QB on the roster and we shouldn't even bother going to Fitz. Now Fitz has shown he can run this offense and produce at a high level.

If he can show that he can do it on a consistent basis then he will have earned the right to be the starter for the foreseeable future.

[DesertFox24]

I am not saying extend Fitz yet, he would have to play well the rest of the season and then produce next year for me to give him an extension.

He also has this year and two more years on his contract so we are not in jeopardy of losing him.

[DesertFox24]

I honestly do not get all the hate there have been plenty of no name guys in this league to develop and have become solid QBs.

Romo, Warner, hasselback, Gannon, and Moon. All of these guys except Romo went to another team or two and did great things. Why is it that Fitz can not be in the same group.

Look I am not saying he is yet, but if he plays consistently good football these remaining 10 games why give up on him. I say lets get some more talent on offense and defense and see what he can do next year.

Now if plays like he did last year and is a roller coaster guy then yes draft a QB, but if he has a top 5 QB rating at end of the year and throws over 20 TDs why the hell not give him a chance to maybe be our franchise guy.

STRANGER THINGS HAVE HAPPENED FOLKS.

[DesertFox24]

I guess only first round QBs and Tom Brady are the only place franchise QBs come from. You guys are right, just ignore history and facts.

Stupid me!

[Bangarang]

If Luck comes out. You take him. There shouldn't be any questions. Fitz is not a franchise quarterback and he's playing out of his mind right now. I don't expect that to continue for the rest of the season. It won't be until Fitz has a bad game that people saying we don't need to draft a franchise qb will come back down to Earth.

[ZAZusmc03]

Regardless of how Fitz plays the rest of the season, the bills need to use one of their first two picks on a qb. Let him sit behind Fitz for a season or two. By then our d will have.more talent and we will be.much closer to contention.

[DesertFox24]

If Luck comes out. You take him. There shouldn't be any questions. Fitz is not a franchise quarterback and he's playing out of his mind right now. I don't expect that to continue for the rest of the season. It won't be until Fitz has a bad game that people saying we don't need to draft a franchise qb will come back down to Earth.

I agree but if Fitz plays well these last 10 games we will not be picking 1, I firmly believe that.

San Fran, cleveland, and the panthers are worse than us.

[Bill Cody]

Some of this could have to do with a new labor agreement believe it or not. Ideally if you're picking 1st you want the pick to be a QB in today's NFL because giving a lineman 50m guaranteed is kind of crazy in terms of your teams wage balance, you'd really like the QB to be the star and make the most money, it is after all the most important position.

If there is an agreement that includes a wage scale for rookies then it won't matter much who you take 1st from a money standpoint. You might say money shouldn't matter take the best player but money always matters and after all we're talking about the Bills here.

My guess is there's going to be a lockout but they will hold the draft under today's rules. So the Bills will probably lean strongly towards QB unless Fitz really shines the rest of the way. My guess is Luck stays in school another year. So the pick would then probably be Locker. If there's an agreement with a wage scale AND Fitz looks like the real deal you could take a guy like Marcel Dareus of AL who could be a force as a DE in 3-4.

[Nighthawk]

Everybody keeps ignoring the Gailey factor. He's well known for being able to make mediocre QBs look good...just like Fitz. He did it with Kordell Stewart and Tyler Thigpen...just to name a couple. You guys have to relax with the "Fitz is a franchise QB" stuff. IMO, his play is more attributed to Gailey then anything else.

[Bill Cody]

Everybody keeps ignoring the Gailey factor. He's well known for being able to make mediocre QBs look good...just like Fitz. He did it with Kordell Stewart and Tyler Thigpen...just to name a couple. You guys have to relax with the "Fitz is a franchise QB" stuff. IMO, his play is more attributed to Gailey then anything else.

I dunno. Where was the Gailey magic touch on Trent Edwards? Gailey thought he he could do something with Trent but figured out PDQ he couldn't. I'm by no means calling Fitz a franchise QB but I'm also not afraid to give the man his due for yesterday. With Fitz it all comes down to accuracy.

[DesertFox24]

Everybody keeps ignoring the Gailey factor. He's well known for being able to make mediocre QBs look good...just like Fitz. He did it with Kordell Stewart and Tyler Thigpen...just to name a couple. You guys have to relax with the "Fitz is a franchise QB" stuff. IMO, his play is more attributed to Gailey then anything else.

Ok so what is your point. Do you think any other QB could have done what Fitz did yesterday.

Given the fact that up until yesterday QBs averaged a 56 QB rating against the ravens 3rd ranked pass defense and only gave up 290 yards a game.

I am sorry but that was not the chiefs of 08 that Edwards put 50 up on. This was a playoff team at their house before their bye looking for a win and a are darn good team.

Yeah lets just ignore it because Fitz is not a first round draft pick.

[Nighthawk]

I dunno. Where was the Gailey magic touch on Trent Edwards? Gailey thought he he could do something with Trent but figured out PDQ he couldn't. I'm by no means calling Fitz a franchise QB but I'm also not afraid to give the man his due for yesterday. With Fitz it all comes down to accuracy.

Edwards doesn't have the makeup and that is exactly why the Bills gave Edwards more time...because they thought Gailey could make him into something. He couldn't and they moved on. I'm not taking anything away from him yesterday, but the people blowing their wads over his performance are kind of funny.

[Nighthawk]

Ok so what is your point. Do you think any other QB could have done what Fitz did yesterday.

Given the fact that up until yesterday QBs averaged a 56 QB rating against the ravens 3rd ranked pass defense and only gave up 290 yards a game.

I am sorry but that was not the chiefs of 08 that Edwards put 50 up on. This was a playoff team at their house before their bye looking for a win and a are darn good team.

Yeah lets just ignore it because Fitz is not a first round draft pick.

So, you're telling me that Fitz is the best QB that has played against the Ravens??? Really?

News flash...QB's have good games! Let him do it consistently before anointing him the next coming of John Elway. That's all I'm saying!