Did I Miss Something?

[Jan Reimers]

We've strengthened every area of our team--at least to some extent--except for kickoff returns. Rogers, thankfully, is gone, but unless I missed it, we really haven't come up with a true KO returner.

[WG]

Originally posted by Jan Reimers
We've strengthened every area of our team--at least to some extent--except for kickoff returns. Rogers, thankfully, is gone, but unless I missed it, we really haven't come up with a true KO returner.

How do you figure?

OL will be the same w/ less depth if we don't sign someone soon. The starters will have another year of play together under their belts which will be big, so that may qualify your statement there.

On Lindell v. Hollis, I think many would take issue w/ that. Hollis has a better and longer track record, while Lindell's biggest, and likely only positive over Hollis is a slightly deeper kick. Accuracy goes to Hollis however.

QB is the same.

RB is the same.

WRs, we lost Price, which most seem to think is a loss, although I'll say that it's a wash w/ Reed. Either way, we don't have the depth we had last season at WR, at least not yet.

TE, we have Moore, but we had him last year too only now we don't have JR.

FBs, ehh, a wash probably. We swapped out receiving FB for blocking ones. Different systems...

On D, our secondary is identical. Reese isn't going to upgrade anything.

Posey for Newman, the jury's out there for sure until Posey puts up something for the second season in his 7 year career.

Spikes is really the biggest upgrade and will be huge. But other than that, I'm just not sharing the notion that somehow we've "upgraded" everywhere. There are changes for sure, but "upgrades", we heard the same about Robinson and he was a significant downgrade. If Posey's the same, it will hurt us.

Adams, I see too many people looking at the Adams of '99 instead of the Adams of last season. Sure, he'll be an upgrade at what our biggest defensive issue was last year, our rushing D. But he's a plug and that's it. He has no pass rush, or nothing significant. He's clearly slower than he was in '99 by a fair margin for anyone who actually watched him in particular play last year.

And our hopes for an upgrade at the "other DE position" are linked to either Jones being completely healthy amidst rumors of retirement now and/or McKenzie all of a sudden playing like he did 4, 5, and 6 seasons ago, also after overcoming an injury following two seasons of limited playing time and subpar performances.

So Spikes, yes.
Adams, yes given our lack of a DT last year.
Posey, maybe, jury's out.

Other than that, we haven't really "upgraded" anywhere. DT and LBs, that's it.

STs, we'll see. But remember when we signed Watson? I questioned that move then and he sucked! As a returner, which is why we brought him here, and especially as a DB.

So I'll be a believer when it all happens.

I still see us at 12-4 if managed properly, as bad as 9-7 if not. If we were to have more than one injury to our OL, I can easily see us at 7-8 or 8-8 coupled w/ some coaching errors/general bumbling.

But we've taken serious hits to our depth at WR, OL, and possibly even TE which could very seriously impact our bid for the division and conference titles.

With all the bucks we have on the books, I'd like to have seen a decent OL depth signing or an OL draftee in rounds 2 or 3. I don't think the DE situation is as dire as we may think b/c there are 3 or 4 options that we're hoping for to work out.

Irons, Jones, McKenzie, and/or Kelsay or Denney although my hopes for Jones are dimishing barring the infusion of some good news regarding Jones' progress in healing his injury of which there's been none. Instead, we're hearing rumors of his retiring, which I can see given the very blatant lack of good news regarding his progress. I.e., the talk is starting to at least make some sense although the news isn't particularly good. I'm also not big on Kelsay or Denney as you know. McK, he may be an average DE but I wouldn't expect more out of him. He may fit the scheme better than CA did simply due to his speed style instead of CA's muscle style.

But anyway, to say that we've improved everywhere is a bit much, don't you think?

Other than Spikes and Adams, we signed no marquee or even close to name players. Jett is and always has been a 3rd WR who's entire performance has been based on speed. If this latest injury of his, combined w/ his age, 32/33 this season, is not a factor, then he'll be lucky. At that age, speed players begin to slow down. Since that's what his success has been predicated on, it would hinder his utility to us as a team and limit his effectiveness. That's why I thought WRs like Q. Ismael or Stokes would have been better. They know how to run routes and do other things that flat out burn and their skillsets are not tied to one thing and one thing only, namely speed which deteriorates w/ age/injury.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Thanks Jan. :rolleyes:

I think they are counting on Shaw, Aiken, or maybe even Simonton.

[WG]

Yeah, I'm sure we'll find a decent returner in the bunch. That's one thing I'm hopeful of, but we've gotten burned in the past few years w/ the same types of signings that turn out to be busts.

One of the things that concerns me is all the players coming off of injuries or who have significant injury histories who are expected to make this team:

McKenzie
Jones
Reese
Jett
Gary
Sydney

When you consider that we may likely count on 3 or 4 of them for significant contributions, it does raise an eyebrow. 5 or all 6 may be "next in line" to start given injuries to their respective starters and 3 or 4 may vie for starting spots seriously.

[Patrick76777]

Actually, I think all 6 of those players could not play a down and we really wouldn’t miss a beat.

[Patrick76777]

Well, Maybe a little.

[WG]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
Actually, I think all 6 of those players could not play a down and we really wouldn’t miss a beat.

I agree! So why then is there all this hype about Jones and McKenzie?? and Jett?

[Patrick76777]

I hope Jones can be something. I'm hoping for him. The other two are just garbage. Although I'd love to see Jett fill a sort of James Lofton roll on this team, but I don't see it happening.

[Patrick76777]

McKenzie is just Chidi with better hair.

[WG]

BTW 76,

Why didn't we bring in Doug Brzezinski? Do ya think he may have played backup G for us instead of for the Panthers! Gee!

Oh wait, I think I know why we didn't look at him; he's never missed a game in his career. That's it! Sorry...

How about Dave Wohlabaugh? Did we show any interest in him? Nahhhh, too many starts under his belt at the age of 31/32. :rolleyes:

How about Dave Fiore? Did we ask him to come for a visit?

Heath Irwin?

Tom Nutten?

Ben Lynch?

Has Floyd Wedderburn been signed? I have no idea what he's done.

Anyway, there were plenty of reasonably priced options out there and we didn't seem to even look at them. Given our situation, I'd say that borders on neglect.

[WG]

Instead, we gotta rely on 5th and 7th round draft pick and undrafted rookies or 2nd year guys who haven't taken a snap in the pros!

Not to mention, the guys above mostly don't qualify b/c they haven't been injured either ever or recently.

[Patrick76777]

Maybe the forgot!

[WG]

Yeah, maybe...

LOL

Maybe he somehow knows thru extrasensory skills that we are going to have an injury free season on the OL too.

[Jan Reimers]

Wys, I do think we've upgraded many areas - Gash at FB, Gary at RB, Campbell as a blocking TE. We've tried to compensate for the loss of Price with Shaw, Jett, Aiken to battle for spots behind Reed.

Besides TKO, Posey, and Adams, we've added veteran depth on D with Sydney and Reese. We've stockpiled DEs in the hope that at least one will emerge.

STs should generally be better, as Shaw is a seasoned punt returner, McGhee was good in college, and Crowell and Haggan may help coverage.

My point was we've at least tried to improve those areas most in need of improvement, but seemed to have ignored kick returner, which is so vital to good field position.

[Patrick76777]

I think we'll be fine at O-line.

[Earthquake Enyart]

I can't beleive Floyd Wedderburn is still out there. :eek:

[WG]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
I think we'll be fine at O-line.

You do 76!! Well just b/c you "think so", that's good enough for me! Screw reason!

:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Jan Reimers
Wys, I do think we've upgraded many areas - Gash at FB, Gary at RB, Campbell as a blocking TE. We've tried to compensate for the loss of Price with Shaw, Jett, Aiken to battle for spots behind Reed.

Besides TKO, Posey, and Adams, we've added veteran depth on D with Sydney and Reese. We've stockpiled DEs in the hope that at least one will emerge.

STs should generally be better, as Shaw is a seasoned punt returner, McGhee was good in college, and Crowell and Haggan may help coverage.

My point was we've at least tried to improve those areas most in need of improvement, but seemed to have ignored kick returner, which is so vital to good field position.

Jan,

I wouldn't call Gash over Centers an upgrade, neither Campbell for JR, or Gary either. Gary's had one good season amongst 3 other completely insignificant ones and has battled injuries for almost his entire stint in the NFL. Campbell only started regularly last season and for a regular starter didn't post exceptional numbers by any stretch; 25 for 179. He may block better, but I guarantee you he's no upgrade in blocking over Moore. Gash is in a completely different role than Centers, so it's difficult to say whether he's an 'upgrade' or not. It's just different.

You totally overestimate the impact that Reese and Sydney will have.

As to our DEs, we can have 20 of them, but if none of them step up, who cares how many we carry. As of now, we're no better off at that "other DE position" than we were last year. Rumors are that Jones is on the verge of retirement and there's been no news to indicate that that may not happen. McKenzie is OK but has never been anything better than average or perhaps a tad bit better in a good season, less than average otherwise. I certainly don't think either is a shoe in for a gimme 'upgrade.'

Shaw may be a decent punt returner, but then again, he may not be. Remember when we brought Watson here? He was 5th in the AFC before sucking bigtime when he got here.

McGahee, Haggan, and Crowell won't be factors this season.

Again, what we "tried" to do and what was actually done are two different things in this case.

As I said, the only real upgrade is Spikes, again, which will be huge, but he can't play two positions, DE and OLB. He's only one guy. Adams will plug a hole but clearly isn't the Adams that most remember. Posey, who knows.

But we lost precious WR depth, OL depth, we have no backup receiving TE, we have the exact same DE quandary that we had a year ago.

I just think more could have been done. EE jests at the mention of Wedderburn, but he's got experience along w/ all those others that I mentioned, yet we sign a guy w/ only nominal experience and who isn't that good. Surely not good enough to give us all the confidence that we'd need of Brown or Sullivan went down.

We're thin on O, have a DE issue, and are thin at LB too.

That may not be a factor, or it could be a huge one. We'll have to wait and see. Again, I simply think that signing an OG w/ experience for a reasonable price wouldn't have been impossible.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Wys Guy

I wouldn't call Gash over Centers an upgrade, neither Campbell for JR, or Gary either. Gary's had one good season amongst 3 other completely insignificant ones and has battled injuries for almost his entire stint in the NFL. Campbell only started regularly last season and for a regular starter didn't post exceptional numbers by any stretch; 25 for 179. He may block better, but I guarantee you he's no upgrade in blocking over Moore. Gash is in a completely different role than Centers, so it's difficult to say whether he's an 'upgrade' or not. It's just different.

You totally overestimate the impact that Reese and Sydney will have.

As to our DEs, we can have 20 of them, but if none of them step up, who cares how many we carry. As of now, we're no better off at that "other DE position" than we were last year. Rumors are that Jones is on the verge of retirement and there's been no news to indicate that that may not happen. McKenzie is OK but has never been anything better than average or perhaps a tad bit better in a good season, less than average otherwise. I certainly don't think either is a shoe in for a gimme 'upgrade.'

Shaw may be a decent punt returner, but then again, he may not be. Remember when we brought Watson here? He was 5th in the AFC before sucking bigtime when he got here.

McGahee, Haggan, and Crowell won't be factors this season.

Again, what we "tried" to do and what was actually done are two different things in this case.

As I said, the only real upgrade is Spikes, again, which will be huge, but he can't play two positions, DE and OLB. He's only one guy. Adams will plug a hole but clearly isn't the Adams that most remember. Posey, who knows.

But we lost precious WR depth, OL depth, we have no backup receiving TE, we have the exact same DE quandary that we had a year ago.

I just think more could have been done. EE jests at the mention of Wedderburn, but he's got experience along w/ all those others that I mentioned, yet we sign a guy w/ only nominal experience and who isn't that good. Surely not good enough to give us all the confidence that we'd need of Brown or Sullivan went down.

We're thin on O, have a DE issue, and are thin at LB too.

That may not be a factor, or it could be a huge one. We'll have to wait and see. Again, I simply think that signing an OG w/ experience for a reasonable price wouldn't have been impossible.

OK, I'll get serious here:

Gash and Campbell are upgrades for the running game. Campbell is way bigger than Moore. Gary will fill the Centers roll, and both he and Gash can catch.

Reese and Sydney? You can never have enough DB's. They'll be solid in the nickle and dime and are good depth.

I'll give you DE's. Denny, Kelsay, and/or McKenzie have to come up big. But I like our chances there.

As long as Danny Smith is here, we may never have decent special teams. Guys like Reese, Sydney and Spoon will be here so our cover teams should be better. We have no where to go but up in the return game.

I think Posey will work out and be an "upgrade". As I said earlier, Gash, Campbell, and Gary will up grade the O in the running game with out losing anything in the passing game. Remember Moore was dinged up most of last year. He will catch more passes this year. I feel depth is way better on the DL, LB's, , RB's, WR's and DB's. OL is more or less the the same.

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


You do 76!! Well just b/c you "think so", that's good enough for me! Screw reason!

:rolleyes:





You don't think our line is good enough. Well just b/c you "think so", that's good enough for me! Screw the guys in charge!

I'm rolling my eyes.

[Jan Reimers]

Thanks, EE, for pointing out that Gash, Gary and Campbell are upgrades in the power running game that the Bills are obviously adopting.

I feel good about our offense, except for depth on the line. On D, we're real good at DT, LB and CB. We've got enough talent at DE that someone will emerge. Wire will only get better at SS. We may need help at FS - not sure if PP or Reese are long term solutions. Reese will at least push PP.

We don't have All Pros at every position, but who does? I think we're improved over last year, however, particularly if you accept that we're changing our offense.

[TedMock]

I do agree with Wys regarding the lack of OL depth. I sure hope the coaches are right with what they see in the young guys we have. As strange as this sounds, I think Adams may be the biggest upgrade. He can't rush the passer and Wys is correct in saying "he's just a plug" but I think that's exactly what we needed. I think Edwards got better and will be solid in the rotation but we lacked that true "Plug". Obviously I think Spikes was a huge pick up and as far as Posey vs. Newman....don't know. Posey may not be better but hopefully he fits into this system better and good luck to Newman, hopefully he fits better this year......I can't believe I bought the Newman Jersey! DB's, you really cannot have enough and even if they're not "upgrades" sometimes locker room presence and leadership are more important than on the field stats. Gash and Centers are both great AT WHAT THEY DO. Gash isn't better than Centers but he is a better blocker so hopefully we utilize what we've got. Same deas as Campbell vs. JR. It'll be interesting.

[WG]

Originally posted by Patrick76777



You don't think our line is good enough. Well just b/c you "think so", that's good enough for me! Screw the guys in charge!

I'm rolling my eyes.

See, again, part of the problem is that you don't read what I write prior to commenting on my positions.

My position: We will have one of the best 3-5 OLs in the league this year! Starting OLs that is! At present, I dare say we're in the middle of the stack, at best, in terms of depth.

I.e., what that means is that we'll be fine as long as we really don't have any OL injuries. May happen, but the odds are that it will not. If we do, all that's gonna happen is that it's gonna give you "Bledsoe's poop doesn't stink" supporters another excuse this year for what will end up being a problematic situation.

[Patrick76777]

We didn’t need an excuse last year. And I don’t think we’ll need one for this year.

[WG]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart


OK, I'll get serious here:

Gash and Campbell are upgrades for the running game. Campbell is way bigger than Moore. Gary will fill the Centers roll, and both he and Gash can catch.

Reese and Sydney? You can never have enough DB's. They'll be solid in the nickle and dime and are good depth.

I'll give you DE's. Denny, Kelsay, and/or McKenzie have to come up big. But I like our chances there.

As long as Danny Smith is here, we may never have decent special teams. Guys like Reese, Sydney and Spoon will be here so our cover teams should be better. We have no where to go but up in the return game.

I think Posey will work out and be an "upgrade". As I said earlier, Gash, Campbell, and Gary will up grade the O in the running game with out losing anything in the passing game. Remember Moore was dinged up most of last year. He will catch more passes this year. I feel depth is way better on the DL, LB's, , RB's, WR's and DB's. OL is more or less the the same.

OK, now my turn. :D

You said, "Campbell is way bigger than Moore."

Fact: Not so. Moore is 6'2"/250 and Campbell is 6'6"/255. He's only very marginally bigger and that is due largely to height, not weight, which doesn't necessarily help when blocking; and I'll take Moore head-to-head any day of the week in terms of blocking from the TE position. He's a LOT stockier and he's extremely strong. We didn't use him last season properly as we were allergic to the run. Moore has been an outstanding blocker all of his career. He can catch too in spite of the fact that he wasn't given much opportunity last year.

"Gary will fill the Centers roll"

If Gary stays healthy all season, then I'll be happy.

"Reese and Sydney? You can never have enough DB's. They'll be solid in the nickle and dime and are good depth."

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Sydney may not even be on the team opening day. We have plenty of depth w/ this "all star" signing of McGee. We have AW, NC, Thomas (who will be our nickle back), McGee, and Bostic who has improved significantly over his first two years. We're only likely gonna carry 5 CBs. All of a sudden you're talking as if Sydney is anything. He's a career backup!

Reese, same thing for the most part. Sure he started last season, but he certainly wasn't anything short of extremely mediocre w/ 0 sacks and 0 INTs. What, all of a sudden he's an all-pro? I don't get your optimism that this is anything but filler for this year. As well, if he makes the team, IMO it'll only be b/c we really don't have enough Ss to cut any.

"I'll give you DE's. Denny, Kelsay, and/or McKenzie have to come up big. But I like our chances there."

Possibly, but let's not pencil in a bunch of Pro-Bowl players when we have a guy who played like crap last season and couldn't take the job from a bunch of undrafted or late round players for a position which we sorely needed to fill, a rookie, and a guy coming off injury who hasn't done squat in several seasons, eh.

No matter how you slice it, I simply don't see how this is the "automatic upgrade" that you are defending here. In fact, I'd wager a LOT of ZBs that Irons is gonna be the guy there.

"As long as Danny Smith is here, we may never have decent special teams. Guys like Reese, Sydney and Spoon will be here so our cover teams should be better. We have no where to go but up in the return game."

Again, possibly, and the odds are good that we'll improve from our mediocre to fair ranking in that area. Yet, it's no given. Every year since TD's gotten here we've signed STs players who are "supposed to upgrade the STs"! Have we seen it?

"I think Posey will work out and be an "upgrade"."

You think! We don't know. I think Posey's gonna be very average. So average that he won't do anything special. I'll be happy if he is average based on his career performance lines.

"As I said earlier, Gash, Campbell, and Gary will up grade the O in the running game with out losing anything in the passing game."

Gash may not even start over Crosby, you don't know. Campbell and Gary will be backups. If we're gonna run Henry more, then I suspect, and hope, that he becomes a dual threat out of the backfield to keep Ds on their toes. If we bring in Gary every time we plan on throwing the ball, that will tip Ds off which we can really do w/o given last year's track record on offense. I don't know how you consider that several backups will be a huge upgrade.

"Remember Moore was dinged up most of last year. He will catch more passes this year."

Moore was fine for most of the season. He played in 14 games. I have no idea what you're talking about here. He wasn't used primarily b/c of Gilbride's lame game-planning and general offense involving 75% passing plays and b/c the TE simply wasn't a large part of our O last year. 48 catches between JR and Moore combined.

"I feel depth is way better on the DL, LB's, , RB's, WR's and DB's. OL is more or less the the same."

I don't know how you can say depth is better at WR, LB, or DL. All we had last year was depth at DL. What we were missing was a decent starter at one DT and DE. Our starters are improved at those two spots, but depth is ~ the same. All the same players who started last year on the DL will mostly be back. Heck, Irons, a backup last year, may in fact be the starter at DE.

WR, we had Moulds, Price, and Reed last year w/ Johnson as #4 who went completely unused. This year we have Moulds and Reed, w/ who, Aiken, Jett, Shaw as our #3? There's no way on earth that this year's depth is better than last year's!

LB's: what? The only practical addition to our depth is Crowell who's a rookie. That's it. After that all we have is more rookies drafted later or signed as FAs. I'm just as concerned if Fletcher or Spikes goes down as I would have been last year. Of course last year we had Robinson starting, so again, the starters are incredibly improved simply by adding Spikes. Spoon was horrible in relief of Cowart when he got hurt.

What? Does the 7th rounder Haggan excite you? Stevenson, Polk, or Denman? Gimme a break. That's why I wanted to draft EJ Henderson.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Moore isn't 250. You ever see him in person? Campbell is much bigger.

I'm not sure they're sold on Thomas as the nickel back. Reese and Sydney were good pickups. Can you even name a backup S from last year?

I'm not saying that Kelsay and McKensie are Pro Bowlers, but they're better than what we had last year.

With better depth at LB and DB, the ST's should be better.

I say Posey will work out, you don't. We'll see.

As far as personel tipping off run or pass, wtf do you think the opponents thought when Centers was in the game? At least Gary is a running threat that Centers wasn't.

I don't know what you see in Irons. He may not make opening day.

[ryven]

antonio brown could do the job