Here's a little something for all of you who know that Travis Brown isn't good:

[WG]

You know more than the coaches!

Congratulations!!!

:bravo:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bills/home.htm

"The Bills plan on giving quarterback Travis Brown a lot of playing time this summer. The reasons are twofold: Rest Drew Bledsoe's arm and find out definitively if Brown can fill the No. 2 role better than eight-year veteran Alex Van Pelt. Said offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride: "We've got to find out if he can move up and prove he's capable of holding onto the second spot. That's in no way, shape or form a denunciation of Alex. But we just need to find out." The Bills like Brown's size (6-3, 212) and he's shown good arm strength this spring."

So congratulations to all of you who already know more than the FO and coaches!

;)

[mackey789]

ummm ok

[Patrick76777]

Wys, you think you do. See the O-line post.

[WG]

No 76, I just don't think that a bunch of untested first and second year players drafted in the 7th round or even undrafted are sufficient to replace what we have as starters this year should the situation come to that.

Unlike you I might add. I like to see some track record of performance prior to stating that our OL (or any position for that matter) depth is "better than last year's" or even simply sufficient. Again, unlike you who are apparently ready to pencil all of those rookies in to replace JJ, Brown, Teague, Sullivan, and MW w/o losing a beat! Heck, most of the guys we have won't even be on the team come September and I'll bet that you can't name the ones who will make it other than Price, Sobieski, and Pucillo. Pucillo is a 7th rounder in his 2nd season. Impressive? Sobieski is a 5th round rookie. Impressive as a backup for this season? Price is the only depth player we have and he's primarily a T.

Keep tryin' 76! Sooner or later if you say it enough maybe it'll come true...

:D

BTW, are you impressed w/ those players as depth other than Price?

I have no idea why I'm askin'! You won't answer that...

:rolleyes:

[WG]

Besides, what's the matter? Upset that they're gonna actually look at Brown and that he may end up being halfway decent or even better?

:)

I'll be some are.

[LtBillsFan66]

WOW. Travis Brown is great! This thread proved it. He is way better than Montana or Unitas ever was.

[Patrick76777]

Actually I just like ****** with you! It’s kinda like a hobby for me.


I’ve got no problem with Brown being ahead of AVP. As long as he can prove he can handle it.


I’m just not going to pretend to be an expert on Backup guards and QB’s in the NFL. There was a time that I’d discuss this all day! But not anymore.

[WG]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
Actually I just like ****** with you! It’s kinda like a hobby for me.


I’ve got no problem with Brown being ahead of AVP. As long as he can prove he can handle it.


I’m just not going to pretend to be an expert on Backup guards and QB’s in the NFL. There was a time that I’d discuss this all day! But not anymore.

LOL

Yeah, and you know I love to dish it back, eh. What would these boards be like if we all agreed, eh.

I'm glad you don't have a problem w/ Brown being ahead of AVP. It may happen this season... :D

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

I'll see if I can find the BZ expert on backup Guards...

I think it's Jaded!

[Tatonka]

i like TB.

[TypicalBill]

Originally posted by Tatonka
i like TB.


Thanks :bravo:

[lordofgun]

Who hates Travis Brown? I've never seen one person say that...EVER!

[Jan Reimers]

Brown is younger, bigger, and stronger-armed than AVP, and therefore a good #2 candidate. Don't think he's #1 material, however, and thus the question becomes: When do we begin looking at a replacement for Drew, who would appear to have several years left. I would say in the next couple of drafts.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Tatonka
i like TB.

who are you?







:jk:

[Earthquake Enyart]

Right Jan. The question then becomes: when we do draft the QB of the future, who goes... AVP or TB?

[JefftheBillsfan]

I dont see whats wrong with giving Brown a shot.

[Jan Reimers]

I just don't want to wander through another Collins/Johnson/Flutie nuclear winter, which was caused by Kelly's early retirement, bad personnel decisions, and a general lack of foresight. Bills' brass should know by now if Brown is a legitimate #1 candidate, and if not, must begin thinking of the future.

[Voltron]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
What would these boards be like if we all agreed, eh.




FINHAVEN

:D

[TedMock]

I haven't seen enough of Brown to give an opinion either way. That one game he played 2 years ago wasn't good, wasn't bad. I fully support the kid as long as he's a Bill. I like AVP as backup but I also know we can't ride him to the dance. If TB is the future and he's good then move him to number 2. He's younger and has to have a stronger arm than AVP....who doesn't? Maybe this undrafted kid goes to number 3 and we cut AVP's $1M salary. Who knows? I will say that I like AVP's head. He manages the game well and is very efficient. He just can't open it up for you. I'd like to see him hang around. If we cut him I think he retires. He was willing to take less $ than the league would allow! IMO he likes the area and would have no hard feelings.

[WG]

Originally posted by lordofgun
Who hates Travis Brown? I've never seen one person say that...EVER!

What are you talking about? You ain't lookin' then. :D

Every time I (or others) even remotely mention Brown, there's a host of people who say he sucks and should be cut in favor of totally unproven rookies. The threads are there...

I'm glad they're planning on taking a peek however. Brown does have good size, mechanics, and some naturals that don't appear to be teachable.

[WG]

Originally posted by Jan Reimers
Brown is younger, bigger, and stronger-armed than AVP, and therefore a good #2 candidate. Don't think he's #1 material, however, and thus the question becomes: When do we begin looking at a replacement for Drew, who would appear to have several years left. I would say in the next couple of drafts.

Perhaps. But we don't know and that's the point.

If teams simply kept #2/#3 QBs as backups w/o ever giving them a shot, then QBs like:

Favre
Holcombe
Green
Warner
Brooks
Brady
Gannon
Maddux

and many others would never have come about. Very often there's an outstanding QB sitting in the wings that isn't being used by his primary team. RBs too. Just look at Holmes e.g.

The bottom line is that we simply don't know until a QB has some playing time w/ a first unit. Some players practice horribly and show up in spades for games. Others the opposite. Practice isn't always a good indicator, otherwise all these favorable reportst that we hear about each starter during TC and PS would be completely true and we'd have an outstanding team every year.

[Patrick76777]

A few of those guys were high Draft picks that were expected to be good.

Favre
Maddux

[WG]

Originally posted by TedMock
I haven't seen enough of Brown to give an opinion either way. That one game he played 2 years ago wasn't good, wasn't bad. I fully support the kid as long as he's a Bill. I like AVP as backup but I also know we can't ride him to the dance. If TB is the future and he's good then move him to number 2. He's younger and has to have a stronger arm than AVP....who doesn't? Maybe this undrafted kid goes to number 3 and we cut AVP's $1M salary. Who knows? I will say that I like AVP's head. He manages the game well and is very efficient. He just can't open it up for you. I'd like to see him hang around. If we cut him I think he retires. He was willing to take less $ than the league would allow! IMO he likes the area and would have no hard feelings.

All I know is that AVP couldn't move the ball at all in that Miami game, and while Brown didn't pitch a game w/ all-star numbers, he at least moved the team which AVP couldn't do.

He also exhibited some extremely nice poise which for a rookie or young player w/o any experience at all, showed a LOT. He didn't get rattled, his throws were perfect touch and about as accurate as a QB can throw.

To me, that's deserving of at least a serious look w/ the first unit for 2 or 3 PS games. We know what Drew can do. He doesn't need the reps. No more practice is gonna make him quit throwing those dumb INTs. So let's give Brown a shot.

Many of us may be pleasantly surprised...

As to AVP, I can understand the "fan favoratism" and all, but come on, if it were to come down to AVP, we could pack the season in. It would be like Kelly in his last season; no pass beyond 40 yards on the fly or something not too far from that. Our deep game would not exist. Bledsoe couldn't have a backup w/ a more opposite set of skills than VP.

Van Pelt is a poor man's, very, very poor, Brady!

[WG]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
A few of those guys were high Draft picks that were expected to be good.

Favre
Maddux

Not the point. Favre sat around in Atlanta as a 2nd rounder. I don't think the Falcons expected him to do jack or they wouldn't have traded him to the Pack for hardly anything at all. I remember watching him in PS and saying to myself that he was gonna be outstanding. I knew Atlanta had made the wrong choice by keeping George. That was long before George became a total head case as well. Favre would have sat on the bench in Atlanta forever while George was there. Meanwhile, for as long as that could have been, Atlanta would have been missing out on something better w/o knowing. We can't assume that their coaches/GM were idiots.

George was "more highly touted", and by jove, he was gonna be the starter. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Often teams don't look at what may be possible and they only settle for what they have based on perceptions.

Gee, kinda sounds like...

Ahhh, forget it! :D

Maddux too. When has Maddux ever had a legitimate chance to start other than a couple of games in his rookie season??

He hasn't! Yet, when given the opp, look at the results! He was on pace for near 30 TDs last season if he had started all 16 games.

Thanks for reinforcing the point for me.

[Turf]

They're making the right move. They have to see what the guy's got.
Alex will never be #1, and is probably eating his way off the roster. Travis has shown some promise and they need to keep him to groom as a #2 or move on, hoping he might become a #1 someday. If not, then they have to get another QB.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
You know more than the coaches!

Congratulations!!!

:bravo:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bills/home.htm

"The Bills plan on giving quarterback Travis Brown a lot of playing time this summer. The reasons are twofold: Rest Drew Bledsoe's arm and find out definitively if Brown can fill the No. 2 role better than eight-year veteran Alex Van Pelt. Said offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride: "We've got to find out if he can move up and prove he's capable of holding onto the second spot. That's in no way, shape or form a denunciation of Alex. But we just need to find out." The Bills like Brown's size (6-3, 212) and he's shown good arm strength this spring."

So congratulations to all of you who already know more than the FO and coaches!

;)


I have absolutly no problem with Brown being our # 2. I would have however not been happy with him as our #1 last year. Whats with this you know more about the coaches stuff?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


What are you talking about? You ain't lookin' then. :D

Every time I (or others) even remotely mention Brown, there's a host of people who say he sucks and should be cut in favor of totally unproven rookies. The threads are there...

I'm glad they're planning on taking a peek however. Brown does have good size, mechanics, and some naturals that don't appear to be teachable.

I have never said I hated Brown just that I wouldn't have been comfortable with him as our starting QB last or this season.

[WG]

Just bein' somewhat light TT.

Don't take it all personally. There are a few people who've openly stated that Brown sucks and should be cut, so it's more aimed at them anyway.

Thin skinned? Don't take it personally if it doesn't apply, eh.

TH,

Totally agree. If it bears out that Brown can't find an open receiver if he slapped him upside the head, then we need to find that out too to make room for another as you said.

I have no idea how good Brown will be. But if we base it on the limited action we've seen him in, there's no denying that he played much more maturely, from a QB perspective, than most starters let alone backups. He demonstrated poise like I've never seen from a first time playing, and not even as a starter. He was outrageously accurate and showed great touch and finesse.

I merely think he's earned a shot at showing the team, media, and fans what he can do w/ the first unit.

Suppose he does appear to be very, very good. Then what?

I dare say that many wouldn't want to get rid of Drew, even if traded, and his high price tag simply b/c he's Drew.

I realize there're discrepancies in how everyone views how good Drew really is, but to argue that he's perfect is foolish. He certainly has his shortcomings and if that can be improved upon, especially for less expensive, then I'd take that improvement any day of the week. And improvement should be measured in how it impacts the team, not simply fan approval.

I know that many here think Drew's better than Brady, but the record says that the team, the Pats that is, played better under Brady than under Drew. That should mean a whole lot more than having a recognizable name at QB although I often seriously question whether or not it does, both here and around the league.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
Just bein' somewhat light TT.

Don't take it all personally. There are a few people who've openly stated that Brown sucks and should be cut, so it's more aimed at them anyway.

Thin skinned? Don't take it personally if it doesn't apply, eh.



Got ya!

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Not the point. Favre sat around in Atlanta as a 2nd rounder. I don't think the Falcons expected him to do jack or they wouldn't have traded him to the Pack for hardly anything at all. I remember watching him in PS and saying to myself that he was gonna be outstanding. I knew Atlanta had made the wrong choice by keeping George. That was long before George became a total head case as well. Favre would have sat on the bench in Atlanta forever while George was there. Meanwhile, for as long as that could have been, Atlanta would have been missing out on something better w/o knowing. We can't assume that their coaches/GM were idiots.

George was "more highly touted", and by jove, he was gonna be the starter. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Often teams don't look at what may be possible and they only settle for what they have based on perceptions.

Gee, kinda sounds like...

Ahhh, forget it! :D

Maddux too. When has Maddux ever had a legitimate chance to start other than a couple of games in his rookie season??

He hasn't! Yet, when given the opp, look at the results! He was on pace for near 30 TDs last season if he had started all 16 games.

Thanks for reinforcing the point for me.


What are you talking about. These guys were High Draft choices. I'm simply saying that you can't lump them in with Warner and Brown (undrafted FA's) it's totally different. If you're a QB drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, someone thought you were good at one point in time. Just because Atlanta is stupid, doesn't make your point.

I just don't think those 2 are the "diamonds in the rough" that you make them out to be. Maddox floated around for almost 10 years before he finally showed what he can do.

[The_Philster]

I don't think anyone hates Travis Brown. We just aren't all as sold on him as you are, Wys.

[HenryRules]

I've been one that says we need to replace TB. Reason being is that I think AVP is a solid backup and I'm not sold on TB as a starter for the future. If we didn't already have AVP, I'd think keeping TB would be a great idea. I don't see the point in having two QB's on the roster that will peak as backups.

This statement by Gilbride is also no different than what the coaching staff was saying before TC last year. The fact that they're still saying the same thing one year later (trying to find out if he's good enough) is not a good reflection on Travis Brown IMO.

[TedMock]

Wys, I'm on board. Like I said, I like AVP but it ain't happenin' with him. I think he's smart but just not what we need for several games in a row if Drew's out. If TB's looking good then move him up the chart. I'm not sure what his arm strength is like but if it is indeed strong then working behind Bledsoe for a few years is great for him. Who knows, Young worked behind Montana and Garcia behind Young in SF. You also mentioned Green and Warner etc.. This kid may be the real deal and at number 2 he'll at least get some time in the season. We lose that "coach" in AVP if he's cut which can hurt. The guy is intelligent just not athletically gifted. He's also making too much money for what he does.

[TedMock]

One more thing to look at. TB is 25 years old, 6'3" & 215lbs. AVP is 33 years old, 6'1" & 220lbs. Brown definitely needs to gain a few pounds and AVP needs to lose a few.

[Throne Logic]

If Brown beats out AVP for the #2 spot, I don't expect to see AVP on the roster come September.

[Turf]

I'll bet you any money Alex is pushing 245 Lbs the last time I saw a pic of him, not 220.

[Ð]

You're right Wys.

Medically speaking, Travis Brown is # 2 :up:

[TigerJ]

I don't mind Travis Brown getting a shot to be #2. AVP's been a reliable backup, but his age is a definite issue. He has no upside at this point in time. His arm and mobility will only go downhill from here. If Brown plays at #2 this year, then I think Buffalo asks AVP to retire after the season. Then Buffalo starts looking for the proverbial QB of the future to fill the third spot.

[WG]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
Maddox floated around for almost 10 years before he finally showed what he can do.

Precisely 76!! He "floated around" b/c no one gave him the chance to start regardless of his high draft position.


Originally posted by The_Philster
I don't think anyone hates Travis Brown. We just aren't all as sold on him as you are, Wys.

I'm not sold on him, but others have said we should cut him. He demonstrated some very good if not excellent arm strength in that 3 Qs of the Miami game, he showed accuracy better than Drew or AVP, he showed poise which was completely uncharacteristic of first time playing QBs and not characteristic of many starters.

I simply think those things earned him a second look and we'd be unfair to ourselves as a team to not at least see what he can do w/ the first unit.

You and others can say what you want about "the chances he's been given", but the fact of the matter is that he wasn't given any prior to Drew's arrival and since then no one has been given significant time w/ the first unit other than Drew.

So say what you want, but until I see him lineup w/ the first unit several times and bomb, I'm not ready to toss him! Suppose he lights things up? Then what? I don't care if he was the last player signed in the history of the NFL, if he can do what Drew does passing wise w/o making all the key errors, then heck, let's start him or anyone else who can do that.

If we simply go by what position players are drafted in then what's the point. Many a player, not only QBs, have come from 6th or 7th rounds or even undrafted to become stars! After the draft, which round the player was drafted in should be a footnote, not the indicator for hope that many GMs see it as.

That's why I'm hard on Drew. Everyone raves about his collegiate accolades and talks about him as if he's a first rounder, but when it comes down to nuts and bolts, if you're gonna be honest, his career has been fairly mediocre!

13/16 Piss Poor
15/15 Below Average
17/13 Average if that
19/21 Below Average
20/14 Average
24/15 Above Average but not stellar, esp. given the yardage thrown for
25/27 Average; too many INTs for better
27/15 Very good
28/15 Very good

Never 30+ TDs in a season. The only way to rate Drew as anything above average is to look at meaningless indicators such as attempts, completions in terms of their raw numbers and yardage w/o looking at TD production in conjunction w/ that!

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Precisely 76!! He "floated around" b/c no one gave him the chance to start regardless of his high draft position.






I disagree. He had a few shots. And wasn’t good enough. But the potential was there. That’s what’s different.

[casdhf]

Wys loves potential, ask RJ and Shawn Bryson.

[TedMock]

Maddox got screwed by Dan Reeves. There was no way he'd ever start over Elway who still had several years left. Reeves and Elway hated eachother, it was no secret. What other reason than a big F-you would you draft an underclassman in the first round when you have John friggin Elway. It was stupid all around and done in spite. That pick never fit a need or "best available". I'd understand it if either was the case.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Maddox also got a second shot with Reeves when Reeves was the Giants HC. Maddox had plenty of chances, even including XFL. Plus who says he's any good anyhow? He's average at best and has yet to make a full season without being hurt.

Geez wys, you gonna put Maddox next to the Chandler / Blake wing you are building in the HOF?

[TedMock]

I agree there. He actually tore up the XFL (Big deal). I don't think he ever should've left early knowing Denver was taking him. I also don't put him anywhere better than "slightly above average". I just think that he was brought into a hostile, no chance in hell environment.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
I'm not sold on him, but others have said we should cut him. He demonstrated some very good if not excellent arm strength in that 3 Qs of the Miami game, he showed accuracy better than Drew or AVP, he showed poise which was completely uncharacteristic of first time playing QBs and not characteristic of many starters.

Well, my opinion is that we should let the 2nd and 3rd spots be up for grabs. I'm a big fan of AVP but he has to show he can continue to do the job. I think he can still hold the #2 job but I think he could also work in a rotation at #2 like he and Todd Collins did back in 1996 if we have another backup competent enough to do that.