The 3-4 is dead, right? [Archive] - BillsZone.com

TigerJ

12-22-2010, 08:55 PM

I don't think the team is going to run a whole lot of 3-4 the rest of this season, but I do expect they will add more 3-4 personnel in the offseason. I think the Bills will make another go at it next season, maybe keeping the idea of a hybrid available too. I think the pickup of Kevin Heard is a sign the 3-4 is not dead long term.

k-oneputt

12-22-2010, 09:01 PM

They had better get some 3-4 pass rushers then.
That would be Quinn but idk what Nix thinks about his situation.

NOT THE DUDE...

12-22-2010, 09:28 PM

They had better get some 3-4 pass rushers then.
That would be Quinn but idk what Nix thinks about his situation.

i guarantee kerrigan who is a badass will be the pick!

Akhippo

12-22-2010, 09:31 PM

If you get playmakers it shouldnt make to much of a difference. Just get big athletic guys. The NT position is really the only spot that is dependent on a specific type. But even Dallas plays with a light NT.

OpIv37

12-22-2010, 09:47 PM

i think we will run a hybrid as long as we lack the talent to run either the 3-4 or the 4-3 properly...

I fixed it for you.

But, back to the original question: Kyle Williams is good, but not quite good enough to build a defense around. I suspect that the team will pick up some front 7 players who are a better fit for the 3-4 in the off-season and keep moving in that direction. Next year, we will probably still see a bit of a hybrid but with more emphasis on the 3-4, and by the season after that, we should be a consistent 3-4 team (assuming the players we get in the next two off-seasons turn out to be good choices).

Don't Panic

12-23-2010, 06:43 AM

Kyle Williams is good, but not quite good enough to build a defense around. I suspect that the team will pick up some front 7 players who are a better fit for the 3-4 in the off-season and keep moving in that direction. Next year, we will probably still see a bit of a hybrid but with more emphasis on the 3-4, and by the season after that, we should be a consistent 3-4 team (assuming the players we get in the next two off-seasons turn out to be good choices).

Agreed for the most part. Personnel has and will continue to limit us to what we can do. I could see us maintaining a hybrid element from here on. The fact that 3-4 LBs and 4-3 DEs are interchangeable give us the flexibility to run either. With Williams, we have a DT who can go 3-4 or 4-3, giving us added flexibility. I'd like to see us go about 11-12 deep on the front 7, giving us a ton of options in the package we can use there.

Since we've ditched the Cover 2, our DBs are more traditional in their assignments now (heavy man for the CBs, dynamic safeties who can cover, fill the box or blitz). That means we can get by with the same four there, so we can spend most of our attention on the front 7 through the draft and FA.

Extremebillsfan247

12-23-2010, 06:54 AM

I fixed it for you.

But, back to the original question: Kyle Williams is good, but not quite good enough to build a defense around. I suspect that the team will pick up some front 7 players who are a better fit for the 3-4 in the off-season and keep moving in that direction. Next year, we will probably still see a bit of a hybrid but with more emphasis on the 3-4, and by the season after that, we should be a consistent 3-4 team (assuming the players we get in the next two off-seasons turn out to be good choices). Why isn't Williams good enough to build a defense around? what's he got to do, walk on water? He is second in the league among all Dlineman in tackles, 5th in sacks among DTs and NTs in his first year in a 3/4 defense. But he isn't good enough. LMAO...

Crisis

12-23-2010, 07:20 AM

I would've agreed with OP last year, but this year kyle has definitely won me over....i always thought he was a serviceable player but he's definitely working his way into elite if he's not there yet.

Night Train

12-23-2010, 07:25 AM

Most of the D formations lately have been of the 4-3 variety. The Bills were getting trampled by the opposing running game in the 3-4, during the 0-8 start.

OpIv37

12-23-2010, 07:28 AM

Why isn't Williams good enough to build a defense around? what's he got to do, walk on water? He is second in the league among all Dlineman in tackles, 5th in sacks among DTs and NTs in his first year in a 3/4 defense. But he isn't good enough. LMAO...

because he's been that way for what? The last 10 games or so out of a 5 year career?

Look, he's a good player and he's having a great season. He's proven me wrong because I was afraid he'd be out of place in this D. But building a D around him as if he is going to stay that great for the rest of his career is a HUGE gamble.

better days

12-23-2010, 07:37 AM

because he's been that way for what? The last 10 games or so out of a 5 year career?

Look, he's a good player and he's having a great season. He's proven me wrong because I was afraid he'd be out of place in this D. But building a D around him as if he is going to stay that great for the rest of his career is a HUGE gamble.

He was drafted in 06 so this would be his 4th year & his 1st under Gailey. I think he is having a pro bowl year myself. He is definitely a starter in the NFL.

OpIv37

12-23-2010, 07:52 AM

He was drafted in 06 so this would be his 4th year & his 1st under Gailey. I think he is having a pro bowl year myself. He is definitely a starter in the NFL.

06
07
08
09
10

This is his fifth year- count 'em if you have to.

I agree, he is definitely a starter in the NFL. And he looks like one of those guys who can play well in any system. Both of those are huge assets. He's an above average NFL talent, possibly on the verge of becoming elite. But there are only maybe 6 defenders in the league right now that you can really build your D around. I just think doing that right now is still way too risky.

Mahdi

12-23-2010, 07:53 AM

The switch to the 3-4 failed. Our best defender is a 4-3 DT. So, we're going to stick with the 4-3 and build around Kyle Williams, right?
How did the 3-4 fail again? We have been playing 3-4 all year. Kyle has been at the NT position all year.

People have been getting confused because they see Kelsay with his hand on the ground as a DE so pre-snap it looks like a 4-3 but it is not.

Kelsay is just more comfortable with his hand on the ground so they schemed it that way for him. Moats is playing 3-4 OLB on the other side not DE...

The 3-4 is improving and KW is a 3-4 NT now.

Stewie

12-23-2010, 07:58 AM

How did the 3-4 fail again? We have been playing 3-4 all year. Kyle has been at the NT position all year.

People have been getting confused because they see Kelsay with his hand on the ground as a DE so pre-snap it looks like a 4-3 but it is not.

Kelsay is just more comfortable with his hand on the ground so they schemed it that way for him. Moats is playing 3-4 OLB on the other side not DE...

The 3-4 is improving and KW is a 3-4 NT now.

Sorry, no. We have not played a 3-4 all year. Since the bye week, we have lined up in a 4-3 alignment much more often than not.

Thanks for assuming I'm an idiot though. :)

Mahdi

12-23-2010, 08:01 AM

Sorry, no. We have not played a 3-4 all year. Since the bye week, we have lined up in a 4-3 alignment much more often than not.

Thanks for assuming I'm an idiot though. :)
Ok but you're wrong. We have mixed in some 4-3 looks when we're in nickel but for the most part we have played 3-4 with KW at the nose, Stroud and Sp. Johnson at DE.

Never said you were an idiot, just wrong.

Mr. Pink

12-23-2010, 08:07 AM

Sorry, no. We have not played a 3-4 all year. Since the bye week, we have lined up in a 4-3 alignment much more often than not.

Thanks for assuming I'm an idiot though. :)

Haven't you noticed by now Mahdi is the only one who actually watches any of these games?

Mahdi

12-23-2010, 08:17 AM

Haven't you noticed by now Mahdi is the only one who actually watches any of these games?
Well the statement is wrong. Plain and simple. I don't care if he watches the games or not.

Our front 7 is ----------- Stroud ----- KW--------- S. Johnson

-------------------Kelsay ----- Ayodele ------ Poz ------------------- Moats

Like I said, Kelsay just prefers to put his hand in the ground so it looks like a 4-3 sometimes. We do sprinkle in 4-3 but usually only in nickel situations.

Thief

12-23-2010, 09:18 AM

06
07
08
09
10

This is his fifth year- count 'em if you have to.

I agree, he is definitely a starter in the NFL. And he looks like one of those guys who can play well in any system. Both of those are huge assets. He's an above average NFL talent, possibly on the verge of becoming elite. But there are only maybe 6 defenders in the league right now that you can really build your D around. I just think doing that right now is still way too risky.Yes, we should definately keep assessing him until he is out of his prime, and then build around him.

Stewie

12-23-2010, 09:41 AM

There is no way Kyle Williams isn't good enough to build your defense around. You put a true double-team threat next to him, and he would own the backfield.

Philagape

12-23-2010, 09:42 AM

Why isn't Williams good enough to build a defense around? what's he got to do, walk on water?

No, just stop the run.

The past couple games have seen improvement in that area, they're still last in the league, and 26th on a per-carry basis.
Now before someone says KW can't stop the run all by himself, it's not like teams avoid him. Just the opposite, in fact.
Here's how the Bills rank against the run broken down by where opposing RBs run:
Left end, 28th
Left tackle, 28th
Middle/guard, 31st
Right tackle, 14th
Right end, 32nd
Plus, the Bills' opposing RBs run toward the middle/guard 61% of the time (most in the NFL, and the league average is 50%).
Source: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

Now I'm loathe to rely on stat lists like this to make an argument, but it's the only evidence some people will accept, and it backs up what I notice.

KW is a playmaker, no doubt, and he deserves credit for his penetration abilities. Playmaking gets him noticed and gets his name on stat sheets, and he's good at that aspect.
But he's far from a complete NT. He's not a run-clogger, and that's a skill that often doesn't show up on highlight reels and stat sheets. He gets swallowed up too often, and is a significant reason why the Bills' run defense has been so bad for years.

Mahdi

12-23-2010, 10:09 AM

There is no way Kyle Williams isn't good enough to build your defense around. You put a true double-team threat next to him, and he would own the backfield.
I admit that I had my doubts about KW being able to handle the NT duties, but he has more than proven he is capable of being a very good if not PB NT.

Our problems defending the run had more to do with guys not being comfortable in a new defense and weaknesses in the LB corps.

Our DL has played great all year. Our LBs are just learning to fill gaps and be more physical.

Poz is a guy who I have seen evolve into a much more instinctive and physical run defender since the bye week. He is really hitting the LoS hard now and our ability to defend the run has been improving weekly.

We are on a steep learning curve now and things are looking good.

better days

12-23-2010, 12:14 PM

No, just stop the run.

The past couple games have seen improvement in that area, they're still last in the league, and 26th on a per-carry basis.
Now before someone says KW can't stop the run all by himself, it's not like teams avoid him. Just the opposite, in fact.
Here's how the Bills rank against the run broken down by where opposing RBs run:
Left end, 28th
Left tackle, 28th
Middle/guard, 31st
Right tackle, 14th
Right end, 32nd
Plus, the Bills' opposing RBs run toward the middle/guard 61% of the time (most in the NFL, and the league average is 50%).
Source: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

Now I'm loathe to rely on stat lists like this to make an argument, but it's the only evidence some people will accept, and it backs up what I notice.

KW is a playmaker, no doubt, and he deserves credit for his penetration abilities. Playmaking gets him noticed and gets his name on stat sheets, and he's good at that aspect.
But he's far from a complete NT. He's not a run-clogger, and that's a skill that often doesn't show up on highlight reels and stat sheets. He gets swallowed up too often, and is a significant reason why the Bills' run defense has been so bad for years.

Williams is double teamed every play. He can only do so much. It is up to the LB's to stop the run as much as the DL in the 3-4.

Don't Panic

12-23-2010, 12:16 PM

I still think Williams is best suited for a 4-3 alignment. He would make life easier for the 2nd DT and the DE playing next to him, and we would be more stout on the line, reducing the ability of other teams to carve holes and throw any old back through them for 5+ yards a pop. We need a beast DE to replace Stroud. Edwards is great for the other side. Troupe may just be the 2nd DT. But we need someone who is going to make defenses afraid to come to that side of the line so that our LBs can have less to worry about when defending the run.

OpIv37

12-23-2010, 12:27 PM

Yes, we should definately keep assessing him until he is out of his prime, and then build around him.

yeah, we should just put all our faith him cuz he had 10 good games. That's a great idea too!

Or maybe we could build a solid D that doesn't depend too much on any one player, but nahhh... that's a stupid idea!

Thief

12-23-2010, 12:33 PM

Mahdi

12-23-2010, 12:40 PM

yeah, we should just put all our faith him cuz he had 10 good games. That's a great idea too!

Or maybe we could build a solid D that doesn't depend too much on any one player, but nahhh... that's a stupid idea!
There is no defensive scheme that depends only on 1 player.

Right now, KW is doing his job and the LBs are starting to get it also. Before, we had no gap discipline and no experience in how to control the LoS as a 3-4 defense.

That last couple of weeks this defense has started to understand their roles and the results are improving.

I don't know why everyone is wanting a change to the scheme just as it is starting to work.....

Danny Duberstein

12-23-2010, 10:16 PM

I fixed it for you.

But, back to the original question: Kyle Williams is good, but not quite good enough to build a defense around. I suspect that the team will pick up some front 7 players who are a better fit for the 3-4 in the off-season and keep moving in that direction. Next year, we will probably still see a bit of a hybrid but with more emphasis on the 3-4, and by the season after that, we should be a consistent 3-4 team (assuming the players we get in the next two off-seasons turn out to be good choices).

I agree with this.

It sucks that our best defensive player isn't good enough to build a defense around. I do really like Kyle though. We just need some studs around him. I'm thinking Quinn.

DraftBoy

12-23-2010, 10:27 PM

For those of you that may not be aware even if we have 4 players with their hands on the ground, we can still be in a 3-4 alignment. Specifically if you're in a 3-4 strong alignment where the Sam LB is lined up over the TE. In many situations its up the SAM whether to play out of a 2pt or 3pt stance in that instance.

Mahdi

12-24-2010, 09:53 AM

I agree with this.

It sucks that our best defensive player isn't good enough to build a defense around. I do really like Kyle though. We just need some studs around him. I'm thinking Quinn.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/12/24/defensive-player-of-the-year-send-us-the-bill/

Not good enough??

Danny Duberstein

12-24-2010, 11:00 AM

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/12/24/defensive-player-of-the-year-send-us-the-bill/

Not good enough??

sigh.....

He's a very good D-Lineman. He's one of my favorite players on this team, and the best player on our defense. But just because one website says he should be defensive player of the year, it doesn't mean he's the kind of dominant D-Tackle that you build a defense around.

better days

12-24-2010, 12:14 PM

sigh.....

He's a very good D-Lineman. He's one of my favorite players on this team, and the best player on our defense. But just because one website says he should be defensive player of the year, it doesn't mean he's the kind of dominant D-Tackle that you build a defense around.

What do you mean by build around? Like the defense with Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Warren Sapp? Those guys are all HOF players. Name me a defense today built around one player.

Extremebillsfan247

12-24-2010, 04:00 PM

because he's been that way for what? The last 10 games or so out of a 5 year career?

Look, he's a good player and he's having a great season. He's proven me wrong because I was afraid he'd be out of place in this D. But building a D around him as if he is going to stay that great for the rest of his career is a HUGE gamble. Well it isn't like we are talking about a franchise QB now is it? lol come on.

Mad Max

12-24-2010, 04:54 PM

yeah, we should just put all our faith him cuz he had 10 good games. That's a great idea too!

Or maybe we could build a solid D that doesn't depend too much on any one player, but nahhh... that's a stupid idea!

KW is good but he's no Keystone. He's no Vince Wilfork or even Fat Pat Williams. He can be an integral piece of the puzzle no doubt but he better not be the best piece we have.

JCBills

12-24-2010, 05:02 PM

because he's been that way for what? The last 10 games or so out of a 5 year career?

Look, he's a good player and he's having a great season. He's proven me wrong because I was afraid he'd be out of place in this D. But building a D around him as if he is going to stay that great for the rest of his career is a HUGE gamble.

Williams has been extremely disruptive at the line for quite some time, it just took him getting a pro-bowl alternate nod for most on here to realize it.

theanswer74

12-24-2010, 06:01 PM

Well the statement is wrong. Plain and simple. I don't care if he watches the games or not.

Our front 7 is ----------- Stroud ----- KW--------- S. Johnson

-------------------Kelsay ----- Ayodele ------ Poz ------------------- Moats

Like I said, Kelsay just prefers to put his hand in the ground so it looks like a 4-3 sometimes. We do sprinkle in 4-3 but usually only in nickel situations.

Its not really a 3-4. its a 4-3 over look. There are some similar concepts to the 3-4, but you have DT's shading the interior lineman, instead of a NT in the zero tech on the center. I believe the strong side DE in this formation has similar responsibility as a 3-4 DE, he plays 2 gaps.

It really fits our personnel best and i doubt the Bills will change this look. And when we draft Marcell Dareus he will slide into that strong side DE role.

In your diagram Dareus will be playing where Spencer Johnson plays.