View Full Version : Cam Newton
Alright. we all have been arguing about cam newton on a ton of threads. how bout we have a thread totally dedicated to Cam. lets hear it all.
i think we absolutely need a qb and nobody can argue that.
that being said. i also think that Cam Newton is the best in this class and we need him at 3 or any number for that matter.
ddaryl
01-30-2011, 10:38 AM
unless that QB is ready to start before 2011 is over with we shouldn't reach for one at #3 regardless of who we are talking about.
We need to strengthen both lines and LB's in this draft...
Also Cam doesn't pass the rule, and it's way to risky to not pay attention to the 26-27-60 rule as the majority of QB's who come into the league and do not come at least very close to passing this rule has failed many many more times then not.
If an NFL prospect scores at least a 26 on the Wonderlic test, starts at least 27 games in his college career and completes at least 60 percent of his passes, there's a good chance he will succeed at the NFL level.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/john_lopez/07/08/qb.rule/index.html#ixzz1CXOPNw3f
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Since 1998, these are some of the NFL quarterbacks who aced all three parts of the Rule of 26-27-60: Peyton Manning, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, Kyle Orton, Kevin Kolb, Matt Ryan, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Matt Stafford.
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;">
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Name
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Wonderlic
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Starts
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Completion Percentage
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Peyton Manning
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 28
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 45
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 63
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Philip Rivers
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 30
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 49
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 64
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Drew Brees
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 28
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 36
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 61
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Tony Romo
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 37
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 35
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 62
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Matt Schaub
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 31
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 36
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 67
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Eli Manning
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 39
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 38
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 61
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Kyle Orton
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 26
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 37
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 60
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Kevin Kolb
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 28
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 47
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 62
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Matt Ryan
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 32
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 28
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 60
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Ryan Fitzpatrick
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 48
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 28
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 60
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Meanwhile, among the once highly-touted prospects who failed at least one part of the formula: Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Michael Vick, Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Daunte Culpepper, David Carr, Vince Young and JaMarcus Russell.
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;">
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Player
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Wonderlic
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Starts
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Completion Percentage
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Ryan Leaf
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 27
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 24
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 53
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Joey Harrington
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 32
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 26
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 55
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Michael Vick
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 20
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 21
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 56
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Akili Smith
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 26
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 11
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 58
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Tim Couch
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 22
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 27
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 67
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Daunte Culpepper
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 18
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 43
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 64
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> David Carr
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 24
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 26
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 62
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Vince Young
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 16
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 32
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 61
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> JaMarcus Russell
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 24
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 29
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 61
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
There are a few notable exceptions to the rule but only by slight margins.Two-time Super Bowl champ Ben Roethlisberger scored a 25 on the Wonderlic, just one point short of the standard of 26. Jay Cutler -- a mixed-bag thus far in the NFL -- scored exactly a 26 on his Wonderlic and had the starts, but completed 57 percent of his passes at Vanderbilt. Joe Flacco, who's been to the playoffs in each of his first two seasons, fell short in the starts category.
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;">
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Player
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Wonderlic
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Starts
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Completion Percentage
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Jay Cutler
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 26
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 43
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 57
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Ben Roethlisberger
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 25
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 38
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 65
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Joe Flacco
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 27
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 22
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 64
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
How about the quarterback class of 2010? Top pick Sam Bradford aces the rule easily, but the other three high-profile rookie QBs -- the Browns' Colt McCoy, the Broncos' Tim Tebow and the Panthers' Jimmy Clausen -- all fall short on the Wonderlic, although not by much.
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;">
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Player
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Wonderlic
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Starts
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Completion Percentage
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Sam Bradford
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 36
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 31
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 67
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Colt McCoy
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 25
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 53
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 70
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Tim Tebow
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 22
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 42
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 67
</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> Jimmy Clausen
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 23
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 35
</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> 63
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/john_lopez/07/08/qb.rule/index.html#ixzz1CXNxLW4U (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/john_lopez/07/08/qb.rule/index.html#ixzz1CXNxLW4U)
X-Era
01-30-2011, 10:40 AM
Alright. we all have been arguing about cam newton on a ton of threads. how bout we have a thread totally dedicated to Cam. lets hear it all.
i think we absolutely need a qb and nobody can argue that.
that being said. i also think that Cam Newton is the best in this class and we need him at 3 or any number for that matter.I'll play.
1) This years boom or bust prospect. Ryan Mallett is a boom or bust prospect as well, but not to the level of Newton. Newton has phenomenal athleticism which makes his ceiling higher IMO. Newton has the size and arm. He needs to be developed and polished technically. He heeds footwork coaching and to further develop his ability to read defenses. I think Gailey can do it and Fitz could help him with the mental aspects. We wouldn't need him right away and that could make this scenario more doable for us.
2) For the Bills, a spread QB may actually be a bit more attractive. We run the spread so much that it may be an easier transition.
3) I think Gailey can get the best out of the guy. I think he proved to us that he can get production out of his players and especially the QB. I think Gailey can mold him into a solid passer who reads defenses before taking off on the run. But I also think Gailey will utilize his run ability to add yet another weapon to the offense. Gailey can work with a mobile QB. His history with Kordell Stewart may make him more prone to grab a guy that can add the running threat. And I think Gailey would use him right away in certain situations like Wildcat formations or possibly even lined up inside in a 4 wide set.
4) Newton is a big name. The PR factor is there with him. But, he needs to come out squeaky clean when teams investigate his past. If even more than one team says he has questionable character, it will make this a very controversial pick and the PR may go negative rather than positive. Let's face it, outlets like ESPN are no fans of the Bills. They would eat up the chance to further slam us.
5) Newton can absolutely end up in the top 10 or even top 5 in this draft. Sorry, but the thought that his stock can't rise just isn't accurate. I mean some here state that if a guy isn't ranked top 15 during the season, they shouldn't be after its done. Yet the same guys who made those ranks (McShay, Kiper, Mayock, etc... ) are the same guys changing their ranks. So mid-season their opinion was valid but now it's not? Teams have professionals doing this and they readily admit that their rankings can and will change after the season ends, but posters here know better? It would be more genuine if those that feel that way would just admit that they don't want a QB at 3 period, or that they simply don't like a player.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 10:41 AM
unless that QB is ready to start before 2011 is over with we shouldn't reach for one at #3 regardless of who we are talking about.
We need to strengthen both lines and LB's in this draft...
Also Cam doesn't pass the rule, and it's way to risky to not pay attention to the 27-26-60 rule as the majority of QB's who come into the league and do not come at least very close to passing this rule has failed many many more times then not.1) There is no rule.
2) Prove he's a reach. Where's the data?
unless that QB is ready to start before 2011 is over with we shouldn't reach for one at #3 regardless of who we are talking about.
We need to strengthen both lines and LB's in this draft...
Also Cam doesn't pass the rule, and it's way to risky to not pay attention to the 26-27-60 rule as the majority of QB's who come into the league and do not come at least very close to passing this rule has failed many many more times then not.
I agree thatthose spots need to be addressed. But you cant argue the fact that we have to have a qb to win. Ryan fitzpatric is not a great qb and is not going to win us a superbowl. Btw. Ryan did pass the rule. How did that work out. And wile i agree with the rule. I dont agree with sitting here and passing on a potebtial superstar and being in this exact same spot next year. Cam is an amazing player, proven winner, and has legs combined with a nfl arm. Wht else could u want
YardRat
01-30-2011, 10:48 AM
No to Newton at #3. Start with the lines, and build out. We're not in position to take that kind of risk on a QB this early in the development of the team. Solidify the trenches and the LBers, then we will be in a better position to take a chance.
If Newton busts, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If he booms, who cares, we'll be able to get somebody else in a season or two and their chances of success will greatly increase with a better offensive line and an above-average defense.
If you're in this for ticket sales and the Wow! factor, go for it. If you're looking for long-term success, stay very far away from Cam.
I'll play.
1) This years boom or bust prospect. Ryan Mallett is a boom or bust prospect as well, but not to the level of Newton. Newton has phenomenal athleticism which makes his ceiling higher IMO. Newton has the size and arm. He needs to be developed and polished technically. He heeds footwork coaching and to further develop his ability to read defenses. I think Gailey can do it and Fitz could help him with the mental aspects. We wouldn't need him right away and that could make this scenario more doable for us.
2) For the Bills, a spread QB may actually be a bit more attractive. We run the spread so much that it may be an easier transition.
3) I think Gailey can get the best out of the guy. I think he proved to us that he can get production out of his players and especially the QB. I think Gailey can mold him into a solid passer who reads defenses before taking off on the run. But I also think Gailey will utilize his run ability to add yet another weapon to the offense. Gailey can work with a mobile QB. His history with Kordell Stewart may make him more prone to grab a guy that can add the running threat. And I think Gailey would use him right away in certain situations like Wildcat formations or possibly even lined up inside in a 4 wide set.
4) Newton is a big name. The PR factor is there with him. But, he needs to come out squeaky clean when teams investigate his past. If even more than one team says he has questionable character, it will make this a very controversial pick and the PR may go negative rather than positive. Let's face it, outlets like ESPN are no fans of the Bills. They would eat up the chance to further slam us.
5) Newton can absolutely end up in the top 10 or even top 5 in this draft. Sorry, but the thought that his stock can't rise just isn't accurate. I mean some here state that if a guy isn't ranked top 15 during the season, they shouldn't be after its done. Yet the same guys who made those ranks (McShay, Kiper, Mayock, etc... ) are the same guys changing their ranks. So mid-season their opinion was valid but now it's not? Teams have professionals doing this and they readily admit that their rankings can and will change after the season ends, but posters here know better? It would be more genuine if those that feel that way would just admit that they don't want a QB at 3 period, or that they simply don't like a player.
Seriously man. Way to in depth. You could make the same development argue with any qb. The fact is cam is the best in this draft by far and we need a qb #1. Can someone argue that a lb or ol,dl is more needed because that is rediculous. Those are positions but qb is THE position and right now were ranked 27 or lower
Mr. Miyagi
01-30-2011, 10:54 AM
Really? Do we need yet another thread to beat the dead horse?
X-Era
01-30-2011, 10:55 AM
No to Newton at #3. Start with the lines, and build out. We're not in position to take that kind of risk on a QB this early in the development of the team. Solidify the trenches and the LBers, then we will be in a better position to take a chance.
If Newton busts, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If he booms, who cares, we'll be able to get somebody else in a season or two and their chances of success will greatly increase with a better offensive line and an above-average defense.
If you're in this for ticket sales and the Wow! factor, go for it. If you're looking for long-term success, stay very far away from Cam.I like this post from you. It skipped the whole worthiness at 3 issue and went straight to your preference.
I agree with much of what you said. The only reasons I would be willing to take the risk is because I think it's so critical for our long term success to get a serious upgrade. And, I think Nix may make some quality moves in FA to lessen our need for a huge defensive player at 3. Plus I'd like to play to the strengths of the draft and I think the strongest place to pick a LB'er is in rounds 2-5. And the DL depth is so good, we could wait on that too. For example.
What if we ended up with these guys?
2) Martez Wilson
3) Jeremy Beal
4) Phil Taylor
No to Newton at #3. Start with the lines, and build out. We're not in position to take that kind of risk on a QB this early in the development of the team. Solidify the trenches and the LBers, then we will be in a better position to take a chance.
If Newton busts, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If he booms, who cares, we'll be able to get somebody else in a season or two and their chances of success will greatly increase with a better offensive line and an above-average defense.
If you're in this for ticket sales and the Wow! factor, go for it. If you're looking for long-term success, stay very far away from Cam.
Early in the development? This team was established in 1959. To me that means this isnt early development.
Long term success stay away from cam? Thats right. If we want to have long term success lets keep a bad qb and get a good lb and lineman. Ill refer you to my signature. Nuff said
Your right about one thing though. If we skip on a qb and he does well. W will be able to pick one in a season or two cuz we will be in the top five on draft day until we get a good qb
And your
YardRat
01-30-2011, 11:12 AM
5) Newton can absolutely end up in the top 10 or even top 5 in this draft. Sorry, but the thought that his stock can't rise just isn't accurate. I mean some here state that if a guy isn't ranked top 15 during the season, they shouldn't be after its done. Yet the same guys who made those ranks (McShay, Kiper, Mayock, etc... ) are the same guys changing their ranks. So mid-season their opinion was valid but now it's not? Teams have professionals doing this and they readily admit that their rankings can and will change after the season ends, but posters here know better? It would be more genuine if those that feel that way would just admit that they don't want a QB at 3 period, or that they simply don't like a player.
Considering I'm one of 'those guys' on this board, I'll address this...
I've maintained for quite awhile that somebody is going to fall in love with Newton and take him high...That doesn't mean he necessarily is a better pick than the players he leap-frogged.
His stock can rise, and will...What does that prove, really?
Player rankings should be pretty solidified after the games are done...anybody that puts too much stock into results from a controlled environment (the combine) or a contrived work-out (the pro days) are setting themselves up for a higher likelihood of failure.
As for the bolded part...Aye, there's the rub. Who really gives a **** about Kiper, McShay and the rest of the talking heads? If they want more face time and more opportunity to express their 'expertise', let them play around with the rankings...I couldn't care less. Anybody that actually holds a position in an NFL front office though? Yeah, if they are affected too much by the combine/pro days, or if they even give a rat's ass how the media GM-wannabes rank players enough to change their big board, that would concern me a lot. Football teams need football players, not workout warriors.
Finally...I don't want a QB at #3, period, because there isn't one in this draft worth taking that risk on, that high. If I'm rolling the dice, I'll take my chances with a big man in the first round, and consider gambling on a long shot in a later round.
Figster
01-30-2011, 11:19 AM
Statistically, Newton among best ever
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/tag/_/name/cam-newton
X-Era
01-30-2011, 11:20 AM
Considering I'm one of 'those guys' on this board, I'll address this...
I've maintained for quite awhile that somebody is going to fall in love with Newton and take him high...That doesn't mean he necessarily is a better pick than the players he leap-frogged.
His stock can rise, and will...What does that prove, really?
Player rankings should be pretty solidified after the games are done...anybody that puts too much stock into results from a controlled environment (the combine) or a contrived work-out (the pro days) are setting themselves up for a higher likelihood of failure.
As for the bolded part...Aye, there's the rub. Who really gives a **** about Kiper, McShay and the rest of the talking heads? If they want more face time and more opportunity to express their 'expertise', let them play around with the rankings...I couldn't care less. Anybody that actually holds a position in an NFL front office though? Yeah, if they are affected too much by the combine/pro days, or if they even give a rat's ass how the media GM-wannabes rank players enough to change their big board, that would concern me a lot. Football teams need football players, not workout warriors.
Finally...I don't want a QB at #3, period, because there isn't one in this draft worth taking that risk on, that high. If I'm rolling the dice, I'll take my chances with a big man in the first round, and consider gambling on a long shot in a later round.
Where did you get your rankings? Was it in part or in whole from what you read? I mean I try to form my opinion on players based on what I watch. But I absolutely look to see what others are thinking as well.
What does stock rising prove? That teams don't look at it like you do. It happens every year and the teams that are spending the millions and making the picks are the ones doing it. I mean in many situations I agree that they are wrong in their rank on a player, but I can't pretend that it isn't a reality. Really the question is who sets the worth of the player. And it's the teams, not us.
Let me admit to being wrong as an example. I thought Clausen would go in round 1 last year. Yet the NFL teams saw it different. Some here thought LeFevour would go in the 2nd or 3rd round, again wrongly. What we see is not always what teams see, and as you showed not always what the Bills see.
It's the old axiom: Something is worth whatever someone will pay for it.
tampabay25690
01-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Im fine with Cam 3rd.
Would put asses in the seats and Bills fans would luv him and his big personality......Cam would fit very well in Chan's style of offense.
I actually would be the best situation for Cam and the Bills.....
YardRat
01-30-2011, 11:22 AM
Early in the development? This team was established in 1959. To me that means this isnt early development.
Long term success stay away from cam? Thats right. If we want to have long term success lets keep a bad qb and get a good lb and lineman. Ill refer you to my signature. Nuff said
Your right about one thing though. If we skip on a qb and he does well. W will be able to pick one in a season or two cuz we will be in the top five on draft day until we get a good qb
And your
We've sucked for more than a decade, and we're rebuilding. Year #1 of Nix/Gailey just wrapped up. Yes, we are in an early developmental stage.
Long term success is built on the o-line and defense. That's why certain teams continue to make the playoffs on a regular basis, or experience shorter up and down cycles. From the Steel Curtain to the current crew, it isn't just a coincidence that Pittsburgh has been the most successful AFC team in the Super Bowl era.
Your sig is wrong, sorry. Many teams over the years have had 'franchise' QB's. Many never won a championship, a plethora struggled in the playoffs or even had trouble making them. Behind every 'franchise' QB (save the rare exception, like Peyton Manning, but let's be honest he'd still be ringless if the Indy D hadn't stepped up for the post-season) is more often than not a solid defense and offensive line.
Thief
01-30-2011, 11:23 AM
It is only a reach if he fails.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 11:26 AM
It is only a reach if he fails.
It's only not a reach if he succeeds.
Mr. Miyagi
01-30-2011, 11:26 AM
How was Eric Crouch statistically in his Heisman year?
X-Era
01-30-2011, 11:31 AM
It's only not a reach if he succeeds.It's only a reach if the majority of the other teams think it's too high... they set the ranks, not the media or us.
Philagape
01-30-2011, 11:42 AM
Ing's facts are most telling. QBs who have started less than 25 games in their college career are almost always busts.
http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?p=3404132&postcount=29
That experience is needed.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 11:49 AM
Where did you get your rankings? Was it in part or in whole from what you read? I mean I try to form my opinion on players based on what I watch. But I absolutely look to see what others are thinking as well.
What does stock rising prove? That teams don't look at it like you do. It happens every year and the teams that are spending the millions and making the picks are the ones doing it. I mean in many situations I agree that they are wrong in their rank on a player, but I can't pretend that it isn't a reality. Really the question is who sets the worth of the player. And it's the teams, not us.
Let me admit to being wrong as an example. I thought Clausen would go in round 1 last year. Yet the NFL teams saw it different. Some here thought LeFevour would go in the 2nd or 3rd round, again wrongly. What we see is not always what teams see, and as you showed not always what the Bills see.
It's the old axiom: Something is worth whatever someone will pay for it.
You watch a lot of 'tape' and highlights, you do analysis, etc...Let me ask you one simple question...No 'potential', no 'upside', no'ceiling', no 'possible', et al....Just one simple question, with what should be one simple answer...
Out of all of the QB's eligible for this year's draft, which individual in your opinion (regardless of whether your answer actually turns out to be 'right' or 'wrong') is going to have the most successful pro career of the bunch?
X-Era
01-30-2011, 11:58 AM
You watch a lot of 'tape' and highlights, you do analysis, etc...Let me ask you one simple question...No 'potential', no 'upside', no'ceiling', no 'possible', et al....Just one simple question, with what should be one simple answer...
Out of all of the QB's eligible for this year's draft, which individual in your opinion (regardless of whether your answer actually turns out to be 'right' or 'wrong') is going to have the most successful pro career of the bunch?Eesh... tough.
As a guy who forms an opinion on such a risky thing as the draft, of course I don't want to answer with a direct answer. It's such a gamble and I can easily be wrong. The part that especially makes me not want to commit is that I think it makes a huge difference what teams they go to. I honestly feel these guys have a much better chance of developing and being successful here than for the Cardinals, Washington, or the Titans.
But, a straight question deserves a straight answer.
Blaine Gabbert. I think he's the most solid of the top 3.
Cam Newton could become a star in the league, but he could also be the next Russell... easily. I'd have no problem with Newton because I trust in Gailey so much. But Gabbert is more likely to succeed IMO.
Figster
01-30-2011, 12:17 PM
Eesh... tough.
As a guy who forms an opinion on such a risky thing as the draft, of course I don't want to answer with a direct answer. It's such a gamble and I can easily be wrong. The part that especially makes me not want to commit is that I think it makes a huge difference what teams they go to. I honestly feel these guys have a much better chance of developing and being successful here than for the Cardinals, Washington, or the Titans.
But, a straight question deserves a straight answer.
Blaine Gabbert. I think he's the most solid of the top 3.
Cam Newton could become a star in the league, but he could also be the next Russell... easily. I'd have no problem with Newton because I trust in Gailey so much. But Gabbert is more likely to succeed IMO.
When you take into account Cam Newton's exceptional rushing skills and 4.5 speed, Newton is the better pick in my opinion.
From a marketing standpoint Newton blows Gabbert out of the water...
YardRat
01-30-2011, 12:24 PM
Eesh... tough.
As a guy who forms an opinion on such a risky thing as the draft, of course I don't want to answer with a direct answer. It's such a gamble and I can easily be wrong. The part that especially makes me not want to commit is that I think it makes a huge difference what teams they go to. I honestly feel these guys have a much better chance of developing and being successful here than for the Cardinals, Washington, or the Titans.
But, a straight question deserves a straight answer.
Blaine Gabbert. I think he's the most solid of the top 3.
Cam Newton could become a star in the league, but he could also be the next Russell... easily. I'd have no problem with Newton because I trust in Gailey so much. But Gabbert is more likely to succeed IMO.
Thanks for the honest answer, and playing along.
Now part 2...:D
You're in the War Room, and you have the final say. Gabbert is on the board after the first two picks, and it's your turn.
Do you pull the trigger on Gabbert at #3 in the first round?
Considering I'm one of 'those guys' on this board, I'll address this...
I've maintained for quite awhile that somebody is going to fall in love with Newton and take him high...That doesn't mean he necessarily is a better pick than the players he leap-frogged.
His stock can rise, and will...What does that prove, really?
Player rankings should be pretty solidified after the games are done...anybody that puts too much stock into results from a controlled environment (the combine) or a contrived work-out (the pro days) are setting themselves up for a higher likelihood of failure.
As for the bolded part...Aye, there's the rub. Who really gives a **** about Kiper, McShay and the rest of the talking heads? If they want more face time and more opportunity to express their 'expertise', let them play around with the rankings...I couldn't care less. Anybody that actually holds a position in an NFL front office though? Yeah, if they are affected too much by the combine/pro days, or if they even give a rat's ass how the media GM-wannabes rank players enough to change their big board, that would concern me a lot. Football teams need football players, not workout warriors.
Finally...I don't want a QB at #3, period, because there isn't one in this draft worth taking that risk on, that high. If I'm rolling the dice, I'll take my chances with a big man in the first round, and consider gambling on a long shot in a later round.
Very strong post. I agree with all of it. Except, we absolutely need a qb. And we cant wait any longer. I agree that cam may not be a top 3 pick. But thats where we are. Trading down may be an option. But put aside the fact that its #3 and think about our #1 need. And thats qb. So i say with our #1 pick. Take our #1 neeeded player. QB.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Thanks for the honest answer, and playing along.
Now part 2...:D
You're in the War Room, and you have the final say. Gabbert is on the board after the first two picks, and it's your turn.
Do you pull the trigger on Gabbert at #3 in the first round?If Bowers is gone, yes. If not, I would think long and hard about who would mean more to the team. And yes, I could then still decide to take Gabbert.
But I also could see Newton if the Bills feel he can be their leader and that he's got the type of character they need. His upside is huge and Gailey helps to mitigate some risk.
Why? Because I think having a franchise type QB is huge. I think it may allow us to survive not having a top 10 defense and still make the playoffs. It may allow us to stay in games against the best offenses when they put up points. And I think it would allow us to play sound football in tough games where bad QB play would kill our chances of winning.
Furthermore, I think our defense can get much better through free agency and other picks. Yet the chances of us getting much better at QB outside of the 1st round is much less.
Because of what it may mean to the team, I would pull the trigger and take Gabbert, yes.
I will admit to being a bit more risky than some. It often takes a high pick to get a highly touted QB, we have that pick, and may not get the chance again for many years. If we end up feeling Gabbert or Newton is worthy, this may be the chance to get one. And I also tend to think a mistake at 3 isn't as huge as some feel it is. I look at the Raiders and how they were in playoff contention in the same year that they ditched Russell (this year). The concept that it sets us way back just doesn't seem that real to me. I think the big loss is from Ralph's wallet and frankly, I don't care about his wallet anymore.
Timing is another issue. Gailey will be in year two of the typical three year leash. We have Fitz for just next year and then he may be able to demand starting QB money. I want a viable backup option to Fitz for that reason as well. But I also want a long term possibility in the fold to get going on developing him. Fitz can help and may not be here after next year. I'd like to do it without the pressure of having him start right away. Gailey needs his long term answer and he needs to have the best chance he can to develop him. To me that's this year.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 12:51 PM
Fair enough.
Obviously I disagree, but to each his own.
Ing's facts are most telling. QBs who have started less than 25 games in their college career are almost always busts.
http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?p=3404132&postcount=29
That experience is needed.
But how many of those guys that made the rule won the national championship and the heisman.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 01:06 PM
But how many of those guys that made the rule won the national championship and the heisman.
How many college QB's won the nat'l championship and the Heisman and parlayed that into a successful NFL career?
How many college QB's won the nat'l championship and the Heisman and parlayed that into a successful NFL career?
Thats true. In the past 20 years there have been 3 players that won both and all were flops. But they also were very high draft picks and were not questioned in their year at all. Maybe that was the problem. None were ever humbled. Anyway why play the history game. Each person is different. And Cam Newton is te best in the draft at a position that we need most. Tell me why we dont take him
Ingtar33
01-30-2011, 03:25 PM
But how many of those guys that made the rule won the national championship and the heisman.
who made the rule? you don't get it at all.
There are guidelines... and at best, the guidelines predict failure not success.
In this case, the guidelines i like to follow are 60% completion, 37 starts (Ideal) - the starts number can be fudged a bit, with 25 being the min.
Once you get into QBs with less then 25 college starts and 60% completions you find an atrocious pile of train wrecks.
Does this mean that a QB with no starts or passes (Cassel) won't succeed in the pros? Not at all, this just means the vast majority in league history (and by vast i mean like 95-99%) will be failures.
This is a negative indicator. Plenty of failures have both indicators (completions and starts) and still fail. Its the QBs without the starts and comp % we're interested in, because the numbers don't lie. While choosing a QB in round 1 or 2 is roughly a 30-35% gamble (30% chance they'll become a steady starter in the league, by far the highest percentage of all the rounds) you can really improve your odds by weeding out the guys with less then 24 starts and 60% completions.
here... look at the list linked (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?p=3404132&postcount=29).
14 QBs taken in round 1 or 2 of the draft in the last 13 years were both 37 game starters and 60% completion guys
of those 14 QBs, 9 are established starters in the league 8 played in atleast 1 probowl, 5 played in at least 1 superbowl, there are 5 superbowl championships amoung them. This means simply by taking a round 1 or 2 talent at QB who had 37 college starts and a career 60% completion rating in college you saw a draft success rating of about 60%
Taking a 1st/2nd round QB who is missing 1 or 2 of those requirements resulted in a draft success rate of 13%... 29 players, 4 established starters, 2 probowl players, and 2 superbowls (counting aaron rogers this year), with 0 superbowl victories.
So you ignore those stats at your extreme peril.
better days
01-30-2011, 03:26 PM
I'll play.
1) This years boom or bust prospect. Ryan Mallett is a boom or bust prospect as well, but not to the level of Newton. Newton has phenomenal athleticism which makes his ceiling higher IMO. Newton has the size and arm. He needs to be developed and polished technically. He heeds footwork coaching and to further develop his ability to read defenses. I think Gailey can do it and Fitz could help him with the mental aspects. We wouldn't need him right away and that could make this scenario more doable for us.
2) For the Bills, a spread QB may actually be a bit more attractive. We run the spread so much that it may be an easier transition.
3) I think Gailey can get the best out of the guy. I think he proved to us that he can get production out of his players and especially the QB. I think Gailey can mold him into a solid passer who reads defenses before taking off on the run. But I also think Gailey will utilize his run ability to add yet another weapon to the offense. Gailey can work with a mobile QB. His history with Kordell Stewart may make him more prone to grab a guy that can add the running threat. And I think Gailey would use him right away in certain situations like Wildcat formations or possibly even lined up inside in a 4 wide set.
4) Newton is a big name. The PR factor is there with him. But, he needs to come out squeaky clean when teams investigate his past. If even more than one team says he has questionable character, it will make this a very controversial pick and the PR may go negative rather than positive. Let's face it, outlets like ESPN are no fans of the Bills. They would eat up the chance to further slam us.
5) Newton can absolutely end up in the top 10 or even top 5 in this draft. Sorry, but the thought that his stock can't rise just isn't accurate. I mean some here state that if a guy isn't ranked top 15 during the season, they shouldn't be after its done. Yet the same guys who made those ranks (McShay, Kiper, Mayock, etc... ) are the same guys changing their ranks. So mid-season their opinion was valid but now it's not? Teams have professionals doing this and they readily admit that their rankings can and will change after the season ends, but posters here know better? It would be more genuine if those that feel that way would just admit that they don't want a QB at 3 period, or that they simply don't like a player.
I agree with much of what you say in this post, but let me ask you a question. How can Cam come out squeaky clean when a team investigates his past? It can not be done.
There is no dispute that Cam was caught cheating three separate times at Florida. There is also no dispute that Cam had a stolen computer in his posession which he threw out the window when the police came while at Florida. These are the reasons Cam was not the Gators QB this past year.
How can anyone say a person with his past is squeaky clean? That is not even taking into account the deal with his father. The best that can be hoped for is that Cam takes responsibility for his mistakes of the past & has learned a life lesson.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 03:33 PM
Thats true. In the past 20 years there have been 3 players that won both and all were flops. But they also were very high draft picks and were not questioned in their year at all. Maybe that was the problem. None were ever humbled. Anyway why play the history game. Each person is different. And Cam Newton is te best in the draft at a position that we need most. Tell me why we dont take him
Because you brought it up.
Very debatable for the pro level, at best.
Although he appears to have all of the physical tools, his grasp on the mental aspect of the game is a huge question mark. He's played one season against quality competition. His character has been questioned. His father's too close and too involved. He ran exclusively a spread offense, apparently (from other's comments) built upon a dumbed-down playbook....Of the three of four games I watched him in the season, I can't recall a single indication of him reading a defense pre-snap, and very few instances of him looking off a receiver that didn't already appear to be part of the play anyway. I'll be stunned if this kid can actually go through any type of progression without taking off on foot early in a league where everybody is bigger-faster-football smarter than D1 real estate and insurance agents (if they're lucky). Besides that, I like a mobile QB but dislike runners.
This kid has bust written all over him.
Figster
01-30-2011, 03:35 PM
Gabbert: 301 completions out of 475 attempts for 3,186 yards,
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=381364
Newton: 185 completions out of 280 attempts for 2,854 yards
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=232016
Blaine Gabbert had almost 200 more passing attempts than Cam Newton with only 332 yards difference in total yardage.
Cam Newton tops Blaine Gabbert in almost every statistical category there is available. Completion percentage, TD to INT ratio, yards per play average all in Cam Newtons favor.
Figster
01-30-2011, 03:39 PM
Because you brought it up.
Very debatable for the pro level, at best.
Although he appears to have all of the physical tools, his grasp on the mental aspect of the game is a huge question mark. He's played one season against quality competition. His character has been questioned. His father's too close and too involved. He ran exclusively a spread offense, apparently (from other's comments) built upon a dumbed-down playbook....Of the three of four games I watched him in the season, I can't recall a single indication of him reading a defense pre-snap, and very few instances of him looking off a receiver that didn't already appear to be part of the play anyway. I'll be stunned if this kid can actually go through any type of progression without taking off on foot early in a league where everybody is bigger-faster-football smarter than D1 real estate and insurance agents (if they're lucky). Besides that, I like a mobile QB but dislike runners.
This kid has bust written all over him.This post makes me laugh, why? because he tops the Nation in almost every statistical category, goes 14-0 and wins a National Championship,
bust written all over him, give me a break
Philagape
01-30-2011, 03:43 PM
But how many of those guys that made the rule won the national championship and the heisman.
Why should anyone care?
You enter the NFL with a blank slate.
better days
01-30-2011, 03:49 PM
This post makes me laugh, why? because he tops the Nation in almost every statistical category, goes 14-0 and wins a National Championship,
bust written all over him, give me a break
Well it is all a huge guess if Newton will be great or a great bust in the NFL. His supporters can point to the facts you laid out while his critics can point to the facts that he is a one year wonder with questionable character. It is also not a given that Newton will ever learn to read NFL defenses or read through his progressions.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 03:51 PM
This post makes me laugh, why? because he tops the Nation in almost every statistical category, goes 14-0 and wins a National Championship,
bust written all over him, give me a break
What statistical categories did Newton lead the nation in other than yards per attempt?
Undefeated and a Nat'l Championship are team accomplishments, not his alone. You know who else accomplished that? Chris Weinke, Josh Huepel, Ken Dorsey, Craig Krenzel, Matt Leinart and Vince Young...and that's just '99 to current.
If that isn't the kiss of death, I don't know what is.
Figster
01-30-2011, 04:26 PM
What statistical categories did Newton lead the nation in other than yards per attempt?
Undefeated and a Nat'l Championship are team accomplishments, not his alone. You know who else accomplished that? Chris Weinke, Josh Huepel, Ken Dorsey, Craig Krenzel, Matt Leinart and Vince Young...and that's just '99 to current.
If that isn't the kiss of death, I don't know what is.
College QB Power rankings http://collegefootball.rivals.com/viewCFSE.asp
Led the nation in total yardage passing and rushing combined, 4,327 ( Newton is the first quarterback in SEC history to throw for 2,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in a season.)
Newton accounted for 51 touchdowns this season. In comparison, there are 82 Football Bowl Subdivision teams that didn’t score 51 TDs this season, including LSU, Texas, Penn State and Notre Dame.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 04:31 PM
Gabbert: 301 completions out of 475 attempts for 3,186 yards,
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=381364
Newton: 185 completions out of 280 attempts for 2,854 yards
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=232016
Blaine Gabbert had almost 200 more passing attempts than Cam Newton with only 332 yards difference in total yardage.
Cam Newton tops Blaine Gabbert in almost every statistical category there is available. Completion percentage, TD to INT ratio, yards per play average all in Cam Newtons favor.Look, I don't want to argue one versus the other. But, Gabberts team wasn't as good as Auburn's by any means.
It's the whole picture to me. Yes, the numbers are another puzzle piece, but not the entire picture. Gabbert has better decision making and is more solid IMO. But I agree that Newton has huge upside if it comes to fruition.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 04:44 PM
College QB Power rankings http://collegefootball.rivals.com/viewCFSE.asp
Led the nation in total yardage passing and rushing combined, 4,327 ( Newton is the first quarterback in SEC history to throw for 2,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in a season.)
Newton accounted for 51 touchdowns this season. In comparison, there are 82 Football Bowl Subdivision teams that didn’t score 51 TDs this season, including LSU, Texas, Penn State and Notre Dame.
Oh good...Passing and rushing yardage combined. Along with yards per attempt.
How about quarterback stats, which is the position he'll supposedly be playing in the NFL.
Figster
01-30-2011, 04:52 PM
Oh good...Passing and rushing yardage combined. Along with yards per attempt.
How about quarterback stats, which is the position he'll supposedly be playing in the NFL.
Nawww, I kind of put my foot in my mouth on that one, actually thought Cam led in more category's
Cams is near the top in other categories, but that's not what I posted so my mistake.
To say the kid has bust written all over him is just not true though in my opinion.
Figster
01-30-2011, 04:55 PM
Look, I don't want to argue one versus the other. But, Gabberts team wasn't as good as Auburn's by any means.
It's the whole picture to me. Yes, the numbers are another puzzle piece, but not the entire picture. Gabbert has better decision making and is more solid IMO. But I agree that Newton has huge upside if it comes to fruition.
I understand,
I just get carried away sometimes,
Thief
01-30-2011, 05:28 PM
Oh good...Passing and rushing yardage combined. Along with yards per attempt.
How about quarterback stats, which is the position he'll supposedly be playing in the NFL.I agree, wins do not count. Neither does leadership. And scoring? Pff. Irrelevant. Multidimentional? That didn't help players like Steve Young, why would it help the more physically talented Newton? Also, the fact that he dominated a lower division, and then dominated the next teir a year later earning two consecutive championships only shows that he cannot adapt, and the next tier (the NFL) will only be to fast for him.
He has bust writen all over him.
Philagape
01-30-2011, 05:37 PM
These are the relevant questions:
Can he absorb an NFL playbook (can't cheat on that), read an NFL defense, go through NFL progressions and make NFL quality decisions at NFL speed?
NOTHING he's done in college can give a clue about these required skills, and no one with his limited experience has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Until he can do that, his Heisman is a lampstand and his championship trophy is a paper weight.
You want numbers, I'll give you Graham Harrell, Colt Brennan and Timmy Chang.
Beebe's Kid
01-30-2011, 05:39 PM
unless that QB is ready to start before 2011 is over with we shouldn't reach for one at #3 regardless of who we are talking about.
We need to strengthen both lines and LB's in this draft...
Also Cam doesn't pass the rule, and it's way to risky to not pay attention to the 26-27-60 rule as the majority of QB's who come into the league and do not come at least very close to passing this rule has failed many many more times then not.
How you could repons to this or Ing's posts and deny there being some correlation s a little puzzling.
The best part about this is that Fitzy is in some pretty damn good company. He couldn't be good though, because Bills fans that obsess about "finding the next guy" don't realize that they won't see him if he falls into their laps.
All QB's put up some rough numbers while adjusting to, not Imogene league, but an offensive system.
I really don't care if the Bills take Newtonat 3...I'd really rather we didn't but what am I going to do? Turn in a "fan card?"
I remain unconvinced that this team needs to replace Fitzy, this year or any time soon. I don't feel any of the QB's will be BPA at #3, and that there isn't enough separating 1-4 from 4-8 to waste that high of pick on a QB.
I am no draft expert, just a fan.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 05:59 PM
who made the rule? you don't get it at all.
There are guidelines... and at best, the guidelines predict failure not success.
In this case, the guidelines i like to follow are 60% completion, 37 starts (Ideal) - the starts number can be fudged a bit, with 25 being the min.
Once you get into QBs with less then 25 college starts and 60% completions you find an atrocious pile of train wrecks.
Does this mean that a QB with no starts or passes (Cassel) won't succeed in the pros? Not at all, this just means the vast majority in league history (and by vast i mean like 95-99%) will be failures.
This is a negative indicator. Plenty of failures have both indicators (completions and starts) and still fail. Its the QBs without the starts and comp % we're interested in, because the numbers don't lie. While choosing a QB in round 1 or 2 is roughly a 30-35% gamble (30% chance they'll become a steady starter in the league, by far the highest percentage of all the rounds) you can really improve your odds by weeding out the guys with less then 24 starts and 60% completions.
here... look at the list linked (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?p=3404132&postcount=29).
14 QBs taken in round 1 or 2 of the draft in the last 13 years were both 37 game starters and 60% completion guys
of those 14 QBs, 9 are established starters in the league 8 played in atleast 1 probowl, 5 played in at least 1 superbowl, there are 5 superbowl championships amoung them. This means simply by taking a round 1 or 2 talent at QB who had 37 college starts and a career 60% completion rating in college you saw a draft success rating of about 60%
Taking a 1st/2nd round QB who is missing 1 or 2 of those requirements resulted in a draft success rate of 13%... 29 players, 4 established starters, 2 probowl players, and 2 superbowls (counting aaron rogers this year), with 0 superbowl victories.
So you ignore those stats at your extreme peril.
Ing,
I don't see Mark Sanchez as a train wreck. I'd be more than happy with a starter who goes to the AFC championship game in his rookie year and 2nd year. Or Roeth who is going to his 3rd SB in 6 years. Roeth had way more starts.
The majority of teams in the past few years that go to the SB have 1st round QB's. And, this year, the bulk of them went with the guy they drafted.
Juniors declare every year, I think they should stay but it's not like that can be controlled. This years top guys are all juniors. We likely won't be picking at 3 for many more years. We have the pick we need to get the best of the bunch this year.
Don't draft one just to do it. Draft one who's worthy of the pick. But don't skip it just because they are Juniors, what's next year going to look like? or the year after? And before you say none are worthy of the 3 pick, be honest, you tend to be more conservative in your rankings on QB's. It's not up to us, the teams will make the choice.
It's an imperfect science and we just can't form rules for this stuff no matter how hard we try. If we could, teams would never draft these Juniors... yet they do every year.
Besides, Gabbert meets your criteria, 31 games started, 60.9% completions. as does Newton, 12 games at Blinn with 61% and 14 games at Auburn with 66%, 20 games total between Auburn and Florida... 32 games for his college career.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 06:02 PM
Nawww, I kind of put my foot in my mouth on that one, actually thought Cam led in more category's
Cams is near the top in other categories, but that's not what I posted so my mistake.
To say the kid has bust written all over him is just not true though in my opinion.
Bust is my opinion also. Either of us could be right, or wrong, or actually neither.
Billz_fan
01-30-2011, 06:04 PM
Wow, Jamarcus Russell only missed passing the "Rule" by 2 pts on the wonderlic. He really should have made it with the numbers he had. So close :laughter:
This post makes me laugh, why? because he tops the Nation in almost every statistical category, goes 14-0 and wins a National Championship,
bust written all over him, give me a break
THANK YOU!!!!!!
better days
01-30-2011, 06:26 PM
Ing,
I don't see Mark Sanchez as a train wreck. I'd be more than happy with a starter who goes to the AFC championship game in his rookie year and 2nd year. Or Roeth who is going to his 3rd SB in 6 years. Roeth had way more starts.
The majority of teams in the past few years that go to the SB have 1st round QB's. And, this year, the bulk of them went with the guy they drafted.
Juniors declare every year, I think they should stay but it's not like that can be controlled. This years top guys are all juniors. We likely won't be picking at 3 for many more years. We have the pick we need to get the best of the bunch this year.
Don't draft one just to do it. Draft one who's worthy of the pick. But don't skip it just because they are Juniors, what's next year going to look like? or the year after? And before you say none are worthy of the 3 pick, be honest, you tend to be more conservative in your rankings on QB's. It's not up to us, the teams will make the choice.
It's an imperfect science and we just can't form rules for this stuff no matter how hard we try. If we could, teams would never draft these Juniors... yet they do every year.
Besides, Gabbert meets your criteria, 31 games started, 60.9% completions. as does Newton, 12 games at Blinn with 61% and 14 games at Auburn with 66%, 20 games total between Auburn and Florida... 32 games for his college career.
Good Post, but you are really stretching it with Blinn for Newton. Jr. college is much closer to H.S. than it is to D1 College football. The vast majority of players are 17-19 years old in JR. College.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 06:27 PM
I agree, wins do not count. Neither does leadership. And scoring? Pff. Irrelevant. Multidimentional? That didn't help players like Steve Young, why would it help the more physically talented Newton? Also, the fact that he dominated a lower division, and then dominated the next teir a year later earning two consecutive championships only shows that he cannot adapt, and the next tier (the NFL) will only be to fast for him.
He has bust writen all over him.
Yeah, maybe he deserves some props for the JUCO title, but it's not like Blinn is a nobody on that stage. He does appear to have some leadership abilities, but IMO that took a hit in the BCS game. Scoring is irrelevant as far as transferring to the next level.. Steve Young is another anomaly, not the norm. If you keep counting on being struck by lightning because it happened to some guy you know one time, you're going to be disappointed much more often than not.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 06:29 PM
Good Post, but you are really stretching it with Blinn for Newton. Jr. college is much closer to H.S. than it is to D1 College football. The vast majority of players are 17-19 years old in JR. College.What is Miami of Ohio worth then?
Regardless, I think it simply points out that the rule is met. Are we going to start putting further conditions on the rule? Newton won a championship at Blinn as well.
Seems to me like he keeps getting better and better and is succeeding everywhere he goes.
better days
01-30-2011, 06:32 PM
Yeah, maybe he deserves some props for the JUCO title, but it's not like Blinn is a nobody on that stage. He does appear to have some leadership abilities, but IMO that took a hit in the BCS game. Scoring is irrelevant as far as transferring to the next level.. Steve Young is another anomaly, not the norm. If you keep counting on being struck by lightning because it happened to some guy you know one time, you're going to be disappointed much more often than not.
You can also add in that MANY players advance from H.S. to College but hit a wall when it goes past that. Many can't even make it to the Arena League let alone the NFL that were good players in College.
Look, I don't want to argue one versus the other. But, Gabberts team wasn't as good as Auburn's by any means.
It's the whole picture to me. Yes, the numbers are another puzzle piece, but not the entire picture. Gabbert has better decision making and is more solid IMO. But I agree that Newton has huge upside if it comes to fruition.
Well as long as were talking about whos got a better team. Lets discuss a few other things. Who makes plays? Who wins? Who has the accolades? Who has the stats? And who is a franchise face?
What in the hell else does everyone want.
I could care less if hes an arrogant money grubbing jerk. So is most superstars.
Philagape
01-30-2011, 06:43 PM
Well as long as were talking about whos got a better team. Lets discuss a few other things. Who makes plays? Who wins? Who has the accolades? Who has the stats? And who is a franchise face?
What in the hell else does everyone want.
The ability to do all that in the NFL.
It's a completely different game.
I can't understand how some people can't see that after all the college stars who have fallen flat on their face.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 06:44 PM
Well as long as were talking about whos got a better team. Lets discuss a few other things. Who makes plays? Who wins? Who has the accolades? Who has the stats? And who is a franchise face?
What in the hell else does everyone want.
I could care less if hes an arrogant money grubbing jerk. So is most superstars.I'm fine with anybody saying they don't like him, or even that they don't want a QB at 3 period. I'm fine with that, I can understand the argument. I don't agree, but I understand.
But when we try to throw stats, numbers, percentages, and trends at a wall hoping something can stick and that we can provide some sort of science to it so we can disregard a player, we've gone too far. It's an unpredictable crap-shoot. Always has been and probably always will be.
You do the best you can to get the best picture you can on a player and then your choose. But it's a gamble, every time with every pick.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 06:45 PM
The ability to do all that in the NFL.
It's a completely different game.
I can't understand how some people can't see that after all the college stars who have fallen flat on their face.Maybe they see the ones who haven't?
I agree, wins do not count. Neither does leadership. And scoring? Pff. Irrelevant. Multidimentional? That didn't help players like Steve Young, why would it help the more physically talented Newton? Also, the fact that he dominated a lower division, and then dominated the next teir a year later earning two consecutive championships only shows that he cannot adapt, and the next tier (the NFL) will only be to fast for him.
He has bust writen all over him.
HHHHUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH. so he cant adapt because he hominated at two levels... Good point.
Figster
01-30-2011, 06:52 PM
The ability to do all that in the NFL.
It's a completely different game.
I can't understand how some people can't see that after all the college stars who have fallen flat on their face.
You have to admit though, Cams exceptional passing skills combined with his 6-6, 250lbs frame/4.5 speed and superstar RB capabilities is an anomaly.
Its not every day a fella comes along with the athleticism and star power/ it factor of a Cam Newton.
YardRat
01-30-2011, 06:53 PM
I think some have either forgotten, don't understand to begin with, or realize how rare it is to hit on a 'franchise' QB. It's a huge risk, and really there isn't a Bills fan alive that shouldn't comprehend that considering the yokels we've put under center in the last 15 years.
jdbillsfan
01-30-2011, 06:58 PM
These are the relevant questions:
Can he absorb an NFL playbook (can't cheat on that), read an NFL defense, go through NFL progressions and make NFL quality decisions at NFL speed?
NOTHING he's done in college can give a clue about these required skills, and no one with his limited experience has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Until he can do that, his Heisman is a lampstand and his championship trophy is a paper weight.
You want numbers, I'll give you Graham Harrell, Colt Brennan and Timmy Chang.
Same questions you could pose about any QB coming out of college.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 06:59 PM
I think some have either forgotten, don't understand to begin with, or realize how rare it is to hit on a 'franchise' QB. It's a huge risk, and really there isn't a Bills fan alive that shouldn't comprehend that considering the yokels we've put under center in the last 15 years.Nor a Bills fan that shouldn't realize what our last franchise QB, Jim Kelly, meant to us.
Look, I'd be happy with any one of the 8 starting 1st round QB's in this years playoffs. Would I love the next Jim Kelly? Absolutely. But I'd be fine if we just end up with a significant upgrade to Fitz. To me that's as little as an above average QB.
Philagape
01-30-2011, 07:00 PM
Same questions you could pose about any QB coming out of college.
Most don't have one season of experience in Div. I.
And people can analyze the specific skills a QB uses in college, what his strengths and weaknesses are.
These are the relevant questions:
Can he absorb an NFL playbook (can't cheat on that), read an NFL defense, go through NFL progressions and make NFL quality decisions at NFL speed?
NOTHING he's done in college can give a clue about these required skills, and no one with his limited experience has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Until he can do that, his Heisman is a lampstand and his championship trophy is a paper weight.
You want numbers, I'll give you Graham Harrell, Colt Brennan and Timmy Chang.
Ok number one. You can cheat. Ask bill bellicheck.
All of the NFL moves. Tell me one player that could do that i college. Oh thats right you cant because you dont make NFL throws in NCAA.
also. How can you say he doesnt have experience. Hes prolly been playing sice he was 10 and now is what 23. He has experience. More in playing football than you have in loving football. So id say he gas enough experuence.
Also i wish you were right about the lampstand and paper weight but the fact is that the "lampstand" is the biggest accolade a college player can earn.
And the "paperweight" is the biggest achievment a college football team can earn. So id say that to call them a lampstand a paperweight is pretty ignorant
YardRat
01-30-2011, 07:11 PM
Nor a Bills fan that shouldn't realize what our last franchise QB, Jim Kelly, meant to us.
I'm certainly not going to knock any on Kelly, but do you remember what Frank Reich's record was as the starting QB for the Bills when Kelly was injured?
Philagape
01-30-2011, 07:20 PM
Ok number one. You can cheat. Ask bill bellicheck.
All of the NFL moves. Tell me one player that could do that i college. Oh thats right you cant because you dont make NFL throws in NCAA.
also. How can you say he doesnt have experience. Hes prolly been playing sice he was 10 and now is what 23. He has experience. More in playing football than you have in loving football. So id say he gas enough experuence.
Also i wish you were right about the lampstand and paper weight but the fact is that the "lampstand" is the biggest accolade a college player can earn.
And the "paperweight" is the biggest achievment a college football team can earn. So id say that to call them a lampstand a paperweight is pretty ignorant
This may be the funniest defense of a player as I've ever seen on this board, and that's saying a lot considering some of the horrible QBs who've had fanboys here.
He's been playing football since he was 10??????? So has pretty much every major college player on the planet! That's supposed to be an argument??
I tell you how much college achievements are (not) worth in the NFL, so you respond by reiterating his college achievements! Wow it convinced me that time!
And this may be the first defense of one's cheating skills ever!!
Philagape
01-30-2011, 07:26 PM
I have to admit it's pretty rare to win a Heisman and a national championship in the same year.
In the past 20 years the only QBs to win both biggest achievements in college football at the same time are:
Matt Leinart
Danny Wuerffel
Charlie Ward
Wow, that's some elite company!
X-Era
01-30-2011, 07:34 PM
I have to admit it's pretty rare to win a Heisman and a national championship in the same year.
In the past 20 years the only QBs to win both biggest achievements in college football at the same time are:
Matt Leinart
Danny Wuerffel
Charlie Ward
Wow, that's some elite company!Well, that's all done now. I guess we can just ignore him since he did both. Winning the national championship and the Heisman means he can't play QB in the NFL.
One less player to worry about.
I mean seriously?
Thief
01-30-2011, 07:35 PM
HHHHUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH. so he cant adapt because he hominated at two levels... Good point.Whatta you a robot? I seriously couldn't have layed the sarcasism on any thicker.
better days
01-30-2011, 07:38 PM
Same questions you could pose about any QB coming out of college.
Well except VERY FEW QB's are caught CHEATING THREE SEPARATE times while in D1 Schools. Schools give athletes on scholarships every tool possible to keep them eligible under NCAA rules including tutors.
To get caught cheating on three separate occasions would suggest Newton is as dumb as a box of rocks or extremely LAZY.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 07:45 PM
Well except VERY FEW QB's are caught CHEATING THREE SEPARATE times while in D1 Schools. Schools give athletes on scholarships every tool possible to keep them eligible under NCAA rules including tutors.
To get caught cheating on three separate occasions would suggest Newton is as dumb as a box of rocks or extremely LAZY.Might be legit, might not. I will let the teams decide.
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/Source-says-Newton-left-Florida-after-cheating-scandal
Philagape
01-30-2011, 07:45 PM
Well, that's all done now. I guess we can just ignore him since he did both. Winning the national championship and the Heisman means he can't play QB in the NFL.
One less player to worry about.
I mean seriously?
Why the hell did I take you off ignore? Can I please put you back on?
X-Era
01-30-2011, 07:52 PM
Why the hell did I take you off ignore? Can I please put you back on?If you want to.
I thought you would be interested in discussing Cam Newton since you are here... discussing Cam Newton.
The concerns I have are about Cam's character and leadership. At 3, I want a face for the franchise. If he isn't that because of who he is as a person, so be it.
But, no, I don't have a lot of concerns about his ability to develop his QB skills.
better days
01-30-2011, 08:01 PM
Might be legit, might not. I will let the teams decide.
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/Source-says-Newton-left-Florida-after-cheating-scandal
As a Gator fan, I can tell you it is legit. All Gator fans knew about this when it happened & Newton withdrew from Florida. I will let the teams decide at what pick he is worth the risk of drafting.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 08:04 PM
As a Gator fan, I can tell you it is legit. All Gator fans knew about this when it happened & Newton withdrew from Florida. I will let the teams decide at what pick he is worth the risk of drafting.Also how much importance to place on the issue.
I mean it's not drugs, it's not assault, it's cheating.
He may be viewed as a character risk, but I could see it being overlooked by some too.
jdbillsfan
01-30-2011, 08:05 PM
Well except VERY FEW QB's are caught CHEATING THREE SEPARATE times while in D1 Schools. Schools give athletes on scholarships every tool possible to keep them eligible under NCAA rules including tutors.
To get caught cheating on three separate occasions would suggest Newton is as dumb as a box of rocks or extremely LAZY.
I was referencing the comments about grasping an NFL playbook, going through NFL progressions and making NFL decisions at NFL game speed.
Those are questions you could ask regarding any college QB.
Extremebillsfan247
01-30-2011, 08:05 PM
Alright. we all have been arguing about cam newton on a ton of threads. how bout we have a thread totally dedicated to Cam. lets hear it all.
i think we absolutely need a qb and nobody can argue that.
that being said. i also think that Cam Newton is the best in this class and we need him at 3 or any number for that matter.
Hypothetically speaking, If they were both available in the 3rd round, who would you take? Cam Newton or Christian Ponder?
Philagape
01-30-2011, 08:09 PM
If you want to.
I thought you would be interested in discussing Cam Newton since you are here... discussing Cam Newton.
Your response wasn't discussing Cam Newton, it was internet straw man rhetoric. Next you'll tell me I "hate" him.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 08:11 PM
Your response wasn't discussing Cam Newton, it was internet straw man rhetoric. Next you'll tell me I "hate" him.Maybe we could just say your not a fan of taking him at 3. And I can understand your take on that.
better days
01-30-2011, 08:12 PM
I was referencing the comments about grasping an NFL playbook, going through NFL progressions and making NFL decisions at NFL game speed.
Those are questions you could ask regarding any college QB.
I agree those questions could be asked about any QB about to be drafted.
My point was from looking at his past, Newton MAY be too stupid or lazy to study the playbook, look at game film etc. & learn so I think it is a bigger question with him than others.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 08:14 PM
I agree those questions could be asked about any QB about to be drafted.
My point was from looking at his past, Newton MAY be too stupid or lazy to study the playbook, look at game film etc. & learn so I think it is a bigger question with him than others.On the surface, I agree. Probably something that teams will look further into. Call me a homer, but in a way I trust in Nix to get a guy who will be just fine as a person, and in Gailey who will develop a guy into a very good player.
better days
01-30-2011, 08:17 PM
On the surface, I agree. Probably something that teams will look further into. Call me a homer, but in a way I trust in Nix to get a guy who will be just fine as a person, and in Gailey who will develop a guy into a very good player.
Well I am with you in that regard. If Nix & Gailey think Newton is worth the risk, I'm on board.
This may be the funniest defense of a player as I've ever seen on this board, and that's saying a lot considering some of the horrible QBs who've had fanboys here.
He's been playing football since he was 10??????? So has pretty much every major college player on the planet! That's supposed to be an argument??
I tell you how much college achievements are (not) worth in the NFL, so you respond by reiterating his college achievements! Wow it convinced me that time!
And this may be the first defense of one's cheating skills ever!!
What im saying about experience is that just because he didnt start for 3 years doesnt mean he doesnt know how to play the game. I will agree that if he had more college PT then it would be more ideal. But the fact is he started one year. And lit it the hell up. Not ideal. But something to look twice at none the less.
You can downplay his and all college achievements all you want. But they will still remain a good base for how well a college player did. Although i will agree that the past few heisman winners have been flops, i think Cam was undoubtably the most deserving of all the players. I am merely using the accolades as a judgement basis.
BTW the chaeting thing was completely a joke.
Philagape
01-30-2011, 09:24 PM
What im saying about experience is that just because he didnt start for 3 years doesnt mean he doesnt know how to play the game. I will agree that if he had more college PT then it would be more ideal. But the fact is he started one year. And lit it the hell up. Not ideal. But something to look twice at none the less.
Not at third overall. It's been posted multiple times now that lack of experience has a pretty strong correlation to NFL failure.
Hypothetically speaking, If they were both available in the 3rd round, who would you take? Cam Newton or Christian Ponder?
well ponder played well in the senior bowl wich raised his stock in my book but i think i would choose cam newton.
There is a HUGE part of this missing.
Workouts
Combine
Interview
Off season issues :)
Pro day
The "coveted" wonderlic test.
There will be an absolutely different tune being sung at that point. Myself included
Not at third overall. It's been posted multiple times now that lack of experience has a pretty strong correlation to NFL failure.
Id like to see the stats for that. First round qb's with a lack of multiple season experience that didnt fair well in the nfl. Id say that list is fairly short.
Ingtar33
01-30-2011, 09:35 PM
Ing,
I don't see Mark Sanchez as a train wreck. I'd be more than happy with a starter who goes to the AFC championship game in his rookie year and 2nd year. Or Roeth who is going to his 3rd SB in 6 years. Roeth had way more starts.
The majority of teams in the past few years that go to the SB have 1st round QB's. And, this year, the bulk of them went with the guy they drafted.
Juniors declare every year, I think they should stay but it's not like that can be controlled. This years top guys are all juniors. We likely won't be picking at 3 for many more years. We have the pick we need to get the best of the bunch this year.
Don't draft one just to do it. Draft one who's worthy of the pick. But don't skip it just because they are Juniors, what's next year going to look like? or the year after? And before you say none are worthy of the 3 pick, be honest, you tend to be more conservative in your rankings on QB's. It's not up to us, the teams will make the choice.
It's an imperfect science and we just can't form rules for this stuff no matter how hard we try. If we could, teams would never draft these Juniors... yet they do every year.
Besides, Gabbert meets your criteria, 31 games started, 60.9% completions. as does Newton, 12 games at Blinn with 61% and 14 games at Auburn with 66%, 20 games total between Auburn and Florida... 32 games for his college career.
Mark Sanchez is a 70 QBR guy. he's basically the NYJ version of Trent Dilfer right now. If he turns out alright, then he'll be an exception to the rule.
next - you misunderstand me badly... and haven't read the post i linked.
Its a NEGATIVE indicator of future success.
generally speaking if you draft a QB missing either the starts (37) or the completion percentage (60%) your failure rate in choosing a qb is an astronomical (86%). The failure rate gets even worse if you pick one missing both.
notice... 14% chance he'll turn out. 4 out of 30 QBs (roughly), or a little more then 1 out of 10.
Meanwhile you take a guy with 37 or more starts and 60% completions and the failure rate is about 40%
sure you still blow 2 out of 5, but if i had to gamble on two prospects of roughly equal value, and one has a 4 in 30 chance of panning out, and the other has a 3 in 5 chance of panning out, i know who i'm taking every day of the week.
X-Era
01-30-2011, 09:44 PM
Mark Sanchez is a 70 QBR guy. he's basically the NYJ version of Trent Dilfer right now. If he turns out alright, then he'll be an exception to the rule.
next - you misunderstand me badly... and haven't read the post i linked.
Its a NEGATIVE indicator of future success.
generally speaking if you draft a QB missing either the starts (37) or the completion percentage (60%) your failure rate in choosing a qb is an astronomical (86%). The failure rate gets even worse if you pick one missing both.
notice... 14% chance he'll turn out. 4 out of 30 QBs (roughly), or a little more then 1 out of 10.
Meanwhile you take a guy with 37 or more starts and 60% completions and the failure rate is about 40%
sure you still blow 2 out of 5, but if i had to gamble on two prospects of roughly equal value, and one has a 4 in 30 chance of panning out, and the other has a 3 in 5 chance of panning out, i know who i'm taking every day of the week.Both Gabbert and Newton are over both your minimum number of 25 starts and over 60% completion percentage.
better days
01-30-2011, 09:45 PM
Not at third overall. It's been posted multiple times now that lack of experience has a pretty strong correlation to NFL failure.
From what we know about Nix, he wants guys with character, he does not like one year wonders, It would be very surprising if the Bills drafted Newton at all let alone at #3.
Ingtar33
01-31-2011, 01:21 PM
Both Gabbert and Newton are over both your minimum number of 25 starts and over 60% completion percentage.
the ideal is 37 starts not 25....
and Newton only passes 25 if you count his junior college starts, which i don't (that's little better then starting against high schoolers)
it gets iffy between 25 and 37... there are some guys in there who worked out... (Aaron Rogers springs to mind, though he was a 3 year prospect). Generally i won't consider a guy with less then 25 under any circumstance...
Sub D-1A guys don't work with this guideline.
As to slavish devotion, i don't particularly think this rule is any good for finding a great QB, just a fantastic way to avoid a disaster.
X-Era
01-31-2011, 01:26 PM
the ideal is 37 starts not 25....
and Newton only passes 25 if you count his junior college , which i don't (that's little better then starting against high schoolers)
it gets iffy between 25 and 37... the are some guys in there who worked out... (Aaron Rogers springs to mind, though he was a 3 year prospect). Generally i won't consider a guy with less then 25 under any circumstance...
Sub D-1A guys don't work with this guideline.
As to slavish devotion, i don't particularly think this rule is any good for finding a great QB, just a fantastic way to avoid a disaster.I'd be interested in hearing where you draw the line on what schools are worthy for counting college starts.
Ingtar33
01-31-2011, 01:50 PM
I'd be interested in hearing where you draw the line on what schools are worthy for counting college starts.
I told you. d1-a
again. this is not a predictor of success but one of failure. Newton could be one of the 14% who make the leap to the pros successfully. I just don't think a 86% possible failure rate is good enough to take a guy in round 1 or 2.
Figster
01-31-2011, 02:08 PM
I told you. d1-a
again. this is not a predictor of success but one of failure. Newton could be one of the 14% who make the leap to the pros successfully. I just don't think a 86% possible failure rate is good enough to take a guy in round 1 or 2.
Wouldn't you agree that on an overall, the percentage of College QB's that make the transition from College starter to NFL starter (successfully) is much lower then 14 % (probably more like 3%)
Wouldn't you also agree that the odds/percentages of finding a franchise/Championship caliber QB is much higher in the 1st round than any other round.
Note: Regardless of any QB success ratio's or percentages is Cam Newton's rushing capabilities. At 6-6, 250 lbs, Fig Newton resembles and runs like a bigger version of OJ Simpson and you have to take that into consideration.
Ingtar33
01-31-2011, 02:32 PM
Wouldn't you agree that on an overall, the percentage of College QB's that make the transition from College starter to NFL starter (successfully) is much lower then 14 % (probably more like 3%)
Wouldn't you also agree that the odds/percentages of finding a franchise/Championship caliber QB is much higher in the 1st round than any other round.
the stats actually are...
30-35% chance of success in rounds 1 or 2 (its actually statistically speaking slightly easier to find a starting qb in round 2, however the difference is not significant)
an average of 13% the rest of the draft. (it's actually about 17% in round 3, and then just drops like a stone)
So just by throwing darts at a board your chance of success with finding a quality nfl starter are much higher in rounds 1 and 2...
Those numbers change radically if you further control for starts and completion percentage. If you only draft QBs with 37 or more starts and 60% or more completions percentage with a round 1 or 2 talent grade, you'll end up hitting on 60% of your QB pics.
As to Newton he reminds me of JaMarcus Russell
Figster
01-31-2011, 02:39 PM
the stats actually are...
30-35% chance of success in rounds 1 or 2 (its actually statistically speaking slightly easier to find a starting qb in round 2, however the difference is not significant)
an average of 13% the rest of the draft. (it's actually about 17% in round 3, and then just drops like a stone)
So just by throwing darts at a board your chance of success with finding a quality nfl starter are much higher in rounds 1 and 2...
Those numbers change radically if you further control for starts and completion percentage. If you only draft QBs with 37 or more starts and 60% or more completions percentage with a round 1 or 2 talent grade, you'll end up hitting on 60% of your QB pics.
As to Newton he reminds me of JaMarcus Russell
Cams rushing skills makes him a completely different beast then JaMarcus Russel and their mechanics differ so I'm not sure where you see the similarities, but to each his own I suppose.
better days
01-31-2011, 05:30 PM
Cams rushing skills makes him a completely different beast then JaMarcus Russel and their mechanics differ so I'm not sure where you see the similarities, but to each his own I suppose.
I would like a BIG Guy like Big Ben that can move around in the pocket & get that 3rd or 4th & short with a QB sneak, but not a running back playing the QB position.
mikemac2001
01-31-2011, 06:43 PM
i get the rule....it makes sense and i like it but i think cam isn't just a rushing QB but i think he needs a few years to learn .
better days
01-31-2011, 07:14 PM
well ponder played well in the senior bowl wich raised his stock in my book but i think i would choose cam newton.
There is a HUGE part of this missing.
Workouts
Combine
Interview
Off season issues :)
Pro day
The "coveted" wonderlic test.
There will be an absolutely different tune being sung at that point. Myself included
Agreed, but you left out an important thing. Draft position. I think most will agree Newton will be drafted higher than Ponder so Newton may not be there at the pick the Bills would feel good about drafting him at while Ponder might be.
better days
01-31-2011, 07:19 PM
What im saying about experience is that just because he didnt start for 3 years doesnt mean he doesnt know how to play the game. I will agree that if he had more college PT then it would be more ideal. But the fact is he started one year. And lit it the hell up. Not ideal. But something to look twice at none the less.
You can downplay his and all college achievements all you want. But they will still remain a good base for how well a college player did. Although i will agree that the past few heisman winners have been flops, i think Cam was undoubtably the most deserving of all the players. I am merely using the accolades as a judgement basis.
BTW the chaeting thing was completely a joke.
I don't understand how you can call cheating a joke. That tells a lot about a persons character or lack of.
I don't understand how you can call cheating a joke. That tells a lot about a persons character or lack of.
I was saying that my origional statement about it was a joke.
Cams cheating issues are not a joke
Figster
01-31-2011, 08:29 PM
I don't understand how you can call cheating a joke. That tells a lot about a persons character or lack of.
Or lack of maturity considering Cam Newton is only 21 years old.
Ingtar33
01-31-2011, 08:34 PM
Or lack of maturity considering Cam Newton is only 21 years old.
I knew cheating was wrong when i was in 3rd grade and got caught trying to copy a neighbors homework.
Never was tempted to cheat again. You're telling me being 21 is an excuse for cheating? Really?
You're ****** kidding me.
Figster
01-31-2011, 08:37 PM
I knew cheating was wrong when i was in 3rd grade and got caught trying to copy a neighbors homework.
Never was tempted to cheat again. You're telling me being 21 is an excuse for cheating? Really?
You're ****** kidding me.
I'm telling you people make mistakes and learn from them
What If you didn't get caught in the 3rd grade?
Ingtar33
01-31-2011, 08:41 PM
I'm telling you people make mistakes and learn from them
What If you didn't get caught in the 3rd grade?
I'm sure i would have been caught later... Or grew up enough to stop doing it... like by 5th grade...
once you get into high school you should know better.
better days
01-31-2011, 10:00 PM
Or lack of maturity considering Cam Newton is only 21 years old.
Well, some people never mature or learn from their mistakes.
"I'M GROWING OLDER, BUT NOT UP".....................Jimmy Buffett
X-Era
02-01-2011, 05:43 AM
I knew cheating was wrong when i was in 3rd grade and got caught trying to copy a neighbors homework.
Never was tempted to cheat again. You're telling me being 21 is an excuse for cheating? Really?
You're ****** kidding me.I don't think it should be excused. I think it should be weighed. If it means his character sucks and that he has no leadership skills, so be it. But many have done way way worse.
Put it this way, I don't think its a given that the guy can't be a quality leader and QB now because he cheated on some homework as a Freshman in college.
X-Era
02-01-2011, 05:46 AM
Well, some people never mature or learn from their mistakes.
"I'M GROWING OLDER, BUT NOT UP".....................Jimmy BuffettDon't draft Jimmy Buffett to play QB.
Look, there has been several threads and a ton of posts questioning the guys character. But ultimately the teams will decide if it's going to be a problem for his future in the NFL or not.
Mike Vick resurrected his career after killing dogs, but Cam can't develop his after cheating?
It's not even a crime.
better days
02-01-2011, 08:14 AM
Don't draft Jimmy Buffett to play QB.
Look, there has been several threads and a ton of posts questioning the guys character. But ultimately the teams will decide if it's going to be a problem for his future in the NFL or not.
Mike Vick resurrected his career after killing dogs, but Cam can't develop his after cheating?
It's not even a crime.
Nobody said that is was not possible for Cam to develop better character. Some people learn from their mistakes while others do not. Nobody knows which group Cam is in, that is the point.
Some team will draft him due to his physical talent, that is a given. The only question is the number he is picked at.
Bill Cody
02-01-2011, 08:57 AM
Or lack of maturity considering Cam Newton is only 21 years old.
Here's what worries me. He matures as a QB and as a man on our dime and in 5 years he's there. He's won nothing with us, we're exhausted by the maturation process and then his contract ends and his dad puts his free agency on ebay and he ends up going to the fins and wins a championship there. Ok maybe that's the Buffalo in me talking but it's a real possibility in Cam's situation/ lack of experience.
THATHURMANATOR
02-01-2011, 09:03 AM
I'm sure i would have been caught later... Or grew up enough to stop doing it... like by 5th grade...
once you get into high school you should know better.
How can you be sure of this?
THATHURMANATOR
02-01-2011, 09:04 AM
Don't draft Jimmy Buffett to play QB.
Look, there has been several threads and a ton of posts questioning the guys character. But ultimately the teams will decide if it's going to be a problem for his future in the NFL or not.
Mike Vick resurrected his career after killing dogs, but Cam can't develop his after cheating?
It's not even a crime.
Good point!
Figster
02-01-2011, 10:54 AM
Here's what worries me. He matures as a QB and as a man on our dime and in 5 years he's there. He's won nothing with us, we're exhausted by the maturation process and then his contract ends and his dad puts his free agency on ebay and he ends up going to the fins and wins a championship there. Ok maybe that's the Buffalo in me talking but it's a real possibility in Cam's situation/ lack of experience.
Until we walk a mile in another mans shoes we just don't know,
Sometimes student athletes struggle, what If the test Cam cheated on, pass or fail, would determine the fate of a whole football program. Coaches, teammates, fans, the college, sometimes the whole state, all depending on Cam Newton.
Cam Newton has made mistakes and sacrifices. Sacrifices for his football team, for the Church, for his Dad, for the kids in his community, the list goes on and on.
Myself personally, coming from people close to him, Cam is a humble, caring individual who understands giving is better then receiving. The character of the man is the last thing I'm worried about when it comes to Cam Newton.
better days
02-01-2011, 11:03 AM
Until we walk a mile in another mans shoes we just don't know,
What If the test Cam cheated on, pass or fail, would determine the fate of a whole football program. Coaches, teammates, fans, the college, sometimes the whole state, all depending on Cam Newton.
Cam Newton has made mistakes and sacrifices. Sacrifices for his football team, for the Church, for his Dad, for the kids in his community, the list goes on and on.
Myself personally, coming from people close to him, Cam is a humble, caring individual who understands giving is better then receiving. The character of the man is the last thing I'm worried about when it comes to Cam Newton.
Well, the cheating & computer incident forced Cam to leave Florida. Being a Gator fan that is a pretty big deal to me as the Gators could have really used him this year.
Nobody knows if he has learned from that or not because after leaving Florida, his father tried to sell his services to the highest bidder. There are big red flags about his character & anyone that does not see that is blind.
Figster
02-01-2011, 11:07 AM
Well, the cheating & computer incident forced Cam to leave Florida. Being a Gator fan that is a pretty big deal to me as the Gators could have really used him this year.
Nobody knows if he has learned from that or not because after leaving Florida, his father tried to sell his services to the highest bidder. There are big red flags about his character & anyone that does not see that is blind.
I can understand why you would take Cams cheating/stealing more personally.
Bill Cody
02-01-2011, 11:57 AM
Until we walk a mile in another mans shoes we just don't know,
Sometimes student athletes struggle, what If the test Cam cheated on, pass or fail, would determine the fate of a whole football program. Coaches, teammates, fans, the college, sometimes the whole state, all depending on Cam Newton.
Cam Newton has made mistakes and sacrifices. Sacrifices for his football team, for the Church, for his Dad, for the kids in his community, the list goes on and on.
Myself personally, coming from people close to him, Cam is a humble, caring individual who understands giving is better then receiving. The character of the man is the last thing I'm worried about when it comes to Cam Newton.
I'm not even focused on the cheating that much although it's a concern, along with his dad. Like Tebow, Cam is a project. Tebow had worse throwing mechanics but he had more college starting experience. For me it really comes down to Cam's work ethic and intelligence. If he has both I'd be on board. But that's because we NEED a QB and I'm willing to take some risk.
Beebe's Kid
02-01-2011, 12:24 PM
I'm not even focused on the cheating that much although it's a concern, along with his dad. Like Tebow, Cam is a project. Tebow had worse throwing mechanics but he had more college starting experience. For me it really comes down to Cam's work ethic and intelligence. If he has both I'd be on board. But that's because we NEED a QB and I'm willing to take some risk.That is how teams end up drafting busts, and setting themselves back a few years.
Fitz is not as bad as many think.
I'll do the unthinkable here...Kelly didn't have a really good season until, you could argue, 1988. That was five years after we drafted him. I know he didn't come right away, but he was playing professional football for five years before he had a good season.
For what it's worth, Jim didn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did until '89.
To say that we NEED a QB, when we have one that is developing at was is a normal rate into a very good NFL QB is a mistake. I know that it doesn't matter what the fans think, but Ralph is under that impression too...it sure would suck to draft some kid, like Newton, let Fitz walk, and put our eggs in the $65 million dollar kid, while he develops, but never really turns into a good QB. Meanwhile Fitz is off winning divisions and conferences, and may even a Super Bowl.
That is how teams end up drafting busts, and setting themselves back a few years.
Fitz is not as bad as many think.
I'll do the unthinkable here...Kelly didn't have a really good season until, you could argue, 1988. That was five years after we drafted him. I know he didn't come right away, but he was playing professional football for five years before he had a good season.
For what it's worth, Jim didn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did until '89.
To say that we NEED a QB, when we have one that is developing at was is a normal rate into a very good NFL QB is a mistake. I know that it doesn't matter what the fans think, but Ralph is under that impression too...it sure would suck to draft some kid, like Newton, let Fitz walk, and put our eggs in the $65 million dollar kid, while he develops, but never really turns into a good QB. Meanwhile Fitz is off winning divisions and conferences, and may even a Super Bowl.
I highly. Ighly doubt fitz will ever win a superbowl. Maybe if he goes to te steelers and they never play him. He mayget a ring. But fitz is never going to be a starting SB qb. He is horrible. Plain and simple. Thank you SJ. LE. and fred jackson for fitz's numerical success.
And if numbers are what matters then whats wrong with cams 30 passing td. And 20 rushing td.
Fact is it aint all about stats. Yea statisticly fitz had a few good games but the fact is he disnt win. And never will. And its all because he SUCKS
X-Era
02-01-2011, 04:13 PM
Well, the cheating & computer incident forced Cam to leave Florida. Being a Gator fan that is a pretty big deal to me as the Gators could have really used him this year.
Nobody knows if he has learned from that or not because after leaving Florida, his father tried to sell his services to the highest bidder. There are big red flags about his character & anyone that does not see that is blind.I think it sends up flags that say "do further investigation on his character". Depending on what they find, they may throw up a red flag, or not.
better days
02-01-2011, 05:11 PM
I think it sends up flags that say "do further investigation on his character". Depending on what they find, they may throw up a red flag, or not.
Agreed. I think the background check & interviews will have a great affect on where Newton is drafted.
Bill Cody
02-02-2011, 10:35 AM
That is how teams end up drafting busts, and setting themselves back a few years.
Fitz is not as bad as many think.
I'll do the unthinkable here...Kelly didn't have a really good season until, you could argue, 1988. That was five years after we drafted him. I know he didn't come right away, but he was playing professional football for five years before he had a good season.
For what it's worth, Jim didn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did until '89.
To say that we NEED a QB, when we have one that is developing at was is a normal rate into a very good NFL QB is a mistake. I know that it doesn't matter what the fans think, but Ralph is under that impression too...it sure would suck to draft some kid, like Newton, let Fitz walk, and put our eggs in the $65 million dollar kid, while he develops, but never really turns into a good QB. Meanwhile Fitz is off winning divisions and conferences, and may even a Super Bowl.
Welcome to Fantasy Island
Night Train
02-02-2011, 12:00 PM
Cam Newton may cause someone to call the Bills while they are on the clock at #3 and overpay for him with draft picks. The Rdskins at #10 and a couple other teams come to mind.
The Draft value chart shows the #3 pick at 2200 points. That could bring an extra 2nd & 3rd (maybe more). We know the Pats already have a boatload of picks and the Bills have multiple needs on Defense. Those last 2 games of the season showed without a doubt our D needs a ton of help.
So I hope some team not named the Bills chases the Newton or Gabbert rainbow and overpays us for our #3 pick. Here's hoping they look acceptable at the Combine and blinds some team into making a panic move.
Bangarang
02-02-2011, 12:37 PM
That is how teams end up drafting busts, and setting themselves back a few years.
Fitz is not as bad as many think.
I'll do the unthinkable here...Kelly didn't have a really good season until, you could argue, 1988. That was five years after we drafted him. I know he didn't come right away, but he was playing professional football for five years before he had a good season.
For what it's worth, Jim didn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did until '89.
To say that we NEED a QB, when we have one that is developing at was is a normal rate into a very good NFL QB is a mistake. I know that it doesn't matter what the fans think, but Ralph is under that impression too...it sure would suck to draft some kid, like Newton, let Fitz walk, and put our eggs in the $65 million dollar kid, while he develops, but never really turns into a good QB. Meanwhile Fitz is off winning divisions and conferences, and may even a Super Bowl.
A QB journeyman whose best season was nothing spectacular is all of a sudden going to win divisions and conferences? Did I just read that correctly?
A QB journeyman whose best season was nothing spectacular is all of a sudden going to win divisions and conferences? Did I just read that correctly?
I know, it is somewhat amusing that people actually believe that. Fitz's stats need to be compared with those playing right now, they they just are not that good.
Lots of people forget about the rules changes that have made this a passing league first and second and that receivers not being able to be touched after 5 yards adds to uplifted QB stats big time.
X-Era
02-02-2011, 06:16 PM
A QB journeyman whose best season was nothing spectacular is all of a sudden going to win divisions and conferences? Did I just read that correctly?I love it. Where the hell is the proof? I mean it's not in the win loss total. It's not in his own numbers... where the hell does this come from? I coud believe this if he had had even one game where he took over and forced a win.
This guy is an average QB at best. I love his grit, but he is average. Get me the wins and I will stand behind claims like these.
And I can easily see his play heading south fast as teams better adapt to our offense. I'd love to be wrong, trust me, but can someone name a game where he showed that he can win when it's all on him?
better days
02-02-2011, 06:30 PM
I love it. Where the hell is the proof? I mean it's not in the win loss total. It's not in his own numbers... where the hell does this come from? I coud believe this if he had had even one game where he took over and forced a win.
This guy is an average QB at best. I love his grit, but he is average. Get me the wins and I will stand behind claims like these.
And I can easily see his play heading south fast as teams better adapt to our offense. I'd love to be wrong, trust me, but can someone name a game where he showed that he can win when it's all on him?
Yes I can name a game it was on Fitz to win & he came through. Against Pittsburg. No QB could have thrown the ball any better. It was not Fitz's fault Johnson dropped it.
The same can be said about any QB heading south as other teams adapt. It remains to be seen how well Vick plays next year now that teams have plenty of film on him & all offseason to devise a way to defend him.
X-Era
02-02-2011, 06:35 PM
Yes I can name a game it was on Fitz to win & he came through. Against Pittsburg. No QB could have thrown the ball any better. It was not Fitz's fault Johnson dropped it.
The same can be said about any QB heading south as other teams adapt. It remains to be seen how well Vick plays next year now that teams have plenty of film on him & all offseason to devise a way to defend him.So you use a game where we lost? Fitz's interception on Pitt's 12 yard line didn't affect the game I suppose.
I mean even if you blame the loss on SJ, you can't say Fitz took over the game to force the win.
And even with that win, we would have won 5 games on the year instead of 4.
X-Era
02-02-2011, 06:38 PM
Yes I can name a game it was on Fitz to win & he came through. Against Pittsburg. No QB could have thrown the ball any better. It was not Fitz's fault Johnson dropped it.
The same can be said about any QB heading south as other teams adapt. It remains to be seen how well Vick plays next year now that teams have plenty of film on him & all offseason to devise a way to defend him.Really? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady became "figured out" in a year and dropped off to average?
Fitz is average now, where is he headed?
better days
02-02-2011, 06:40 PM
So you use a game where we lost? Fitz's interception on Pitt's 12 yard line didn't affect the game I suppose.
I mean even if you blame the loss on SJ, you can't say Fitz took over the game to force the win.
And even with that win, we would have won 5 games on the year instead of 4.
You asked for a game that Fitz could have won if it were in his hands & this was certainly it. You have to be kidding about the interception, even Peyton Manning has thrown interceptions which required a come back. Fitz would be credited with this win if Johnson does not drop the ball.
better days
02-02-2011, 06:43 PM
Really? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady became "figured out" in a year and dropped off to average?
Fitz is average now, where is he headed?
I mention Vick & you bring up Peyton & Tom, the two best QB's in the game today? LOL.
X-Era
02-02-2011, 06:47 PM
You asked for a game that Fitz could have won if it were in his hands & this was certainly it. You have to be kidding about the interception, even Peyton Manning has thrown interceptions which required a come back. Fitz would be credited with this win if Johnson does not drop the ball.You have to be kidding.
Peyton Manning has won for years with a less than top 10 defense.
I asked you to show me a game where Fitz took over and won and you showed me a loss. I asked for a win. Our QB will be called on from time to time to provide the points for a win. We will go up against great defenses that will stuff the run, we need a QB that can win despite that. That's not Fitz. I like the guys toughness but he is average at best.
I've asked this over and over... answer this question, can Fitz win us a SB? or even take us to the playoffs?
X-Era
02-02-2011, 06:50 PM
I mention Vick & you bring up Peyton & Tom, the two best QB's in the game today? LOL.This years version of Vick is way better than Fitz will ever be.
The fans who think Fitz can take them anywhere may be in for a rude awakening. If this team ever does develop at top 5 or even 10 defense, you may suffer through yet another non-playoff season because the Fitz led offense couldn't score enough points.
You need both a better than average QB and a better than average defense.
better days
02-02-2011, 06:58 PM
You have to be kidding.
Peyton Manning has won for years with a less than top 10 defense.
I asked you to show me a game where Fitz took over and won and you showed me a loss. I asked for a win. Our QB will be called on from time to time to provide the points for a win. We will go up against great defenses that will stuff the run, we need a QB that can win despite that. That's not Fitz. I like the guys toughness but he is average at best.
I've asked this over and over... answer this question, can Fitz win us a SB? or even take us to the playoffs?
That was my point about YOU bringing Peyton & Tom into this. I mentioned Vick NOT Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.
I showed you a loss that was due to another players failure. With the game on the line in his hands, Fitz threw the perfect pass. It was not his fault Stevie dropped it.
Well, as a Bucs fan I hated Trent Dilfer. Trust me he was much worse than Fitz, so with the right team yes I think Fitz could win a Super Bowl but unless the Bills have a team comparable to that Ravens team, no he can't win a Super Bowl for the Bills. I do think he could get us to the playoffs.
Nighthawk
02-02-2011, 07:02 PM
That is how teams end up drafting busts, and setting themselves back a few years.
Fitz is not as bad as many think.
I'll do the unthinkable here...Kelly didn't have a really good season until, you could argue, 1988. That was five years after we drafted him. I know he didn't come right away, but he was playing professional football for five years before he had a good season.
For what it's worth, Jim didn't throw as many TD's as Fitz did until '89.
To say that we NEED a QB, when we have one that is developing at was is a normal rate into a very good NFL QB is a mistake. I know that it doesn't matter what the fans think, but Ralph is under that impression too...it sure would suck to draft some kid, like Newton, let Fitz walk, and put our eggs in the $65 million dollar kid, while he develops, but never really turns into a good QB. Meanwhile Fitz is off winning divisions and conferences, and may even a Super Bowl.
So, it is now a normal rate of development to take 7 years to be average and still complete less then 60% of his passes? :help!:
better days
02-02-2011, 07:02 PM
This years version of Vick is way better than Fitz will ever be.
The fans who think Fitz can take them anywhere may be in for a rude awakening. If this team ever does develop at top 5 or even 10 defense, you may suffer through yet another non-playoff season because the Fitz led offense couldn't score enough points.
You need both a better than average QB and a better than average defense.
Well, Vick had a career year, no doubt. Now as you have said, that teams can adjust to his play in Philly it remains to be seen what kind of year he has next year.
X-Era
02-02-2011, 07:12 PM
That was my point about YOU bringing Peyton & Tom into this. I mentioned Vick NOT Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.
I showed you a loss that was due to another players failure. With the game on the line in his hands, Fitz threw the perfect pass. It was not his fault Stevie dropped it.
Well, as a Bucs fan I hated Trent Dilfer. Trust me he was much worse than Fitz, so with the right team yes I think Fitz could win a Super Bowl but unless the Bills have a team comparable to that Ravens team, no he can't win a Super Bowl for the Bills. I do think he could get us to the playoffs.No. You pointed out one play in the whole game as the reason for the loss. I pointed out another play that you simply overlooked.
Fact is, Fitz never took over that game and made, yes made, a play to win the game. You can blame the loss on SJ if you like ( I don't agree by the way) but you can't give the win to Fitz... we didn't win.
Nighthawk
02-02-2011, 08:08 PM
No. You pointed out one play in the whole game as the reason for the loss. I pointed out another play that you simply overlooked.
Fact is, Fitz never took over that game and made, yes made, a play to win the game. You can blame the loss on SJ if you like ( I don't agree by the way) but you can't give the win to Fitz... we didn't win.
People are SO starved for even average QBing, that they become blind to how inept or mediocre Fitz is. My hope is that the Bills don't get caught up in the belief that he is the right guy for the job...because he is not.
That was my point about YOU bringing Peyton & Tom into this. I mentioned Vick NOT Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.
I showed you a loss that was due to another players failure. With the game on the line in his hands, Fitz threw the perfect pass. It was not his fault Stevie dropped it.
Well, as a Bucs fan I hated Trent Dilfer. Trust me he was much worse than Fitz, so with the right team yes I think Fitz could win a Super Bowl but unless the Bills have a team comparable to that Ravens team, no he can't win a Super Bowl for the Bills. I do think he could get us to the playoffs.
couldnt disagree more
X-Era
02-02-2011, 08:24 PM
couldnt disagree moreCheck out this thread:
http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=200303
better days
02-03-2011, 12:26 AM
No. You pointed out one play in the whole game as the reason for the loss. I pointed out another play that you simply overlooked.
Fact is, Fitz never took over that game and made, yes made, a play to win the game. You can blame the loss on SJ if you like ( I don't agree by the way) but you can't give the win to Fitz... we didn't win.
No, I pointed out what you asked in your post. "can someone name a game where he showed that he can win WHEN IT IS ALL ON HIM."
Well it was all on Fitz to make that throw at the end of the game & Fitz made the throw. Too bad Stevie Johnson dropped it. I think in that game Fitz showed he CAN win when it is on him even though the Bills lost because Johnson dropped the ball.
Jeff1220
02-03-2011, 06:25 AM
Idk. I don't really see any point in wasting my energy arguing about it one way or the other because, chances are, no matter what the Bills decide to do, it'll wind up being the wrong choice.
Idk. I don't really see any point in wasting my energy arguing about it one way or the other because, chances are, no matter what the Bills decide to do, it'll wind up being the wrong choice.
hahah wheres your facts to back that up. hahah
so true
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.