If the players don't push back on the owners...

[Stewie]

Who will?

Fans?
The Government?
Broadcasters?
NFL Partners?

What market forces are set in place to counterbalance the natural capitalistic greed from the ownership side?

In a free market, for everything to stay healthy, there has to be checks and balances. If there isn't a check, something else is going to get seriously unbalanced.

It may get to the point where a family of four couldn't even afford to go to a game, let alone get season tickets. Or taxpayers may have to foot the bill for palaces and cathedrals built near underfunded schools.

But I'm digressing... if the players don't push back on the owners, who will?

[Jeff1220]

Who will?

Fans?
The Government?
Broadcasters?
NFL Partners?

What market forces are set in place to counterbalance the natural capitalistic greed from the ownership side?

In a free market, for everything to stay healthy, there has to be checks and balances. If there isn't a check, something else is going to get seriously unbalanced.

It may get to the point where a family of four couldn't even afford to go to a game, let alone get season tickets. Or taxpayers may have to foot the bill for palaces and cathedrals built near underfunded schools.

But I'm digressing... if the players don't push back on the owners, who will?

The players aren't in this to help the fans. They're in it for themselves. What they do in this CBA will not do anything to reduce ticket, merchandise, or DTV Sunday Ticket prices.
And, as far as I'm concerned, the NFL is already at the point where an average family can't afford to go to the games. And w/PSLs, most fans couldn't even consider season tix. I used to love going to games, but in wisely prioritizing my spending, I can't even consider going to games on a regular basis or ever bringing the entire family out to a game some Sunday.
As crazy the salaries in baseball are, at least they still set and tier ticket prices so that the average fan can still go see the games.

[justasportsfan]

The "greed" is on both sides of the table.

[psubills62]

You could say the same thing about the players. Both groups have a certain amount of power in this struggle, and both groups are needed to check each other.

I know there's no limit to greed, but at the same time, if the players weren't commanding such a huge portion of the pot, I doubt the owners would be quite as inclined to raise prices of tickets.

[better days]

Who will?

Fans?
The Government?
Broadcasters?
NFL Partners?

What market forces are set in place to counterbalance the natural capitalistic greed from the ownership side?

In a free market, for everything to stay healthy, there has to be checks and balances. If there isn't a check, something else is going to get seriously unbalanced.

It may get to the point where a family of four couldn't even afford to go to a game, let alone get season tickets. Or taxpayers may have to foot the bill for palaces and cathedrals built near underfunded schools.

But I'm digressing... if the players don't push back on the owners, who will?

The only thing the players pushing back on the owners does is to push prices up for the fans.

[DraftBoy]

Nobody.

[stuckincincy]

The only thing the players pushing back on the owners does is to push prices up for the fans.

The NFLPA is a different kind of union. Most unions want to expand membership, but this one doesn't...its' an exclusive closed shop, IMO.

Some say that the roster limits, and the number of game-day players who can dress - came from the owners. I'm not so sure. Roster size restrictions concentrate the money pot for the union member "ins."


We all recall the term. "taxi squad."


Long ago, the NFLPA could have addressed the rookie $ issue - $ not available to their unionized laborers. I'm sure that the owners would have been receptive to any overture.

[Goobylal]

Why should anyone push back against the owners? It's their league. When the players enter the draft, of their own volition, and sign a contract, again of their own volition, they choose to abide by the rules of the NFL. And for that they are rewarded with $325K minimum and an average of $1.9M salaries, and the chance to make big money as an UFA after a few years. If they don't like it or feel they're being unfairly treated, they can enter the UFL, AFL, or CFL. Enough is enough.

[Nighthawk]

Last time I checked, the owners are the ones who should be getting more of the pie...that's just business. As soon as the players realize this fact, the better for everybody.

[Mike]

As crazy the salaries in baseball are, at least they still set and tier ticket prices so that the average fan can still go see the games.

baseball has 10x more games. It was designed back in the day, way back, when there was no tv, no radio, no real entertainment, and it was designed so any familly or kid can go to a game just about any day of the week. I think they play almost everyday!

If the NFL has even half the games of MLB then ticket prices would be far more affordable. There are only 16 games, and each game means a lot. In this regard its similar to -vaguely- to the World Cup of Soccer which each game means everything and its played every four years. To go to last World Cup of Soccer and watch your team play its Group Games would have cost you $30,000(preliminary all inclusive package) and up! Thats for 3 games...

[Beebe's Kid]

Who will?

Fans?
The Government?
Broadcasters?
NFL Partners?

What market forces are set in place to counterbalance the natural capitalistic greed from the ownership side?

In a free market, for everything to stay healthy, there has to be checks and balances. If there isn't a check, something else is going to get seriously unbalanced.

It may get to the point where a family of four couldn't even afford to go to a game, let alone get season tickets. Or taxpayers may have to foot the bill for palaces and cathedrals built near underfunded schools.

But I'm digressing... if the players don't push back on the owners, who will?

Whoa, Stewie...don't you know that the owners have a ton of money, so you just do whatever and people need to accept that and then it will all be easier...

**** that.

It's already where you are fearing it might get to. Four season tickets is going to run you around $3000. I don't care how you cut it, that is an investment. Then you have to get to the stadium, park, eat, get a sweatshirt, and on and on...

Your concerns are real, and if the second dip in the recession, as has been predicted, hits, the owners and players might not have to worry about who gets how many billions of dollars....unless Snooki, Paris Hilton, The Donald, and the Koch Brothers buy 70,000 tickets and 50,000 sweatshirts and hats, and 35,000 beers, and park 25,000 cars, etc.

[stuckincincy]

baseball has 10x more games. It was designed back in the day, way back, when there was no tv, no radio, no real entertainment, and it was designed so any familly or kid can go to a game just about any day of the week. I think they play almost everyday!

If the NFL has even half the games of MLB then ticket prices would be far more affordable. There are only 16 games, and each game means a lot. In this regard its similar to -vaguely- to the World Cup of Soccer which each game means everything and its played every four years. To go to last World Cup of Soccer and watch your team play its Group Games would have cost you $30,000(preliminary all inclusive package) and up! Thats for 3 games...
Baseball...IRRC, the Pirates are in their 18th consecutive losing season. TThere was an article in my Sunday n'paper. The Yankess have a payroll of $200M+, the Pirates are last at $34M.

The Pirate owners don't care - with the tv $, trinket $ etc., they are rolling in it regardless of attendance.

Your point about the many games is noted. One can attend a MLB game - even with a by-design podunk team like PGH, and you might still see a win. And you can enjoy the game despite a loss.

[Dozerdog]

If the owners get too greedy- it opens the possibility of a rival league starting up and offering top talent an alternative- see the USFL.

But on the other hand- top tier players are just as greedy- they will sign on the dotted line that gives them the best $$$$ regardless of what their union brothers think.

[ddaryl]

if we want prices to come down only the fans can push back.. The players are pushing for a fair chunk, the owners are pushing for their fair chunk.

NEITHER SIDE has even sniffed at reducing prices for fans,

People are suggesting a NFL boycott, but I know sports fans.. they'll come running back with open arms

[EricStratton]

All the feelings on the side of ownership would be more valid is there wasn't an anti-trust exemption in place.

NFL ownership isn't really a free market because a big checkbook isn't enough to get into an exclusive club. Ownership can and does limit who can buy a team and limits, beyond salary, what teams and owners can do with those teams.

The same argument about players choosing to play in the NFL is valid for owners who choose to buy into the NFL.

Ownership, with the help of congress, has eliminated the competition because of the exemption.

[trapezeus]

i just don't get the rage against the players. they take a larger percentage of a pot that is already reduced by $1BN. To be clear, 32 people take $1bn out for themselves and leave a remaining 300+ people without a $1BN.

Next point is the players sacrficed guaranteed contracts to get a bigger part of the pool. Had the NFL said, hey, we'll sign on for guaranteed contracts for smaller amounts, that's something players would have to consider. Just being told, "$1bn is coming out" is not ok.

People are becoming so politicized they can't even see that unions actually do serve a purpose. without them, the league would have just used the highest paid players and given them some incentives and bullied the majority of average to new players from getting a fair chance.

The owners are in whatever trouble they got themselves into on their own. No one told them to pay these outrageous contracts? No one asked them to build a stadium. Have you honestly seen a single fanbase complain that their stadium sucked too much to come too? No.

I think the fans are screwed no matter the outcome, but to side with the owners is insanity. Next time you feel underpaid and undervalued at your job and you get less money, I hope you'll be as quick to defend owners then.

[Stewie]

The players aren't in this to help the fans. They're in it for themselves. What they do in this CBA will not do anything to reduce ticket, merchandise, or DTV Sunday Ticket prices.
And, as far as I'm concerned, the NFL is already at the point where an average family can't afford to go to the games. And w/PSLs, most fans couldn't even consider season tix. I used to love going to games, but in wisely prioritizing my spending, I can't even consider going to games on a regular basis or ever bringing the entire family out to a game some Sunday.
As crazy the salaries in baseball are, at least they still set and tier ticket prices so that the average fan can still go see the games.
I think you're making my point, but your topic didn't address my question.

I'm not saying they're not in it for themselves.

Everyone is, that's capitalism.

What I'm asking is, who's going to keep them in check to create balance?

[Stewie]

The only thing the players pushing back on the owners does is to push prices up for the fans.

This is true, but this is also another issue. The fact that the fans have no push does not answer my question, it is merely one of the warrants to my argument.


Which is that you and I are getting screwed either way, but who is left to push back against the owners?

[better days]

i just don't get the rage against the players. they take a larger percentage of a pot that is already reduced by $1BN. To be clear, 32 people take $1bn out for themselves and leave a remaining 300+ people without a $1BN.

Next point is the players sacrficed guaranteed contracts to get a bigger part of the pool. Had the NFL said, hey, we'll sign on for guaranteed contracts for smaller amounts, that's something players would have to consider. Just being told, "$1bn is coming out" is not ok.

People are becoming so politicized they can't even see that unions actually do serve a purpose. without them, the league would have just used the highest paid players and given them some incentives and bullied the majority of average to new players from getting a fair chance.

The owners are in whatever trouble they got themselves into on their own. No one told them to pay these outrageous contracts? No one asked them to build a stadium. Have you honestly seen a single fanbase complain that their stadium sucked too much to come too? No.

I think the fans are screwed no matter the outcome, but to side with the owners is insanity. Next time you feel underpaid and undervalued at your job and you get less money, I hope you'll be as quick to defend owners then.

I think if we were paid as well as the average player we all would be happy. And I for one am sick & tired about hearing how their careers are so short & they could get injured. Too bad, they will make plenty of money in that time & people get hurt on the job every day.

[DynaPaul]

Why should anyone push back against the owners? It's their league. When the players enter the draft, of their own volition, and sign a contract, again of their own volition, they choose to abide by the rules of the NFL. And for that they are rewarded with $325K minimum and an average of $1.9M salaries, and the chance to make big money as an UFA after a few years. If they don't like it or feel they're being unfairly treated, they can enter the UFL, AFL, or CFL. Enough is enough.

The owners don't play the game... and they rarely fund their own stadiums 100%. Why should they get all the spoils?

[Goobylal]

The owners don't play the game... and they rarely fund their own stadiums 100%. Why should they get all the spoils?
They're not getting all the spoils. They're not even getting a majority of the spoils since over half the the total revenue goes to the players, while owners have other expenses to deal with, including stadium costs.

[Stewie]

I think if we were paid as well as the average player we all would be happy. And I for one am sick & tired about hearing how their careers are so short & they could get injured. Too bad, they will make plenty of money in that time & people get hurt on the job every day.
I'm going to make more money in my career than the average NFL player will make in his football playing career. Granted, they will make their money in 3 years, and it will take me 30, but all of this is about irrelevant as you being sick and tired about hearing of other peoples labor negotiations.

No one has answered the question, and that's because there is no answer.

If the players didn't push back against the owners, no one else will. Therefore, I support the players, especially because they're guaranteed to be out of the league eventually, whereas the owners are only limited by their bank account and lifespan.

[better days]

I'm going to make more money in my career than the average NFL player will make in his football playing career. Granted, they will make their money in 3 years, and it will take me 30, but all of this is about irrelevant as you being sick and tired about hearing of other peoples labor negotiations.

No one has answered the question, and that's because there is no answer.

If the players didn't push back against the owners, no one else will. Therefore, I support the players, especially because they're guaranteed to be out of the league eventually, whereas the owners are only limited by their bank account and lifespan.

Well, I don't support the players taking money out of NFL fans pockets & if they push back at the owners that is who will be affected not the owners. The owners will still get theirs, you can bank on it.

[Spiderweb]

Last time I checked, the owners are the ones who should be getting more of the pie...that's just business. As soon as the players realize this fact, the better for everybody.

Now that is exactly the thinking that will bury the middle class and the poor once and for all. Income distribution in the USA is exceeding levels or inequity not seen since before the great depression, the rich ARE taking more an more of the pie. 35 years ago the top 1% of income earners made 8% of the total income. Now that figure exceeds 23%, all of which leaves less and less for everyone else. I have to give to the ultra rich, they don'[t even have to say a word anymore between the GOP wanting to take from the poor and elderly to give to them (Michigan), massive tax cuts steered heavily toward the 1%, and cutting everyone else, and the conversions of their minions who have taken up the fight for them all while cutting their own throats. When do you say enough?

Welcome to Wal-mart folks, home of the United States of America.

[Nighthawk]

Now that is exactly the thinking that will bury the middle class and the poor once and for all. Income distribution in the USA is exceeding levels or inequity not seen since before the great depression, the rich ARE taking more an more of the pie. 35 years ago the top 1% of income earners made 8% of the total income. Now that figure exceeds 23%, all of which leaves less and less for everyone else. I have to give to the ultra rich, they don'[t even have to say a word anymore between the GOP wanting to take from the poor and elderly to give to them (Michigan), massive tax cuts steered heavily toward the 1%, and cutting everyone else, and the conversions of their minions who have taken up the fight for them all while cutting their own throats. When do you say enough?

Welcome to Wal-mart folks, home of the United States of America.

No, it won't. I didn't say that they deserve to have 80% of the pie, but it's ludicrious that the players get more...that is just bad business. I agree with many of your points, the wealthy are taking too much of the pie, but in this instance, the numbers don't make sense. Also, the Unions are a huge part of the downfall of this state and country. Please tell me why my taxes should be higher to pay for the state employees benefits and then I have to pay for my own benefits on top of that!?!?!?!? Does that make sense?

[Stewie]

Well, I don't support the players taking money out of NFL fans pockets & if they push back at the owners that is who will be affected not the owners. The owners will still get theirs, you can bank on it.

No player has ever taken money from a fans pocket. Oh, sorry... other than Marshawn Lynch.

but I digress, people voluntarily pay to attend games. The owners gluttony can't extend forever.

The owners pay MBA's to figure out how much they can sell their tickets for to maximize revenue, and they will. They can't charge infinity, so they'll charge something less than that, and IMO I'd rather see the proceeds distributed more evenly among 100+ individuals (including coaches and trainers in addition to the players).

[better days]

No player has ever taken money from a fans pocket. Oh, sorry... other than Marshawn Lynch.

but I digress, people voluntarily pay to attend games. The owners gluttony can't extend forever.

The owners pay MBA's to figure out how much they can sell their tickets for to maximize revenue, and they will. They can't charge infinity, so they'll charge something less than that, and IMO I'd rather see the proceeds distributed more evenly among 100+ individuals (including coaches and trainers in addition to the players).

You are deluded, the cost of attending games is so high because of the cost of players salary. Not to mention the cost of the Sunday Ticket on Direct TV.

The players are every bit as gluttonous as the owners.

[Extremebillsfan247]

Who will?

Fans?
The Government?
Broadcasters?
NFL Partners?

What market forces are set in place to counterbalance the natural capitalistic greed from the ownership side?

In a free market, for everything to stay healthy, there has to be checks and balances. If there isn't a check, something else is going to get seriously unbalanced.

It may get to the point where a family of four couldn't even afford to go to a game, let alone get season tickets. Or taxpayers may have to foot the bill for palaces and cathedrals built near underfunded schools.

But I'm digressing... if the players don't push back on the owners, who will? Your right, the players should push back. But there's a right way to do that and a wrong way. There's an old saying " Don't aggravate the hand that feeds you" When you alienate the ones who provide the capital that your paid from, both players and owners pay the consequences for that.

[X-Era]

No player has ever taken money from a fans pocket. Oh, sorry... other than Marshawn Lynch.

but I digress, people voluntarily pay to attend games. The owners gluttony can't extend forever.

The owners pay MBA's to figure out how much they can sell their tickets for to maximize revenue, and they will. They can't charge infinity, so they'll charge something less than that, and IMO I'd rather see the proceeds distributed more evenly among 100+ individuals (including coaches and trainers in addition to the players).Agree. The Bills have historically undercharged for tickets. No one wants to pay more for tickets, but IMO the Bills can charge more and still sell out. If fans are willing to pay more to watch a Sabres game right there in Buffalo, they certainly will pay more to watch the Bills.

And if you think about it, individual ticket sales is a small part of how a team gets it's money. TV contracts and luxury suites bring in more.

Both sides are greedy and IMO both need a reset on the boss/employee relationship.

[don137]

Many fans have their hands tied. Many stadiums have PSLs which they invested thousands of dollars for the right to buy season tickets. If these PSL owners refuse to buy season tickets they lose their seats and the money they invested in their PSL.
Plus, corporations and businesses invest a lot into wining and dining clients by taking them to games. They also signed on for multiple years for a box, Club seats etc so they are stuck too. Hard to revolt when your hands are tied.
.

[Night Train]

But on the other hand- top tier players are just as greedy- they will sign on the dotted line that gives them the best $$$$ regardless of what their union brothers think.

The Raider contracts given out the last 2-3 years by Al Davis are a perfect example.

[Stewie]

You are deluded, the cost of attenting games is so high because of the cost of players salary. Not to mention the cost of the Sunday Ticket on Direct TV.

The players are every bit as gluttonous as the owners.
Fine, but this is America. THey have the right to do that. And we all have the right to ***** and moan about it.

Seeing as how capitalism is set up to raise prices year after year, I can't really fault the NFL for playing the same game.

Nor can I really fault them for selling their product for the highest possible price, because that's econ 101.

So, IMO, I'd rather see the players get more. You give an extra $50,000 to a hundred individuals, most of that $5 million is going to be spent here, instead of sitting in one guys offshore account incurring no taxes.

Believe me, I think it's utterly ridiculous that taxpayers fund palaces for these rich guys to charge outrageous prices to watch their games. The direct TV monopoly is absurd. The whole thing is raping the middle class. I understand that.

Given all that, and that I can't change it, I want the players to get as much as possible. No one in this situation is going bankrupt.

[ublinkwescore]

the players have the money, why don't they just say F*** the owners and organize they're own league? buy their own uniforms and play in nearby college stadiums - that will make the owners shut up and loosen up their check books.

[trapezeus]

Why is it bad that players get paid for the efforts, and its ok that owners get free hand-outs (conservative members of our board please read as "entitlement") and get support of the public.

NFL owners have very little expenses other than payroll. they hardly take care of building or even the upkeep of the building. they put that on the counties and states they are in. they then threaten to move when they don't get more revenue out of the stadium that they didn't pay for. they get more revenues on parkinglots that they don't use. they get more money on PSL's that make absolutely no sense.

The owners are straight up demanding more because they thought they put the players over a barrell with the TV contract.

The fans, regardless of who wins this, will get screwed. Players win, owners will just raise prices. If owners win, they'll still raise prices.

The only proposal i would accept is if the owners asked to take an additional $1BN out of the shared pot and return it to the season ticket holders as a thank you for putting up with all our ****.

[better days]

Agree. The Bills have historically undercharged for tickets. No one wants to pay more for tickets, but IMO the Bills can charge more and still sell out. If fans are willing to pay more to watch a Sabres game right there in Buffalo, they certainly will pay more to watch the Bills.

And if you think about it, individual ticket sales is a small part of how a team gets it's money. TV contracts and luxury suites bring in more.

Both sides are greedy and IMO both need a reset on the boss/employee relationship.

Well, the Bucs PSL license fee has matured so many people opted to drop their tickets & that is why the Bucs had a hard time selling out last year & will again this year even though the Bucs are a team on the rise because "The rent is too damn high."

Thank God I am much closer to Ft. Myers than Tampa because I can get Ft. Myers TV OTA & Direct TV considers me to be in the Tampa market so I can't get the game on the Ticket if it is not sold out.