This Defense Will Still Be Bad Next Season

[BillsFever21]

Just because we drafted Dareus, Williams and Sheppard doesn't mean our defense will all of a sudden be decent let alone good.

These guys are all rookies and even if they do pan out it will take some time with them. Then with DL like Dareus they usually take at least a good year before coming into form. He isn't an D. Suh.

In the meantime we will also be losing some veteran players on a Defense that wasn't very good to begin with. If these guys pan out and perform decent their first year it could be slightly improved but will still be bad.

If these guys end up being busts or if Darius is just a marginal player then it will take even longer. Even with them guys, if they succeed in the NFL, we will need more then that to make this defense any good.

All I know is we better not need to draft a DL for years to come or it will be another blunder for our draft(s). We drafted two guys last year in the first few rounds and a Top 3 pick this year along with having Kyle Williams. If these guys fail our team will be set back even longer.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Holy doom and gloom Batman!

[BillsFever21]

No just stating reasoning. Some think just because we draft some defensive players that our problems are all of a sudden solved. Even if these guys pan out they will not be great in their rookie seasons.

With how bad our D was last year and how many needs we had it's just going to take more then a few rookies who haven't played yet to proclaim our defense fixed and ready for the big time.

[SquishDaFish]

I bet anything our defense improves

[Bangarang]

It's hard to imagine our defense being as bad as it was last season.

[Yasgur's Farm]

No just stating reasoning. Some think just because we draft some defensive players that our problems are all of a sudden solved. Even if these guys pan out they will not be great in their rookie seasons.

With how bad our D was last year and how many needs we had it's just going to take more then a few rookies who haven't played yet to proclaim our defense fixed and ready for the big time.
Perhaps you'd feel better if the Bills simply forfeited all their picks.

Top 10 reasons the D is improved over 2010
1) Dwan Edwards isn't injured
2) Andra Davis isn't injured
3) Shawne Merriman isn't injured
4) Terrence McGee isn't injured
5) Danny Batten isn't injured
6) Alex Carrington is in his 2nd year
7) Arthur Moats is in his 2nd year
8) Torell Troup is in his 2nd year
9) Marcel Dareus is on the team
10a) Kelvin Sheppard is on the team
10b) In addition... Several other 2011 rookies should be able to contribute
10c) There's still free agency
10d) There's still opportunity to trade

[BillsFever21]

Not saying it won't improve but it still won't be good. It's not hard to improve on a Defense that ranked almost last in most categories.

Our defense can improve some next season and still be bad at the same time. That is how bad our defense was to begin with.

Even if Dareus turns into a Pro Bowl type of player, get another starting caliber player out of the rest and maybe some depth with others we will still need some tweaks and other additions to make this defense GOOD not just BETTER or AVERAGE.

Face it we still need help in the secondary and especially at LB. Even if Dareus ends up good we need some other last year rookies on the DL to step up and be productive starters. As of right now we don't have any major pass rushers.

We're still short on starting caliber DB's too unless McKelvin steps up. Sure our defense will improve some next season. Not hard to improve on the worse but to be realistic it is going to be 2012 before we can hope to really reap any rewards we hopefully end up having.

If our defense goes from 31st to a Top 20-25th next year does that mean it's good? Sure improved but far from good.

Until we can get a Defense at least in the Top 15 that can put pressure on the QB, create TO's and hold teams to under 20 points a game you can't consider it a good defense. I don't see all that happening in just one season with a few rookies.

[ublinkwescore]

I think we'll be a lot better actually. and will get better and better each week.

[BillsFever21]

Perhaps you'd feel better if the Bills simply forfeited all their picks.

Top 10 reasons the D is improved over 2010
1) Dwan Edwards isn't injured
2) Andra Davis isn't injured
3) Shawne Merriman isn't injured
4) Terrence McGee isn't injured
5) Danny Batten isn't injured
6) Alex Carrington is in his 2nd year
7) Arthur Moats is in his 2nd year
8) Torell Troup is in his 2nd year
9) Marcel Dareus is on the team
10a) Kelvin Sheppard is on the team
10b) In addition... Several other 2011 rookies should be able to contribute
10c) There's still free agency
10d) There's still opportunity to trade
Edwards isn't anything special

Davis is a dime a dozen

Merriman has to prove he can stay healthy and be his pre-steroids type of player again

McGee will get injured again. He does every year anymore. Just another year older.

Carrington and Troup hasn't shown they are starting caliber players yet

Moats is average at best.

Batten is a rookie coming off an injury. Wasn't even a major draft choice to begin with.

Like I said, of course it will improve some but it doesn't mean it will be good. Do you really see this as a Top Tier type of defense next season? Not going to happen that soon.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Gotta start somewhere... I can actually hope for top 20 or so.

[BillsFever21]

Of course you have to start somewhere. I would take Top 20 next year too but that still isn't a good defense. It's improved but still far from good.

I'm speaking to some who think we are going to be the next Ravens/Steelers type of defense all of a sudden. It's going to take hitting on these players just to be average let alone a Top defense.

[BillsFever21]

It's the same type of people who thought we would automatically be better next year because we had a new coach, Edwards was another year along in the process, etc.. We see how that worked out.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I think I'm starting to get your point... Your OP came across as we're F'd... At least to me.

[madness]

Teams almost always improve in their 2nd year of a new scheme. I'm not expecting leaps and bounds but I do expect our run defense to the break the top 30.

[TigerJ]

I thinnk Dareus is going to make a positive contribution to the defense next season. Alabama's program is closer to and NFL program in terms of sophistication and conditioning than just about any other college, and Dareus might have been the best defensive player in the nation. Sheppard is also pretty close to being NFL ready, though he's not nearly the impact player Dareus is. Buffalo is also going to get much more of a contribution this season From Troup, Moats and Carrington than they did last season. They won't be losing in vteran presence nearly what they will be gaining from that group of five players. For that reason, I expect Buffalo's defense to be quite a bit better. They won't be elite, but they might be up close to the middle of the pack.

[Turf]

I think Wannestadt is the biggest upgrade along with the new guys and maybe a FA LB would sure help.

[YardRat]

I don't think anybody has stated that our defense is all of a sudden this season going to be dominant in the Ravens/Steelers/Packers realm.

[Ginger Vitis]

I agree with your premise.. The defense should be improved but not likely enough it would be a Top 10 defense

[stuckincincy]

Of course you have to start somewhere. I would take Top 20 next year too but that still isn't a good defense. It's improved but still far from good.

I'm speaking to some who think we are going to be the next Ravens/Steelers type of defense all of a sudden. It's going to take hitting on these players just to be average let alone a Top defense.

If Dareus turns out to be as advertised - it will be a big difference. A force in the DL is a big thing.

If he causes a team to keep a blocker in, keeps a spread wide out on the bench, if he causes double teaming from the opponent's OL, if he allows the lbs some east-west latitude, etc. etc. etc.

Many ifs. We just have to see.

You mention Ravens/Steelers. I'll mention Ray Lewis/Troy Polamalu.

I've watched those two play against CIN for years. Job#1 as far as CIN is concerned is to not allow those two to dictate...fact is, CIN goes out of their way to hit the both of 'em as hard and as often as possible. Deservedly so - Lewis/Polamalu dish out a large share of shots themselves. The podunk B'gals' philosophy isn't bad. Within their division...they do fairly well, and the games generally display two teams bent on punching the daylights out of each other.

A pair of great players the both, they usually rise from the deck and come back fighting.

Lewis has a problem with control late in a game, though - commits personal fouls that lose the game. PGH has a problem that, too, *if* there happens to be a ref crew that doesn't buy into the Greater Good of The NFL philosophy. :bath:



Getting back to Dareus.

If I were a division rival.

And he bothered me in the 1st game.


Game #2, I'll call numerous trap plays. Even if the score says no. Hoping for success, but also targeting the gung-ho youngster for serious bell ringings... I own the snap count. I want to teach him a lesson come next season.

[mrbojanglezs]

the lockout sure doesn't help....the lack of OTAs and probably a shortened or no training camp will make it hard for these rookies to make an impact

[better days]

Not saying it won't improve but it still won't be good. It's not hard to improve on a Defense that ranked almost last in most categories.

Our defense can improve some next season and still be bad at the same time. That is how bad our defense was to begin with.

Even if Dareus turns into a Pro Bowl type of player, get another starting caliber player out of the rest and maybe some depth with others we will still need some tweaks and other additions to make this defense GOOD not just BETTER or AVERAGE.

Face it we still need help in the secondary and especially at LB. Even if Dareus ends up good we need some other last year rookies on the DL to step up and be productive starters. As of right now we don't have any major pass rushers.

We're still short on starting caliber DB's too unless McKelvin steps up. Sure our defense will improve some next season. Not hard to improve on the worse but to be realistic it is going to be 2012 before we can hope to really reap any rewards we hopefully end up having.

If our defense goes from 31st to a Top 20-25th next year does that mean it's good? Sure improved but far from good.

Until we can get a Defense at least in the Top 15 that can put pressure on the QB, create TO's and hold teams to under 20 points a game you can't consider it a good defense. I don't see all that happening in just one season with a few rookies.

Your first post said the defense would still be BAD. PERIOD. Not improved, BAD. Looks like you are backing off that STUPID position.

[stuckincincy]

the lockout sure doesn't help....the lack of OTAs and probably a shortened or no training camp will make it hard for these rookies to make an impact

Yep. I read somewhere - who can keep track of the non-stop buzz of info? - that the drafted QBs don't have much of a chance of doing anything. Same thing for other position players to some degree. Add in the vets, at varying degrees of conditioning. Ugh.

[FlyingDutchman]

We drafted two starters and the heart and sole players of the top 2 scoring defenses in college football in Dareus and Sheppard and added a starting cornerback. I think thats about as good as you can ask for improving the defense through the draft

[better days]

the lockout sure doesn't help....the lack of OTAs and probably a shortened or no training camp will make it hard for these rookies to make an impact

The lockout affects all teams. The Bills drafted heavy on defense & everyone knows it takes longer for offensive players to transition to the NFL from college.

[justasportsfan]

Edwards isn't anything special

Davis is a dime a dozen

Merriman has to prove he can stay healthy and be his pre-steroids type of player again

McGee will get injured again. He does every year anymore. Just another year older.

Carrington and Troup hasn't shown they are starting caliber players yet

Moats is average at best.

Batten is a rookie coming off an injury. Wasn't even a major draft choice to begin with.

Like I said, of course it will improve some but it doesn't mean it will be good. Do you really see this as a Top Tier type of defense next season? Not going to happen that soon.


LOL. You telling us that experience in the same system and playing together does not account for anything? Geez lets forfeit the season.


You may be right but you also may be wrong.

[BillsFever21]

Your first post said the defense would still be BAD. PERIOD. Not improved, BAD. Looks like you are backing off that STUPID position.
A defense can still be improved and not be GOOD. So I guess if we go from 31st to 25th then the defense isn't bad.

If you originally get an F in your Math class and next semester you get a D it was an improvement but it doesn't make it a good grade. With that logic though I guess the D was a good grade.

But I guess our defense will go straight to Top 10 next year and be a force in the league.

Also I hope these rookies work out but nothing is proven with them yet. The same stuff was said last year when we drafted Troupe and Carrington that our line would be improved. Or when we drafted Maybin now we would have a pass rush.

Every team could say the same stuff. It remains to be seen whether these guys will be any good. I hope they are but they will not be superstars overnight and our defense will not be good overnight like you seem to think. It will take time.

[justasportsfan]

A defense can still be improved and not be GOOD. So I guess if we go from 31st to 25th then the defense isn't bad.

If you originally get an F in your Math class and next semester you get a D it was an improvement but it doesn't make it a good grade. With that logic though I guess the D was a good grade.

But I guess our defense will go straight to Top 10 next year and be a force in the league.

Also I hope these rookies work out but nothing is proven with them yet. The same stuff was said last year when we drafted Troupe and Carrington that our line would be improved. Or when we drafted Maybin now we would have a pass rush.

Every team could say the same stuff. It remains to be seen whether these guys will be any good. I hope they are but they will not be superstars overnight and our defense will not be good overnight like you seem to think. It will take time.


so tell us how far you think this D will go. Total D? Run D? ass D ?

[OpIv37]

Just because we drafted Dareus, Williams and Sheppard doesn't mean our defense will all of a sudden be decent let alone good.

These guys are all rookies and even if they do pan out it will take some time with them. Then with DL like Dareus they usually take at least a good year before coming into form. He isn't an D. Suh.

In the meantime we will also be losing some veteran players on a Defense that wasn't very good to begin with. If these guys pan out and perform decent their first year it could be slightly improved but will still be bad.

If these guys end up being busts or if Darius is just a marginal player then it will take even longer. Even with them guys, if they succeed in the NFL, we will need more then that to make this defense any good.

All I know is we better not need to draft a DL for years to come or it will be another blunder for our draft(s). We drafted two guys last year in the first few rounds and a Top 3 pick this year along with having Kyle Williams. If these guys fail our team will be set back even longer.

I don't think the D will be great next year, but it should be improved. I agree that it is unlikely that the guys we've drafted this year will make an impact, but don't forget that Carrington, and to a lesser extent Troup, started coming on toward the end of last year.

As far as losing vets, Stroud is washed up. I liked the guy when we first got him, but he was bad in 09 and truly useless last year. I've made my feelings on Whitner well-known and I think his loss will be barely perceptible. And seriously, when I read what people write about Poz on this board, I can't believe they're watching the same games as me. The guy can't turn his hips, can't drop into pass coverage, and can't shed a block. He literally gets swallowed up if offensive linemen get to the second level. Losing these guys probably won't help because as of yet, we don't have anyone who has proven themselves to be better. However, it's most likely a lateral move. We're not going to be worse.

I think we are moving in the right direction, albeit slowly. With the state of this team and the lack of FA, it's about the best we can realistically expect at the moment.

[ServoBillieves]

Wait a minute, I heard this before I even logged on my computer...

"WAHHH, WAHHHH!"

Yeah, we get it, now get over it and accept that the defense is rebuilding. Just because we picked up 2 good D-backs and the best D player in the draft doesn't mean you need to complain... OH WAIT, let's complain about how good Marcell is.

[Thurmal]

Merriman is going to be the X Factor on whether the D is bad or passable.

If we can get him back at 80% of what he once was, it would be HUGE.

[DrGraves]

it will better, maybe not good, but better because:

1. Dareus
2. Healthy Merriman
3. No Whitner
4. We will bring in another starter in FA

[PromoTheRobot]

So what you're saying is there is nothing you can do to improve the Bills defense? Adding better players won't work?

PTR

[mr_kotter]

I still hold out hope that Maybin will learn how to play football.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

That was probably one of the worst defenses to wear a Bills uniform in their history. There is only one way to go, up. I really don't think anyone in Bills nation thinks that the drafting of defensive players is going to magically turn this into the Steelers defense, but they are working on making in better. I am really not sure why this would be posted without everyone here saying DUUUHHHHH!!!

[Ickybaluky]

From the outside I think the Bills look much improved on defense, especially against the run. Having inside guys like Dareus, Williams, Edwards, Troupe and Carrington give them the kind of size up front they have lacked in recent years. They are a bigger team, and that means tougher at the point of attack.

Sheppard is an interesting player as well, and he should be a more physical presence inside. The Pats went through something similar last year when they added Brandon Spikes, and he had a pretty favorable impact in the run game. I think young ILB get fooled by play-action, and how quickly Sheppard can learn to react to play-fakes will determine how big an impact he can have overall.

I think the one area where I would question still is pass rush. Merriman is a big gamble, both that he will stay healthy and that he can still make an impact. Merriman has only played 18 games in the last 3 years and has never played a full season in the NFL. He has been particularly snakebit in the last 3 years, and hasn't made an impact on the field as a disruptive talent since 2007. If he regains his form it would have a dramatic impact on the Bills defense, but he is such a big risk I would look at him like a bonus baby. He isn't someone you can count on.

That said, Moats could fill the role as a sub-rusher from the outside. I don't see him as a full-time player, but he could provide some pass-rush help on 3rd down. I'd hold out more hope for him than Merriman.

Overall, I think the Bills have a chance to be significantly improved defensively, especially against the run. There are a lot of factors that are unknown, but that is true for most teams in the NFL. Free Agency could provide help as well, if it ever starts.

[Buckets]

Orakpo and Suh didn't have any impact on their respective D's. Why is it that only the Bills draft picks will suck the first year?

[ddaryl]

the rookies we drafted last year will be even better this year too...

I'm pretty sure our D will be at least marginally better then last year

[OpIv37]

Orakpo and Suh didn't have any impact on their respective D's. Why is it that only the Bills draft picks will suck the first year?

Spiller
Maybin
McKelvin
Lynch
Whitner

When was the last Bills 1st round draft pick who actually made an impact in the first year? We fired Modrak after the draft so maybe we're finally moving forward, but he had his hands on this draft as well.

Until this team proves they can select a first round draft pick who can make an immediate impact, fans have no reason to expect that they can.

[trapezeus]

on the flip side, how could the defense get worse than last year?

and darieus by some people's accounts is better than Suh. (see: Sports science youtube video)

[justasportsfan]

These guys are all rookies and even if they do pan out it will take some time with them. Then with DL like Dareus they usually take at least a good year before coming into form. He isn't an D. Suh.




I agree. But did you know that Dareus played in a 3-4 pro system under Nick Saban? While most rookies have to adjust to the speed of the pros and learn a new system at the same time ,Darues has a head start when it comes to understanding the system and his role in that system.

I also doubt working harder in the pros will be a new thing to him because Saban demands a lot from his players.

[psubills62]

I agree. But did you know that Dareus played in a 3-4 pro system under Nick Saban? While most rookies have to adjust to the speed of the pros and learn a new system at the same time ,Darues has a head start when it comes to understanding the system and his role in that system.

I also doubt working harder in the pros will be a new thing to him because Saban demands a lot from his players.
I think Dareus will make an immediate impact, though he does have learning to do. At the same time, I'm a little wary of counting on him to do really well early on for two reasons: 1) DL often take at least a year to do much of anything in a 3-4, and 2) the same things were said about Kareem Jackson coming out of Alabama (Saban's system, work hard, could transition easily to pros). He flat out sucked his first year. Which is understandable for most CB's, but he was downright awful.

[justasportsfan]

I think Dareus will make an immediate impact, though he does have learning to do. At the same time, I'm a little wary of counting on him to do really well early on for two reasons: 1) DL often take at least a year to do much of anything in a 3-4, and 2) the same things were said about Kareem Jackson coming out of Alabama (Saban's system, work hard, could transition easily to pros). He flat out sucked his first year. Which is understandable for most CB's, but he was downright awful.


DL is easier than CB.

[PTI]

The defense will be better but will once again have a tough time in the 2nd half from being on the field a lot because of a high turnover offense and lack of getting first downs.

[justasportsfan]

The defense will be better but will once again have a tough time in the 2nd half from being on the field a lot because of a high turnover offense and lack of getting first downs.

this is about the D not the qb position. You already have your "Qb sucks" thread.

[Night Train]

I do expect our run defense to the break the top 30. :rofl: :up:

[psubills62]

DL is easier than CB.
I wouldn't necessarily say that, especially in a 3-4. Both CB's and 3-4 DL typically need a year or so to adjust.

[CleveSteve]

Sadly for you guys, I think a lot of the D's performance hinges on Moats/Merriman being able to get to the QB.

Your DL should be solid with the addition of Dareus, as well as Carrington and Troup having their feet under them.

You ILBs are pretty solid with Poz and the two new guys.

Your secondary should be good enough with the guys you're retaining.

Ultimately, being able to:
1) put the opposition in a situation where it has to pass
2) being able to rush the passer
are what makes or breaks every defense.

To accomplish 1, you're going to have to be able to stop the run. You guys haven't been good at that the past few years, but the additions/maturations on the team should mprove that significantly. Carrington and Troup were coming from small conferences and hadn't seen anything like NFL-quality competition. Dareus will be a day-1 stud. Sheppard can replace Poz and White will be at least good rotational help. Losing Whitner may hurt a bit in this aspect.

However, any run D will wear down. You're also going to have to score points. I'm afraid you guys didn't do enough on the OL to help this out. If you can't score, the other team doesn't have to pass. Eventually, this will wear your defense out, and it will get worse as the season goes on.

As far as 2) goes, your rush is probably going to schematically come from the outside. Merriman needs to be healthy and Moats needs to capitalize on his talent he flashed last year. You can't expect Williams and Dareus to put a whole lot of pressure on the QB from their positions. Your ILBs aren't exactly blitzing terrors.

[Buckets]

Spiller
Maybin
McKelvin
Lynch
Whitner

When was the last Bills 1st round draft pick who actually made an impact in the first year? We fired Modrak after the draft so maybe we're finally moving forward, but he had his hands on this draft as well.

Until this team proves they can select a first round draft pick who can make an immediate impact, fans have no reason to expect that they can.

I'm just sayin. Everybody always says that (Bills) rookies will have no impact but every year some rookies help their teams. I think some of our picks have a chance.

[Historian]

I think the pass rush will be improved, resulting in more take-aways, and I think the run D will be better too.

[mayotm]

this is about the D not the qb position. You already have your "Qb sucks" thread.When Lindell misses a kick, it's Fitz's fault. He should have done something to keep the drive alive. When Morman shanks a punt, it's Fitz's fault. He should have done something to keep the drive alive.

[Extremebillsfan247]

Assuming the Offense has not regressed any, any improvement on defense should be enough to get you 2 to 3 additional wins. Lets not forget that in addition to adding the big 3 in Dareus, A. Williams, and Sheppard, we also brought in Wannstedt to help improve the play at linebacker. I think there is little doubt that we will be a better team overall than we were last season. JMO

[PTI]

Assuming the Offense has not regressed any, any improvement on defense should be enough to get you 2 to 3 additional wins. Lets not forget that in addition to adding the big 3 in Dareus, A. Williams, and Sheppard, we also brought in Wannstedt to help improve the play at linebacker. I think there is little doubt that we will be a better team overall than we were last season. JMO

Sure hope they don't regress on offense. Bills averaged 17.7 a game, good for 28th in the NFL. They scored over 19 points just 4 times. How in the world people think the offense was good is beyond me. The Bills scored over their average number of points scored just 5 times all season, that actually makes their offense in reality be worse then their average to only be over 5 times. That is under your average 11 times. Means the points were heavily skewed by the 49 we had and the 34 we had.

They better be a lot better, like I said, or else the defense will break down in the 2nd half again quite often.

[mikemac2001]

Sure hope they don't regress on offense. Bills averaged 17.7 a game, good for 28th in the NFL. They scored over 19 points just 4 times. How in the world people think the offense was good is beyond me. The Bills scored over their average number of points scored just 5 times all season, that actually makes their offense in reality be worse then their average to only be over 5 times. That is under your average 11 times. Means the points were heavily skewed by the 49 we had and the 34 we had.

They better be a lot better, like I said, or else the defense will break down in the 2nd half again quite often.


Ya but hopefully the D plays better more Turnovers = shorter field plus less points on D will also help us attempt to be more balanced (also if we can stop the run they cant control the clock as well, shorter drives more chances)

also 2nd year in a new offense (with hopefully full training camp with one guy)

i think overall this team will be better in O/D rankings but i don't think a huge jump up.

[Extremebillsfan247]

Sure hope they don't regress on offense. Bills averaged 17.7 a game, good for 28th in the NFL. They scored over 19 points just 4 times. How in the world people think the offense was good is beyond me. The Bills scored over their average number of points scored just 5 times all season, that actually makes their offense in reality be worse then their average to only be over 5 times. That is under your average 11 times. Means the points were heavily skewed by the 49 we had and the 34 we had.

They better be a lot better, like I said, or else the defense will break down in the 2nd half again quite often.
That should change having a full season behind them to adjust to Gailey's offensive philosophy. We are losing almost no one from the offensive side to free agency. This should help a great deal in improving on those numbers. We have to keep in perspective the fact that last season was Gailey's first as not only a HC here but also as the OC. Fitzpatrick didn't even get the starting nod until week 3, and the whole Lynch, Jackson, Spiller routine was destined for disaster from the outset. This is part of what led to the 0-8 start to begin with. Things will be different in 2011, I have little doubt about that.

[Spiderweb]

It's hard to imagine our defense being as bad as it was last season.

Which is what I thought after the 2009 season (particularly the run defense), but the 2010 Bills D proved me wrong.....

It will get better when better players make plays....