So we spent our 2nd rounder last year on a backup?

[X-Era]

In a rotation, Troup will play plenty and is important. But, we spent our 2nd rounder last year on a guy who appears to be a backup. For a team that wants to build mostly through the draft, don't we need starters from several of our picks every year? At this point, Moats is the only starter from last year. In a 3-4, both our 2nd and 3rd rounders last year are backups. And in the 4-3, one or the other is a backup.

Am I over thinking this?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5878/torrell-troup

To be fair, Chris Brown's response was actually this:

CB: The coaches will obviously make those decisions, but here’s what I envision them doing. In a 3-4 set it should be from left to right Dareus, Williams and Dwan Edwards. Carrington and Spencer Johnson are the two rotational ends with Torell Troup the backup nose.
If they choose to go to more of a 4-3 look in the subpackages, Dareus will likely kick inside with Williams. Carrington, who is one of the better pass rushing ends would likely be on the field as well, with possible a stand up linebacker on the right side next to Williams.
In a straight 4-3 I’d expect it to be left to right Dareus, Troup, Williams, Edwards"

[Oldbillsfan]

Actually their first rounder was a back up too, and the one drafted the previous year isn't good enough to play special teams.

Who knows, maybe Troup will earn the starting role. Depth would be a nice problem to have on the last ranked run defense.

[X-Era]

Actually their first rounder was a back up too, and the one drafted the previous year isn't good enough to play special teams.

Who knows, maybe Troup will earn the starting role. Depth would be a nice problem to have on the last ranked run defense.On the depth, absolutely. We can't have enough good D-lineman. But this is a 4 win team that appears to be netting backups in the first few rounds of the past few drafts.

[Mr. Pink]

Players like Troup and moreso Maybin are the reason this is a 4 win football team. You cannot overcome year after year after year of bad drafts.

[EDS]

In a rotation, Troup will play plenty and is important. But, we spent our 2nd rounder last year on a guy who appears to be a backup. For a team that wants to build mostly through the draft, don't we need starters from several of our picks every year? At this point, Moats is the only starter from last year. In a 3-4, both our 2nd and 3rd rounders last year are backups. And in the 4-3, one or the other is a backup.

Am I over thinking this?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5878/torrell-troup

To be fair, Chris Brown's response was actually this:

CB: The coaches will obviously make those decisions, but here’s what I envision them doing. In a 3-4 set it should be from left to right Dareus, Williams and Dwan Edwards. Carrington and Spencer Johnson are the two rotational ends with Torell Troup the backup nose.
If they choose to go to more of a 4-3 look in the subpackages, Dareus will likely kick inside with Williams. Carrington, who is one of the better pass rushing ends would likely be on the field as well, with possible a stand up linebacker on the right side next to Williams.
In a straight 4-3 I’d expect it to be left to right Dareus, Troup, Williams, Edwards"

We should be thankful that some of the latter round guys and undrafted free agents in the last few years (i.e., Peters, Greer, Jackson, Johnson, Bell, etc.) have amounted to something otherwise this would be a historically bad team.

[Night Train]

Troup reportedly in some intense workout regime that has him up to a solid 328 lbs.

He'll be on the field a lot in year 2, since many 4-3 sets will be common. Carrington will see snaps.

[justasportsfan]

Lets see everything unfold first before we start making assumptions about this years line-up.

[DraftBoy]

Troup reportedly in some intense workout regime that has him up to a solid 328 lbs.

He'll be on the field a lot in year 2, since many 4-3 sets will be common. Carrington will see snaps.

How will he see the field in our 43 sets? KW and Dareus are the 43 DT's. And many posters dont want to sit KW on 3rd and pass since he's one of our best pass rushers.

[DraftBoy]

Lets see everything unfold first before we start making assumptions about this years line-up.

Why? This is all we can do till this stupid lockout is resolved.

[acehole]

Would not get to excited here...these guys will rotate more the sabs mom at at Rappers bachelor party.

So whoever is on the field opening snap would not make to much difference.



In a rotation, Troup will play plenty and is important. But, we spent our 2nd rounder last year on a guy who appears to be a backup. For a team that wants to build mostly through the draft, don't we need starters from several of our picks every year? At this point, Moats is the only starter from last year. In a 3-4, both our 2nd and 3rd rounders last year are backups. And in the 4-3, one or the other is a backup.

Am I over thinking this?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5878/torrell-troup

To be fair, Chris Brown's response was actually this:

CB: The coaches will obviously make those decisions, but here’s what I envision them doing. In a 3-4 set it should be from left to right Dareus, Williams and Dwan Edwards. Carrington and Spencer Johnson are the two rotational ends with Torell Troup the backup nose.
If they choose to go to more of a 4-3 look in the subpackages, Dareus will likely kick inside with Williams. Carrington, who is one of the better pass rushing ends would likely be on the field as well, with possible a stand up linebacker on the right side next to Williams.
In a straight 4-3 I’d expect it to be left to right Dareus, Troup, Williams, Edwards"

[justasportsfan]

Why? This is all we can do till this stupid lockout is resolved.

it almost sounds like we're complaining about blowing a 2nd and we don't even have a team yet. troup may very well be a stud player for us just like a 5th rd. pick in 2006 turned out to be one for us.

[X-Era]

it almost sounds like we're complaining about blowing a 2nd and we don't even have a team yet.

To me the question is this: Do we need to be drafting more starters and studs if we truly plan to build the team through the draft?

I guess I feel like the answer to that may be yes.

[justasportsfan]

To me the question is this: Do we need to be drafting more starters and studs if we truly plan to build the team through the draft?

I guess I feel like the answer to that may be yes.

you have to understand the situation we were in when we drafted troup. Everyone was saying Kyle was not a fit, blah,blah , blah so we drafted one . Now that kyle turned out to be a stud we're questioning drafting Troup? If Mckelvin turns the corner and becomes a stud cb this season are we going to complain about drafting Aaron Williams next year?

[Raptor]

I think Troup will eventually be the starter. Thing is it takes time for these guys to develop , just ask Phins about Solai(sp?) and Franklin from SF.

Plus having a deep DL is never a bad thing. obviously they need to develop but this is the best i've felt about this unit in years

[justasportsfan]

Plus having a deep DL is never a bad thing.
exactly. Even if Troup comes in during rotation but kicks ass and takes names, I won't have a problem with that. That simply means that the guys ahead of him are doing well.

[Bangarang]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Troup starting and being the anchor of our 3-4 defense in a year or 2. Right now, he's probably not good enough to take the job from Williams.

[X-Era]

you have to understand the situation we were in when we drafted troup. Everyone was saying Kyle was not a fit, blah,blah , blah so we drafted one . Now that kyle turned out to be a stud we're questioning drafting Troup? If Mckelvin turns the corner and becomes a stud cb this season are we going to complain about drafting Aaron Williams next year?I get that. Theres no harm in having depth on the DL. I'm only saying that this 4 win team need much better talent in many places. To get where we want to be, we need more than a backup who may be a starter in a few years from our 2nd rounders and probably even our 3rd rounders. The Dareus pick was home run to me, he may make everyone better. We may end up finding that a few guys will become very good with Dareus in the mix. But, to me the ceiling is still a bit lower than we need when you build this way.

This year may be the difference maker.

[BillsFanCupp38]

Hey some day Kyle Williams will be gone and Troup will have to be the veteran that picks up the load. Kinda like when Pat Williams was playing under Ted Washington?

[justasportsfan]

I get that. Theres no harm in having depth on the DL. I'm only saying that this 4 win team need much better talent in many places. To get where we want to be, we need more than a backup who may be a starter in a few years from our 2nd rounders and probably even our 3rd rounders. The Dareus pick was home run to me, he may make everyone better. We may end up finding that a few guys will become very good with Dareus in the mix. But, to me the ceiling is still a bit lower than we need when you build this way.

This year may be the difference maker.

no one has a crystal ball when it comes to drafting. Not even the Pats whose recent drafts have had misses.

[ddaryl]

3 quality lineman in rotation ???? that's a problem? Dareus and Williams won't play every down, and you can't possibly have an argument against having 3 quality DT's in this league, and nobody could possibly predict we would be picking up another quality DT in the 2011 draft, but that's the way the cards fell...

I think we're gonna be damn glad to have Williams Dareus and Troup

[tampabay25690]

Players like Troup and moreso Maybin are the reason this is a 4 win football team. You cannot overcome year after year after year of bad drafts.

How can you say that about Troup yet??

[BertSquirtgum]

Am I over thinking this?

yes

[justasportsfan]

How can you say that about Troup yet??
I doubt anyone here said Kyle would be as good as he is when he was drafted and even after his first year. People even said he couldn't fit in a 3-4 in what was his 4th yr.,yet we're ready to write off troup who was a 2nd rd pick after 1 year? Even if we reached for him like some people say we did, Kyle was a 5th rd. pick.

[Mr. Pink]

How can you say that about Troup yet??


Because we wasted a 2nd round pick on a guy who'll never be more that a situational player.

We already had a good tackle in Williams and now we're heavily invested in another tackle.

Where does that leave Troup in terms of playing time?

[YardRat]

Troup will eventually be the starter at NT. I'm just glad we didn't spend a first or second rounder this year on a future cut QB.

[BillsFever21]

If it was the OL or LB it would be more of a problem to me but since it is the DL I can live with it a little more if that's how the cards fall.

On the DL it's a very physical position where you are frequently rotating guys in and out. If we did have a one or two decent backups in Carrington and Troupe that could carry the load then at least they would be useful.

If they all pan out and you can rotate these guys in and keep them fresh for late in the game it can only help in the 4th Quarter. Also if Carrington ends up being any good at all it wouldn't take him long to overtake Edwards as the starting spot. Edwards is just an average DE.

If Troupe turns out to be decent then you could conceivably leave Dareus on the outside instead of moving him inside and have Troupe and Williams man the middle during the 4-3 set.

At least with DT's there are room for backups to still get a decent amount of snaps. Many good DL's have depth where they can strategically rotate their players in and out for certain plays/downs and to also keep the line fresh.

DT's also can break down very easily in their late 20's/early 30's. Hopefully Troupe works out in the event Williams gets injured or for nothing else just to keep him fresh throughout the season.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

after williams and dareus in 43 at dt there is troup, he is basically a starter. wtf are you talking about. you need 6-7 starters on the dline anyway.

[BertSquirtgum]

Because we wasted a 2nd round pick on a guy who'll never be more that a situational player.

We already had a good tackle in Williams and now we're heavily invested in another tackle.

Where does that leave Troup in terms of playing time?

you do know that dareus is a 3-4 DE right?

[Extremebillsfan247]

In a rotation, Troup will play plenty and is important. But, we spent our 2nd rounder last year on a guy who appears to be a backup. For a team that wants to build mostly through the draft, don't we need starters from several of our picks every year? At this point, Moats is the only starter from last year. In a 3-4, both our 2nd and 3rd rounders last year are backups. And in the 4-3, one or the other is a backup.

Am I over thinking this?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5878/torrell-troup

To be fair, Chris Brown's response was actually this:

CB: The coaches will obviously make those decisions, but here’s what I envision them doing. In a 3-4 set it should be from left to right Dareus, Williams and Dwan Edwards. Carrington and Spencer Johnson are the two rotational ends with Torell Troup the backup nose.
If they choose to go to more of a 4-3 look in the subpackages, Dareus will likely kick inside with Williams. Carrington, who is one of the better pass rushing ends would likely be on the field as well, with possible a stand up linebacker on the right side next to Williams.
In a straight 4-3 I’d expect it to be left to right Dareus, Troup, Williams, Edwards"
Drafting players isn't an exact science. Everyone who posts here I would suspect, already knows that to be common knowledge. However, If he is a really good DT prospect that has to be forced into a position of a supporting role, wouldn't the logic then be that maybe we are beginning a process of being more formidable at that position? My personal perspective is that this is a good thing and not a bad one. On a defense in the middle of transition like ours, you can never have enough good dline and linebackers. But that is my opinion.

[X-Era]

Drafting players isn't an exact science. Everyone who posts here I would suspect, already knows that to be common knowledge. However, If he is a really good DT prospect that has to be forced into a position of a supporting role, wouldn't the logic then be that maybe we are beginning a process of being more formidable at that position? My personal perspective is that this is a good thing and not a bad one. On a defense in the middle of transition like ours, you can never have enough good dline and linebackers. But that is my opinion.I agree, as I've said, that depth on the DL is very important. However, what was the trade-off? On a 4 win team we have a whole host of needs.

The concept is supposed to be to build a SB winning team primarily through the draft.

I personally do not agree fully with the concept. I think you need to be aggressive in all phases of the off-season... free agency, the draft, and trades. You also have to be smart and not over spend, over draft, etc... But we want to focus mainly on building our SB winning team through the draft.

Well, are we getting there? Is it working?

I mean, at this point, our top 3 picks last year are backups.

[zone]

IMO it doesn't really matter where a player is drafted. I don't care if our team is filled with UDFA if they can contribute and help the team win games.

[Billsouth]

Who would u rather have..troup or claussen?

[X-Era]

IMO it doesn't really matter where a player is drafted. I don't care if our team is filled with UDFA if they can contribute and help the team win games.Totally agree... Is it working?

[zone]

Totally agree... Is it working?
Hopefully, lets see when and if the season comes.

[tampabay25690]

Because we wasted a 2nd round pick on a guy who'll never be more that a situational player.

We already had a good tackle in Williams and now we're heavily invested in another tackle.

Where does that leave Troup in terms of playing time?

Just because you draft a player in the 2nd doesn't guarantee he even makes the team.....

We could use another DT as well...
Just because we have Dareus, Troup, and Williams doesnt mean we are totally set....Better shape yes....
We could see all 3 guys out there in a series you never know.....
Troup will be fine....
I like the 3 guys we have now this should help this team up the middle.....
I don't consider Troup a waste of pick at all.....

[DesertFox24]

To me the question is this: Do we need to be drafting more starters and studs if we truly plan to build the team through the draft?

I guess I feel like the answer to that may be yes.

Understand what you are saying but when they drafted Troup they did not know how Williams was going to handle nose duty.

Also Troup is not a bad player and it has been proven that you win in this league in the trenches (stopping the run, pressuring the passer, being able to run, and protection).

I have no problem with this pick because if you look at last years stats Troup did play quite a bit, and having Dareus now is even better and more competition. What was our weakness last year is becoming one of our stronger and deeper positions.

Also until we see what we do this year we don't really know what Troup is going to be doing. He might line up as a DE in some short yardage situations like the Ravens do with Ngata.

As long as the guy is getting on the field then that is a good thing at this point.

[mysticsoto]

I get that. Theres no harm in having depth on the DL. I'm only saying that this 4 win team need much better talent in many places. To get where we want to be, we need more than a backup who may be a starter in a few years from our 2nd rounders and probably even our 3rd rounders. The Dareus pick was home run to me, he may make everyone better. We may end up finding that a few guys will become very good with Dareus in the mix. But, to me the ceiling is still a bit lower than we need when you build this way.

This year may be the difference maker.

How do we know Troup wouldn't be an average to good starter at NT, except that he's behind someone playing at a probowl caliber level and as such has to sit and wait his turn?

I don't think anybody envisioned Kyle, a 4-3 DT, turning it up a notch and taking it to the next level. He was always considered "ok"as far as what Jauron had him do. Now he's playing exceptional. That's not a reason to complain about drafting Troup.

If we want to complain about last year's draft, the #1 place to do so would be the Spiller pick - which made no sense having FJ, and at the time, Lynch. Hell, later, we got Joique Bell who would have made a great #2 behind FJ if the plan was to get rid of Lynch all along. It just made no sense at all. I think they thought they were getting an Adrian Peterson - and they were wrong.

[Dujek]

On the depth, absolutely. We can't have enough good D-lineman. But this is a 4 win team that appears to be netting backups in the first few rounds of the past few drafts.

But Kyle Williams was outstanding last year. They obviously took Troup because they didn't realise quite what they had with Williams, when he's turned out to be a Pro-Bowler it's pretty hard to shift him from the lineup to bring in Troup.

And given how Williams played previously under Jauron it's hard to argue with them picking someone they thought could be a better option at starter.

Troup's a backup because Williams is good, not because he's bad.

[Buckets]

How will he see the field in our 43 sets? KW and Dareus are the 43 DT's. And many posters dont want to sit KW on 3rd and pass since he's one of our best pass rushers.

You're assuming Troup will not show improvement.

[k-oneputt]

SEC players vs. Conf. USA and Sunbelt players.

Who do you think is starting and playing ?
I forgot, Dareus still has to "earn" his position.

[EDS]

But Kyle Williams was outstanding last year. They obviously took Troup because they didn't realise quite what they had with Williams, when he's turned out to be a Pro-Bowler it's pretty hard to shift him from the lineup to bring in Troup.

And given how Williams played previously under Jauron it's hard to argue with them picking someone they thought could be a better option at starter.

Troup's a backup because Williams is good, not because he's bad.

Williams went to the pro bowl the year before they drafted Troup.

[psubills62]

Because we wasted a 2nd round pick on a guy who'll never be more that a situational player.

We already had a good tackle in Williams and now we're heavily invested in another tackle.

Where does that leave Troup in terms of playing time? It must be nice knowing exactly how good a 3-4 DL will be after only their first year. Considering nearly all of them do absolutely nothing their first year, it's amazing that you can already see that he'll "never be more than a situational player."

Getting DL in a 3-4 is never a waste. Steelers used a first rounder two years ago on Evander Hood when they already had Keisel and Smith. They took Cam Heyward this year when they had Hood, Keisel, and Smith. Sione Pouha was drafted in 2005 in the third round. Started one game his first four years. The last two years, he's anchored one of the best run defenses in the NFL after Kris Jenkins went down. Baltimore drafted Cody when they've got Gregg, Ngata, etc. DL are important, even in a rotation, and you always want to make sure you've got quality depth on the DL. Same reason GB drafted Mike Neal in the second round when they already had DL.

Nobody knows how good or bad Troup might be. He might be a great rotational player, or he might be a bad one. Simply saying he's second string right now doesn't really mean much. Are we really criticizing the only guy who is sitting behind a Pro Bowler and hasn't played in his second year yet?

[trapezeus]

On the depth, absolutely. We can't have enough good D-lineman. But this is a 4 win team that appears to be netting backups in the first few rounds of the past few drafts.

a step up from getting busts before, no?

i think for the defense, you need about 5-8 good DL on your team. they will get injured, they will get tired. to rotate good players with great players will make a huge difference. That's my opinion.

and you are right, we were a 4-12 team last year...so clearly, our starters last year werent' good enough.

[Mahdi]

I think the Bills understand what they have in KW. He is a great penetrating NT and a decent run defender.

Troup has a chance to take KW off the field on 1st down and in short yardage situations. KW will be in in all passing situations, which in the NFL is a lot. That way they both stay fresh.

I don't see Dareus coming off the field too often so Carrington will keep Edwards fresh.

[OpIv37]

In a rotation, Troup will play plenty and is important. But, we spent our 2nd rounder last year on a guy who appears to be a backup. For a team that wants to build mostly through the draft, don't we need starters from several of our picks every year? At this point, Moats is the only starter from last year. In a 3-4, both our 2nd and 3rd rounders last year are backups. And in the 4-3, one or the other is a backup.

Am I over thinking this?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5878/torrell-troup

To be fair, Chris Brown's response was actually this:

CB: The coaches will obviously make those decisions, but here’s what I envision them doing. In a 3-4 set it should be from left to right Dareus, Williams and Dwan Edwards. Carrington and Spencer Johnson are the two rotational ends with Torell Troup the backup nose.
If they choose to go to more of a 4-3 look in the subpackages, Dareus will likely kick inside with Williams. Carrington, who is one of the better pass rushing ends would likely be on the field as well, with possible a stand up linebacker on the right side next to Williams.
In a straight 4-3 I’d expect it to be left to right Dareus, Troup, Williams, Edwards"

You mean the Bills ****ed up their early picks in the draft? Does this actually shock you at this point?

I'm hoping it ends this year, as it now appears that Modrak didn't have his incompetent hands all over this draft as he's had for the last 10 years (even with the new staff last year, they would have had to rely heavily on Modrak as they wouldn't have had the time to put in their own people or investigate for themselves).

The only salvation is that Kyle Williams, a 5th round pick, is playing far better than anyone expected, but this is consistent too. Throughout the Decade of Fail, the Bills have been good at finding late-round draft picks and even some UDFA's who turn into quality players (Jason Peters and Fred Jackson come immediately to mind, as well as Williams, George Wilson, Steve Johnson, etc). It's the first 3-4 rounds that we consistently botch, and 2010 is looking like no exception.

Along the same lines, it bothers me to see so many people on this board talking about the guys we drafted this year being instant starters. Even Nix himself said he expects the first 5 picks to become starters. This is not a sign of a good draft. It's a sign of the piss-poor quality of the guys we had before the draft.

[TigerJ]

I'm OK with that. before the season started, they really did not know for certain if Kyle Williams could transition to nose tackle and be effective. I think the experiment exceeded their expectations, but Williams is still somewhat limited. II think he's more effective agains the pass than the run for instance. I think that Troup is going to get a significant percentage of reps even if he does not start, including obvious run downs.

[OpIv37]

I'm OK with that. before the season started, they really did not know for certain if Kyle Williams could transition to nose tackle and be effective. I think the experiment exceeded their expectations, but Williams is still somewhat limited. II think he's more effective agains the pass than the run for instance. I think that Troup is going to get a significant percentage of reps even if he does not start, including obvious run downs.

in this particular case, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. But still, we used our 2nd round draft pick on a NT last year and our first round draft pick on an NT this year. We have to stop this trend of draft picks underperforming, because that just leads to us drafting the same positions year after year after year.

[psubills62]

in this particular case, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. But still, we used our 2nd round draft pick on a NT last year and our first round draft pick on an NT this year. We have to stop this trend of draft picks underperforming, because that just leads to us drafting the same positions year after year after year.
Dareus may play NT some, but he'll mainly be a DE.

[acehole]

ok wow.

1.To Early to say we wasted a pick on Troup as he has not played much.

2.In the NFL you can have more then one tackle.

3. Our first rounder this year is a DE/DT.

4. DT in the NFL are aloud to rotate and often do as they get tired....DT in waves is a very effective way to tire out olinemen...as was invented to counter us in the no huddle offense years ago.

5. If our coaches have not cut mabin yet they are not giving up on troup for a decade.

6. Word has it he is working hard in off season (Troup) and should play a major roll in the offensive rotation of this deffense.



Because we wasted a 2nd round pick on a guy who'll never be more that a situational player.

We already had a good tackle in Williams and now we're heavily invested in another tackle.

Where does that leave Troup in terms of playing time?

[justasportsfan]

Well, are we getting there? Is it working?

I mean, at this point, our top 3 picks last year are backups.


It's been a year. How can you grade anything after a year?


In Butlers and Nix's 1st year as GM of the Chargers the team went 5-11. You probably would have complained about Drew Brees after his first year and then complained again after they drafted Rivers.

You most likely would have complained about Aaron Rogers after his rookie season.

[TigerJ]

in this particular case, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. But still, we used our 2nd round draft pick on a NT last year and our first round draft pick on an NT this year. We have to stop this trend of draft picks underperforming, because that just leads to us drafting the same positions year after year after year.I'll be shocked if Dareus lines up at NT for more than a very few times per game. I could see the Bills running stunts where Dareus jumps to the inside after the snap, but I don't see him lining up there much at all.

[Dr. Lecter]

Look at it this way - the second pick from 2 years ago was cut.

So this is an improvement.

[Ed]

I don't really understand the point of this thread. With how much D-lineman rotate does it really matter who's the starter and who's the back-up? All of these guys are going to have a role and their fair share of playing time. I don't expect any of these guys to play every down. What matters is if they can make an impact with the opportunities they get. I care more about the quality of the snaps then the quantity.

Plus, it's highly unlikely that all are D-lineman make it through the whole season without any injuries. We could easily lose a couple of these guys for a significant amount of time, so DL depth is critical.

Everyone complained last year that we were switching to a 3-4, but didn't have any 3-4 D-lineman and that it all starts in the trenches and the line is the most important unit on the defense. So we draft a few 3-4 D-lineman and now people are disappointed that we drafted D-lineman...

[justasportsfan]

Everyone complained last year that we were switching to a 3-4, but didn't have any 3-4 D-lineman and that it all starts in the trenches and the line is the most important unit on the defense. So we draft a few 3-4 D-lineman and now people are disappointed that we drafted D-lineman...


It's not our FO's fault that Kyle stepped up and played well enough to keep Troup on the bench.

[X-Era]

It's been a year. How can you grade anything after a year?


In Butlers and Nix's 1st year as GM of the Chargers the team went 5-11. You probably would have complained about Drew Brees after his first year and then complained again after they drafted Rivers.

You most likely would have complained about Aaron Rogers after his rookie season.I'm going to use Nix's own words against him here... I just finished watching the "Inside Buffalo's Draft Room" video at BB.com...

At the end Nix says, "If you can get three starters out of every draft, you will be pretty good in a hurry".

I don't agree with him there. In 3 years you end up with 9 starters. There's 11 on either side of the ball and were starting from a 4 win team... and it again assumes 3 starters from each draft... what happens if you only get 1 or 2? How long does it take then?

[justasportsfan]

I'm going to use Nix's own words against him here... I just finished watching the "Inside Buffalo's Draft Room" video at BB.com...

At the end Nix says, "If you can get three starters out of every draft, you will be pretty good in a hurry".

I don't agree with him there. In 3 years you end up with 9 starters. There's 11 on either side of the ball and were starting from a 4 win team... and it again assumes 3 starters from each draft... what happens if you only get 1 or 2? How long does it take then?


you're arguing with whats been proven. See the chargers . They've always been competitive because their core was built through the draft.

Are you forgetting about what heppened during the Spikes, Fletcher ,Milloy era? They all outgrew the young ones and then we ended up in a mess with no core players.

Again, do you have a problem with Rogers being a back-up after his first year? Do you have a problem with Brees after his first year? It takes time. You're already complaining about players after their first year. It took MOulds 2 years before he came to his own. You're over thinking things again.


If Sheppard and Aaron ends up not doing much in their first year, because McKElvin and Davis stepped up ,you'll have a problem with the draft that YOU graded an A.

[justasportsfan]

X-era you called Spiller "MONEY". You loved the pick. Do you have a problem with that pick now because as far as I'm concerned, he hasn't don't much either with Fred in front of him like Kyle is in front of Troup.

[X-Era]

X-era you called Spiller "MONEY". You loved the pick. Do you have a problem with that pick now because as far as I'm concerned, he hasn't don't much either with Fred in front of him like Kyle is in front of Troup.I do like the pick. But, Nix and Co. are hell bent on building their winning team almost solely through the draft. In that model, we need to be getting multiple starters from every draft to get good. And we haven't been doing it so far. It's not the end of the story, were still at the beginning. Many of these guys could become solid or great.

Again, my concern is not with Troup, Spiller, or any individual player. It's how we've done so far with our model for building a winner.

[X-Era]

you're arguing with whats been proven. See the chargers . They've always been competitive because their core was built through the draft.

Are you forgetting about what heppened during the Spikes, Fletcher ,Milloy era? They all outgrew the young ones and then we ended up in a mess with no core players.

Again, do you have a problem with Rogers being a back-up after his first year? Do you have a problem with Brees after his first year? It takes time. You're already complaining about players after their first year. It took MOulds 2 years before he came to his own. You're over thinking things again.


If Sheppard and Aaron ends up not doing much in their first year, because McKElvin and Davis stepped up ,you'll have a problem with the draft that YOU graded an A.No, it really isn't that man. It's that we are missing several pieces and want to simply wait till a guy drops to us in the draft and then pray he will develop.

It's the wait and pray approach versus an aggressive approach.

You mention the Chargers who drafted two QB's in the first 32 picks. Both are pro-bowlers. Yet we have done nothing at that position under this regime. I don't want to change the discussion into a QB discussion, that's just one position. But, it is a position that hasn't been addressed yet and there are several others.

[justasportsfan]

Again, my concern is not with Troup, Spiller, or any individual player. It's how we've done so far with our model for building a winner.

There was no free agency. Nix said what happens in FA'cy will affect the draft but the draft came first this year.

[mysticsoto]

No, it really isn't that man. It's that we are missing several pieces and want to simply wait till a guy drops to us in the draft and then pray he will develop.

It's the wait and pray approach versus an aggressive approach.

You mention the Chargers who drafted two QB's in the first 32 picks. Both are pro-bowlers. Yet we have done nothing at that position under this regime. I don't want to change the discussion into a QB discussion, that's just one position. But, it is a position that hasn't been addressed yet and there are several others.

We had holes everywhere. They can't all be addressed at once. It's too early for you to be complaining. After next year's draft will be a better indication of how they are filling the holes thru the draft.

[justasportsfan]

No, it really isn't that man. It's that we are missing several pieces and want to simply wait till a guy drops to us in the draft and then pray he will develop.

It's the wait and pray approach versus an aggressive approach.

You mention the Chargers who drafted two QB's in the first 32 picks. Both are pro-bowlers. Yet we have done nothing at that position under this regime. I don't want to change the discussion into a QB discussion, that's just one position. But, it is a position that hasn't been addressed yet and there are several others.


thats because it's only his 2nd draft. This team had so many holes to fill and like Nix said , it's a three year project.

What NT would you have gotten instead of Troup?

[Mr. Pink]

Ok, so Nix's theory is to get 3 starters out of every draft class right?

Well hell that would be an improvement on what the 2010 draft class got the Bills.

Seeing it got a grand total of 0 starters.

Spiller will never start at RB. Troup will never start at DT. Carrington will never start at DE. Easley likely won't start at WR even though people here think he's great. Wang likely won't be on the team much longer. Batten won't start. Moats shouldn't start but is a good situational player. Levi Brown won't be in the league much longer and Calloway isn't in the league.

So far the most productive player the Bills have gotten out of the 2010 draft is their 6th round LB.

And people really wonder why this team hasn't made the playoffs in a decade?

It should be obvious.

So X-Era, what happens when you get none?

[justasportsfan]

Again, my concern is not with Troup, Spiller, or any individual player. It's how we've done so far with our model for building a winner.


BTW, your title says otherwise. So tell me, should we build via FA?

[X-Era]

BTW, your title says otherwise. So tell me, should we build via FA? My title is an accurate statement. I mean did we get 3 starters from the draft last year?

We should build through a combination of trades, FA, and the draft. And this org should not be trying to sell to us that we will be anything much to speak of anytime soon with our current rate of "building".

Lets look at it deeper. Let's say it takes two years to develop a rookie to become a starter. That means next year, we will end up with 3 starters from the 2010 draft... so by 2014 we would have 9 starters from our 2010, 2011, and 2012 drafts... 2014? With 9 players that are starters? with 11 starters on either side of the ball? in 2014, we better have more than that. Especially considering the 2010 contracts are all up.

Answer this question for me: Using our current model of building our team, when do you expect us to win a SB? Or even to go to the playoffs?

I don't need everything in one year, but yes, I want more than what we have gotten so far. We still have FA this off-season and I want to see something more significant this year. And, I wouldn't mind a trade for a player either.

[justasportsfan]

My title is an accurate statement. I mean did we get 3 starters from the draft last year?

We should build through a combination of trades, FA, and the draft. ?
there was no FA this year.

Again who would you have taken at NT other than Troup? From FA? Please state players name.


Answer this question for me: Using our current model of building our team, when do you expect us to win a SB? Or even to go to the playoffs?

Too early to tell about a SB but playoffs yes. I'm hoping for the same results like the Chargers and PItts via Whaley.

[justasportsfan]

My title is an accurate statement. I mean did we get 3 starters from the draft last year?

We should build through a combination of trades, FA, and the draft. And this org shouldnot gbe trying to sell to us that we will be anything much to speak of with our current rate of "building".

Answer this question for me: Using our current model of building our team, when do you expect us to win a SB? Or even to go to the playoffs?

If your title is acurate then you're complaining about a player. Even if you're complaining about building through the draft then why were you happy about drafting Spiller who was a player via the draft? Should we have built our running game VIA FA?

there was no CBA this year prior to the draft. this year. We couldn't make trades before the draft.


Tell me what trades were there last year ? Do you think it's a good idea to just dump players from your team that you haven't even assessed? With your way of thinking we would've dumped Kyle Williams because he didn't fit the 3-4 .

[justasportsfan]

BTW, they brought in Davis ,Edwards , Merriman, Pears, Chambers, in their first year. Thats a mix of FA and draft in their first year. What now?

[X-Era]

If your title is acurate then you're complaining about a player. Even if you're complaining about building through the draft then why were you happy about drafting Spiller who was a player via the draft? Should we have built our running game VIA FA?

there was no CBA this year prior to the draft. this year. We couldn't make trades before the draft.


Tell me what trades were there last year ? Do you think it's a good idea to just dump players from your team that you haven't even assessed? With your way of thinking we would've dumped Kyle Williams because he didn't fit the 3-4 .I was fine with our draft last year, not my favorite but I was alright with it. My problem is that we did very little else. And when you don't do anything else, each pick becomes worth way more. In that framework, I have a problem with netting backups with 2nd round and even 3rd round picks. To get anywhere you need many more starters.

[Mr. Pink]

Tell me what trades were there last year ? Do you think it's a good idea to just dump players from your team that you haven't even assessed? With your way of thinking we would've dumped Kyle Williams because he didn't fit the 3-4 .


You need tradeable assets to make trades too. Don't forget that. I don't know where people think we were gonna make these mystical trades considering trades of players don't happen all that often in the NFL anyways.

[X-Era]

BTW, they brought in Davis ,Edwards , Merriman, Riecht, Chambers, in their first year. Thats a mix of FA and draft in their first year. What now?Out of that Edwards is the only real upgrade at this point. I like adding the veteran backups and I hope that Merriman regains form but we can't right now say we made big strides from that off-season.

[justasportsfan]

I was fine with our draft last year, not my favorite but I was alright with it. My problem is that we did very little else. And when you don't do anything else, each pick becomes worth way more. In that framework, I have a problem with netting backups with 2nd round and even 3rd round picks. To get anywhere you need many more starters.


See post above this. What could have they done in their first year? Blow loads of cash and end up with guys like Dockery and the rest of the high priced players during Marvs first year that amounted to nothing?

[X-Era]

You need tradeable assets to make trades too. Don't forget that. I don't know where people think we were gonna make these mystical trades considering trades of players don't happen all that often in the NFL anyways.I'm implying using a draft pick or two. I'll take a proven starter now over a wait-and-pray player on a 4 win team.

[justasportsfan]

Out of that Edwards is the only real upgrade at this point. I like adding the veteran backups and I hope that Merriman regains form but we can't right now say we made big strides from that off-season.


So now it about the players. You said FA + draft philosophy of building a team. Looking at the list they did do that but couldn't do it this year . So what is this thread about again?

[Mr. Pink]

I'm implying using a draft pick or two. I'll take a proven starter now over a wait-and-pray player on a 4 win team.


Most trades in the NFL are players for picks...we did that with Marshawn Lynch.

What other big name player movement was there in the past year?

I honestly don't remember.

[Mr. Pink]

So now it about the players. You said FA + draft philosophy of building a team. Looking at the list they did do that but couldn't do it this year . So what is this thread about again?


Wasting a 2nd round pick on a situational player when the team has about 15 holes.

[justasportsfan]

You need tradeable assets to make trades too. Don't forget that. I don't know where people think we were gonna make these mystical trades considering trades of players don't happen all that often in the NFL anyways.


Nix has barely anything to do with what the untradeable(sp?) talent he inherited.

[justasportsfan]

Wasting a 2nd round pick on a situational player when the team has about 15 holes.

Troup was not drafted to be a situational player. It only turned out that way because Kyle turned into a beast even in the 3-4 when no one thought he'd be a fit.

[Buddo]

No, it really isn't that man. It's that we are missing several pieces and want to simply wait till a guy drops to us in the draft and then pray he will develop.

It's the wait and pray approach versus an aggressive approach.

You mention the Chargers who drafted two QB's in the first 32 picks. Both are pro-bowlers. Yet we have done nothing at that position under this regime. I don't want to change the discussion into a QB discussion, that's just one position. But, it is a position that hasn't been addressed yet and there are several others.

It's not where you draft, it's who you draft.
You can move about all over the place if you want, but if you draft a crap player, he's still a crap player, no matter if you traded up, down, or sideways, to get him.

Letting the draft 'come to them' this year, was not exactly an option that needed the drafting equivalent of rocket scientists. FCOL, they were picking close to the top of each round. They were always going to have good options to choose from for who to draft.

Nix might never, ever, move in the draft, but it won't matter a damn if he picks good players.

Back to Troup. If he develops, I think he will see plenty of playing time.
Williams is a handy player, to say the least, but his forte is disruption, especially on passing downs. Because he gets penetration, he can make plays to stop the run, and does, but it isn't his forte.
Troup should be a guy who you can depend upon to hold up the middle, particularly on run downs.
I've said this elsewhere here, but I think you will see Troup increasingly in on run downs, and Williams in on passing downs ( the obvious ones of either). They will no doubt rotate somewhat, on downs that could go run or pass.
I also believe, assuming progression from Troup, that either Williams or Troup, may well feature for the majority of an individual game, depending on match ups.
Some guys will cope better with the power of Troup, than the sharpness of Williams, and vice versa.

One final note that I think bears recognition. Gailey and Nix don't give a monkeys about what we think. They have their own viewpoint on how players are doing, and if they are measuring up to expectations. Guys like Troup and Carrington, will have expectations placed upon them by the coaching staff. We don't, and likely won't know what those are specifically. What we will know, by and large, is how 'ready' those guys are, by the amount of playing time they get, assuming we don't have injuries. They've both been around the game a long time, and know how long guys should, or shouldn't be taking, to come through. Where they express concern, we need to be worried. Where they don't, we would be wise to take it as though things are still on track ( with individual progression). A good example of this would be the views of Gailey on Maybin and Carrington, respectively. Maybin 'can't make a play, even in practise', was a precis of Gailey's thoughts about him at one point. On Carrington, maybe not too long after, it was that he was doing just fine, and was much more a victim of a numbers game, in respect of not getting an opportunity, than doing anything wrong. He eventually did get opportunities, and showed enough to make Stroud surplus to requirements.

[Mr. Pink]

Troup was not drafted to be a situational player. It only turned out that way because Kyle turned into a beast even in the 3-4 when no one thought he'd be a fit.


However that's what he has now turned out to be.

[justasportsfan]

However that's what he has now turned out to be.

so it wasnt a waste when we drafted him but turned out to be a waste (too early) because Kyle stepped up?

[Mr. Pink]

so it wasnt a waste when we drafted him but turned out to be a waste (too early) because Kyle stepped up?


Irregardless it's a waste when you have a team that hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade and has more holes than filled positions.

[feldspar]

It's WAY too early judging last year's draft already, especially since we've seen so little of those guys yet. Easley and Batten were out the whole year, and Wang missed considerable time with his injury. Developing guys their first year before you throw them in as starters is not that bad of an idea. Who knows where Troup and Carrington will fit in at this point? They'll have their opportunities.

We wanted to evaluate the players we already had, too...Gailey and company had to do that. That's why we started Trent at QB to begin the year, for example. That's what kind of year it was.

Also, just being a starter doesn't mean that you are good anyway. I remember in 2006 when we were starting like 6 rookies at one point.

[X-Era]

It's WAY too early judging last year's draft already, especially since we've seen so little of those guys yet. Easley and Batten were out the whole year, and Wang missed considerable time with his injury. Developing guys their first year before you throw them in as starters is not that bad of an idea. Who knows where Troup and Carrington will fit in at this point? They'll have their opportunities.

We wanted to evaluate the players we already had, too...Gailey and company had to do that. That's why we started Trent at QB to begin the year, for example. That's what kind of year it was.

Also, just being a starter doesn't mean that you are good anyway. I remember in 2006 when we were starting like 6 rookies at one point.You can't judge these guys yet, I agree. But we also can't call these guys studs or even starters yet either.

And for a team that wants to be a playoff squad, how many years will we wait until our "build solely through the draft" concept pays off? I'm all for optimism, I just would like to see an estimate on when we might see the playoffs with our current model for building a winner.

[X-Era]

so it wasnt a waste when we drafted him but turned out to be a waste (too early) because Kyle stepped up?Kyle has been a very good player long before last year IMO. Beyond that we had signed Stroud and Spencer Johnson... Spencer received all those accolades from Russ when he was introduced remember?

And I could throw out FA names or possible trades but then we get into all the crap about how he wouldn't have come here anyway, or we would have had to trade too much... all speculation without the data. I think what is true is that Nix and Co. aren't acquiring upgrades via trade and are barely doing it via FA... and Nix has stated multiple times that he will be building through the draft.

At that point, on a 4 win team, I don't think it's unreasonable to be critical of how we have upgraded the team each year.

[feldspar]

You can't judge these guys yet, I agree. But we also can't call these guys studs or even starters yet either.

And for a team that wants to be a playoff squad, how many years will we wait until our "build solely through the draft" concept pays off? I'm all for optimism, I just would like to see an estimate on when we might see the playoffs with our current model for building a winner.

I'd say a couple of more years, maybe three...and that's if we draft well. I expect us to be a lot better this year than last just because I thought it was necessary to take a step back last year before we took a step forward.

You're not going to get instant gratification. These guys are in it to build a long-term quality team. That takes time. It also usually takes time to develop players. They can often benefit from not starting right away. As they say, you can judge a draft three years down the line.

[X-Era]

I'd say a couple of more years, maybe three...and that's if we draft well. I expect us to be a lot better this year than last just because I thought it was necessary to take a step back last year before we took a step forward.

You're not going to get instant gratification. These guys are in it to build a long-term quality team. That takes time. It also usually takes time to develop players. They can often benefit from not starting right away. As they say, you can judge a draft three years down the line.I hope you are right and I think you possibly could be. I worry that our current method makes it precarious for us to get there that soon.

I mean it probably means:

1) We need to be right on Merriman
2) Dareus has to be the stud we think he will be
3) Carrington has to become a solid starter
4) Spiller needs to become a solid starter in the next few years when Jackson starts to decline
5) Shepp has top prove to be an upgrade at ILB
6) Poz needs to stay and be solid or be replaced by a rookie who performs solid
7) Whitner needs to stay and play solid or Searcy must be as good or better
8) Pears or Hairston needs to become solid
9) We may end up needing to pay Stevie big money or we need a rookie to play at his level
10) We need Fitz to improve or we need to replace him with an upgrade from the draft even if we resign him

That's not even a full list. But, I think it shows were banking a whole lot on a bunch of unproven guys.

[justasportsfan]

Irregardless it's a waste when you have a team that hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade and has more holes than filled positions.

can't fault Nix for not being a psychic.

[justasportsfan]

Kyle has been a very good player long before last year IMO. Beyond that we had signed Stroud and Spencer Johnson... Spencer received all those accolades from Russ when he was introduced remember?

what does Spencer have to do with Nix who you are mainly complaining about?

Don't care how good Kyle was the year before .I doubt YOU thought Kyle was a fit and I doubt even you knew he was going to be as good as he was last year especially in a 3-4 system.


And I could throw out FA names or possible trades but then we get into all the crap about how he wouldn't have come here anyway, or we would have had to trade too much... all speculation without the data. I think what is true is that Nix and Co. aren't acquiring upgrades via trade and are barely doing it via FA... and Nix has stated multiple times that he will be building through the draft. .
exactly, thats why its senseless to talk about building a team via FA's. I've already proven anyways that Nix tried FA's + rookies.


At that point, on a 4 win team, I don't think it's unreasonable to be critical of how we have upgraded the team each year.

it's unreasonable to be critical of a 4 team win in their first year. Did you know BB was 5-11 in his first year with Pats? You probably would have had a problem with BB after a year.


it's too early to be judging anything nix has done especially since it's already been proven that he's doing what you said he should do. Fa's + rookies.

[Ed]

I was fine with our draft last year, not my favorite but I was alright with it. My problem is that we did very little else. And when you don't do anything else, each pick becomes worth way more. In that framework, I have a problem with netting backups with 2nd round and even 3rd round picks. To get anywhere you need many more starters.
So what did you expect the Bills to do in free agency? Maybe you have forgotten, but the free agency pool last year was really weak and thin. You're acting like there were a bunch of star free agents available that wanted to come here, but the Bills just sat on their hands and said, no, we're only going to build through the draft. I thought being able to add a guy like Dwan Edwards was pretty good considering a lot of teams came away with nothing. They also tried to add a starting RT in Green, which didn't work out, but they still tried everything they could to make the team better through free agency also.

You say they didn't do much else, but what else could they have realistically done? When you talk about free agency, you have to keep in mind that there's a limited amount of talent available and 31 other teams looking to improve also. So if Nix says that he wants to build through the draft, it's because the draft is the easiest way to add a bunch of new young players to continue building around. He's still going to add free agents, as he's done in the past, and has said he will do this year, but you can only do so much in free agency. I don't know where you got the idea though, that Nix is not going to try to add free agents.

[justasportsfan]

Bill Polian has been known to build teams via the draft. He did it with the bills and the Colts. While he has been known to plug in a FA (e.g Cornelius Bennett) every now and then, he puts more value into draft picks.

NIx on the other hand has proven to keep looking for players on the waivers even in the middle of the season. Merriman and Pears come to mind. \

[Bangarang]

The life of a Buffalo Bills draft prospect: Either you dominate week 1 or you're garbage. There's little room or patience for a year or two of development.

[Buddo]

The life of a Buffalo Bills draft prospect: Either you dominate week 1 or you're garbage. There's little room or patience for a year or two of development. - even if that's what the plan is all along.

[Mr. Pink]

The life of a Buffalo Bills draft prospect: Either you dominate week 1 or you're garbage. There's little room or patience for a year or two of development.


Because there's such a great track record of development around here right?

[justasportsfan]

Because there's such a great track record of development around here right?


Since the thread pertains to Nix and not Donahoe or Jauron, it's unreasonable to judge what Nix is doing after 1 year or fault Nix for the last decade.

[X-Era]

The life of a Buffalo Bills draft prospect: Either you dominate week 1 or you're garbage. There's little room or patience for a year or two of development.I'm good with being patient if this isn't your only method for building a winner and the team was better than 4 wins.

But with the bust rate from the draft, we could be looking at a long haul until were sniffing the playoffs again.

I hope all these guys become studs or even solid starters, we certainly can use them.

[Mr. Pink]

Since the thread pertains to Nix and not Donahoe or Jauron, it's unreasonable to judge what Nix is doing after 1 year.


Sure it is.

It's reasonable to judge that we wasted a 1st round draft pick on a guy who'll never be any better than Reggie Bush when we already had 2 capable backs on the roster.

It's reasonable to judge that our loser head coach had no idea how to get said first round pick involved in the offense.

So therefore it's reasonable to judge that we have no idea how to draft or how to use the talent we do draft.

[justasportsfan]

Sure it is.

It's reasonable to judge that we wasted a 1st round draft pick on a guy who'll never be any better than Reggie Bush when we already had 2 capable backs on the roster.

It's reasonable to judge that our loser head coach had no idea how to get said first round pick involved in the offense.

So therefore it's reasonable to judge that we have no idea how to draft or how to use the talent we do draft.

I guess thats where we both differ. I don't judge a draft after 1 year otherwise, I'd be calling Moulds ,Brees,etc.etc. a bust after 1 year .