Is Ralph about to **** up our world?

[DraftBoy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6671873


An internal battle is percolating at some of the highest NFL circles in which some NFL owners are resisting the labor deal they've been trying to negotiate with the players, according to multiple sources.

A handful of NFL owners -- at least two of which are from AFC teams -- believe the parameters of the deal being discussed don't adequately address the original issues the league wanted corrected from the 2006 collective bargaining agreement, according to sources.
It is one of the primary reasons team officials are being prepped to stay an extra night in Chicago at Tuesday's owners meetings. It's not to potentially vote on a new collective bargaining agreement, as many suspected; it actually is to try to fend off some of the resistance that is mounting from a handful of NFL owners, according to sources.

Some of this resistance has caused the NFL to adjust its schedule next week, moving up the time of Tuesday's meeting and prepping teams to potentially have to stay into Wednesday. The league is bracing for internal negotiations and lobbying that will impact how soon football could return.


Who do we know that is an AFC owner, and has been vocal about CBA issues in the past and isn't afraid to go against the grain...Hmmm...

Note: Im not saying he's right, or that he's wrong. The title is just a joke.

[BidsJr]

I trust Ralph. He needs to get every millimeter that he can get for the small markets of the NFL.

I'd rather lose a season than a team.

[Dujek]

At the end of the day he was right the last time. The deal was a bad one for all the teams, but a terrible one for small market teams.

[Pinkerton Security]

I do trust Ralph a hell of a lot more than i trust Jerra Jones or Kraft..they could both give 2 craps if the Bills are in existence, and Ralph has kept us financially viable in a small market.

[Ingtar33]

At the end of the day he was right the last time. The deal was a bad one for all the teams, but a terrible one for small market teams.

bingo. the "representative" owners taking part in the closed meetings are all rich owners from huge markets.

I'd rather a good agreement that makes us competitive and viable as time goes forward vs a quick one

[DraftBoy]

bingo. the "representative" owners taking part in the closed meetings are all rich owners from huge markets.

I'd rather a good agreement that makes us competitive and viable as time goes forward vs a quick one

Do you think the last part is even a possible solution?

Imo, Ralph is in a no-win solution, they dont need his vote to get a new CBA (I dont believe, but I could be wrong) and he has little to no backing. I dont know what the answer is here, other than making as much noise as possible.

[Ingtar33]

Do you think the last part is even a possible solution?

Imo, Ralph is in a no-win solution, they dont need his vote to get a new CBA (I dont believe, but I could be wrong) and he has little to no backing. I dont know what the answer is here, other than making as much noise as possible.


no... remember, the 2006 agreement sailed through and that was a miserable deal for any medium to small market team (hell, most of the big market ones didn't like it either eventually)

he needs to be able to get 6 (i think) owners to vote NO to stop it. I'm not sure he can if the deal is remotely fair.

hell i'm not sure if he can get that many if it's just a redo of the previous agreement.

[methos4ever]

no... remember, the 2006 agreement sailed through and that was a miserable deal for any medium to small market team (hell, most of the big market ones didn't like it either eventually)

he needs to be able to get 6 (i think) owners to vote NO to stop it. I'm not sure he can if the deal is remotely fair.

hell i'm not sure if he can get that many if it's just a redo of the previous agreement.
I think they need 24 Ingtar, so 9...

This is just a repeat of 2006. If Ralph has more support this time, that means that Jerruh, Kraft and Johnson can't railroad the deal like last time. If anything, Ralph probably has more support because people remember he was right in 06, assuming it's Ralph.

[Aero II]

The 2 owners could be from "wealthy" AFC teams that do not want to give up more revinue to the other clubs. Ralph was rright before. Some call him old, I say he's experienced.

[Ebenezer]

If they are having a problem with an AFC owner I would look no further than Kraft...

[Ginger Vitis]

Ralph Wilson and Mike Brown.. There is a reason they are nicknamed "30-2"

[Ebenezer]

Ralph Wilson and Mike Brown.. There is a reason they are nicknamed "30-2"

Not this time, I don't think. Look at the part from the first quote that talked about resolving issues from 2006. That speaks of money back to the owners.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

I hope its becaue the want to raise for the floor for the salary cap. That means Buffalo actually has to spend money. What's funny is if we actually spent some money, we would retain more of our good players, sign some free agents and be a better football team. Then, when we are winning, they can charge more for tickets which most would gladly pay for.

[Ickybaluky]

If they are having a problem with an AFC owner I would look no further than Kraft...

The article states it is owners not involved directly in the negotiations. Kraft is part of the block of owners directly involved in the negotiations. The upcoming owner's meeting is being set up to directly answer questions from the owners that are concerned.

I don't think this is as big a deal as it is being made out to be. Of course some owners who are not involved in negotiations are going to express concerns and want to be informed of the process. They felt they rushed into a deal last time and want to avoid doing the same this time. This will work itself out eventually, hopefully by early next month.

FYI... 24 of 32 owners need to vote to approve a new CBA. Thus, it would take 9 "No" votes to kill a deal.

[OpIv37]

I'm always shocked to see how many Bills fans still consider Ralph a good owner.

[Ickybaluky]

I hope its becaue the want to raise for the floor for the salary cap. That means Buffalo actually has to spend money. What's funny is if we actually spent some money, we would retain more of our good players, sign some free agents and be a better football team. Then, when we are winning, they can charge more for tickets which most would gladly pay for.

One of the issues is supposedly making the minimum a cash floor, meaning the money would have to be spent and cap room wouldn't be carried over year-to-year as much. That would make teams spend more.

That said, it wouldn't guarantee a better team. Washington, Oakland and Houston have spent a lot of money in recent years to no avail. It isn't just spending the money, it is finding the right players to spend it on.

[Extremebillsfan247]

Do you think the last part is even a possible solution?

Imo, Ralph is in a no-win solution, they dont need his vote to get a new CBA (I dont believe, but I could be wrong) and he has little to no backing. I dont know what the answer is here, other than making as much noise as possible. He may not be alone here, as your article quote points out, a handful of owners are hesitant about the deal. It's not subject to the opinion of just 1 or 2 owners. If I had to take a shot in the dark about which owners may be against a rush to make a deal, it would be owners with teams that either came into the league via expansion, or had teams on the move. Example: Jacksonville, Tennessee, Houston, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, Carolina, Arizona, and St. Louis. A deal that hurts small markets, could potentially hurt these teams as well. It's a very complex and complicated issue.

[BertSquirtgum]

i just want to watch marcell dareus hurt tom brady. is that too much to ask?

[acehole]

No it isnt....we will have a season...you will see this happen...and there will be much rejoicing ...sayeth the lord.




i just want to watch marcell dareus hurt tom brady. is that too much to ask?

[Pinkerton Security]

I'm always shocked to see how many Bills fans still consider Ralph a good owner.

He may not be the best owner, but he is one of few owners that actually care about the Bills' longterm viability.

[OpIv37]

He may not be the best owner, but he is one of few owners that actually care about the Bills' longterm viability.

Really?

that's why the stadium lease runs out in 2 seasons and he doesn't have a new one yet? That's why he has no plan for who is going to own the team after he dies?

I don't think he cares about long term viability. I think he wants the team to remain viable without him having to change the way he's run it for the last 50 years and adapt to the new economy.

[Pinkerton Security]

Really?

that's why the stadium lease runs out in 2 seasons and he doesn't have a new one yet? That's why he has no plan for who is going to own the team after he dies?

I don't think he cares about long term viability. I think he wants the team to remain viable without him having to change the way he's run it for the last 50 years and adapt to the new economy.
Well, I cant say I know what he thinks, but I DO know that Jerry Jones would rather have a league without the Buffalo Bills and other teams that share his revenue, so again, I trust Ralph more than a lot of owners.

[OpIv37]

Well, I cant say I know what he thinks, but I DO know that Jerry Jones would rather have a league without the Buffalo Bills and other teams that share his revenue, so again, I trust Ralph more than a lot of owners.

I think it would be better for Jerry Jones to have a league with the Buffalo Bills that make enough money on their own so he doesn't have to share his money with them. Ralph, unfortunately, does dumb-ass **** like turn down stadium naming rights because it's "not enough money" then whines about being poor.

[Extremebillsfan247]

I'm always shocked to see how many Bills fans still consider Ralph a good owner.I don't think this matter has anything to do with whether we like or dislike him as an owner. It's kind of beside the point.

[don137]

I'm always shocked to see how many Bills fans still consider Ralph a good owner.
The support for Ralph in this thread is not support for him as an owner but his support for the overall well being of the league. The Krafts, Jones and Snyders are more concerned with their pocketbook and not well being of the league. Those three if given the choice IMO would love to see the NFL mirror baseball where the strongest teams financially outspend all the other teams and are competitive every year where small market teams rarely will be competitive for more than a year or so.

[Extremebillsfan247]

I think it would be better for Jerry Jones to have a league with the Buffalo Bills that make enough money on their own so he doesn't have to share his money with them. Ralph, unfortunately, does dumb-ass **** like turn down stadium naming rights because it's "not enough money" then whines about being poor. The Bills are not the only team Dallas shares revenue with. You knew that right?

[OpIv37]

The Bills are not the only team Dallas shares revenue with. You knew that right?

Your point being?

The other poster specifically mentioned Jerry Jones sharing revenue with the Bills. I realize Jones isn't the only donor and Ralph isn't the only recipient, but the example still makes a valid point.

[trapezeus]

Ralph is an owner that is only in it for himself and his profits.

so sometimes when he goes to bat against the big teams, it feels like he's doing us a favor. but he's not. he's doing himself a favor.

and then when he lectures us why we can't be competitive and pisses us off, he is in it for himself.

a man so against team unity runs a team. perhaps this is why the "team" has sucked. a "me only" guy running a sports team won't work.

this being said, i think watching how angry everyone was about the 2006 agreement and the fact that his cash to cap policy was adopted by several other teams by 2008 suggests that he is on to something.

the anti-revenue sharing guys are going to get a very baseball like sport if they remove the ability of all 32 teams having a shot at the start of the season. and that, in the long term, will reduce their profitability by more than what they pay out to the bottom teams.

but greed doesn't always like facts.

[OpIv37]

Ralph is an owner that is only in it for himself and his profits.

so sometimes when he goes to bat against the big teams, it feels like he's doing us a favor. but he's not. he's doing himself a favor.

and then when he lectures us why we can't be competitive and pisses us off, he is in it for himself.

a man so against team unity runs a team. perhaps this is why the "team" has sucked. a "me only" guy running a sports team won't work.



Or, to say it another way:

Jones and Kraft oppose revenue sharing because that's how they make more money.
Ralph supports revenue sharing because that's how he makes more money.

It's hypocritical to praise Ralph while bashing Jones and Kraft because they're all just acting in their own self-interest. Neither side gives a **** about this large market-small market dichotomy. They just want to make as much money as possible.

[better days]

I'm always shocked to see how many Bills fans still consider Ralph a good owner.

Well, when there have been/are owners such as Modell, Irsey, Bidwell, Brown, Culverhouse, in comparison Ralph looks like a GREAT owner.

[trapezeus]

Or, to say it another way:

Jones and Kraft oppose revenue sharing because that's how they make more money.
Ralph supports revenue sharing because that's how he makes more money.

It's hypocritical to praise Ralph while bashing Jones and Kraft because they're all just acting in their own self-interest. Neither side gives a **** about this large market-small market dichotomy. They just want to make as much money as possible.

but this becomes like the over-fishing scenarios. when everyone solely acts out in their self interests, fisherman will overfish and kill their own profits.

If the owners simply refuse to admit that the bills, the steelers, the packers etc are actually very important to the overall league health, they are crazy.

Storied teams that have a robust fanbase do not simply switch affiliations. i don't really know many browns fans who loved the ravens because their team was yanked away from them. Did texans fans go follow the titans during their lull?

the average fan without die hard bases are actually pretty fickle and only cares about fantasty sports. they aren't into season ticketes. they like their free fantasy sports and the free highlights afterwards. they don't really care (on average) to pay for the direct tv packages.

So if you want to kill the small teams, you will kill the people who pay for season tickets, direct tv, and the jerseys. that will have a long term impact.

[OpIv37]

Well, when there have been/are owners such as Modell, Irsey, Bidwell, Brown, Culverhouse, in comparison Ralph looks like a GREAT owner.

maybe so, but this is Bills fans accepting mediocrity. Being less bad than other bad owners isn't good enough. We should use good owners for benchmarking, not bad ones.

[OpIv37]

but this becomes like the over-fishing scenarios. when everyone solely acts out in their self interests, fisherman will overfish and kill their own profits.

If the owners simply refuse to admit that the bills, the steelers, the packers etc are actually very important to the overall league health, they are crazy.

Storied teams that have a robust fanbase do not simply switch affiliations. i don't really know many browns fans who loved the ravens because their team was yanked away from them. Did texans fans go follow the titans during their lull?

the average fan without die hard bases are actually pretty fickle and only cares about fantasty sports. they aren't into season ticketes. they like their free fantasy sports and the free highlights afterwards. they don't really care (on average) to pay for the direct tv packages.

So if you want to kill the small teams, you will kill the people who pay for season tickets, direct tv, and the jerseys. that will have a long term impact.

Not many Browns fans stuck with the Ravens when they bolted, but a bunch of them who temporarily adopted the Bills until the Browns returned.

And with fantasy football, people who don't have any allegiance whatsoever or live within their favorite team's market are buying Sunday Ticket.

And I really don't think you should be lumping the Bills in with the Packers or Steelers. The Bills certainly have a rabid fan base, but they don't have the success of the Packers or Steelers, which means they don't have the popularity or fan base of those teams either. Losing the Packers or Steelers would hurt the league a lot more than losing the Bills.

[Extremebillsfan247]

Your point being?

The other poster specifically mentioned Jerry Jones sharing revenue with the Bills. I realize Jones isn't the only donor and Ralph isn't the only recipient, but the example still makes a valid point.My point being, Revenue sharing is a league wide thing, and not just a subject matter pitting Jerry Jones against Ralph Wilson as a way to add some type of credibility towards some kind of personal vendetta. lol

[better days]

maybe so, but this is Bills fans accepting mediocrity. Being less bad than other bad owners isn't good enough. We should use good owners for benchmarking, not bad ones.

Agreed, but it is what it is. At least we know the Bills will stay in Buffalo as long as Ralph is the owner. Here is hoping Pegula buys the Bills when Ralph dies.

[trapezeus]

Not many Browns fans stuck with the Ravens when they bolted, but a bunch of them who temporarily adopted the Bills until the Browns returned.

And with fantasy football, people who don't have any allegiance whatsoever or live within their favorite team's market are buying Sunday Ticket.

And I really don't think you should be lumping the Bills in with the Packers or Steelers. The Bills certainly have a rabid fan base, but they don't have the success of the Packers or Steelers, which means they don't have the popularity or fan base of those teams either. Losing the Packers or Steelers would hurt the league a lot more than losing the Bills.

Doesn't matter for my point. the history doesn't matter. if you travel at all, wear a bills shirt. Buffalonians are everywhere and they will give you a wink, a nod, or just start a conversation. this is similar for other small market teams.

Witha winning history or not, we are proud of our team. we are proud that we have bars in NYC and chicago and london that show just our games and we have people who show up.

These fans for the most part will not be like, "hey the bills are gone. let's root for the giants." IT won't happen.

If they move the bills, i swear to god, i will make it my personal mission in life to bring financial ruin to the NFL buy rallying fans on the fence to just stop watching.

[Stewie]

1. No one knows what Ralph really thinks, it's all conjecture.

2. He's earned the benefit of the doubt, based on the last go-round. Whatever his viewwpoint actually happens to be.

[OpIv37]

My point being, Revenue sharing is a league wide thing, and not just a subject matter pitting Jerry Jones against Ralph Wilson as a way to add some type of credibility towards some kind of personal vendetta. lol

Fair enough, except I didn't add it. The guy I quoted did- I just went with it because we were already on that subject.

[OpIv37]

If they move the bills, i swear to god, i will make it my personal mission in life to bring financial ruin to the NFL buy rallying fans on the fence to just stop watching.

if you want to bring financial ruin to the NFL, just let them keep doing what they're doing.

They're catering to the wealthy, corporate fan rather than the average fan. The problem with the wealthy, corporate fan is that they don't have any allegiance-it's just a social event to them. Average families are being priced out of the game, which means kids aren't going to have allegiance to a team because their dad took them to a game when they were young, which has a lot to do with why most of us like the teams that we do.

It'll take probably two generations for it to catch up, maybe more in places like Buffalo where people place more value on sports, but it is a bad strategy that will bite the NFL in the ass.

[X-Era]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6671873




Who do we know that is an AFC owner, and has been vocal about CBA issues in the past and isn't afraid to go against the grain...Hmmm...

Note: Im not saying he's right, or that he's wrong. The title is just a joke.It's simply stating what some of us have been saying. Getting the owners to agree on the CBA is another part of the process. I'm actually happy that it's potentially happening in parallel rather than striking a deal and then having to get it approved by the owners.

Ralph needs to stick to his guns and demand that the rest of the league share more revenue... Team should all spend about the same, it helps parity... and if it screws Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft in the process it's a win win.

[YardRat]

Really?

that's why the stadium lease runs out in 2 seasons and he doesn't have a new one yet?

It would be slightly unusual to re-do a deal with 2 years left (although it wouldn't surprise me if the discussions were opened after the new CBA has been agreed upon) and even if there were prelims already occurring who's to say the county isn't the party holding back?


That's why he has no plan for who is going to own the team after he dies?

You don't know that...at all. Just because nothing has been revealed to the public doesn't mean something isn't in place.


I don't think he cares about long term viability. I think he wants the team to remain viable without him having to change the way he's run it for the last 50 years and adapt to the new economy.

I disagree. I think it's very important to Ralph to keep the team in WNY.

[OpIv37]

It would be slightly unusual to re-do a deal with 2 years left (although it wouldn't surprise me if the discussions were opened after the new CBA has been agreed upon) and even if there were prelims already occurring who's to say the county isn't the party holding back?



You don't know that...at all. Just because nothing has been revealed to the public doesn't mean something isn't in place.



I disagree. I think it's very important to Ralph to keep the team in WNY.

Do you REALLY believe that there's a deal to keep the team in Buffalo and he just hasn't told us yet?

If there is something done, all he has to do is say something. The criticism will all but go away and we can stop hearing Buffalo's name come up every time someone talks about a team in LA or Toronto or San Antonio or some other city that doesn't have one yet.

It would end a lot of speculation and headache and make him an instant hero.

And I think the ONLY reason Ralph wants to keep the team in WNY is his legacy. The team has been a dismal failure for roughly 80% of its existence and has NEVER won the ultimate prize. If the team leaves Buffalo, he'll be hated by the entire city for generations.

He's not from Buffalo. He doesn't live in Buffalo. And originally, he wanted to put a team in Miami but had to settle for Buffalo. And if he gave a damn about the community, then he wouldn't have sold off games to Toronto and he'd stop being such a cheapskate and at least give us a winning product on the field.

Ralph brought a team to Buffalo and for that he deserves credit. But he hasn't done jack **** since then. I really wish I could find a way to do one great thing then rest on its laurels for half a ****ing century.

**** Ralph. He is far and away the biggest reason for the lack of success this team has had, and yet people here still defend him.

Sometimes I think this website is some kind of bizarro world. Everyone is unhappy with how the team performs, but when it comes down to an individual owner, player, or coach, everyone stands by him. Huh? It's completely illogical.

[YardRat]

Do you REALLY believe that there's a deal to keep the team in Buffalo and he just hasn't told us yet?

If there is something done, all he has to do is say something. The criticism will all but go away and we can stop hearing Buffalo's name come up every time someone talks about a team in LA or Toronto or San Antonio or some other city that doesn't have one yet.

It would end a lot of speculation and headache and make him an instant hero.

Don't know if he does...That doesn't = knowing that he doesn't. If he does, I'm sure it will be revealed when he feels it is appropriate. Damn him all you want, but a couple of things you can't take away from Ralph...he's a helluva businessman, and he understands the NFL and what it takes to make and keep the league successful.


And I think the ONLY reason Ralph wants to keep the team in WNY is his legacy. The team has been a dismal failure for roughly 80% of its existence and has NEVER won the ultimate prize. If the team leaves Buffalo, he'll be hated by the entire city for generations.

He's not from Buffalo. He doesn't live in Buffalo. And originally, he wanted to put a team in Miami but had to settle for Buffalo. And if he gave a damn about the community, then he wouldn't have sold off games to Toronto and he'd stop being such a cheapskate and at least give us a winning product on the field.

Ralph brought a team to Buffalo and for that he deserves credit. But he hasn't done jack **** since then. I really wish I could find a way to do one great thing then rest on its laurels for half a ****ing century.

**** Ralph. He is far and away the biggest reason for the lack of success this team has had, and yet people here still defend him.

Sometimes I think this website is some kind of bizarro world. Everyone is unhappy with how the team performs, but when it comes down to an individual owner, player, or coach, everyone stands by him. Huh? It's completely illogical.

If Ralph didn't care about keeping the team in Buffalo, it would've been gone long ago.

[OpIv37]

Ralph's not a hell of a businessman. he WAS a hell of a businessman until maybe 20 years ago. Now, he's fallen behind the times and he fights tooth and nail against those who haven't. He never adjusted after FA came along. If he was such a great businessman, then he wouldn't have to go to the NFL crying poverty every time the CBA is up for renewal.

And I didn't say he didn't care about keeping the team in Buffalo- I said he only cares about it because of his legacy. It has nothing to do with the team or the city- it has to do with how people view him.

And believe me- if his family will make more money by moving the team after he dies, then the team will get moved. If they were struggling I'd commend him for that, but they're rich, and they're going to get richer at the expense of our football team.

And you're defending this guy. WTF?

[YardRat]

Ralph's not a hell of a businessman. he WAS a hell of a businessman until maybe 20 years ago. Now, he's fallen behind the times and he fights tooth and nail against those who haven't. He never adjusted after FA came along. If he was such a great businessman, then he wouldn't have to go to the NFL crying poverty every time the CBA is up for renewal.

Understanding and attempting to perpetuate the financial foundation that made the NFL the greatest professional sports league does not = crying poverty. Ralph knows what the impetus was for the growth of the league, and he's just trying to keep greedy bastards like Jones and Kraft from ruining it.


And I didn't say he didn't care about keeping the team in Buffalo- I said he only cares about it because of his legacy. It has nothing to do with the team or the city- it has to do with how people view him.


I think this comment is full of ****. If he didn't care about the connection between the team and the area. why would he give a damn what the people think about him, especially after he's gone? To my knowledge, Wilson has never made a comment, even a slight slip of the tongue, to indicate that his legacy is the only thing important to him.


And believe me- if his family will make more money by moving the team after he dies, then the team will get moved. If they were struggling I'd commend him for that, but they're rich, and they're going to get richer at the expense of our football team.


Another assumption.



And you're defending this guy. WTF?

You're damn right I am. My scorn is reserved for guys like Paul Snyder and John Y. Brown. Those ****ers actually earned it.

[better days]

Do you REALLY believe that there's a deal to keep the team in Buffalo and he just hasn't told us yet?

If there is something done, all he has to do is say something. The criticism will all but go away and we can stop hearing Buffalo's name come up every time someone talks about a team in LA or Toronto or San Antonio or some other city that doesn't have one yet.

It would end a lot of speculation and headache and make him an instant hero.

And I think the ONLY reason Ralph wants to keep the team in WNY is his legacy. The team has been a dismal failure for roughly 80% of its existence and has NEVER won the ultimate prize. If the team leaves Buffalo, he'll be hated by the entire city for generations.

He's not from Buffalo. He doesn't live in Buffalo. And originally, he wanted to put a team in Miami but had to settle for Buffalo. And if he gave a damn about the community, then he wouldn't have sold off games to Toronto and he'd stop being such a cheapskate and at least give us a winning product on the field.

Ralph brought a team to Buffalo and for that he deserves credit. But he hasn't done jack **** since then. I really wish I could find a way to do one great thing then rest on its laurels for half a ****ing century.

**** Ralph. He is far and away the biggest reason for the lack of success this team has had, and yet people here still defend him.

Sometimes I think this website is some kind of bizarro world. Everyone is unhappy with how the team performs, but when it comes down to an individual owner, player, or coach, everyone stands by him. Huh? It's completely illogical.

Well, yeah the Bills did win the ultimate prize long ago, they were AFL Champions, the ultimate prize they could win at that time.

[OpIv37]

Understanding and attempting to perpetuate the financial foundation that made the NFL the greatest professional sports league does not = crying poverty. Ralph knows what the impetus was for the growth of the league, and he's just trying to keep greedy bastards like Jones and Kraft from ruining it.



I think this comment is full of ****. If he didn't care about the connection between the team and the area. why would he give a damn what the people think about him, especially after he's gone? To my knowledge, Wilson has never made a comment, even a slight slip of the tongue, to indicate that his legacy is the only thing important to him.



Another assumption.




You're damn right I am. My scorn is reserved for guys like Paul Snyder and John Y. Brown. Those ****ers actually earned it.

lmao- Ralph isn't "Understanding and attempting to perpetuate the financial foundation that made the NFL the greatest professional sports league." He's living in the past and trying to make money the way it was made 20 or 30 years ago instead of the way it is now. If you believe what you said, then you have bought into their public relations propaganda.

You can say my comment is full of ****, but what has Ralph done to prove he cares about anything other than his legacy and his bottom line? If he gave a damn, he'd have a succession plan in place and he'd spend what it takes to put a winner on the field.

The difference between a guy like Ralph and a guy like, say, Pegula, is that guys like Pegula make their money away from sports, and are in sports because they love it and want to win. Ralph attempts to use sports to make money, and does a poor job of it, and that's what's holding this team back.

You honestly have no scorn for the guy who is responsible for a decade of losing and ~40 years of mediocrity over a 50 year period for your favorite football team? If that's true, you've bought into the propaganda even more than I thought.

[OpIv37]

Well, yeah the Bills did win the ultimate prize long ago, they were AFL Champions, the ultimate prize they could win at that time.

Once again, accepting mediocrity. Why let Ralph off the hook for being 0 for 45 on Super Bowls? Inexcusable.

[X-Era]

I'm love/hate with Ralph. I can't stand the cash to crap BS that were stuck dealing with but I'm also glad to have a team to root for.

Personally, I want Ralph and others to insist that they share revenues to the point that all teams can spend up to the cap.

[better days]

Once again, accepting mediocrity. Why let Ralph off the hook for being 0 for 45 on Super Bowls? Inexcusable.

Not accepting medioctity, just correcting an incorrect statement you made.

[OpIv37]

Not accepting medioctity, just correcting an incorrect statement you made.

An AFL championship is not the ultimate prize. Granted, the SB wasn't available at the time, but that's why I said 0 for 45 and not 2 for 50.

[DraftBoy]

In a slight turn...

On local radio here in Atlanta, Chris Mortensen suggested that it could be that Betterman (outside counsel hired by Goodell years ago, and architect of the lockout) is telling some of these owners to hold out and wait for the players to break.

Betterman crafted this lockout with a plan of how it should go and when things should happen. He remains convinced that the players will break and could be making that case to some of the owners who are now holding up the process.

I do want to be clear, Mortensen wasn't reporting this, he was only speculating.

[jcdavey]

I trust Ralph. He needs to get every millimeter that he can get for the small markets of the NFL.

I'd rather lose a season than a team.
i been saying this all lockout

just get it fixed so we're not seeing this again in 5 years

if a season has to be sacrificed....so be it

[YardRat]

lmao- Ralph isn't "Understanding and attempting to perpetuate the financial foundation that made the NFL the greatest professional sports league." He's living in the past and trying to make money the way it was made 20 or 30 years ago instead of the way it is now. If you believe what you said, then you have bought into their public relations propaganda.

If you actually believe what you posted, then you must not understand or appreciate the impact revenue sharing has had on the league, and you have bought into the public propaganda from the Jones/Kraft side. You ***** about 'crying poverty' on one end, yet support Jones' attempt to finance his toys on the backs of the smaller market teams?


You can say my comment is full of ****, but what has Ralph done to prove he cares about anything other than his legacy and his bottom line? If he gave a damn, he'd have a succession plan in place and he'd spend what it takes to put a winner on the field.
A-The team is here.
B-The team may have spent money unwisely (see Kelsay, etc) but they have spent money. Don't twist the facts to suit your argument.
C-Once again, you are clueless regarding any succession plan, as are we all.


The difference between a guy like Ralph and a guy like, say, Pegula, is that guys like Pegula make their money away from sports, and are in sports because they love it and want to win. Ralph attempts to use sports to make money, and does a poor job of it, and that's what's holding this team back.
Apparently you are not aware of how the Wilson family originally made their money. Really? You're going to hold up an example of an owner that has been in the position for less than 6 months as a comparison to somebody who helped found an entire league and been involved for 50+years?


You honestly have no scorn for the guy who is responsible for a decade of losing and ~40 years of mediocrity over a 50 year period for your favorite football team? If that's true, you've bought into the propaganda even more than I thought.
No scorn. He's made his mistakes over the years, but the bottom line on the balance sheet of judgment is in his favor IMO.

[better days]

An AFL championship is not the ultimate prize. Granted, the SB wasn't available at the time, but that's why I said 0 for 45 and not 2 for 50.

You are WRONG. The Bills were in the AFL. The AFL Championship was the ultimate prize for all teams in that league so yeah, the AFL Championship was the ultimate prize they could obtain.

[Night Train]

At the end of the day he was right the last time. The deal was a bad one for all the teams, but a terrible one for small market teams.

Some owners clearly want football and are willing to meet the players' price. But others -- remembering 2006, when a CBA that seemingly favored the players was thought to have been rushed through -- want to make sure they don't make the same mistake.

I've been critical of Ralph thru the years but he's dead right, if the owners (larger markets) are again trying to rush things through YET AGAIN, without learning their lesson from 5 years ago.

We don't know the terms, so let it be worked on properly before agreeing to a bad deal for Buffalo and other small market teams. **** the deadline.

[feldspar]

I'm always shocked to see how many Bills fans still consider Ralph a good owner.

I'd call him a good businessman, though.

[acehole]

Well he was right voting no on old deal op.

So piss off....

Na just messing I am actually scared of you.
:king:


Ralph's not a hell of a businessman. he WAS a hell of a businessman until maybe 20 years ago. Now, he's fallen behind the times and he fights tooth and nail against those who haven't. He never adjusted after FA came along. If he was such a great businessman, then he wouldn't have to go to the NFL crying poverty every time the CBA is up for renewal.

And I didn't say he didn't care about keeping the team in Buffalo- I said he only cares about it because of his legacy. It has nothing to do with the team or the city- it has to do with how people view him.

And believe me- if his family will make more money by moving the team after he dies, then the team will get moved. If they were struggling I'd commend him for that, but they're rich, and they're going to get richer at the expense of our football team.

And you're defending this guy. WTF?

[theanswer74]

To me, being a fan during the late 80's, 90's, and 00's, saying Ralph isn't a good owner is like saying Jim Kelly isn't a good QB.

Yes the game has passed Ralph by somewhat due to old age, the NFL is a different animal now, but every Bills fans needs to show respect to Ralph Wilson Jr.

There are ways to be critical of some of the mistakes he has made and also show respect to him.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm love/hate with Ralph. I can't stand the cash to crap BS that were stuck dealing with but I'm also glad to have a team to root for.

Personally, I want Ralph and others to insist that they share revenues to the point that all teams can spend up to the cap.


All teams can spend up to the cap. The television contracts dictate the salary cap. Some teams have owners with deeper pockets so they can give larger bonuses.

So how do you even that out exactly so owners like Wilson who cry about being poor all the time and then rich owners like Jerry Jones can only spend to the same dollar amount on bonus?

Wilson chooses to go "cash to cap" so he can pocket a few more dollars.

[X-Era]

Some owners clearly want football and are willing to meet the players' price. But others -- remembering 2006, when a CBA that seemingly favored the players was thought to have been rushed through -- want to make sure they don't make the same mistake.

I've been critical of Ralph thru the years but he's dead right, if the owners (larger markets) are again trying to rush things through YET AGAIN, without learning their lesson from 5 years ago.

We don't know the terms, so let it be worked on properly before agreeing to a bad deal for Buffalo and other small market teams. **** the deadline.Exactly. Ralph should insist on revenue sharing such that every team can spend up to the cap.

[YardRat]

All teams can spend up to the cap. The television contracts dictate the salary cap. Some teams have owners with deeper pockets so they can give larger bonuses.

So how do you even that out exactly so owners like Wilson who cry about being poor all the time and then rich owners like Jerry Jones can only spend to the same dollar amount on bonus?

Wilson chooses to go "cash to cap" so he can pocket a few more dollars.

The Bills are still in Buffalo.

Modell sold out to Baltimore, and your Lombardi Trophy resides at 1101 Russell Street.

Maybe if Art had slightly more business acumen and loyalty than a ******ed chimp that wouldn't be the case.

We win.

[Mr. Pink]

The Bills are still in Buffalo.

Modell sold out to Baltimore, and your Lombardi Trophy resides at 1101 Russell Street.

Maybe if Art had slightly more business acumen and loyalty than a ******ed chimp that wouldn't be the case.

We win.


What do you win exactly?

[OpIv37]

No scorn. He's made his mistakes over the years, but the bottom line on the balance sheet of judgment is in his favor IMO.

0 for 45 on Super Bowls. 11 straight losing seasons. ~40 bad seasons out of 50 total.

How exactly does that result in a judgment in his favor?

You're doing exactly what I said- he helped found the league and brought the team to Buffalo- you're giving him credit for that and ignoring the fact that he hasn't done jack **** since then.

If you give a judgment in Ralph's favor, then you deserve all the losing.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

0 for 45 on Super Bowls. 11 straight losing seasons. ~40 bad seasons out of 50 total.


That is horrendous. Sugar coat it any way you want. Depressing. I'm a Bills fan, not a Buffalo Bills fan as I have never lived in the city or have any relationship to it. I became a Bills fan after the first game I ever watched. I go to a game every year or 2 and watch every game on TV. So Ralph's bringing the team to Buffalo holds no merit in my eyes. I judge him for On The Field RESULTS. Just like an NFL Player, This is a what have you done for me lately league. And honestly he hasn't done sheeet in decades

[DraftBoy]

0 for 45 on Super Bowls. 11 straight losing seasons. ~40 bad seasons out of 50 total.

How exactly does that result in a judgment in his favor?

You're doing exactly what I said- he helped found the league and brought the team to Buffalo- you're giving him credit for that and ignoring the fact that he hasn't done jack **** since then.

If you give a judgment in Ralph's favor, then you deserve all the losing.

That's a ridiculously misleading stat and you know it.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

That's a ridiculously misleading stat and you know it.

Sure we got to 4. But it isn't misleading at all. We have 0 Super Bowls in 45 Years

[OpIv37]

That's a ridiculously misleading stat and you know it.

How is it misleading?

The team has NEVER won a Super Bowl. These are the only teams that existed at Super Bowl 1 and have never won:

Arizona Cardinals (formerly St. Louis Cardinals)

Cleveland Browns

Philadelphia Eagles

Atlanta Falcons

Detroit Lions

Minnesota Vikings

Buffalo Bills

Tennessee Titans (formerly Houston Oilers)

San Diego Chargers

All of these teams except Detroit have been better than Buffalo over the last decade, and Cleveland gets a partial pass for going 3 years with no team then having to start over as an expansion franchise. This is piss-poor company and you know it. The only quality franchise on that list is the Eagles.

[DraftBoy]

How is it misleading?

The team has NEVER won a Super Bowl. These are the only teams that existed at Super Bowl 1 and have never won:

Arizona Cardinals (formerly St. Louis Cardinals)

Cleveland Browns

Philadelphia Eagles

Atlanta Falcons

Detroit Lions

Minnesota Vikings

Buffalo Bills

Tennessee Titans (formerly Houston Oilers)

San Diego Chargers

All of these teams except Detroit have been better than Buffalo over the last decade, and Cleveland gets a partial pass for going 3 years with no team then having to start over as an expansion franchise. This is piss-poor company and you know it. The only quality franchise on that list is the Eagles.

We are not 0-45 in super bowls though which is the stat you posted. Like I said its misleading. You know it is, which is why your not defending it, but rather the general point which nobody disagreed with.

[DraftBoy]

Sure we got to 4. But it isn't misleading at all. We have 0 Super Bowls in 45 Years

Which is not the conclusion any outsider would reach when reading that stat.

[methos4ever]

If the Bills (Ralph in particular) are so bad and inferior to the rest of the NFL over lo these 45 years, why continue to follow then?

The Steelers, bastion of things done right didn't win their first title until their 41st year, so why not give the Bills a 5 year window and after that dump em?

[OpIv37]

We are not 0-45 in super bowls though which is the stat you posted. Like I said its misleading. You know it is, which is why your not defending it, but rather the general point which nobody disagreed with.

It's semantics. I wrote it assuming the audience reading on this website would know that the Bills haven't gone to and lost 45 SB's.

For a general audience who knows nothing about football, it may be misleading. For anyone who knows enough about football to be reading a Buffalo Bills website, they are going to understand what I meant.

[DraftBoy]

It's semantics. I wrote it assuming the audience reading on this website would know that the Bills haven't gone to and lost 45 SB's.

For a general audience who knows nothing about football, it may be misleading. For anyone who knows enough about football to be reading a Buffalo Bills website, they are going to understand what I meant.

Really? You sure you want to make that assumption?

[trapezeus]

cleveland kind of won through baltimore, no?

OP, i don't know what Ralph could have done differently at FA.

In the end, i think Ralph is an old school business guy. He gets credit for being the kind of business guy who sticks with his team and tries to fix it. modern day business men run to whatever profit at whatever cost.

OP, you can't have it both ways with ralph being able to stay in buffalo and be a profiteer.

his cash to cap was actually adopted by like 1/3 of the teams by 2008.

His premise is right. the 5 largest teams have a lot more to gain from their fanbase. they are wealthier and can afford the boxes and PSL's etc. Ralph is going to bat for the smaller team in some ways. in truth, he's going to bat for his bottom line. and he isn't going to just ditch his investment because it's profitable.

The 2006 CBA allowed salaries to escalate too quickly for all teams to partake in it. and the only way every team could keep up with those figures was if they shared thes uite revenues too.

the bills and alot of other teams don't have much wiggle room with $120MM in expenditures a year. and the upside of winning it all isn't going to bring in that much more.

for teams making multiples of the cap, they don't care. for teams making just around the cap, it makes no sense.

and like i said before, ralph is covered with warts. he is only in this for himself. sometimes it appears that he supports us and sometimes it seems like he raises his finger to us. it's cause we aren't perfectly aligned interests.

[OpIv37]

and like i said before, ralph is covered with warts. he is only in this for himself. sometimes it appears that he supports us and sometimes it seems like he raises his finger to us. it's cause we aren't perfectly aligned interests.

you've come to a very different conclusion, but this is the crux of my premise as well. Too many people around here have this mindset that "well, Ralph could have made money by moving the team but he didn't, so he must care about the city/people."

This is faulty logic. Ralph does have a modicum of class and he isn't going to sell us out just to make a quick buck, but at the same time, he has this bizarre need to make his already-wealthy family even wealthier, and he will have no problem selling us out if/when it comes to that.

[trapezeus]

or he could be like, "i did all this, so i want it to be done my way until i'm gone. you all can do with it as you like, i won't stop you one way or the other."

typically families with big inheritances typically go for the big score because there are a lot of people who are in the will. giving a team worth $700MM to 1 lady who may or may not take care of people you took care of is tough. so you have to monetize the asset and then distribute all the money to all the parties.

[Mr. Pink]

Really? You sure you want to make that assumption?

I'd hope everyone reading this website would know that the Bills haven't been to 45 superbowls. Actually any football fan should realize this.

[better days]

or he could be like, "i did all this, so i want it to be done my way until i'm gone. you all can do with it as you like, i won't stop you one way or the other."

typically families with big inheritances typically go for the big score because there are a lot of people who are in the will. giving a team worth $700MM to 1 lady who may or may not take care of people you took care of is tough. so you have to monetize the asset and then distribute all the money to all the parties.

Ralph did not start the AFL with a few others to make money. He did so because he loved the game of football. He & the others called themselves "the foolish club" because they all knew they would lose money & had no idea if they would ever even break even let alone make money.

Over the years Ralph has been against teams moving from one City to another & voted that way.

Ralph is now in the Hall of Fame as a founder of the AFL & as the only owner of the Bills in his lifetime. He has refused to sell naming rights to the Stadium, prefering to leave his name attached to it. I believe Ralph does not want to see his legacy tarnished by the Bills moving from Buffalo after his death & has a plan in place to keep them here.

[OpIv37]

Ralph did not start the AFL with a few others to make money. He did so because he loved the game of football. He & the others called themselves "the foolish club" because they all knew they would lose money & had no idea if they would ever even break even let alone make money.

Over the years Ralph has been against teams moving from one City to another & voted that way.

Ralph is now in the Hall of Fame as a founder of the AFL & as the only owner of the Bills in his lifetime. He has refused to sell naming rights to the Stadium, prefering to leave his name attached to it. I believe Ralph does not want to see his legacy tarnished by the Bills moving from Buffalo after his death & has a plan in place to keep them here.

This last part is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that such a plan exists. People believe it because they want to believe it, but there is no substance to it.

[trapezeus]

This last part is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that such a plan exists. People believe it because they want to believe it, but there is no substance to it.

there is substance to it.

when he turned 70, 23 years ago, people had to be on his case about by then. you just can't run a major company worth money and not have a succession plan in place.

if it turns out that he doesn't have a plan or wills the team to someone, the guy was a business idiot.

there is something that will happen. we'll find out, perhaps in another 20 year.s

perhaps ralph is the devil. to get pro football in buffalo we had to sell our own hometown to this guy who never dies, never gives us what we wants, and just teases us enough to keep us in this awful circular reference. if ever there was a time to believe in satan, this would be it.

[Mr. Pink]

there is substance to it.

when he turned 70, 23 years ago, people had to be on his case about by then. you just can't run a major company worth money and not have a succession plan in place.

if it turns out that he doesn't have a plan or wills the team to someone, the guy was a business idiot.

there is something that will happen. we'll find out, perhaps in another 20 year.s

perhaps ralph is the devil. to get pro football in buffalo we had to sell our own hometown to this guy who never dies, never gives us what we wants, and just teases us enough to keep us in this awful circular reference. if ever there was a time to believe in satan, this would be it.

If he's had a succession plan for 20 years, 10 years, 5 years, 1 year...something would have leaked out by now to the public.

[DraftBoy]

I'd hope everyone reading this website would know that the Bills haven't been to 45 superbowls. Actually any football fan should realize this.

You are braver than I.

[OpIv37]

there is substance to it.

when he turned 70, 23 years ago, people had to be on his case about by then. you just can't run a major company worth money and not have a succession plan in place.

if it turns out that he doesn't have a plan or wills the team to someone, the guy was a business idiot.

there is something that will happen. we'll find out, perhaps in another 20 year.s

perhaps ralph is the devil. to get pro football in buffalo we had to sell our own hometown to this guy who never dies, never gives us what we wants, and just teases us enough to keep us in this awful circular reference. if ever there was a time to believe in satan, this would be it.

That's not substance.

That's speculation.

Ralph has said he is leaving the team to his family.

Say what you will about Golisano, but he rescued the team, kept us mired in mediocrity, then got the hell out when he realized he wasn't going to do what needs to be done. His ownership was frustrating but at least he decided to get out of the way sooner rather than later.

Ralph seems content with the status quo. He won't do what it takes to win and he won't get the hell out of the way and give a shot to someone who will do what it takes, even though he would make literally hundreds of millions of dollars in profit by doing so. Either that, or there really isn't anyone with the money to buy the team who would keep it in Buffalo, in which case we're in more trouble than I thought.

But once Ralph is gone, one of two things will happen: a) someone will buy the team and move them to Toronto, LA or some other larger market, or b) an owner from Buffalo will take over and actually win, or at least be competitive more often than not.

And maybe then, people will see Ralph for the incompetent coot that he really is.

[better days]

That's not substance.

That's speculation.

Ralph has said he is leaving the team to his family.

Say what you will about Golisano, but he rescued the team, kept us mired in mediocrity, then got the hell out when he realized he wasn't going to do what needs to be done. His ownership was frustrating but at least he decided to get out of the way sooner rather than later.

Ralph seems content with the status quo. He won't do what it takes to win and he won't get the hell out of the way and give a shot to someone who will do what it takes, even though he would make literally hundreds of millions of dollars in profit by doing so. Either that, or there really isn't anyone with the money to buy the team who would keep it in Buffalo, in which case we're in more trouble than I thought.

But once Ralph is gone, one of two things will happen: a) someone will buy the team and move them to Toronto, LA or some other larger market, or b) an owner from Buffalo will take over and actually win, or at least be competitive more often than not.

And maybe then, people will see Ralph for the incompetent coot that he really is.

Well, Ralph has outlived Rodgers, the guy from Toronto that wanted to move the Bills there. Maybe the Bills will start to win again while Ralph is still alive & shut up the negative people around here.

[OpIv37]

Well, Ralph has outlived Rodgers, the guy from Toronto that wanted to move the Bills there. Maybe the Bills will start to win again while Ralph is still alive & shut up the negative people around here.

maybe, but not likely. The team's performance under Ralph has been dismal, save a few years in the mid 60's and most of the 90's.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, Ralph has outlived Rodgers, the guy from Toronto that wanted to move the Bills there. Maybe the Bills will start to win again while Ralph is still alive & shut up the negative people around here.

Why is realism always mistaken for negativity around here?

[better days]

Why is realism always mistaken for negativity around here?

As the Bills start to win there will still be people that are negative about it, calling it an "ugly win against a bad team" or some such thing. I have no doubt you will be one of them.

[Mr. Pink]

As the Bills start to win there will still be people that are negative about it, calling it an "ugly win against a bad team" or some such thing. I have no doubt you will be one of them.

A win is a win is a win. Regardless of how it comes. It's not always important to win some games though, like 2 years ago, week 17 against the Colts.

But if you string together wins and you're good enough to be a playoff team it doesn't matter if you win 3-2 or 2-0 or 56-0.

[DraftBoy]

That's not substance.

That's speculation.

Ralph has said he is leaving the team to his family.

Say what you will about Golisano, but he rescued the team, kept us mired in mediocrity, then got the hell out when he realized he wasn't going to do what needs to be done. His ownership was frustrating but at least he decided to get out of the way sooner rather than later.

Ralph seems content with the status quo. He won't do what it takes to win and he won't get the hell out of the way and give a shot to someone who will do what it takes, even though he would make literally hundreds of millions of dollars in profit by doing so. Either that, or there really isn't anyone with the money to buy the team who would keep it in Buffalo, in which case we're in more trouble than I thought.

But once Ralph is gone, one of two things will happen: a) someone will buy the team and move them to Toronto, LA or some other larger market, or b) an owner from Buffalo will take over and actually win, or at least be competitive more often than not.

And maybe then, people will see Ralph for the incompetent coot that he really is.


You are forgetting one very big fact in this matter, the sale has to be approved by the Commissioners office and by a majority of the current owners. The commish has already stated very clearly what he desire is. So to assume the team automatically goes to the highest bidder or largest market is speculation as well.

[OpIv37]

You are forgetting one very big fact in this matter, the sale has to be approved by the Commissioners office and by a majority of the current owners. The commish has already stated very clearly what he desire is. So to assume the team automatically goes to the highest bidder or largest market is speculation as well.

LA trumps Buffalo in terms of population, money and TV market size.

When the Commish said he wanted to keep a team in Buffalo, there was already a team in Buffalo and no team imminently moving to LA. There was no point in pissing off Buffalo, especially since he has ties to the area.

But, if an ownership group really wants to buy the Bills and move to LA, the dollar will be king and Goodell will no longer give a **** about pissing off Buffalo.

[DraftBoy]

LA trumps Buffalo in terms of population, money and TV market size.

When the Commish said he wanted to keep a team in Buffalo, there was already a team in Buffalo and no team imminently moving to LA. There was no point in pissing off Buffalo, especially since he has ties to the area.

But, if an ownership group really wants to buy the Bills and move to LA, the dollar will be king and Goodell will no longer give a **** about pissing off Buffalo.

The first two parts are fact, however the last part is speculation.

[OpIv37]

The first two parts are fact, however the last part is speculation.

whatever helps you sleep at night...

[DraftBoy]

whatever helps you sleep at night...
I dont need help sleeping, I have booze for that.

[OpIv37]

I dont need help sleeping, I have booze for that.

I find Benadryl works great as well.

Just don't mix the two.

[DraftBoy]

I find Benadryl works great as well.

Just don't mix the two.

Nothing wrong with mixing the two...as long as you don't mind waking up the day after tomorrow.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

We need to find Pedro Martinez to slam Ralph on his head.

[OpIv37]

As the Bills start to win there will still be people that are negative about it, calling it an "ugly win against a bad team" or some such thing. I have no doubt you will be one of them.

a) Why are you bringing this up in June, when there haven't been any games- wins or losses- in six months?

b) Remember 2008 when we started 5-2 and finished 1-8? Some people don't understand that flaws can show themselves in wins, and while we might have survived that game with a win, it means there won't be too many more. It wasn't negativity, it was realism, as the final results of the season showed.

[better days]

a) Why are you bringing this up in June, when there haven't been any games- wins or losses- in six months?

b) Remember 2008 when we started 5-2 and finished 1-8? Some people don't understand that flaws can show themselves in wins, and while we might have survived that game with a win, it means there won't be too many more. It wasn't negativity, it was realism, as the final results of the season showed.

I brought it up because of all the negative people in this world, from Jerry Sullivan to all the others that always want to piss & moan. I am sick of it myself.

Why did Jerry Sullivan bring up the Bills moving when Ralph dies? Ralph is not on his death bed as far as we know & he could live well past 100 years old.

I am sick of Sullivan & others telling us that we should all be worried about the Bills moving. What is the point of worrying?

If the time comes that someone tries to move the Bills, I will do what I did when I got cancer. I won't worry, I will fight it. I'm sure the majority of Bills fans will join me in that fight. If someone tries to move the Bills they are in for a fight & if they win & the Bills move, the NFL will lose a great many Bills fans scattered all accross the Country.

If Buffalo loses the Bills, the NFL will also lose & become a lesser league than it is today.

The 2008 Bills were a bad team. That was real. The wins were wins that was also real.

That is my point. Some people are just so negitive they can not enjoy a win, nor do they want others to enjoy it, that is real.

There will be people on this board & other Bills boards as well I'm sure that will be negitive about wins unless & until the Bills win the Super Bowl. Even then, there will probably be a few negative people that have something to complain about.

[OpIv37]

There will be people on this board & other Bills boards as well I'm sure that will be negitive about wins unless & until the Bills win the Super Bowl. Even then, there will probably be a few negative people that have something to complain about.

this is nothing but assumption and speculation, as the Bills haven't anywhere close to winning the SB since this board has been in existence. You can't presume to know how people will act in a situation that has never occurred.

And I don't understand this "I'm so sick of people being negative" mentality.

We have a football team that has sucked for a decade. We were the 3rd worst team in the league last year. We haven't been to the playoffs in 11 years and haven't won a playoff game in about 13. During that span, we've had something like 5 GM's and 5 head coaches. We had to sell off a home game to another city because our owner keeps crying poverty (an owner that routinely gets praised on this board for some odd reason).

What do you expect when you come to this message board? The reality is that there aren't a whole lot of good things to say about this team right now.

[better days]

this is nothing but assumption and speculation, as the Bills haven't anywhere close to winning the SB since this board has been in existence. You can't presume to know how people will act in a situation that has never occurred.

And I don't understand this "I'm so sick of people being negative" mentality.

We have a football team that has sucked for a decade. We were the 3rd worst team in the league last year. We haven't been to the playoffs in 11 years and haven't won a playoff game in about 13. During that span, we've had something like 5 GM's and 5 head coaches. We had to sell off a home game to another city because our owner keeps crying poverty (an owner that routinely gets praised on this board for some odd reason).

What do you expect when you come to this message board? The reality is that there aren't a whole lot of good things to say about this team right now.

Well, why do people presume Ralph has no plan in place to keep the Bills in Buffalo? That is nothing but assumption & speculation.

When I come on this board, I expect people to be realistic about the fact things have changed. The Bills have a new front office & I like what they have shown thus far. Many people on this board want to blame past mistakes on people that were not in charge at the time & assume & speculate that they will be as bad as the people that were in charge in the past were.

[OpIv37]

Well, why do people presume Ralph has no plan in place to keep the Bills in Buffalo? That is nothing but assumption & speculation.

When I come on this board, I expect people to be realistic about the fact things have changed. The Bills have a new front office & I like what they have shown thus far. Many people on this board want to blame past mistakes on people that were not in charge at the time & assume & speculate that they will be as bad as the people that were in charge in the past were.

People presume Ralph doesn't have a plan in place to keep the Bills in Buffalo because
a) he has said he isn't going to sell before he dies, which means his family will inherit the team, and they have said they have no interest in running it.

b) if there was something in place, he could end a lot of speculation and assumption by just making it public. He has a lot to gain and very little to lose by coming out with the information. There is no good reason to keep it secret and numerous reasons to announce it.

c) there has been ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to suggest Ralph has a plan- no rumors, no innuendo, no circumstantial evidence. Nothing.

Yes, it's speculation, but it's pretty damn reasonable speculation.

Nix hasn't impressed me at all yet, but I'm coming around on Gailey. That being said, neither guy has shown results yet and both were picked by the same guy who picked our last 4 failures at coach and GM: Ralph Wilson. Granted, Ralph didn't hand-pick the coach, but it's his money and he gets final say. There is no reason to believe this time will be different until they prove it.

And even if you're right and the FO turns out to be good, the good is what you think will happen. The bad is what has already happened, so even if the future looks good, it doesn't change the fact that there's still a lot of bad to discuss.

Want an example: Aaron Maybin is still on the team. It's not Nix's or Gailey's fault, and it's not Maybin's fault that he was picked so high, but the end result is still that we have a #9 draft pick from just two years ago on our team not doing jack ****. It doesn't matter how it happened or whose fault it is- it's still a situation that this team has to get past.

[better days]

People presume Ralph doesn't have a plan in place to keep the Bills in Buffalo because
a) he has said he isn't going to sell before he dies, which means his family will inherit the team, and they have said they have no interest in running it.

b) if there was something in place, he could end a lot of speculation and assumption by just making it public. He has a lot to gain and very little to lose by coming out with the information. There is no good reason to keep it secret and numerous reasons to announce it.

c) there has been ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to suggest Ralph has a plan- no rumors, no innuendo, no circumstantial evidence. Nothing.

Yes, it's speculation, but it's pretty damn reasonable speculation.

Nix hasn't impressed me at all yet, but I'm coming around on Gailey. That being said, neither guy has shown results yet and both were picked by the same guy who picked our last 4 failures at coach and GM: Ralph Wilson. Granted, Ralph didn't hand-pick the coach, but it's his money and he gets final say. There is no reason to believe this time will be different until they prove it.

And even if you're right and the FO turns out to be good, the good is what you think will happen. The bad is what has already happened, so even if the future looks good, it doesn't change the fact that there's still a lot of bad to discuss.

Want an example: Aaron Maybin is still on the team. It's not Nix's or Gailey's fault, and it's not Maybin's fault that he was picked so high, but the end result is still that we have a #9 draft pick from just two years ago on our team not doing jack ****. It doesn't matter how it happened or whose fault it is- it's still a situation that this team has to get past.

So you feel entitled to make assumptions & speculations & presume to know what Ralph will do with the Bills, but you do not want me to make assumptions & speculate that negative people will always be who they are, negative.

[Mski]

People presume Ralph doesn't have a plan in place to keep the Bills in Buffalo because
a) he has said he isn't going to sell before he dies, which means his family will inherit the team, and they have said they have no interest in running it.

Not entirely true... they said they couldnt afford to not sell the team beacause of the estate taxes (at the time 35% of total gain).

the estate tax laws have changed greatly since then, and who's to say that he hasnt done propper estate planning to save he family from that tax burden.

that doesnt mean there is a succession plan, but it doesnt mean there is the inevitable sale of the team upon his death anymore

[OpIv37]

Not entirely true... they said they couldnt afford to not sell the team beacause of the estate taxes (at the time 35% of total gain).

the estate tax laws have changed greatly since then, and who's to say that he hasnt done propper estate planning to save he family from that tax burden.

that doesnt mean there is a succession plan, but it doesnt mean there is the inevitable sale of the team upon his death anymore

but the overall value of the team has gone up, so even if the % is lower for the estate tax, it could still wind up being more than the family could afford out of pocket.

And, if they have no interest in running the team, it doesn't matter if they get it completely tax- free. They'd still sell it.

[OpIv37]

So you feel entitled to make assumptions & speculations & presume to know what Ralph will do with the Bills, but you do not want me to make assumptions & speculate that negative people will always be who they are, negative.

My speculation is logical for the reasons I've stated.

It is not reasonable to assume that people who are realistic about a team in a negative situation will be negative when the team is no longer in a negative situation.

You're free to speculate all you want, but don't be surprised if you get called out when you have poor logic behind your speculation.

[better days]

My speculation is logical for the reasons I've stated.

It is not reasonable to assume that people who are realistic about a team in a negative situation will be negative when the team is no longer in a negative situation.

You're free to speculate all you want, but don't be surprised if you get called out when you have poor logic behind your speculation.

It is reasonable to assume that negative people will always be negative. That is their personality & it won't change.


If you want to call me out for my reasonable assumption that negative people will always be that way, you are free to do so, but logic is on my side, not yours.

[OpIv37]

It is reasonable to assume that negative people will always be negative. That is their personality & it won't change.


If you want to call me out for my reasonable assumption that negative people will always be that way, you are free to do so, but logic is on my side, not yours.

It is not reasonable to assume that someone who complains about a poorly performing football team on a message board devoted to said team is a "negative person." They are just discussing the reality that their team is in at the moment.

That is why your assumption is unreasonable and logic is not on your side.

[better days]

It is not reasonable to assume that someone who complains about a poorly performing football team on a message board devoted to said team is a "negative person." They are just discussing the reality that their team is in at the moment.

That is why your assumption is unreasonable and logic is not on your side.

While not every person that has negative things to say about the Bills is a negative person, many are.

I said SOME people will find something negative to say when the Bills start winning, not every person that has ever said anything negative about the Bills. Hell, I have had negative things to say about them myself & have agreed with some of the negative things you have said about them.

My assumption is that there are SOME negative people in this world & some of them are on this board. My assumption is both reasonable & logical.

[OpIv37]

My assumption is that there are SOME negative people in this world & some of them are on this board. My assumption is both reasonable & logical.

I agree, that much is reasonable and logical.

The logical fallacy is assuming you can make a determination that someone is a negative person based solely on what they say about a poorly performing football team. You don't know anyone one this board in real life. You don't know how they feel or react to other subjects. And you don't know who's a negative person that's going to ***** when we win until we actually win.

[better days]

I agree, that much is reasonable and logical.

The logical fallacy is assuming you can make a determination that someone is a negative person based solely on what they say about a poorly performing football team. You don't know anyone one this board in real life. You don't know how they feel or react to other subjects. And you don't know who's a negative person that's going to ***** when we win until we actually win.

Well, I only made that assumption about one person, FunTimesYaY. I could be wrong & he won't have anything negative to say when the Bills start winning, but I think it was a reasonable assumption to make.

[SABURZFAN]

I'm always shocked to see how many Bills fans still consider Ralph a good owner.


i'm not. a lot of these idiots thought JP Lossman deserved a contract extension.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, I only made that assumption about one person, FunTimesYaY. I could be wrong & he won't have anything negative to say when the Bills start winning, but I think it was a reasonable assumption to make.


:rofl:

If you hate my realism enough to single me out...do yourself a favor and block me.

Thanks.

In advance.

[better days]

:rofl:

If you hate my realism enough to single me out...do yourself a favor and block me.

Thanks.

In advance.

Well, if I block you, I will miss out on some great replys to your posts, so I won't do that.