The Bills- Chasing their tails

[X-Era]

A guy called into WGR and went on a rant about how the Bills never keep the guys that are actually good. CB was the main point. We didn't want to pay Winfield so we draft Clements, who we didn't want to pay so we draft McKelvin.

He capped his rant by saying they chase their tails.

That may be the simplest way to describe the frustration I feel at times toward this team.

They don't ever seem to get better as far as overall talent. They simply try to fight fires that they started when they didn't keep the good players.

Now, I actually like much of what they have done in FA this year because it appears to be not be chasing their tails. Or is It?

I mean we drafted Aaron Williams because we may not want to pay Florence what he may bring. But, he stayed so now we are theoretically stronger this year at CB. That coudl ahve gone the other way but fortunately it didn't and we now are significantly better, at least as far as depth, at CB.

They drafted Sheppard because they may not be able to resign Poz. They lost Poz but replaced him with Barnett. I'm OK with this but to be honest I wanted an ILB from FA whether we resigned Poz or not. It was a situation where we needed to add to Poz and not just from a rookie. Davis is good but he is a backup. Adding Barnett provided a spot for Shepp to replace Davis. And that may work. But if Shepp doesn't earn the job, Davis's spot has not been upgraded and remains inadequate to me. And If Shepp doesn't seize a starting role, we may need to be looking at a ILB in the draft next year yet again and that means potentially chasing your tail.

And the other place where it may play out going into next years draft is that we may not be able to draft a QB because we have bigger needs like OT. Provided they resign Fitz. We traded Peters and then were forced to chase our tail to replace him. We still haven't filled his shoes and still have a hole at RT as well. But going into the draft, we may have not resigned Fitz or Bell. And then we go into the draft with a need to find insurance to their potential losses. If either leaves, we have a clear need from the draft, if we draft someone we just chased our tails yet again.

The problem is, we never move forward in FA making moves where we are significantly improving a part of the team when we don't have significant holes in other places. We chase our tails replacing players we lost or didn't want to pay by spending draft picks to replace them or signing players to replace them. We chase our tails trying to fill holes we made by not resigning a player or not addressing it in FA.

Yes, loss is to be expected. But if you ever plan to get significantly better as far as overall talent, you must adequately replace what you lost AND add significant upgrades in the same season. The Pats resigned Matt Light, resigned Logan Mankins, traded for Ocho, traded for Haynesworth, and signed Andre Carter... all while being much closer to the cap than us. So they didn't chase their tails trying to fill losses, they kept the players they needed to keep and added players to at a minimum upgrade their depth. This is how you get better year after year, this is how you keep what is good and still get better.

If you don't, your chasing your tail... And our history in the past decade shows this.

[better days]

Didn't you say the Bills should trade Evans? Chasing tail.....

[baalworship]

You are operating under the assumption that the Bills have had the same management for the last decade. Donahoe, Mularkey, Gregg Williams, Marv Levy, Jauron, Brandon have morphed into Gailey and Nix. If that is the premise there is no argument for you. We suck and always will suck.

I have no idea if Nix and Gailey can right the ship but they do feel more competent and I am willing to give them a chance.

This year will show a lot.

Nix has to have Spiller, Troup, Carrington, Moats, Dareus, Williams, etc playing well. If they are I will be happy.

Gailey has to show he can coach a team, not just offense.

[X-Era]

Didn't you say the Bills should trade Evans? Chasing tail.....I said they should only trade him if they get a starting OT and feel a) Stevie can be a #1 and b) they have a player who can step up into the #2 role.

Trading Evans for a draft pick is chasing their tail. Moving a player from a position of strength where you can handle the loss, to add a starter to a position that's shaky is actually getting better as far as overall talent.

[Oaf]

Dude. Think about running back. Travis Henry -> Willis McGahee -> Marshawn Lynch -> CJ Spiller -> how much you want a bet we cut Johnny White one of these next two years and draft a running back high?

[X-Era]

You are operating under the assumption that the Bills have had the same management for the last decade. Donahoe, Mularkey, Gregg Williams, Marv Levy, Jauron, Brandon have morphed into Gailey and Nix. If that is the premise there is no argument for you. We suck and always will suck.

I have no idea if Nix and Gailey can right the ship but they do feel more competent and I am willing to give them a chance.

This year will show a lot.

Nix has to have Spiller, Troup, Carrington, Moats, Dareus, Williams, etc playing well. If they are I will be happy.

Gailey has to show he can coach a team, not just offense.Donahoe made stupid contracts but was also the last guy to make a significant impact on the teams overall talent. The last time we sniffed the playoffs was in Bledsoe's first year with us. It could be that the overall talent improvement made the difference to put us a stones throw from the playoffs. We then lost all those players and began chasing our tail again.

In FA, we should have spent another 10-15 mill on talent this year. We shoudl have landed a starting caliber OT maybe OG and a pass rusher. I don't need stars, I needed guy who can contribute and start either due to lack of development from a rook or in case of injury. I'm talking about guys who land contracts from 4-6 or even 7 mill per.

[X-Era]

Dude. Think about running back. Travis Henry -> Willis McGahee -> Marshawn Lynch -> CJ Spiller -> how much you want a bet we cut Johnny White one of these next two years and draft a running back high?RB's are a dime a dozen but it's yet another spot where we simply cycle through guys and spend 1st or 2nd round picks. It's another situation of chasing your tail.

[YardRat]

I mean we drafted Aaron Williams because we may not want to pay Florence what he may bring.

They drafted Sheppard because they may not be able to resign Poz.

Those are pretty big assumptions.

[X-Era]

Those are pretty big assumptions.Why?

[YardRat]

Why?

You are assuming that the team's motive was to replace players that they were planning on possibly losing, and not drafting simply to upgrade talent.

Our LBers sucked, and the POS was at the top of the list.
Our secondary was, and probably still is, over rated.

We needed upgrades in talent at both positions, regardless of whether or not either one of those players stayed or moved on.

[justabillsfan]

I want to keep lee but he hasn't been good in three years, I think that can change but he's way to one demesional

[X-Era]

You are assuming that the team's motive was to replace players that they were planning on possibly losing, and not drafting simply to upgrade talent.

Our LBers sucked, and the POS was at the top of the list.
Our secondary was, and probably still is, over rated.

We needed upgrades in talent at both positions, regardless of whether or not either one of those players stayed or moved on.So in your mind we added Shepp and Williams to fill needs but still didn't fill the other needs or upgrade other spots... that's chasing your tail.

[Bangarang]

So in your mind we added Shepp and Williams to fill needs but still didn't fill the other needs or upgrade other spots... that's chasing your tail.

I can't believe Nix wasn't able to find a franchise LT, RT, QB, add LB depth, CB depth and find a pass catching/blocking TE in our last draft. Such a bafoon.

Are you seriously going to turn into one of those fans? You're going to rag on Nix for something that other regimes did? Give me a break.

[X-Era]

I can't believe Nix wasn't able to find a franchise LT, RT, QB, add LB depth, CB depth and find a pass catching/blocking TE in our last draft. Such a bafoon.

Are you seriously going to turn into one of those fans? You're going to rag on Nix for something that other regimes did? Give me a break.I think you missed my point.

I'm wondering why we should still be at 20+ mill under the cap with shaky starters at RG, RT, no o-line depth, etc...

If they had or plan to spend another 10-15 mill and plan to find a starting quality RT, maybe RG, and a pass rusher I'm good.

If not, we go into next years draft already, before any new losses, with several clear needs.

[Mad Max]

If you think about it, most teams, not just the Bills chase their tails most of the time.

You know how to get off the hamster wheel?

Hire a coach that knows what he's doing and draft/ Acquire Franchise players at 3-4 key positions then fill in the gaps around those difference makers. Simple in concept but obviously difficult in execution for most teams.

When did the Patriots fortunes change? After Belichunks and Marcia.

Giants? Coughlin and Eli.

NAwleans? Payton and Brees.

Iggles? Reid and Mcnabb.

Colts? Dungy and Manning.

Stillers? Chins/Tomlin and Roth

Packers? Mccarthy and Rodgers.


We've had voids at Coaching and no true difference makers since the Super Bowl years...hence our tail chasing.

We need to find some draft magic, and the tail chasing will stop quick. Maybe we already have one or two of those Franchise players on roster? Dareus? Spiller?

[X-Era]

If you think about it, most teams, not just the Bills chase their tails most of the time.

You know how to get off the hamster wheel?

Hire a coach that knows what he's doing and draft/ Acquire Franchise players at 3-4 key positions then fill in the gaps around those difference makers. Simple in concept but obviously difficult in execution for most teams.

When did the Patriots fortunes change? After Belichunks and Marcia.

Giants? Coughlin and Eli.

NAwleans? Payton and Brees.

Iggles? Reid and Mcnabb.

Colts? Dungy and Manning.

Stillers? Chins/Tomlin and Roth

Packers? Mccarthy and Rodgers.


We've had voids at Coaching and no true difference makers since the Super Bowl years...hence our tail chasing.

We need to find some draft magic, and the tail chasing will stop quick. Maybe we already have one or two of those Franchise players on roster? Dareus? Spiller?And we may have that same need at QB... but may skip it because we need to fill other spots. Or, with the holes that we didn't fill in FA, we need to get more out of next years draft and can't afford to go all in for Luck.

[mrbojanglezs]

the best analogy is the bills are spinning their tires in mud and the mud is hitting us in the face

[BillsWin]

Landing Clabo would have completely changed everything in the minds of Bills fans. My mind as well.

[Mad Max]

And we may have that same need at QB... but may skip it because we need to fill other spots. Or, with the holes that we didn't fill in FA, we need to get more out of next years draft and can't afford to go all in for Luck.

I don't know if you actually believe this or are just trying to back up your premise.

Because I see exactly a 0.00000000000000000 % probability that the Bills would pass up Luck if they get the number one pick.

There are no more pressing needs on any team than a Franchise QB. Fitz ain't that guy IMO. I thought my list depicted that premise fairly nicely, maybe not.

[X-Era]

I don't know if you actually believe this or are just trying to back up your premise.

Because I see exactly a 0.00000000000000000 % probability that the Bills would pass up Luck if they get the number one pick.

There are no more pressing needs on any team than a Franchise QB. Fitz ain't that guy IMO. I thought my list depicted that premise fairly nicely, maybe not.That's why I said "all in". I don't think there is any chance we pick #1, and with other needs, we probably will argue we can't afford to trade the picks it will take to move up.

[Mad Max]

That's why I said "all in". I don't think there is any chance we pick #1, and with other needs, we probably will argue we can't afford to trade the picks it will take to move up.

If a QB poor team lands the #1 spot, it will take an act of Congress to pry away the pick from them. Come on man you know this.

As far as what the Bills would do if they were picking 2 for example and the Panthers got the 1 pick again. Would the Bills pay deep to move up that slot? I would give up the entire draft without hesitation.

Would you have given up the entire years draft for Peyton? Rodgers? Brady?

I am a firm believer of high quality at a few key positions than trying to fill every single position with above average players. The former method wins Super Bowls, the latter method makes the Chiefs and Chargers.

[X-Era]

If a QB poor team lands the #1 spot, it will take an act of Congress to pry away the pick from them. Come on man you know this.

As far as what the Bills would do if they were picking 2 for example and the Panthers got the 1 pick again. Would the Bills pay deep to move up that slot? I would give up the entire draft without hesitation.

Would you have given up the entire years draft for Peyton? Rodgers? Brady?

I am a firm believer of high quality at a few key positions than trying to fill every single position with above average players. The former method wins Super Bowls, the latter method makes the Chiefs and Chargers.OK. I think I've said I don't necessarily disagree.

It's the Bills who aren't filling enough clear needs to be able to make a move like this.

[theanswer74]

When you have 4 head coaches in a decade there will be some tail chasing. Each coach wants their players. For some reason its hard for Bills fans to move on from one regime to the next, it gets harder with each losing regime, understandable, but we have to forget the dumb moves of the past. Its hard for me to do also.

[YardRat]

So in your mind we added Shepp and Williams to fill needs but still didn't fill the other needs or upgrade other spots... that's chasing your tail.

If you can find me a team that has been able to address all of their needs at one time I'd like to see them.

[YardRat]

OK. I think I've said I don't necessarily disagree.

It's the Bills who aren't filling enough clear needs to be able to make a move like this.

I'm just as disappointed as you that the Bills haven't done anything on the offensive line, but other than that you really can't criticize the front office for failing to do the same with just about any other squad on the team, especially over the first 18 months of this regime.

[X-Era]

If you can find me a team that has been able to address all of their needs at one time I'd like to see them.Zero defense for sitting at 20+ mill under the cap and starting Pears and Urbik. There is zero defense for that. And the Pats this year is the type of roster management we should be using.

I don't need all needs addressed I need serious flaws addressed.

[YardRat]

Zero defense for sitting at 20+ mill under the cap and starting Pears and Urbik. There is zero defense for that. And the Pats this year is the type of roster management we should be using.

I don't need all needs addressed I need serious flaws addressed.

You would be the second poster whining (after Op) if the team went out and blew big money on the garbage that is out there now after they didn't pan out and put the team in too tight of a cap situation to re-sign the guys that are going to be FA's next season.

[BillsFever21]

RB's are a dime a dozen but it's yet another spot where we simply cycle through guys and spend 1st or 2nd round picks. It's another situation of chasing your tail.

We just keep drafting RB's high in the first round and then trading them for 3rd or 4th round picks a few years later and then draft another RB in the 1st round to replace them.

That's a horrible strategy with any position let alone RB when teams continue to find RB's anywhere throughout the draft because they are now a dime a dozen. There is a reason why only one RB went in the 1st round this year and that wasn't until late in the 1st round. Yet the Bills have spent two top 10 draft picks on RB's in the last 4 years and another 1st and 2nd round RB in the few years prior to that. If I remember correctly we have also spend a 3rd and 4th round pick on RB's for backups who flamed out and turned into nobodies.

[X-Era]

You would be the second poster whining (after Op) if the team went out and blew big money on the garbage that is out there now after they didn't pan out and put the team in too tight of a cap situation to re-sign the guys that are going to be FA's next season.Absolutely wrong. I would have no problem with spending big money and failing, It's at least trying to get better.

I've been clear. I don't necessarily want big money guys. I want 4-6 or 7 mill guys. I want average, but solid starters at a few more positions.

[MikeInRoch]

I'll agree regarding Winfield - but the Clements comment is rediculous. In no way, shape, or form was he worth what the 49ers paid him.

[mikemac2001]

http://www.bangcartoon.com/2007/inthemoney.htm

Watch this it's priceless

[better days]

I said they should only trade him if they get a starting OT and feel a) Stevie can be a #1 and b) they have a player who can step up into the #2 role.

Trading Evans for a draft pick is chasing their tail. Moving a player from a position of strength where you can handle the loss, to add a starter to a position that's shaky is actually getting better as far as overall talent.

Well, to lose a player of Evans ability is chasing tail most likely. I doubt they get another player at a position of need as good at his position as Evans is at his.

[better days]

Zero defense for sitting at 20+ mill under the cap and starting Pears and Urbik. There is zero defense for that. And the Pats this year is the type of roster management we should be using.

I don't need all needs addressed I need serious flaws addressed.

Who would you have the Bills start instead of Pears & Urbik? Building a team is not about spending money.

The Bucs have spent less than the Bills but have a pretty good team. They are farther along with the rebuild than the Bills only because they had less holes to fill.

[X-Era]

Landing Clabo would have completely changed everything in the minds of Bills fans. My mind as well.Would have made a big difference. The next question is whether we still would have signed Brad Smith, or Nick Barnett. Sometimes I get the feeling the Bills maintain a steady total team salary which usually is around 20-25 mill under the cap. If true, signing Clabo would mean not signing someone else. If they drop that number to 5-10 mill under the cap by adding 2 or 3 more solid starters at say 5 mill per, I would be fine.

[X-Era]

Well, to lose a player of Evans ability is chasing tail most likely. I doubt they get another player at a position of need as good at his position as Evans is at his.OK. And if the terms don't fit for us we shouldn't make the trade. I would not trade Evans for a draft pick or picks.

[X-Era]

Who would you have the Bills start instead of Pears & Urbik? Building a team is not about spending money.

The Bucs have spent less than the Bills but have a pretty good team. They are farther along with the rebuild than the Bills only because they had less holes to fill.There were a whole host of players available at the start that could have been better options than Pears. There still may be a few.

[better days]

There were a whole host of players available at the start that could have been better options than Pears. There still may be a few.

Nix and Gailey have both said they really like Pears. I guess we will soon see if they are right about him or not.

[better days]

Would have made a big difference. The next question is whether we still would have signed Brad Smith, or Nick Barnett. Sometimes I get the feeling the Bills maintain a steady total team salary which usually is around 20-25 mill under the cap. If true, signing Clabo would mean not signing someone else. If they drop that number to 5-10 mill under the cap by adding 2 or 3 more solid starters at say 5 mill per, I would be fine.

We will never know, but I think they would have signed Barnett for sure. For one thing he cost less than Poz would have, for another they really NEED him. They may not have been as quick to sign Smith so the Jets would have had the chance to resign him.

[Mski]

Would you have given up the entire years draft for Peyton? Rodgers? Brady?

Peyton, yes, Rodgers, no, Brady went in the 6th round, so again, no.

[acehole]

I think they are waiting to see what they got....

Which guys are stepping up.

They will make some more signings.

Bottom line is they are frugal.




Peyton, yes, Rodgers, no, Brady went in the 6th round, so again, no.