Buddy's Impact

[EDS]

Who are the three best players Buddy has added to the team?

[bf1]

:rofl:

[Historian]

Dave Wannestadt?

[bf1]

If you ask any of the tribal fans, they'll give him credit for bottoming out the team, which is apparently necessary for teams to do before they "really" start to improve. Little did we know the bottoming out process is longer than expected.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Merriman

[EDS]

Merriman

A guy picked up off the waiver wire and has not played a meaningful game in 3 years. Hey, it is a start.

[ddaryl]

lets see how Troup Carrington, Easley, Jones, Dareus, Sheppard, Williams etc.. turnout over the next couple of seasons

building through the draft wasn't going to be a single season rebuild..

[EDS]

lets see how Troup Carrington, Easley, Jones, Dareus, Sheppard, Williams etc.. turnout over the next couple of seasons

building through the draft wasn't going to be a single season rebuild..

Now with Buddy doing the drafting that is for sure. I think the Packers and the Steelers got more contributions from rookies last year and they were playing for a SB.

[bf1]

Don't forget he was head of national scouting when they drafted maybin.

[justasportsfan]

Don't forget he was head of national scouting when they drafted maybin.
MOdrak had the final say in that department

[YardRat]

We'll know better in a couple of seasons.

I'm pretty excited about the young guys on the defensive side of the ball, and looking forward to how they progress and grow.

[OpIv37]

lets see how Troup Carrington, Easley, Jones, Dareus, Sheppard, Williams etc.. turnout over the next couple of seasons

building through the draft wasn't going to be a single season rebuild..

wake up, people.

"Building through the draft" is just a bull**** cop out created by Russ Brandon's PR machine to buy 2 or 3 years with no expectations of results from fans.

With the way this team conducts business, it would take 3 years of perfect drafts to actually win, and since drafting is an inexact science, that's damn near impossible.

"Building through the draft" is just a bull**** excuse for building for a future that will never arrive.

[OpIv37]

building through the draft wasn't going to be a single season rebuild..

and adding to that, we could have said the same thing in 2001 or 2004 or 2007. Where did that get us?

This franchise is an epic failure all because of one man: Ralph ****ing Wilson.

[better days]

lets see how Troup Carrington, Easley, Jones, Dareus, Sheppard, Williams etc.. turnout over the next couple of seasons

building through the draft wasn't going to be a single season rebuild..

I have no faith that Nix won't trade any of them for a 4th or 5th rnd pick next year or the year after.

[Jan Reimers]

wake up, people.

"Building through the draft" is just a bull**** cop out created by Russ Brandon's PR machine to buy 2 or 3 years with no expectations of results from fans.

With the way this team conducts business, it would take 3 years of perfect drafts to actually win, and since drafting is an inexact science, that's damn near impossible.

"Building through the draft" is just a bull**** excuse for building for a future that will never arrive.
Building primarily through the draft is a great concept, as evidenced by most successful teams. But those teams 1) generally draft well 2) retain their own good players, and 3) use Free Agency to add the finishing pieces.

We are not great at 1), and are abysmal at 2) and 3).

[Historian]

2) retain their own good players,

Just in case the apologists didn't see it the first time, Jan.

[ddaryl]

Poz signed for 7.5 million.. and he didn't fit he scheme.. money wasn't the reason he left

Whitner.. who cares.

Evans is a bit of shock... but obviously Nix and Gailey want to let the younger guys take over. i do not beleive it was financial at all, it was all about the rebuild. Lee was 1 dimensional and his 33 rec and 47 rec the last 2 years weren't anything that teams feared. Looking forward ot seeing what Nelson, Jones, Davis, Roosevelt, Easely can do

I think Nix's 1st 2 drafts were the best consecutive drafts this franchise has had in a decade +...

[better days]

Dave Wannestadt?

That was due to Wannys relationship with Chan, Nix had nothing to do with it.

[Historian]

If these guys were in charge in 1986 we would have let Kelly go to the Raiders for a third, and gone with Bruce Mathison...

"....cause he had upside!" (in full southern drawl)

[cookie G]

If these guys were in charge in 1986 we would have let Kelly go to the Raiders for a third, and gone with Bruce Mathison...

"....cause he had upside!" (in full southern drawl)

They would have traded Andre Reed after the 1987 season because he only had 57 receptions, and they wanted to see what Reggie Bynum could do.

[sam5767]

I know it's sounds cliche, but we need a QB that can go out there and win games....Fitzy showed flashes of it last year, and hopefully he can continue. Gailey seems to at least be decent offensively.....and hopefully the D can step it up this year, but the bottom line is....we go as far as our QB takes us.

The only real difference between us and a team like the Pats is Tom Brady. I live in the smack dab middle of patsy nation (about 30 miles south of Foxboro) and hear it all the time...Bills can't draft...Bills can't/don't/won't get quality FA's....blah...blah....but then one day me and a few of the kool aid drinking patriot lemmings sat down and actually compared drafts/FA's/trades of Bills and Pats the past 10 years and you know what...? They ain't much better at this than our guys!! Belly has made just about as many gaffes in the draft and free agency as we have....more if you consider the fact they have had more 1st and 2nd round picks than us during this timeframe....and after 10 years of belly picking his own guys, the pats still have huge question marks on D....no real game breaking WR and no stud RB....yes, they've had some good picks and acquisitions (and some of those were let go because of money - sound familiar?)...and so have we.....but my point is they have had more or less the same amount of success (or lack of) as us......BUT....they have had two huge constants....Brady and Belly! And that has made all the difference...

[better days]

I know it's sounds cliche, but we need a QB that can go out there and win games....Fitzy showed flashes of it last year, and hopefully he can continue. Gailey seems to at least be decent offensively.....and hopefully the D can step it up this year, but the bottom line is....we go as far as our QB takes us.

The only real difference between us and a team like the Pats is Tom Brady. I live in the smack dab middle of patsy nation (about 30 miles south of Foxboro) and hear it all the time...Bills can't draft...Bills can't/don't/won't get quality FA's....blah...blah....but then one day me and a few of the kool aid drinking patriot lemmings sat down and actually compared drafts/FA's/trades of Bills and Pats the past 10 years and you know what...? They ain't much better at this than our guys!! Belly has made just about as many gaffes in the draft and free agency as we have....more if you consider the fact they have had more 1st and 2nd round picks than us during this timeframe....and after 10 years of belly picking his own guys, the pats still have huge question marks on D....no real game breaking WR and no stud RB....yes, they've had some good picks and acquisitions (and some of those were let go because of money - sound familiar?)...and so have we.....but my point is they have had more or less the same amount of success (or lack of) as us......BUT....they have had two huge constants....Brady and Belly! And that has made all the difference...

Well, they have also cheated & have had the refs give them questionable calls. Did you watch the Pats* game the other night? A TD was ruled on a run when the ball clearly did not cross the goal line & even after the new mandatory review, it was not overturned & still called a TD.

TOTAL BS. Before the review the announcers said the call would be overturned, after it was not overturned they said no more about it. The Pats* have the refs in their back pocket.

[Mike]

If you ask any of the tribal fans, they'll give him credit for bottoming out the team, which is apparently necessary for teams to do before they "really" start to improve. Little did we know the bottoming out process is longer than expected.


LOL

[EDS]

Big difference however in that the bills have been drafting in the top 10 and pats at the bottom of the first. Their draft class last season was heaps better than the bills.


I know it's sounds cliche, but we need a QB that can go out there and win games....Fitzy showed flashes of it last year, and hopefully he can continue. Gailey seems to at least be decent offensively.....and hopefully the D can step it up this year, but the bottom line is....we go as far as our QB takes us.

The only real difference between us and a team like the Pats is Tom Brady. I live in the smack dab middle of patsy nation (about 30 miles south of Foxboro) and hear it all the time...Bills can't draft...Bills can't/don't/won't get quality FA's....blah...blah....but then one day me and a few of the kool aid drinking patriot lemmings sat down and actually compared drafts/FA's/trades of Bills and Pats the past 10 years and you know what...? They ain't much better at this than our guys!! Belly has made just about as many gaffes in the draft and free agency as we have....more if you consider the fact they have had more 1st and 2nd round picks than us during this timeframe....and after 10 years of belly picking his own guys, the pats still have huge question marks on D....no real game breaking WR and no stud RB....yes, they've had some good picks and acquisitions (and some of those were let go because of money - sound familiar?)...and so have we.....but my point is they have had more or less the same amount of success (or lack of) as us......BUT....they have had two huge constants....Brady and Belly! And that has made all the difference...

[BertSquirtgum]

Buddy is too busy holding Ralph's drool cup to worry about making this team better. The Bills blow.

[BertSquirtgum]

I hope they prove me wrong but I don't see it happening. The defense might be average this year but I feel the offense is going to be putrid unless Buddy adds a right tackle somehow. I also think hangman would be better than urbik, urbik looked like **** out there.

[sam5767]

Big difference however in that the bills have been drafting in the top 10 and pats at the bottom of the first. Their draft class last season was heaps better than the bills.

I'm not saying that Pats never picked well....nor am I just talking about last season, I'm talking about the last 10 years in general...the Belly era....look at the year by year picks and FA's and you'll see they is not that great a difference from them and us as far as hits and misses

And...I think it's debatable as far as their class being "heaps" better thank ours last year....still way to early to tell, but let's compare: (I don't count anything past 3rd round as those are more luck than anything else)

Pats had 1 first rounder, 3 second rounders

1 - Devin McCourty.......no question, great pick...so far
2 - Rob Gronkowski.....solid red zone guy....are his rookie numbers a product of Brady?
2 - Jermaine Cunningham....according to pats beat writers, he was a disappointment last year and again thus far in camp this year...a non factor so far
2- Brandon Spikes.......so far, a jag (just another guy)

Our 1st 3 picks last year:

1 - CJ Spiller....too early to tell...holdout and crowded backfield to start season hurt
2 - Torell Troup .....was as much of factor as Cunningham/Spikes
3 - Alex Carrington....was as much of factor asCunningham/Spikes

Our 1st round pick was higher, but they had more top picks than we did....I don't see there 2010 draft being leaps and bounds ahead of us....at least not at this point. But again, my point was overall during the Belly era....

Look at 09.....pats had 4 second rounders and 2 third rounders....they took Chung, Brace, Butler, Volmer, Tate, Mckenzie....Chung is the only starter, Butler and Mckenzie have been disappointments, Brace and Volmer are average back-ups and Tate has not been the consistent deep threat they hoped for.....we took Maybin, Wood, Byrd, Levitre with our 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders...Maybin was a bust, but we got 3 solid starters out of Wood, Byrd and Levitre and Byrd lead NFL in int's rookie season...

All I'm saying is that we are not any worse than the so called geniuses when it comes to drafting and FA's....hall of fame QB's make all the difference...

[better days]

Big difference however in that the bills have been drafting in the top 10 and pats at the bottom of the first. Their draft class last season was heaps better than the bills.

Their draft last year came out of the gate faster than the Bills & played better last year. It remains to be seen which class will be better over the long haul.

[Ickybaluky]

Brace and Volmer are average back-ups

Vollmer is one of the best young OT in the NFL. He started at LT for 4 games as a rookie when Matt Light was hurt and performed great. He them suffered a mild concussion and missed 2 games. He returned as the starting RT and has been every since.

These are current Pats who are starters or key contributors that have picked up in the draft:

Tom Brady
Logan Mankins
Vince Wilfork
Matt Light
Dan Koppen
Jerod Mayo
Devin McCourty
Mike Wright
Brandon Meriweather
Stephen Goskowski
Deion Branch
Rob Gronkowski
Jermaine Cunningham
Patrick Chung
Sebastian Vollmer
Aaron Hernandez
Brandon Spikes

All those guys are critical players who are very good starters. Beyond that, there are other guys who have been good in roles like Julian Edelman, Myron Pryor, Zoltan Mesko, Matt Slater and James Sanders.

They have several undrafted guys who have contributed in BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Kyle Love, Brian Hoyer and Dane Fletcher.

They carried Taylor Price on the roster last year and he is going to be a player.

Yes, Butler has been a bust. Brace has flashed ability, but can't stay healthy. You miss on some guys. But the core of one of the NFL's best teams has been built through the draft. You can't argue otherwise.

[Ickybaluky]

Their draft last year came out of the gate faster than the Bills & played better last year. It remains to be seen which class will be better over the long haul.

Are you kidding? Devin McCourty already is one of best CB in the NFL. Right there the class is better. Rob Gronkowski is already a top-10 TE and will be seen in the pro bowl shortly. Jermaine Cunningham, Brandon Spikes Aaron Hernadez and Zoltan Mesko are already starters for them.

They had a monster draft. You get 6 starting players on one of the NFL's best teams and you had a great draft.

[better days]

Are you kidding? Devin McCourty already is one of best CB in the NFL. Right there the class is better. Rob Gronkowski is already a top-10 TE and will be seen in the pro bowl shortly. Jermaine Cunningham, Brandon Spikes Aaron Hernadez and Zoltan Mesko are already starters for them.

They had a monster draft. You get 6 starting players on one of the NFL's best teams and you had a great draft.

I said they played better last year than the Bills. It was ONE YEAR. Not a career. I remember a WR named Michael Clayton for the Bucs. GREAT ROOKIE year, looked like a future HOF player.

The Bills have a number of players from the last draft that will play much better than they did last year.

[sam5767]

Vollmer is one of the best young OT in the NFL. He started at LT for 4 games as a rookie when Matt Light was hurt and performed great. He them suffered a mild concussion and missed 2 games. He returned as the starting RT and has been every since.

These are current Pats who are starters or key contributors that have picked up in the draft:

Tom Brady
Logan Mankins
Vince Wilfork
Matt Light
Dan Koppen
Jerod Mayo
Devin McCourty
Mike Wright
Brandon Meriweather
Stephen Goskowski
Deion Branch
Rob Gronkowski
Jermaine Cunningham
Patrick Chung
Sebastian Vollmer
Aaron Hernandez
Brandon Spikes

All those guys are critical players who are very good starters. Beyond that, there are other guys who have been good in roles like Julian Edelman, Myron Pryor, Zoltan Mesko, Matt Slater and James Sanders.

They have several undrafted guys who have contributed in BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Kyle Love, Brian Hoyer and Dane Fletcher.

They carried Taylor Price on the roster last year and he is going to be a player.

Yes, Butler has been a bust. Brace has flashed ability, but can't stay healthy. You miss on some guys. But the core of one of the NFL's best teams has been built through the draft. You can't argue otherwise.

You are a pats fan I take it?

I'm not saying that Pats have not made some good draft picks...the Bills have as well

Current Bills that were draft picks and key memebrs of team

Terrrence Mgee
Steve Johnson
Eric Wood
Andy Levitre
Leodis Mckelvin
Arthur Moats
Jarius Byrd
Reggie Corner
Alex Carrington
Torell Troup
Roscoe Parrish

And that's not counting the picks that left this year to FA (Lee Evans, Paul Pozlusny, Donte Whitner)...

Again...my point is the pats have not been that much better than Buffalo.....we've both had busts too.....we whiffed on Mike Williams, JP Loshman, Aaron Maybin......you guys on Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, Chad Jackson, Darieus Butler, Lawrence Maroney, Terrance Wheatley..

We can do the same for free agents.....we can both produce a list of hits...and misses.....and it will come out more or less the same

Same for draft picks that left because of money....

The bottom line is.....you have a Tom Brady for QB...we don't......that's the REAL difference......the whole point of my comment was to show that we are not as bad as people make us out to be, at least when it comes to player selection.....the key difference was we whiffed on our QB selections and Pats have Brady...

[sam5767]

Are you kidding? Devin McCourty already is one of best CB in the NFL. Right there the class is better. Rob Gronkowski is already a top-10 TE and will be seen in the pro bowl shortly. Jermaine Cunningham, Brandon Spikes Aaron Hernadez and Zoltan Mesko are already starters for them.

They had a monster draft. You get 6 starting players on one of the NFL's best teams and you had a great draft.

LOL......Mccourty had same kind of year that Byrd did his rookie season...let's see how Mccourty does this year before we annoint him as one of best in NFL. Gronkowski is a red zone monster.....average between the 20's....but again, how much of this is a result of Brady as your QB..?? Cunningham and Spikes are average starters.....no better than Troup and Carrington....and I know you've been hearing the same things about Cunningham that I have....he's on the bubble...which is why pats have 21 DL in camp....

[Ickybaluky]

Current Bills that were draft picks and key memebrs of team

Terrrence Mgee
Steve Johnson
Eric Wood
Andy Levitre
Leodis Mckelvin
Arthur Moats
Jarius Byrd
Reggie Corner
Alex Carrington
Torell Troup
Roscoe Parrish

And that's not counting the picks that left this year to FA (Lee Evans, Paul Pozlusny, Donte Whitner)...

You are kidding, right? You can't be serious.

The Pats have won more games than any team in the NFL over the last decade, and 3/4 of the key players from those teams were drafted by them. Get it? They draft good players that are on good teams. The primary way they built their team has been through the draft, and their success speaks to how good they are at doing it.

I mean, look at that list. Wood is a pretty good player. Byrd has a chance to be a good player if he stays healthy. I've always liked McGee when he is healthy. But really how many of those guys would start on a good team like the Pats, Packers or Steelers?

I mean, really?

[Ickybaluky]

LOL......Mccourty had same kind of year that Byrd did his rookie season...let's see how Mccourty does this year before we annoint him as one of best in NFL. Gronkowski is a red zone monster.....average between the 20's....but again, how much of this is a result of Brady as your QB..?? Cunningham and Spikes are average starters.....no better than Troup and Carrington....and I know you've been hearing the same things about Cunningham that I have....he's on the bubble...which is why pats have 21 DL in camp....

You must not watch much football.

[sam5767]

You are kidding, right? You can't be serious.

The Pats have won more games than any team in the NFL over the last decade, and 3/4 of the key players from those teams were drafted by them. Get it? They draft good players that are on good teams. The primary way they built their team has been through the draft, and their success speaks to how good they are at doing it.

I mean, look at that list. Wood is a pretty good player. Byrd has a chance to be a good player if he stays healthy. I've always liked McGee when he is healthy. But really how many of those guys would start on a good team like the Pats, Packers or Steelers?

I mean, really?

LMAO....Yes..really.....i do watch football.....and this is exactly the response I figured from a patsy lemming....I've been dealing with the likes of you since about...oh...2001...that's when about 95% of die hard pats fans became pats fans. Before 2001...95% of pats fans either didn't watch football or rooted for other teams....

Look at your own list. Cunningham...Wright....Vollmer....are no better than any players on my list (unless you are a pats fan). Again...you are doing what most pats fans do.....you are avoiding the topic of discussion. Your genius has not fared that much better than our collection of front office misfits when it comes to talent evaluation....YES....pats have been successful....because ...are you ready for this....TOM BRADY!

Pats success due to (in order of importance)
1. Tom Brady
2. easy division for most of last 10 years (do pats have same success in AFC North?)
3. Belly.....(we wont even get into pre-spygate vs. post spygate...it's just a coincidence 12-2 post season w/3 SB's pre spygate and 2-3 w/1 SB loss post spygate)

The pats defense is average and has been for the last couple of years. The pass rush was a huge issue last year and was NOT addressed in the draft. The offensive line has been the fall guy in the last 3 post season losses...as has the game planning and lack of both preperation and adjustments...these are the reasons and excuses that I heard from many pats fans after each loss. The only thing saving them over the pats few years from being an average team was Tom Brady.

Here' are what I find to be symptoms of what I call "lemmings disease".

1. Pats fans are very condescending....they feel that since they root for the pats, that somehow makes them smarter than fans of other teams....LOL...as if their fandom plays a role in the success of the team...they dismiss the opinions of others and any criticism of their team as hate

2. Pats fans live in a world of double standards and hyperbole, where their guys are all great and guys from the other team stink. Their guys are the best at each position...Brady the best, belly the best...ect.....and they will hear NO arguments to the contrary.

3. Pats fans can bear NO criticism towards their beloved team, especially not belly or brady.....unless of course the criticism is made by other pats fans.

4. Pats fans have a talent for twisting words and avoiding the subject of the conversation....this being a perfect example. The comment I made was take the drafts during the belly era and Ickybalucky comes back with last years draft....

Example:
pats fan: who do you think best coach is of all time?
me: ummm....Parcells
pats fan: why!? belly is the best...how can you say otherwise?
me: why is belly the best?
pats fan: you obviously know nothing about football...he won 3 Superbowls
me: Chuck Noll won 4...Walsh and Gibbs won 3 and never lost...wouldnt he rank behing them if SB wins is the main criteria?
pats fan: how many SB;s has Buffalo won? Thought so..
me: what does that have to do with this?
pats fan: you shouldnt comment on best coaches unless you have one in the discussion
me: LOL...you asked me the question..
pats fan: umm...well....why Parcells?
me: multiple SB wins....had success with several different teams...has impressive coaching tree with a few SB winners, including belly
pats fan: you're a hater...never give belly credit
me: how so? it's my opinion.....not saying he's not good....just not best....
pats fan: typical jealous bills fan...always hating
me: sigh.......

[Ickybaluky]

Seriously, you keep dogging Vollmer. Do you realize he was named AP 2nd team All-Pro last year? That means they think he is one of the 4 best OT in the NFL. Entering his 3rd year, he his established as one of the best young OT in the game. There is no real argument there.

You call me condescending, but it is hard to take you seriously when you don't know Jack. Every team has misses in the draft, but when you look at the Pats, the primary way they have acquired players is through the draft. They also have been one of the best teams in the NFL, so one would think that the logical conclusion is they draft well. Makes sense. The Bills haven't done well in the same stretch, basically because they haven't done well drafting. You can't say otherwise. Maybe Nix can change that, but those are facts.

Saying Brady is entirely responsible for all the Pats success is equally inane. I agree having Brady is a big advantage, like Manning he is an elite player. But he was hurt in 2008 and they won 11 games. Seems to me if it was all Brady that wouldnt' happen. It is true this is a QB-driven league, but you need players around him. Besides, who drafted Brady again?

I guess you will have to wait until the season to see how this plays out. We will see what kind of production comes from the draft. I feel pretty good about it.

[sam5767]

Seriously, you keep dogging Vollmer. Do you realize he was named AP 2nd team All-Pro last year? That means they think he is one of the 4 best OT in the NFL. Entering his 3rd year, he his established as one of the best young OT in the game. There is no real argument there.

You call me condescending, but it is hard to take you seriously when you don't know Jack. Every team has misses in the draft, but when you look at the Pats, the primary way they have acquired players is through the draft. They also have been one of the best teams in the NFL, so one would think that the logical conclusion is they draft well. Makes sense. The Bills haven't done well in the same stretch, basically because they haven't done well drafting. You can't say otherwise. Maybe Nix can change that, but those are facts.

Saying Brady is entirely responsible for all the Pats success is equally inane. I agree having Brady is a big advantage, like Manning he is an elite player. But he was hurt in 2008 and they won 11 games. Seems to me if it was all Brady that wouldnt' happen. It is true this is a QB-driven league, but you need players around him. Besides, who drafted Brady again?

I guess you will have to wait until the season to see how this plays out. We will see what kind of production comes from the draft. I feel pretty good about it.

LOL...I don't know Jack...? LOL...do you prefer grape or cherry Koo Aid ?l

This is what I mean....you don't like or agree with what I say, so instead of refuting it, you get the attitude that I don't know what I'm talking about and you are infinitely wiser....never dogged Vollmer....never said Brady is entirely responsible...said he is the difference!!

My original comment was about the drafting over 1st 3 rounds since 2001. . The point I was trying to make was that there's not a huge difference, or at least not as great as many would think, between us and pats in the top part of the draft. Anything past the 3rd round is a crap-shoot...but the 1st 3 rounds is a decent measure of success in talent evaluation...in my humble opinion. Below are the draft picks of Bills and Pats during this timeframe....hits would be players that became starters and were solid contributors....misses were either straight out busts or didnt come close to playing to the expectations of where they were drafted....

2001
1 Richard Seymour .....hit
2 Matt Light...........hit
3 Brock WIlliams........miss
2002
1 Daniel Graham....miss
2 Deion Branch.....hit
2003
1 Ty Warren.........hit
2 Eugene Wilson.....miss
2 Bethel Johnson....miss
2004
1 Vince Wilfolk.....hit
1 Ben Watson........miss
2 Marquise Hill....RIP...no grade
3 Guss Scott.......miss
2005
1 Logan Mankins.....hit
3 Ellis Hobbs.......miss
3 Nick Kazur........hit
2006
1 Lawrence Maroney.....miss
2 Chad Jackson.........miss
3 David Thomas.........miss
2007
1 Brandon Merriweather..hit
2008
1 Jerod Mayo.........hit
2 Terrance Wheatley...miss
3 Shaun Crable.......miss
3 Kevin O'connel.....miss
2009
2 Pat Chung.....hit
2 Ron Brace......miss
2 Darius Butler...miss
2 Sebastian Vollmer....hit
3 Brandon Tate......miss
3 Tyrone Mckenzie....miss
2010 -too early to grade

29 picks....11 hits .....

Buffalo
2001
1 Nate Clements ....hit
2 Aaron Schobel.....hit
2 Travis Henry......hit
3 Ron Edwards......miss
3 Jonas Jennings....hit
2002
1 Mike Williams.....bust
2 Josh Reed.........hit
2 Ryan Denney.......hit
3 Coy Wire..........hit...sort of...lol
2003
1 Willis Magahee...hit
2 Chris Kelsay....hit
3 Angelo Crowell....hit
2004
1 Lee Evans...hit
1 JP Loshman....miss
3 Tim Anderson...miss
2005
2 Roscoe Parrish....hit
3 Kevin Everett...no grade
2006
1 Donte Whitner....hit
1 John Macargo....miss
3 Ashton Youbouty...miss
2007
1 Marshawn Lynch...hit
2 Paul Posluzny...hit
3 Trent Edwards...miss
2008
1 Leodis Mckelvin....hit
2 James Hardy...miss
3 Chriss Ellis....miss
2009
1 Aaron Maybin....miss
1 Eric Wood....hit
2 Jarius Byrd....hit
2 Andy Levitre...hit
2010....too early to tell
30 picks.....18 hits...

You can dance around this all you want, but I think the proof speaks for itself. AGAIN...to REPEAT....I am not saying that pats don't draft well...nor that so and so wasn't a good pick....what I am saying is that, based on the actual picks.....how can you argue that you guys did THAT much better than us...?

Question....why do you come here anyway? I mean...clearly you are a pats fan...why spend time on a Bills message board? Just curious.....

[Captain Obvious]

Question....why do you come here anyway? I mean...clearly you are a pats fan...why spend time on a Bills message board? Just curious.....

There are some Bills picks that you have as "hits" that should be "misses" and some PAts picks that yo uhave as "misses" that should be "hits"

No question Ickybalucky is condecending, swarmy and smug.. But due to the Pats success he can get away with it..When Brady and/or Belichick are gone from the Pats and if the Bills get a new owner things might be different than the way they are now and Ickybalucky more than likely will be gone from here

[sam5767]

There are some Bills picks that you have as "hits" that should be "misses" and some PAts picks that yo uhave as "misses" that should be "hits"

No question Ickybalucky is condecending, swarmy and smug.. But due to the Pats success he can get away with it..When Brady and/or Belichick are gone from the Pats and if the Bills get a new owner things might be different than the way they are now and Ickybalucky more than likely will be gone from here

Which ones...? Which hits should be misses and which misses should be hits?

And no....he cannot get away with it...he can take his patsy manlove to his own teams board. He keeps saying that the pats build thru the draft....but is that really the case? Belly is by all counts a defensive genius....and I agree with that....but he's had 10 years....a decade...to build a dominant defense and he hasn't done it yet. People laugh at us for all of the high picks used on CB's...but what about belly and TE's? They previously spent 3 high picks on TE's ....and still had to use two high picks last year on TE beacuse the others were either busts or no longer with the team. What was their biggest need going into this draft? Pass rush....and how many picks did they use to address this need...? None... they are trying to address it with trades and FA's...not draft picks. Same happened in 06/07..they filled wr needs with trades and FA signings....not the draft. In fact, they HAD to make trades because they whiffed on Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson....

All I said was that belly's drafting record was not much better than ours over last 10 years....nothing more, nothing less. I stated that main difference (that's main, not only) in their success was Tom Brady. He then comes on and trashes our picks and calls his own great (Jermaine Cunningham..? Please...) Anyway, like I said...I live smack dab in the middle of patriot nation so I deal with this on a daily basis.....LOL

[Ickybaluky]

No question Ickybalucky is condecending, swarmy and smug.. But due to the Pats success he can get away with it..When Brady and/or Belichick are gone from the Pats and if the Bills get a new owner things might be different than the way they are now and Ickybalucky more than likely will be gone from here

I wouldn't run away, although I would be less arrogant, condescending, swarmy and smug.

Like I said, time will tell. I plan on returning to this thread.

[Captain Obvious]

Which ones...? Which hits should be misses and which misses should be hits?



Daniel Graham and Ben Watson were productive TES when they played for the Pats.. I think they should be hits...

Ryan Denney and Coy Wire should be misses..They just didn't have much of a impact when they were Bills..

There are 3 !st Round draft picks (McGahee, Lynch, McKelvin) who are hard to quantify in that although none of them are "bad' football players neither one of those 3 made as much of a impact as you would expect from 1st Round picks so in a way its very borderline to call them hits

[sam5767]

Daniel Graham and Ben Watson were productive TES when they played for the Pats.. I think they should be hits...

Ryan Denney and Coy Wire should be misses..They just didn't have much of a impact when they were Bills..

There are 3 !st Round draft picks (McGahee, Lynch, McKelvin) who are hard to quantify in that although none of them are "bad' football players neither one of those 3 made as much of a impact as you would expect from 1st Round picks so in a way its very borderline to call them hits

Graham's best year w/NE was 38 catches....Watson's 49...both ended up getting released....I'd call those misses considering they were both 1st rounders...

Denney was a solid contributor....Wire...LOL...Magahee and Mckelvin both had 1000k seasons for us....and we ended up getting multiple draft picks for each one in trades...

But for the sake of argument, fine, they hit 13 out of 29...we hit 16 out of 30....it STILL supports my point of belly not fairing much better the past 10 years than us in top part of draft.

For the sake of argument,

[sam5767]

[quote=sam5767]
...Magahee and Mckelvin both had 1000k seasons for us....

meant to say magahee and lynch

[EDS]

LOL...I don't know Jack...? LOL...do you prefer grape or cherry Koo Aid ?l

This is what I mean....you don't like or agree with what I say, so instead of refuting it, you get the attitude that I don't know what I'm talking about and you are infinitely wiser....never dogged Vollmer....never said Brady is entirely responsible...said he is the difference!!

My original comment was about the drafting over 1st 3 rounds since 2001. . The point I was trying to make was that there's not a huge difference, or at least not as great as many would think, between us and pats in the top part of the draft. Anything past the 3rd round is a crap-shoot...but the 1st 3 rounds is a decent measure of success in talent evaluation...in my humble opinion. Below are the draft picks of Bills and Pats during this timeframe....hits would be players that became starters and were solid contributors....misses were either straight out busts or didnt come close to playing to the expectations of where they were drafted....

2001
1 Richard Seymour .....hit
2 Matt Light...........hit
3 Brock WIlliams........miss
2002
1 Daniel Graham....miss
2 Deion Branch.....hit
2003
1 Ty Warren.........hit
2 Eugene Wilson.....miss
2 Bethel Johnson....miss
2004
1 Vince Wilfolk.....hit
1 Ben Watson........miss
2 Marquise Hill....RIP...no grade
3 Guss Scott.......miss
2005
1 Logan Mankins.....hit
3 Ellis Hobbs.......miss
3 Nick Kazur........hit
2006
1 Lawrence Maroney.....miss
2 Chad Jackson.........miss
3 David Thomas.........miss
2007
1 Brandon Merriweather..hit
2008
1 Jerod Mayo.........hit
2 Terrance Wheatley...miss
3 Shaun Crable.......miss
3 Kevin O'connel.....miss
2009
2 Pat Chung.....hit
2 Ron Brace......miss
2 Darius Butler...miss
2 Sebastian Vollmer....hit
3 Brandon Tate......miss
3 Tyrone Mckenzie....miss
2010 -too early to grade

29 picks....11 hits .....

Buffalo
2001
1 Nate Clements ....hit
2 Aaron Schobel.....hit
2 Travis Henry......hit
3 Ron Edwards......miss
3 Jonas Jennings....hit
2002
1 Mike Williams.....bust
2 Josh Reed.........hit
2 Ryan Denney.......hit
3 Coy Wire..........hit...sort of...lol
2003
1 Willis Magahee...hit
2 Chris Kelsay....hit
3 Angelo Crowell....hit
2004
1 Lee Evans...hit
1 JP Loshman....miss
3 Tim Anderson...miss
2005
2 Roscoe Parrish....hit
3 Kevin Everett...no grade
2006
1 Donte Whitner....hit
1 John Macargo....miss
3 Ashton Youbouty...miss
2007
1 Marshawn Lynch...hit
2 Paul Posluzny...hit
3 Trent Edwards...miss
2008
1 Leodis Mckelvin....hit
2 James Hardy...miss
3 Chriss Ellis....miss
2009
1 Aaron Maybin....miss
1 Eric Wood....hit
2 Jarius Byrd....hit
2 Andy Levitre...hit
2010....too early to tell
30 picks.....18 hits...

You can dance around this all you want, but I think the proof speaks for itself. AGAIN...to REPEAT....I am not saying that pats don't draft well...nor that so and so wasn't a good pick....what I am saying is that, based on the actual picks.....how can you argue that you guys did THAT much better than us...?

Question....why do you come here anyway? I mean...clearly you are a pats fan...why spend time on a Bills message board? Just curious.....

Holy crap.

How can a guys like Daniel Graham, Eugene Wilson and Ben Watson be misses while Ryan Denney, Coy Wire, Roscoe Parrish and Josh Reed be hits?

[EDS]

Graham's best year w/NE was 38 catches....Watson's 49...both ended up getting released....I'd call those misses considering they were both 1st rounders...

Denney was a solid contributor....Wire...LOL...Magahee and Mckelvin both had 1000k seasons for us....and we ended up getting multiple draft picks for each one in trades...

But for the sake of argument, fine, they hit 13 out of 29...we hit 16 out of 30....it STILL supports my point of belly not fairing much better the past 10 years than us in top part of draft.

For the sake of argument,

For the sake of argument - look at quality of players you have on the Pats list - Mankins, Wilfork, Seymour, Mayo, etc.

Who are the biggest studs on the Bills list? Evans and Schobel?

Funny that Buddy ran both out of town.

[mjt328]

Holy crap.

How can a guys like Daniel Graham, Eugene Wilson and Ben Watson be misses while Ryan Denney, Coy Wire, Roscoe Parrish and Josh Reed be hits?

I thought exactly the same thing. Obviously this guy is vastly overrating our players. These guys weren't even marginal starters for us. If they were on the Pats, they would probably be pushed to third string.
(This is probably one of the reasons that some Bills fans are eternally optimistic about going into the season with guys like Urbik, Pears, Chandler, Kelsay and Bell in the starting lineup. The rest of us realize that upgrades are necessary.)

Another thing about his post Bills vs. Pats, is that when the Patriots hit - they hit big. And they hit in the right places. Then they KEPT those players past their rookie contracts.

Wilfork, Light, Mankins, Seymour - they were all BIG HITS.

You can say that Henry, McGahee and Lynch were "hits" because they ran for 1000 yards a couple times. But they were never stars and were gone within 4-5 years of us drafting them.

[EDS]

I thought exactly the same thing. Obviously this guy is vastly overrating our players. These guys weren't even marginal starters for us. If they were on the Pats, they would probably be pushed to third string.
(This is probably one of the reasons that some Bills fans are eternally optimistic about going into the season with guys like Urbik, Pears, Chandler, Kelsay and Bell in the starting lineup. The rest of us realize that upgrades are necessary.)

Another thing about his post Bills vs. Pats, is that when the Patriots hit - they hit big. And they hit in the right places. Then they KEPT those players past their rookie contracts.

Wilfork, Light, Mankins, Seymour - they were all BIG HITS.

You can say that Henry, McGahee and Lynch were "hits" because they ran for 1000 yards a couple times. But they were never stars and were gone within 4-5 years of us drafting them.

Exactly. Stud offensive and defensive lineman. Bills, on the other hand, hit with disposable running backs and defensive backs. Seymour is headed to the Hall of Fame. Can't say that for any of the Bills.

[mjt328]

Exactly. Stud offensive and defensive lineman. Bills, on the other hand, hit with disposable running backs and defensive backs. Seymour is headed to the Hall of Fame. Can't say that for any of the Bills.

On that list, I counted at least 5 Patriots that were perennial Pro Bowlers and some of the best at their position throughout their careers:
Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Light, Mankins
And then a couple youngsters that are well on their way to becoming stars:
Mayo, Meriweather, Vollmer.

The best Bills on that list are Clements (let go in FA after his rookie contract), Schobel (good but never a regular Pro Bowler) and Henry (traded for a mid round draft pick before bottoming out of the league).
Guys like Wood, Levitre and Byrd have potential.


But truthfully, these lists aren't even close. If anything, it shows even more how bad our drafts have been for the last decade.

[Ickybaluky]

On that list, I counted at least 5 Patriots that were perennial Pro Bowlers and some of the best at their position throughout their careers:
Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Light, Mankins

I wouldn't call Light a "perennial Pro Bowler", although he did make it a couple times. He is a guy who has been one of the better players at his position consistently over a long period of time.


And then a couple youngsters that are well on their way to becoming stars:
Mayo, Meriweather, Vollmer.

Take Meriweather off that list. He isn't a star by any measure. However, you can add Devin McCourty and Rob Gronkowski to that list. Both guys are studs.

I think he played a little trick by cutting the list off at 3 rounds too. Guys like Dan Koppen, Stephen Goskowski, Asante Samuel, Matt Cassel (how long has Buffalo been looking for a QB?) and some due named Tom Brady are ignored. Those guys are all long-time starters that have performed at a consistently high level throughout their careers. Seems like they should count.

[k-oneputt]

"09 - Maybin
'08 - Hardy
'07 - Poz
'06 - Whitner and Youboty
'04 - Evans and T. Anderson

Those are all 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks, the main part of your drafts.
I see one good player {Evans}. Two overrated players {Poz and Whitner}.
And four stiffs.

I'll let you fiqure out what they all have in common. { Ask DB }

[sam5767]

I give up....you guys have all taken what I was saying out of context. What I said was the talent that was picked in first three rounds the past 10 years was not as dramatic a difference as you might think. This somehow got twisted into a different argument....I never said we drafted better than pats.....and I didnt say our front office actions were better/smarter...my comment was based on talent. I didn't include anything after the 3rd round because those picks are more luck than anything else. Are we really to believe that Belly drafted Brady thinking he was going to be a HOF'er and win 3 SB's? If so, why did he wait until 6th rround..? I'm not saying the hits were all stars...just solid talent. Yes....pats have hit in areas that we did not (O and D lines) but that doesnt mean we did not draft talented players....we picked better at skill positions and in secondary...players that they whiffed on...my point is strictly talent evaluation....not if we kept them, if they left...what position they played....if the question is how our front office fared managing the team then yes, we are not close to pats.....but I'm just pointing out the talent picked....

I saw mayo's name mentioned several times as up and coming star....stud.....but look at his numbers...is he really any different stat-wise than Poz was? And yet Poz is referred to as "overated"..... I saw comments that Watson, Graham and Wilson should be hits and Reed , Parrish and Wire (Wire was a joke bty)misses....Reed had 311 career catches...2nd rounder....Graham had 212 and Watson 235, both 1st rounders...how am I over-rating this?

Anyway....not gonna beat this to death....my initial comment was that the biggest difference between us and pats was Brady....that belly had just about as many misses as we have....and just as many hits....YES, hits were at different positions...and yes, some of them were homeruns....and I never claimed otherwise......

[EDS]

I give up....you guys have all taken what I was saying out of context. What I said was the talent that was picked in first three rounds the past 10 years was not as dramatic a difference as you might think. This somehow got twisted into a different argument....I never said we drafted better than pats.....and I didnt say our front office actions were better/smarter...my comment was based on talent. I didn't include anything after the 3rd round because those picks are more luck than anything else. Are we really to believe that Belly drafted Brady thinking he was going to be a HOF'er and win 3 SB's? If so, why did he wait until 6th rround..? I'm not saying the hits were all stars...just solid talent. Yes....pats have hit in areas that we did not (O and D lines) but that doesnt mean we did not draft talented players....we picked better at skill positions and in secondary...players that they whiffed on...my point is strictly talent evaluation....not if we kept them, if they left...what position they played....if the question is how our front office fared managing the team then yes, we are not close to pats.....but I'm just pointing out the talent picked....

I saw mayo's name mentioned several times as up and coming star....stud.....but look at his numbers...is he really any different stat-wise than Poz was? And yet Poz is referred to as "overated"..... I saw comments that Watson, Graham and Wilson should be hits and Reed , Parrish and Wire (Wire was a joke bty)misses....Reed had 311 career catches...2nd rounder....Graham had 212 and Watson 235, both 1st rounders...how am I over-rating this?

Anyway....not gonna beat this to death....my initial comment was that the biggest difference between us and pats was Brady....that belly had just about as many misses as we have....and just as many hits....YES, hits were at different positions...and yes, some of them were homeruns....and I never claimed otherwise......

Stop looking at the stats and start looking at the results. Pats have brought in a ton more talent than the Bills in the past ten years. Mayo a much better player than Poz.

You over rate Reed and Roscoe by a lot. Roscoe has bever had more than 400 receiving yards in a season and has 7 career touchdown receptions. Reed has a measely 10 touchdown receptions. Both Graham and Watson have 20+ touchdown receptions. Both are TEs and have other responsibilities. Graham in particular is an excellent blocker.

No one the Bills drafted is on the level of guys like Seymour, Wilfork and Mankins. True studs at their positions. Those guys make a world of difference. Bills have not had any.

[sam5767]

Stop looking at the stats and start looking at the results. Pats have brought in a ton more talent than the Bills in the past ten years. Mayo a much better player than Poz.

You over rate Reed and Roscoe by a lot. Roscoe has bever had more than 400 receiving yards in a season and has 7 career touchdown receptions. Reed has a measely 10 touchdown receptions. Both Graham and Watson have 20+ touchdown receptions. Both are TEs and have other responsibilities. Graham in particular is an excellent blocker.

No one the Bills drafted is on the level of guys like Seymour, Wilfork and Mankins. True studs at their positions. Those guys make a world of difference. Bills have not had any.


:banghead:
Graham never had more than 400 yards either...and was considered a disappointment, which is why the ended up drafting Watson...who had 1 really good year (600 yards) and then disappeared....two first round picks on TE's and neither is still with the team....they also had Brady throwing to them. They also selected David Thomas....where is he? Because these players didnt work out, pats had to use two more high picks on TE last year.

To me, Mayo and poz are one in same.....both tackling machines.....neither sacks the QB or forces trunovers,....neither dominates the game like a stud LB does... they were both top 5 in tackles last year...how is Mayo that much better than Poz? I mean...if you are not going to consider stats, then it is strictly opinion and it's impossible to debate opinions .....

I'm not saying pats did not hit home runs....Seymour is no longer with the team...if he is that great a player, why didnt they keep him too? I mean, isnt he the pass rusher they kind of need right now? But this is getting away from my original comment. I guess we can agree to disagree....

GO BUFFALO !!

[Ickybaluky]

I saw mayo's name mentioned several times as up and coming star....stud.....but look at his numbers...is he really any different stat-wise than Poz was? And yet Poz is referred to as "overated".....

When you say stuff like this, it makes me wonder? You can't be serious. Mayo was Rookie of the year and made the Pro Bowl last year. Watch the guys play, Mayo is one of the best ILB in the NFL right now. Granted, Poslusny isn't a bad player. Just not the same level.

[sam5767]

When you say stuff like this, it makes me wonder? You can't be serious. Mayo was Rookie of the year and made the Pro Bowl last year. Watch the guys play, Mayo is one of the best ILB in the NFL right now. Granted, Poslusny isn't a bad player. Just not the same level.


Mayo was rookie of the year....and did what year two? He regressed...and there was concern that he would be a bust.....and then he had a good year last year. Yes...he made the probowl...but so did Merriweather....didnt like 4 or 5 pats defensive players make the probowl? And wasnt their defense ranked in the 20's...? The probowl is a joke....more popularity contest than anything else..

Is Mayo better than Poz.....yes, I'd say he's better....but to say they are on different levels is just opinion.....there are no facts to back it up. I live just south of Foxboro...I am surrounded by pats 24x7.....I listen to EEI daily....Mayo was described last season by Paul Perillo (patriots insider) as a glorified jag (just another guy). A lovable jag...but a jag. To take the next step and be an elite LB, you have to do more than tackle....he doesnt rush the passer nor does he create many turnovers....perhaps that will change, but right now I dont see a HUGE difference.

You never did answer my earlier question.......what is a pats fan doing on a Buffalo message board? Not that I have any objections to it...in fact, you seem to be an alright guy for a pats fan....just curious how/why you came here...

Of course.....most of my friends are curious as to how/why I'm a Bills fan.....LOL

[Ickybaluky]

Mayo was rookie of the year....and did what year two? He regressed...and there was concern that he would be a bust.....and then he had a good year last year. Yes...he made the probowl...but so did Merriweather....didnt like 4 or 5 pats defensive players make the probowl? And wasnt their defense ranked in the 20's...? The probowl is a joke....more popularity contest than anything else

Mayo hurt his knee in his second year. He actually hurt it in the opener against Buffalo. He missed 4 games and then played through the injury. By the end of the year he was playing back to his rookie form. There has never been talk of him being a bust.

Mayo wasn't just a Pro Bowler. He was also a 1st team AP All-Pro. You don't get that on popularity, you get it by being the best at your position. He is one of the best LB in the league, period. There is no disputing it.

[Ickybaluky]

You never did answer my earlier question.......what is a pats fan doing on a Buffalo message board? Not that I have any objections to it...in fact, you seem to be an alright guy for a pats fan....just curious how/why you came here

It has been so many years I am not even sure how I first got here. However, I liked the board and the people who run it do a good job.

[sam5767]

Mayo hurt his knee in his second year. He actually hurt it in the opener against Buffalo. He missed 4 games and then played through the injury. By the end of the year he was playing back to his rookie form. There has never been talk of him being a bust.

Mayo wasn't just a Pro Bowler. He was also a 1st team AP All-Pro. You don't get that on popularity, you get it by being the best at your position. He is one of the best LB in the league, period. There is no disputing it.

I'm just saying what the pats beat guy said...Poz was hurt too....and probowl and all pro are opinions, and sometimes you do get that on popularity......you picked AP all pro team...how about the SI All pro team? The SN all pro team? This is what I mean....it's opinions of others...one group considers him all pro, others don't. I'd be willing to bet half of the guys that voted maybe saw him once or twice during the entire season....so what besides probowl/all pro selection makes on a different level than poz was..?

I am not saying he is not good....but aside the opinions of others.....I'm just wondering what makes him be on another level? I agree he is better than poz....but on a different level?

[Ickybaluky]

I'm just saying what the pats beat guy said...Poz was hurt too....and probowl and all pro are opinions, and sometimes you do get that on popularity......you picked AP all pro team...how about the SI All pro team? The SN all pro team? This is what I mean....it's opinions of others...one group considers him all pro, others don't. I'd be willing to bet half of the guys that voted maybe saw him once or twice during the entire season....so what besides probowl/all pro selection makes on a different level than poz was..?

He is bigger, has far greater range and is way more athletic. I'm not sure what you are looking for here. You can watch the guy play and it is pretty apparent.

You pretty much invalidate every award that shows what he has accomplished. I guess you could say the same thing about Patrick Willis, who was the other first-team ILB for the AP. Clay Matthews and James Harrison were the starters at OLB on the team. None of them is much better than Poz, by your definition, I guess.

I don't even know if ESPN or the Sporting News has a All-Pro team. Pro Football weekly named his a starter on the All-Pro team (LINK (http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/01/17/many-new-faces-on-all-nfl-team)). The Sporting News named him one of the top 25 players under 25 in the NFL (LINK (http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/14626/all-afc-east-squads-make-under-25-roster)). NFL Network named him the 62nd best player in the NFL at any position on their top-100 list.

Look, the guy is really good, and pretty much everyone other than you accepts that. They watch him play, and it becomes apparent pretty fast. However, you think he is barely better than Poz.

[trapezeus]

MOdrak had the final say in that department

I thought the bills threw jauron under the bus and said the picks were all his during his stint.

either way, I get that patience isn't easy.

But A. you got no choice but to be patient and see if their plan is successful, and B. you saw with your own eyes how bad 08 was (8 losses in 10 games) and how bad 09 was (jauron's infamous 6-3 loss to the browns...athome...again).

Jauron essentially took all the players rated 80 and higher on the bills (using madden lingo) and made them 65's or lowers and then selected only 4-8 plays per game.

You know with your own eyes how awful those 7-9 seasons were. they did not feel like a team on the cusp. they struggled to get there and fizzled at the end.

gailey fizzled at the end too and that was concerning. i don't know what he's going to do for us, but i honestly could see him do miserably this season as well and still be able to be a decent coach to get us to the playoffs.

Call me crazy.

[psubills62]

I thought the bills threw jauron under the bus and said the picks were all his during his stint.

either way, I get that patience isn't easy.

But A. you got no choice but to be patient and see if their plan is successful, and B. you saw with your own eyes how bad 08 was (8 losses in 10 games) and how bad 09 was (jauron's infamous 6-3 loss to the browns...athome...again).

Jauron essentially took all the players rated 80 and higher on the bills (using madden lingo) and made them 65's or lowers and then selected only 4-8 plays per game.

You know with your own eyes how awful those 7-9 seasons were. they did not feel like a team on the cusp. they struggled to get there and fizzled at the end.

gailey fizzled at the end too and that was concerning. i don't know what he's going to do for us, but i honestly could see him do miserably this season as well and still be able to be a decent coach to get us to the playoffs.

Call me crazy.
trap, you've been unnaturally optimistic from the posts I've seen.

Anyway, I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[better days]

I thought the bills threw jauron under the bus and said the picks were all his during his stint.

either way, I get that patience isn't easy.

But A. you got no choice but to be patient and see if their plan is successful, and B. you saw with your own eyes how bad 08 was (8 losses in 10 games) and how bad 09 was (jauron's infamous 6-3 loss to the browns...athome...again).

Jauron essentially took all the players rated 80 and higher on the bills (using madden lingo) and made them 65's or lowers and then selected only 4-8 plays per game.

You know with your own eyes how awful those 7-9 seasons were. they did not feel like a team on the cusp. they struggled to get there and fizzled at the end.

gailey fizzled at the end too and that was concerning. i don't know what he's going to do for us, but i honestly could see him do miserably this season as well and still be able to be a decent coach to get us to the playoffs.

Call me crazy.

It was widely reported that Jauron got a very big say in the draft when he was hired which is not unusual at all, especially on teams without a strong GM. For example in Seattle Carroll has control of the draft.

[sam5767]

He is bigger, has far greater range and is way more athletic. I'm not sure what you are looking for here. You can watch the guy play and it is pretty apparent.

You pretty much invalidate every award that shows what he has accomplished. I guess you could say the same thing about Patrick Willis, who was the other first-team ILB for the AP. Clay Matthews and James Harrison were the starters at OLB on the team. None of them is much better than Poz, by your definition, I guess.

I don't even know if ESPN or the Sporting News has a All-Pro team. Pro Football weekly named his a starter on the All-Pro team (LINK (http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/01/17/many-new-faces-on-all-nfl-team)). The Sporting News named him one of the top 25 players under 25 in the NFL (LINK (http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/14626/all-afc-east-squads-make-under-25-roster)). NFL Network named him the 62nd best player in the NFL at any position on their top-100 list.

Look, the guy is really good, and pretty much everyone other than you accepts that. They watch him play, and it becomes apparent pretty fast. However, you think he is barely better than Poz.


More hyperbole.....not diminishing his awards, but the awards are opinion....not saying he is "barely" better......he's on most of those lists because he makes a lot of tackles and because he is on pats....what else besides tackling makes him that much better than Poz? I

All I am saying is what other proof besides the opinions of others are you basing the statement on.....the other LB's you mention do things other than tackle....they sack the QB...they force turnovers...in addition to tackling.

But like I said earlier, I'm not going to argue opinion. If you think he is among the best and a different level than Poz, then so be it.

[trapezeus]

trap, you've been unnaturally optimistic from the posts I've seen.

Anyway, I agree with this wholeheartedly.

i'm still predicting 4 wins for this team if you read my "one fan's view" on the main page.

but there is a plan that i see and i can remotely buy at this point. I buy that these defensive starters missing a real good OLB at this point, has what it takes to be competitive. it requires health because other than DL,i don't think we have depth to handle injuries.

I think chan can scheme his way into a win or two on his own with this grouping. I didn't think evans was all that. i don't think his loss will be that meaninful. we were 4-12 with him. I was bummed we got 4th rounder for him.

I can kind of buy not getting free agents to build the team. we watched them try to do that before and it didn't work.

I always though jauron was over performing with his 7-9 squads. i think the bills suck this year but will be under acheivers and it'll look quite promising for next year.

[justasportsfan]

I thought the bills threw jauron under the bus and said the picks were all his during his stint.

.
I think it went like this, head scout Modrak.Who we're drafting, Jauron.

[Ickybaluky]

More hyperbole.....not diminishing his awards, but the awards are opinion....not saying he is "barely" better......he's on most of those lists because he makes a lot of tackles and because he is on pats....what else besides tackling makes him that much better than Poz? I

All I am saying is what other proof besides the opinions of others are you basing the statement on.....the other LB's you mention do things other than tackle....they sack the QB...they force turnovers...in addition to tackling.

But like I said earlier, I'm not going to argue opinion. If you think he is among the best and a different level than Poz, then so be it.

You could say the same thing about any player. Take Mayo out of it. Look at the rest of the names on that AP All-Pro team. You won't find a patsy in the bunch. It isn't somebody's opinion, it is a group of football writers that vote together to find the best players.

I don't know what you are looking for. Like I said, pretty much any source out there is going to list Mayo as one of the best LB in the NFL. It is a consensus, not some isolated opinion. Pretty much everybody but you recognize how good a player he is.

Poz isn't a bad player. He just isn't near the class Mayo is.

[BillsFever21]

LOL...I don't know Jack...? LOL...do you prefer grape or cherry Koo Aid ?l

This is what I mean....you don't like or agree with what I say, so instead of refuting it, you get the attitude that I don't know what I'm talking about and you are infinitely wiser....never dogged Vollmer....never said Brady is entirely responsible...said he is the difference!!

My original comment was about the drafting over 1st 3 rounds since 2001. . The point I was trying to make was that there's not a huge difference, or at least not as great as many would think, between us and pats in the top part of the draft. Anything past the 3rd round is a crap-shoot...but the 1st 3 rounds is a decent measure of success in talent evaluation...in my humble opinion. Below are the draft picks of Bills and Pats during this timeframe....hits would be players that became starters and were solid contributors....misses were either straight out busts or didnt come close to playing to the expectations of where they were drafted....

2001
1 Richard Seymour .....hit
2 Matt Light...........hit
3 Brock WIlliams........miss
2002
1 Daniel Graham....miss
2 Deion Branch.....hit
2003
1 Ty Warren.........hit
2 Eugene Wilson.....miss
2 Bethel Johnson....miss
2004
1 Vince Wilfolk.....hit
1 Ben Watson........miss
2 Marquise Hill....RIP...no grade
3 Guss Scott.......miss
2005
1 Logan Mankins.....hit
3 Ellis Hobbs.......miss
3 Nick Kazur........hit
2006
1 Lawrence Maroney.....miss
2 Chad Jackson.........miss
3 David Thomas.........miss
2007
1 Brandon Merriweather..hit
2008
1 Jerod Mayo.........hit
2 Terrance Wheatley...miss
3 Shaun Crable.......miss
3 Kevin O'connel.....miss
2009
2 Pat Chung.....hit
2 Ron Brace......miss
2 Darius Butler...miss
2 Sebastian Vollmer....hit
3 Brandon Tate......miss
3 Tyrone Mckenzie....miss
2010 -too early to grade

29 picks....11 hits .....

Buffalo
2001
1 Nate Clements ....hit
2 Aaron Schobel.....hit
2 Travis Henry......hit
3 Ron Edwards......miss
3 Jonas Jennings....hit
2002
1 Mike Williams.....bust
2 Josh Reed.........hit
2 Ryan Denney.......hit
3 Coy Wire..........hit...sort of...lol
2003
1 Willis Magahee...hit
2 Chris Kelsay....hit
3 Angelo Crowell....hit
2004
1 Lee Evans...hit
1 JP Loshman....miss
3 Tim Anderson...miss
2005
2 Roscoe Parrish....hit
3 Kevin Everett...no grade
2006
1 Donte Whitner....hit
1 John Macargo....miss
3 Ashton Youbouty...miss
2007
1 Marshawn Lynch...hit
2 Paul Posluzny...hit
3 Trent Edwards...miss
2008
1 Leodis Mckelvin....hit
2 James Hardy...miss
3 Chriss Ellis....miss
2009
1 Aaron Maybin....miss
1 Eric Wood....hit
2 Jarius Byrd....hit
2 Andy Levitre...hit
2010....too early to tell
30 picks.....18 hits...

You can dance around this all you want, but I think the proof speaks for itself. AGAIN...to REPEAT....I am not saying that pats don't draft well...nor that so and so wasn't a good pick....what I am saying is that, based on the actual picks.....how can you argue that you guys did THAT much better than us...?

Question....why do you come here anyway? I mean...clearly you are a pats fan...why spend time on a Bills message board? Just curious.....
In all fairness, how the hell can you call guys like Kelsay, Wire, Denny and Crowell hits? Just because they played some games for us or had an average season or two. Wire and Crowell are nobodies and Kelsay and Denney are just average players.

You can't even count guys like McGahee and Lynch as hits. They were such great hits we traded them a few years afterwards for lower round picks. At least with McGahee we got two 3rd round picks out it. They are average players at best.

Then guys like Mckelvin and others. What the heck has McKelvin ever done for us? He's in his 4th season and still isn't a starter for us after being a Top 10 pick. And how is Parrish a hit? What great seasons has he ever had?

How is Whitner considered a hit? He was a safety drafted in the TOP 10. I can see if he was a 2nd round pick maybe. He definitely never played like a top 10 drafted safety.

Most of your hits are either average role players that are on every NFL teams, players that started for us but didn't live up to expectations or depth/one year wonders that had an average season.

How you can compare them the same as hits on the Pats list to guys like Seymour and others is just funny. I'm a Bills fan too but be realistic about it.

[psubills62]

i'm still predicting 4 wins for this team if you read my "one fan's view" on the main page.

but there is a plan that i see and i can remotely buy at this point. I buy that these defensive starters missing a real good OLB at this point, has what it takes to be competitive. it requires health because other than DL,i don't think we have depth to handle injuries.

I think chan can scheme his way into a win or two on his own with this grouping. I didn't think evans was all that. i don't think his loss will be that meaninful. we were 4-12 with him. I was bummed we got 4th rounder for him.

I can kind of buy not getting free agents to build the team. we watched them try to do that before and it didn't work.

I always though jauron was over performing with his 7-9 squads. i think the bills suck this year but will be under acheivers and it'll look quite promising for next year.
That's reasonable. I have to admit, I'd be a little surprised to only see 4 wins given some of the teams on our schedule, but it's within 2 games of my estimate (6-10).

Agree with all your other comments.

[sam5767]

In all fairness, how the hell can you call guys like Kelsay, Wire, Denny and Crowell hits? Just because they played some games for us or had an average season or two. Wire and Crowell are nobodies and Kelsay and Denney are just average players.

You can't even count guys like McGahee and Lynch as hits. They were such great hits we traded them a few years afterwards for lower round picks. At least with McGahee we got two 3rd round picks out it. They are average players at best.

Then guys like Mckelvin and others. What the heck has McKelvin ever done for us? He's in his 4th season and still isn't a starter for us after being a Top 10 pick. And how is Parrish a hit? What great seasons has he ever had?

How is Whitner considered a hit? He was a safety drafted in the TOP 10. I can see if he was a 2nd round pick maybe. He definitely never played like a top 10 drafted safety.

Most of your hits are either average role players that are on every NFL teams, players that started for us but didn't live up to expectations or depth/one year wonders that had an average season.

How you can compare them the same as hits on the Pats list to guys like Seymour and others is just funny. I'm a Bills fan too but be realistic about it.

Crowell was 3rd round pick who came in after Spikes got hurt and played well as a starter...until he got injured himself. Magahee and Lynch both were 1000 yard rushers...both were traded because they either wanted out or had off field issues, not because of talent....and we got decent picks in return for each...both went on to play roles with next team. Whitner was in top 5 in tackles last season....has been starter since he was drafted...and regarded by many as top 10 saftey...he just doesnt get int's...

Question: If we had Tom Brady these past 10 years....and pats had TE, JP and the other collection of misfit QB's, and all of the draft picks remained the same....would we even be having this discussion?

[k-oneputt]

Whitner is a top -10 safety ? He wasn't even better then G. Wilson.

[Novacane]

How did this thread turn into a pissing match with a Pats fan about thier drafting?