When did the Bills officially kill your optimism about the team?

[BillsOverDolphins]

Let me preface this by saying I'll always be a Bills fan (like all ya'll), but over the years I've become a bitter pessimist about the team--for good reason.

What moment made you snap and turn to the darkside?

For me, it was 2004 when we lost to the 3rd string Steelers at home, when a win would've put us in the playoffs. I was already numb by the time the 2008 collapse came around.

[dannyek71]

2005 season I think.

[EDS]

I think Ralph gave up after TD and Greg Williams did not work out. Ralph has not invested in a proper front office since and the results speak for themselves.

[BlackMetalNinja]

I was holding on strong until after the 2009 season. Since then, I've been much more negative... Well, actually, I'll take that back. I've been much more indifferent. I just don't have the enthusiasm about the team that I used to.

[Jan Reimers]

I've been a loyal fan from the first game in 1960. I have become increasingly dissatisfied over the last 11 bleak seasons, but it took me until the Evans' trade to realize just how incredibly F'ed up this organization is.

[OpIv37]

Let me preface this by saying I'll always be a Bills fan (like all ya'll), but over the years I've become a bitter pessimist about the team--for good reason.

What moment made you snap and turn to the darkside?

For me, it was 2004 when we lost to the 3rd string Steelers at home, when a win would've put us in the playoffs. I was already numb by the time the 2008 collapse came around.

For me, it was 2005 when we **** the bed after an encouraging end to 2004 (minus that Steelers game). But the real dagger was the Dallas loss on MNF in '07. Ever since that moment, losses just seem so inevitable.

[ddaryl]

I renew my optimism every off season..

I like the Nix plan of building the majority of this team via draft and grooming our own and I like a lot of what I see right now. I like the Nix plan of not bringing in bloated salary demands of mediocre FA's that serve no purpose but to keep us entrenched in mediocrity.

you're not going to erase 10+ years of pathetic pre-Nix front office moves that brought us to the point where we are now.. Trying to rebuild a franchise that has seen numerous 1st rd picks wasted by those FO personnel that could of been and should of been making impacts on this team NOW...

all that being said.. depth at a few positions is weak, and the OL definitely needs to be upgraded. However bringing in marginal aging vets isn't the answer... neither is bringing in troubled players who have chronic issues...

if this team looks like crap early in the season then I will start tuning them out, tivo games and decide afterwards if I really want to watch them and will start following the Sabres more and wait till next year yet again.. rinse and repeat

the moment I stop being a Bills fan is when the Buffalo no longer proceeds Bills.. until then I start every year optimistic

[OpIv37]

the moment I stop being a Bills fan is when the Buffalo no longer proceeds Bills.. until then I start every year optimistic

being a fan has nothing to do with being optimistic.

[wmoz11]

I'm still optimistic when a new season starts, but much, much less so ever since the 2004 game vs the Steelers. I had the misfortune of being at that game with my best friend who happens to be a Steelers fan.

[BillsOverDolphins]

I'm still optimistic when a new season starts, but much, much less so ever since the 2004 game vs the Steelers. I had the misfortune of being at that game with my best friend who happens to be a Steelers fan.

ouch...If I was in your shoes I'd probably be on non-speaking terms with your friend now

[The King]

The decision to go with Losman over Bledsoe.

[bf1]

2009 offseason when they did absolutely nothing in free agency except Owens at the last minute. Then Buddy Nix's company line of "build through the draft" as an excuse to be cheap in free agency.

[Mski]

I'm still optimistic when a new season starts, but much, much less so ever since the 2004 game vs the Steelers. I had the misfortune of being at that game with my best friend who happens to be a Steelers fan.that was one of the years we had season tickets, and there was a group of steelers fans, that i used to work with, that had season tickets the row infrot of us. i didnt hear the end of that for months:ill:

[TrEd FTW]

2008 collapse. I care so much less now than I did then.

[wmoz11]

that was one of the years we had season tickets, and there was a group of steelers fans, that i used to work with, that had season tickets the row infrot of us. i didnt hear the end of that for months:ill:

I still hear about it. At least you guys are surrounded by Bills fans most of the time. I know about 3 and everyone else loves the Eagles or Steelers. I've been verbally abused my whole life about this damn team.

Luckily when my friend sarcastically asked me what stud we'd draft with that 4th we got for Evans I told him probably someone similar to what the Steelers drafted for the pick they got for Holmes, SB MVP.

Didn't hear back.

[BillsOverDolphins]

I still hear about it. At least you guys are surrounded by Bills fans most of the time. I know about 3 and everyone else loves the Eagles or Steelers. I've been verbally abused my whole life about this damn team.

Luckily when my friend sarcastically asked me what stud we'd draft with that 4th we got for Evans I told him probably someone similar to what the Steelers drafted for the pick they got for Holmes, SB MVP.

Didn't hear back.

I lived in Pittsburgh for a couple years recently, so I know your pain.

[trapezeus]

deciding that since we resigned jauron in the early part of the season that we had to roll with him in 2009. that was unforgivable. That was a cheap move. that was willing to throw away a season because a bad decision was made. and then the firing of the OC and release of walker days before the season was just added, "they have no plan and are the keystone cops."

And the thing now is that i've become so accustomed to bad decisions and horrible results, that somehow i kind of crave it. When we were beating the patriots during that night game, i literally remember thinking, "oh i didn't want to beat the pats in foxborough." and the second mckelvin fumbled i was like, "holy ****, what is wrong with me."

As for our current FO, i think getting brandon, modrak and jauron away from the draft room was addition by subtraction. Who knows if nix is much better, but that GM by committee was terrible. it's not acceptable to have this message board room calling out shots that make more sense they make over a 3-5 year span.

I do buy into building through the draft. These two drafts on paper could be good. we'll know a lot by November on where we are. if we aren't moving forward, then ralph let this team go beyond the point of fixing.

the last hire of gailey was pretty much the only qualified guy willing to take the gig. the GM hire was pretty much the same thing. if these two fail, there is no one to do the job until ralph is gone.

[bf1]

Things turned too when friends stopped talking smack to me and legitimately started to feel sorry for me. I get sympathy from Jets fans.

[psubills62]

I still hear about it. At least you guys are surrounded by Bills fans most of the time. I know about 3 and everyone else loves the Eagles or Steelers. I've been verbally abused my whole life about this damn team.

Luckily when my friend sarcastically asked me what stud we'd draft with that 4th we got for Evans I told him probably someone similar to what the Steelers drafted for the pick they got for Holmes, SB MVP.

Didn't hear back.
Nice comeback.

I'm sorry to hear that you've got Steeler fan friends. They are crazy and mostly obnoxious beyond belief.

[The King]

I lived in Pittsburgh for a couple years recently, so I know your pain.

Try being in Boston.

[Mski]

Try being in Boston.i feel your pain, i dont know how i could deal with all those obnoxious red sux fans

[Mr. Pink]

The decision to go with Losman over Bledsoe.


Out of all decisions in the playoff drought this is easily the worst decision the franchise has made.

[BertSquirtgum]

The official date and the last straw was august 12th 2011, when they traded evans. No more mr. positive hurkeynuts. it's obvious cheap old **** ralph does not want to win.

[BLeonard]

This one's pretty easy for me... December 31, 2008. 8:43AM EST

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3800733



BUFFALO, N.Y. -- Bills coach Dick Jauron will return next season after team owner Ralph Wilson decided a shake up wasn't necessary despite a third consecutive 7-9 finish that left unhappy fans demanding change.




Bills defensive end and co-captain Chris Kelsay said he is "ecstatic" that Jauron is still the coach.




Levy stepped down following the 2007 season, citing a lack of interest in keeping a front-office job, while also expressing confidence that he had helped steer the Bills in the right direction.


Once I finished reading this article, I turned to my wife and said "No more Bills stuff... No more jerseys, no more T-shirts, no more hats... Hell, I won't even buy a Buffalo Bills pen, until this team can prove to me that they are committed to winning. Keeping Jauron shows me that they are happy with status quo and that's unacceptable."

For the record, I have yet to buy anything Buffalo Bills related following that day.

-Bill

[Dr. Lecter]

Out of all decisions in the playoff drought this is easily the worst decision the franchise has made.
Not really.

The worst decision and the moment that killed my enthusiasm - drafting Aaron ****ing Maybin.

[BillsOverDolphins]

I almost forgot how many bad memories we have to choose from....(sigh)

[Mr. Pink]

Not really.

The worst decision and the moment that killed my enthusiasm - drafting Aaron ****ing Maybin.


Instead of building upon the momentum they had and being on the verge of a playoff team they tore it all down and inserted a bum in at QB over a borderline HOFer.

Easy choice.

[Philagape]

Hiring Marv Levy to be the GM in 2006. That made it clear that Ralph didn't want to live in the modern NFL and just wanted to cower in his cocoon of "his" people.

[Dr. Lecter]

Instead of building upon the momentum they had and being on the verge of a playoff team they tore it all down and inserted a bum in at QB over a borderline HOFer.

Easy choice.


Look at the last half of that season. They had momentum early, but were fading late.

And yes, Losman was a bum. What success did Bledsoe have after Buffalo?

He is (by far) the Bills best QB since Kelly. But he was also approaching the end of his career. And the momentum you speak of did not really exist.

[AussieGirl]

They didn't

[Mr. Pink]

Look at the last half of that season. They had momentum early, but were fading late.

And yes, Losman was a bum. What success did Bledsoe have after Buffalo?

He is (by far) the Bills best QB since Kelly. But he was also approaching the end of his career. And the momentum you speak of did not really exist.


The Bills won 6 straight heading into that meeting with Pittsburgh and Bledsoe went out and had an even better year in 05 for the Cowboys then he did for the Bills in 04.

[Philagape]

The Bills won 6 straight heading into that meeting with Pittsburgh and Bledsoe went out and had an even better year in 05 for the Cowboys then he did for the Bills in 04.

He went 9-7 both years (the 2004 Bills did that well in spite of him, and the 2005 Cowboys were a better team). That was his ceiling. He was done as a guy who could lead a team to the playoffs, and in just one more year he was done, period. He would have done nothing more in Buffalo.

[BillsOverDolphins]

They didn't

Give it time.

[trapezeus]

bledsoe beat up on weak teams and buckled when the game was on the line against a decent team but their back-ups.

bledsoe's failures were very jauron-ian. same mistakes over and over and no commitment to change. i didn't mind they started JP over bledsoe. i just wish losman wasn't the guy we had. imagine if the steelers didn't screw us and we had roethlisberger. i think we would have ended up very happy with the decision to make the change.

[justasportsfan]

eternal optimist .See avatar

[Bill Cody]

You have to turn the page. Really. It's not like we forget but I don't get the point of sitting around mulling/whining about past failures, completely unproductive. It comes down to this for me- if Buddy Nix can draft talent we'll get better. Maybe not as fast as we'd like or maybe we should but we will get better.

[mayotm]

I'm optimistic all off season. Then after week 1, the optimism goes away for 15 more weeks. It's usually back around March and the cycle continues.

[Extremebillsfan247]

Let me preface this by saying I'll always be a Bills fan (like all ya'll), but over the years I've become a bitter pessimist about the team--for good reason.

What moment made you snap and turn to the darkside?

For me, it was 2004 when we lost to the 3rd string Steelers at home, when a win would've put us in the playoffs. I was already numb by the time the 2008 collapse came around.

Back in the mid-1980s I didn't think this team would ever have a good year again. There was a stretch I think between '84 and '86 seasons where we only won a handful of games. It was even worse then, than things are now. I've already been where a lot of the younger generation of Bills fans are now in viewpoint towards this team. But, what I've learned in my years is that the bad times always pass. The NFL is a game where things happen in cycles. The Bills will eventually climb out of the slump of losing seasons and non playoff teams.

The one thing I hope for is that when they eventually do climb up from the bottom of the division, that the next time they get it right, and win the big one. As far as optimism is concerned, I've seen worse Bills teams, but I've also seen better. There is a strong young nucleus in place here which gives me reason for optimism leaning towards the positive. I think we are starting to see glimpses of a turn around. It may not be happening as quickly as some may like. But, I've always been an advocate for taking your time and doing it right as opposed to rushing it to beat the proverbial clock. JMO Go Bills

[Oaf]

Marv leaving with a remark "expressing confidence that he had helped steer the Bills in the right direction" kinda steams me up for some reason.

[Cntrygal]

Things turned too when friends stopped talking smack to me and legitimately started to feel sorry for me. I get sympathy from Jets fans.


I get sympathy from the local Green Bay and Chicago fans. :sigh: They've even cheered when the Bills did something right....... :sigh:

[TheBrownBear]

The Jauron hiring.

That was the moment I knew we were committed to losing. I'm a lifelong Bills fan, but my enthusiasm and support have been lukewarm at best since that point. I always made it a priority to get back to Buffalo for at least one home game a year up to that point. But since then, the only game I've been to was the Bengals preseason game last year - and that was only because my nephew had an extra ticket.

[better days]

Nice comeback.

I'm sorry to hear that you've got Steeler fan friends. They are crazy and mostly obnoxious beyond belief.

I totally disagree with this post. Steeler fans are very similar to Bills fans IMO. Very passionate about their team, but a fun loving group & not like Pats* fans or Eagles fans that want to start **** all the time.

[Typ0]

It was a long time coming and I held out hope even through a lot of bad behavior...but when RW came out and told a joke with no punch line, didn't know what day it was, and then proceeded to sing the song of how great a coach Moolarkey was so he was rehired that was it for me...even MM thought he was nuts LMAO.

[Bert102176]

I was fed up when we had Peerless and Eric and instead of signing Peerless we trade him away and do nothing with the pic we got for him, year in and year out we let good players leave with out spending money to keep them, Pat Williams, nate clements, Antoine Winfield, London Fletcher, Jonus jennings, and our drafts over the years in the first round this team year after year is just pathetic doesn't matter who we have as a coaching staff if the front office and Ralph Wilson being cheap ignorant bastards this team will never do anything.

[sam5767]

Try being in Boston.

Yeah....Pats fans are the worst.....

I'll always be a fan.....and yes these last 10 years have been tough.....lots of bad memories....the 03 season, starting out 2-0 and ending 6-10, depsite having one of the best D's in league....the Monday night debacle against the Cowdung.....the multiple blown chances against pats (Halloween 05, 06 season opener, 09 opener)....Jauron....Jauron getting extension....Jauron picking Maybin....losing to Steelers 3rd stringers and blowing chance at playoffs....and so forth...

There were some good memories too....beating pats 31-0 in 03 opener....firing Jauron.....beating pats 31-0 in 03 opener....firing Jauron....LOL

But still.....come Sunday week 1.....I'll be watching with nervous anticipation....I'll get excited when we make a big play.....I'll throw something when we don't....and remain forever hopeful that this is the year we turn it around......like Linus in the pumpkin patch, waiting for the Great Pumpkin....LOL

Why you ask..? Because I'm a Bills fan. Through think or thin....Like a great man once said..."When it's too tough for them....it's just right for us!"

Or something like that...LOL

GOOOOOOOO BUFFALOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bert102176]

I will always love this team asall of you, It's just so frustrating

[BillsOverDolphins]

It's just so frustrating

Eternally.

[SquishDaFish]

Ive been getting more and more irritated but optimism has been growing since Chan and Nix took over. Was loving the moves up until after the CBA agreement was reached and the trading of Evans(which I would of been fine with IF we got more)

Im acc for the first time in my life entertaining the thoughts of hopping off the wagon and either choosing a new team other then the Wastriots or Fish. Im close to giving up but will give it a season of real games. : (

[BillsOverDolphins]

Im acc for the first time in my life entertaining the thoughts of hopping off the wagon and either choosing a new team other then the Wastriots or Fish. Im close to giving up but will give it a season of real games. : (


Think of all the heartbreak you'll be missing out on...

[BertSquirtgum]

I am the very person GQ magazine wrote about when they said Buffalo is one of the worst dressed cities in America. I wear my Bills apparel all year long.

[Romes]

2009 offseason when they did absolutely nothing in free agency except Owens at the last minute. Then Buddy Nix's company line of "build through the draft" as an excuse to be cheap in free agency.

Agreed. For me the 2008 collapse followed by the 2009 offseason killed it.

[psubills62]

I totally disagree with this post. Steeler fans are very similar to Bills fans IMO. Very passionate about their team, but a fun loving group & not like Pats* fans or Eagles fans that want to start **** all the time.
Fun-loving? I call BS. I spent four years among Pittsburgh fans in college, my wife lived around them her whole life and hates the Steelers because of the fans. They're obnoxious.

[TacklingDummy]

The decision to go with Losman over Bledsoe.

Johnson over Flutie in the playoff game against Tenn. for me.

[Romes]

Johnson over Flutie in the playoff game against Tenn. for me.

I remember the Johnson v Flutie debates :ill:

Sad to think now those were the good days....

[Thurmal]

I totally disagree with this post. Steeler fans are very similar to Bills fans IMO. Very passionate about their team, but a fun loving group & not like Pats* fans or Eagles fans that want to start **** all the time.

You do not know enough Steeler fans. They are delusional a-holes, straight up. I heard several Steelers fans last year at a bar arguing with a Ravens fan, saying that Greg Lloyd was a better LB than Ray Lewis. The ones that weren't wearing Rapelisberger jerseys were rocking Kordell Stewart and Carnell Lake jerseys. Total rednecks.

[Ingtar33]

when Donahoe chose Moulds over Wiley. I know ultimately in the long run that looks like a smart move, as Wiley had a few injury plagued seasons then dropped out of the league afterwords. But that was the moment i knew we were screwed. To take a WR over a 10+ sack DE is a travesty.

my hunch was correct as Donahoe proved he always valued skill positions over the lines, something that would come back to kill us time and time again as long as he was here.

[Thurmal]

Johnson over Flutie in the playoff game against Tenn. for me.

That was one of the Bills' few good decisions in the past 15 years. Everyone seems to forget that Rob Johnson went against the No. 1 defense on the road, in the playoffs, and won the game with a gutsy last-second drive.

Flutie starts, we're down by double digits at that point.

[kishoph]

It hasn't happen yet, I've been a fan since about 1970 When I fell in love with this team, wins were rare, yet I just loved having a home town team to root for. Throughout the 70's I don't think the BILLS ever won more than 9 games, yet my fondness grew. The early 80's were better, but then in the mid 80's the BILLS won 8 games in 3 seasons, finally giving way to the late 80's early 90's when the BILLS became a Super team. On to the past 10 years or so where things have been in decline, my enthusiasm still is there. About 3 years ago, when DJ was coach and TRENT was the QB, things seemed pretty crappy, but I like the way that the team is heading under BUDDY and CHAN. I'm not happy with some of the moves made, but I can't abandon my optimism that things will turn around. I am to the true sense of the word, a fanatic: : marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion

[YardRat]

My optimism has been beat up at times through out my 40+seasons, but it isn't dead yet.

[Dr. Lecter]

when Donahoe chose Moulds over Wiley. I know ultimately in the long run that looks like a smart move, as Wiley had a few injury plagued seasons then dropped out of the league afterwords. But that was the moment i knew we were screwed. To take a WR over a 10+ sack DE is a travesty.

my hunch was correct as Donahoe proved he always valued skill positions over the lines, something that would come back to kill us time and time again as long as he was here.


When he was with the Bills his sack totals (per season) were 0, 3.5, 5, and 10.5. So, while he was technically a 10+ sack DE it is hardly like he was a dominant pass rusher.

You are better than using stats like that to tell a half truth and make it sound like was a 10+ sack guy every year.

[TacklingDummy]

That was one of the Bills' few good decisions in the past 15 years. Everyone seems to forget that Rob Johnson went against the No. 1 defense on the road, in the playoffs, and won the game with a gutsy last-second drive.

Flutie starts, we're down by double digits at that point.


Disagreed.

Johnson did basically nothing, except for 1 drive, but hand Tenn. that game.
131 yards passing, sacked 6 times, 1 of those for a saftey, which set up another easy 7 points. That's 9 points.

I truly believe if Flutie started that game the Bills would have been facing the Rams in the Super Bowl.

[sam5767]

Disagreed.

Johnson did basically nothing, except for 1 drive, but hand Tenn. that game.
131 yards passing, sacked 6 times, 1 of those for a saftey, which set up another eater 7 points. That's 9 points.

I truly believe if Flutie started that game the Bills would have been facing the Rams in the Super Bowl.

I remember feeling that Johnson should have replaced Flutie earlier in the season...Flutie seemed to have hit a wall that season (how many 9-6 games did we win?) ......but we didn't.....so with that being said, I think it was a terrible decision to replace Flutie for that game....you rolled with him all season long, you roll with him in playoffs.

In the end though, Johnson did lead us on what appeared to be the game winning drive. I'm not sure how much better Flutie would have played....

And I don't like the way Flutie handled it afterwards.....kinda tossing Johnson under the bus like the decision to make the change was Johnson's....I was never that big on Rob Johnson, but I think he got somewhat of a raw deal in the aftermath of that......

[TacklingDummy]

I remember feeling that Johnson should have replaced Flutie earlier in the season...Flutie seemed to have hit a wall that season (how many 9-6 games did we win?)

Answer is...none

W2: Jets 17-3
W3: Eagles 26-0
W4: Miami 23-18
W5: Pitt. 24-21
W8: Ravens 13-10
W9 Skins 34-17
W10: Miami 23-3
W12: NE 17-7
W15 cards 34-21
W16 NE 13-10

[sam5767]

Answer is...none

W2: Jets 17-3
W3: Eagles 26-0
W4: Miami 23-18
W5: Pitt. 24-21
W8: Ravens 13-10
W9 Skins 34-17
W10: Miami 23-3
W12: NE 17-7
W15 cards 34-21
W16 NE 13-10

LOL...sorry....wasn't being literal. It just seemed to me that during Flutie's second season with us, our offense seems to struggle more.....I can recall many occasions during that season where our D bailed us out time and time again...defenses were trying to keep him in the pocket and I recall a lot of passes getting batted down that second year....anyway, the point I was trying to make is that, if you were going to make the change at QB, waiting until the playoffs to make the change was dumb.....either make the change earlier.....or don't make it at all.

[The Jokeman]

The whole Johnson Fluite debate as ugly as it was at least was a healthy debate whether the Bills play for the now or the future. I was one of those that wanted to play RJ because he representated a chance to be something better. As Flutie was really limited and think we saw him at his best in 1998, his first year yet I will say I almost fell for the Flutie hype until it came crashing down when he struggled in a loss to the Jets, whose D-coordinator was none other than Bill Belichick. See http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199811080nyj.htm.Also people tend to want to forget how that 1998 playoff season ended when Flutie literally dropped the ball against the Dolphins, as in fumbled the ball, and when he was sacked by Trace Armstrong.

The RJ/Flutie debate is similar to what the Eagles had last season with the Vick vs Kolb debate yet Andy Reid decided to make his decision after 1 season and Eagles management is making a hard push to win it all with Vick this year. Granted they were also smart enough to get a backup QB to develop behind him in nabbing Vince Young.

In terms when I started to lose my positive spin toward the team it was when Wade Phillips was fired and Ralph tried to fight to get his money back because he felt Wade fired himself by not letting go of Ronnie Jones.

[Bill Cody]

Oh the days when we could trash a QB that led us to the playoffs for not being good enough.

[The Jokeman]

Oh the days when we could trash a QB that led us to the playoffs for not being good enough.
and again the debate than was if the QB lead us to the playoffs or the team did. I still say it was the team. Yes Flutie played a part but I really think RJ was starting to get his grove on with his strong performances against the Rams and the 49ers that people want to ignore because it doesn't fir the Flutie is our savior timeline.

[Bill Cody]

and again the debate than was if the QB lead us to the playoffs or the team did. I still say it was the team. Yes Flutie played a part but I really think RJ was starting to get his grove on with his strong performances against the Rams and the 49ers that people want to ignore because it doesn't fir the Flutie is our savior timeline.

Flutie > RJ 6 days a week and twice on Sunday's. Unless your idea of a QB is a guy that curls into the fetal position every thrid time he drops back because he has no mobility or pocket presence. Doug Flutie didn't look the part, he didn't throw a pretty spiral, he got too many passes knocked down. But he was a gamer and a winner. Those are ingredients our current squad needs a lot more of.

It would be awesome to get back to where we can argue whether the D or the O was the reason we won/lost in the playoffs. Too much losing.

[The Jokeman]

Flutie > RJ 6 days a week and twice on Sunday's. Unless your idea of a QB is a guy that curls into the fetal position every thrid time he drops back because he has no mobility or pocket presence. Doug Flutie didn't look the part, he didn't throw a pretty spiral, he got too many passes knocked down. But he was a gamer and a winner. Those are ingredients our current squad needs a lot more of.

It would be awesome to get back to where we can argue whether the D or the O was the reason we won/lost in the playoffs. Too much losing.
I won't debate that at the time yes Flutie was a better QB than RJ. Yet who'say to say without a few games behind him RJ wouldn't have developed into something better? I mean we gave RJ 4 games basically before we elected to keep him on the bench. I understand Wade went with the hot hand but I think not letting RJ retain his starting job after he got healthy in 1998 set the franchise back at least 4 or 5 years or maybe even 13 since we're still talking about this in 2011!

[Bert102176]

Disagreed.

Johnson did basically nothing, except for 1 drive, but hand Tenn. that game.
131 yards passing, sacked 6 times, 1 of those for a saftey, which set up another easy 7 points. That's 9 points.

I truly believe if Flutie started that game the Bills would have been facing the Rams in the Super Bowl.



Damn right

[Ickybaluky]

I won't debate that at the time yes Flutie was a better QB than RJ. Yet who'say to say without a few games behind him RJ wouldn't have developed into something better?

Because he had a fatal flaw. He was an All-Pro when he wasn't hit, but he couldn't handle pressure. He had twice the talent of Flutie, but it isn't about looking the part. Flutie was one of those guys who found a way to get things done, where Johnson would fold when things got heated.

Flutie may have been limited in size, but he was a scrambler and had a record of making some big plays in critical situations. He was never going to be great, but I'd take him over a guy like Johnson, who would fold his tent when you needed him.

[k-oneputt]

Flutie won alot of games off of their defense that year which was very good.

[Ingtar33]

When he was with the Bills his sack totals (per season) were 0, 3.5, 5, and 10.5. So, while he was technically a 10+ sack DE it is hardly like he was a dominant pass rusher.

You are better than using stats like that to tell a half truth and make it sound like was a 10+ sack guy every year.

his first two seasons he was backing up Bruce Smith. that was his first year as a full time starter.

[BillsOverDolphins]

BUMP, add another nutshot to the list