Bills one of the most profitable teams in the league

[X-Era]

http://www.wgrz.com/news/article/134157/37/Forbes-Bills-Among-NFLs-Most-Profitable-Teams

"Forbes ranks the Bills ninth, with an annual operating income of $40.9 million (that's after they pay the players)."

They are ninth in operating income but 29th in total value. That screams sale ready to me.

"According to Forbes Magazine, Buffalo, and other small market teams, drive up profits by driving down their payroll."

Ralph's wallet can go **** itself, I want to win.

As I've said, Pegula is willing to sacrifice profits for wins, the Bills want to sacrifice wins for profits.

[Scumbag College]

Wow,

Thus proving "Ralph's cheap" is a valid argument.

[X-Era]

Wow,

Thus proving "Ralph's cheap" is a valid argument.All the circumstantial evidence has been there and has been charted by some of us for years. Had TD never made a big splurge on Dockery and Walker, there really would be no doubt.

But, I still don't believe they consciously make an effort to lose. They make an effort to maximize profits. But in their minds, they don't see it as maximizing profits at the direct expense of the product.

And just so were clear, I am not saying I want to just start spending stupid money to any player with a heart beat. I'm saying there is zero reason not to be upgrading the talent on this roster. And to me that means if you know you are sub-par and have weaknesses that you don't have a proven answer for, go get someone better. We didn't do enough of that in this years FA.

Again, the Bills can't make 25 mill in profits for a year? I mean if the Bills operate with a fixed budget that nets them 40 mill in profits, cutting the profits to 25 mill would kill them? That would mean 15 more mill in additional spending for players.

And it's illogical to think that extending our own is cutting into that 40 mill profit. They are doing it and have been doing that for years... It's already planned. The 40 mill profit includes extensions to players.

It's pretty much a direct situation. When they earn 40 mill each year instead of 25 mill, they didn't get 15 mill in upgrades to the roster.

The cap is not the issue, the money being available in not the issue, the issue is no interest in spending it.

[Don't Panic]

Damn. Hard to argue with those numbers. Just waiting for nature to take it's course I suppose...

[X-Era]

One more thing guys. I am excited for the season and think we may overachieve. The timing isn't great on this article considering the seasons about to kick off, but I can't control that obviously. Yes, I have a philosophical issue with the way the Bills operate. But, I still am a fan and look forward to the season.

[Cleve]

Yep, the Buffalo Bills are a cash cow, even without winning games. Why the hell would anyone move this team out of Buffalo? I've been saying for years that isn't going to happen - where could you move the team to make more money?

That's been the sword that skinflint "Hall of Fame" owner Ralph Wilson Jr. has been holding over WNY for years, basically extorting taxpayer money from us to pay for stadium improvements while lining his own billionaire pockets, and pulling vanity BS like naming a taxpayer funded stadium after himself because of his own arrogance and colossal personal ego.

In the meantime, he gets even cheaper, spends under the salary cap, and doesn't even care about winning.

[Jan Reimers]

What you have to think about, from the standpoint of a sale, is that the Bills might only be able to make this kind of profit in Buffalo.

Much of their profitability comes from a sweetheart stadium lease arrangement, and servicing no debt. Some comes from the CBA's large/small market revenue sharing, and some from our savings on player salaries.

If the Bills were to sell and move (most likely to a large market), almost all of these advantages would go away. While there would be more revenue, there would also be a huge amount of new debt, and no subsidies as a small market team. They would almost certainly need to spend to the cap to capture the new fan base. And they would either have to build a new stadium - a tremendous financial burden - or play in a publicly financed stadium which is not likely to give them a free ride like they have through Erie County.

Who knows if profits would be anywhere near what they are in Buffalo?

[bf1]

So much for crying poverty

http://www.wgrz.com/news/article/134157/37/Forbes-Bills-Among-NFLs-Most-Profitable-Teams

[TacklingDummy]

Wow,

Thus proving "Ralph's cheap" is a valid argument.
Cheap or a smart businessman?

[PromoTheRobot]

The theory about setting up for a sale is silly. The Bills value is not linked to the profit they make. It's linked to the fact they are one of only 32 NFL franchises that rarely go up for auction. You think AEG would balk at buying the Bills over a few piddly contacts? If there are more than two bidders for the Bills expect the purchase price to be well over a billion dollars.

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

The good news for everyone who finds this situation unbearable is the Bills will be gone soon enough, never to depress you again. Can't wait.

As for Pegula and the Sabres, he's no fool. The money it takes to build a winner in the NHL is chump change compared to the NFL. And when the Bills leave town, the Sabres become the cash cow. Everything Pegula has spent so far is just interest off his $3B fortune.

PTR

[THRILLHO]

If the Bills are making 40 million a year, why would the new owner change anything? Obviously you might get an owner that would care about winning more than a bigger profit every year, but at the same time this might attract an owner that would say: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and just keep things as they are. Keep profiting that 40 million every year.

[PromoTheRobot]

If the Bills are making 40 million a year, why would the new owner change anything? Obviously you might get an owner that would care about winning more than a bigger profit every year, but at the same time this might attract an owner that would say: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and just keep things as they are. Keep profiting that 40 million every year.

Why? Because $40M is nothing when you are spending over a billion dollars for a franchise. Do you know $40M dollars is? 4% of a billion! You can buy a CD and get that.

You are also forgetting about debt service. The Bills make $40M in profit because Ralph has no debt on the team. If you had to borrow a couple hundred million you would be swimming in red ink. Besides, I thought this whole *****fest was about Ralph not spending enough money? Would we want a new owner to keep making $40M??

The value of an NFL franchise is all the stuff you can sell around it. Sponsorships, merchandising, real estate development, etc would be HUGE in Los Angeles. Don't kid yourself. The NFL does not care that 2 teams left before. They have been drooling over L.A. for decades.

PTR

[Scumbag College]

Cheap or a smart businessman?

They're one and the same.

Actually this article shows that the Bills are a total microcosm of the world today. Corners are cut, inferior products, work conditions, staffing, etc. are the norm and 99% of the world around them suffers; while a rich, old codger sits and cries poor as he racks up billions on the backs of the common man.

[Cleve]

Why? Because $40M is nothing when you are spending over a billion dollars for a franchise. Do you know $40M dollars is? 4% of a billion! You can buy a CD and get that.

You are also forgetting about debt service. The Bills make $40M in profit because Ralph has no debt on the team. If you had to borrow a couple hundred million you would be swimming in red ink. Besides, I thought this whole *****fest was about Ralph not spending enough money? Would we want a new owner to keep making $40M??

The value of an NFL franchise is all the stuff you can sell around it. Sponsorships, merchandising, real estate development, etc would be HUGE in Los Angeles. Don't kid yourself. The NFL does not care that 2 teams left before. They have been drooling over L.A. for decades.

PTR

It seems to me that there's at least 23 other less profitable teams that should have to worry about relocation to LA before the Buffalo Bills do.

[Extremebillsfan247]

http://www.wgrz.com/news/article/134157/37/Forbes-Bills-Among-NFLs-Most-Profitable-Teams

"Forbes ranks the Bills ninth, with an annual operating income of $40.9 million (that's after they pay the players)."

They are ninth in operating income but 29th in total value. That screams sale ready to me.

"According to Forbes Magazine, Buffalo, and other small market teams, drive up profits by driving down their payroll."

Ralph's wallet can go **** itself, I want to win.

As I've said, Pegula is willing to sacrifice profits for wins, the Bills want to sacrifice wins for profits.Funny how both statistics come from Forbes Magazine. It almost reads like an advertisement to the billionaire boys club. JMO

[X-Era]

Cheap or a smart businessman?I was waiting for that one.

Yes it's smart from a business standpoint. However, the business is to win. The product is a team that wins... Or at least it should be.

The Bills have no reason to change their product. People are still buying it... the profit is still there. If the profit starts to disappear, they will have to make changes to the product to get back to making profits.

What they are doing is winning at selling the fans an inferior product.

[X-Era]

If the Bills are making 40 million a year, why would the new owner change anything? Obviously you might get an owner that would care about winning more than a bigger profit every year, but at the same time this might attract an owner that would say: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and just keep things as they are. Keep profiting that 40 million every year.Because the new owner is smart enough to realize if he invests half of those profits over say 5 years, he may end up making double... 80 instead of 40. 5 years of 20 mill in profits, with the other 20 mill going to extensions and upgrades... and then in year 5, he rakes in double. That's an extreme version and it wouldn't take that... I'm trying to just make the point.

A playoff or SB team will bring in way more money than the current team.

[Billz_fan]

Just keep feeding the old fart your money folks. He loves it and he knows he can count on you to give it to him :laughter:

Meanwhile you get a roster of no names with a few bright lights sprinkled in just to keep you excited enough to keep spending.

I will guarantee you that if Marcell Dareus plays to his potential and becomes a big star when his contract is up he will be gone. If Ralph is still alive and running the team that is. No one will get a huge contract from this organization anymore until it changes hands.

[X-Era]

Funny how both statistics come from Forbes Magazine. It almost reads like an advertisement to the billionaire boys club. JMOThat's because the data came from Forbes, not the analysis.

[X-Era]

Just keep feeding the old fart your money folks. He loves it and he knows he can count on you to give it to him :laughter:

Meanwhile you get a roster of no names with a few bright lights sprinkled in just to keep you excited enough to keep spending.

I will guarantee you that if Marcell Dareus plays to his potential and becomes a big star when his contract is up he will be gone. If Ralph is still alive and running the team that is. No one will get a huge contract from this organization anymore until it changes hands.Big worry for me with Stevie...

[Cleve]

Right now, we unfortunately have a marketing guy/bean-counter (Brandon) running the team. This guy probably runs focus groups and does scientific polling/surveying to see just how little can be spent on the team to make it competitive without hurting income too much.

They probably have already determined that a 6-10 or 7-9 team is the target - this caliber of team generates the most income for the least amount of expenditure. It's probably a point on a graph of the above metrics where the two lines cross.

It might lose Ralph Wilson a million or two a year in profit to build a playoff caliber team. Yes, fan revenues would rise, but so would costs. What this really confirms is that Wilson could give a damn about winning, and that all of his crocodile tears the last couple years about wanting to give WNY a winning team are totally phoney.

What a joke this guy is as a so-called "Hall of Fame" owner. He should be in the "HOF" of cheap chiselers/hustlers/accountants maybe, but not in the same company as owners that have built quality, winning organizations.

We should insist the Stadium either re-named to "Western NY Taxpayers Arena" or similar and get the "Wilson" out of it.

[Billz_fan]

Big worry for me with Stevie...

Yeah he is another one. He is gonna want to get paid and I don't see Steve being to patient about it either. I forsee him leaving to and the fan base will villainize him for being greedy and not worth the money etc etc etc.

[Mike]

As a result of revenue sharing a few teams like the Bills and Bangles, for example, have used the system for their advantage. When the Big Market Owners go against revenue sharing of jersey sales, parking, concession stands, etc... I stand by them in many respects. No matter how much you hate Jerry jones, or Robert Kraft, etc... these guys consistently do the best they can to put the best possible talent and team on the field. They spend their money! They win games and championships and as a result their Fan Base and Brand name Grow. The Cowboys, Steelers, Pats, Packers, have Fans all of the US as a result of their winning culture. Guys like Ralph make a big Profit at the expense of their team. They hire cheap labour and turn in turd like results and in a small market are in the Top 10 most profitable!

[Mike]

Green Bay, Pittsburg, and even Dallas are small to mid sized cities. Look at the population of Dallas: 2 million, Pittsburg 300K, Green Bay 100K, Western New York: 1million....
..... Also like Dallas, Pittsburg, Green Bay, Buffalo could find a better way to pull in fans from Pennsylvania, Rochester, Syracuse, Ontario, Toronto, etc,,,,
The Best way to Pull Fans from neighboring cities is to WIN! By winning the Cowboys became the Team for the entire state of Texas! By winning championship after championship, after championship the Cowboys became Americas Team... Can you image the revenue if the Bills became Americas Team??? Can you imagine how pissed Ralph would be if he had to give a big chunk of those revenues to the Bangles owner, who does not even try to win? Instead, he underpays and makes a profit... would you be pissed if you were in their shoes?

[Mike]

Every Business's Sales Price is linked to the Profits they make! When buying or selling a biz, you look at cash flow, and the Bills being in the Top 10 in Profits while being 29 in Value compared to other teams means that the Bills are a Huge Bargain! They will be very easy to sell, and will go over the Forbes evaluation. There might be a number of buyers that drive up the price.

lastly, what hold the Bills back is the perception of the 'small market'. Buffalo alone is about 200k people and the 78th largest city in the US population wise. The whole Buffalo metro area is less than 1million. Now compare that to LA which has a population nearing 14million! Or Chicago at about 10million. You get the Picture.

The trump card in all of this, and as a result of their payroll being so cheap, they are perfect for a sale. A new owner can come in buy them for less, and not worry about having this huge payroll to pay right away. They can focus their money on moving the team to a better market and then improving them. instead of cash going to players, they are going towards a move -thus making the move almost free compared to buying another team with higher payroll and moving them. From a cash flow point of view, this is the perfect scenario for a new owner who wants the option of moving the team.

[Mike]

Lastly, Bills made more money than the Jets, Steelers, Packers, and 3x more money than the Dolphins all while putting a loosing product on the field. All of this as a result of revenue sharing. I for one am very glad about the Spending Floor!

[X-Era]

As a result of revenue sharing a few teams like the Bills and Bangles, for example, have used the system for their advantage. When the Big Market Owners go against revenue sharing of jersey sales, parking, concession stands, etc... I stand by them in many respects. No matter how much you hate Jerry jones, or Robert Kraft, etc... these guys consistently do the best they can to put the best possible talent and team on the field. They spend their money! They win games and championships and as a result their Fan Base and Brand name Grow. The Cowboys, Steelers, Pats, Packers, have Fans all of the US as a result of their winning culture. Guys like Ralph make a big Profit at the expense of their team. They hire cheap labour and turn in turd like results and in a small market are in the Top 10 most profitable!Much of what you said is true.

I don't hate their shrewd philosophy and I don't want a Dan Snyder like approach. But for this team to become good it has a given amount of upgrades which will cost a given amount of money.

The OL needs solid and proven players, 2, maybe 3 plus extensions for the remaining 2 or 3. That means 5 mill per times 2 or 3 for a 15 mill expense total. That's what it will likely cost maximum. I would be fine with 2 FA's and a draftee or even 1 FA and 2 draftees who step up. It could be done for as little as 5 mill per and 2 rookie contracts. As far as extensions, Wood will get top 10 C pay... That's going to mean 5 or 6 mill. Levitre can probably be had for 4-5 mill per. So, a quality OL, which assumes we sign quality players, costs us 20-25 mill per. That should be the target. This may mean as much as 7 or 8 mill in new money.

Evans money went right back in our pocket so extending Stevie to the 7 or 8 mill per he may command should be a given. But yes, I'd like a WR who's deserving of that kind of money. Depending on how the Evans trade worked out, Stevie could be resigned with his money or maybe less. Evans's extension was 4 years for around 37 so that would pay for it.

The QB spot is another issue. Set aside Fitz for a second. A quality starting QB is probably going to cost you 8 or 9 mill per. IMO, we need better than that but not the best in the league. I think we should be thinking about wanting to have a 10-11 mill per QB. I'm good with a top 15 guy, but would like top 10. Fitz gets 4 or 5 mill now with incentives so that would mean as much as 5-6 mill in new money toward this spot.

On the defense, I think we need to add a serious pass rusher or extend Merriman if he pans out. We could be looking at something in the neighborhood of 8-9 mill per. The franchise tag is 10. If Dareus becomes our stud DT along with Kyle I'm good. If Dareus becomes that we could be looking at 10 mill per for him. The franchise tag number is almost 13. We pay 5 mill for Dareus and 5 mill for Merriman now. Total we should be thinking 8-10 mill in new money should be invested.

And at that point, I'm good with the salary structure across the rest of the team. That doesn't mean were right on target with who we have at all of our positions currently. It simply means that spending wise we aren't looking to bad. CB could be another factor down the road but I like our current spending there, maybe we simply need to change the faces, not the spending level. I don't need Asomugha.

Add it up and I want us to be right around 120-123 mill in total salary. It would be 20 - 24 mill per in new spending. We are hovering around 100 and I want us to spend to jump this team into a solid NFL squad. I realize it all has to be the right players to make it a smart move. But, I'd like us to be thinking about having a team of that caliber and at that total cost.

I'd like us to be close to the cap by league accounting rules. To me, if done right, we could say we put forth our best effort to provide a competitive product at that point.

[YardRat]

What Bills owner Ralph Wilson has opted to do, according to financial analyst Joe Curatolo, is what a good business owner would do in the years leading up to an eventual sale: drive up the asking price.

And yet the value of the team (according to Forbes) is dropping.Good call, Mr. Curatolo.

[Mike]

If the Colts, Cowboys, Jets, Pats, Steelers, Packers, etc... can keep and pay their top talent, we can afford to keep ours and add to it. After all, we are all working with the same Cap.

[YardRat]

If the Colts, Cowboys, Jets, Pats, Steelers, Packers, etc... can keep and pay their top talent, we can afford to keep ours and add to it. After all, we are all working with the same Cap.

We haven't drafted any talent worth re-signing.

[X-Era]

We haven't drafted any talent worth re-signing.Sounds like we should have done more FA shopping, because the needs didn't disappear.

[X-Era]

Merged.

[BLeonard]

Aw... All this Forbes stuff is just a bunch of exaggerated hooey, like the late Ted Rogers said, not to mention complete and utter hogwash... Good ol' Buddy Nix done told y'all that Ralph ain't cheap and that money ain't never been brought up. We all know that good ol' Buddy is a "straight shooter," so I don't know what in tarnation y'all are so daggumed worried about.

:sarcasm2:

-Bill

[BillsFever21]

As long as Wilson can still make 40 million a year with the status quo he will not change anything. As long as the fans accept it and attendance, etc doesn't totally bottom out then he will take his 5 wins or so a year and go home.

Attendance isn't even the biggest thing to him since that revenue is split. He loses money from people spending on vendors and parking, etc, but all the ticket revenue is split outside of the luxury suites.

I can see why other clubs who try to put a winning product on the field would be mad they have to split revenue with owners like Wilson who doesn't care. He can just sit back and play it cheap on players, coaches, front office, etc, and make the 9th most money in the league with a team that hasn't made a playoff game in 11 years with the help of revenue sharing. He has to do less work and doesn't have to try as hard but is at the top of the league in money made. If you add up over the past 5-10 years they are probably even higher on the list since they have been playing the cheap route the entire time while other clubs might go up and down that list.

That sharing of revenue is what has made the NFL what is is today and has made it a more competitive sport but if I was an owner spending money to try and put a good product on the field I would get sick of having to split my money with owners like Wilson who doesn't work nearly as hard as they do but makes more money because his subsidies from league revenue along with playing the cheap route with players and staff can make him more money then most other teams.

[BillsFever21]

What's even worse is I remember Wilson over the years stating many times that teams like his doesn't stand a chance in today's NFL with the player salaries where they are at and he doesn't know if the team could stay in Buffalo long-term. He was talking like he was in poverty and losing money from the team but is in the Top 10 in earnings.

That was all a ploy to con some fans who wear the rose colored glasses as to why they don't spend much and why the team sucks and if they don't sell out every week they will be moving. I'm sure it helped suck more money out of the taxpayers in Erie County too with sweetheart deals from the county.

He wants people in Buffalo to think "At least we have a team" when they suck every year and he is able to use that as his ticket out from fan outrage over him being unwilling to invest in a winning football team.

[better days]

Sounds like we should have done more FA shopping, because the needs didn't disappear.

There were few FA that were any good, the ones that were good were in demand & consequently were OVERPAID.