PFT: "The Jets and Pats may have good reason to get a little nervous." [Archive] - BillsZone.com

Mr. Pink

09-13-2011, 12:01 PM

yeah, the browns D was soft losing to a rookie QB who didn't have Chad and TO. Wonder if the DC has anything to do with that ;) . How you liking that browns D?

The issue on the long AJ Green touchdown reception was guys were standing around unready for the play. Which goes on the HC and the players for not noticing it and calling a time out.

And holy cow do they have the absolute worst punter in the history of the NFL, the dude averaged no joke like 30 yards a punt.

When you're a mediocre team, you need to win the field position battle and not come on a play completely unready for the snap.

Not on Jauron this loss, since he can't call TOs as a DC.

And the Browns defense forced a stop where they still had a chance, they just couldn't block anyone to give Colt McCoy a chance to lead the team into at the least field goal range to tie it.

NOT THE DUDE...

09-13-2011, 12:28 PM

I HATE TO SAY THIS, TRUST ME, but this pats team looks like 07 all over again. those 2 tes are awesome, purely awesome. i dont know how to stop it... the only thing you can do is win in a shoot out.

psubills62

09-13-2011, 12:43 PM

Oaf

09-13-2011, 12:45 PM

It's nice to see our safeties have a good showing, considering the test they have week 3..

stuckincincy

09-13-2011, 12:59 PM

Ickybaluky

09-13-2011, 01:02 PM

The Pats do look very good. It's obvious their offense revolves around the TE's, but their running game can be explosive at times too.

If I were defending it, I'd focus almost entirely on Welker, Gronk and Hernandez. Honestly, I don't think Ochocinco is much of a factor and neither is any of their other WR's. I'm sure the other WR's can make catches if left wide open, but they aren't going to be stars. I'd consider putting someone like Florence and Aaron Williams (reasonably tall guys for CB's) on their TE's.

I wouldn't write off Ochocinco just yet. His big problem is he isn't at the same speed as everyone else, and with the Pats going up-tempo against the Dolphins they couldn't play him much because he slowed them down. A good example of that was the 41-yard catch by Gronkowski down the seam that was called back because Ochocinco covered up the TE (illegal formation). They don't have time for him to make mistakes.

However, the Pats aren't going to go spread/up-tempo all year. They use that type of front with big 3-4 fronts like Pittsburgh, Miami who use less disguise (unlike the Jets, who mask their defense well). That is the best approach for them in that type of game.

There will be a lot of times the Pats play a more traditional-style and run the ball a lot more, and I think Ocho will be able to carve out more of a role while he gets up to speed. The guy still has talent, so I think he will improve.

That said, the thing that makes their offense tough is that they don't have a feature guy so much but have a depth of weapons. They have pretty good backs, good TE's and a tough inside guy in Welker. Deion Branch is a great fit for their offense and is a solid contributor. Taylor Price, once healthy, is a talented young guy who is very similar to when they had David Givens. It will be different guys at different times, which is why they have been so good.

The biggest concern on the OL is up front. They need to get Vollmer healthy and hopefully Koppen can come back at some point. If there is something to derail their offense, it will be OL issues.

Extremebillsfan247

09-13-2011, 01:05 PM

We will be competitive with the Jets this year, no doubt.

But, the Patriots? Man, I don't know if we will even be competitive. Week 3 we will find out.

Tom Brady is scary. I think they run away with the Division once again this year.We can win that first game. It wont be easy, but New England's secondary is atrocious. Henne torched them for 416 passing yards and 2 tds.

justasportsfan

09-13-2011, 01:06 PM

The issue on the long AJ Green touchdown reception was guys were standing around unready for the play. Which goes on the HC and the players for not noticing it and calling a time out.

And holy cow do they have the absolute worst punter in the history of the NFL, the dude averaged no joke like 30 yards a punt.

When you're a mediocre team, you need to win the field position battle and not come on a play completely unready for the snap.

Not on Jauron this loss, since he can't call TOs as a DC.

And the Browns defense forced a stop where they still had a chance, they just couldn't block anyone to give Colt McCoy a chance to lead the team into at the least field goal range to tie it.

I'm sorry that run D is very Jauronesque especially that last TD by the bengals. I had flashbacks and the bengals are not even all that.

stuckincincy

09-13-2011, 01:11 PM

The issue on the long AJ Green touchdown reception was guys were standing around unready for the play. Which goes on the HC and the players for not noticing it and calling a time out.

And holy cow do they have the absolute worst punter in the history of the NFL, the dude averaged no joke like 30 yards a punt.

When you're a mediocre team, you need to win the field position battle and not come on a play completely unready for the snap.

Not on Jauron this loss, since he can't call TOs as a DC.

And the Browns defense forced a stop where they still had a chance, they just couldn't block anyone to give Colt McCoy a chance to lead the team into at the least field goal range to tie it.

IIRC, their regular one got injured late in the PS.

McCoy did poorly - 19 out of 40, with about half of his passing yards coming from 2 long catches. CINs' D stopped them on six drives to end the contest.

CLEs' play calling was bad IMO. McCoy still has that college dust about him. If he continues to roll out under pressure, I suggest he tries it to the left now and again.

better days

09-13-2011, 01:58 PM

I would have put Cleveland 32. Losing a home opener to a team you clearly should beat at home to start off the year.

Well, Cleveland lost at home, the Chiefs got their ass whipped at home when they were favored to win. The Chiefs should be #32.

psubills62

09-13-2011, 01:58 PM

I wouldn't write off Ochocinco just yet. His big problem is he isn't at the same speed as everyone else, and with the Pats going up-tempo against the Dolphins they couldn't play him much because he slowed them down. A good example of that was the 41-yard catch by Gronkowski down the seam that was called back because Ochocinco covered up the TE (illegal formation). They don't have time for him to make mistakes.

However, the Pats aren't going to go spread/up-tempo all year. They use that type of front with big 3-4 fronts like Pittsburgh, Miami who use less disguise (unlike the Jets, who mask their defense well). That is the best approach for them in that type of game.

There will be a lot of times the Pats play a more traditional-style and run the ball a lot more, and I think Ocho will be able to carve out more of a role while he gets up to speed. The guy still has talent, so I think he will improve.

That said, the thing that makes their offense tough is that they don't have a feature guy so much but have a depth of weapons. They have pretty good backs, good TE's and a tough inside guy in Welker. Deion Branch is a great fit for their offense and is a solid contributor. Taylor Price, once healthy, is a talented young guy who is very similar to when they had David Givens. It will be different guys at different times, which is why they have been so good.

The biggest concern on the OL is up front. They need to get Vollmer healthy and hopefully Koppen can come back at some point. If there is something to derail their offense, it will be OL issues.
Well, it's just my opinion, but I think Ochocinco, while still somewhat talented, is declining rapidly. I'm sure the Pats will be able to get a couple decent games out of him, but I don't see him as a huge factor overall.

You're right about the depth of weapons. Despite what I said, we absolutely need to be able to get pressure on Brady with just our down linemen for the most part, otherwise we're going to be smoked.

better days

09-13-2011, 02:14 PM

I'm sorry that run D is very Jauronesque especially that last TD by the bengals. I had flashbacks and the bengals are not even all that.

It is KARMA that Jauron ended up in Cleveland because FuntimesYay was a big Jauron supporter.

I hope he enjoys watching the Jauron defense this year.

Ickybaluky

09-13-2011, 02:22 PM

Well, it's just my opinion, but I think Ochocinco, while still somewhat talented, is declining rapidly. I'm sure the Pats will be able to get a couple decent games out of him, but I don't see him as a huge factor overall.

That is possible, that he just can't separate like he used to. It happens.

I just don't buy into the "too complex" argument though. They didn't have an off-season to get up to speed, and they play at a fast tempo. He isn't going to play much until the timing is down. It is understandable that his snaps are limited at this point.

I just think eventually Belichick will find a role for the guy to fit in. I am not surprised he is out-of-sync this early in the season after getting here late. It takes time to get comfortable with the timing of a precise offense like the Pats, and I think that is what he is going through.

If he loses it physically and can't get separation, so be it. I think it is too early to judge that right now. I would not be surprised if by mid-season he busts out and has a couple big games. If his ineffectiveness lingers late in the year then it is probably a trend. I still think patience is needed.

Lexwhat

09-13-2011, 03:07 PM

That is possible, that he just can't separate like he used to. It happens.

I just don't buy into the "too complex" argument though. They didn't have an off-season to get up to speed, and they play at a fast tempo. He isn't going to play much until the timing is down. It is understandable that his snaps are limited at this point.

I just think eventually Belichick will find a role for the guy to fit in. I am not surprised he is out-of-sync this early in the season after getting here late. It takes time to get comfortable with the timing of a precise offense like the Pats, and I think that is what he is going through.

If he loses it physically and can't get separation, so be it. I think it is too early to judge that right now. I would not be surprised if by mid-season he busts out and has a couple big games. If his ineffectiveness lingers late in the year then it is probably a trend. I still think patience is needed.

Your logic is sensible, but I don't think it's relevant.

I don't buy the idea that it "takes time to get comfortable" in the Pats Offense.
--The 2 rookies (Hernandez and Gronkowski) hit the ground running.
--Danny Woodhead (although not really a receiver) came out of nowhere and hit the ground running.
--Deion Branch came in almost mid-season last year and hit the ground running (yea, I know he used to play with Brady, but that's after he spent 4+ boring years in Seattle. That's a long time).

This also begs the question: Why even try to fit OchoCinco in? I see no reason for Belichick to disrupt the Patriots Offense just to find a "role" for Chad. As it stands, Chad is no better than the 5th option for Brady.

Simply put -- Chad just isn't a good fit for the Patriots Offense, IMHO, and he will have an uneventful season. He's an old dog. Instead of contributing, he's practically riding the bench.

It was a good gamble by Belichick, but it won't pay off. They would've been better off bringing back Randy Moss.

baalworship

09-13-2011, 03:45 PM

The new look Bills match up better against the Jets than the Pats. The Jets depend on power running to set up play-action. We are now well equipped to stop that sort of thing.

My fear is our lack of pass-rush. We need Merriman to be unleashed and I hope Edwards uses something like the Creep formations we used against Dallas on MNF a few years ago to create pressure on Brady up the middle.

If we have a game plan as dumb as the Dolphins we will get carved up.

Ickybaluky

09-13-2011, 03:48 PM

I don't buy the idea that it "takes time to get comfortable" in the Pats Offense.
--The 2 rookies (Hernandez and Gronkowski) hit the ground running.
--Danny Woodhead (although not really a receiver) came out of nowhere and hit the ground running.
--Deion Branch came in almost mid-season last year and hit the ground running (yea, I know he used to play with Brady, but that's after he spent 4+ boring years in Seattle. That's a long time).

Hernandez and Gronkowski didn't "hit the ground running". They were brought along over a period of months. The lack of offseason work is the issue.

Woodhead played in the same offense under Mangini.

Branch played in the offense for years.

All those guys had time to grasp the concepts and get lots of reps to get timing down with Brady. Ocho has been thrust in there while the team has had to prepare to play, and there hasn't been the kind of time to establish a comfort-level needed to make his play be intuitive. That usually comes in the offseason, not when you are getting ready to play.

This also begs the question: Why even try to fit OchoCinco in? I see no reason for Belichick to disrupt the Patriots Offense just to find a "role" for Chad. As it stands, Chad is no better than the 5th option for Brady.

Because when he is a hell of a player when right. I realize he isn't the same Chad of 5 years ago, but the guy isn't some schmuck. He would add another very good player. He would basically be a bigger Deion Branch with his quick cuts, and that is valuable in this offense.

Simply put -- Chad just isn't a good fit for the Patriots Offense, IMHO, and he will have an uneventful season. He's an old dog. Instead of contributing, he's practically riding the bench.

It was a good gamble by Belichick, but it won't pay off. They would've been better off bringing back Randy Moss.

I think Chad offers more versatility than Moss at this point. Moss probably could still help an offense, but when he is on the field you know what he is going to do. Chad is more of an intermediate threat, even if he isn't the deep threat that Moss presents.

You may be right, but I just think it is too early to tell. People are piling on the guy, but it is understandable that he will need time to adjust to the offense. What makes things worse is the team doesn't have time to work him in, and in games like yesterday they are better off going with more known quantities.

The comparison I use for Chad is when the Pats picked up Jabar Gaffney in 2006. They picked him up on the bye week and he was with the team for the final 11 games of the season. He didn't have a huge impact, with only 11 receptions in the regular season. In the playoffs he started to get more comfortable in the offense and played great with 21 receptions. That carried over into 2007 and 2008, when he was a valuable role player.

I see Chad as a more talented Jabar Gaffney. I am willing to give him some time to adjust because it could pay off down the line. I know there is hope because Brady is still working with the guy and trying to make it work. With Brady, once he gives up on a player he is done, he won't even look his way anymore. I haven't seen that. Patience is the operative word.

mikemac2001

09-13-2011, 04:01 PM

chad will be fine, he still has some in the tank

icky is right it takes time and they dont need him right now so whats the point if he is in or not

stuckincincy

09-13-2011, 04:02 PM

Well, it's just my opinion, but I think Ochocinco, while still somewhat talented, is declining rapidly. I'm sure the Pats will be able to get a couple decent games out of him, but I don't see him as a huge factor overall.

You're right about the depth of weapons. Despite what I said, we absolutely need to be able to get pressure on Brady with just our down linemen for the most part, otherwise we're going to be smoked.

That's what I've been wondering - is he out of gas?

Watched his entire career with CIN - he ran marvelous patterns, and suffered through Palmer's high passes (after Palmer's knee hit), and certainly spent a year or two of short-arming during his "trade me" snit. He is goofy, but goofy in the same way your six-year old is.

He indeed has caused many a LOS infraction - I recall a season when he cost CIN 2 touchdowns - didn't cover the line. He's a usual wr blocker at the LOS, but reliably peels off to the play and becomes a decent downfield blocker for the other guy.

He's taken tremendous hits in his career, but impressively bounces back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ac0A6bTGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrXNwwOlZ30

I guess we'll see if he figures into their scheme. But I can't think of a DC that wouldn't make some plans.

better days

09-13-2011, 05:16 PM

Woodhead played in the same offense under Mangini.

[/quote]

Come on Icky your better than this. To say that Woodhead played for Mangini makes you look like a typical Pats* fan that knows nothing.

I know you know the HC of the Jets is Rex Ryan.

Meathead

09-13-2011, 06:25 PM

to show you how small time pft is they look up to pat moran

Lexwhat

09-13-2011, 06:28 PM

Hernandez and Gronkowski didn't "hit the ground running". They were brought along over a period of months. The lack of offseason work is the issue.

Woodhead played in the same offense under Mangini.

Branch played in the offense for years.

All those guys had time to grasp the concepts and get lots of reps to get timing down with Brady. Ocho has been thrust in there while the team has had to prepare to play, and there hasn't been the kind of time to establish a comfort-level needed to make his play be intuitive. That usually comes in the offseason, not when you are getting ready to play.

I guess we will just have to disagree... Aaron Hernandez was a 4th round pick and has excelled in his role. How many 4th round TEs/slot WRs have had as much success as him in their rookie years? To me, that's hitting the ground running.

But okay, for the sake of argument, let's use off-season workouts as the time to establish a comfort level:

--Plaxico Burress: This guy has been in jail for 2 years, and hasen't stepped on a football field for even longer than that. He joined the Jets at the same time Chad joined the Patriots. He had 4 catches and a TD in his debut. I understand the Jets Offense is not the Patriots Offense, but come on now... Plaxico is already settled in as the #2 option on that Offense, while Chad can barely even get a pass thrown his way (out of Brady's 48 passes, he targeted Chad 3 times).

--Deion Branch: I don't really know how we can agree on this. The guy comes back after 4+ years and picks things up in a matter of days. And I agree Chad isn't some schmuck. A veteran of his stature should show SOME flashes of talent.

Because when he is a hell of a player when right. I realize he isn't the same Chad of 5 years ago, but the guy isn't some schmuck. He would add another very good player. He would basically be a bigger Deion Branch with his quick cuts, and that is valuable in this offense.

See above.

I think Chad offers more versatility than Moss at this point. Moss probably could still help an offense, but when he is on the field you know what he is going to do. Chad is more of an intermediate threat, even if he isn't the deep threat that Moss presents.

You may be right, but I just think it is too early to tell. People are piling on the guy, but it is understandable that he will need time to adjust to the offense. What makes things worse is the team doesn't have time to work him in, and in games like yesterday they are better off going with more known quantities.

Well, in any case, we will see what happens. I agree with you -- they have no time left to work him in, which is why (IMO) this low-risk gamble won't pay off for the Patriots. Over a month of pre-season workouts apparently wasn't enough.

It's not like Defenses are focusing on him either. That's the worst part.

Ickybaluky

09-13-2011, 06:49 PM

Come on Icky your better than this. To say that Woodhead played for Mangini makes you look like a typical Pats* fan that knows nothing.

I know you know the HC of the Jets is Rex Ryan.

Come on, better days, you're better than this. To say that Woodhead didn't play for Eric Mangini makes you look like a typical Bills* fan that knows nothing.

Woodhead went undrafted in 2008, but caught the eye Eric Mangini, who liked to watch tape of small college prospects to see if he could find any gems. Because of Mangini, the Jets signed him and brought him to camp.

I know you know that the HC of the Jets at the time was Eric Mangini.

He was hurt in camp, and he spent the 2008 year on I/R. When Ryan took over, he inherited Woodhead.

BillsFanCupp38

09-13-2011, 07:49 PM

Hardly... Both are still the class of this division and Miami didn't look that bad against a REALLY strong Patriots team...

RoscoeMagic

09-13-2011, 08:42 PM

Pats and Jets nervous about the Bills? Poor choice of words. They're not afraid of us at all, but the good thing is, now I don't think we're afraid of them anymore.

better days

09-13-2011, 09:44 PM

Come on, better days, you're better than this. To say that Woodhead didn't play for Eric Mangini makes you look like a typical Bills* fan that knows nothing.

Woodhead went undrafted in 2008, but caught the eye Eric Mangini, who liked to watch tape of small college prospects to see if he could find any gems. Because of Mangini, the Jets signed him and brought him to camp.

I know you know that the HC of the Jets at the time was Eric Mangini.

He was hurt in camp, and he spent the 2008 year on I/R. When Ryan took over, he inherited Woodhead.

EXACTLY so explain how he played in Manginis system when he was on IR.

Ickybaluky

09-13-2011, 10:32 PM

EXACTLY so explain how he played in Manginis system when he was on IR.

He was with them the entire offseason, including minicamps and training camp before getting hurt. Players on IR, though they can't practice, can participate in all team meetings and non-practice preparation. He had a whole year to absorb the system, which was part of the reason he was able to get up to speed so quickly when NE picked him up.

I wouldn't expect you to understand it, though. You apparently had the mistaken impression that Rex Ryan was his first head coach.

I think it is funny that you jumped in with a snide comment when you thought I was wrong, but now you are backtracking after showing you didn't have a clue.

BTW, it is "you're".

better days

09-14-2011, 12:51 AM

He was with them the entire offseason, including minicamps and training camp before getting hurt. Players on IR, though they can't practice, can participate in all team meetings and non-practice preparation. He had a whole year to absorb the system, which was part of the reason he was able to get up to speed so quickly when NE picked him up.

I wouldn't expect you to understand it, though. You apparently had the mistaken impression that Rex Ryan was his first head coach.

I think it is funny that you jumped in with a snide comment when you thought I was wrong, but now you are backtracking after showing you didn't have a clue.

BTW, it is "you're".

No I knew he was on IR in 08 & he did not play in the Mangini system that year as you said he did because he was ON IR.

BertSquirtgum

09-14-2011, 01:42 AM

the Jets and Patriots have no reason at all to worry about the Bills.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 05:41 AM

No I knew he was on IR in 08 & he did not play in the Mangini system that year as you said he did because he was ON IR.

You had no clue, which is obvious by what you posted. He had an entire offseason in the system, not to mention an entire season of meetings and preparation. He got to learn the terminology and passing game concepts (all the same as NE) over time. Heck, Ryan ended up moving Woodhead to WR of all things, so he had more time playing his position under Mangini than he did under Ryan. That is exactly what Chad didn't have, which was the point of the whole thing.

better days

09-14-2011, 07:41 AM

You had no clue, which is obvious by what you posted. He had an entire offseason in the system, not to mention an entire season of meetings and preparation. He got to learn the terminology and passing game concepts (all the same as NE) over time. Heck, Ryan ended up moving Woodhead to WR of all things, so he had more time playing his position under Mangini than he did under Ryan. That is exactly what Chad didn't have, which was the point of the whole thing.

I KNEW he was on IR in 08. YOU posted that he PLAYED for Mangini which is TOTAL BS because he was on IR the entire year Mangini coached there.

Night Train

09-14-2011, 07:46 AM

The key term being " may "

Let's give this a few weeks to see if it has legs.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 08:39 AM

I KNEW he was on IR in 08. YOU posted that he PLAYED for Mangini which is TOTAL BS because he was on IR the entire year Mangini coached there.

He wasn't on IR after he signed. He wasn't on IR when he went to minicamp. He wasn't on IR when he went to training camp. He spent the whole year on the team with Mangini as coach, with meeting time and mental reps. You had no clue he played for any other coach than Ryan, which is obvious by your smug comment.

I have some experience being a smug jackass, so let me give you some advice: If you are going to do it, you better know what you are talking about. You don't, so you should just shut up about it. You can deny it all you want, but you got in over your head. You just aren't knowledgeable enough to make your argument, but you can't accept that even after you make it obvious. As a result, you fall back on hyperbole, which is a common practice. You have no actual information to offer, so you offer hyperbole. It is a common practice for politicians and people who are ignorant about a subject. You fall into the latter group.

Woodhead had a full year in the same offense the Pats run, with the same terminology and same passing scheme. He got to take reps on the field and in the classroom, and that made it an easier transition when NE picked him up. The same can be said for Deion Branch (4 years). Hernandez and Gronkowski had the entire offseason to prepare and learn the system.

That can't be said for Chad. Ocho spent his entire career in Cincinnati with a numbers-based passing scheme. When he left the huddle he knew he was running a 9 route, or a 5 route. He didn't have to worry about anything but running his route.

When he breaks the huddle in NE, he has options and it isn't clear what he is going to do.

He needs to think about protection or alignment adjustments Brady makes pre-snap. Not only might he have to adjust his alignment based on what is called for him, but he needs to know the adjustments for other players in the offense as well so he can change his alignment. That is what happened when he got the penalty for illegal formation that negated the 41-yard seam route to Gronkowski. Brady made an adjustment and Chad needed to change his alignment so he wasn't covering up the TE. He failed to make that adjustment, a costly mistake.

He also needs to think about the coverage the defense is presenting. Depending on the coverage, he is running a different route. Not only does he need to make that read, he needs to do it in concert with Brady. He needs to read it as Brady does, so he can make the same adjustment.

Finally, he needs to be aware of Brady making a last minute audible to him. This could be a hand signal or non-verbal signal that tells him the blitz is coming and they are going to change to a quick tear screen or something. That type of chemistry takes time to develop.

It isn't that the system is so complicated, because football isn't as complicated as they make it out to be. However, it takes time to get your timing down and make it work in practice. There is no real way around that.

Again, I think Jabar Gaffney is probably the similar example. Gaffney didn't have an offseason, he had to join the team in the middle of preparing to play. He was with the team about 3/4 of the season before he finally started making an impact in the playoffs. Like Chad, he was coming from a different style of offense that did not make WR make so many adjustments.

I don't know if Chad will ultimately work out or not, but I just don't see it as being long enough to make that judgment. He has only been with them for 5 weeks or so. I know that Brady doesn't seem to have given up on him, so there is still a chance. Patience is the operative word. If he is stills struggling late in the year then you have to wonder if he will ever get it or if he has just lost his physical skills. However, I don't think it is a surprise he is struggling right now.

Mike13

09-14-2011, 09:37 AM

There is no ******* way are the Dolphins the 30th best team in the NFL.
Florio is a ******.

better days

09-14-2011, 10:01 AM

He wasn't on IR after he signed. He wasn't on IR when he went to minicamp. He wasn't on IR when he went to training camp. He spent the whole year on the team with Mangini as coach, with meeting time and mental reps. You had no clue he played for any other coach than Ryan, which is obvious by your smug comment.

I have some experience being a smug jackass, so let me give you some advice: If you are going to do it, you better know what you are talking about. You don't, so you should just shut up about it. You can deny it all you want, but you got in over your head. You just aren't knowledgeable enough to make your argument, but you can't accept that even after you make it obvious. As a result, you fall back on hyperbole, which is a common practice. You have no actual information to offer, so you offer hyperbole. It is a common practice for politicians and people who are ignorant about a subject. You fall into the latter group.

Woodhead had a full year in the same offense the Pats run, with the same terminology and same passing scheme. He got to take reps on the field and in the classroom, and that made it an easier transition when NE picked him up. The same can be said for Deion Branch (4 years). Hernandez and Gronkowski had the entire offseason to prepare and learn the system.

That can't be said for Chad. Ocho spent his entire career in Cincinnati with a numbers-based passing scheme. When he left the huddle he knew he was running a 9 route, or a 5 route. He didn't have to worry about anything but running his route.

When he breaks the huddle in NE, he has options and it isn't clear what he is going to do.

He needs to think about protection or alignment adjustments Brady makes pre-snap. Not only might he have to adjust his alignment based on what is called for him, but he needs to know the adjustments for other players in the offense as well so he can change his alignment. That is what happened when he got the penalty for illegal formation that negated the 41-yard seam route to Gronkowski. Brady made an adjustment and Chad needed to change his alignment so he wasn't covering up the TE. He failed to make that adjustment, a costly mistake.

He also needs to think about the coverage the defense is presenting. Depending on the coverage, he is running a different route. Not only does he need to make that read, he needs to do it in concert with Brady. He needs to read it as Brady does, so he can make the same adjustment.

Finally, he needs to be aware of Brady making a last minute audible to him. This could be a hand signal or non-verbal signal that tells him the blitz is coming and they are going to change to a quick tear screen or something. That type of chemistry takes time to develop.

It isn't that the system is so complicated, because football isn't as complicated as they make it out to be. However, it takes time to get your timing down and make it work in practice. There is no real way around that.

Again, I think Jabar Gaffney is probably the similar example. Gaffney didn't have an offseason, he had to join the team in the middle of preparing to play. He was with the team about 3/4 of the season before he finally started making an impact in the playoffs. Like Chad, he was coming from a different style of offense that did not make WR make so many adjustments.

I don't know if Chad will ultimately work out or not, but I just don't see it as being long enough to make that judgment. He has only been with them for 5 weeks or so. I know that Brady doesn't seem to have given up on him, so there is still a chance. Patience is the operative word. If he is stills struggling late in the year then you have to wonder if he will ever get it or if he has just lost his physical skills. However, I don't think it is a surprise he is struggling right now.

I did not even bother reading this LONG WINDED post after the first couple sentences. How much did he play after he signed or in minicamp? Little to NONE is my guess. There is no playing at that time. He was injured in Training camp.

The FACT is he played LITTLE if at all under Mangini & it was the year before he went to the Pats* Who can say how much he retained from that.

Lexwhat

09-14-2011, 10:11 AM

"Drop the awe factor, OK, Ocho, Chad, drop the awe factor," Bruschi began. "You're not a fan, all right. You're not someone who's on another team or watching TV. You're not an analyst. You're a part of it. They want you to be a part of it. So get with the program because obviously you're not getting it and you're tweeting because you're saying, 'It's amazing to see'? It's amazing to see because you don't understand it! You still don't understand it and it's amazing to you because you can't get it.

"Stop tweeting and get in your playbook," Bruschi went on. "Wake up! If you're just waking up now -- I don't know when this was, six minutes ago? -- get out your bed and get to the stadium and watch some film if you still think it's amazing. If you're in it and you know what you're doing and you execute out there you don't think it's amazing. You know why? Because it's what you're supposed to do."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8223912c/article/bruschi-to-ocho-stop-tweeting-and-get-in-your-playbook?module=HP11_headline_stack

Lexwhat

09-14-2011, 10:26 AM

I have some experience being a smug jackass, so let me give you some advice: If you are going to do it, you better know what you are talking about. You don't, so you should just shut up about it. You can deny it all you want, but you got in over your head. You just aren't knowledgeable enough to make your argument, but you can't accept that even after you make it obvious. As a result, you fall back on hyperbole, which is a common practice. You have no actual information to offer, so you offer hyperbole. It is a common practice for politicians and people who are ignorant about a subject. You fall into the latter group.

Woodhead had a full year in the same offense the Pats run, with the same terminology and same passing scheme. He got to take reps on the field and in the classroom, and that made it an easier transition when NE picked him up. The same can be said for Deion Branch (4 years). Hernandez and Gronkowski had the entire offseason to prepare and learn the system.

That can't be said for Chad. Ocho spent his entire career in Cincinnati with a numbers-based passing scheme. When he left the huddle he knew he was running a 9 route, or a 5 route. He didn't have to worry about anything but running his route.

When he breaks the huddle in NE, he has options and it isn't clear what he is going to do.

It isn't that the system is so complicated, because football isn't as complicated as they make it out to be. However, it takes time to get your timing down and make it work in practice. There is no real way around that.

1. Not sure why this topic has become so serious. Just a discussion.

2. Look at what Tedy Bruschi wrote. He's clearly calling out Chad.

3. I brought up Plaxico Burress as an example. Any response to that?
You are talking about "getting your timing down and making it work in practice." Maybe Chad is just plain lazy. No elite WR can be that bad (like I said, he's practically riding the bench after having an entire pre-season to work with Brady).

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 11:12 AM

2. Look at what Tedy Bruschi wrote. He's clearly calling out Chad.

Tedy is emotional guy, and he is reacting like he would if he were still part of the team. He looks at it like Chad shouldn't be twittering and such until he starts to contribute. Tedy isn't a part of the team anymore, though. He doesn't know what is going on in the lockerroom.

Brady said the following in response (http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4702862/ochocinco-being-in-awe-of-offense):

"Chad, from the day that he got here, he's worked really hard to be a part of this offense and be involved," Brady told the "Dennis & Callahan" program.

"I don't know when he said that [about being in awe] or what he said, but I know that we're counting on him to be a huge contributor. And he expects that too. He expects to be out there making plays. When I'm in the huddle with him, he's very excited about being out there, making catches, doing the right thing and being in the right spot. He's definitely done that over the course of training camp. So anyone who has come to training camp knows that he's been a part of what we're trying to do since the day we got him. I'm excited for him. ..."

3. I brought up Plaxico Burress as an example. Any response to that?
You are talking about "getting your timing down and making it work in practice." Maybe Chad is just plain lazy. No elite WR can be that bad (like I said, he's practically riding the bench after having an entire pre-season to work with Brady).

Buress played in similar systems with the Steelers, Giants and Jets. He isn't making the same kind of conversion.

The differences in systems between what Chad was doing before and what he is doing now is greater than people realize. It isn't so much "learning the system", it is getting timing down and getting up to the same speed as everyone else. The system isn't that complex, but the implementation of it takes time to get down. You need reps and chemistry to make it work.

Chad used to break the huddle and know what he was supposed to do on a given play. Now, he doesn't. That is a huge difference. He now needs to adjust what he is doing based on what Brady does before the snap, how other players do to adjust and what coverage the defense is playing.

It is the coordination with all other players in the offense that takes time, because it is all new to him but those players have a background in it. The offense isn't too complex to learn, but getting in sync with everyone else takes time. There is no rushing it, and considering he has only been there 5 weeks I don't think his struggles are unexpected.

The system isn't that complex, but you need to practice it to have it be natural. You can read about overhauling an engine, but until you have some experience you are going to make mistakes. To take the analogy furhter, the team has a lot of experienced mechanics so he isn't going to get a lot of chances until he gets up to speed.

Like I said, if Ocho is still struggling in 2 months then there is an issue. Personally, I don't think the issue would be his knowing the system, it would be his not being able to get separation like he used to. All I am saying is it is too early to judge right now.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 11:19 AM

I did not even bother reading this LONG WINDED post after the first couple sentences. How much did he play after he signed or in minicamp? Little to NONE is my guess. There is no playing at that time. He was injured in Training camp.

I'm not surprised you didn't read it, that would take some actual thinking.

The guy worked like any player does in the off-season. What do you think teams do in minicamps and offseason workouts? They put in their schemes. By the time they get to camp. most of the offense is installed and they have run reps. That allows them to hit the ground running. Woodhead was there for all that work, something that Chad didn't have because of the lockout.

The FACT is he played LITTLE if at all under Mangini & it was the year before he went to the Pats* Who can say how much he retained from that.

You had no clue he was on the team. He was there for Mangini's last year as coach. That much is "FACT".

better days

09-14-2011, 11:22 AM

Tedy is emotional guy, and he is reacting like he would if he were still part of the team. He looks at it like Chad shouldn't be twittering and such until he starts to contribute. Tedy isn't a part of the team anymore, though. He doesn't know what is going on in the lockerroom.

Brady said the following in response (http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4702862/ochocinco-being-in-awe-of-offense):

Buress played in similar systems with the Steelers, Giants and Jets. He isn't making the same kind of conversion.

The differences in systems between what Chad was doing before and what he is doing now is greater than people realize. It isn't so much "learning the system", it is getting timing down and getting up to the same speed as everyone else. The system isn't that complex, but the implementation of it takes time to get down. You need reps and chemistry to make it work.

Chad used to break the huddle and know what he was supposed to do on a given play. Now, he doesn't. That is a huge difference. He now needs to adjust what he is doing based on what Brady does before the snap, how other players do to adjust and what coverage the defense is playing.

It is the coordination with all other players in the offense that takes time, because it is all new to him but those players have a background in it. The offense isn't too complex to learn, but getting in sync with everyone else takes time. There is no rushing it, and considering he has only been there 5 weeks I don't think his struggles are unexpected.

The system isn't that complex, but you need to practice it to have it be natural. You can read about overhauling an engine, but until you have some experience you are going to make mistakes. To take the analogy furhter, the team has a lot of experienced mechanics so he isn't going to get a lot of chances until he gets up to speed.

Like I said, if Ocho is still struggling in 2 months then there is an issue. Personally, I don't think the issue would be his knowing the system, it would be his not being able to get separation like he used to. All I am saying is it is too early to judge right now.

Well I am happy Teddy is not a Pat* anymore myself. That defense sorely misses the leadership he & Harrison provided. He is expressing his opinion which he has every right to do. Especially since he is now a part of the media.

better days

09-14-2011, 11:39 AM

I'm not surprised you didn't read it, that would take some actual thinking.

The guy worked like any player does in the off-season. What do you think teams do in minicamps and offseason workouts? They put in their schemes. By the time they get to camp. most of the offense is installed and they have run reps. That allows them to hit the ground running. Woodhead was there for all that work, something that Chad didn't have because of the lockout.

You had no clue he was on the team. He was there for Mangini's last year as coach. That much is "FACT".

I KNEW the Jets signed Woodhead as an undrafted FA in 08. I also knew he was injured in training camp & placed on IR in 08.

Hence Ryan is the only HC that Woodhead PLAYED for in NY.

If you had posted he was on the Jets when Mangini was coach, you would have been right, but you posted he PLAYED for Mangini which makes you wrong.

I quess you can blame ADD for me not wanting to read that LONG WINDED post. You should really try to be more concise when trying to make your point.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 12:01 PM

I KNEW the Jets signed Woodhead as an undrafted FA in 08. I also knew he was injured in training camp & placed on IR in 08.

Hence Ryan is the only HC that Woodhead PLAYED for in NY.

If you had posted he was on the Jets when Mangini was coach, you would have been right, but you posted he PLAYED for Mangini which makes you wrong.

I quess you can blame ADD for me not wanting to read that LONG WINDED post. You should really try to be more concise when trying to make your point.

See? Hyperbole because you can't come to grips with being wrong. You can claim semantics all you want, but the fact is you had no idea he was on the team.

What do you think Woodhead was doing all offseason? What was he doing in training camp? What was he doing in meetings? The guy had a full year in the system.

better days

09-14-2011, 12:20 PM

See? Hyperbole because you can't come to grips with being wrong. You can claim semantics all you want, but the fact is you had no idea he was on the team.

What do you think Woodhead was doing all offseason? What was he doing in training camp? What was he doing in meetings? The guy had a full year in the system.

You are the person that can't stand to be wrong. You said he PLAYED. That was WRONG. I googled Woodhead. He was WAIVED/INJURED on JULY 26 by the Jets after suffering a KNEE injury.

I think Woodhead was on IR all offseason as a waived/injured player, rehabbing his knee.

Mad Max

09-14-2011, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Brady
"Chad, from the day that he got here, he's worked really hard to be a part of this offense and be involved," Brady told the "Dennis & Callahan" program.

"I don't know when he said that [about being in awe] or what he said, but I know that we're counting on him to be a huge contributor. And he expects that too. He expects to be out there making plays. When I'm in the huddle with him, he's very excited about being out there, making catches, doing the right thing and being in the right spot. He's definitely done that over the course of training camp. So anyone who has come to training camp knows that he's been a part of what we're trying to do since the day we got him. I'm excited for him. ..."

How is this Brady comment a rebut to what Bruschi said about Ocho? I'm not saying I necessarily agree with what Bruschi said, as I personally think Ocho will come around eventually as he grows more comfortable with the offense (if Belicheat doesn't get impatient and cut him first).

Brady's statement was what any good QB would say, he was simply having his guys back, nothing more, nothing less. He certainly wasn't going to say Ocho's been a little slow on the uptake with the playbook if that were the case.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 12:48 PM

You are the person that can't stand to be wrong. You said he PLAYED. That was WRONG. I googled Woodhead. He was WAIVED/INJURED on JULY 26 by the Jets after suffering a KNEE injury.

I think Woodhead was on IR all offseason as a waived/injured player, rehabbing his knee.

You probably should have googled that before incorrectly stating he wasn't on the team when Mangini was there. Then you would have known he had a season in that offense prior to coming to the Patriots. You would know he signed post draft and had a full offseason to acclimate and a full season to learn.

Ah well, at least now you are accepting he played for Mangini. Remember, next time check you facts.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 12:56 PM

How is this Brady comment a rebut to what Bruschi said about Ocho? I'm not saying I necessarily agree with what Bruschi said, as I personally think Ocho will come around eventually as he grows more comfortable with the offense (if Belicheat doesn't get impatient and cut him first).

Brady's statement was what any good QB would say, he was simply having his guys back, nothing more, nothing less. He certainly wasn't going to say Ocho's been a little slow on the uptake with the playbook if that were the case.

Brady also said: "Everyone has an opinion on everything. And none of it really means anything"

I have no problem with what Bruschi or Rodney Harrison said. Both are hard-nosed guys and their point is stop all the tweeting and such until you get with the program. They see it as a distraction.

All I am saying is it is understandable the guy is struggling considering the adjustment is he making and the lack of an offseason. I think he deserves a little patience and a chance to see if he can contribute.

I don't know if Ocho will fit in eventually or not, of even if he can still play. I do know that the guy was a pretty good player, and if he comes around he can help them. I think it is a little early to write him off as a bust. Time will tell.

I think this coming game is a chance for him to fit in. San Diego has a real good defense and Brady struggled against them last year. They shut Donovan McNabb down last week. This won't be a 500-yard passing day. A guy like Chad would provide a boost if he can, because he brings a little different skill set than what they had before in terms of an outside threat. Let's see if he can show any improvement.

better days

09-14-2011, 01:14 PM

You probably should have googled that before incorrectly stating he wasn't on the team when Mangini was there. Then you would have known he had a season in that offense prior to coming to the Patriots. You would know he signed post draft and had a full offseason to acclimate and a full season to learn.

Ah well, at least now you are accepting he played for Mangini. Remember, next time check you facts.

I know he was on the team when Mangini was HC BUT he NEVER PLAYED for Mangini as you said. The HOF game, the FIRST game of preseason, was played on Aug 3 AFTER Woodhead was INJURED. HE NEVER PLAYED for Mangini.

Show me where I said he was not on the team when Mangini was there. I said Ryan was the Coach last year, when Woodhead PLAYED.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 02:41 PM

I know he was on the team when Mangini was HC BUT he NEVER PLAYED for Mangini as you said. The HOF game, the FIRST game of preseason, was played on Aug 3 AFTER Woodhead was INJURED. HE NEVER PLAYED for Mangini.

Show me where I said he was not on the team when Mangini was there. I said Ryan was the Coach last year, when Woodhead PLAYED.

I said he played in the offense, you said he didn't because you thought he only played for Ryan. What was he doing after they signed him, scouting? Didn't they have mini-camp? Didn't they have offseason work? Didn't they have meetings? Do you think he was playing defense or something? I don't expect you to know everything about the guy, but if you weren't previously aware he did not play defense.

It is kind of sad you can't just say you were wrong. His whole first season in the NFL was with the Jets when Mangini coached them.

better days

09-14-2011, 02:49 PM

I said he played in the offense, you said he didn't because you thought he only played for Ryan. What was he doing after they signed him, scouting? Didn't they have mini-camp? Didn't they have offseason work? Didn't they have meetings? Do you think he was playing defense or something? I don't expect you to know everything about the guy, but if you weren't previously aware he did not play defense.

It is kind of sad you can't just say you were wrong. His whole first season in the NFL was with the Jets when Mangini coached them.

You just don't get it. YOU posted he PLAYED under Mangini. I knew he didn't PLAY under Mangini that is why I posted the 1st post.

The FACT is you were WRONG about him playing under Mangini. He NEVER PLAYED for him. To play, there has to be a GAME.

I posted that first post as a joke & thought you would get it. Had I known you are such an ass you can't admit to being wrong I never would have posted it. I never intended it to turn into anything serious.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 03:24 PM

You just don't get it. YOU posted he PLAYED under Mangini. I knew he didn't PLAY under Mangini that is why I posted the 1st post.

The FACT is you were WRONG about him playing under Mangini. He NEVER PLAYED for him. To play, there has to be a GAME.

What I posted, verbatim, is:

"Woodhead played in the same offense under Mangini."

I'm not sure if you think he was scouting or playing defense or something, but once he signed with them he had to play in their offense, right? Do you think they had a different offense for him than they did for everyone else? What were they teaching him after he signed other than the offense they played? They taught him their offense, same as all the other offensive players.

Remember, as I pointed out to you, he joined them the year before Ryan's arrival. Mangini was the coach at the time. You mistakenly thought he only joined them after Ryan became coach, and I hope you are clear that is not true.

better days

09-14-2011, 10:04 PM

What I posted, verbatim, is:

"Woodhead played in the same offense under Mangini."

I'm not sure if you think he was scouting or playing defense or something, but once he signed with them he had to play in their offense, right? Do you think they had a different offense for him than they did for everyone else? What were they teaching him after he signed other than the offense they played? They taught him their offense, same as all the other offensive players.

Remember, as I pointed out to you, he joined them the year before Ryan's arrival. Mangini was the coach at the time. You mistakenly thought he only joined them after Ryan became coach, and I hope you are clear that is not true.

I knew he joined the Jets before Ryans arrived. I posted my first post as a joke because you said he PLAYED in the same offense under Mangini.

In order to PLAY, there has to be a GAME to play in, what is so hard to understand about that? Woodhead was injured before he ever got a chance to PLAY IN A GAME when Mangini was HC.

Like I said it was meant to be a joke, but you were too dense to get it & you also don't want to admit when you are WRONG.

Ickybaluky

09-14-2011, 11:16 PM

I knew he joined the Jets before Ryans arrived.

You realized after I told you. You posted that Ryan was the head coach of the Jets because you thought his exposure was limited to that offense. If you knew he played in the offense when Mangini was there you wouldn't have posted what you did. You can backtrack all you want, it doesn't change it.

You don't have to be ashamed, it is OK to get stuff wrong. It happens to all of us. However, if you are going to contribute you should try to do a little research so you can offer more than hyperbole. Google first next time, not later.

better days

09-15-2011, 12:23 AM

You realized after I told you. You posted that Ryan was the head coach of the Jets because you thought his exposure was limited to that offense. If you knew he played in the offense when Mangini was there you wouldn't have posted what you did. You can backtrack all you want, it doesn't change it.

You don't have to be ashamed, it is OK to get stuff wrong. It happens to all of us. However, if you are going to contribute you should try to do a little research so you can offer more than hyperbole. Google first next time, not later.

FOR THE LAST TIME, I KNEW WOODHEAD signed with the Jets in 2008 when Mangini was HC.

You POSTED that Woodhead PLAYED UNDER MANGINI. Well the FACT is he NEVER played under Mangini because he was INJURED before he ever played a game in 08.

THERE HAS TO BE A GAME PLAYED IN ORDER FOR A PLAYER TO PLAY. NO GAME = NO PLAY.

I was trying to point out YOUR MISTAKE in saying Woodhead PLAYED under Mangini by saying Rex was the Coach because Ryan was the ONLY Coach Woodhead PLAYED under in NY. It was a JOKE.

You were just TOO DENSE too get it. Or you are just too Stuborn to admit you were WRONG in the way you phrased it. I AM DONE trying to explain anything to you ever again because you just REFUSE TO ADMIT your MISTAKE.

Go back & read what I posted again, maybe you will get the joke but I doubt it. This is my final post on the subject, but I have no doubt you will post again to say I was wrong.

Well, I was not wrong, except to think you could get a joke.

Captain Obvious

09-15-2011, 01:55 AM

When Brady and Bellicheat are retired so will Ickyballs4licky from this site

Ickybaluky

09-15-2011, 05:24 AM

FOR THE LAST TIME, I KNEW WOODHEAD signed with the Jets in 2008 when Mangini was HC.

You posted Ryan was HC of the Jets when Woodhead was there. I had to correct you.

I question whether this is really the last time.

better days

09-15-2011, 07:57 AM

You posted Ryan was HC of the Jets when Woodhead was there. I had to correct you.

I question whether this is really the last time.

OK. THIS IS THE LAST TIME. I Posted Ryan was the HC because you said Woodhead PLAYED, NOT when he was there.

He was there when Mangini was HC BUT he DID NOT PLAY AS YOU SAID HE DID.

YOU DID NOT CORRECT ME, I CORRECTED YOU.

BillsOwnAll

09-15-2011, 08:32 AM

ublinkwescore

09-15-2011, 08:34 AM

There is no ******* way are the Dolphins the 30th best team in the NFL.
Florio is a ******.

they might be the third worst though. sorry I had to.

better days

09-15-2011, 09:05 AM

Lol this is redic...pats fans are so dumb... Better days is trying to say "mental reps" isn't playing... Playing is playing... Your talking about practice...practice?... Not the game not the game... Your talking bout practice??? Hahahha playing the game helps you learn the system rather then hearing about it... How can you fix your mistakes if you don't see what your doing wrong?

You are right about all this, but I was just trying to correct him in a joking mannor. He said Woodhead PLAYED under Mangini. Well Woodhead practiced under Mangini, but he did not PLAY. That was the point I was trying to make.

Ickybaluky

09-15-2011, 10:06 AM

OK. THIS IS THE LAST TIME.

I guess it was right to question whether it would be your last time.

So, in summary:

1) First you changed your story on Woodhead

2) Now you are changing your story about it being your last post.

BillsOwnAll

09-15-2011, 12:08 PM

Icky.. Your not right... Clearly you know what he's trying to say and are making yourself look like a fool going on and on about this..

Ickybaluky

09-15-2011, 01:20 PM

Icky.. Your not right...

It has nothing to do with right or wrong.

The fact is, Woodhead played in that offense in minicamps and during the start of training camp. He attended meetings and was part of the team for the entire year, which provided him a base when he came to NE.

Better days had no idea that Woodhead played for anyone but Rex Ryan while with the Jets. He really had nothing to offer in regards to the discussion in general, other than hyperbole.

Then he says he is posting his last post, then keeps posting, really offering nothing new.

I think that about summarizes it. I actually haven't been interested for a while, but I figure I will keep on posting to see how long he will reply, just in the interest of seeing how many "last posts" he has left.

better days

09-15-2011, 01:33 PM

I have some experience being a smug jackass

Well, you know yourself. And you know how to keep things going.

I posted in my first post that you were better than this. Well, I was WRONG. See I can admit when I am wrong. Too bad you can't.

You are NO BETTER than any other jackass Pats* fan.

Ickybaluky

09-15-2011, 02:02 PM

I lost count on how many "last" posts. I think that makes 4. I bet you got more in you.

BillsOwnAll

09-15-2011, 02:25 PM

icky...this is why pats have the worst fans lol...people like you.

Ickybaluky

09-15-2011, 03:22 PM

icky...this is why pats have the worst fans lol...people like you.

That is an unfair statement, and falls into the ignorant hyperbole category. It is a general statement with offers no actual information and insults a wide-range of individuals for no real purpose.

How are you in position to judge a fan-base as the best or worst? You couldn't possibly know a statistically-significant sample size of people in each fan base to make such a comparison. Additionally, I would guess you have a bias towards fans of the Bills, since that is the team you favor, which would eliminate you from making any relevant argument. Even if you feel I am the biggest miscreant you have come in contact with, it would not be fair to hold the entire Pats fan base accountable.

No matter how much you dislike me here, you should realize this merely an online forum and people are probably much different in person. You may think you have an idea of how I am in real life, but that is probably completely different from reality. I try to keep that in mind and not hold personal grudges when posting here. For instance, I recognize that better day is probably a very nice person. That is part of the reason I am trying to inform him about Danny Woodhead first joining the Jets in 2008 when Mangini coached the team. I am not trying to point out where he is wrong, I am just offering him some information he didn't know before.

better days

09-15-2011, 05:04 PM

icky...this is why pats have the worst fans lol...people like you.

Well, his reply to you says it all. Pats* fans are jackasses.

BillsOwnAll

09-15-2011, 05:27 PM

That is an unfair statement, and falls into the ignorant hyperbole category. It is a general statement with offers no actual information and insults a wide-range of individuals for no real purpose.

How are you in position to judge a fan-base as the best or worst? You couldn't possibly know a statistically-significant sample size of people in each fan base to make such a comparison. Additionally, I would guess you have a bias towards fans of the Bills, since that is the team you favor, which would eliminate you from making any relevant argument. Even if you feel I am the biggest miscreant you have come in contact with, it would not be fair to hold the entire Pats fan base accountable.

No matter how much you dislike me here, you should realize this merely an online forum and people are probably much different in person. You may think you have an idea of how I am in real life, but that is probably completely different from reality. I try to keep that in mind and not hold personal grudges when posting here. For instance, I recognize that better day is probably a very nice person. That is part of the reason I am trying to inform him about Danny Woodhead first joining the Jets in 2008 when Mangini coached the team. I am not trying to point out where he is wrong, I am just offering him some information he didn't know before.
Well maybe I can judge them seeing how I grew up and spent my whole life in mass. So I know the fans pretty well. The fan based seemed to double since they won their first super bowl.. And now that they lost there last 4 play off games thefan base Is tapering off. Have you ever been to the stadium? The other teams fans are always the loudest... Why do you think Tom Brady called out his fans and told them to drink and cheer... Your qb shouldn't have to tell your fans to show up... Pats fans are a joke... The whole league knows it..

Ickybaluky

09-15-2011, 10:32 PM

Well, his reply to you says it all. Pats* fans are jackasses.

5!!!

Ickybaluky

09-15-2011, 10:36 PM

Well maybe I can judge them seeing how I grew up and spent my whole life in mass. So I know the fans pretty well.

I can safely say you don't. You are in no way qualified to judge, both because of your personal bias and because you really don't know enough of them to really make any sort of significant analysis.

better days

09-15-2011, 11:08 PM

I lost count on how many "last" posts. I think that makes 4. I bet you got more in you.

See you are WRONG yet again. Let me CORRECT you once more. That post has NOTHING to do with Woodhead. Therefore with a NEW TOPIC, the meter is reset.

It is ALL ABOUT you being a self proclaimed JACKASS & all the jackasses that call themselves Pats* fans. NOTHING to do at all with Woodhead.

I am DONE talking about Woodhead but I will be happy to continue the discussion about you being a JACKASS if you like.

better days

09-15-2011, 11:11 PM

I can safely say you don't. You are in no way qualified to judge, both because of your personal bias and because you really don't know enough of them to really make any sort of significant analysis.

See you are WRONG again. It only takes knowing one Pats* fan to know they are all alike.

Since you are a selfproclaimed JACKASS, we can extrapolate that & deduce ALL Pats* fans are Jackasses.

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 07:37 AM

See you are WRONG again. It only takes knowing one Pats* fan to know they are all alike.

I think we are up to 7.

Your comment makes no sense whatsoever. There are millions of people living in NE (over 6.5 million in MA alone), and he can only possibly know only a fraction of them. Thus, any first-hand experience, and yours, is merely hearsay. That is leaving aside that any interaction taking place here is unlikely to give you an idea of who I really am. I could be a female migrant worker from the Dominican for all anyone here knows.

In terms of his claiming the fan base is "tapering off" and they are the "worst fans", there is no evidence to support it. In fact, there is a large body of evidence to support the opposite.

Consider:

1) The Pats have a consecutive sellout streak that goes back to 1993, so they haven't had trouble selling tickets in good years and poor ones.

2) The Pats have a ticket waiting list with tens of thousands of people on it. To get on the list, you need to fork over $100. While that person get certain benefits in return, it is astounding that so many people are willing to fork over money to just get their name on the list.

3) Local and National TV interest in the Patriots is higher than ever before. If fan interest were "tapering off", they wouldn't be tuning in.

4) The Pats have had consistently strong merchandise sales over the years, among the best in the NFL. They are currently one of the NFL's cornerstone franchises.

5) In a recent (2010) ranking of America's Best Sports Fans (http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/02/best-fans-teams-lifestyle-sports-fandom_slide_13.html), the Patriots ranked #5 across all sports. That is neutral-party testimony from a respected source.

6) The Patriots draw thousands of fans to training camp practices every year, including this past year.

7) Patriots fans travel well to away games. A recent example of this was Miami HC Tony Sporano piping in crowd noise to practice to prepare his team for noise made during the game by visiting Patriots' fans at their home stadium.

8) The team has a Hall-of-Fame at Patriots Place which is open year-round and is very popular. If interest were waning, the HOF would not be such a popular attraction.

9) The Patriots are one of the strongest brands in the NFL and are a huge corporate attraction. Companies line up to be associated with the Patriots, because the brand is strong in the region and it is good business to be associates with it. The latest example of that is Putnam Investments opening the Putnam Club at the stadium (https://content.putnam.com/shared/html/news_commentary/press/press-putnam-club-gillette-stadium.htm), a year-round entertainment facility. Corporate deals like this are one of the reasons why the Patriots are one of the NFL leading revenue-generators, and it is only made possible because fan interest is so strong.

I could go on, but there is a huge body of evidence that points to the Patriots being as popular and strong as ever among their fans.

The only thing you offer in rebuttal is hearsay and hyperbole, which is colored by your obvious personal animosity towards the Patriots and anything related to them (owners, coaches, players and fans). I understand where this comes from, considering the Bills have lost so many games to the Patriots recently.

However, hatred is not healthy and you should try to let it go. I want you to know I do not take it personally, and in fact it is something of a compliment. I remember when the Pats were completely irrelevant, so your irrational hatred of them and anything to do with them is actually quite flattering. You wouldn't do that unless you cared.

I know that the animosity you are showing towards me now is because of this hatred you are hold on to, and because I corrected you about Woodhead. That is OK, I hold no grudge, as I do not hold on to hatred and consider you a fellow American. As Jesus said, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". I pray for you.

God Bless America!

better days

09-16-2011, 07:55 AM

I think we are up to 7.

Your comment makes no sense whatsoever. There are millions of people living in NE (over 6.5 million in MA alone), and he can only possibly know only a fraction of them. Thus, any first-hand experience, and yours, is merely hearsay. That is leaving aside that any interaction taking place here is unlikely to give you an idea of who I really am. I could be a female migrant worker from the Dominican for all anyone here knows.

In terms of his claiming the fan base is "tapering off" and they are the "worst fans", there is no evidence to support it. In fact, there is a large body of evidence to support the opposite.

Consider:

1) The Pats have a consecutive sellout streak that goes back to 1993, so they haven't had trouble selling tickets in good years and poor ones.

2) The Pats have a ticket waiting list with tens of thousands of people on it. To get on the list, you need to fork over $100. While that person get certain benefits in return, it is astounding that so many people are willing to fork over money to just get their name on the list.

3) Local and National TV interest in the Patriots is higher than ever before. If fan interest were "tapering off", they wouldn't be tuning in.

4) The Pats have had consistently strong merchandise sales over the years, among the best in the NFL. They are currently one of the NFL's cornerstone franchises.

5) In a recent (2010) ranking of America's Best Sports Fans (http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/02/best-fans-teams-lifestyle-sports-fandom_slide_13.html), the Patriots ranked #5 across all sports. That is neutral-party testimony from a respected source.

6) The Patriots draw thousands of fans to training camp practices every year, including this past year.

7) Patriots fans travel well to away games. A recent example of this was Miami HC Tony Sporano piping in crowd noise to practice to prepare his team for noise made during the game by visiting Patriots' fans at their home stadium.

8) The team has a Hall-of-Fame at Patriots Place which is open year-round and is very popular. If interest were waning, the HOF would not be such a popular attraction.

9) The Patriots are one of the strongest brands in the NFL and are a huge corporate attraction. Companies line up to be associated with the Patriots, because the brand is strong in the region and it is good business to be associates with it. The latest example of that is Putnam Investments opening the Putnam Club at the stadium (https://content.putnam.com/shared/html/news_commentary/press/press-putnam-club-gillette-stadium.htm), a year-round entertainment facility. Corporate deals like this are one of the reasons why the Patriots are one of the NFL leading revenue-generators, and it is only made possible because fan interest is so strong.

I could go on, but there is a huge body of evidence that points to the Patriots being as popular and strong as ever among their fans.

The only thing you offer in rebuttal is hearsay and hyperbole, which is colored by your obvious personal animosity towards the Patriots and anything related to them (owners, coaches, players and fans). I understand where this comes from, considering the Bills have lost so many games to the Patriots recently.

However, hatred is not healthy and you should try to let it go. I want you to know I do not take it personally, and in fact it is something of a compliment. I remember when the Pats were completely irrelevant, so your irrational hatred of them and anything to do with them is actually quite flattering. You wouldn't do that unless you cared.

I know that the animosity you are showing towards me now is because of this hatred you are hold on to, and because I corrected you about Woodhead. That is OK, I hold no grudge, as I do not hold on to hatred and consider you a fellow American. As Jesus said, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". I pray for you.

God Bless America!

Just more evidence you you being a JACKASS.

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 08:02 AM

Just more evidence you you being a JACKASS.

8!!

I hold no grudge for your animosity about my correcting you about Woodhead, and I am praying for you.

better days

09-16-2011, 08:27 AM

8!!

I hold no grudge for your animosity about my correcting you about Woodhead, and I am praying for you.

Still more evidence of you being a jackass. LYING by saying you corrected me, when I was the one that corrected you JACKASS.

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 08:38 AM

better days

09-16-2011, 08:48 AM

9. I am praying for you. I hold no animosity for your name-calling.

I am willing to let the Woodhead thing go in interest of bringing peace to your soul and allowing you to let go of the hate.

I apologize for correcting you. I am sorry, I should have just let you go on not knowing.

You are not letting go of anything you self proclaimed jackass. You are the person that is keeping this thread going which is fine with me. If you like we can discuss what a jackass you are all season long. AGAIN you did not correct me, you just could not stand the fact that I corrected you.

Jimbuktu

09-16-2011, 08:54 AM

Is this really still going on?

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 08:57 AM

You are not letting go of anything you self proclaimed jackass.

10.

At this point, to be honest, I'm just in it to see how long it takes for you to get over it and let it go.

It just isn't healthy to be so bitter. It doesn't even matter than you thought Woodhead only played for Ryan and never associated him with Mangini. Really, it is OK.

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 08:58 AM

Is this really still going on?

No, look away.

Hopefully the thread will be locked soon (hint! hint!) and it can end. I just can't let it go at this point, I am trying to help better days let go of the hate. We are praying together.

better days

09-16-2011, 09:04 AM

10.

At this point, to be honest, I'm just in it to see how long it takes for you to get over it and let it go.

It just isn't healthy to be so bitter. It doesn't even matter than you thought Woodhead only played for Ryan and never associated him with Mangini. Really, it is OK.

Well, the thread will have to be locked to end because I am not going to let you say you corrected me when I am the one that corrected you. As I said before, you know yourself & have proclaimed yourself to be a jackass. Therefore you won't let it end either.

The fact you are a jackass is evidenced by this thread & like I say I don't care if it goes on all season.

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 09:35 AM

11.

On a side note, I thought Troy Brown has an interesting take (http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/football/patriots/christopher-price/2011/09/16/brown-ochocinco-losing-confidence-game) on the Ochocinco thing, coming from a guy in a position to know:

“If you’re nervous -- and he looks nervous -- if you’re that much in awe of what’s going on around you, then maybe you’re in the wrong place,” Brown said. “Look, no one wanted Ochocinco here more than me. And I still think he’ll be an impactful player somewhere down the line. But you can’t tell me that everything will be fine. I think he’s a cool guy, but if you trusted him, he’d be on the field.

“I don’t care about the numbers -- I just think he doesn’t know what to do out there right now. It looks like he has a lack of confidence, and he’s afraid of being the guy who screws everything up. You can’t be afraid in this league. You can’t go into a game as a receiver in this offense without confidence. When you’re trying to think and play, it just slows everybody down. One second could be the difference in the game, and you can’t play the game if you don’t have the confidence to do it.”

Brown says Ochocinco should be cut some slack because he arrived at the start of training camp. If the deal to acquire the wide receiver would have gone down in the spring, for example, he would likely be much farther along in his acclimation into the New England system.

“He would have had time in the organized team activities and the passing camps and the other offseason programs. Time with Wes (Welker) and Deion (Branch) and Tom,” Brown said. “If the trade had gone through a lot earlier, I think he’d be a lot farther along. If this is something that happened when free agency started, then I think obviously he’d be much farther along. Not sure how much he’d still understand, but obviously it’d be a lot farther along than where he is right now.”

It should be noted that Woodhead had the opportunity to participate in OTAs and passing camps in the off-season program when he played in the offense with the Jets, despite better days saying he never played in that offense.

And according to Brown, the difference between working as a receiver for the Bengals and with the Patriots cannot be measured, and it will take time for the transition.

“Coming from Cincinnati to New England, it can be overwhelming when you come from a system like that and into one like this,” he said. “It’s a whole different word for him right now. He was in that system in Cincinnati for a long time, but it has to be a whole different dimension for him right now.”

better days

09-16-2011, 09:42 AM

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 09:51 AM

12. EXPLAIN to me how ANYONE can PLAY when there is NO GAME to play in. With no game, it is PRACTICE.

12.

I never said he played in a game, I said he played in the offense. He played in the offense, whether it is practice or not. He learned the offense and played the schemes. What did he play in if it wasn't their offense? Did they work him on defense? The guy was there in the offseason for OTAs, passing camps, etc, which is when they put in the offense. Teams put the offense in during the offseason so they can hit the ground running when camp starts. Unfortunately for him, he was injured a couple days into camp. It really isn't that hard to understand.

It boils down to him being there in 2008 when you didn't think he got there until 2009.

ZAZusmc03

09-16-2011, 10:18 AM

:facepalm:

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 10:50 AM

:facepalm:

I don't disagree. If I had admin powers for a day, I would lock this thread and ban myself.

better days

09-16-2011, 11:35 AM

12.

I never said he played in a game, I said he played in the offense. He played in the offense, whether it is practice or not. He learned the offense and played the schemes. What did he play in if it wasn't their offense? Did they work him on defense? The guy was there in the offseason for OTAs, passing camps, etc, which is when they put in the offense. Teams put the offense in during the offseason so they can hit the ground running when camp starts. Unfortunately for him, he was injured a couple days into camp. It really isn't that hard to understand.

It boils down to him being there in 2008 when you didn't think he got there until 2009.

NO I have told you before, I knew he was there in 08. What it boils down to is you don't understand there has to be a GAME in order for a Player to PLAY.

better days

09-16-2011, 11:36 AM

I don't disagree. If I had admin powers for a day, I would lock this thread and ban myself.

Well, you have the power to end this thread, just STOP with your BS. You also have the power to ban yourself.

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 11:45 AM

14.

better days

09-16-2011, 11:50 AM

14.

See you are a LIER as well as a jackass. I knew you did not want this to end.

Ickybaluky

09-16-2011, 01:17 PM

See you are a LIER as well as a jackass. I knew you did not want this to end.

I'm not sure where this comes from, but I forgive you for your name-calling and pray you let go of your bitterness.

15.

BillsOwnAll

09-16-2011, 06:18 PM

Icky as a pats fan do you have nothing better to do then nit pick on a bills message board haha?

better days

09-16-2011, 10:02 PM

I'm not sure where this comes from, but I forgive you for your name-calling and pray you let go of your bitterness.

15.

Not really name calling. You are a self proclaimed Jackass. You have also proven yourself to be a lier. you said if you could lock the thread to end it you would.

Well you have the power to stop the thread by ending your BS, but you really don't want that to happen which is fine by me. We could keep this going all season long.

I have nothing to be bitter about. I am just not going to let you get away with your BS & will call you on it until it stops.

Ickybaluky

09-17-2011, 10:51 AM

16.

I'm not sure why you personalize this so much with name-calling. I was only letting you know about Woodhead's background in the Jets offense in 2008.

You have also proven yourself to be a lier. you said if you could lock the thread to end it you would.

I am not an admin. I said if I could I would lock the thread and ban myself, if given admin power for a day. However, I can not lock threads or ban anyone, thus I have not lied.

better days

09-17-2011, 11:03 AM

16.

I'm not sure why you personalize this so much with name-calling. I was only letting you know about Woodhead's background in the Jets offense in 2008. It really isn't that important.

But you didn't do that I knew ALL ABOUT that. I was just letting you know that a player can't play unless there is a GAME to PLAY in.

Anytime you hear talk about practice, you hear something like "Woodhead participated in practice" NOT "Woodhead played in practice".

My mistake is I didn't spell it out for you, I thought you well smart enough to connect the dots.

You called yourself a jackass & have proven yourself to be so in this thread. You can end this thread NOW if you want to but I know you don't.

Well, as long as this thread continues I will continue to call you what you have called yourself JACKASS.

starrymessenger

09-17-2011, 11:20 AM

The Pats are a football team and a system. Every player, even TB, is just a cog in the wheel. You need to fit in and be totally focussed on your assignments. Even if 85's tweet was inocuous, and Bruschi's reaction can be seen as a blind sided cheap shot, tweeting has always been a vehicle for 85's persona as an "entertainer" rather than a football player. Bruschi is just saying you don't tweet here, you stick your nose in the playbook and do your job. Theres an old hebrew saying "the crooked nail will get hammered down". 85 just got hammered.
Not sure if 85 is a good fit in NE. He has never had to make reads at the LOS and run disciplined patterns, and he has lost a step. There will be no Randy Moss repeat, nothing even resembling it, IMO. If he doesn't perform to a suitable level, it won't be long before Brady turns on him. Remember what he did to Joey Galloway when he could no longer suck it up after a great career. TB had no problem expressing his profound contempt publicly. Pats set high standards and do not tolerate failure very well.
As for the Jets and Pats looking at us over their shoulders, they probably know we will at least be a much tougher out. This weeks game against the Raiders should be a good indication of how much we have improved in areas of need because the 2 things they do well is run the ball and get after the passer.
As for the Finns, I don't buy their 30th power ranking. They had a top 5 D last year and they have gotten beter on thyat side of the ball. Henne also made more and better throws than I have seen in the past, certainly the recent past. I would not take them for granted at all.

better days

09-17-2011, 11:44 AM

16.

I'm not sure why you personalize this so much with name-calling. I was only letting you know about Woodhead's background in the Jets offense in 2008.

I am not an admin. I said if I could I would lock the thread and ban myself, if given admin power for a day. However, I can not lock threads or ban anyone, thus I have not lied.

Well you IMPLIED you wanted the thread to end by the post that said if you had the admin power for a day.

You don't have the power to lock the thread, but you have the power to end the thread by stopping your BS.

You also have the power to ban yourself. Simply don't come on the board. I'm not saying you should do that, I'm just saying you have the power to if you so choose.

Ickybaluky

09-17-2011, 11:53 AM

Not sure if 85 is a good fit in NE. He has never had to make reads at the LOS and run disciplined patterns, and he has lost a step. There will be no Randy Moss repeat, nothing even resembling it, IMO. If he doesn't perform to a suitable level, it won't be long before Brady turns on him. Remember what he did to Joey Galloway when he could no longer suck it up after a great career. TB had no problem expressing his profound contempt publicly. Pats set high standards and do not tolerate failure very well.

I can't argue with any of this, my whole point is it is too early to tell. It is a big adjustment from what Chad did before, and he did not have any offseason work. That is normally when a player learns the offense and gets it down. On top of that, pretty much everyone else he is playing with is already established in the offense and played in it at a high level a year ago. They can't wait for him to catch up.

I think Chad has been working at it and will get it eventually, he just needs time. I respect where Bruschi and other are coming from, but the guy is making a bigger adjustment than people realize. Brady seems to be patient with him, so he is trying. I think he is fitting will so far, despite what people think.

That is no guarantee he will get it, but if he flops I don't think it is because he can't learn the offense. He just needs time to get in sync with what everyone else is dong and get used to making the adjustments they make routinely. If he flops, it will probably be because he can't separate like he used to. I don't think he has lost it physically yet, but with WR you can never tell until the end.

Ickybaluky

09-17-2011, 11:56 AM

18. You are on a roll.

You also have the power to ban yourself. Simply don't come on the board. I'm not saying you should do that, I'm just saying you have the power to if you so choose.

No, I don't have ban powers. I don't think I could stay away, as I have to pray for you.

Mindbender

09-17-2011, 12:08 PM

:popcorn:

better days

09-17-2011, 12:41 PM

18. You are on a roll.

No, I don't have ban powers. I don't think I could stay away, as I have to pray for you.

Well, like I said you know yourself. I really don't want you to ban yourself either because even though you have proven in this thread you can be a jackass, I think you bring something to this board that would be missed if you left.

I will concede I should have made myself more clear in my 1st post & said something like "Come on Icky you know Ryan was the coach when Woodhead PLAYED because you can't play in practice."

I can see where you might think I did not know he was signed by the Jets in 08 by my 1st post because I did not make myself clear. As I said before, I was making an attempt at a joke in the way I posted.

That was the only point I was trying to make in that 1st post, not if Woodhead learned anything or not about the Pats* offense. Just the fact there has to be a game for players to PLAY.

If you will concede there has to be a game in order for players to play, we can end this nonsense.