Who Should Pay for Improvements at the Buffalo Bills Stadium?

[Fitzpatrick'sbeard]

Should taxpayers be responsible for up to $100 million in improvements to Ralph
Wilson Stadium?

http://www.wgrz.com/news/article/139619/37/Debate--Should-Taxpayers-Pay-For-Improvements-to-Ralph-Wilson-Stadium

[better days]

Well, if the people of Western NY want the Bills to stay in Buffalo, the answer is YES.

Remodeling the Ralph will not only help keep the Bills in Buffalo, but also help the economy of WNY by providing construction jobs.

IMO it is about time some State tax money was spent in the Buffalo area.

[clumping platelets]

$1 or $2 surcharge on ALL REGULAR SEASON tickets sold and for ANY other event (i.e. concert) at "The Ralph" for each year of the new lease.

$1 x 70,000 = $70,000 x 7 (8) = $490,000 ($560,000) x 10 yrs = $4.9 to $5.6 million

State and County cover infrastructure improvements (i.e. roads, water, electric, etc) outside the stadium

Bills sell naming rights and use that money for the improvements

That gets you part of the way

[PromoTheRobot]

It should be a combo of fees on tickets and bonds that use revenues from the stadium improvements. Some state money too since NYS earns income taxes on NFL players...the ONLY NFL team that plays in NYS!!! This will not be a handout, it's an investment that pays off over time.

PTR

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well, if the people of Western NY want the Bills to stay in Buffalo, the answer is YES.

Remodeling the Ralph will not only help keep the Bills in Buffalo, but also help the economy of WNY by providing construction jobs.

IMO it is about time some State tax money was spent in the Buffalo area.
Exactly.

[tampabay25690]

Should sell the naming rights to the fans..........

Welcome to the Home of the 12th man Stadium............

[Bill Cody]

Well, if the people of Western NY want the Bills to stay in Buffalo, the answer is YES.

Remodeling the Ralph will not only help keep the Bills in Buffalo, but also help the economy of WNY by providing construction jobs.

IMO it is about time some State tax money was spent in the Buffalo area.

Good luck with that in this economy. I don't see it. The Bills don't have the leverage that the Jets and Giants did in terms of getting 2 states to compete for us. I could see the state ponying up for some infrastructure money for improvments to roads and such but the building itself? You need a new owner with a vision and a large billfold. Just remember Bob Kraft built his new stadium himself with just some infrastructure money- MA basically gave him the middle finger.

[Mike]

Quote:
Should taxpayers be responsible for up to $100 million in improvements to Ralph
Wilson Stadium?


Talk about big business getting hand outs. It's ironic that a league & team that can clearly afford it negotiates this with the city & get tax payer $$$. All really big companies get this type of treatment, from straight up $$$ to not having to pay taxes for decades. That's what it takes to attract big business these days, big business runs the word! Anyways, might be time for another big handout to a big business which can clearly afford to pay for it's own stadium renovation.

[ddaryl]

the Bills generate a ton of revenue, so the tax money is well spent.

I am in favor of a surcharge on tickets and selling naming right as well to offset costs and put some money is a slush fund for the future

[Bill Cody]

the Bills generate a ton of revenue, so the tax money is well spent.

I am in favor of a surcharge on tickets and selling naming right as well to offset costs and put some money is a slush fund for the future

There already is a slush fund....if you open up RW's billfold moths fly out.

[methos4ever]

$1 or $2 surcharge on ALL REGULAR SEASON tickets sold and for ANY other event (i.e. concert) at "The Ralph" for each year of the new lease.

$1 x 70,000 = $70,000 x 7 (8) = $490,000 ($560,000) x 10 yrs = $4.9 to $5.6 million

State and County cover infrastructure improvements (i.e. roads, water, electric, etc) outside the stadium

Bills sell naming rights and use that money for the improvements

That gets you part of the way
Remember Clump, Erie County owns the stadium, so if they want to change the naming rights, they can and they'd pocket the cash. Not like they don't need it, but I think that money trail would get awful fishy...

[BLeonard]

Remember Clump, Erie County owns the stadium, so if they want to change the naming rights, they can and they'd pocket the cash. Not like they don't need it, but I think that money trail would get awful fishy...

Not true...

While Erie county does own the stadium, it is written in the lease that the Bills (Wilson) own the rights to naming the satadium and would gain any monies from selling those rights: http://www.erie.gov/billslease/stadium.phtml



4.2 Naming of Stadium Complex. (a) The Bills shall have the exclusive right to name, or contract from time to time with any Person or Persons on such terms as the Bills may determine with respect to the naming of the Stadium Complex or any portion thereof; provided that (i) the term during which any such name shall apply shall expire no later than the end of the Term (whether due to the attainment of the Stadium Lease Expiration Date or any earlier termination or cancellation thereof) and (ii) given the substantial interest of the County and the ECSC in the Stadium Complex and the public character thereof, the Bills shall not permit any name to be given to the Stadium Complex or any portion thereof except in accordance with this Section 4.2.


While I don't necessarily agree with exclusively using tax dollars to fund stadiums or renovations/improvements, etc. I do feel that some tax money should be used. Reason being, the Bills bring in a lot of revenue to the city that wouldn't be there if the team were not in Buffalo. But, the days of using public tax money to completely fund a new stadium are gone. I'm pretty sure every new stadium recently has had some contribution for sources other than public tax dollars.

I also think that Erie county should be looking to get a bit more out of the Bills than they do in the current lease. Currently, the lease states that only half of the regular season games must be played at RWS... If Erie county is going to assist the Bills in a project costing around $100 million, I don't think Ralph should be allowed to sell games to Toronto, because Erie county gets nothing from those games played in Canada.

So, in short, both Erie county and the Bills should pay for the cost of improving RWS... That's my opinion, but if I were a betting man, Erie County will likely end up footing the bill. In exchange for that, hopefully the new lease will give Erie county more back than it gets under the current lease.

-Bill

[better days]

Good luck with that in this economy. I don't see it. The Bills don't have the leverage that the Jets and Giants did in terms of getting 2 states to compete for us. I could see the state ponying up for some infrastructure money for improvments to roads and such but the building itself? You need a new owner with a vision and a large billfold. Just remember Bob Kraft built his new stadium himself with just some infrastructure money- MA basically gave him the middle finger.

We are not talking about a new stadium like the Giants & Jets built, we are talking about a REMODEL JOB for the only team that plays in NY State & the only team that brings in tax dollars to the state of NY.

[Extremebillsfan247]

http://www.wgrz.com/news/article/139619/37/Debate--Should-Taxpayers-Pay-For-Improvements-to-Ralph-Wilson-StadiumThe bigger question should be how much does this team really mean to you? If it's important to the local community to keep them in Buffalo than you must be willing to make that sacrifice. The Bills are not the Patriots. In all reality, the moment you collectively decide "we wont do it" could be the moment you seal this team's fate. Then western New Yorkers will have no one to blame but themselves if the team moved somewhere else to play like L.A. Just saying.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I am a Bills fan, I love the team. I would put my passion up against anyone. However, I am really sick and tired of this fear that if we don't pony up more money, this team will leave. You can look at it any way you want, but at the end of the day the NFL needs the people in this area a lot more than we need them. This area not only puts butts in the seats, but it is regularly in the top 10 in the ratings for NFL games in the country, sometimes top 5. They are an east coast team. They are in a region that is unique as it is one of the few cities that can draw from Canada, including one of it's major cities. The NFL won't move this team unless there is a real issue, they know the Bills are geographically in a good spot. I don't have an issue with some money going towards the team to help with upgrades and such, but this owner continues to make millions every year while he puts the bare minimum into the football team and then goes and takes one of our home games and puts it in another country. I am just sick of being handcuffed by a man that is a millionaire in a league worth billions, because he won't spend money in his old age.

[stuckincincy]

FWIW - some chit-chat about the Vike's stadium issue:


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/15872266/legislators-say-theyre-willing-to-let-vikings-leave-state

[Jan Reimers]

The Bills are a major plus for Erie County and New York State, in terms of girect tax revenues, dollars generated for the area, and prestige/community pride.

I think the state will pay the $40-100 Million in stadium infrastructure costs, and the county will continue to pay for game day expenses and routine stadium maintenance.

An NFL team is a huge asset which the state and county cannot afford to lose.

[methos4ever]

Not true...

While Erie county does own the stadium, it is written in the lease that the Bills (Wilson) own the rights to naming the satadium and would gain any monies from selling those rights: http://www.erie.gov/billslease/stadium.phtml

-Bill
Duly noted. However, with the Bills also wanting to negotiate the terms of the new deal and not wanting to be tied down to it, why would they have done it to now, when that would have implicity tied them to RWS, if I read that correctly?

If I read that right, up until the point of the expiration, it was essentially a one year at will agreement unless they bought out right?

And Toronto wise, I don't think the NFL will allow them to agree to that. Ultimately, as much as we don't like it, the NFL wants them to generate that Toronto revenue to ensure guys like Jerrah and Kraft are appeased that small market teams are doing their best to maximize revenue...

[better days]

Duly noted. However, with the Bills also wanting to negotiate the terms of the new deal and not wanting to be tied down to it, why would they have done it to now, when that would have implicity tied them to RWS, if I read that correctly?

If I read that right, up until the point of the expiration, it was essentially a one year at will agreement unless they bought out right?

And Toronto wise, I don't think the NFL will allow them to agree to that. Ultimately, as much as we don't like it, the NFL wants them to generate that Toronto revenue to ensure guys like Jerrah and Kraft are appeased that small market teams are doing their best to maximize revenue...

I think the NFL likes the Toronto deal more for the exposure the NFL gets in Canadas largest City than the money Ralph makes from it.

[ddaryl]

I think the NFL likes the Toronto deal more for the exposure the NFL gets in Canadas largest City than the money Ralph makes from it.

then the NFL should give us special treatment for sacrificing our chances at winning a championship... 9 road games is a negative

[BLeonard]

Duly noted. However, with the Bills also wanting to negotiate the terms of the new deal and not wanting to be tied down to it, why would they have done it to now, when that would have implicity tied them to RWS, if I read that correctly?

If I read that right, up until the point of the expiration, it was essentially a one year at will agreement unless they bought out right?

And Toronto wise, I don't think the NFL will allow them to agree to that. Ultimately, as much as we don't like it, the NFL wants them to generate that Toronto revenue to ensure guys like Jerrah and Kraft are appeased that small market teams are doing their best to maximize revenue...

In theory, if they didn't want to be "tied down" to RWS, they could have sold naming rights for the first, say, 5 years of the lease (just an example) which would mean they would only be "tied down" for the first 5 years.

In short, they couldn't sell the naming rights for a longer period than they actually used the building. Hindsight is 20/20, but since they used the building for the full term, (and I honestly don't think they ever planned otherwise) why wouldn't the Bills sell the rights to someone, in order to generate more revenue?

As far as Toronto, the NFL doesn't really have any say after the 5 year deal is up. If you remember, the Bills had to get permission to do the deal. So, if after 2012, the Bills decide not to continue the deal, there's not a lot the NFL can do about it. It's not like they can force the Bills to play in Toronto.

As for the Jonses and Krafts, I don't think the Toronto deal makes a bit of difference to them. I'm pretty sure that the $78 million Ralph got out of the deal was unshared revenue, similar to luxury boxes.

Even if that revenue was shared, to some extent, it's not like the Bills are the only small market team in the NFL. They don't make Jacksonville play games in Cuba to generate more revenue. They don't make the Bengals play in Kentucky, etc.

I'm not an expert on revenue sharing or anything, but I would think that the other owners of the league would benefit more by the Bills selling out a 73,000 seat stadium, as opposed to a 54,000 seat SkyDome. Hell, it's not like teams in large markets (like Miami) are selling out their stadiums with ease, but you never hear anything about them needing to generate more revenue.

-Bill

[stuckincincy]

How much does naming rights add to the owner's bottom line, over the length of the contract with the buyer of same?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/sportsbusiness/news/story?page=stadiumnames


Teams throw away that kind of cash on dud players with some regularity...

[BLeonard]

How much does naming rights add to the owner's bottom line, over the length of the contract with the buyer of same?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/sportsbusiness/news/story?page=stadiumnames


Teams throw away that kind of cash on dud players with some regularity...

Fair point and good info... BUT...

You'd think that, since Ralph seems to constantly harp about beng a small market and being a big proponent (if not THE BIGGEST proponent) of revenue sharing, if someone offered the Bills a million a season for the naming rights to the stadium, well, that's better than not getting anything, right?

Also, while your link has good info, it's from September, 2004... So, it's outdated, to an extent. Let's look at a couple of new stadiums:

Lucas Oil Stadium (Indianapolis): Average of $6.1 million per year ($122 mil over 20 years) http://lucasoilstadium.com/About/Trivia/

Farmers Field (Proposed LA Stadium): $23.3 million per year... That's for a stadium that isn't even built yet: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-23/metlife-sets-25-year-naming-rights-deal-for-jets-giants-new-jersey-stadium.html

I was looking for the deal for MetLife Stadium, but the article above said that the details weren't disclosed, but "The rights package would be around $400 million."

I'm just pointing out that the price tag for naming rights most likely has gone up since the time that that chart you provided was published.

Now, I know that RWS isn't a new stadium and is in a smaller marker (well, smaller than NYC and LA, but fairly comparable to Indy) and that we're talking about a new stadium vs improving an existing stadium, but the point remains... If they could sell naming rights and get a million dollars a year for 10 years, that's $10 million that could, in theory, be used on the stadium improvements, as opposed to having it come out of taxpayers' pockets.

If you're asking for $100 million and someone offers you $10 million, you wouldn't turn it down, right...? Granted, it doesn't foot the entire bill, but it helps.

-Bill

[Michael82]

The New York State taxpayers should pay for the improvements. It's not a lot of money, compared to what they paid to build both the Yankees and Mets stadiums. Plus it's about time that NYS finally gives some money to Western NY, especially when you consider the fact that the Bills are the ONLY NFL team that plays their home games in the state of New York.

[better days]

then the NFL should give us special treatment for sacrificing our chances at winning a championship... 9 road games is a negative

Well, what special treatment would you like to see the Bills get?

[better days]

The New York State taxpayers should pay for the improvements. It's not a lot of money, compared to what they paid to build both the Yankees and Mets stadiums. Plus it's about time that NYS finally gives some money to Western NY, especially when you consider the fact that the Bills are the ONLY NFL team that plays their home games in the state of New York.

I just heard on a Shredd & Ragan podcast that NY State gets $20 Mill/yr guaranteed from the Bills & that number will only go up with rising player salaries.

State Tax money spent to improve the Ralph is an INVESTMENT to ensure the Bills don't leave Buffalo & the State does not lose that tax money.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I just heard on a Shredd & Ragan podcast that NY State gets $20 Mill/yr guaranteed from the Bills & that number will only go up with rising player salaries.

State Tax money spent to improve the Ralph is an INVESTMENT to ensure the Bills don't leave Buffalo & the State does not lose that tax money.

So you spend 100 million to renovate and in year six when you should be in the red, the Bills ask for more renovations?

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

The Bills are a major plus for Erie County and New York State, in terms of girect tax revenues, dollars generated for the area, and prestige/community pride.

I think the state will pay the $40-100 Million in stadium infrastructure costs, and the county will continue to pay for game day expenses and routine stadium maintenance.

An NFL team is a huge asset which the state and county cannot afford to lose.

Asset to what? The population keeps dwindling and there are a handful of businesses that have come here in the last 10 years.

[better days]

So you spend 100 million to renovate and in year six when you should be in the red, the Bills ask for more renovations?

I think you mean the black. Well, if the state only breaks even in the long run, SO WHAT.

As I said spending money to remodel the Ralph will not just help ensure the Bills stay in Buffalo, which there is something to be said for that alone, but also help the economy of WNY by providing well paid construction jobs.

Instead of collecting unemployment, those construction workers will be paying taxes to NY State.

[better days]

Asset to what? The population keeps dwindling and there are a handful of businesses that have come here in the last 10 years.

How many empty houses do you have on your street? There are MANY empty houses here in SW FLA. Many that were never even lived in.

The City of Buffalo may have lost population, but the Buffalo AREA is still large enough to support both the Bills & Sabres.

[Mski]

We are not talking about a new stadium like the Giants & Jets built, we are talking about a REMODEL JOB for the only team that plays in NY State & the only team that brings in tax dollars to the state of NY.false, if you are talking about income tax dollars from players.... any player who plays a game in NYS pays NYS income tax on the money they earn while here, so 7 other teams pay income tax to NYS

[better days]

false, if you are talking about income tax dollars from players.... any player who plays a game in NYS pays NYS income tax on the money they earn while here, so 7 other teams pay income tax to NYS

If the Bills were not in Buffalo, there would be NO TEAM for those other 7 teams to play in NY State so my statement is TRUE.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

How many empty houses do you have on your street? There are MANY empty houses here in SW FLA. Many that were never even lived in.

The City of Buffalo may have lost population, but the Buffalo AREA is still large enough to support both the Bills & Sabres.

I think we are thinking two different ways, it was conveyed they are an asset to making the area look better, that is how I perceived it. Sure, the area can support the team, it has been for years, but it doesn't attract anything like people or business to buffalo. To answer the question, I have four houses on my street for sale and there are eight houses in my area for sale. I am not sure if they are empty or just for sale.

[better days]

I think we are thinking two different ways, it was conveyed they are an asset to making the area look better, that is how I perceived it. Sure, the area can support the team, it has been for years, but it doesn't attract anything like people or business to buffalo. To answer the question, I have four houses on my street for sale and there are eight houses in my area for sale. I am not sure if they are empty or just for sale.

Well if those 8 families are moving out of WNY that is not good. If they are just relocating somewhere else in WNY it is no big deal.

My daughter & son-inlaw bought a house several years back. A new development. Every house on that street was soon filled with owners. Because of the banking BS every single homeowner in that development lost their house. The entire development now sits empty.

My daughter & son-inlaw were lucky enough to buy an even bigger nicer house that some other poor soul lost, but many people have been forced to move out of the State & Florida for the 1st time in many decades has lost population.

Nobody is going to move to Buffalo that never lived there before because of the Bills. What the Bills bring to Buffalo, is a better quality of life. I'm sure you have seen articles of studies about the most desirable Cities to live in. The Bills help Buffalo in that area.

[BLeonard]

I think we are thinking two different ways, it was conveyed they are an asset to making the area look better, that is how I perceived it. Sure, the area can support the team, it has been for years, but it doesn't attract anything like people or business to buffalo.] To answer the question, I have four houses on my street for sale and there are eight houses in my area for sale. I am not sure if they are empty or just for sale.

Gotta disagree here... You think the same people would come to Buffalo (or more accurately, Orchard Park) and spend the same money they do at a Bills game if the team wasn't there?

Using myself as an example, I live in Indiana... I got the chance to go to the 1996 home opener. I paid to rent a car, paid for gas, paid for the game ticket, paid to go into the Fieldhouse afterwards, paid for concessions and paid for souveniers. Not to mention paying to eat at restaurants in and around the area for the duration of the weekend. I can honestly say I went for the specific purpose of seeing the Bills play the Patriots that Sunday afternoon, not to eat at the Orchard Park Cafe or Applebees.

I've recently done a lot of research on using public cash (taxes) for building (or renovating) sports stadiums. Using Buffalo as an example, here's what a lot of people don't realize or think about:

The people that live in Buffalo and go to the games... If the Bills were to move, most of those people would simply spend their "Bills money" on other forms of entertainment. Maybe the Sabres, maybe the Bisons, maybe take up golf, bowling, etc... The point is, those dollars would still stay in the community. But, would the Canadians and other people that come from other parts of the country (or in some cases, the world) still be coming to the area and spending that "Bills money?" I can certainly say, in my case, I would not. I was there for the Bills, as I assume a good chunk of the out of towners that go to the games are there for.

The point is, when these reports are done (especially by the sports teams) saying that the team brings in X amount of revenue, they fail to mention that part of that revenue (the people living in the area) would be spending that money there anyway... If not on the sports team, then something else.

In math terms, the team brings in Z revenue... With Z equaling X +Y...

X being the revenue that local people that spend on the Bills, but would be spent on something else in the community if the Bills weren't there. That money isn't going anywhere if the Bills aren't there.

But, the Y part of the equation is the people that travel to the games and, as a result of wanting to see the Bills, spend money in the area. If the team wasn't there, those people wouldn't be there either and neither would that revenue.

I'll agree that when a sports team says "We bring in X amount of revenue, so we should get this amount of tax money for a stadium, improvements, etc," the "X" that they give is artificially inflated, because the number they give won't tell you that if the team wasn't there, some of those people would spend the money there anyway, so the team doesn't really "bring that revenue in."

But, to say that the Bills don't attract business or people to Buffalo, I can't agree with that. At the very least, the team attracts people (and their additional revenue gained when they spend money) to the WNY area.

-Bill

[better days]

Gotta disagree here... You think the same people would come to Buffalo (or more accurately, Orchard Park) and spend the same money they do at a Bills game if the team wasn't there?

Using myself as an example, I live in Indiana... I got the chance to go to the 1996 home opener. I paid to rent a car, paid for gas, paid for the game ticket, paid to go into the Fieldhouse afterwards, paid for concessions and paid for souveniers. Not to mention paying to eat at restaurants in and around the area for the duration of the weekend. I can honestly say I went for the specific purpose of seeing the Bills play the Patriots that Sunday afternoon, not to eat at the Orchard Park Cafe or Applebees.

I've recently done a lot of research on using public cash (taxes) for building (or renovating) sports stadiums. Using Buffalo as an example, here's what a lot of people don't realize or think about:

The people that live in Buffalo and go to the games... If the Bills were to move, most of those people would simply spend their "Bills money" on other forms of entertainment. Maybe the Sabres, maybe the Bisons, maybe take up golf, bowling, etc... The point is, those dollars would still stay in the community. But, would the Canadians and other people that come from other parts of the country (or in some cases, the world) still be coming to the area and spending that "Bills money?" I can certainly say, in my case, I would not. I was there for the Bills, as I assume a good chunk of the out of towners that go to the games are there for.

The point is, when these reports are done (especially by the sports teams) saying that the team brings in X amount of revenue, they fail to mention that part of that revenue (the people living in the area) would be spending that money there anyway... If not on the sports team, then something else.

In math terms, the team brings in Z revenue... With Z equaling X +Y...

X being the revenue that local people that spend on the Bills, but would be spent on something else in the community if the Bills weren't there. That money isn't going anywhere if the Bills aren't there.

But, the Y part of the equation is the people that travel to the games and, as a result of wanting to see the Bills, spend money in the area. If the team wasn't there, those people wouldn't be there either and neither would that revenue.

I'll agree that when a sports team says "We bring in X amount of revenue, so we should get this amount of tax money for a stadium, improvements, etc," the "X" that they give is artificially inflated, because the number they give won't tell you that if the team wasn't there, some of those people would spend the money there anyway, so the team doesn't really "bring that revenue in."

But, to say that the Bills don't attract business or people to Buffalo, I can't agree with that. At the very least, the team attracts people (and their additional revenue gained when they spend money) to the WNY area.

-Bill

Great post. I think if the Bills were no longer in Buffalo, some people rather than spending their money on other things in WNY would use that money to go on vacation taking their money out of WNY.

[BLeonard]

Great post. I think if the Bills were no longer in Buffalo, some people rather than spending their money on other things in WNY would use that money to go on vacation taking their money out of WNY.

That's a valid point, too... If the Bills left, some people might become Browns fans and spend some (or all) of their "Bills Money" in Cuyahoga County, instead of Erie County.

But, the point of my post was, some of that "Bills Money" will remain in Erie County, so the Bills don't really bring ALL of that revenue in. some will be there regardless.

But, I think, when everything is considered, Erie County would stand to lose a lot more in revenue streams, be it fan spending, player salary taxes, etc, if the Bills leave than the $100 million that would improve the stadium and keep the team here and keep those monies flowing into Erie County.

I'd like to see Erie County get more than they currently get in the lease (especially the lost revenues from having a game in Toronto) but what they are getting currently certainly is better than not having anything at all.

-Bill

[Michael82]

The people that live in Buffalo and go to the games... If the Bills were to move, most of those people would simply spend their "Bills money" on other forms of entertainment. Maybe the Sabres, maybe the Bisons, maybe take up golf, bowling, etc... The point is, those dollars would still stay in the community. But, would the Canadians and other people that come from other parts of the country (or in some cases, the world) still be coming to the area and spending that "Bills money?" I can certainly say, in my case, I would not. I was there for the Bills, as I assume a good chunk of the out of towners that go to the games are there for.

Great point! Especially for a team like the Bills that draws people from Rochester, Ontario, Syracuse and even Albany to watch the games. If I didn't have the Bills games to go to, I would probably spend a lot less time in Buffalo, or at least Orchard Park. My money would probably be saved or I would start getting into Syracuse college football games or more minor league Rochester sports teams.