Peter King: High Level NFL Officials Wish for a 5/3 BFLO/Toronto Split

[SABuffalo786]

Now onto more of your email:
ON THE BILLS IN TORONTO. "You mentioned that you watched the Bill-Redskins game. Just curious as to your thoughts about the Toronto series. It just entered its fourth year, with next year the final year of the agreement. As a life-long Bills fan it pains me to see our games go north of the border -- though I do understand the economics of it. Still, it's clear that the series is not without its problems -- lack of sellouts, loss of home-field advantage, etc. Also, marketing seems to have shifted from building a Bills base in Ontario to getting Bills fans to venture to Canada to watch their team. Looking ahead, where is all this going to go? Is the league office happy with the arrangement?''
-- John, of Buffalo

When I've talked to owners and league officials about the Buffalo-Toronto thing, I sense there are three ways of thinking. One: When the team is owned by someone other than Ralph Wilson, the bottom-line people hope the team is moved to where it'll make more money. Two: Traditionalists hope the team can always have a footing in Buffalo, perhaps in the 5-3 split between Buffalo games and Toronto games. Three: Some owners would love to see an NFL franchise in Toronto. So my real sense is that the league has a lot of mixed feelings about what to do in Buffalo long-term.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/11/01/week.8/index.html#ixzz1ceAS0iQG



I just don't understand why these people can't grasp the concept of just expanding to Toronto and keeping the Bills where they are.

Or how they don't understand that people here will NOT be OK with sharing the team with Toronto. That there will be MANY fans who completely abandon the team and the NFL altogether.

[OpIv37]

The Bills are a regional franchise and Southern Ontario is part of the region.

There is no way the region can support teams in both Toronto and Buffalo. One of the two will inevitably fail.

[ddaryl]

The Toronto series is going to be the nail in the Bills coffin...


BUT if Erie County NYS is going to put renovations in at the Ralph and sign a new lease I would hope that lease stipulates all Bills home games are in Buffalo

[trapezeus]

i think it would be the toronto team that fails. football isn't in its blood. the CFL is more of a canadian identity and toronto people aren't stupid. they aren't going to pay 4x the average ticket price for a new team than go for much less for their favorite team. the remaining people aren't that interested in football.

The bills are profitable as they are. this is just pathetic greed on the NFL's side. these are the decisions that do you in when you f with your longest and more loyal customers. if they just want more LA's, jags and other empty stadiums, then this is the move for them. if they want to continue to have die hard support and incredible ratings, they better take care of all 32 teams.

[SABuffalo786]

The Bills are a regional franchise and Southern Ontario is part of the region.

There is no way the region can support teams in both Toronto and Buffalo. One of the two will inevitably fail.


I have to disagree. For as large and as flush with cash as TO is, I'd have to imagine supporting an NFL team financially wouldn't be an issue at all.

The Bills make money - lots of money. I don't get what the disconnect is....it's not like we have a ton of Canadian corporate sponsorship outside of beer or anything that we'd be competing with a Toronto team over.

3 games in TO and I'm done with this league.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Anymore than 1 game in Toronto spells the end of my following of this team.

[SABuffalo786]

The Toronto series is going to be the nail in the Bills coffin...


BUT if Erie County NYS is going to put renovations in at the Ralph and sign a new lease I would hope that lease stipulates all Bills home games are in Buffalo


Put ALL preseason games in Toronto.........just don't touch the 8 regulars and possible playoffs.

[trapezeus]

people were able to generate an overthrow of egyptian leadership through twitter. if the bills announce a 5/3 split, i will try to start an abandon the bills, they've abandoned us twitter campaign.

[OpIv37]

I have to disagree. For as large and as flush with cash as TO is, I'd have to imagine supporting an NFL team financially wouldn't be an issue at all.

The Bills make money - lots of money. I don't get what the disconnect is....it's not like we have a ton of Canadian corporate sponsorship outside of beer or anything.

3 games in TO and I'm done with this league.

But Southern Ontario- even Toronto- is part of that money that the Bills are making, and some or all of that money would go to Toronto. This, in and of itself, probably wouldn't be a death sentence. However, the Bills are one of the receivers in the NFL's revenue-sharing, and a loss of revenue due to a team in Toronto would mean the Bills would require even more support from the other owners. And they're just not willing to deal with it.

[OpIv37]

i think it would be the toronto team that fails. football isn't in its blood. the CFL is more of a canadian identity and toronto people aren't stupid. they aren't going to pay 4x the average ticket price for a new team than go for much less for their favorite team. the remaining people aren't that interested in football.

The bills are profitable as they are. this is just pathetic greed on the NFL's side. these are the decisions that do you in when you f with your longest and more loyal customers. if they just want more LA's, jags and other empty stadiums, then this is the move for them. if they want to continue to have die hard support and incredible ratings, they better take care of all 32 teams.


I think people in Toronto would be a lot more enthusiastic about their own team than about renting ours for 1/16 of a season.

[ddaryl]

if this is what they want then the NFL should pony up $1.5 Billion and build that state of the art Niagara Falls stadium with the glass encased endzone giving full view of Niagara falls.

Then the WNY/Erie County and NYS AND Ontario can pony up and fix all the roads bridges leading to the new stadium for easier access

[trapezeus]

OP, lets just say that we didn't have a baseball team. And our local baseball fans were all about going to toronto for cheaper tickets for 10-40 years. Now they give buffalo a team but because in this wacky reality i'm creating, bufffalo tickets cost more.

Do people really abandon their bonds to teams because of convenience? I mean people have been more mobile in the last 20 years and most of us still root for our childhood team. I just don't see the die hard bills fans of toronto giving up for a new franchise.

The only way it really works is to move the bills up there full time. but i really hope buffalonians just walk from that deal. The NFL owners and big thinkeres forget that football doesn't need to be the most watched sport on tv. you anger the die hard areas where football is the thing to do for the entire town, your ratings will suffer. and those ratings dip will come in the form of lower tv deals. it'll take time, but it'll be just like the NBA. They went from best to who cares in about 10 years.

[Beebe's Kid]

Are there any good citizens of Canada that would like to weigh in here?

After the home opener, we were talking with a bunch of guys from Canada for good hour before we left, and they said that they wanted the Toronto series to end. They said that it was a much better experience to come to the Ralph. They told us that they lived closer to Toronto than to Buffalo, and that Customs and the drive were non-factors when it came to attending games.

I asked them what they would do if Toronto had its own team, and they said that would be fine, but they were Bills fans, and always had been. They would not switch teams. They were also pretty dismissive of that being a possibility.

I think that there would still be a large amount of the fans that would hold on, but I would be torn...likely jumping ship. That would be like sharing your girlfriend with some other guy, while she was away at school. Although that unknowingly happens quite often, it is not a situation the jilted party is comfortable with once the cards are on the table.

This is why we have to hope that the next owner(s) are loyal to the area.

I know it is somewhat of a long shot for many here, but the possibility of Kelly being able to head an ownership group may be the best hope. It would be a little difficult for the other owners to deny a HOF owner, and hopefully equally difficult for them to force him into a Toronto compromise. I am, by no means, saying they wouldn't try to do either, or both, but it would at least be more difficult than if some random schmuck with deep pockets wants to get into the NFL.

[SABuffalo786]

But Southern Ontario- even Toronto- is part of that money that the Bills are making, and some or all of that money would go to Toronto. This, in and of itself, probably wouldn't be a death sentence. However, the Bills are one of the receivers in the NFL's revenue-sharing, and a loss of revenue due to a team in Toronto would mean the Bills would require even more support from the other owners. And they're just not willing to deal with it.


You're making reference to the 10-15% of the Ralph that comes down from So. Ontario........Bills fans are Bills fans, I really don't think a guy from Hamilton who has been going to the Ralph for years would drop everything the moment a TO club is announced.

There's about the same % of Canadian Sabre fans at Sabre home games and they haven't left in droves to support the Leafs.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

Luckily this isn't Goodell saying it. It's the money rich owners and team officals from Dallas, New York, Boston who are spearheading this.

[sdbillsfan2]

How about the NFL making an exception to the current NFL rules and let the community purchase the Bills ala Green Bay ? The community already extends into Ontario as far as fans, so a base is already established. Green Bay is a smaller market then Buffalo and I never hear whining about them. They've made enough money to field a championship team. So ? Whats the problem ? The probem is the other greedy ass Owners who don't give a crap about Western New York area. The Jerry Jones of the world building modern day Taj Mahals type stadiums , and lining their pockets. So as I see it , you either have to let the community own the team which should happen , or get some big bucks in town who can throw their weight around. I hate the guy, but Donald Trump is egotistical enough to get the job done, but......... I don't trust him long term though.
Changing the current NFL law and letting the people own the team is the most stable option. We'd know one thing for sure..It would be about putting the best team on the field and less about making bucks!!!
I don't know how big a battle it would be the fight the NFL rules in court,what the chances would be for success and what it would cost , but I'd love it if someone stood up to the owners and challenged their greed.

[OpIv37]

OP, lets just say that we didn't have a baseball team. And our local baseball fans were all about going to toronto for cheaper tickets for 10-40 years. Now they give buffalo a team but because in this wacky reality i'm creating, bufffalo tickets cost more.

Do people really abandon their bonds to teams because of convenience? I mean people have been more mobile in the last 20 years and most of us still root for our childhood team. I just don't see the die hard bills fans of toronto giving up for a new franchise.

The only way it really works is to move the bills up there full time. but i really hope buffalonians just walk from that deal. The NFL owners and big thinkeres forget that football doesn't need to be the most watched sport on tv. you anger the die hard areas where football is the thing to do for the entire town, your ratings will suffer. and those ratings dip will come in the form of lower tv deals. it'll take time, but it'll be just like the NBA. They went from best to who cares in about 10 years.

I'm not sure how many "die hard" fans we have in Toronto. Southern Ontario, sure, but the further you get from Buffalo, the less likely there is to be diehard fans, and Toronto is right on that edge.

And, unfortunately, the NFL doesn't give a **** about the diehard fans anymore. It's all about the luxury box and corporate sponsorship. I agree that long-term, it's a bad business model. Small-market teams are really going to be hurting when they have bad seasons and there are no die-hards to buy the jerseys and tickets in the lean years. But, for the moment, it keeps the dough rolling in and that's all they see.

[Jimbuktu]

The bills are profitable as they are. this is just pathetic greed on the NFL's side.

Exactly. Classic money-grubbing ****heads at the top. The damn NFL already prints money!

[Night Train]

The bigger markets will always want the smaller markets to justify revenue sharing by applying pressure to lessen their yearly donation.

They just signed a new long term league deal and will have to live with it, whatever the Bills decide to do.

How can the NFL be sure the Rogers group will blindly give another outrageous amount of $$ (72-80 Mil) upfront to renew. Ted Rogers did it the first time and died 4 months later.

It's a greed thingy with the Jones, Lauries, Krafts of the world and they can cry all they want. Don't even give them the time of day. They make enough and they knew buying in this wasn't a normal business setup. Revenue sharing ( the good of all ) was always part of the deal.

[methos4ever]

The bigger markets will always want the smaller markets to justify revenue sharing by applying pressure to lessen their yearly donation.

They just signed a new long term league deal and will have to live with it, whatever the Bills decide to do.

How can the NFL be sure the Rogers group will blindly give another outrageous amount of $$ (72-80 Mil) upfront to renew. Ted Rogers did it the first time and died 4 months later.

It's a greed thingy with the Jones, Lauries, Krafts of the world and they can cry all they want. Don't even give them the time of day. They make enough and they knew buying in this wasn't a normal business setup. Revenue sharing ( the good of all ) was always part of the deal.
The problem is Night Train they picked Goodell and for all of his pandering when he was here, he answers to them moreso than the small market owners. Which for us, sucks.

[PromoTheRobot]

Build a new stadium in Niagara Falls, Canada. Put all ten games in it. Problem solved.

PTR

[trapezeus]

The bigger teams are all on borrowed money as well with stadiums and new purchases. they are asking the most consistent franchises like the bills, steelers, and packers to pay their debt loads. F them.

you built your taj mahals and need great teams to perform well to get 80% occupancy in a smaller stadium. the ralph fills no matter what. and there is no debt. So frankly, the big market teams are being a drag on the small market teams.

all i'm saying is when a story blows over that the nfl over reached (as its bound to do when the move back into LA) and they start getting backlash on stadium financed on taxpayer dimes, etc, people could easily walk from the nfl. and i have been rooting for this for a while, despite my obsessive love for the bills.

Bills win the championship this year, and i'll be happy as hell. it'll make walking when the nfl makes the wrong choice that much easier.

[DesertFox24]

Bottom line what other NFL owners want is irrelevant. It is what the owner of the bills wants.

I like the current format of one game a year against an NFC opponent. Also if we ever expanded to 18 game schedule then I would give Toronto the extra game.

5-3 split is ridiculous.

Buffalo can have the staying power if the Ralph is upgraded and more luxury boxes are put in, and we need to get some TO businesses to buy some of these boxes and market the bills in TO more. A winning football team for many years will accomplish this in my mind.

[DesertFox24]

Also I do not live in NY, but the WNYers on here should in my opinion start lobbying for tax break incentives to companies and businesses that either start up or move to the WNY area.

It is in the State of NYs best interest to focus on the entire state not just NYC, if WNY can get a revival of industry and companies building new plants in WNY the population will grow and they will get money from those new residents.

For too long the state of NY seems to only focus on NY city and has let the rest of the beautiful state pay for them.

Just my two cents, but Buffalo could become nice business are for aero space, plenty of space to build a new boeing plant, etc...

Also you guys do have access to the Atlantic ocean I believe? You could sell some that idea to shipping, and with Buffalo so close to other cities it could be a good locale to the upper mid west region.

Anyway the politicians needs to do something or WNY will continue to lose residents instead of gain them.

[DesertFox24]

Also buffalo is bigger than Green bay so they have no argument to make the Bills move.

[Skooby]

No.

[RedEyE]

So does the league really get a say in who Ralph can and cannot sell the team too? I mean, I understand there are probably franchise criterea that need be met, but if a potential buyer meets all documented criteria and doesn't want to move the team, can the league really say "Well then, you can't buy the Buffalo Bills unless you split games in Toronto."?

That seem utterly asinine. What potential owner would want to split games and revenue with Toronto?

Two things: 1) I guarnatee Rogers doesn't push the same deal he gave Wilson once this contract closes out. He lost his ass on that deal. 2) The next deal Rogers will attmept to strike up with either Ralph or another potential owner (if he can't buy the team himself) would contain stipulation into profit/revenue sharing. Not a "Here let me write you a giant check that will get me virtually nothing in return.".

[BLeonard]

I don't see this happening.

First off, SkyDome is not adequate for an NFL team. The Bills needed permission to do this and my guess is, the ONLY reason they got permission was because Rogers' group was basically buying all of the tickets to all of the games. I don't forsee Rogers, or any other group, willing to shell out for a similar deal, because the money isn't coming back on their end of the deal. If they had done this Toronto thing without the guarantee of $78 million and relied on selling tickets in the conventional fashion, this thing would have been aborted after one season, IMO. Toronto isn't going to build a new stadium to house a football team for 3 games a season. As I said before, SkyDome isn't adequate to house an NFL franchise on a regular basis that 3 games per year would require.

Second, my guess is, a good chunk of the people that go to the Toronto games do it because it's an event that is a rarity. Similar to the Indy 500, the Bills in Toronto only happens once a year. If there were three Indy 500's a year, the nostalgia factor would be greatly diminished. A great example is the London deal. Yes, they get a bunch of fans for that event that takes place once a year. However, if you multiply the times the event happens, you lose that nostalgia factor. There's a reason that attractions such as the Harlem Globetrotters, the Circus, etc, only happen once a year... If they did it more, they wouldn't do nearly as well at the box office.

Any way you slice it, I HIGHLY DOUBT that the Rogers group has made a profit on their $78 million investment on the Bills Toronto Series thus far. In business, if you're losing money in a deal, you don't extend the deal. While I think lowering ticket prices would help attract more fans, the problem then is the fact that SkyDome holds 20,000 less people than RWS does. You can only lower the prices so much before it is financially wiser to simply play the game in the bigger stadium, which, by the way, IS adequate to handle an NFL team on a full time basis. Regardless of what the NFL suits might want, if the deal doesn't turn a profit for both sides (The Toronto people and the Bills) no deal will be made.

I've said it before, but I would like to see Erie County get a bit more back in the new lease, especially if they are going to provide the Bills with $100 million plus in taxpayer's money. Under the current lease, the Bills are only required to play half of their home games in RWS.

I think that, if Ralph (or whoever the owner is) wants to play games in Toronto, they should reimburse the state the amount of tax dollars used on stadium upgrades, based on how many games are not played in RWS. So, if they play 1 game a year in Toronto, the Bills would reimburse 1/10 of the money (10 home games being 2 preseason and 8 reg season). If I'm a NY taxpayer and you're asking for $100 milion for your stadium, you'd better be using that stadium at every opportunity and not selling games to Toronto (or anywhere else) and, as a result, taking the revenues from those games out of NYS.

-Bill

[TigerJ]

The Bills are a regional franchise and Southern Ontario is part of the region.

There is no way the region can support teams in both Toronto and Buffalo. One of the two will inevitably fail.

Unfortunately, I agree. Buffalo depends on fans from southern Ontario to maintain it's viability. A Toronto franchise will suck those fans away from Buffalo. A 5-3 split will never fly among Buffalo's WNY based fans though.

[Mahdi]

I'm Canadian, from Ottawa actually, been to about 10 games over the last 5 years and I would be real pissed if the Bills moved to Toronto.

Canadians are not good at adopting a new sports team and making it their own. We have had the Senators here in Ottawa since 91 and every time the Leafs come to town our Arena turns blue and it becomes a Leafs home game.

I can say for a certainty that the Bills will never be or be seen the same as they are now. In Toronto they will always be a side show that makes for interesting entertainment.

In Buffalo, the Bills are part of the culture, part of the daily conversation, part of the good times. That will never be replicated in Toronto.

I look forward to my 7 hour drives to Buffalo to see the Bills and also to experience being with Bills fans in our stadium, hopefully that won't change.

[thenry20]

Anymore than 1 game in Toronto spells the end of my following of this team.

If this deal isn't aborted soon and forever I will move on as well.

I don't see a major prob w/playing in TO but it can't be a Bills home game it better be a road game we give up. Just like the London game both teams are playing in neutral territory. This is a fact the NFL can't hide.

[better days]

If this deal isn't aborted soon and forever I will move on as well.

I don't see a major prob w/playing in TO but it can't be a Bills home game it better be a road game we give up. Just like the London game both teams are playing in neutral territory. This is a fact the NFL can't hide.

Well, one team has to be designated the home team. The two times the Bucs played in London, the Bucs were the home team.

There is no way the Bills can expect the Toronto region to embrace the Bills if another team is designated the Home team & if the Bills are not the home team they will not get the money from Toronto they get with the current agreement.

[Mski]

I'm Canadian, from Ottawa actually, been to about 10 games over the last 5 years and I would be real pissed if the Bills moved to Toronto.

Canadians are not good at adopting a new sports team and making it their own. We have had the Senators here in Ottawa since 91 and every time the Leafs come to town our Arena turns blue and it becomes a Leafs home game.

I can say for a certainty that the Bills will never be or be seen the same as they are now. In Toronto they will always be a side show that makes for interesting entertainment.

In Buffalo, the Bills are part of the culture, part of the daily conversation, part of the good times. That will never be replicated in Toronto.

I look forward to my 7 hour drives to Buffalo to see the Bills and also to experience being with Bills fans in our stadium, hopefully that won't change.same thing happens in Buffalo for sabres v leafs games.... but thats because the people from toronto are willing to pay top dollar to go to away leafs games, because they cant afford or get tickets in toronto.... i have friends with sabres season tickets that pay for themselves by selling off the toronto games

[better days]

same thing happens in Buffalo for sabres v leafs games.... but thats because the people from toronto are willing to pay top dollar to go to away leafs games, because they cant afford or get tickets in toronto.... i have friends with sabres season tickets that pay for themselves by selling off the toronto games

That is the thing about Toronto. The Leafs will always be the #1 sport team in that City & #2 is a distant 2nd.

[BertSquirtgum]

I'm so sick of hearing the bull**** about the Bills moving. They aren't going anywhere. Why even bother wasting your time posting about it?

[imbondz]

to me it sounds like Peter King made all that up, doesn't have a clue and just wanted to sound informed. hasn't he always hated the Bills?

[Luisito23]

Anymore than 1 game in Toronto spells the end of my following of this team.


Just another reason why I hate Canada so much.

[Mski]

there's lots of money in TO, and people willing to spend it.....



on the leafs... end of story, they had trouble selling out their baseball stadium when they were winning world series. plain and simple, the money the NFL and the Bills are trying to "get" wont come, becuase they'll always be second fiddle to the NHL in Toronto.

[Novacane]

Build a new stadium in Niagara Falls, Canada. Put all ten games in it. Problem solved.

PTR


No.

[SABuffalo786]

I'm so sick of hearing the bull**** about the Bills moving. They aren't going anywhere. Why even bother wasting your time posting about it?


Can you post the signed 20 year lease extension tying the team to Buffalo when you get a chance?

[BertSquirtgum]

Even if they do move. They haven't yet. Why let the thought of it bother you? Stop posting stupid links that have nothing to do with people running Buffalo Bills or Buffalo Bills football itself.