If you were to grade the re-building process thus far

[2slowtogofast]

Give it a grade so far I say C-. Better than my expectations in august. However way worse then my expectations at the end of september. How do you guys think the re-build is going?

[BLeonard]

F. Show me the baby.

-Bill

[better days]

I would say a B. We all knew the Bills have no depth & injuries have taken their toll.

[bf1]

F. Really no improvements talent wise.

[BLeonard]

We all knew the Bills have no depth & injuries have taken their toll.

The Bills have nobody to blame but themselves for not having depth. There were players available in Free Agency. They could have kept Hangartner. But, apparently somewhere, the NFL rules state the Bills must be $20 million below the salary cap at all times.

-Bill

[PTI]

D is what they get, they have focused on defense for 2 years and there is no change to how bad they are, and Ryan Fitzpatrick is the worst starting QB in the NFL, and I said before the season of all returning QBs who seem to have a grip on the #1 job, he was the worse.

[better days]

The Bills have nobody to blame but themselves for not having depth. There were players available in Free Agency. They could have kept Hangartner. But, apparently somewhere, the NFL rules state the Bills must be $20 million below the salary cap at all times.

-Bill

I guess you forgot how Hangartner played last year. NOBODY any good was available in free agency that wanted to be a Bill.

[DraftBoy]

D and its because they refuse to decide on a system and get the players to fit it. Specifically on defense but also on offense.

[YardRat]

Grade = Incomplete.

[2slowtogofast]

I want to change to a D. We screwed up the spiller pick no real depth like so many others have said and we got this fitz contract hanging over our head that is not looking good so far. The hot start can't make up for all that. I would say F but we beat NE so that counts for somthing to me

[OpIv37]

D in my book.

Their drafting isn't better. Spiller looks like a bust, Troup has done nothing. There is no depth. George Edwards is a moron.

Gailey definitely made some bad coaching choices the past couple of weeks, but I really don't think he's the problem. I definitely think he has done much better than he should have with the garbage that Nix gave him.

The D is still a disaster. I don't know how we can draft so many guys and sign so many guys and STILL have so many holes. We are just spinning our wheels.

[Mr. Pink]

F.

This team is in worse shape now than it was 2 years ago.

[YardRat]

The D is still a disaster. I don't know how we can draft so many guys and sign so many guys and STILL have so many holes. We are just spinning our wheels.

G_ORG_ _DWARDS

Would you like to buy a vowel?

[Mahdi]

D and its because they refuse to decide on a system and get the players to fit it. Specifically on defense but also on offense.
I think every draft pick they've made on defense was with the 3-4 in mind, except for the DBs.

[trapezeus]

I don't know if replacing edwards does much. the bills are still a bad LB team. No pressure, no coverage and then no depth. What exactly are you going to call to make up for that?

The bills, as painful as this is to say, are better at defense than last year. No 200+ yard rushes. A couple games where they actually stopped bad teams. That's a big step forward. They need a LB core and it'll get much better.

Offense, the OL depth isn't there.

How many years are we going to complain about injuries? Injuries happen. i don't know if you can get trainers to fix that, but at least have the team deep enough to be ready for those injuries. I thought the OL did well with the first round of injuries. but with hairston and levtrie out of position, the timing isn't there, the run holes aren't there.

You can blame fitz and the WR's and spiller, but they aren't getting much now.

Fitz needs to put the ball in a catchable space and not get these players dismantled.

I think the rebuild is about a C/C-. Spiller, Troupe, Moats, Carrington, no one is really a stand out player. Tough to call busts, but not good enough at this point.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

Are they any closer to the playoffs? No.

So they fail. F.

[kingJofNYC]

Z

Add Dareus to the list as well, guy gets pushed around. He wasn't even playing the nose yesterday, they had Edwards in there for a lot of reps and even Troup, who actually did something for a change.

For a number #3 pick he's had very little impact on the run D, guy is a waste as of right now. Only dominate game he had was against the ****ty Redskins, also played well against the Giants backup center...lol.

Pathetic. On the other hand, a lot of you wouldn't have taken Newton or Miller ahead of Dareus, and none would've taken Green. "We don't need WRs, we have WRs!" Not like Green.

Armchair GMs on par with Nix I guess.

[EDS]

Who is the best player Nix has added to the roster in his two years at the helm?

[kingJofNYC]

Who is the best player Nix has added to the roster in his two years at the helm?
David Nelson, and that's out of necessity more than anything. If we actually had some capable receivers the guy would've been cut a long time ago, or his reps would've been limited leading to a potential cut.

[BLeonard]

I guess you forgot how Hangartner played last year. NOBODY any good was available in free agency that wanted to be a Bill.

Seems to be doing OK this year... He's starting for Carolina.

As far as Free Agency? Bryant McKinnie's agent said he'd sign a 1 year, $2 million deal... He's currently the starting Left Tackle for Baltimore, who is doing alright, last I checked.

Mark LeVoir was released by the Patriots. He's played in 3 games for Baltimore and 3 for St. Louis in a backup role. he also started one game for each team. He's making less than $700k currently.

Brian Waters was another free agent. He's started in all 9 games for the Patriots this season. His deal is for 2 years for a max total of $5.5 million.

I know the argument: "These guys (McKinnie and Waters) weren't gonna sign with the Bills to be backups, when they could be starters elsewhere."

Fine. But, what happened to the best player getting the starting job? Who here would have complained if we started the season with Levitre and Waters as our starters at Guard, with Urbik and Rinehart as backups?

Fact is, there were players that would have upgraded various positions on the current roster. But, during the preseason, good ol' Buddy kept telling us how much better the guys we had were than everyone else thought. Problem is, while he was saying that, Gailey was playing musical chairs with the same guys that were "better than everyone thinks."

-Bill

[YardRat]

I think every draft pick they've made on defense was with the 3-4 in mind, except for the DBs.

And a DB can be the same player and 'fit' a 34 or 43 defense, as long as you've got a DC that can recognize skill sets and apply appropriate coverage schemes to fit the player's strong suits.

[kingJofNYC]

None of us would have any ****ing idea about Mark LeVoir, or what position he played, if our resident Pats fan wasn't here to point him out. Now he's some free agent get, when he's no better than Pears.

Waters is the only guy worth mentioning.

[BertSquirtgum]

F, the team is just as bad as when they took over. We're ****ed.

[Patti120]

If you are talking about the rebuilding process we've been stuck in for the last 15 years then I'd say we deserve an F.

[BLeonard]

None of us would have any ****ing idea about Mark LeVoir, or what position he played, if our resident Pats fan wasn't here to point him out. Now he's some free agent get, when he's no better than Pears.

Waters is the only guy worth mentioning.

"No better than Pears?" Even if that's true, with the exception of Levitre, Pears is probably the best healthy OLineman we have currently. You're telling me that he wouldn't have been a better replacement at Left Guard when Levitre moved to LT?

Let me ask you something... Who is currently the Bills backup center? They don't have one!

Here's another question: When Wood went on IR, why did the Bills not sign an OLineman to the roster? After all, they admitted in preseason that they "had no depth."

It's all well and good to say a player is "no better than" a current player on the squad. But, you know what? He'd be better than having to shift the entire offensive line around every single week.

Problem is, gimmick players like Spiller sell jerseys. Offensive lineman don't. As a result, the Bills Front Office, led by their marketing guy and accountant, don't care about them nearly as much.

-Bill

[SABURZFAN]

F for FAILING.

[Mski]

they need to rebuild their rebuilding

[DraftBoy]

I think every draft pick they've made on defense was with the 3-4 in mind, except for the DBs.

Troup was a 43 NT, not a 34 NT
Batten and Moats don't fit the 34 either
Sheppard is a good fit along with Dareus but other than that its been mostly what the **** are you thinking picks.

[DraftBoy]

And a DB can be the same player and 'fit' a 34 or 43 defense, as long as you've got a DC that can recognize skill sets and apply appropriate coverage schemes to fit the player's strong suits.

You don't run a cover 2 zone defense coverage with a 34 formation. It defeats the entire purpose of going 34.

Like I said we need to decide what we want to run and get the players to actually fit it.

[RoscoeMagic]

Troup was a 43 NT, not a 34 NT
Batten and Moats don't fit the 34 either
Sheppard is a good fit along with Dareus but other than that its been mostly what the **** are you thinking picks.
Carrington's a 3-4 end isn't he? Where would he fit in a 4-3?

What's Batten and Moats' best position you think, a 4-3 end?

[DraftBoy]

Carrington's a 3-4 end isn't he? Where would he fit in a 4-3?

What's Batten and Moats' best position you think, a 4-3 end?

Played 43 end in college very effectively. Honestly nobody knows what Carrington is at this point because he hasn't been effective.

Batten 4-3 Cover 2 LB, who can put his hand down, Moats a very small 43 DE.

[RoscoeMagic]

Batten 4-3 Cover 2 LB, who can put his hand down, Moats a very small 43 DE.

Sounds a lot like Kieth Ellison and Aaron Maybin to me. This regime is not so different after all. :scratch:

[YardRat]

You don't run a cover 2 zone defense coverage with a 34 formation. It defeats the entire purpose of going 34.

Like I said we need to decide what we want to run and get the players to actually fit it.

Bull****.

Wade Phillips and Dom Capers have always implemented Cover2 zones within their 34 defensive schemes, and they are two of the best.

[Mahdi]

Troup was a 43 NT, not a 34 NT
Batten and Moats don't fit the 34 either
Sheppard is a good fit along with Dareus but other than that its been mostly what the **** are you thinking picks.
Doesn't matter, he was scouted as a 3-4 NT prospect, and you know that so don't know why yer bringing it up.

Again,

Carrington, Troup, Shepp, Dareus were all brought in to play 3-4. Whether they played 4-3 or 3-4 or 46 in college is irrelevant because not many teams run 3-4 in college, which you also know.

Which means you have to scout players you think can convert. Which is why there is such thing as conversion players which scouts always consider and GMs consider when making picks.

Moats and Batten fit the profile of OLBs for a 3-4. Edge rushers in college who have the athleticism and speed to convert. Just because they haven't panned out yet or maybe not ever, doesn't mean they were not a fit. Means they were not talented enough which is no surprise considering they were drafted on day 2 which is a crapshoot. If they were putting up sacks right now you would never question whether or no they were a fit for a 3-4 just as no one questions James Harrison who is the same size as Moats.

[Mahdi]

You don't run a cover 2 zone defense coverage with a 34 formation. It defeats the entire purpose of going 34.

Like I said we need to decide what we want to run and get the players to actually fit it.
We've had this argument before so I'll just put my two cents in...

You can run any coverage behind any scheme. You can run zone behind a 3-4 or even a cover 2 and Man to man and bump and run.

It all depends on the DC and how he wants to attack an offense. Lebeau runs zone schemes behind his 3-4 and cover 2 as well which Tomlin brought over from Tampa.

DBs make zero difference compared to what you're running in your front 7. Some 3-4 teams have big corners, some have smaller corners.

The only theme right now that exists in the league with regards to DBs is that more teams than ever want bigger corners to deal with the amount of big WRs that are in the league that no one can stop.

[Mahdi]

Played 43 end in college very effectively. Honestly nobody knows what Carrington is at this point because he hasn't been effective.

Batten 4-3 Cover 2 LB, who can put his hand down, Moats a very small 43 DE.
How is Batten a cover 2 LB exactly? He's 6'4 250-260. How does that translate to cover 2 OLB?

And since when do cover 2 LBs put their hand on the ground?

And yes Carrington was a solid 4-3 DE in college but coming out he was already almost 290 pounds which means he was always going to be in the 300 range in the pros. He was never going to have the speed or athleticism to be an effect 4-3 DE except for situationally.

[kingJofNYC]

"No better than Pears?" Even if that's true, with the exception of Levitre, Pears is probably the best healthy OLineman we have currently. You're telling me that he wouldn't have been a better replacement at Left Guard when Levitre moved to LT?

Let me ask you something... Who is currently the Bills backup center? They don't have one!

Here's another question: When Wood went on IR, why did the Bills not sign an OLineman to the roster? After all, they admitted in preseason that they "had no depth."

It's all well and good to say a player is "no better than" a current player on the squad. But, you know what? He'd be better than having to shift the entire offensive line around every single week.

Problem is, gimmick players like Spiller sell jerseys. Offensive lineman don't. As a result, the Bills Front Office, led by their marketing guy and accountant, don't care about them nearly as much.

-Bill
How many teams in this league have a bonafied backup center? Few if any, you have guards who can maybe snap the ball in a pinch, those are the types of backups every team has. Rinehart can play the swing guard role, and they felt Levitre could step in if Wood went down, they were wrong, but you don't keep a Center as a backup if he's a **** guard (referring to some who wanted Hang).

They have Sam Young and Brown as backups now, maybe they sign another OL off the street when they IR Jones/McGee.

My problem is, you haven't a clue about LeVoir, probably never watched him play, he's been on 3 teams already this year alone, and yet you want him on this roster. Why, what has he shown you?

Again, you wouldn't have a clue about him if it wasn't for a resident Pat fan.

For all it's worth they can sign any scrub OL, not going to make one bit of difference. Love how you pointed to his salary to in your original post. I'm just perplexed why people keep bringing up LeVoir, he's a nobody.

[kingJofNYC]

We've had this argument before so I'll just put my two cents in...

You can run any coverage behind any scheme. You can run zone behind a 3-4 or even a cover 2 and Man to man and bump and run.

It all depends on the DC and how he wants to attack an offense. Lebeau runs zone schemes behind his 3-4 and cover 2 as well which Tomlin brought over from Tampa.

DBs make zero difference compared to what you're running in your front 7. Some 3-4 teams have big corners, some have smaller corners.

The only theme right now that exists in the league with regards to DBs is that more teams than ever want bigger corners to deal with the amount of big WRs that are in the league that no one can stop.

Well done Mahdi.

Can't play Cover 2 out of a 3-4, what are you nuts? Even though it's more difficult to zone blitz out of a 2 deep shell, Pitt and GB still do it. They blitz out of a two deep shell more than any other team, Lebeau being a Capers disciple.

No clue what Draftboy is going on about. 3-4/4-3 you can run any coverage with either scheme. Heck you can tech your front just like a 4-3 but play a 3-4, your 4th rusher will just have eyes/2pt stance.

[DraftBoy]

Bull****.

Wade Phillips and Dom Capers have always implemented Cover2 zones within their 34 defensive schemes, and they are two of the best.

You want Dallas's corners? Capers has Woodson is a fantastic press guy. You're also confusing the cover 2 zone by the safeties and the straight Cover 2 we run.

Dallas and Green Bay both run Man coverage on the outside with a single or double safety over top. They also press at the line. We run a straight Cover 2 with the CB's, S's, and a LB in straight zone.

So no its not bull****. Do they show straight zone looks sometimes? Of course but they play a predominant man oriented coverage. Its why you run a 34.

[DraftBoy]

We've had this argument before so I'll just put my two cents in...

You can run any coverage behind any scheme. You can run zone behind a 3-4 or even a cover 2 and Man to man and bump and run.

It all depends on the DC and how he wants to attack an offense. Lebeau runs zone schemes behind his 3-4 and cover 2 as well which Tomlin brought over from Tampa.

DBs make zero difference compared to what you're running in your front 7. Some 3-4 teams have big corners, some have smaller corners.

The only theme right now that exists in the league with regards to DBs is that more teams than ever want bigger corners to deal with the amount of big WRs that are in the league that no one can stop.

Completely disagree. Every team runs zone schemes out of every defense, but what kind of coverage does Lebeau predominantly run? Its a man cover scheme with his CB's.

[DraftBoy]

How is Batten a cover 2 LB exactly? He's 6'4 250-260. How does that translate to cover 2 OLB?

And since when do cover 2 LBs put their hand on the ground?

And yes Carrington was a solid 4-3 DE in college but coming out he was already almost 290 pounds which means he was always going to be in the 300 range in the pros. He was never going to have the speed or athleticism to be an effect 4-3 DE except for situationally.

Lack of speed, not a great athlete, stiff hips, and limited range. He tackles well but he struggles in space and and isn't great at disengaging. Batten also is only 6'2, not 6'4. The Bills site (like most team sites) incorrectly lists his height and his weight could be off as well. He was 6'2, 247 at his pro day. When you run the scheme Spags ran in NYG, he would move his LB down, and go with a four man DE front.

Well your last sentence may just hit on what Carrington may be in this league. I like Carrington coming out but his inability to consistently set the edge is beginning to wear quite thin.

[BLeonard]

How many teams in this league have a bonafied backup center? Few if any, you have guards who can maybe snap the ball in a pinch, those are the types of backups every team has. Rinehart can play the swing guard role, and they felt Levitre could step in if Wood went down, they were wrong, but you don't keep a Center as a backup if he's a **** guard (referring to some who wanted Hang).

Since the offensive line has been an issue since Nix and Gailey got here 2 seasons ago, they have done nothing to fix the situation and, during training camp, Gailey was playing musical chairs with the offensive line, because he didn't know where in the hell any of them could play, my thinking is I'd rather have some experience at my backup positions, as opposed to no experience.



They have Sam Young and Brown as backups now, maybe they sign another OL off the street when they IR Jones/McGee.
That's my point... Little to no experience at the backup slots, yet, when Wood went on IR, they sign a D Lineman.



My problem is, you haven't a clue about LeVoir, probably never watched him play, he's been on 3 teams already this year alone, and yet you want him on this roster. Why, what has he shown you?

Again, you wouldn't have a clue about him if it wasn't for a resident Pat fan.

For all it's worth they can sign any scrub OL, not going to make one bit of difference. Love how you pointed to his salary to in your original post. I'm just perplexed why people keep bringing up LeVoir, he's a nobody.
He's shown that he can be a serviceable backup that also has a decent chunk of experience. That's more than we currently have, IMO. As for "you wouldn't have a clue about him," Not all Bills fans live in New York. I happen to live in Indiana and, as a result, get more than my share of information regarding Notre Dame football. So, yeah, I do know who LeVoir is. Have I watched every one of his plays during his career? No, but what I can tell you is that we'd likely be in a much better position if we had LeVoir or Hangartner as backups, or had signed McKinnie or Waters as starters.

But, let's keep letting that $20 million in cap room collect interest for Ralph, while watching the Bills get outscored 106-26 in their last three losses.

Upgrades don't have to be Pro Bowlers or mega stars... They just have to be better than they guy their replacing. IMO, there were players out there that were better than what we currently have.

-Bill

[EDS]

David Nelson, and that's out of necessity more than anything. If we actually had some capable receivers the guy would've been cut a long time ago, or his reps would've been limited leading to a potential cut.

Not encouraging if that is the case. He is a nice third receiver, but . . .

[Extremebillsfan247]

Give it a grade so far I say C-. Better than my expectations in august. However way worse then my expectations at the end of september. How do you guys think the re-build is going?
Starters are not the problem. When healthy, they have beaten some really good football teams this year. I give that a B-. One of the biggest problems is depth. They have no one who is just good enough to step in and play at the level needed to be competitive. D- Which brings us to the Coaching aspect that also gets a D- for not speaking up to the front office knowing it had this potential problem on their hands should starters go down to injury.

My worst grade goes to the front office. They get a big fat F. When you go on the cheap to get players no one else wants, days like this one become inevitable. Fred Jackson is playing at a level we haven't seen around here in a long time, yet he makes less money than Brad Smith, a player that has yet to justify the contract he got from this team. That's just one of the many examples of how Buddy Nix is failing this organization in my opinion. It's time for Nix to be called out.

[Mahdi]

Completely disagree. Every team runs zone schemes out of every defense, but what kind of coverage does Lebeau predominantly run? Its a man cover scheme with his CB's.
Predominantly does not mean ALWAYS. Every team has tendencies and a base defense and style. Point is, you can run any coverage behind any front 7.

Gruden was just talking now on MNF about how KC is using multiple coverages to confuse Brady.

[YardRat]

We've had this argument before so I'll just put my two cents in...

You can run any coverage behind any scheme. You can run zone behind a 3-4 or even a cover 2 and Man to man and bump and run.

It all depends on the DC and how he wants to attack an offense. Lebeau runs zone schemes behind his 3-4 and cover 2 as well which Tomlin brought over from Tampa.

DBs make zero difference compared to what you're running in your front 7. Some 3-4 teams have big corners, some have smaller corners.

The only theme right now that exists in the league with regards to DBs is that more teams than ever want bigger corners to deal with the amount of big WRs that are in the league that no one can stop.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

[YardRat]

You want Dallas's corners? Capers has Woodson is a fantastic press guy. You're also confusing the cover 2 zone by the safeties and the straight Cover 2 we run.

Dallas and Green Bay both run Man coverage on the outside with a single or double safety over top. They also press at the line. We run a straight Cover 2 with the CB's, S's, and a LB in straight zone.

So no its not bull****. Do they show straight zone looks sometimes? Of course but they play a predominant man oriented coverage. Its why you run a 34.

Mahdi already responded to most of this so accurately and wonderfully that I won't waste time and effort trying to repeat his comments.

As far as the bold, completely wrong. You run a 34 to pressure the QB, and pressure the line of scrimmage, not simply so you can play man coverage. The coverage schemes, pardon the pun, are secondary.

[Jan Reimers]

F, as in we are still really F****d up.

[better days]

Seems to be doing OK this year... He's starting for Carolina.

As far as Free Agency? Bryant McKinnie's agent said he'd sign a 1 year, $2 million deal... He's currently the starting Left Tackle for Baltimore, who is doing alright, last I checked.

Mark LeVoir was released by the Patriots. He's played in 3 games for Baltimore and 3 for St. Louis in a backup role. he also started one game for each team. He's making less than $700k currently.

Brian Waters was another free agent. He's started in all 9 games for the Patriots this season. His deal is for 2 years for a max total of $5.5 million.

I know the argument: "These guys (McKinnie and Waters) weren't gonna sign with the Bills to be backups, when they could be starters elsewhere."

Fine. But, what happened to the best player getting the starting job? Who here would have complained if we started the season with Levitre and Waters as our starters at Guard, with Urbik and Rinehart as backups?

Fact is, there were players that would have upgraded various positions on the current roster. But, during the preseason, good ol' Buddy kept telling us how much better the guys we had were than everyone else thought. Problem is, while he was saying that, Gailey was playing musical chairs with the same guys that were "better than everyone thinks."

-Bill

The fact he is starting in Carolina means nothing. He has one of the most mobile QB's in the NFL behind him & the Panthers are losing.

[YardRat]

The fact he is starting in Carolina means nothing. He has one of the most mobile QB's in the NFL behind him & the Panthers are losing.

Hangartner is the type of back-up we need on this team, and really, every team should have. Someone that is capable of playing center in case of injury to your starter, but also able to be slotted inside at guard if one of your interior linemen get hurt.

O-line back-up priority #1 - swing tackle.
O-line back-up priority #2 - center that can slide to guard (NOT vice-versa).

Not having an acceptable back-up for center without disrupting the entire line is just ignorant.

[k-oneputt]

I'll simplify it for you.

Moats, Batten, Troup, Carrington vs. Dareus and Sheppard

Four played minor league college football vs. Two who played the best college football in the country.

I'm sick of drafted these small school players who we bring in and then change their positions. It's hard enough with the huge jump up in competition then we have them changing positions also. It definitely hasn't been working for the Buffalo Bills.

You can throw Mckelvin into the mix to, another Sunbelt superstar.

Give me the SEC superstars.