at our lowest lows as a fanbase, here is hypothetical

[trapezeus]

With Erie county able to give $100MM to stadium renovations do you want that to happen or every household in erie county (~300,000) to divide the $100mm?

In years past i would say, "whatever to keep the bills" but at this point, i think i would rather get $333.34 back

What do you say? thoughts?

[Night Train]

Most people agree with you.

Wilson wants a tax break/free ride but mismanages his professional football team. Upfront TV revenue makes it less important to try and compete.

Even with the new agreement that solidifies revenue sharing for a small market like Buffalo, he still worries far too much about the bottom line. Then donates $$ to have his name etched into buildings. Hmmm...now where did he get that $$ again ?

Profit is primary and winning is secondary.

So the threat of leaving doesn't carry the same weight it did..say, 12 years ago...you remember...when we actually cared about winning..

[Albany,n.y.]

At least part of the $ should be raised with a special tax on all tickets sold. The ticket prices are below market. Just ask anyone who has put tickets on Ticket Exchange how much above face they can get for the good games (December is the exception when the season is down the drain & the weather gets colder). A friend of mine once paid for his whole season by selling about half the games on Ticket Exchange a couple of years ago.
Just add a tax to the tickets & lower the $ needed to a more reasonable level.

[Historian]

Keep the money and issue me a share of stock

[jamze132]

The county should give Ralph the money but with the stipulation he has to spend to the cap, and not cash to cap either. Show me the baby.

[Night Train]

Keep the money and issue me a share of stock

Wait...Are we living in Green Bay ? :up:

[BLeonard]

Keep the money and issue me a share of stock

Ideally, that would be the best answer. It's how Green Bay is paying for their stadium upgrades. Unfortunately, the NFL currently doesn't allow it.

I've said them before, but here are my caveats for them getting the $100 Million:

1. Minimum 15 year lease. They have stated that $100 million would be recouped by player taxes, etc within 5 years. This means that the city/state will receive triple in their investment.

2. No out clauses in the lease. Period. They want the money, the team stays in Buffalo (OK, Orchard Park) for 15 years. No buyouts, no clauses for new owners, nothing.

3. No more Toronto Games. If they're wanting $100 million from the city and state, all home games must be played in the stadium that they are wanting the funds for. If they insist on playing 1/8 of the schedule outside of the stadium, they can pay that 1/8 for the upgrades, since the upgrades would basically be going to waste on an empty stadium, while they whore the team out to Toronto.

I've looked over the current lease multiple times and Ralph has it WAY too good. There are other things I would like to see Erie County get back in the new lease, but the above three things would be a nice start.

I know the majority of people would want some sort of "commitment to winning" clause(s) put in, but in a legal sense, that'd be tough to do... I'm as upset as anyone that they contantly have millions under the cap, but even if they spent it all, that wouldn't guarantee success, especially considering who the Bills have spent their money on in the past.

-Bill

[BillsFever21]

This doesn't affect me any since I don't live in Erie County or NYS for that matter but as long as Wilson is the owner I'm sure there are many more people debating on whether it's worth paying all that extra money in taxes to keep upgrading the stadium and keeping the Bills around and deservingly so.

From my standpoint since it doesn't affect me any of course I would never want the Bills to lose. No matter how much more disgusted I get with them every season I am still a diehard fan and watching the NFL wouldn't be the same if the Bills were gone. Even though I haven't been to a game the past two seasons after attending at least one game for 13 straight years and every single game for 8 straight years up to a couple years ago I still watch every game and get excited for the season to start and root on the team even though my enthusiasm runs dry later in the season after my expectations of the team come to fruition. If the Bills moved I'm not sure if I would still be a fan of them. Especially if their games were not televised every week in my market.

Outside of the Bills games I'm just a casual NFL viewer until the playoffs and there are a lot of weeks I don't catch any other games due to having a life to live outside of football and my work schedule. Every Sunday when the Bills are on I make sure I'm there to watch it unless my work schedule dictates otherwise. Any other plans are out the window for that 3 hour period.

I never get to see any of the MNF games due to my work schedule and the two out of every three Sunday's I have off if I watch the 4pm or 8pm game it's just on a casual basis and if the matchup is crappy or the game isn't close or exciting I will watch or do something else.

If the Bills moved out of my market and the game were not televised every week I doubt I'd pay the almost $400 a year to order the Sunday ticket to see the games. Part of the reason is because it wouldn't be the same and worth the money if they were the LA Bills or wherever else they moved. I'd still follow and root for them since they would be the same players but as far dishing out hundreds of dollars a year to watch the games it's a 50/50 chance I would do it.

If the team name and identity changed and were no longer the Bills that would definitely be the clincher for me and it wouldn't even be a 2nd thought of spending all that money to watch them on the Sunday Ticket. I would just no longer have a favorite NFL team and would just casually watch the games on Sunday, etc.

I don't see me ever being able to become a diehard fan of another team after being a Bills fan since the day I started watching football as a kid if they moved under them circumstances. There would be some teams that I would follow and enjoy watching but it wouldn't matter to me if they won or lost.

I just hope it never does happen but seeing that I'm only in my 30's I could easily see the Bills playing somewhere else in my lifetime. Hopefully it never comes to that but I wouldn't blame the taxpayers of Erie County if they no longer wanted to dish out all that money to pay and keep them there anymore. Although they don't really have a choice in the matter if the county and Wilson(or future owner) agrees on a deal to keep them in Buffalo for decades more to come.

One thing is for sure as long as Wilson is the owner we will continue to be a losing team every season or an average team at best with an outside chance of making the playoffs in a given season but even that is asking a lot. As long as he is the owner the team will stay in Buffalo though but since he is over 90 years old it's only a matter of time. Once we get a new owner all bets are off the table as far as the team staying in Buffalo goes. We will have to wait and see how it plays out.

[YardRat]

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[Johnny Bugmenot]

I know the majority of people would want some sort of "commitment to winning" clause(s) put in, but in a legal sense, that'd be tough to do... I'm as upset as anyone that they contantly have millions under the cap, but even if they spent it all, that wouldn't guarantee success, especially considering who the Bills have spent their money on in the past.

-Bill
It'd be easier than you think. Certainly easier than trying to enforce a no-out-clause contract with an owner that wants to move the team (all it'd take is the Art Modell move; contract the Bills and pick the new team up where they want to put it).

Just put a clause demanding a certain number of wins by a certain threshold, or else face severe financial penalties and/or termination. By focusing on tangible results instead of causes, it puts the burden on the team directly to win. And if they fail, well, we rid the region of losers.

[BLeonard]

It'd be easier than you think. Certainly easier than trying to enforce a no-out-clause contract with an owner that wants to move the team (all it'd take is the Art Modell move; contract the Bills and pick the new team up where they want to put it).

Just put a clause demanding a certain number of wins by a certain threshold, or else face severe financial penalties and/or termination. By focusing on tangible results instead of causes, it puts the burden on the team directly to win. And if they fail, well, we rid the region of losers.

I gotta disagree with that. They've already stated that they were willing to put a clause in the lease that would pay back the entire amount funded if they broke the lease at any time dueing the term and that such a clause would be transferable in an ownership change.

Modell only moved the Browns after many years of Cuyohoga county refusing to help provide funds to improve Municipal Stadium and then, that same county funded construction for both Jacobs Field and Gund Arena.

As long as Erie County (or New York State) provide the funds, The Bills (or a new owner) would not be in the position that prompted Modell's move to Baltimore.

In the end, the lease has to be agreed on by both ends. There's no way any sports team on any level would contractually agree to, in essence, "guarantee" a certain winning percentage over a given period of time, especially not an NFL franchise. The three caveats I had, if the Bills are getting the funding, should be very agreeable:

1. Minimum 15 year lease. They've already said they would do a 10 year lease, to be in concert with the current CBA... Highly doubtful Ralph lives out the entirety of that deal... 5 more years wouldn't be that much of a compromise. Even at 10 years, the county and state would be getting back at least 2x the amount of money they put into the deal.

2. No out clauses in the lease. As I said, they've already said that they would be willing to agree on a clause that, if the lease was broken early, the team would be on the hook for the full amount of money given for the project. This is basically the same thing, just worded differently and gives Erie County and NYS a bit more security that the Bills will be around for the duration of the lease.

3. No more Toronto Games. Don't see why this would be an issue, either. If Erie County and NYS gives them the money they want, they really have no excuse to play games away from that stadium. If they want to play games in Toronto, they should then be responsible for that percentage of the cost, as they would be then voluntarily leaving the stadium in Orchard Park empty during those times. Erie County and NYS should not have to pay for an empty stadium, when the only reason that it would be empty is due to the Bills wanting to get more income elsewhere.

-Bill

[BertSquirtgum]

I live in Niagara County and would give 500 dollars to guarantee the Bills stay in Buffalo for at least another 10 ten years. I don't care how ****ty they are. I love to hate them and hate that I love them.

[Michael82]

I would happily pay another $20-30 per game for my tickets if it meant that the Bills were guaranteed to stay in Orchard Park/Buffalo.

As for the thread itself, Erie County needs to give Ralph and the Bills whatever they need to ensure that the team stays in Orchard Park. They can't let them leave at all! Or they might as well say goodbye to what's left of the economy.

[better days]

With Erie county able to give $100MM to stadium renovations do you want that to happen or every household in erie county (~300,000) to divide the $100mm?

In years past i would say, "whatever to keep the bills" but at this point, i think i would rather get $333.34 back

What do you say? thoughts?

If the County does not spend the money on the Stadium, you don't really think you will see a penny of that $333.34 do you?

I can guarantee they will find somewhere else to spend that money & it won't be going in your pocket.

[YardRat]

It'd be easier than you think. Certainly easier than trying to enforce a no-out-clause contract with an owner that wants to move the team (all it'd take is the Art Modell move; contract the Bills and pick the new team up where they want to put it).

Just put a clause demanding a certain number of wins by a certain threshold, or else face severe financial penalties and/or termination. By focusing on tangible results instead of causes, it puts the burden on the team directly to win. And if they fail, well, we rid the region of losers.

It would be easier to negotiate a contract with a teacher's union that was based on merit pay than it would to get a team to agree to financial concessions based on wins and losses.

In other words...It ain't happenin'...Ever.

[Yasgur's Farm]

The math isn't that simple. The absence of the Bills would be a decline in revenues to Erie County and NYS. Just look at the income tax alone that NYS gets from the players, coaches and staff. Then take a look at the sales tax the state and county get just off what the players families spend... How about the sales tax resulting from home games... and the income taxes from those that provide Bills related services.

That decline in revenues equals higher taxes of all kinds... Income, sales, gas pump taxes etc.

[Michael82]

The math isn't that simple. The absence of the Bills would be a decline in revenues to Erie County and NYS. Just look at the income tax alone that NYS gets from the players, coaches and staff. Then take a look at the sales tax the state and county get just off what the players families spend... How about the sales tax resulting from home games... and the income taxes from those that provide Bills related services.

That decline in revenues equals higher taxes of all kinds... Income, sales, gas pump taxes etc.

and that's why New York state needs to do everything possible to keep the Bills. If they leave, it won't just affect Erie County and Buffalo, NY. It will impact the whole ****ing state! Especially when you consider they are the only NFL team that plays in the state of the New York.

[don137]

I just do not see a no out clause in lease. Having such a clause would drive down the purchasing price off team and we all know Wilson is all about sellingbteam for top dollar with no regard to if team stays in Buffalo.

[DraftBoy]

It'd be easier than you think. Certainly easier than trying to enforce a no-out-clause contract with an owner that wants to move the team (all it'd take is the Art Modell move; contract the Bills and pick the new team up where they want to put it).

Just put a clause demanding a certain number of wins by a certain threshold, or else face severe financial penalties and/or termination. By focusing on tangible results instead of causes, it puts the burden on the team directly to win. And if they fail, well, we rid the region of losers.

It would not be easier, it would be impossible. There is legal standing for a lease deal that mandates X number of wins or winning percentage. This would be the best and fastest way to make the NFL move the Bills.

[DraftBoy]

I gotta disagree with that. They've already stated that they were willing to put a clause in the lease that would pay back the entire amount funded if they broke the lease at any time dueing the term and that such a clause would be transferable in an ownership change.

Modell only moved the Browns after many years of Cuyohoga county refusing to help provide funds to improve Municipal Stadium and then, that same county funded construction for both Jacobs Field and Gund Arena.

As long as Erie County (or New York State) provide the funds, The Bills (or a new owner) would not be in the position that prompted Modell's move to Baltimore.

In the end, the lease has to be agreed on by both ends. There's no way any sports team on any level would contractually agree to, in essence, "guarantee" a certain winning percentage over a given period of time, especially not an NFL franchise. The three caveats I had, if the Bills are getting the funding, should be very agreeable:

2. No out clauses in the lease. As I said, they've already said that they would be willing to agree on a clause that, if the lease was broken early, the team would be on the hook for the full amount of money given for the project. This is basically the same thing, just worded differently and gives Erie County and NYS a bit more security that the Bills will be around for the duration of the lease.


That's not exactly the whole story with Cleveland and Modell. Your story is missing a lot of context and you have made Modell look like a saint, which he is far from.

A No-Out clause is a bad idea, because like another post said you kill the value and nobody here thinks Ralph is going to be around for another 15 years. If we had a new owner it would make more sense but not with Ralph.

Also the No-Toronto games isn't going to happen unless Rogers kills it. Wilson is making too much money and you can't dictate to him whether he can or can't play games in Toronto. Especially since I think his deal with Toronto runs another couple of years so you'd be asking him to break a currently valid contract and open himself, the team, and the county to a civil lawsuit that could dwarf the $100M.

[ddaryl]

we give the team the money and just wait out the inevitable. Ralph will pass eventually

I hate to be that way, but I would be a liar if I said I did not look forward to it, but that's the price of so much ineptness in regards to building a team capable of competing

[BLeonard]

That's not exactly the whole story with Cleveland and Modell. Your story is missing a lot of context and you have made Modell look like a saint, which he is far from.

Not claiming that Modell is or was a "saint." I'm simply saying, the circumstances surrounding the moving of the Browns to Baltimore were primarily due to Cuyahoga county refusing to help the Browns get a new stadium, even though they had no issue funding Jacobs Field for the Indians, along with Gund Arena. You do know that one of the reasons Cleveland got the Browns back as an "expansion team" in 1999 was because they agreed to build a new stadium for them, right?

All's I was saying is, if Erie County and NYS give the Bills the money, they won't have the excuse of "we couldn't get money for the stadium" as an excuse for moving.



A No-Out clause is a bad idea, because like another post said you kill the value and nobody here thinks Ralph is going to be around for another 15 years. If we had a new owner it would make more sense but not with Ralph.

It's only an issue if the new owner would want to move the franchise before the lease is up. The Bills have already said that they would be willing to tie clauses in the lease, which would ensure the team stays in Buffalo throughout the duration. It makes ZERO sense for Erie County and NYS to give Ralph $100 million for a stadium that, if the team moves 2 years down the road, would be pretty much empty.



Also the No-Toronto games isn't going to happen unless Rogers kills it. Wilson is making too much money and you can't dictate to him whether he can or can't play games in Toronto. Especially since I think his deal with Toronto runs another couple of years so you'd be asking him to break a currently valid contract and open himself, the team, and the county to a civil lawsuit that could dwarf the $100M.

The Toronto deal is up following the 2012 season, as is the current lease with Erie County. So, no "currently valid contract" would need to be broken.

Answer me this: Why should the people in Erie County and NYS give Ralph $100 million in tax money for improvements, if he can just turn around and play games in another city/country, by meeting his asking price? Again, that would be improving a stadium that wouldn't be used on a full-time basis. If Ralph wants to play games in Toronto, let THEM use THEIR tax money to upgrade THEIR stadium. Of course, that won't happen, because SkyDone doesn't meet NFL standards and Canadians pretty much refuse to publicly fund sports stadiums.

-Bill

[Buddo]

Not claiming that Modell is or was a "saint." I'm simply saying, the circumstances surrounding the moving of the Browns to Baltimore were primarily due to Cuyahoga county refusing to help the Browns get a new stadium, even though they had no issue funding Jacobs Field for the Indians, along with Gund Arena. You do know that one of the reasons Cleveland got the Browns back as an "expansion team" in 1999 was because they agreed to build a new stadium for them, right?

All's I was saying is, if Erie County and NYS give the Bills the money, they won't have the excuse of "we couldn't get money for the stadium" as an excuse for moving.



It's only an issue if the new owner would want to move the franchise before the lease is up. The Bills have already said that they would be willing to tie clauses in the lease, which would ensure the team stays in Buffalo throughout the duration. It makes ZERO sense for Erie County and NYS to give Ralph $100 million for a stadium that, if the team moves 2 years down the road, would be pretty much empty.



The Toronto deal is up following the 2012 season, as is the current lease with Erie County. So, no "currently valid contract" would need to be broken.

Answer me this: Why should the people in Erie County and NYS give Ralph $100 million in tax money for improvements, if he can just turn around and play games in another city/country, by meeting his asking price? Again, that would be improving a stadium that wouldn't be used on a full-time basis. If Ralph wants to play games in Toronto, let THEM use THEIR tax money to upgrade THEIR stadium. Of course, that won't happen, because SkyDone doesn't meet NFL standards and Canadians pretty much refuse to publicly fund sports stadiums.

-Bill

The simple answer to this, is because it's economically viable for the county/state to put the money up, due to the amount of revenue the Bills raise for them in taxes etc. How many games that takes, isn't exactly relevant, other than ensuring there are enough games to recoup the investment.
If, over the time period of the lease, the taxes etc. coming in are greater than the amount spent, it's a result. The circumstances surrounding how that happens, are largely irrelevant.
Is there an NFL stadium that's used on a full time basis? Don't think so. Most of them are a huge waste of space tbh, when they are barely open the rest of the year.