Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

[BLeonard]

I go to thinking about this the other day...

We all know Stevie Johnson got hit with a 15 yeard penalty for going to the ground during his TD celebration against the Jets.

With the Tim Tebow craze currently going on, I thought to myself "Wouldn't a player kneeling in the endzone be "going to the ground" and as a result, should be called a penalty?"

I don't know if Tebow himself has done this after a TD, but I know for sure that others have many times. Yet, I don't recall ever seing a flag for it.

Hell, while I was researching this, I learned that a Dallas player got hit with a 15 yarder when he accidentally fell during a chest bump: http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nfl...ory?id=5685499

Spiking the football is OK, the chest bump is OK; however, going to the ground -- all part of that celebration -- is a foul, Johnson said. [It's] just like if a guy would go to the ground and do pushups or a guy who would simulate shooting a shotgun in a recoil and knocking them down to the turf and doing a somersault. It all falls in the same category. It is a foul for going to the ground as part of the celebration.

This is from 2010, so obviously, Stevie should have known the rule, as should every other NFL player.

So, my simple quesion is: Why is kneeling in prayer not considered "going to the ground," when every other incident (incuding falling by accident) is flagged?

-Bill

[Scumbag College]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

I think the NFL doesn't want the type of heat it would draw from religious groups if they flagged Tebow for kneeling in prayer. The NFL is incredibly PC and wants to create as few waves as possible.

[BLeonard]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

I think the NFL doesn't want the type of heat it would draw from religious groups if they flagged Tebow for kneeling in prayer. The NFL is incredibly PC and wants to create as few waves as possible.

I get that, but the rule is "no going to the ground." Why not simply pray on the sideline after you come off the field? Or, is there a time limit that God accepts prayers following touchdowns?

If Stevie's T-shirt had said "Praise the Lord," instead of "Happy New Year," would it have drawn a flag?

I'm certainly not defending Stevie here, as he should have known not to test the limits of the rules. It's the consistency of the rule that I have an issue with.

Two shots from the Super Bowl:

This was flagged:

This was not:

I could argue the the player in picture #1 was "praying" before #52 comes into the picture.

What happens when someone kneels in prayer and gets hit for a penalty, because the official "wasn't sure if he was praying or not?"

-Bill

[McBFLO]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

Praying isn't generally looked at as being disrespectful, as crazy as it is.

[Scumbag College]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

I think both pictures are different than what Stevie did in the Jets game. Stevie did a planned situation and was kind of a "in your face" move to Burress. I honestly wouldn't have flagged either of those pics but get why Stevie was flagged.

Now if either of those players did the Dolphin or some break dancing, then definitely flag them with what the rules are now. But I think praying and acting that you were accidentally shooting yourself in the leg when you're playing against the team with the guy that did that are two different things.

I'm not religious, but the act of praying is showing praise to a higher power. Doing a planned routine to draw attention to yourself is different. I'm fine with anything to be honest, I think every touchdown should have a well choreographed dance or taunting of the other team. Makes the game more interesting.

[OpIv37]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

So, my simple quesion is: Why is kneeling in prayer not considered "going to the ground," when every other incident (incuding falling by accident) is flagged?

-Bill

Answer: it's technically against the rules, but the NFL doesn't want to deal with a bunch of loud-mouthed right wing blow-hards playing the victim and saying their freedom of speech and religion is being taken away by the NFL because America is anti-Christian.

From what I've heard about Tebow, he doesn't Tebow until he gets to the sidelines, so that's not a violation of the rule (but I haven't seen most of his touchdowns so I don't know). In the picture you posted, that is clearly a violation of the rule, but it will NEVER be flagged for the reason I stated above.

[BLeonard]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

I think both pictures are different than what Stevie did in the Jets game. Stevie did a planned situation and was kind of a "in your face" move to Burress. I honestly wouldn't have flagged either of those pics but get why Stevie was flagged.

Now if either of those players did the Dolphin or some break dancing, then definitely flag them with what the rules are now. But I think praying and acting that you were accidentally shooting yourself in the leg when you're playing against the team with the guy that did that are two different things.

I'm not religious, but the act of praying is showing praise to a higher power. Doing a planned routine to draw attention to yourself is different. I'm fine with anything to be honest, I think every touchdown should have a well choreographed dance or taunting of the other team. Makes the game more interesting.

Again, not defending Stevie. I get why Stevie got flagged to, and it was stupid of him to do so, especially since the rule has obviously been around since before this season.

My point is, if the penalty is for "going to the ground," the flag should fly whether you go to the ground by accident (unintentionally falling, as the Cowboy in my first post did), or on purpose, whether it be a "crashing jet" or kneeling in prayer.

Again, what happens when an official decides that a player "doesn't look like he's praying" and hits a player kneeling in that way with a flag?

I'll go as far as to say I, personally, am not against praying, either. But, at the same time, if "going to the ground" violates the rule, then I don't see why praying should be excluded.

What happens if more than one player kneels in prayer after a TD? Is that OK, or would it be a penalty due to "group celebration?"

What Stevie did in both instances (Jets and Patriots) was stupid and both, IMO, deserved the flags that they received. I'd just like to see all of the inconsistencies ended is all.

-Bill

[BLeonard]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

From what I've heard about Tebow, he doesn't Tebow until he gets to the sidelines, so that's not a violation of the rule (but I haven't seen most of his touchdowns so I don't know). In the picture you posted, that is clearly a violation of the rule, but it will NEVER be flagged for the reason I stated above.

That's why I didn't say Tebow specifically. I do know that after the game winning pass in OT, Tebow kneeled in the opposing endzone. The game was over, so not much you could really penalize at that point.

But, I've watched a LOT of football and I have seen other players kneel in prayer MANY times before. That's why I was wondering what the difference was.

I think you guys are right... The NFL doesn't want want the drama on their hands if they did flag it. It's a bit like the big stories that come from an athlete not standing for the National Anthem. I just think that's a bit hypocritical of them to allow blatant kneeling, if it's done in the name of prayer, yet they flag a guy who falls by accident.

-Bill

[BLeonard]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

Praying isn't generally looked at as being disrespectful, as crazy as it is.

Not the point. The rule says "no going to the ground," not "don't do anything disrespectful."

Was Stevie's T-shirt saying "Happy New Year" disrespectful? I don't see how it could be, yet he was flagged for it. IMO, Aaron Hernandez's high stepping was more "disrespectful" with more intent to show up the opposition than Stevie's shirt was, yet Hernandez didn't get a flag.

-Bill

[McBFLO]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

Not the point. The rule says "no going to the ground," not "don't do anything disrespectful."

Was Stevie's T-shirt saying "Happy New Year" disrespectful? I don't see how it could be, yet he was flagged for it. IMO, Aaron Hernandez's high stepping was more "disrespectful" with more intent to show up the opposition than Stevie's shirt was, yet Hernandez didn't get a flag.

-Bill

I agree. There was NOTHING disrespectful about Stevie's celebration IMO. There WAS IMO definitely some disrespect/taunting being shown by Hernandez. My point was that I think it was probably a judgement call by the ref. Him praying isnt generally looked at as being disrespectful. Stevie showing his shirt, while I disagree with the flag being thrown, was probably looked at as being excessive in the ref's view. It's a judgement call, which probably is the reason for the inconsistency from last year w/ the "Why So Serious?" shirt and this year's "Happy New Year".

All that being said, I'm not exactly sure of the rule, and if it allows the ref to make a judgement call with regards to praying after a TD.

[OpIv37]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

I agree. There was NOTHING disrespectful about Stevie's celebration IMO. There WAS IMO definitely some disrespect/taunting being shown by Hernandez. My point was that I think it was probably a judgement call by the ref. Him praying isnt generally looked at as being disrespectful. Stevie showing his shirt, while I disagree with the flag being thrown, was probably looked at as being excessive in the ref's view. It's a judgement call, which probably is the reason for the inconsistency from last year w/ the "Why So Serious?" shirt and this year's "Happy New Year".

All that being said, I'm not exactly sure of the rule, and if it allows the ref to make a judgement call with regards to praying after a TD.

The Stevie call was NOT a judgment call.

The NFL rule book specifically forbids "using objects that aren't part of the uniform" in touchdown celebrations. Stevie's T shirt is not part of the official uniform.

It's a stupid rule, but it's the rule and Stevie should have known better. He can't just pick and choose which rules to obey.

[BLeonard]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

All that being said, I'm not exactly sure of the rule, and if it allows the ref to make a judgement call with regards to praying after a TD.

This is pretty much what I'm getting at. Allowing the officials to make a judgemnet call on what is and what isn't "excessive celebration" could potentially open up a can of worms.

Like I said before, Dallas was flagged when a guy fell by accident. While I don't wanna get too much into religion on a football board, what if the official is an Athiest and, in his judgement, thinks that kneeling for prayer after a TD is excessive?

What it boils down to is, if they're going to throw a flag for "going to the ground," it should be flagged regardless of the reason. That way, there's no way an official could use his "judgement" to determine whether the way in which the player went to the ground is acceptable or not.

-Bill

[BLeonard]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

The Stevie call was NOT a judgment call.

The NFL rule book specifically forbids "using objects that aren't part of the uniform" in touchdown celebrations. Stevie's T shirt is not part of the official uniform.

It's a stupid rule, but it's the rule and Stevie should have known better. He can't just pick and choose which rules to obey.

I agree with this an, on top of that, Stevie should have been extra cautious, as he had already been flagged once for excessive celebration in the Jets game. I compare it somewhat to James Harrison's situation... Harrison has to be extra careful about the way he tackles, because he has the rep of being flagged for his actions.

Again, I'm not for a second defending Stevie, or saying either of his incidents shouldn't have been penalties. In fact, the instant he showed his shirt during the New England game, I was screaming "Are you EVER gonna ***** learn?" because I expected him to be flagged for it.

I'd just like the rule to be more consistent than it is. They say going to the ground is a penalty (even if you accidentally fall) but it's OK if you're going to the ground in prayer. Just seems too open to interpretation for my liking.

-Bill

[bf1]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

Maybe Stevie announcing on twitter that he has a td celebration planned draws some attention from nfl officials? Maybe?

[ServoBillieves]

Re: Excessive Celebration: Going to the ground penalty

You pray = no penalty
You spike = no penalty
You dunk = no penalty
You throw the ball = no penalty
You do an elaborate hand shake with teammates = no penalty
You get in a huddle and spin the ball = no penalty
You disrespect Denver by doing the Mile High Salute = no penalty
You pre-determine to spike the ball as hard as you can when you score in New England = no penalty

You lift your shirt, 15 yards and a 20k fine.

Yep, makes complete sense.

This league is complete bull**** when it comes to fines/penalties/rules. These millionaires who are in charge don't realize that logic? I mean... really even Op can't disregard the stupidity behind that rule.

Next time you see someone adjust their pads, prepare for a 15 yard penalty, as long as it's not Denver, New England, Pittsburgh, Dallas, or either of the New York teams.