Bama vs. LSU GDT

[X-Era]

Maze and Upshaw are already impressing. Id take both. And I don't care that Upshaw is 6' 1"... the kid can play. That RB tackle shows he has the range to play OLB IMO.

[tampabay25690]

Defenses are so fast arent they

[X-Era]

I think you will hear some talk of LSUs Montgomery following this game. Very fast DE.

[PromoTheRobot]

I want a Bama win by the score of 3-2.

PTR

[scartown]

I think you will hear some talk of LSUs Montgomery following this game. Very fast DE.

I'm not a Montgomery fan. Once blockers get their hands on him he's pretty much done. I've been watching Upshaw all year and love all aspects of his game. If he's there at 10 I hope the Bills pull the trigger on him.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Upshaw is 6'1.6 so hes basically 6'2... 270lbs!

[tampabay25690]

Great players all over the field

[tampabay25690]

Upshaw height means nothing

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I WANT UPSHAW, IM SOLD, DUDE IS ****ING DOMINATING!!!

[X-Era]

Upshaw height means nothingJust not ideal for a 3-4 Olb. But I totai tend to agree. He can play and has OLB range and strength.

[Extremebillsfan247]

No one wants to draft Alabama TE Brad Smelley? lol We could convert him to guard, play him next to Wood.

[Dying_-2-_Live]

Upshaw is my pick... he is a monster and will be a star

[X-Era]

Guys Id like the most at 10:

1. Blackmon
2. Claiborne
3. Upshaw
4. Reiff
5. Keuchly

And I think its only slightly possible that either 1 or 2 is there at 10... So that means Upshaw IMO.

[X-Era]

I've said it over and over bit Maze is the type of player Id like to replace Parrish... from the draft at least

[Extremebillsfan247]

Guys Id like the most at 10:

1. Blackmon
2. Claiborne
3. Upshaw
4. Reiff
5. Keuchly

And I think its only slightly possible that either 1 or 2 is there at 10... So that means Upshaw IMO.Yeah, I've been on the Upshaw bandwagon for a little while now. I think he'd be a solid addition to the Bills defense.

[X-Era]

Upshaw sack

[kingJofNYC]

Upshaw's sack was meaningeless, but he is playing with a great motor tonight, good instincts too. Making me eat crow, it's not that I don't like him but I don't love him at 10, see him as a mid 1st round pick.

[DrGraves]

I wish we could have this 'bama defense + dareus in place of the current bills D

[kingJofNYC]

Upshaw would have to play Sam backer, don't see him as 4-3 end.

Out of all the Bama players, Kirkpatrick is the most likely to be taken by the Bills, if he's available anyway.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

that dudes injury looks awful

[PTI]

Well, that is a dangerous type of tackle, almost like a WWE move, grabbing the guy and by the jersey and using your weight to take the person down.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

could we get the entire bama d to come play in buffalo?

[Crisis]

WE GET IT, HIS NICKNAME IS HONEY BADGER. YOU DON'T NEED TO USE IT THREE TIMES IN EVERY SENTENCE.

[YardRat]

Roll Tide :beers:

[NOT THE DUDE...]

1 COURTNEY UPSHAW OLB
2 JOSH CHAPMAN NT
3 NICO JOHNSON ILB
4 ROBERT LESTER S
4 MARQUIS MAZE WR
5 DEQUAN MENZIE CB
6 BRAD SMELLEY TE
7 BPA

this would seriously be a great draft!

[tampabay25690]

Just not ideal for a 3-4 Olb. But I totai tend to agree. He can play and has OLB range and strength.

He played OLB in Bamas 3-4.
Actually what I say all nite was a guy that plays down and up very versatile.
sideline to sideline player.
DB still thinks he's a ILB but I do see that at all....

[DraftBoy]

He played OLB in Bamas 3-4.
Actually what I say all nite was a guy that plays down and up very versatile.
sideline to sideline player.
DB still thinks he's a ILB but I do see that at all....

Bama's 34 isn't the NFL's 34. Can he do it? Sure, so could Timmons. However at ILB he could be a dominant player. My issue with his height is that it usually ties in with his arm lenght. Ideal 34 OLB are 6'4 260ish with long arms so they can stay off blocks. Upshaw doesn't have that. He has all the athletic ability you want but the height and long arms do make a difference, which is why a guy like Timmons kicked inside.

[DraftBoy]

1 COURTNEY UPSHAW OLB
2 JOSH CHAPMAN NT
3 NICO JOHNSON ILB
4 ROBERT LESTER S
4 MARQUIS MAZE WR
5 DEQUAN MENZIE CB
6 BRAD SMELLEY TE
7 BPA

this would seriously be a great draft!

No it wouldn't.

[tampabay25690]

Bama's 34 isn't the NFL's 34. Can he do it? Sure, so could Timmons. However at ILB he could be a dominant player. My issue with his height is that it usually ties in with his arm lenght. Ideal 34 OLB are 6'4 260ish with long arms so they can stay off blocks. Upshaw doesn't have that. He has all the athletic ability you want but the height and long arms do make a difference, which is why a guy like Timmons kicked inside.

To me Upshaw can be a versatile player, can play up, play down and yea play the middle. To me he is a nice fit since the Bills have NO IDEA in hell what they wanna run....

[DraftBoy]

To me Upshaw can be a versatile player, can play up, play down and yea play the middle. To me he is a nice fit since the Bills have NO IDEA in hell what they wanna run....

Oh there is no way I'd ever play him in a 43 at DE. He can't disengage.

[tampabay25690]

Oh there is no way I'd ever play him in a 43 at DE. He can't disengage.

you are using big words...LOL
I understand that but he can play all over.

[tampabay25690]

you are using big words...LOL
I understand that but he can play all over.

My guess is the Bills are going DE anyway.......
COPLES may be on the radar for the Bills, especially if we are going 4-3 which I think we will......

[streetkings01]

Upshaw's sack was meaningeless, but he is playing with a great motor tonight, good instincts too. Making me eat crow, it's not that I don't like him but I don't love him at 10, see him as a mid 1st round pick.When your picking #10 theres no difference if you take a guy at #10 or #15.......everybody likes to talk value instead of just getting the guy you want.

[k-oneputt]

Db would rather we pick some stiff from S. Dakota St.
He could come in and we can change his position and all the scouts will pat each other on the back telling everybody what a great find he was. He will then take 3-4 years to develop and they will then cut him .

[EDS]

What is the consensus on Hightower? Looked good lastnight I thought.

[k-oneputt]

What is the consensus on Hightower? Looked good lastnight I thought.

Guy is a baller. I would take him on the Bills anyday.
Probably won't run a great 40 time so some dumbass scout will downgrade him.
Would love to get him in the 2nd or 3rd rd.

[DraftBoy]

you are using big words...LOL
I understand that but he can play all over.

Yes standing up he can, but not with his hand down. That would be a horrible mistake.

[DraftBoy]

Db would rather we pick some stiff from S. Dakota St.
He could come in and we can change his position and all the scouts will pat each other on the back telling everybody what a great find he was. He will then take 3-4 years to develop and they will then cut him .

Im actually not the one advocating for changing a guys position...people wanting to drafting Upshaw for a 43 DE are....

[DraftBoy]

What is the consensus on Hightower? Looked good lastnight I thought.

Top 20, should run in the 4.6's. Doesn't have the range or instincts of McClain but he's only a slight notch below.

[Ed]

I think my favorite player from last night was Dre Kirkpatrick. I didn't realize how tall he is. He would have to be near the top of my list for our first pick if he's available at #10. I really like Cliaborne too, but every mock seems to have him going top 5. Do you guys think Kirkpatrick has a good chance to be there at #10?

If we're not switching to a 4-3 and sticking with our 3-4 hybrid whatever D we run then I like Upshaw too.

[EDS]

Top 20, should run in the 4.6's. Doesn't have the range or instincts of McClain but he's only a slight notch below.

I was hoping he would slip to the Bills in round 2 as they could use a real thumper in the middle like him.

Of course, I really wanted McClain too.

[DraftBoy]

I think my favorite player from last night was Dre Kirkpatrick. I didn't realize how tall he is. He would have to be near the top of my list for our first pick if he's available at #10. I really like Cliaborne too, but every mock seems to have him going top 5. Do you guys think Kirkpatrick has a good chance to be there at #10?

If we're not switching to a 4-3 and sticking with our 3-4 hybrid whatever D we run then I like Upshaw too.

Love Kirkpatrick and I think he's there at 10. The way he attacks the LOS on running plays and bubble screens is fantastic. Also he's a big hitter.

His ball skills need some work but he has the size and speed to be special. He's likely going to be my #1 ranked CB assuming he declares.

I also love Mo Claiborne, I think he's the safer pick over Kirkpatrick.

[DraftBoy]

I was hoping he would slip to the Bills in round 2 as they could use a real thumper in the middle like him.

Of course, I really wanted McClain too.

There is always a shot, though I doubt it.

[cookie G]

No it wouldn't.


We could use a few of their defenders.

That is easily the smartest, most disciplined defense I've seen in years.

They don't get there on athletic ability alone, even though they have some really good athletes.

They are so far ahead of the curve when it comes to assignments (in a complex system), responsibilities, angles of attack, cutting off misdirection, keeping themselves in proper position.

Most of them can subtract .1 or .2 off their 40 time just by knowing where to go, how to get there and not putting themselves out of position.

[tampabay25690]

I think my favorite player from last night was Dre Kirkpatrick. I didn't realize how tall he is. He would have to be near the top of my list for our first pick if he's available at #10. I really like Cliaborne too, but every mock seems to have him going top 5. Do you guys think Kirkpatrick has a good chance to be there at #10?

If we're not switching to a 4-3 and sticking with our 3-4 hybrid whatever D we run then I like Upshaw too.

Kirkpatrick reminds me a bit of Chris McCallister, I remember when he played at Arizona and went on to Baltimore.
Kirkpatrick i like alot....

[tampabay25690]

Love Kirkpatrick and I think he's there at 10. The way he attacks the LOS on running plays and bubble screens is fantastic. Also he's a big hitter.

His ball skills need some work but he has the size and speed to be special. He's likely going to be my #1 ranked CB assuming he declares.

I also love Mo Claiborne, I think he's the safer pick over Kirkpatrick.

I would be thrilled if at #10 the Bills got 1 of these guys.
You can throw them out there from day 1 they are NFL ready....

[psubills62]

I've been saying for a while that Nix loves his CB's. Don't be at all surprised if they draft one of them in the first round.

[EDS]

Corner in round one would be a supremely dumb move for the Bills.

[Ed]

Corner in round one would be a supremely dumb move for the Bills.
Why? This is a passing league. You need great CB's as much as pass rush. If you have a chance to grab one that could be really special for years to come, why be disappointed?

It's very possible that if a guy like Kirkpatrick is available at #10 that he would be the BPA.

I'd rather grab a guy like Claiborne or Kirkpatrick that look like studs right now then use our first pick on a pass rusher with concerns or issues.

And Buddy Nix has already said that he wants to add two CB's. So I think it's safe to expect that we'll grab one early. And maybe the other comes from free agency.

[EDS]

Why? This is a passing league. You need great CB's as much as pass rush. If you have a chance to grab one that could be really special for years to come, why be disappointed?

It's very possible that if a guy like Kirkpatrick is available at #10 that he would be the BPA.

I'd rather grab a guy like Claiborne or Kirkpatrick that look like studs right now then use our first pick on a pass rusher with concerns or issues.

And Buddy Nix has already said that he wants to add two CB's. So I think it's safe to expect that we'll grab one early. And maybe the other comes from free agency.

The Bills have the worst group of linebackers in the NFL and you want to draft a corner in round 1? Top 10 corner is almost as bad a pick as a top 10 running back.

[tampabay25690]

Corner in round one would be a supremely dumb move for the Bills.

Ask Arizona if it was dumb to draft Patrick Peterson.....
Would be dumb????????????? LOL

[DraftBoy]

We could use a few of their defenders.

That is easily the smartest, most disciplined defense I've seen in years.

They don't get there on athletic ability alone, even though they have some really good athletes.

They are so far ahead of the curve when it comes to assignments (in a complex system), responsibilities, angles of attack, cutting off misdirection, keeping themselves in proper position.

Most of them can subtract .1 or .2 off their 40 time just by knowing where to go, how to get there and not putting themselves out of position.

Agreed and if we were going to continue to run a 34 Id have no issue targeting most (if not all of them) the problem is I dont think we will and almost all of those players won't be the best fits for our new system.

That and his values were way off.

[DraftBoy]

I would be thrilled if at #10 the Bills got 1 of these guys.
You can throw them out there from day 1 they are NFL ready....

Agreed but he's going to be a man up CB, not a zone guy which is likely what we'll run in a 43 switch. Cover 2 here we come!

[better days]

Agreed but he's going to be a man up CB, not a zone guy which is likely what we'll run in a 43 switch. Cover 2 here we come!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, please no cover two except in certain situations. I hated watching it in Tampa even when the Bucs were winning & without Sapp & Brooks the Bucs have been terrible on defense since.

[Ed]

The Bills have the worst group of linebackers in the NFL and you want to draft a corner in round 1? Top 10 corner is almost as bad a pick as a top 10 running back.
I want to draft a CB in round 1 if he's the BPA. I don't want to reach for a LB just because it's our weakest position. If you think drafting CB's is dumb then you just don't understand the importance of the position. Plus, we don't know what free agents we're going to sign yet either. And it's not like you can't get good LB's in round 2, or later.

Why do some people always think each year that the only way to address your biggest weakness is with your first round pick?

[k-oneputt]

If they don't take a cb from Troy at #10 and take one from Alabama or LSU I can live with it.
You know, someone who can actually step in and play.

[Ed]

If they don't take a cb from Troy at #10 and take one from Alabama or LSU I can live with it.
You know, someone who can actually step in and play.
Yeah, for me it's not about picking a certain position at #10, it's about picking a great player. You have to hit home runs with top 10 picks. You can't box yourself into a corner and say I can only pick this position.

[k-oneputt]

Yeah, for me it's not about picking a certain position at #10, it's about picking a great player. You have to hit home runs with top 10 picks. You can't box yourself into a corner and say I can only pick this position.

With the holes on this team they can go in alot of different directions.
Personally I would always favor a o-linemen, d-front seven over a back.

[Ed]

With the holes on this team they can go in alot of different directions.
Personally I would always favor a o-linemen, d-front seven over a back.
Me too. Ideally I'd like to see the Bills get a great pass rusher with their first pick, but no one is really jumping out right now. All the top pass rushers seem to have issues.

I wouldn't complain if we got an OT.

But Claiborne and Kirkpatrick are being discussed as top 10 picks for a reason. They both look special.

[X-Era]

CB is absolutely a need and the Brady pass happy offense ought to be making us address it seriously.

Besides, pass rusher may be addressed before the draft even starts.

On Upshaw, I'd make him an SLB in the 4-3 or a 3-4 OLB. We play Moats as a 3-4 OLB, so why not. Dumervil is not tall... yes he plays a different position. No, Upshaw doesn't have ideal height, but he has good range, great strength, and is the type of playmaker we need badly.

[JCBills]

Agreed but he's going to be a man up CB, not a zone guy which is likely what we'll run in a 43 switch. Cover 2 here we come!

Our last 4-3 used a good amount of man to man on the outside, so we'll see. That's how Greer made a name for himself.

[JCBills]

CB is absolutely a need and the Brady pass happy offense ought to be making us address it seriously.

Besides, pass rusher may be addressed before the draft even starts.

On Upshaw, I'd make him an SLB in the 4-3 or a 3-4 OLB. We play Moats as a 3-4 OLB, so why not. Dumervil is not tall... yes he plays a different position. No, Upshaw doesn't have ideal height, but he has good range, great strength, and is the type of playmaker we need badly.

Not sure I'd stick Upshaw in a 4-3 at all. We play Moats at 3-4 OLB because he has similar responsibilities to what he'd have playing 4-3 RE, add some flat coverage and a different gap assignment. I'd much rather look for a 4-3 prospect if that is where we're headed again, and not at 10 if we're talking LB. 3-4 OLB? Sure. 4-3? No thanks, I'd much rather go RE or CB on that side of the ball.

[DraftBoy]

Ask Arizona if it was dumb to draft Patrick Peterson.....
Would be dumb????????????? LOL

I didnt think Peterson was a great CB this year. He actually got picked on a lot. As a punt returner he was dynamite.

[DraftBoy]

Our last 4-3 used a good amount of man to man on the outside, so we'll see. That's how Greer made a name for himself.

True, we'll see.

[DraftBoy]

CB is absolutely a need and the Brady pass happy offense ought to be making us address it seriously.

Besides, pass rusher may be addressed before the draft even starts.

On Upshaw, I'd make him an SLB in the 4-3 or a 3-4 OLB. We play Moats as a 3-4 OLB, so why not. Dumervil is not tall... yes he plays a different position. No, Upshaw doesn't have ideal height, but he has good range, great strength, and is the type of playmaker we need badly.
Because he can't disengage. Dumervil can disengage, Upshaw not so much.

[Night Train]

That has to be the worst big game performance in the history of college football by LSU.

Not crossing the 50 until 52 + minutes are gone and you're the #1 team? Pathetic.

Did they completely forget to prepare ? Les Miles just stood there and didn't adjust and even consider Lee, who can actually throw the ball.

They deserve to be pounded for that non-effort.

[tampabay25690]

I didnt think Peterson was a great CB this year. He actually got picked on a lot. As a punt returner he was dynamite.

Even the best CB's get picked on.

[cookie G]

Agreed and if we were going to continue to run a 34 Id have no issue targeting most (if not all of them) the problem is I dont think we will and almost all of those players won't be the best fits for our new system.

That and his values were way off.

Their system produced one of the most dominant defenses in NCAA history.

Our system produced one of the worst defenses in Bills history, 2 years running.

So in a way you're right, they might not fit our system.

On the other hand, draft them and let them teach our players their system.

[DraftBoy]

Their system produced one of the most dominant defenses in NCAA history.

Our system produced one of the worst defenses in Bills history, 2 years running.

So in a way you're right, they might not fit our system.

On the other hand, draft them and let them teach our players their system.

Teaching is only half the battle, I can teach a guy to run all day long doesn't mean he's ever going to be a sprint champion.

At some point, size, speed, strength, and athletic ability have to come into play.

[DraftBoy]

Our last 4-3 used a good amount of man to man on the outside, so we'll see. That's how Greer made a name for himself.

Im stupid, I mixed up Claiborne and Kirkpatrick.

Dre will be a zone style CB, Mo will be the man up CB.

[cookie G]

Teaching is only half the battle, I can teach a guy to run all day long doesn't mean he's ever going to be a sprint champion.

At some point, size, speed, strength, and athletic ability have to come into play.

Except these aren't Div II limited athletes.

Half of their defense, including most of their front 7, are NFL quality players.

They just have the added bonus of excellent coaching.

[DraftBoy]

Except these aren't Div II limited athletes.

Half of their defense, including most of their front 7, are NFL quality players.

They just have the added bonus of excellent coaching.

Every athlete is limited, this isn't about level. Just look at how many Alabama QB's have gone on to great even good NFL careers (3).

I dont disagree that their entire two deep is likely NFL caliber and they have had tremendous coaching but that doesnt mean they can just play in any system.

Nick Saban only recruits guys that fit his system, that's one of the reasons his system works so well. You dont see them recruiting a guy like Aziz ****tu (5 star DT on Rivals this year) because he's only 6'3, 275 and doesn't fit their system. Instead you see them go after guys like Jarron Jones (4 star, ND commit) who is 6'7, 308 and can hold up at the POA.

We have to take the same philosophy when it comes to the draft. Don't take a guy just because he can run fast, jump high, or has a good pedigree. You take him because he has all of those things and he can fit into the philosophy you're trying to instill.

[k-oneputt]

Every athlete is limited, this isn't about level. Just look at how many Alabama QB's have gone on to great even good NFL careers (3).

I dont disagree that their entire two deep is likely NFL caliber and they have had tremendous coaching but that doesnt mean they can just play in any system.

Nick Saban only recruits guys that fit his system, that's one of the reasons his system works so well. You dont see them recruiting a guy like Aziz ****tu (5 star DT on Rivals this year) because he's only 6'3, 275 and doesn't fit their system. Instead you see them go after guys like Jarron Jones (4 star, ND commit) who is 6'7, 308 and can hold up at the POA.

We have to take the same philosophy when it comes to the draft. Don't take a guy just because he can run fast, jump high, or has a good pedigree. You take him because he has all of those things and he can fit into the philosophy you're trying to instill.

Then why have the Bills, up until last year, been drafting all these smaller school guys that can't play. No need to list them. Everyone should know them by now.

[cookie G]

Every athlete is limited, this isn't about level. Just look at how many Alabama QB's have gone on to great even good NFL careers (3).

I dont disagree that their entire two deep is likely NFL caliber and they have had tremendous coaching but that doesnt mean they can just play in any system.

Nick Saban only recruits guys that fit his system, that's one of the reasons his system works so well. You dont see them recruiting a guy like Aziz ****tu (5 star DT on Rivals this year) because he's only 6'3, 275 and doesn't fit their system. Instead you see them go after guys like Jarron Jones (4 star, ND commit) who is 6'7, 308 and can hold up at the POA.

We have to take the same philosophy when it comes to the draft. Don't take a guy just because he can run fast, jump high, or has a good pedigree. You take him because he has all of those things and he can fit into the philosophy you're trying to instill.

Saban can get lots of 300 lb DT's, and probably convert a bunch of high school DL's and convert them to LB. There's a reason he chooses the players he chooses, and it isn't merely because they have the "look" for his system. They have to be smart enough to follow his direction, take to coaching, and above all, be players.

The Bills have been living off the "players who fit the system" moniker for the last decade.

Schobel, Denney and Kelsay...the protypical 46 D DE's, or at least as close as they could get.

Witner - we're going to a Cover 2 so we need a guy that can cover a lot of ground;
McCargo- we're going to a Cover 2 so we need a 3 tech with a quick first step.
Youboty- we're going to a Cover 2 so we need another Ohio St. pretty boy;

Poz- damn, he's looks like a Cover 2 MLB, doesn't he? We'll put him at MLB, despite the fact that he can't cover, and was a better OLB;

McLovin - we love those DB's. That a little tougher though, I think they thought he could play man. Nonetheless, they passed over better players because of their DB fetish;

Chris Ellis - Ah, the 260-265 lb DE....could he play? Not if you watched him in the Senior Bowl practices against good competition. Nonetheless, he had the look.

Maybin - nuff said.

Troupe - well, we're going to a 3-4, so we need a big fat guy in the middle...can he play? Does it matter? We're going to a 3-4 and we need a big fat guy.

Carrington-Well, we got our NT, now we need the prototypical 3-4 5 tech. He's 6-4 and around 285. Got that look, doesn't he?

Dareus - don't count. Like Ngata, he can play anywhere along the line, in any scheme.

Aaron Williams - well, we're going to a 3-4 and Buddy wants more man coverage, so let's go use the 3rd pick of the 2nd round on a pretty average DB, with average speed, and who played slot DB in college, because he's over 6 feet and 200 lbs.

So what has drafting for the system gotten? They hit on Schobel and Byrd. What's that, 2 out of 14?

A good defense for 2 years (due to the infusion of 3 pro bowlers to go along with Pat Williams and London Fletcher) and about 1 1/2 to 2 seasons of a good pass defense (which wasn't good enough for Buddy, because he wanted man coverage).

In between those years, we've gotten some of the worst defenses in Bills history.

If Nick Saban recruited players merely to fit his system, he wouldn't have a top 50 defense, rather than one of the best defenses in NCAA history. He finds players who can play.

When you put system above whether a player can play, you get what the Bills got.

[k-oneputt]

That was one of the best posts I've seen on this site Cookie.
Although I disagree with you on A. Williams as I see him being a good cb.

[DraftBoy]

Saban can get lots of 300 lb DT's, and probably convert a bunch of high school DL's and convert them to LB. There's a reason he chooses the players he chooses, and it isn't merely because they have the "look" for his system. They have to be smart enough to follow his direction, take to coaching, and above all, be players.

The Bills have been living off the "players who fit the system" moniker for the last decade.

Schobel, Denney and Kelsay...the protypical 46 D DE's, or at least as close as they could get.

Witner - we're going to a Cover 2 so we need a guy that can cover a lot of ground;
McCargo- we're going to a Cover 2 so we need a 3 tech with a quick first step.
Youboty- we're going to a Cover 2 so we need another Ohio St. pretty boy;

Poz- damn, he's looks like a Cover 2 MLB, doesn't he? We'll put him at MLB, despite the fact that he can't cover, and was a better OLB;

McLovin - we love those DB's. That a little tougher though, I think they thought he could play man. Nonetheless, they passed over better players because of their DB fetish;

Chris Ellis - Ah, the 260-265 lb DE....could he play? Not if you watched him in the Senior Bowl practices against good competition. Nonetheless, he had the look.

Maybin - nuff said.

Troupe - well, we're going to a 3-4, so we need a big fat guy in the middle...can he play? Does it matter? We're going to a 3-4 and we need a big fat guy.

Carrington-Well, we got our NT, now we need the prototypical 3-4 5 tech. He's 6-4 and around 285. Got that look, doesn't he?

Dareus - don't count. Like Ngata, he can play anywhere along the line, in any scheme.

Aaron Williams - well, we're going to a 3-4 and Buddy wants more man coverage, so let's go use the 3rd pick of the 2nd round on a pretty average DB, with average speed, and who played slot DB in college, because he's over 6 feet and 200 lbs.

So what has drafting for the system gotten? They hit on Schobel and Byrd. What's that, 2 out of 14?

A good defense for 2 years (due to the infusion of 3 pro bowlers to go along with Pat Williams and London Fletcher) and about 1 1/2 to 2 seasons of a good pass defense (which wasn't good enough for Buddy, because he wanted man coverage).

In between those years, we've gotten some of the worst defenses in Bills history.

If Nick Saban recruited players merely to fit his system, he wouldn't have a top 50 defense, rather than one of the best defenses in NCAA history. He finds players who can play.

When you put system above whether a player can play, you get what the Bills got.

I wouldnt argue that many of those guys you mention were actually take to fit our system, but rather were taken as almost contrary picks to the system we ran.

None of Schobel, Denny, or Kelsay are prototypical 46 DE's. If you want to see a prototypical 46 DE look at how PHI would use Trent Cole and Jason Babin this year when they move them out to the 9 tech. Quick first step DE's who can take advantage of the angle. None of those three are those guys.

Whitner was an in the box S not necessairly a Cover 2 guy.

McCargo was just an atrocious pick, maybe our worst ever.

Youboty yes he was a Cover 2 CB, McKelvin though ran mostly man up bump coverage at Troy. He was not a Cover 2 CB.

Ellis was a 34 OLB prospect who never should been playing with his hand on the ground, Maybin is only slightly behind McCargo as worthless.

Troupe was a gross over reach and had never played 34 NT before so he wasn't really a fit pick either.

Carrington was a solid pick and I still think he has something to contribute, but again came out of a 43, we moved him to a 34.

Like I said I dont think we've drafted to fit our system at all in recent years.

[cookie G]

I wouldnt argue that many of those guys you mention were actually take to fit our system, but rather were taken as almost contrary picks to the system we ran.

None of Schobel, Denny, or Kelsay are prototypical 46 DE's. If you want to see a prototypical 46 DE look at how PHI would use Trent Cole and Jason Babin this year when they move them out to the 9 tech. Quick first step DE's who can take advantage of the angle. None of those three are those guys.

It isn't how they ended up, it is how they were perceived at the time. Kelsay especially, was a guy that lived in the backfield at Nebraska. Except against good competition, that is. He wasn't brought in for his POA stoutness.

Therein lies the problem. We draft guys who have the "look".



Whitner was an in the box S not necessairly a Cover 2 guy.

Whitner is quite possibly the worst run support SS we've had in recent times, his self perception notwithstanding. When he wasn't getting bowled over, he was taking terrible angles or leaving his jock on the field via a cutback move.

But on one out of 5 plays, he'd get past someone, may a tackle at the LOS, and people would ooh and ahh and talk about how good he was in run support.

I'm sure that's how the Bills saw him too, the next Bob Sanders. That C2 safety you could sneak up and plug a gap on run support. He wasn't. Not even close.

Compounding the fact that he couldn't cover a TE, basically, he was good for over the top deep help.



McCargo was just an atrocious pick, maybe our worst ever.

And he fit the "look" of a C2 3 tech to a T.




Ellis was a 34 OLB prospect who never should been playing with his hand on the ground,

Well that's not how the Bills saw him when they drafted him. They had no intent on putting him at OLB, because they wanted their LB's at 225lbs or less.

He fit their image as a C2 DE. 260-265 lbs. had some success in college against some of the slower RT's. He had the look.



Maybin is only slightly behind McCargo as worthless.



Troupe was a gross over reach and had never played 34 NT before so he wasn't really a fit pick either.

Yes, he was an overreach. Because they switched to a 34 and were looking for a NT. He weighed around 320. That's probably about as far as the analysis went. It really didn't matter whether he played NT before. He weighed 320 lbs and we needed a fat guy at NT.

Thus the problem of drafting people merely for scheme.



Carrington was a solid pick and I still think he has something to contribute, but again came out of a 43, we moved him to a 34.

he's a 3rd round pick that contributed more than Christ Ellis. But he's 6'4 285-290. That's how they saw him.

Average against the run,
below average pass rusher
when playing LB, well below average in coverage.



Like I said I dont think we've drafted to fit our system at all in recent years.

Every one of those guys I mentioned had the size characteristics for the position they were originally placed. They had the "look" for "what we were trying to do" at the time.

And this is exactly why looks can be deceiving.

[cookie G]

That was one of the best posts I've seen on this site Cookie.

Wait for it.

Wanny comes in as DC.
Now the emphasis is on the 4-3 and speed on the edge.

let's say they evaluate a guy like Upshaw, like him a lot but don't think he has the speed on the edge that others have.

So they take a guy with more speed, a Bruce Irvin for example. They don't like him as much overall but like his speed.

So they take Irvin, people defending it by saying him brings more of what we're tying to do.

So Baltimore picks up Upshaw, who ends up starting opposite Suggs, and eventually becomes his replacement.

The Bills move on to their 56th scheme change.





Although I disagree with you on A. Williams as I see him being a good cb.

Not by having him do what they're having him do a great deal of the time. They want to bump people at the line, fine, but not chasing guys 30 yards down the field.

Quite frankly, very few CB's can. McLovin actually can, if he doesn't get sucked into ball fakes, and can improve on his ball skills (which are horrible). But at least he can stay with people down the field.

[k-oneputt]

I think you are dead on with the Upshaw/Irvin comparison theory.
unfortunately for the Bills because I think Upshaw is the real deal and will be a good long time pro, but you are right if they do go 4-3 they won't look at Upshaw.

[DraftBoy]

It isn't how they ended up, it is how they were perceived at the time. Kelsay especially, was a guy that lived in the backfield at Nebraska. Except against good competition, that is. He wasn't brought in for his POA stoutness.

Therein lies the problem. We draft guys who have the "look".



Whitner is quite possibly the worst run support SS we've had in recent times, his self perception notwithstanding. When he wasn't getting bowled over, he was taking terrible angles or leaving his jock on the field via a cutback move.

But on one out of 5 plays, he'd get past someone, may a tackle at the LOS, and people would ooh and ahh and talk about how good he was in run support.

I'm sure that's how the Bills saw him too, the next Bob Sanders. That C2 safety you could sneak up and plug a gap on run support. He wasn't. Not even close.

Compounding the fact that he couldn't cover a TE, basically, he was good for over the top deep help.



And he fit the "look" of a C2 3 tech to a T.




Well that's not how the Bills saw him when they drafted him. They had no intent on putting him at OLB, because they wanted their LB's at 225lbs or less.

He fit their image as a C2 DE. 260-265 lbs. had some success in college against some of the slower RT's. He had the look.





Yes, he was an overreach. Because they switched to a 34 and were looking for a NT. He weighed around 320. That's probably about as far as the analysis went. It really didn't matter whether he played NT before. He weighed 320 lbs and we needed a fat guy at NT.

Thus the problem of drafting people merely for scheme.



he's a 3rd round pick that contributed more than Christ Ellis. But he's 6'4 285-290. That's how they saw him.

Average against the run,
below average pass rusher
when playing LB, well below average in coverage.



Every one of those guys I mentioned had the size characteristics for the position they were originally placed. They had the "look" for "what we were trying to do" at the time.

And this is exactly why looks can be deceiving.

Ah I see now. Well I would advise you not to categorize the Bills horrific scouting department as the same thing as drafting to fit a scheme. The Bills have shown in the past they can't scout to fit their scheme so naturally their selection don't make sense.

The way the Bills saw many of those picks and the way others in the scouting community saw them are night and day. That's a scouting issue not a drafting issue.

[cookie G]

Ah I see now. Well I would advise you not to categorize the Bills horrific scouting department as the same thing as drafting to fit a scheme. The Bills have shown in the past they can't scout to fit their scheme so naturally their selection don't make sense.

The way the Bills saw many of those picks and the way others in the scouting community saw them are night and day. That's a scouting issue not a drafting issue.

Well good. Then we should just draft players, instead of worrying about how they fit to what we're trying to do, especially since we have no idea of what we're trying to do.

That's a relief. I'm getting tired of Goodell going to the podium on draft day and saying, "With the x pick of the NFL draft, the Baltimore Ravens select...the guy the Bills should have taken earlier."

[DraftBoy]

Well good. Then we should just draft players, instead of worrying about how they fit to what we're trying to do, especially since we have no idea of what we're trying to do.

That's a relief. I'm getting tired of Goodell going to the podium on draft day and saying, "With the x pick of the NFL draft, the Baltimore Ravens select...the guy the Bills should have taken earlier."

Well no I dont agree with that philosophy, but at least now I understand what you were saying much better than before.