The reason the Giants won (Again)

[Historian]

First off, I thought it was a very good game. Seriously.

But I believe there's a reason the 9-7 Giants knocked off the 13-3 Patriots:

It's the same reason we lost to them in SB XXV. The NFC is just plain more physical...especially in the NFC East. And for all of his 'genius', Bill Belichek has become an AFC coach:

-His QB throws for 5000 yards
-Pass first, run second mentality
-31st in the league in defense

The Giants run first, pass second, and play tough, physical defense in the trenches where it counts. The only team in the AFC that does that is Pittsburgh, and their problem is that they've gotten old. Maybe the Ravens are a distant second.

These NFC East teams spend the entire season beating the crap out of each other, and whomever is left standing, meaning whomever has the least amount of injuries at the end of the season, generally has a shot at the title.

Look at the QBs that have won titles out of that division over the last 25 years. Do any of them strike you as world beaters? (Williams, Hostetler, Manning, Rypian, even Aikman) They're good players, but my feeling is that they managed their games, they didn't win them. The physicality of their teams won the games.

Even San Francisco, for as good as they played all season long was exposed in the NFCCG. Why?

Because they don't play anybody all year long, same as the Patriots. They beat up on us, Miami and the Jets, but cannot win the line of scrimmage when it counts against the big boys from the NFC.

I think that as the Bills rebuild, that they need to get out of that AFC mode, and try to rebuild in the image of the NFC East.

[imbondz]

the thing about the Giants that they seem to always do well in big games is hold onto the ball. time of possession in this game: Giants 37:00 to Patriots 23:00

that's almost a whole quarter more.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

Giants had nearly the worst rushing attack in the nfl this season and barely got 100 yards in this game... Manning threw 40 times... Hardly sounds like a run first attack... But I agree with your overall assessment

[Luisito23]

Manning had like a million come from behind 4th. quarter victores this season, including last night...

How is he a game manager?

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

Plus in terms of the Bills rebuilding in the NFC model: you have to win ur division first... And that means, for us, you have to be able to out score brady... So they keep drafting effin DBs and gadgety offensive guys

[Night Train]

Good post Historian.

I like Chan but he's also guilty of bailing on the run quickly and becoming pass happy. His excuse may be no confidence in the D... but this coming draft will speak volumes on how much we shore up that side of the ball.

The Giants throw waves of good DE's, OLB's at opponents where we have next to nothing...plus they hit like a ton of bricks. Offense can pound the ball enough to set up the pass.

BTW - Nice ticket stub from a 1-13 season where we lost all our home games. I remember, since I was at 3,4 of them. :up:

[Mad Max]

I think it was Belicheks hubris over the past several years that cost them this game.

How many times did he trade back in the draft? How much talent did he pass up? The Pasties need a stud Pass Rusher, DB, and Running Back. With all of their 1st round draft picks they could have gotten that talent.

I'm just thankful that at least in that respect (drafting idiocy) the Pasties are almost as bad as us.

[Ickybaluky]

I think the game boiled down to 3 key areas:

1) Making the key plays - In the end, there were plays to be made in the 4th quarter. Giants made them, Patriots didn't. That is the real story. Pats had a lead and could have put the game away, but they missed a couple plays and gave the Giants a shot. When they got that shot, the Giants made the plays.

2) Giants holding the ball - The Giants were able to hold on to the ball, which limited the Pats to 9 possessions the whole game. The Pats are an offensive team, they need to play at a pace that allows more possessions. The inability to get the Giants off the field was key.

3) Field position - Nobody is going to talk about this, but the Pats average drive start was the 16 yard line. The Pats only started 1 drive beyond the 20 yard line (at the 31), and were forced to drive the length of the field. The Giants average drive start was the 24, and they had 2 drives with very good field position (the 35 and 48). The Giants got field goals both times on the short fields.

In the end, it is hard to be upset with this Pats team. They plays their hearts out all year and probably overachieved. They are a very good offensive team, but their defensive deficiencies left them exposed. They were terrible on 3rd down all year, especially against the pass. If you look at the Steelers game and the Super Bowl, they were limited in possessions because the other team was able to dominate the clock. They will have to resolve that next year.

[Cleve]

I like Chan but he's also guilty of bailing on the run quickly and becoming pass happy.

Which makes ZERO sense when you consider he has one of the best rushing attacks in the league, and a QB whose stats are decidedly in the bottom 1/3rd of NFL QBs.

That's another reason why I think Gailey really isn't that good of a HC. There's a reason he was unemployed as a coach for so many years. The rest of the league saw it, but our 'geniuses' like Wilson and Dumbdon, with their colossal egos, think they're smarter somehow than the rest of the NFL and can just do things 'differently'.

[Ickybaluky]

How many times did he trade back in the draft? How much talent did he pass up? The Pasties need a stud Pass Rusher, DB, and Running Back.

Pats need a S worse than anything. They could use another CB as well. In terms of pass rush they were OK this year, but they had injuries to some of their better rushers (Andre Carter, Mike Wright, Myron Pryor). Still they had 40 sacks on the season and their lack of ability to cover hurt them more than pass rush.

The other big need is RB, where they are actually in good shape moving forward. They already addressed that and have young guys in the pipeline. However their big need is an outside-the-numbers WR that can win one-on-one battles. The Pats offense owns the middle of the field with Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez, but Deion Branch and Chad Ochocinco do not threaten teams enough. They need a good outiside WR, not unlike Stevie Johnson.

Those are their big needs, S, CB, WR.

The idea that trading down hurt them is silly. It isn't like they traded out of the top-10, they were picking at the bottom of the 1st round each year. Some of their best young players were acquired by trading down, like Gronkowski and Chung. They are in good shape overall.

[OpIv37]

Manning had like a million come from behind 4th. quarter victores this season, including last night...

How is he a game manager?

are you really asking this?

Just go back to the Bills under Jauron to see how clock mismanagement in the last 2 minutes of the half/game can take points directly off the board and lead to losses.

[Ickybaluky]

The Giants run first, pass second, and play tough, physical defense in the trenches where it counts.

I agree the Giants are a physical front defensively, but you think they are physical, run-first team? They threw for almost 5,000 yards. They had the 6th most pass attempts in the NFL this year and conversely had the 22nd most rush attempts. Their OL struggled all year, and they won because Eli played great and they have some very good receivers.

The Giants were a throwing team, and that is how they beat the Patriots. They did run better in the postseason, but still were 6th-best rushing team in yards-per-game and average in the playoffs (the Pats were 7th). In the Super Bowl they 18 first downs passing to only 7 rushing. They controlled the ball through the air.

[Ickybaluky]

Manning had like a million come from behind 4th. quarter victores this season, including last night...

How is he a game manager?

He is anything but. Eli had a great year. The Giants have a great passing game because of him. He has some really good receivers, and his ability to keep plays alive helped make up for some troubles the OL had protecting all season. Eli deserves all the accolades, he has become a great QB.

[Historian]

2) Giants holding the ball - The Giants were able to hold on to the ball, which limited the Pats to 9 possessions the whole game. The Pats are an offensive team, they need to play at a pace that allows more possessions. The inability to get the Giants off the field was key.



This is the one thing I meant to touch on but forgot to.

The Giants had the ball almost the entire first quarter.

How do you beat Brady? You don't let him on the field. (Even the Bills proved that this year)

When you can make the game three quarters essentially, you're playing power football.

It's how the Giants beat us in SB XXV.

[DraftBoy]

I think one of the things that has gone unmentioned has been the job Perry Fewell has done this year with that Giants D. If you think about their secondary how many of us could actually name all four starters before last night? How about all three LB's?

They do such a great job keeping things fresh and employing different looks with their front four that they can drop a big number back into coverage. We saw Justin Tuck get one or two sacks from the DT position, JPP was giving the Patriots pressure off the edge, and it was a line that would not be blocked. In the 2nd half that became even more apparent when it seemed like every time Brady dropped back he either took a hit or had to bail out.

Perry Fewell deserves a lot of credit for that win last night.

[djjimkelly]

the giants are consistently good becuz they never and i mean NEVER allow their d line to be bad or their front seven.

they always have a serious pass rush

ive been watching football since the early 80's and they can always rush the passer

when u can rush the passer you always have a serious defense

ive also never seen them draft a 1st round RB

[mysticsoto]

the giants are consistently good becuz they never and i mean NEVER allow their d line to be bad or their front seven.

they always have a serious pass rush

ive been watching football since the early 80's and they can always rush the passer

when u can rush the passer you always have a serious defense

ive also never seen them draft a 1st round RB

This is what I've been preaching the last couple of years and the blueprint I think we need to follow!!!

[Jan Reimers]

I think the teams were virtually dead even. The entire game hinged on the Giants' receivers making a couple of great plays, and the Pats' receivers missing a couple of very catchable passes.

If those plays go the other way, the Pats win.

[Historian]

Saw this on FB, thought it was funny.

[Skooby]

Giants scored more points, that's why they won.

[Philagape]

In a close game, several factors make the difference. In addition to some of the things already mentioned:
* There were the Pats' uncharacteristic bonehead mistakes: the safety, too many men, drops, etc.
* The Giants didn't turn it over. Luckily.
* You can't say Gronk playing on one leg didn't have a big impact.
* Eli is Captain Clutch. 5-for-6 on the 88-yard winning drive, helped of course by a spectacular Manningham. Eli punched his ticket to Canton. Calling him a game manager is ridiculous.

[Bill Cody]

I always laugh at the ridiculous post mortems after a close game. This thread is loaded with a ton of stuff that is either factually wrong or irrelevant to the outome.

If Welker catches that ball which he does probably 9 out of 10 Pats win. Then what? Is is Manning blah blah this or more physical that or bonehead this or Brady that? Umm....no. It would be..Bellichick on Mount Rushmore, is Brady the best ever.

But winning makes perception reality. It was a close game that could have gone either way. The Patriots defense is not great but 21 points is not bad at all, normally good enough for them to win. People don't realize what a loss Gronkowski was for them. He wasn't close to full speed. And that catch by Manningham was amazing. That's one of those games when one play literally was the difference and you could pick out 4 or 5 and the outcome changes.

[Historian]

Eli punched his ticket to Canton. Calling him a game manager is ridiculous.

Only if you take it with a negative connotation, which is not how I intended it.

He's athletic, he's very methodical, and a student of the game. Reminds me of Bob Griese actually.

All I'm saying is that he's not called upon to throw for 5000 yards and 50 TDs a season, because the team has balance, and is very physical.

[trapezeus]

NYC media covered the issue of field position after the game. they had a conversation with weatherford after the game, and he gave a funny interview.

but they did show how his first punt lead to the safety and he only had one that should have been downed inside the 5 but bounced in.

[Bill Cody]

Only if you take it with a negative connotation, which is not how I intended it.

He's athletic, he's very methodical, and a student of the game. Reminds me of Bob Griese actually.

All I'm saying is that he's not called upon to throw for 5000 yards and 50 TDs a season, because the team has balance, and is very physical.

They were not balanced this year and Eli threw for 4933 yards. Other than that, correct.

[ublinkwescore]

Plus in terms of the Bills rebuilding in the NFC model: you have to win ur division first... And that means, for us, you have to be able to out score brady... So they keep drafting effin DBs and gadgety offensive guys

We play more games against teams from outside of our division - we need to focus on being as good across the board and getting the most balance on both sides of the ball that we can. If we can field a team that can beat all these other teams, we should be able to hold our own against not just the pats but the rest of our division as well. I want buffalo to draft bad tempered, big fast guys that want to deliver punishment on every play - once again you saw how brady gets with a little bit of pressure on his ass - particularly on the play he threw the pick on. On offense, I want to see us able to gain 4 yards per run play every play (or average) and that starts with the line in front of us and being able to pass the ball as well to make opposing Ds honest.

this team could have made the playoffs if it were healthy all year long, but that is just not possible with any team. Never will be either. our problems started to occur when we started losing players on D - the pressure wasn't there on the QB any more and our DBs were left out to dry with recievers who had all day long to get open. then most of our O line went down and not only can our D not get off the field, but Fitzpatrick had no more time to do anything our RBs didn't get anything going, all was futile - I don't attribute this season's horrible results to anything other than years and years of $#!tty drafts and offseasons resulting in very poor depth - that's why I'm hoping that we keep Buddy Nix and Chan Gailey here for a while and seriously give them a chance to show what they can do after having ran the show for a while to build that depth up, and still be able to implement and further develop their schemes.

But George Edwards has to go and now - One Bills Drive better be on the phone with the heir apparent to our D Coordinator spot - or promote Wandstedt (sp?) to D coordinator.

[jamze132]

I think the game boiled down to 3 key areas:

1) Making the key plays - In the end, there were plays to be made in the 4th quarter. Giants made them, Patriots didn't. That is the real story. Pats had a lead and could have put the game away, but they missed a couple plays and gave the Giants a shot. When they got that shot, the Giants made the plays.

2) Giants holding the ball - The Giants were able to hold on to the ball, which limited the Pats to 9 possessions the whole game. The Pats are an offensive team, they need to play at a pace that allows more possessions. The inability to get the Giants off the field was key.

3) Field position - Nobody is going to talk about this, but the Pats average drive start was the 16 yard line. The Pats only started 1 drive beyond the 20 yard line (at the 31), and were forced to drive the length of the field. The Giants average drive start was the 24, and they had 2 drives with very good field position (the 35 and 48). The Giants got field goals both times on the short fields.

In the end, it is hard to be upset with this Pats team. They plays their hearts out all year and probably overachieved. They are a very good offensive team, but their defensive deficiencies left them exposed. They were terrible on 3rd down all year, especially against the pass. If you look at the Steelers game and the Super Bowl, they were limited in possessions because the other team was able to dominate the clock. They will have to resolve that next year.
Don't worry, you have four Day 1/2 picks and about $20M in cap space. I think they'll figure it out.

[Philagape]

Only if you take it with a negative connotation, which is not how I intended it.

He's athletic, he's very methodical, and a student of the game. Reminds me of Bob Griese actually.

All I'm saying is that he's not called upon to throw for 5000 yards and 50 TDs a season, because the team has balance, and is very physical.

He also throws it deep a lot, and does it well.


Manning threw a greater percentage of his passes downfield than any QB in the league this year, according to statistics on ESPN.com.

Manning passes went 20 or more yards downfield 16.6 percent of the time this year, the highest rate of any of the 16 QBs who had at least 500 attempts. Manning was 37 of 98 for 1,153 yards on throws of 20 yards or more. That was a league-high in attempts and second best in the league in yards, behind only Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers.
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/inside-the-nfl/article717126.ece

Manning is the undisputed leader and main engine of a championship-caliber offense.

[imbondz]

How about the multiple lucky bounces the Giants got after they fumbled the ball. That one fumble at the end oddly bounced right into a Giants player.

Of course all this talk about how the Giants won, if Welker makes that catch, Patriots most likely would have won.

[PTI]

Um, this whole thread should be stopped based on the OP's thoughts. Giants were dead last in the NFL in rushing this year, they were not a run first team, that is made up stuff. Giants had 89 yards a game, Patriots had 110 yards a game, Giants ran it 411 times this year, Patriots ran it 438 times. Patriots threw the ball 38 times a game, Giants threw it 37 times a game.

[YardRat]

Defense held the Pats to 17 pts, and let's not forget the job the Giants offensive line did. How many times was Vince Wilfork's name mentioned on a play that really mattered? Not much.

Oline and defense. It's always been the key to winning a championship and it always will be.

[Mr. Pink]

31st in defense is misleading. Points matter, yards do not...

The Pats were around 15th in points allowed.

I do agree though that the last couple years Patriot teams are not what Belichick teams used to look like though.

[DynaPaul]

The Patriots just aren't that good.

[Ickybaluky]

31st in defense is misleading. Points matter, yards do not

True, but there are other factors. The Pats were able to give up all those yards and still be middle-of-the-pack in points because they forced turnovers and were pretty good at times in forcing FG. Yesterday they did a decent job forcing some FG, but the potential turnovers they caused were recovered by the Giants.

The real weakness they had all year on defense was 3rd down and big plays, both related to coverage issues. The Pats secondary could not cover and gave up big plays too often. They got better at that as the year went along, but they struggled on 3rd down even through the playoffs. They need to improve in those areas. I actually think their rush was OK, and they lost some pretty good pass down players in Andre Carter, Mike Wright and Myron Pryor during the season. However, their secondary can't cover well and didn't tackle well. They need a big S with range to pair with Patrick Chung, and they need help at CB.

I thought offensively they did OK, although I would have liked to see more play. I thought field position was a factor, as they had long fields all night. They didn't get into a rhythm most of the night other than the drives right before and after the half. That is a credit to the Giants who were able to dominate the ball and not let the Pats establish the faster pace they wanted to. Ultimately, both teams averaged the same 5.6 yards-per-play, but the Giants were able to run a lot more plays. I think the Pats struggled a little with Gronkowski limited, as it allowed the Giants to focus on Welker and Hernandez more. The lack of a WR who can consistently beat good coverage outside hurt hem, and is something I would like to see them address in the offseason. They dominate the middle of the field, but lack a big-time play-maker outside the numbers in the passing game.

That said, they had their opportunity in that game. Both teams did, and the Giants converted their chances in the end. That was the difference.

[Mike]

I do agree though that the last couple years Patriot teams are not what Belichick teams used to look like though.

It's kind of funny and ironic that the Pats turned into the fineness offensive team they use to regularly beat: the colts.