The more I think about it...

[OpIv37]

The more I realize that Stevie Johnson leaving Buffalo is the best thing for both sides.

This franchise already ruined their last two star receivers (Lee Evans and Eric Moulds) with an absurd QB carousel, a lack of other receiving threats and/or an inept running game. Right now, we have the running game figured out but our QB is mediocre and we don't have another big receiving threat.

We've seen what Stevie can do in this situation. The team can't continue to do the same thing and expect different results. And we know that there is no way this team will pay another receiving threat if they have to commit $7.5 million+ a year to Stevie.

Stevie could thrive on a team with a better QB/WR situation (assuming he gets over the dropsies and the maturity issues). The team could take the money they would have spent on him and spend it on a true #1 WR. There are a bunch available this year (Colston, Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne, Dwayne Bowe).

Assuming the Bills find a true #1 elsewhere, losing Stevie isn't the end of the world and may come with the opportunity to be better off at WR.

[JCBills]

I think it's unfair at this point to say he isn't a true #1. He has never had anything above a mediocre QB. Colston, Jackson, Wayne, and Bowe have, even though Cassel would be pushing it, he has had a few good seasons in 2008 and 2010.

I'd like to see what Stevie can do with a threat opposite him, and eventually a new QB.

[ThunderGun]

I posted this in the other thread, but I wouldn't get anywhere near Colston or Wayne.

Colston has had way too many knee surgeries, and Wayne has never done anything without one of the best QB's of all time throwing to him, and Marvin Harrison on the other side. And even then, I never really felt like he was a #1 WR. He reminds me of Lee Evans, who I also never thought was a #1.

Bowe....idk...he's a freak. Super-talented. But he's never really been consistent until recently, and KC is gonna tag him anyway, so it probably won't matter.

The only real option, IMO, is Vincent Jackson. The only way I'd be ok with letting stevie walk would be if we got Jackson (or Blackmon, but that obviously isn't gonna happen). I highly doubt we get Jackson....but maybe Buddy Nix has a good relationship with him from his San Diego days. I doubt it, but you never know.

[OpIv37]

I think it's unfair at this point to say he isn't a true #1. He has never had anything above a mediocre QB. Colston, Jackson, Wayne, and Bowe have, even though Cassel would be pushing it, he has had a few good seasons in 2008 and 2010.

I'd like to see what Stevie can do with a threat opposite him, and eventually a new QB.

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.

[ThunderGun]

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.

That worries me as well, but that will be true with any WR we have. At least we know that Stevie can be solid with mediocre QB play. You're right though...I'd hate to "Moulds" him.

[stuckincincy]

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.

Amazing, isn't it? They're not alone - WAS comes to mind.

Can one imagine what would happen if a successful corporation owned a team - say McDonald's - in place of one of the egotistical Gang of 32?


You'd have to retire the Lombardi Trophy - they'd never lose.

[Oaf]

Who's our number #2 if we don't resign Johnson and spring for another guy?

All this discussion and negotiation just to realize Donald Jones and/or Hospital Marcus is still starting.

[better days]

The Bills may have wasted Moulds talent, but they did not ruin him.

[Cali512]

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.




You do realize that Stevie and Fitz love eachother and have a great chemistry. Imo if Stevie stays it will be bc of Fitz. Your lookin at it from your pov, not his

[Johnny Bugmenot]

Sure. I can see your point.

Stevie would get a better team.

Buffalo fans would finally get so disgusted with the management of the team that they'd finally stop buying tickets and let the team move to L.A., where they'd get a bigger fan base, more money to work with, and the ability to win.

A Cadmean victory if you will.

[JCBills]

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.

Fitz's contract was structured so they can get out without much money thrown out.

Even if they draft someone to develop behind him, I don't think they would hesitate to make the switch if it became apparent that the up and comer had a higher ceiling.

[OpIv37]

You do realize that Stevie and Fitz love eachother and have a great chemistry. Imo if Stevie stays it will be bc of Fitz. Your lookin at it from your pov, not his

Don't care about chemistry.

I care about results. Stevie and Fitz haven't been good enough to get us wins, chemistry or not.

[OpIv37]

Who's our number #2 if we don't resign Johnson and spring for another guy?

All this discussion and negotiation just to realize Donald Jones and/or Hospital Marcus is still starting.

If we re-sign Johnson, we aren't springing for another guy.

[OpIv37]

Fitz's contract was structured so they can get out without much money thrown out.

Even if they draft someone to develop behind him, I don't think they would hesitate to make the switch if it became apparent that the up and comer had a higher ceiling.

I don't doubt that.

I doubt that they can actually find a QB.

[better days]

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.

Well, Miami has gone through more QBs than Buffalo has since Marino retired.

The Jets haven't had aQB since Namath & NO Esiason was never good.

The Rams haven't had a QB since they let Warner get away while he still had some football left in him & no Bradford will never be any better than Fitz.

The 49ers haven't had a QB since Young although Smith may be as good as Fitz.

The Seahawks haven't had a QB since Zorn.

There are MANY teams looking for a QB, Buffalo is not alone in that regard.

[better days]

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.

Well, Miami has gone through more QBs than Buffalo has since Marino retired.

The Jets haven't had aQB since Namath & NO Esiason was never good.

The Rams haven't had a QB since they let Warner get away while he still had some football left in him & no Bradford will never be any better than Fitz.

The 49ers haven't had a QB since Young although Smith may be as good as Fitz.

The Seahawks haven't had a QB since Zorn.

There are MANY teams looking for a QB, Buffalo is not alone in that regard.

[ddaryl]

I don't think you give up on a guy with 2 consecutive 1000 yd seasons who scores TD's for any reason.

I think we go after a solid WR/TE threat to compliment Steve, not to replace him

[OpIv37]

Well, Miami has gone through more QBs than Buffalo has since Marino retired.

The Jets haven't had aQB since Namath & NO Esiason was never good.

The Rams haven't had a QB since they let Warner get away while he still had some football left in him & no Bradford will never be any better than Fitz.

The 49ers haven't had a QB since Young although Smith may be as good as Fitz.

The Seahawks haven't had a QB since Zorn.

There are MANY teams looking for a QB, Buffalo is not alone in that regard.

Again, not interested in other teams. I'm interested in the Bills improving and winning games.

Supply and demand. The demand is far greater than the supply, which makes it that much harder to actually get a QB.

And look at the teams you named. Miami has only been marginally better than us. The Rams have actually been worse than us, in a pathetic division too. The 49ers have struggled until this year. And other than one good year, the Seahawks have been terrible- they just luck into playoff berths on occasion due to being in a **** division.

The only team that you mentioned with any moderate success is the Jets, and even they have been very streaky with no championships or sustained success.

[OpIv37]

I don't think you give up on a guy with 2 consecutive 1000 yd seasons who scores TD's for any reason.

I think we go after a solid WR/TE threat to compliment Steve, not to replace him

again, not gonna happen. The Bills just aren't going to commit that much money to one position.

[Cali512]

Don't care about chemistry.

I care about results. Stevie and Fitz haven't been good enough to get us wins, chemistry or not.



You made a thread bout what you think Stevie would want and benifit. No one cares what u want, this thread was designed to go into Stevies thinking, and i showed you what i believe and well what he has stated.

[OpIv37]

You made a thread bout what you think Stevie would want and benifit. No one cares what u want, this thread was designed to go into Stevies thinking, and i showed you what i believe and well what he has stated.

So, your contention is that Stevie wants to stay on a crappy football team with a mediocre QB that has a history of underpaying players and holding back WR's because he has chemistry with Fitz?

Please, enlighten me- how do you know what Stevie's POV is? You got him on speed dial? Did he private message you on Twitter? Are you clairvoyant?

My contention is that Stevie will most likely be better off on another team, and, depending on how the Bills respond to the loss, they could be better off without him as well. Stevie and Fitz having "chemistry" doesn't change that. And if Stevie takes less money to fester with Fitz in Buffalo because they have "chemistry," then he's a moron.

[JCBills]

again, not gonna happen. The Bills just aren't going to commit that much money to one position.

I don't think thats the case. They're going to be paying Spiller and Fred a good chunk once they extend Fred.

They don't have to go out and dump a lot into one position either. If they can sign Stevie, they can look to draft a #2 in the early-mid rounds. This is a pretty deep WR class.

[Oaf]

If we re-sign Johnson, we aren't springing for another guy. So either way, we're ending up with one starting WR and not two. So let's just let it play out and see what we can do in terms of a #2 over the summer.

Also, after watching the NYG-BUF highlights recently, it wouldn't surprise me if Johnson didn't really place much weight in terms of chemistry with Fitz. SJ strikes me as the kind of guy who wants to go out and explore. I'm pretty sure he's going to do it. Unfortunate bc he's one of the better route runners in the league. But, we can find a WR that's top notch in another area..

[DrGraves]

The Bills will not be able to sign someone else that is a legitimate number 1. Retaining SJ13 is a must.

[trapezeus]

bills need to sign a fair deal with stevie and add to the puzzle. the bills can't keep cutting people who they don't think is perfect and try to start over. the WR corp was decimated last year. Stevie kept playing.

he has two big drops. he's still young. he owns revis.

he won't get it done on his own, but few teams just have one receiving threat. that's all we have. even calvin johnson has a great TE on the field with him.

[JCBills]

bills need to sign a fair deal with stevie and add to the puzzle. the bills can't keep cutting people who they don't think is perfect and try to start over. the WR corp was decimated last year. Stevie kept playing.

he has two big drops. he's still young. he owns revis.

he won't get it done on his own, but few teams just have one receiving threat. that's all we have. even calvin johnson has a great TE on the field with him.

That alone should make him worth more to us.

11 Rec 159 Yds 1 TD vs the Jets last season.

[YardRat]

The more I realize that Stevie Johnson leaving Buffalo is the best thing for both sides.

We all really know it's 'best' only because it gives you another reason to ***** about how cheap Ralph is and incompetent the front office is.

[The Jokeman]

That alone should make him worth more to us.

11 Rec 159 Yds 1 TD vs the Jets last season.
In comparison Brandon Marshall put up 11 Rec 159 Yards and 0 TD vs the Jets last season.

[The Jokeman]

Don't care about chemistry.

I care about results. Stevie and Fitz haven't been good enough to get us wins, chemistry or not.
They were good enough before injuries mounted on the O-line and other WRs and the D stopped creating turnovers. I don't blame Fitz and Stevie solely for our poor finish but we have a better chance of winning with Stevie here without him. All the other WRs you mentioned are older than Stevie and have no chemistry with Fitz. Keep the talent we have here and supplement/compliment it with more.

[Buffalogic]

If we let Stevie hit the open market he's going to be coming back to Buffalo in a pats uniform and will be raping us for the rest of his career. I like him way too much to see him join forces with the enemy.

[Philagape]

In theory I'd have no problem replacing Stevie with VJax or Bowe, but they have to decide on Stevie before FA begins, and if they don't lock him up, it's a good chance they get none of them. Too big a risk. Target the guy who still has no choice. Choice = bad for Buffalo.

[Lone Stranger]

The initial argument is based on the premise that the Bills go outside and pick up a quality receiver in free agency. That just ain't going to happen. When do the Bills ever make a splash in free agency; add to that Nix's general standard to build with the draft.

I am puzzled why anyone gets their hopes up that the Bills are a real player in FA.

[mikemac2001]

The Bills may have wasted Moulds talent, but they did not ruin him.


Your response was ignored because it was true....anyone who knows football knows moulds would have been a beast on any other team, because he was a beast even though he was held back.

[Mahdi]

The initial argument is based on the premise that the Bills go outside and pick up a quality receiver in free agency. That just ain't going to happen. When do the Bills ever make a splash in free agency; add to that Nix's general standard to build with the draft.

I am puzzled why anyone gets their hopes up that the Bills are a real player in FA.
I agree.

I highly doubt that if we lose Stevie we're going to suddenly turn around and be major players in FA for a big time WR.

Vincent Jackson or Bowe will not come here. Why would they come to a struggling team when there are many teams out there who will pay them the same or more.

I can see V. Jack going to Carolina, Houston, Baltimore, NYJ, Philly, Chicago, San Fran, Indi, NE.

All those teams need WRs and are more attractive destinations.

If we lose out on Stevie, we're going to have to wait for the first wave of WRs to sign with all those teams. Then we will have a chance to sign the second tier guys.

Everyone thinks the WR market is great this year. But I think that's just an illusion.

Vincent Jackson (likely to be FA)
Bowe (likely to stay in KC with tag or contract)
Welker (definite stay in NE)
Desean J.(will get tagged)
Colston (will def leave)
Stevie (???)
Wallace (is restricted but a team will pay the first round pick to get him)

From that group V. Jack and Colston are available most likely. I highly doubt they choose us.

Then you have second tier guys after that....

Wayne, Manningham, Meachem, Laurent Robinson, Lloyd, Doucet...

Buffalo MUST keep Johnson in order to just be as good at the position we were last year. And this is a team that needed to improve at the position.

[OpIv37]

bills need to sign a fair deal with stevie and add to the puzzle. the bills can't keep cutting people who they don't think is perfect and try to start over. the WR corp was decimated last year. Stevie kept playing.

he has two big drops. he's still young. he owns revis.

he won't get it done on his own, but few teams just have one receiving threat. that's all we have. even calvin johnson has a great TE on the field with him.

And this is where Bills fans completely overrate Stevie. The fact that he "owned" Revis got us 1 win. He cost us a win with his drops. Net result: even.

And the way he reacted after both his big drops and the persistent celebration penalties show maturity issues that aren't improving.

[OpIv37]

They were good enough before injuries mounted on the O-line and other WRs and the D stopped creating turnovers. I don't blame Fitz and Stevie solely for our poor finish but we have a better chance of winning with Stevie here without him. All the other WRs you mentioned are older than Stevie and have no chemistry with Fitz. Keep the talent we have here and supplement/compliment it with more.

the talent we have isn't good enough to win. And if we pay to keep it we won't be paying to improve it.

[OpIv37]

We all really know it's 'best' only because it gives you another reason to ***** about how cheap Ralph is and incompetent the front office is.

Don't ***** about me *****ing. ***** about the FO being cheap and incompetent. This "shoot the messenger" syndrome is just a way to deflect criticism away from the team and onto me personally. I'm not the one who makes the Bills suck- Ralph and the FO are.

What the Bills need to do is re-sign Stevie AND get another receiving threat to take pressure off of him. They aren't going to do it. There is just no way.

We've already seen the results with Stevie. They aren't good enough. We can't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Since they won't do what they really need to do, the ONLY chance this team has is to find a WR who's a true #1 and hope it's good enough to get by.

[justasportsfan]

The more I realize that Stevie Johnson leaving Buffalo is the best thing for both sides.

This franchise already ruined their last two star receivers (Lee Evans and Eric Moulds) with an absurd QB carousel, a lack of other receiving threats and/or an inept running game. Right now, we have the running game figured out but our QB is mediocre and we don't have another big receiving threat.

We've seen what Stevie can do in this situation. The team can't continue to do the same thing and expect different results. And we know that there is no way this team will pay another receiving threat if they have to commit $7.5 million+ a year to Stevie.

Stevie could thrive on a team with a better QB/WR situation (assuming he gets over the dropsies and the maturity issues). The team could take the money they would have spent on him and spend it on a true #1 WR. There are a bunch available this year (Colston, Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne, Dwayne Bowe).

Assuming the Bills find a true #1 elsewhere, losing Stevie isn't the end of the world and may come with the opportunity to be better off at WR.


I disagree. there are no guarantees that the grass is greener on the other side. There have been wr's that have failed by moving to other teams playing in a different system with a different qb. Peerless Price, Branch, Ocho Cinco, etc, to name a few.


On the flipside however,it's a FACT that Stevie is a very good player under Gailey's sytem and Fitz as his qb.

[ThunderGun]

Don't ***** about me *****ing. ***** about the FO being cheap and incompetent. This "shoot the messenger" syndrome is just a way to deflect criticism away from the team and onto me personally. I'm not the one who makes the Bills suck- Ralph and the FO are.

What the Bills need to do is re-sign Stevie AND get another receiving threat to take pressure off of him. They aren't going to do it. There is just no way.

We've already seen the results with Stevie. They aren't good enough. We can't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Since they won't do what they really need to do, the ONLY chance this team has is to find a WR who's a true #1 and hope it's good enough to get by.

Unfortunately, I know that the Bills aren't going to go out and land a big-time WR in free agency. The only one I would take over Stevie would be V. Jackson anyway, and we all know that isn't gonna happen. That's why I think it's important that we re-sign Stevie. Hopefully, we'll add a decent #2 in free agency, and maybe find a hidden gem in the draft that can become a solid starter (like we did with Stevie).

We're not going to get a stud, but if we can get two guys who are on Stevie's level, I'd be happy.

[OpIv37]

I disagree. there are no guarantees that the grass is greener on the other side. There have been wr's that have failed by moving to other teams playing in a different system with a different qb. Peerless Price, Branch, Ocho Cinco, etc, to name a few.


On the flipside however,it's a FACT that Stevie is a very good player under Gailey's sytem and Fitz as his qb.

Very good but not good enough to get us wins. We can take a chance on the grass being greener, or we can do the same thing and expect different results.

[better days]

Very good but not good enough to get us wins. We can take a chance on the grass being greener, or we can do the same thing and expect different results.

Or we can keep good players like Stevie & ADD players to IMPROVE the defense. Talk about spinning wheels, this team will never improve if they continue to let GOOD players leave.

[justasportsfan]

Or we can keep good players like Stevie & ADD players to IMPROVE the defense. Talk about spinning wheels, this team will never improve if they continue to let GOOD players leave.

exactly!

[OpIv37]

Or we can keep good players like Stevie & ADD players to IMPROVE the defense. Talk about spinning wheels, this team will never improve if they continue to let GOOD players leave.

This team will never improve if they keep re-signing the same guys who aren't good enough. Our "good" players are only good compared to our team. They aren't good compared to the rest of the NFL.

[JCBills]

This team will never improve if they keep re-signing the same guys who aren't good enough. Our "good" players are only good compared to our team. They aren't good compared to the rest of the NFL.

That's pretty thin.

Fred Jackson leading the league in rushing before going down wouldn't be good on another team?

Back to back 1,000 yd seasons wouldn't be good? Plenty of teams would love that type of production from their wideouts.

[OpIv37]

That's pretty thin.

Fred Jackson leading the league in rushing before going down wouldn't be good on another team?

Back to back 1,000 yd seasons wouldn't be good? Plenty of teams would love that type of production from their wideouts.

back to back 1000 yard seasons that comes at the price of inopportune drops and foolish personal foul penalties.

And yes, Fred Jackson is NFL level. So are Kyle Williams and Eric Wood, and Dareus most likely will be as well. And of course Lindell and Moorman. But it gets really ugly after that.

[Extremebillsfan247]

the problem is that if he stays in Buffalo, there's a good chance he'll spend most or all of his career with a mediocre QB. We've already extended Fitz and this team hasn't been able to find a QB since Jim Kelly in the mid- 1980's.So, your reason for Johnson and the Bills parting ways as being a good idea is because the Bills have a mediocre QB? lol I hope I'm just misunderstanding this. But this team would never win anything by continually shedding their best talents because other players on the team are mediocre. That's just a ludicrous way of thinking. JMO

[justasportsfan]

This team will never improve if they keep re-signing the same guys who aren't good enough. Our "good" players are only good compared to our team. They aren't good compared to the rest of the NFL.


What? Stevie is good enough. The problem is the players around him aren't. He's the most productive wr we have on the team and yet you are telling me the team is better off getting rid of him without even a replacement.

Don't let me bring back your opinion about Jeff POsey. lol

[OpIv37]

So, your reason for Johnson and the Bills parting ways as being a good idea is because the Bills have a mediocre QB? lol I hope I'm just misunderstanding this. But this team would never win anything by continually shedding their best talents because other players on the team are mediocre. That's just a ludicrous way of thinking. JMO

No, my reason is because we've seen what Johnson and Fitz can do together and it isn't good enough. I realize a mediocre QB will always hold a WR back, but the reality is that we're stuck with Fitz for a while and even if we replace him, there is no guarantee that the replacement will be better. So, the only real chance we have is to find someone else who may be able to be more productive with Fitz.

We can't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

The team will never win anything as long as their "best talents" aren't good enough, and that's the situation we are in with Stevie (and Fitz too, but that's a different topic).

This FO has created a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Clearly we are better with Stevie than without him, but as the results on the field have shown, clearly we aren't good enough even with Stevie.

The real answer is to keep Stevie and find another receiving threat to compliment him, but the FO won't pay for that.

[OpIv37]

What? Stevie is good enough. The problem is the players around him aren't. He's the most productive wr we have on the team and yet you are telling me the team is better off getting rid of him without even a replacement.

Don't let me bring back your opinion about Jeff POsey. lol

Here we go again- not holding anyone accountable for their own play and blaming everyone around them.

Football is a team game. EVERY player looks better on a better team with better players around them. That's how team sports works.

[JCBills]

back to back 1000 yard seasons that comes at the price of inopportune drops and foolish personal foul penalties.

And yes, Fred Jackson is NFL level. So are Kyle Williams and Eric Wood, and Dareus most likely will be as well. And of course Lindell and Moorman. But it gets really ugly after that.

T.O. had similar problems his whole career. Nobody doubted he was good for the span he averaged 10 TDs a year.

[Ickybaluky]

T.O. had similar problems his whole career. Nobody doubted he was good for the span he averaged 10 TDs a year.

Johnson may have maturity issues, but nothing like TO. TO had a reputation for being hard to coach and creating splits in the locker room. He had trouble with coaches and QBs, then the players were split over whether it was his fault or not. He would divide a team from within.

Johnson's issues are overblown. He has taken a couple stupid celebration penalties, but he is not the kind of headcase like DeSean Jackson or Brandon Marshall. He has had a couple big drops, but all WR have drops.

Johnson is a good player. The other stuff is overblown, IMO.

[justasportsfan]

Here we go again- not holding anyone accountable for their own play and blaming everyone around them.

Football is a team game. EVERY player looks better on a better team with better players around them. That's how team sports works.
whats there to be accountable when talking about Stevie? Stevie IS THE MOST PRODUCTIVE player we've had in the last 2 years. Posey was garbage and you had a HUGE problem letting him go without a replacement.Posey was a LIABILITY in the entire team and Stevie is the most productive .

You had a problem with Fletcher when he was here and then now you changed your mind and said we shouldn't have let him go.

You had a problem with letting Jason Peters go and then you changed your mind and said you were wrong. Now that Peters is at the top of his game will you change your mind again?

I have PROVEN in the past that I have held players/coaches accountable. I've held Jauron and even Fitz accountable for hs game. Up until now I am not sold on Fitz but taking away his best weapon without a replacement (your logic own logic that you are now contradicting) does not make Fitz better.

I never disagreed that it's team game. Give Fitz more added weapons to the ones he already had chemistry with and thats Stevie.

[OpIv37]

whats there to be accountable when talking about Stevie? Stevie IS THE MOST PRODUCTIVE player we've had in the last 2 years. Posey was garbage and you had a HUGE problem letting him go without a replacement.Posey was a LIABILITY in the entire team and Stevie is the most productive .

You had a problem with Fletcher when he was here and then now you changed your mind and said we shouldn't have let him go.

You had a problem with letting Jason Peters go and then you changed your mind and said you were wrong. Now that Peters is at the top of his game will you change your mind again?

I have PROVEN in the past that I have held players/coaches accountable. I've held Jauron and even Fitz accountable for hs game. Up until now I am not sold on Fitz but taking away his best weapon without a replacement (your logic own logic that you are now contradicting) does not make Fitz better.

I never disagreed that it's team game. Give Fitz more added weapons to the ones he already had chemistry with and thats Stevie.

I NEVER said take away his best weapons without a replacement. If you go back to my original post, I said the Bills will be better off IF they get one of the other big name WR's in FA.

And yes, I agree that the FO SHOULD keep Stevie and give him another weapon, but they WON'T. It would be far too much money committed to one player.

So, I'm not even really sure what this discussion is about because it sounds like we're saying the same things.

[JCBills]

I'm sorry but this is a pretty backwards argument.

"What we have so far isn't good enough, so instead of trying to improve, which is what any team would try to do, let's get worse."

Can't say anyone is following.

[JCBills]

Johnson may have maturity issues, but nothing like TO. TO had a reputation for being hard to coach and creating splits in the locker room. He had trouble with coaches and QBs, then the players were split over whether it was his fault or not. He would divide a team from within.

Johnson's issues are overblown. He has taken a couple stupid celebration penalties, but he is not the kind of headcase like DeSean Jackson or Brandon Marshall. He has had a couple big drops, but all WR have drops.

Johnson is a good player. The other stuff is overblown, IMO.

I know, I don't live under a rock, and he was a Bill for a season.

I was saying drops and maturity issues can be overlooked when the production is there.

[justasportsfan]

I NEVER said take away his best weapons without a replacement. If you go back to my original post, I said the Bills will be better off IF they get one of the other big name WR's in FA.




All I'm saying is that until that replacement is here, you try and keep Stevie.

[better days]

I NEVER said take away his best weapons without a replacement. If you go back to my original post, I said the Bills will be better off IF they get one of the other big name WR's in FA.

And yes, I agree that the FO SHOULD keep Stevie and give him another weapon, but they WON'T. It would be far too much money committed to one player.

So, I'm not even really sure what this discussion is about because it sounds like we're saying the same things.

Even if they don't add a big name FA, the Bills may be able to find a WR to ADD to the team WITH Stevie. You know, kind of how they ADDED Stevie when they did.

Sometimes the big name FAs do not add all that much to their new team. Brandon Marshall did very little for Miami. KEEP Stevie & add to the team. DO NOT create a NEW hole that has to be filled by letting him leave.

[OpIv37]

I'm sorry but this is a pretty backwards argument.

"What we have so far isn't good enough, so instead of trying to improve, which is what any team would try to do, let's get worse."

Can't say anyone is following.

I didn't say we SHOULDN'T try. I said the FO WON'T try.

I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that.

And I also don't understand why people think re-signing the same guys is "improving."

[dannyek71]

again, not gonna happen. The Bills just aren't going to commit that much money to one position.


Yea, why would we want to do that when we need it to overpay for Kelsey.

[OpIv37]

Even if they don't add a big name FA, the Bills may be able to find a WR to ADD to the team WITH Stevie. You know, kind of how they ADDED Stevie when they did.

Sometimes the big name FAs do not add all that much to their new team. Brandon Marshall did very little for Miami. KEEP Stevie & add to the team. DO NOT create a NEW hole that has to be filled by letting him leave.

Revisionist history. We ADDED Stevie with a 7th round draft pick because that was the FO's solution rather than paying another WR when they had already paid Evans.

We can't count on that strategy to work in the future because more often than not, 7th round WR's don't become stars or even starters.

If they keep Stevie, they will still need to commit more money to WR to improve. And they won't do it.

[Ickybaluky]

I know, I don't live under a rock, and he was a Bill for a season.

I was saying drops and maturity issues can be overlooked when the production is there.

I think the maturity issues aren't much of a concern at all. He wasn't fighting with coaches or teammates, he wrote some stuff on his shirt. It is really overblown. I don't see it as a factor at all when negotiating a contract.

The drops are something to take into account, but there are a number of WR who suffer concentration lapses and drop passes on occasion. You look at the whole body of work, and he has been a good, productive player over time.

Wes Welker was among the league leaders in drops in 2010, and he had a huge one in the Super Bowl (though it could have been a better throw). Doesn't mean I don't want him re-signed, the guy has been incredibly productive.

[OpIv37]

I know, I don't live under a rock, and he was a Bill for a season.

I was saying drops and maturity issues can be overlooked when the production is there.

Wow, I completely disagree with this and here's why: it's about wins. Stevie's "owning" of Revis got us one win.

His drops cost us two wins in the last two years. And I would argue that his immaturity cost us the NE game because we were winning before the penalty and the subsequent benching. Stevie's issues are costing us wins.

[OpIv37]

I think the maturity issues aren't much of a concern at all. He wasn't fighting with coaches or teammates, he wrote some stuff on his shirt. It is really overblown. I don't see it as a factor at all when negotiating a contract.

The drops are something to take into account, but there are a number of WR who suffer concentration lapses and drop passes on occasion. You look at the whole body of work, and he has been a good, productive player over time.

Wes Welker was among the league leaders in drops in 2010, and he had a huge one in the Super Bowl (though it could have been a better throw). Doesn't mean I don't want him re-signed, the guy has been incredibly productive.

You guys win with Welker. We don't win with Stevie.

[Ickybaluky]

You guys win with Welker. We don't win with Stevie.

I am not on the team.

The Pats have Tom Brady as well, Bills don't. It isn't Johnson's fault the Bills didn't win anymore than it was Larry Fitzgerald's fault the Card's didn't. It is a stupid argument.

[Philagape]

I am not on the team.

The Pats have Tom Brady as well, Bills don't. It isn't Johnson's fault the Bills didn't win anymore than it was Larry Fitzgerald's fault the Card's didn't. It is a stupid argument.

Agreed. Receivers don't win games. Calvin Johnson had 1,331 yards and 12 TDs the year the Lions went 0-16

[OpIv37]

I am not on the team.

The Pats have Tom Brady as well, Bills don't. It isn't Johnson's fault the Bills didn't win anymore than it was Larry Fitzgerald's fault the Card's didn't. It is a stupid argument.

I don't think it's a stupid argument at all.

Wes Welker is a key piece of the Patriots' success. It would be difficult- maybe impossible- to replace a player like him. If the Patriots want to continue their success, then they have to keep him.

The Bills don't have any success. They'll suck if they lose Stevie, they'll suck slightly less with him.

Or, to put it another way, the Patriots need to maintain, maybe improve slightly. The Bills need to improve greatly. The Patriots don't have any need to make big changes. The Bills clearly do.

[Cali512]

Wow, I completely disagree with this and here's why: it's about wins. Stevie's "owning" of Revis got us one win.

His drops cost us two wins in the last two years. And I would argue that his immaturity cost us the NE game because we were winning before the penalty and the subsequent benching. Stevie's issues are costing us wins.




It was also only his second season starting after being a 7th round pick. He didnt have the hype that other WRs get like Dez Bryant or Crabtree. Hes very attention needy, which is the reason he got so great, but thats also his down side. Coming in at a late round pick, the attention was not on him. So he worked extra hard, and did some stupid things to get hiself in the spotlight. But he sees it and understands the problems unlike most others. I would do a contract with alot of incentives and alot of if you do this this gets takin away. In all actuality, Goodel needs to **** hiself bc the stuff Stevie has done, shouldnt be a penalty. Showing personality while playing football is not bad. And if Johnson makes fun of the other team through a celebration or what not, he shouldnt be flagged, does goodell know that sparks the other team up? Hockey theres fights, NBA players dance cuss everything. Whys the most physical game the one that seems the most PG

[Philagape]

I don't think it's a stupid argument at all.

Wes Welker is a key piece of the Patriots' success. It would be difficult- maybe impossible- to replace a player like him. If the Patriots want to continue their success, then they have to keep him.

The Bills don't have any success. They'll suck if they lose Stevie, they'll suck slightly less with him.

Or, to put it another way, the Patriots need to maintain, maybe improve slightly. The Bills need to improve greatly. The Patriots don't have any need to make big changes. The Bills clearly do.

The Pats won three SBs before Welker and none with him. I think Brady has made Welker way more than vice versa. How much did he help Miami win? In his best season with the Fins they went 6-10.

The Bills need big changes at other positions.

[OpIv37]

It was also only his second season starting after being a 7th round pick. He didnt have the hype that other WRs get like Dez Bryant or Crabtree. Hes very attention needy, which is the reason he got so great, but thats also his down side. Coming in at a late round pick, the attention was not on him. So he worked extra hard, and did some stupid things to get hiself in the spotlight. But he sees it and understands the problems unlike most others. I would do a contract with alot of incentives and alot of if you do this this gets takin away. In all actuality, Goodel needs to **** hiself bc the stuff Stevie has done, shouldnt be a penalty. Showing personality while playing football is not bad. And if Johnson makes fun of the other team through a celebration or what not, he shouldnt be flagged, does goodell know that sparks the other team up? Hockey theres fights, NBA players dance cuss everything. Whys the most physical game the one that seems the most PG

Wow, there's a lot in here.

First, I agree that what Stevie did shouldn't be a penalty and Goodell has taken things so far. That being said, the rules are the rules and it's up to Stevie and every other player in the league to know and follow them. Stevie doesn't get to say "I'm not going to follow that rule because it's stupid." It's still on him to make better decisions.

Second, I'm not sure that he sees it and understands it. He got benched for not listening to his coaches on the celebration stuff, and his reaction on Twitter to the big drop this year was on par with his reaction to the big drop last year. I simply don't see the improvement from him on the maturity and focus issues. He's doing the same things he's always done.

[OpIv37]

The Pats won three SBs before Welker and none with him. I think Brady has made Welker way more than vice versa. How much did he help Miami win? In his best season with the Fins they went 6-10.

The Bills need big changes at other positions.

ok. Keep doing the same things.

We will keep getting the same results.

Don't be shocked when Stevie has a big drop in a crucial moment in a game. Don't be shocked when Stevie takes a stupid celebration penalty against a division opponent. And don't be shocked when we finish in the 6 win range again.

[Ickybaluky]

I don't think it's a stupid argument at all.

Wes Welker is a key piece of the Patriots' success. It would be difficult- maybe impossible- to replace a player like him. If the Patriots want to continue their success, then they have to keep him.

The Bills don't have any success. They'll suck if they lose Stevie, they'll suck slightly less with him.

Or, to put it another way, the Patriots need to maintain, maybe improve slightly. The Bills need to improve greatly. The Patriots don't have any need to make big changes. The Bills clearly do.

It is completely idiotic.

You don't get better by getting rid of your good players. Johnson is a good player. If you don't sign him, you have another good player to replace.

By your logic, any team that didn't win should be willing to let any player go. They didn't win anyway, so what is the big deal?

Does that sound right to you? You really think the Bills are going to get better by letting their productive players leave?

[Philagape]

I post, "The Bills need big changes ..."

And the reply is, "Keep doing the same things." :huh:

They haven't won with Kyle Williams either, should they have let him go? They haven't won with Dareus or Levitre or Fred Jackson, are they part of the problem too?

[OpIv37]

It is completely idiotic.

You don't get better by getting rid of your good players. Johnson is a good player. If you don't sign him, you have another good player to replace.

By your logic, any team that didn't win should be willing to let any player go. They didn't win anyway, so what is the big deal?

Does that sound right to you? You really think the Bills are going to get better by letting their productive players leave?

No, you don't get better by getting rid of your good players.

But, when your good players aren't good enough, you get better by getting rid of them and replacing them with better players. That's my logic.

Yes, I know it will be difficult to find someone better than Stevie. But it's not impossible and it beats the alternative of doing the same thing and expecting better results.

[OpIv37]

I post, "The Bills need big changes ..."

And the reply is, "Keep doing the same things." :huh:

They haven't won with Kyle Williams either, should they have let him go? They haven't won with Dareus or Levitre or Fred Jackson, are they part of the problem too?

You post the Bills need big changes, right after you advocated the status quo (ie, keeping Stevie). So, make up your mind.

And none of those other guys are in contract years except Jackson, and none of those other guys have the maturity issues that directly cost the team wins that Stevie has.

[Ickybaluky]

They haven't won with Kyle Williams either, should they have let him go? They haven't won with Dareus or Levitre or Fred Jackson, are they part of the problem too?

This is right to the point of why it is idiotic.

It hasn't been the productive players who are the problem, so why get rid of them?

[Ickybaluky]

But, when your good players aren't good enough, you get better by getting rid of them and replacing them with better players. That's my logic.

Yes, I know it will be difficult to find someone better than Stevie. But it's not impossible and it beats the alternative of doing the same thing and expecting better results.

It is a lot easier to sign and keep Johnson, whether by contract or the tag, than to find a replacement.

There aren't many guys better than Johnson who are available, and the few opportunities they may have to get one leaves them competing with a number of other teams which means they will cost a premium.

It is not logical at all. What is your scenario? When they let Johnson go, what are they going to do that makes them better than if he is here?

[Philagape]

You post the Bills need big changes, right after you advocated the status quo (ie, keeping Stevie). So, make up your mind.

And none of those other guys are in contract years except Jackson, and none of those other guys have the maturity issues that directly cost the team wins that Stevie has.

Big changes does not mean at every single position, which is what you imply when you say Stevie hasn't helped them win. Nobody has helped them win. It's a nonsensical argument.
and btw Levitre is up next year, like Jackson. I cited Williams because they already re-signed him. Was that a mistake since he hasn't helped them win?

[OpIv37]

This is right to the point of why it is idiotic.

It hasn't been the productive players who are the problem, so why get rid of them?

But see, that's poor logic.

We don't have enough productive players, and most of the "productive" players we do have aren't productive enough.

This team does not spend big. They do not take chances. If they tie up money on "productive" players who are not productive enough, that comes at the opportunity cost of improving that position and adding productivity. Spending money on Stevie gives the FO the opportunity to say they "addressed" the WR position when all they really did was maintain the status quo.

[Ickybaluky]

You are way under-valuing Johnson. The guy is a good player. He may not be top-10, but he has to be top-20 or so in the NFL at his position. Over 2,000 yards and 17 TD in the last 2 seasons is pretty good production. He is still a young, ascending player.

Again, what is your alternative? How are they better if he is gone? You are losing that production, who is going to be available that you add?

I know there are sexy names out there right now in FA, but by the time tags are finished or players are re-signed there isn't going to be a lot out there. What is left there will be a ton of teams competing for, so you will be paying a premium. It makes no sense to let Johnson go.

[JCBills]

I think the maturity issues aren't much of a concern at all. He wasn't fighting with coaches or teammates, he wrote some stuff on his shirt. It is really overblown. I don't see it as a factor at all when negotiating a contract.

The drops are something to take into account, but there are a number of WR who suffer concentration lapses and drop passes on occasion. You look at the whole body of work, and he has been a good, productive player over time.

Wes Welker was among the league leaders in drops in 2010, and he had a huge one in the Super Bowl (though it could have been a better throw). Doesn't mean I don't want him re-signed, the guy has been incredibly productive.

...right, this is what I was saying. Not sure what the disconnect is here.

[OpIv37]

You are way under-valuing Johnson. The guy is a good player. He may not be top-10, but he has to be top-20 or so in the NFL at his position. Over 2,000 yards and 17 TD in the last 2 seasons is pretty good production. He is still a young, ascending player.

Again, what is your alternative? How are they better if he is gone? You are losing that production, who is going to be available that you add?

I know there are sexy names out there right now in FA, but by the time tags are finished or players are re-signed there isn't going to be a lot out there. What is left there will be a ton of teams competing for, so you will be paying a premium. It makes no sense to let Johnson go.

I see it the opposite way. I think most people are over-valuing him because he had a few good games against Darelle Revis.

We all know who the big name FA WR's are this year, and yes, I realize they could be franchised or re-signed by their team, and even if they're not there is no guarantee that they will sign here. But I'd rather take a chance on improving than maintain the status quo and guarantee that we won't improve.

[Mr Bills]

Which top WR from this class can the Bills realistically get? KC's GM has said Bowe is going to be back one way or another. Wallace is getting tendered. Lloyd is going to follow Josh McDaniels to NE. Welker is getting tagged if he can't reach a deal with NE. That leaves really only Colston and Vincent Jackson. Teams like Bucs, Bengals, Jags, 49ers, and possibly Broncos and Titans all have more cap space than the Bills and are better ideal locations or better teams than Buffalo. Replacing Stevie with 2nd tier WRs who the Bills still have to probably overpay like Garcon, Manningham, and Meachem is a clear downgrade.

The only way the Bills can possibly upgrade their WR by letting Stevie go is using a 1st round pick on a WR. With all the holes the Bills already have, that would be a huge mistake.

[Ickybaluky]

I see it the opposite way. I think most people are over-valuing him because he had a few good games against Darelle Revis.

158 catches, 2,077 (13.1 YPR), 17 TD

That is more than just a few good games. That is pretty consistent production over 2 years. How many guys have been better than that during that span? Not a lot.


We all know who the big name FA WR's are this year, and yes, I realize they could be franchised or re-signed by their team, and even if they're not there is no guarantee that they will sign here. But I'd rather take a chance on improving than maintain the status quo and guarantee that we won't improve.

You don't know at all who the FA WR are going to be. Free agency doesn't even start until 2 weeks from next Tuesday.

Dwayne Bowe, DeSean Jackson & Wes Welker are likely to be franchised if not signed. The Steelers are going to give Mike Wallace at least a 1st round tender, and sound like they are going to either re-sign him or franchise him otherwise. San Diego is pushing hard to re-sign Vincent Jackson, and the most likely scenario right now is they sign him or franchise him.

That means you are choosing from the likes of Marques Colston, Brandon Lloyd, Reggie Wayne, Mario Manningham and Robert Meachem. Further, because so many teams have money to burn and a need at WR, you will be paying a premium for them. Given age and ability, do you think any of them are better than Johnson? I don't.

Everyone is excited by the names being thrown out there in FA, but most aren't going to be available. Given how much cap room teams have, most of those guys are going to be locked up before FA starts, whether by contract or tag.

The smart thing to do is protect your own assets first, and that is what teams will be doing. That is what the Bills should do with Johnson.

[justasportsfan]

But, when your good players aren't good enough,.again, Stevie is not the problem. The rest of the wr's are .

If we get rid of Stevie we will need to find 2 more wr's.If you keep Stevie you only need 1 more to compliment him.



you get better by getting rid of them and replacing them with better players. That's my logic. .
easier said than done when there are other teams fighting for the services of those better players. A better solution is ADDING more good players.

[OpIv37]

again, Stevie is not the problem. The rest of the wr's are .

If we get rid of Stevie we will need to find 2 more wr's.If you keep Stevie you only need 1 more to compliment him.



easier said than done when there are other teams fighting for the services of those better players. A better solution is ADDING more good players.

If we keep Stevie, we aren't finding another WR. The FO just won't do it.

[justasportsfan]

I can see this happening. The FO lets Stevie walk and the Pats picks him up and OP will create 100 threads about how our FO sucks ...we should have kept him.

[OpIv37]

I can see this happening. The FO lets Stevie walk and the Pats picks him up and OP will create 100 threads about how our FO sucks ...we should have kept him.

The FO failed in this situation a long time ago by relying too much on Stevie.

the ONLY correct thing for them to do in this situation is to keep Stevie AND find another WR to take the pressure off of him. But they won't do it.

They will either let Stevie walk and hope for a replacement in FA, or keep Stevie and go into next year with the same WR's we had last year. We might get a mid-late round draft pick if we're lucky.

[justasportsfan]

The FO failed in this situation a long time ago by relying too much on Stevie.

the ONLY correct thing for them to do in this situation is to keep Stevie AND find another WR to take the pressure off of him. But they won't do it.

They will either let Stevie walk and hope for a replacement in FA, or keep Stevie and go into next year with the same WR's we had last year. We might get a mid-late round draft pick if we're lucky.
they failed because they relied on guys like Jones.

[JCBills]

I don't think it's a stupid argument at all.

Wes Welker is a key piece of the Patriots' success. It would be difficult- maybe impossible- to replace a player like him. If the Patriots want to continue their success, then they have to keep him.

The Bills don't have any success. They'll suck if they lose Stevie, they'll suck slightly less with him.

Or, to put it another way, the Patriots need to maintain, maybe improve slightly. The Bills need to improve greatly. The Patriots don't have any need to make big changes. The Bills clearly do.

And letting good players go isn't the place to start. This shouldn't have to be discussed any further than that.

[JCBills]

If we keep Stevie, we aren't finding another WR. The FO just won't do it.

In FA? Maybe they won't but who's to say they won't make WR a day 2 priority this coming draft? Maybe even at #10? We have no idea what they will do.

Maybe we get lucky with a later round gem like Oakland did, or like Buffalo did with Stevie. Plenty of solid WRs have gone in later rounds in recent years.

[kingJofNYC]

Stevie probably would be better off somewhere, else, but this won't help the Bills one bit. Just another hole to fill, it's not like we have any proven WRs. Nelson's a nice slot/4th wideout but he can't play outside.

If we lose Stevie, we need to find a replacement for him, another receiver to play outside unless you feel D.Jones is a legit prospect, and a replacement for Roscoe.

Good luck with that.

[OpIv37]

Stevie probably would be better off somewhere, else, but this won't help the Bills one bit. Just another hole to fill, it's not like we have any proven WRs. Nelson's a nice slot/4th wideout but he can't play outside.

If we lose Stevie, we need to find a replacement for him, another receiver to play outside unless you feel D.Jones is a legit prospect, and a replacement for Roscoe.

Good luck with that.

I think we need to find a replacement for Stevie even if we keep Stevie. I don't think he's a true #1.

[better days]

I think we need to find a replacement for Stevie even if we keep Stevie. I don't think he's a true #1.

Stevie is not a true #1, Evans was a one trick pony. All I know is MANY teams would be happy to have Stevie & he would be the BEST WR on MANY teams.

[Ickybaluky]

I think if the Bills can't sign him and they get to the March 5 deadline they decide to franchise him. They may not think they will right now, but as teams sign guys or apply the franchise tag and the market gets smaller, they will re-access and figure protecting Johnson makes the most sense.

[YardRat]

And this is where Bills fans completely overrate Stevie. The fact that he "owned" Revis got us 1 win. He cost us a win with his drops. Net result: even.

And the way he reacted after both his big drops and the persistent celebration penalties show maturity issues that aren't improving.

Which win would that be?


Don't ***** about me *****ing. ***** about the FO being cheap and incompetent.

Cheap is a perception, incompetent is in the past (hopefully). Even you have to admit the current FO has made moves that are more encouraging than the previous regimes. Laying past failures on the current management is just plain lazy and ignorant. All you do is *****, any denial of such is just laughable.


Wes Welker is a key piece of the Patriots' success. It would be difficult- maybe impossible- to replace a player like him.

:rofl:

How many SB's have the Patriots won with Welker? Oh yeah, ZERO.
How many did they win without him? Oh yeah, THREE.

Definitely irreplaceable.


the ONLY correct thing for them to do in this situation is to keep Stevie AND find another WR to take the pressure off of him.

I agree, actually, but then that shoots your initial premise all to hell.


But they won't do it.

Remains to be seen, doesn't it? Of course, even if they do address it, you'll still ***** and maintain it isn't good enough and they didn't really try.

[OpIv37]

Which win would that be?



Cheap is a perception, incompetent is in the past (hopefully). Even you have to admit the current FO has made moves that are more encouraging than the previous regimes. Laying past failures on the current management is just plain lazy and ignorant. All you do is *****, any denial of such is just laughable.


Cheap is NOT a perception. Our coaches are consistently amongst the lowest paid in the league. We went into last season ~$20 million below the cap.

And I'm not thrilled with this FO so far. Their FA's have been mediocre- Barnett is decent, the rest are role players at best. No impact players. Their first draft was horrible- it will go to mediocre if Spiller pans out. And I hated the way they handled the Lynch situation. And I can't for the life of me figure out why they extended Kelsay for so much money.



:rofl:

How many SB's have the Patriots won with Welker? Oh yeah, ZERO.
How many did they win without him? Oh yeah, THREE.

Definitely irreplaceable.


Only one team can win the SB each year. Even the Pats won't win every year. They've won a ****load of games with Welker and there are few WR's with his level of athleticism.



I agree, actually, but then that shoots your initial premise all to hell.


No, not at all. My premise was based on the Bills getting a better WR than Stevie from the beginning.



Remains to be seen, doesn't it? Of course, even if they do address it, you'll still ***** and maintain it isn't good enough and they didn't really try.

Yeah, funny thing about that. The FO does a half-assed job addressing a position, I point out that it was half-assed, you guys ***** about me "*****ing", then the games start and the team sucks every year. Hmmmmm...... shoot the messenger syndrome alive and well. Again, it's easier to accuse me of "*****ing just to *****" then to face the reality that there is substance behind my perceived "*****ing."

And btw, you're making an argument based on your assumption of how I would react in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred. Weak.

[YardRat]

Cheap is NOT a perception. Our coaches are consistently amongst the lowest paid in the league.

Prove it.

If you can find public information ranking where coaches salaries sit relative to each other league-wide I'd like to see it.

[Mahdi]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_salaries_of_the_NFL_head_coaches

This shows that Buffalo paid Jauron 1.5 mil per year which was second lowest in the league only more than Kiffin who was coming out of the college ranks with zero NFL experience.

[better days]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_salaries_of_the_NFL_head_coaches

This shows that Buffalo paid Jauron 1.5 mil per year which was second lowest in the league only more than Kiffin who was coming out of the college ranks with zero NFL experience.

Well, the Bills OVERPAID Jauron by about 1.25 mil per year.