Shuttle and Arm length

[Cali512]

These are 2 very important things in getting a DE. Theres alot of arm work and balance involved, a player with a fast shuttle can you his arms to move side to side and around things, and the arm length helps when knowing a player can keep a OL hands off him. This allows the player to swipe away at a players hands with a good ammount of speed as he moves around the OT.


If a player has long arms but no agility and isnt fluid running, then the arms wont matter because the OT will be quick enough to stay in front. But a player like Ingram who has small arms but is quick, will possibly be able to at times run around the OT, but most likely the tackle will push him around. Players with a shuttle time and good arm length can do both

Players who have been successful that have good at these numbers

Aldon Smith- 35 3/8 arm length, shuttle 4.49
Justin Tuck- 33 1/4 arm lenth, shuttle 4.29
Mario Williams- 33 7/8 arm length. shuttle 4.37
Von Miller- 33 1/2 arm length, shuttle 4.06
Demarcus Ware- 34 arm length, shuttle 4.27
Jason Pierre Paul- 34 3/4 arm length, shuttle 4.67
Connor Barwin- 33 3/4 arm length, shuttle 4.18



Notice the players with big arms, dont need the speed
But the players with long but decent length have speed


Here are some busts


Vernon gholston- 32 1/8 arm length, 4.41 shuttle
Robert Ayers- 33 arms, 4.51 shuttle
Everette Brown- 33 arms, 4.53
Larry English- 32 3/4 arm length, 4.4 shuttle

Every player has 33 inch or under arms and no more than 4.4 shuttle. These are all busts of the past 5 years.



Now you see all these good players have 33+ length arms, and shuttle mostly around 4.4 and under

In the draft these players share similarities

Jack Crawford 33 1/2 arms, 4.25 shuttle- 5th round pick, 6.5 sacks Pen state
Justin Francis 33 7/8 arms, 4.35 shuttle 7th round pick, 6.5 sacks Rudgers
Bruce Irvin 33 3/8 arms, 4.03 shuttle 2nd, 8 sacks 2012, 2010 14 sacks
Cam Johnson 33 1/2 arms, 4.38 shuttle- 2nd, 4 sacks 2012
Chandler Jones 35 3/8 arms, 4.38 shuttle- 2nd, 2 sacks 2012
Andre Branch 34 arms, 4.25 2nd, 9 sacks 2012


Chandler Jones has been my favorite for a while because of his length of arms and the fact that with a little teaching of new moves, i think he can be dominant. Bruce Irvin is a player i like if we were in a 3-4, but if he drops for whatever reason to 3rd and we still havent gotten a passrusher, move him to DE and see what he can do. Cam Johnson is someone i didnt know till i made this, but i watched the film of him and i like him alot! He has so many moves, uses his hands extremely well. The last one of consideration is Andre Branch. 9.5 sacks so he has the best resume. But when watching him and knowing things, he doesnt have alot of moves and doesnt do great at anything. Very average looking

[Night Train]

Good stuff. Enjoyed the read.

[alohabillsfan]

for some reason I am a fan of Branch in the 2nd if he is there.

[TigerJ]

Perhaps Branch never developed the moves etc. because he was already producing, and wasn't pushed by coaches to do more. In addition to the good shuttle and long arms, he does have an excellent 40. Not necessarily pushing him, just adding some thoughts. Thanks for doing the research.

[CleveSteve]

Cam Johnson is someone i didnt know till i made this, but i watched the film of him and i like him alot! He has so many moves, uses his hands extremely well. The last one of consideration is Andre Branch. 9.5 sacks so he has the best resume. But when watching him and knowing things, he doesnt have alot of moves and doesnt do great at anything.

Totally agree with these comments. Cam Johnson is underrated and Andre Branch is very overrated. I watched the FSU/Clemson game with a focus on the linemen and Andrew Datko completely dominated him all game. Datko is considered a 4th round pick and Branch is fringe first? Give me a break.

[k-oneputt]

Chandler Jones certainly has the physical numbers, but why only 2 sacks last year ?

[Cali512]

Cam Johnson is officially my pick for 2nd-3rd round. He has everything you will want in a DE, he has speed and he uses his hands to get past an OT better than ive seen a DE do for the past few years. Hes the best right now DE in the draft in my opinion. Watch his film and he does things like, fake outside swim inside fluidly. When i say this i dont mean he over pursued then stopped and went after the QB, I mean he actually did a fake hesitation to the outside, then when inside to cleanly sack the QB. I like this kid, his hands are amazing

[Cali512]

Chandler Jones certainly has the physical numbers, but why only 2 sacks last year ?



Im guessing it was that he would get the pressure and Branch would get the sacks. It makes sense, Jones looked really good on tape and Branch sorda got lost and kinda doesnt seem great at all. Ill try to look up some videos and see if my statement is correct, but it does make sense that Jones has better physical numbers, and seems to be a better passrusher, and Branch seems to just be a one trick pony.

[Cali512]

Totally agree with these comments. Cam Johnson is underrated and Andre Branch is very overrated. I watched the FSU/Clemson game with a focus on the linemen and Andrew Datko completely dominated him all game. Datko is considered a 4th round pick and Branch is fringe first? Give me a break.




Cam Johnson will be the star out of this draft. Ive never seen a not top 15 prospect passrusher have so many moves. He spins swims bull rushes stunts drops into coverage (saw it 2 times, didnt look bad). He can play DE/OLB, i think even in the 2nd, hes a steal!

[CleveSteve]

I don't know if I'd put him at OLB, but I do think he can LE or RE in a 4-3. I think he's a 50-75 player myself. That's not a knock, I think he's pretty good.

[JCBills]

Cam I have pegged as great value for Buffalo's 3rd round pick.

2nd round I'd have to go with Vinny Curry.

[Cali512]

What are his knocks? What i see is he sometimes over persues, and he gets caught out of position in the run game at times. But as a pure passrusher, hell ya

[CleveSteve]

He's not overly strong... Kind of long and lean to be a DE. Not a real change-of-direction chase-and-pursue athlete like you'd want from a linebacker. Actually played OLB at Virginia for two years before they went back to a 4-3. In 883 plays in 2009 as an OLB he had only 2.0 sacks and had 0 INTs with 5 TFLs. In about 150 fewer plays in 2010, he had 6.5 sacks and 14.5 TFLs as a 4-3 DE.

http://www.virginiasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17800&ATCLID=1383151

He had only 4 sacks as a senior, those came against Indiana, So. Miss, Miami, and Duke. Miami and So. Miss both had legit RTs (IIRC he played LDE) but that's not a whole lot of production. He's not a big-time athelete and I think he's better suited to the left side, but I do think he is in that 50-75 range, as he has shown he's got some ability in pass rush, particularly at the senior bowl.

[Cali512]

He's not overly strong... Kind of long and lean to be a DE. Not a real change-of-direction chase-and-pursue athlete like you'd want from a linebacker. Actually played OLB at Virginia for two years before they went back to a 4-3. In 883 plays in 2009 as an OLB he had only 2.0 sacks and had 0 INTs with 5 TFLs. In about 150 fewer plays in 2010, he had 6.5 sacks and 14.5 TFLs as a 4-3 DE.

http://www.virginiasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17800&ATCLID=1383151

He had only 4 sacks as a senior, those came against Indiana, So. Miss, Miami, and Duke. Miami and So. Miss both had legit RTs (IIRC he played LDE) but that's not a whole lot of production. He's not a big-time athelete and I think he's better suited to the left side, but I do think he is in that 50-75 range, as he has shown he's got some ability in pass rush, particularly at the senior bowl.


3rd round would be a steal to me. Just watching the tapes ive seen, he does alot of things no other DE does in the draft, and his moves look that of Freeney.

[cookie G]

In 2010, a guest writer at footballoutsiders.com created a formula called Sackseer to predict the success of a DE or OLB. His formula consisted of 4 parts: shuttle time, vertical jump, a weighted sacks/game and the number of games missed in their career. Nothing about arm length though.

It really seemed pretty accurate, until he predicted Jerry Hughes would star and JPP would bust. One of the things he did bring up is that there hasn't been an elite pass rusher in 10 years with a shuttle time over 4.4. JPP woud be the original exception.

On that portion, I do think there is some correlation. Most of the guys who can't change direction fast enough in the shuttle (and probably the cone drill), don't usually make good pass rushers.

On your arm length thing, it might be splitting hairs a bit. Though it's true that Justin Tuck might have longer arms than Everette Brown or Robert Ayers, I question how much at additional 1/4" makes a difference.

[kingJofNYC]

Sackseer also predicted Maybin as the best DE by far in his draft class.

Here's another "formula" that someone came up with. (http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=481173)

Batten and Moats were both listed pretty high. Aldon Smith was not. Interesting nonetheless.

[Cali512]

In 2010, a guest writer at footballoutsiders.com created a formula called Sackseer to predict the success of a DE or OLB. His formula consisted of 4 parts: shuttle time, vertical jump, a weighted sacks/game and the number of games missed in their career. Nothing about arm length though.

It really seemed pretty accurate, until he predicted Jerry Hughes would star and JPP would bust. One of the things he did bring up is that there hasn't been an elite pass rusher in 10 years with a shuttle time over 4.4. JPP woud be the original exception.

On that portion, I do think there is some correlation. Most of the guys who can't change direction fast enough in the shuttle (and probably the cone drill), don't usually make good pass rushers.

On your arm length thing, it might be splitting hairs a bit. Though it's true that Justin Tuck might have longer arms than Everette Brown or Robert Ayers, I question how much at additional 1/4" makes a difference.



It does make a difference. 1 inch makes a huge difference because if a OL has long arms and you have even one inch shorter. When you put your arms out to push him you wont be able to because his arms will be in your chest

[Cali512]

Sackseer also predicted Maybin as the best DE by far in his draft class.

Here's another "formula" that someone came up with. (http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=481173)

Batten and Moats were both listed pretty high. Aldon Smith was not. Interesting nonetheless.



Players with really long arms that are around 4.4 4.5, are still part of the good players in my opinion. Maybin has shown on the jets he is a good passrusher, but he also is an exception bc his body is alot different then any DEs that come out. Aldon smith has long arms and is in the average speed wise, but with the long arms he does well. Moats should be great based on my report, but i actually think with a perminant postition, he will be a good pass rush specialist

[JCBills]

Players with really long arms that are around 4.4 4.5, are still part of the good players in my opinion. Maybin has shown on the jets he is a good passrusher, but he also is an exception bc his body is alot different then any DEs that come out. Aldon smith has long arms and is in the average speed wise, but with the long arms he does well. Moats should be great based on my report, but i actually think with a perminant postition, he will be a good pass rush specialist

Maybin had mostly coverage sacks and still has nothing more than a speed rush. I wouldn't say that makes him a good pass rusher.

Moats is much smaller than the guys listed. Height is his big question. All the other numbers check out, but aren't a guarantee.

[YardRat]

I know he's a DT but I can't find the thread about him so I'm posting here because it's somewhat relevant...Poe looks like he has the wingspan of a T-Rex and would have trouble getting to the change in the bottom of his pockets.

[Cali512]

I know he's a DT but I can't find the thread about him so I'm posting here because it's somewhat relevant...Poe looks like he has the wingspan of a T-Rex and would have trouble getting to the change in the bottom of his pockets.




I love Poe, but i dont think of him for 3 reasons. 1, most obviously not in 3-4 anymore. 2, Nix, Gailey, or Whaley havvnt mentioned any idea of DT at all. And 3rd, i dont see our DE we get in this years draft, being a converted anything. No hybrids, and no DT turning to DEs, Gailey said he wants a pure DE.

[Cali512]

In 2010, a guest writer at footballoutsiders.com created a formula called Sackseer to predict the success of a DE or OLB. His formula consisted of 4 parts: shuttle time, vertical jump, a weighted sacks/game and the number of games missed in their career. Nothing about arm length though.

It really seemed pretty accurate, until he predicted Jerry Hughes would star and JPP would bust. One of the things he did bring up is that there hasn't been an elite pass rusher in 10 years with a shuttle time over 4.4. JPP woud be the original exception.

On that portion, I do think there is some correlation. Most of the guys who can't change direction fast enough in the shuttle (and probably the cone drill), don't usually make good pass rushers.

On your arm length thing, it might be splitting hairs a bit. Though it's true that Justin Tuck might have longer arms than Everette Brown or Robert Ayers, I question how much at additional 1/4" makes a difference.



Also most OTs have 33-36 inch arms. 34 is average, 33 is under, and 36 is long. If you have an OT whos fast and has 34-35 inch arms. 90% of the time, he will be facing someone of equal or smaller arms. Thats a huge assest for a DE, not only that but with a proper shuttle time, you know that the player can quickly run around the OT and have the arm length to swat there arms off them. Now think of this, Melvin Ingram has 31 inch arm. That sucks big time. Now he will never have the mismatch, and OTs will be able to keep him wayy away from him. His speed may help a little, but he will never be consistant.

The difference from 33 1/2 to say 32. Thats huge. The OT can extend his arms, and the DE will not be able to grab him with shorter arms. Even if its an inch and a half off. Look at that on a ruller and try seeing how long it is.

[Ickybaluky]

It does make a difference. 1 inch makes a huge difference because if a OL has long arms and you have even one inch shorter. When you put your arms out to push him you wont be able to because his arms will be in your chest

Long arms can be helpful, but there is more than one way to get the job done.

A guy like Dwight Freeney gets by despite being only 6-1 with 33 inch arms. Granted he has exceptional quickness. His quickness and technique are so superior he can rush off the edge on much bigger, taller players.

Others I can think of are Elvis Dumervil (32 inch arms), Lamarr Woodley (32 7/8 inch arms), Terrell Suggs (32 inch arms) and Trent Cole (32 7/8 inch arms). All shorter pass-rushers that lack arm-length but great pass rushers.

Shorter rushers sometimes have the advantage because they are quick and strong and get under OT. Low man wins in football, and once an outside rusher gets under a tackle he controls him.

Edit: Osi Umenyiora and Robert Mathis are others (32 inch arms). Lots of good short-arms rushers.

[Cali512]

Long arms can be helpful, but there is more than one way to get the job done.

A guy like Dwight Freeney gets by despite being only 6-1 with 33 inch arms. Granted he has exceptional quickness. His quickness and technique are so superior he can rush off the edge on much bigger, taller players.

Others I can think of are Elvis Dumervil (32 inch arms), Lamarr Woodley (32 7/8 inch arms), Terrell Suggs (32 inch arms) and Trent Cole (32 7/8 inch arms). All shorter pass-rushers that lack arm-length but great pass rushers.

Shorter rushers sometimes have the advantage because they are quick and strong and get under OT. Low man wins in football, and once an outside rusher gets under a tackle he controls him.


List there shuttles
There also OLBs cept Trent Cole. Speed matters more than arm length on that position. I believe shorter players with short arms are fine because the OT is usually really tall and i think the reach is shortened when trying to push smaller players.

[Ickybaluky]

List there shuttles
There also OLBs cept Trent Cole. Speed matters more than arm length on that position. I believe shorter players with short arms are fine because the OT is usually really tall and i think the reach is shortened when trying to push smaller players.

Actually, most of those guys are DE.

Speed does matter, but there are so many short-arms outside rushers that arm-length doesn't seem to be a huge factor. Technique is far more important. Long-arms aren't as big a deal as you think. There are all different ways to rush the QB, and if I were to pick the biggest factors it would be ability to get off the ball and leverage (strength). You can find good rushers with long arms and short.

[Cali512]

Actually, most of those guys are DE.

Speed does matter, but there are so many short-arms outside rushers that arm-length doesn't seem to be a huge factor. Technique is far more important. Long-arms aren't as big a deal as you think. There are all different ways to rush the QB, and if I were to pick the biggest factors it would be ability to get off the ball and leverage (strength). You can find good rushers with long arms and short.



Suggs, Dummerville, and Woodley are all OLBs. Cole is the only pure DE. And what im saying is players who have a mix of both have a easier time, and more become great. Its a good thing to look at.

[cookie G]

Also most OTs have 33-36 inch arms. 34 is average, 33 is under, and 36 is long. If you have an OT whos fast and has 34-35 inch arms. 90% of the time, he will be facing someone of equal or smaller arms. Thats a huge assest for a DE, not only that but with a proper shuttle time, you know that the player can quickly run around the OT and have the arm length to swat there arms off them. Now think of this, Melvin Ingram has 31 inch arm. That sucks big time. Now he will never have the mismatch, and OTs will be able to keep him wayy away from him. His speed may help a little, but he will never be consistant.

The difference from 33 1/2 to say 32. Thats huge. The OT can extend his arms, and the DE will not be able to grab him with shorter arms. Even if its an inch and a half off. Look at that on a ruller and try seeing how long it is.

Well, if I had a prospect that said he couldn't overcome a 1" or 1 1/2 " reach advantage, I wouldn't want the guy either.

And if I had a scout that told me a 1" reach advantage was fatal, I'd beat him within an inch of his life.

A guy with a 1 inch reach advantage is not going to be able to hold his hand on the other guy's forehead and let him swing wildly, like some kid's cartoon.

That's getting into absurdity.

[k-oneputt]

I'll tell you the best measuring stick, turn on the film and see if he produces at a high level against top competition.
Start with that and end with that. You can fill the .1 of a second from the 40 and .5 inch in arm length in the end of the game film.
I'll take football instincts and football mentality over the .5 of arm length.