Renovating the Ralph is the best case scenario

[THATHURMANATOR]

In this scenario it is going to be a price-tag of just over 200 million from what I read in the news today. These renovations will focus on fan experience. Yes we will be hit a bit in taxes. What we won't be hit with is the thousands of dollars of PSL's that we would if there was to be a new stadium built.

People ***** now about prices. Imagine if you had to plunk down 5k for PSLs on top of your ticket price. I know it would make me take a step back before purchasing. Well not me personally but me explaining to my wife why there is 5 k missing from our savings account.

Also our beloved tailgate will not be harmed.

:thurm2:

[dannyek71]

Who *****es about prices? I sit 4 rows from the field and pay something like $400 for the season. I don't think you could get the same seats for less than 10x more down in NJ

[THATHURMANATOR]

Who *****es about prices? I sit 4 rows from the field and pay something like $400 for the season. I don't think you could get the same seats for less than 10x more down in NJ
Not me. Prices are amazing to me, but people do.

And you are making my point. If a new stadium was built our ticket prices increase by 10x

[gr8slayer]

In this scenario it is going to be a price-tag of just over 200 million from what I read in the news today. These renovations will focus on fan experience. Yes we will be hit a bit in taxes. What we won't be hit with is the thousands of dollars of PSL's that we would if there was to be a new stadium built.

People ***** now about prices. Imagine if you had to plunk down 5k for PSLs on top of your ticket price. I know it would make me take a step back before purchasing. Well not me personally but me explaining to my wife why there is 5 k missing from our savings account.

Also our beloved tailgate will not be harmed.

:thurm2:
One nice thing about the PSL's is that you don't have to pay it all upfront. It doesn't make up for the fact that you have to pay it, but it sure makes it easier.

[THATHURMANATOR]

One nice thing about the PSL's is that you don't have to pay it all upfront. It doesn't make up for the fact that you have to pay it, but it sure makes it easier.
Ok but I don't want to pay them AT ALL.

[gr8slayer]

Ok but I don't want to pay them AT ALL.
That's the price you pay for a nice facility.

[Blacksheep71]

No new stadium makes it easier for the LA Bills to come into existence.

[gr8slayer]

No new stadium makes it easier for the LA Bills to come into existence.
Exactly, and that's why I would personally prefer the new stadium route. If you and the community are going to invest $800(ish) million in a new stadium, there's a zero percent chance that the talk of moving comes up for another thirty years.

[THATHURMANATOR]

That's the price you pay for a nice facility.
Or not in this case since renovating will make the stadium nice as well. Hook up the bathrooms and we are in BUSINESS!

Already has the best sight lines in the league, which by the way is the main reason to be there.

I am there to watch football not do pussy ****.

[BLeonard]

Ok but I don't want to pay them AT ALL.

The thing is, eventually, the Bills are going to need a new stadium. Now, that might be 20 years down the road, but with inflation and all that, the PSL's at that time will likely be greater than they would be if they just built a new stadium to be ready, say, three years down the road.

Renovating the Ralph is all well and good, but when all is said and done, that's only a temporary solution to keep them in WNY.

-Bill

[THATHURMANATOR]

No new stadium makes it easier for the LA Bills to come into existence.
Not when it comes with a 200 million dollar renovation and new lease.

[THATHURMANATOR]

The thing is, eventually, the Bills are going to need a new stadium. Now, that might be 20 years down the road, but with inflation and all that, the PSL's at that time will likely be greater than they would be if they just built a new stadium to be ready, say, three years down the road.

Renovating the Ralph is all well and good, but when all is said and done, that's only a temporary solution to keep them in WNY.

-Bill
a temporary or a 20 year solution???

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think they can really do wonders on the Ralph for 200+ million. The last renovations were only focused on the suites etc. Moving the gates out and improving concessions, bathrooms, and sound would be great.

[BLeonard]

a temporary or a 20 year solution???

In today's world, 20 years is temporary...

Also, from all that I have read, a new lease likely would be the same length as the current CBA is... Which is 10 years.

IMO, any renovation would only result in a lease of 15 years MAX... Especially given the fact that our owner is 90 plus years old... I can about bet that a new owner is going to be pushing for a new stadium as soon as they possibly can.

NYS had no problems plunking down hundreds of millions of dollars for new stadiums for the Yankees, Mets, Giants and Jets (which by the way, Giants Stadium was 3 years younger than RWS is and isn't even in NYS). I see no reason why the Bills should not be able to receive the same type of treatment.

-Bill

[X-Era]

Who *****es about prices? I sit 4 rows from the field and pay something like $400 for the season. I don't think you could get the same seats for less than 10x more down in NJTell people the Bills just raised the ticket prices 10 bucks... they're here.

[BLeonard]

I think they can really do wonders on the Ralph for 200+ million. The last renovations were only focused on the suites etc. Moving the gates out and improving concessions, bathrooms, and sound would be great.

Also, where are you getting this $200 million figure? Last I saw (admittedly, I haven't seen anything in a few weeks) the price tag was estimated around $100-$120 million. One of the things being discussed as part of the renovation is moving the press box to a corner of the stadium and using the old space for more suites. The rest is for structural, not to upgrade any anemities.

-Bill

[BLeonard]

Just read the Buffalo News article that said the project would be "well north" of the $100 million, according to Brandon.

There has to be a point, dollar wise where people say "why not just spend a bit more, get a brand new stadium and not have to worry about this sort of thing again for a while?" I don't know where that point is, but stadiums like Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy were built just a few years ago for about $720 million. It's not like you need to spend a billion dollars to have a state-of-the-art facility.

Unfortunately, chances are that a new stadium would almost certainly mean having a roof (or at least a retracable one) in order to make the stadium multi-purpose.

The good news on that is, as the home team, the Bills could elect to keep the roof open on game days... Not saying they would but it it certainly would be their choice.

-Bill

[Blacksheep71]

The thing is, eventually, the Bills are going to need a new stadium. Now, that might be 20 years down the road, but with inflation and all that, the PSL's at that time will likely be greater than they would be if they just built a new stadium to be ready, say, three years down the road.

Renovating the Ralph is all well and good, but when all is said and done, that's only a temporary solution to keep them in WNY.

-Bill

Exactly

M&T Bank Stadium $220m in 1998, $314m if built today
Heinz Field $281m in 2001, $369m if built today
Invesco Field $365m in 2001, $479m if built today
Reliant Stadium $352m in 2002, $445m if built today

In the last 10 years the cost of building a stadium has increased by 25-30%

In addition, the NFL have a fund for new stadia and have recently contributed $200m towards a stadium in LA, and a stadium for the 49ers.

With the exception of the Cowboys Stadiums there are also naming rights which can be sold and go towards costs. Even Jacksonville have been able to get money for an existing stadium.

Reliant - $300m/32years - $9.375m a season
Lucas Oil -$121/20years - $6m a season
Uni of Az - $154m/20years - $7.5m a season
Metlife - $400m/25years - $16m a season

and Invesco paid Denver $120m/10years and they are based in Atlanta

So if the city is going to give $200m anyway, we can get $200m from the NFL, and naming rights of about $150m then we've got a pot of about $550m

Remember the Reliant would cost $445m at todays' prices. The reason why people think it cost so much more is that there a load of non-stadium extras which cities decide to bolt on and infrastructure that needs to be built. Downtown close to the First Niagara and most of the infrastructure is in place. Qwest Field beside the Safeco didn't require much new infrastructure but for the entire complex would today cost $556m - that's the stadium and everything else.

The Metlife deal is that if any team breaks the deal within 25 years the cost is ridiculously prohibative.

What I can't see is if the price the taxpayer pays for renovations ($200m) is the same as the contribution towards a new stadium ($200m), why not go for the new stadium?

[THATHURMANATOR]

In today's world, 20 years is temporary...

Also, from all that I have read, a new lease likely would be the same length as the current CBA is... Which is 10 years.

IMO, any renovation would only result in a lease of 15 years MAX... Especially given the fact that our owner is 90 plus years old... I can about bet that a new owner is going to be pushing for a new stadium as soon as they possibly can.

NYS had no problems plunking down hundreds of millions of dollars for new stadiums for the Yankees, Mets, Giants and Jets (which by the way, Giants Stadium was 3 years younger than RWS is and isn't even in NYS). I see no reason why the Bills should not be able to receive the same type of treatment.

-Bill
Give me the temporary (20 year ) solution

- Corey

[BLeonard]

Give me the temporary (20 year ) solution

- Corey

They did that back in 1998... That was a 15 year solution that cost about $200 million.

How many more times should the temporary solution be the answer?

Also, just an FYI, there's nothing that says the Bills couldn't take the PSL route at RWS, which seems to be your big hang-up on a new stadium.

What happens if they approve the $200 mil for renovations, etc and they decide to start charging for PSL's anyway?

-Bill

[Blacksheep71]

Just read the Buffalo News article that said the project would be "well north" of the $100 million, according to Brandon.

There has to be a point, dollar wise where people say "why not just spend a bit more, get a brand new stadium and not have to worry about this sort of thing again for a while?" I don't know where that point is, but stadiums like Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy were built just a few years ago for about $720 million. It's not like you need to spend a billion dollars to have a state-of-the-art facility.

Unfortunately, chances are that a new stadium would almost certainly mean having a roof (or at least a retracable one) in order to make the stadium multi-purpose.

The good news on that is, as the home team, the Bills could elect to keep the roof open on game days... Not saying they would but it it certainly would be their choice.

-Bill

The reason why the Lucas Oil stadium was so expensive was because of the Asthetics of the design pushed up the cost.

If built today this would be the cost of the following stadiums

Reliant Stadium $455m
Uni of Phoenix $525m

The Rogers Centre was so expensive because they wanted a silly design. There is a company in Germany called Gerkan, Marg und Partner who have built stadia in Warsaw, Bucharest and Frankfurt as well as the new BC Place roof and could likely build a 70,000 seater with canopy retractable roof for under $400m.

The Vikings messed around for the last 5 years and have found a new stadium now will cost 30% more.

[THATHURMANATOR]

They did that back in 1998... That was a 15 year solution that cost about $200 million.

How many more times should the temporary solution be the answer?

Also, just an FYI, there's nothing that says the Bills couldn't take the PSL route at RWS, which seems to be your big hang-up on a new stadium.

What happens if they approve the $200 mil for renovations, etc and they decide to start charging for PSL's anyway?

-Bill
Why not every 15 or 20 years...

The last time the renovations were strictly luxury box related. This time fan experience related.

[THATHURMANATOR]

What happens if they approve the $200 mil for renovations, etc and they decide to start charging for PSL's anyway?

-Bill
They wont

[tampabay25690]

Not me. Prices are amazing to me, but people do.

And you are making my point. If a new stadium was built our ticket prices increase by 10x

Prices are so cheap in buffalo.
That allows me to still own tickets when they are so cheap.
New stadium it would be hard for me to float the extra money for a dsl...

[BLeonard]

Why not every 15 or 20 years...

The last time the renovations were strictly luxury box related. This time fan experience related.

Again, how many times do you do that before it gets to a point that you can't do anymore with the current structure?

I read that KC's renovation basically retro-fitted everything but the actual stadium bowl and that only cost $400 million to do.

I'm not against them renovating RWS... But the fact remains, in 15 years (or less, due to the rate of advancing technology) we're gonna be having the same discussion again... My guess is, if the internet was what it is now back in 1998, we'd have been having the same discussion that we are now...

Besides, the best "fan experiece" they could give is the team on the field winning. Win football gaes and I care a helluva lot less about what I can or can't put on my hotdog while I'm at the game.

-Bill

[THATHURMANATOR]

Prices are so cheap in buffalo.
That allows me to still own tickets when they are so cheap.
New stadium it would be hard for me to float the extra money for a dsl...
Yeah that is my point. I can't be fronting 5k or whatever in PSLs...

[THATHURMANATOR]

Again, how many times do you do that before it gets to a point that you can't do anymore with the current structure?

I read that KC's renovation basically retro-fitted everything but the actual stadium bowl and that only cost $400 million to do.

I'm not against them renovating RWS... But the fact remains, in 15 years (or less, due to the rate of advancing technology) we're gonna be having the same discussion again... My guess is, if the internet was what it is now back in 1998, we'd have been having the same discussion that we are now...

Besides, the best "fan experiece" they could give is the team on the field winning. Win football gaes and I care a helluva lot less about what I can or can't put on my hotdog while I'm at the game.

-Bill
We do it 4 times

[YardRat]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=3631561#post3631561

This was addressed in the other thread.

I don't know why some people keep ignoring Brandon's comments. Last I knew, he was a little bit sharp with the marketing dept.

It's expected the cost of the stadium renovation the Bills want will be a little bit more than $200 million

"In the retrofit, you're looking at $450 million to $500 million,"

"New stadiums cost anywhere from $800 million and north."

"You're looking at huge public funds and bonds. Then you're looking again at PSLs and much higher ticket prices. We don't believe there's sufficient public support or sufficient fan interest in making that kind of investment."

If anybody has a pretty accurate assessment of what the area can afford and what it can't, it's Brandon.

[BLeonard]

They wont

Funny how you dismiss that so quickly... Like they wouldn't change the parking situation, where you could park wherever you want and tailgate with your friends, right?

If they thoght they could do it and make money, it would be done tomorrow... Hell, look at Brandon's quote:



"In the retrofit, you're looking at $450 million to $500 million," Brandon said. "You're looking at huge public funds and bonds. Then you're looking again at PSLs and much higher ticket prices. We don't believe there's sufficient public support or sufficient fan interest in making that kind of investment."


That was based on potentially retrofitting RWS... The issue is, they don't think they'd be able to sell them.

Now, in a few years, if the team has turned around and people are buying tickets up like hotcakes, that opinion of "sufficisnt fan interest" could change very quickly.

-Bill

[THATHURMANATOR]

This thread is addressing it better

[BLeonard]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=3631561#post3631561

This was addressed in the other thread.

I don't know why some people keep ignoring Brandon's comments. Last I knew, he was a little bit sharp with the marketing dept.

It's expected the cost of the stadium renovation the Bills want will be a little bit more than $200 million

"In the retrofit, you're looking at $450 million to $500 million,"

"New stadiums cost anywhere from $800 million and north."

"You're looking at huge public funds and bonds. Then you're looking again at PSLs and much higher ticket prices. We don't believe there's sufficient public support or sufficient fan interest in making that kind of investment."

If anybody has a pretty accurate assessment of what the area can afford and what it can't, it's Brandon.

Not what the area CAN afford... What they BE WILLING to pay.

Again, in a couple years, if the team is a perennial playoff contender, that could change easily.

I'm not saying it WILL happen (having PSL's at RWS) but I firmly believe that, under the right circumstances, it COULD happen.

Also, again, eventually, the Bills are going to need a new stadium... RWS isn't Wrigley Field... It's not Fenway Park... It's not going to be around forever.

It's also the 6th oldest stadium in the NFL... That's not counting Soldier Field, which "re-opened" in 2003 after a major renovation. The stadiums older than RWS:

1: Lambeau: Has undergone several renovations, including one in 2003 which cost $293 million and are planning another one, which is why they sold stock this past winter.

2: Candlestick: The 49ers are getting a new stadium, as mentioned before.

3: Oakland Coliseum: One of the candidates for LA.

4: Qualcomm Stadium: Another candidate for LA.

5: Arrowhead: Just had a $450 million renovation, as mentioned before.

So, why should the Bills settle for a 10-15 year "bandaid" when every other stadium older than the Bills has either had major renovations, or is a threat to move to LA, due to their stadium situation?

-Bill

[YardRat]

Not what the area CAN afford... What they BE WILLING to pay.

'Willing to pay' is far more important than 'can afford', and 'sufficient public support' refers to taxpayers and legislatures, not ticket buyers.

[better days]

Again, how many times do you do that before it gets to a point that you can't do anymore with the current structure?





-Bill

Well, Fenway Park is 100 years old & still going.

[DraftBoy]

Don't like the solution but I also agree the area can't handle the full cost of a new stadium. It's a temporary fix, but if it works then Im good with it.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I like it. Temporary fix for 15 or 20 years.

Love the Ralph. I don't see any reason for a new stadium .

[ddaryl]

So what's going to happen to this league lets say in 20 years when the cost to build a new stadium tops $1 billion and the PSL's needed to fund it are $50K +++. small markets won't have a chance...

Everyone is talking short term band-aids for the Bills renovations, but what I'm reading between the lines is lots of pro teams are going to be in big trouble when there only route is heavily inflating ticket prices and PSL's in a nation where it's middle class income has been stagnant for decades or retracted when you factor in inflation and cost of living.

Of course I've been thinking this way for awhile... The game cannot sustain that big of price boost dumped on the masses, the next generations will simply focus on other needs with their limited incomes.


I wonder what $200 million in renovations will really accomplish at the Ralph.

[jamze132]

Can a new stadium be built for $500M?

If so, it makes sense to go that route and raise prices. We don't want to be in the same boat 20 years from now talking about NFL expansion.

[justasportsfan]

without anyone knowing what will happen to the team once Ralphy passes, a lease is the way to go.

[PromoTheRobot]

You could cover $200M with a combination of ticket fees, bonds, naming rights, ancillary development and user fees. Over 15 years $200M is only $13.33M/year. Git'r dun.

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

So what's going to happen to this league lets say in 20 years when the cost to build a new stadium tops $1 billion and the PSL's needed to fund it are $50K +++. small markets won't have a chance...

Everyone is talking short term band-aids for the Bills renovations, but what I'm reading between the lines is lots of pro teams are going to be in big trouble when there only route is heavily inflating ticket prices and PSL's in a nation where it's middle class income has been stagnant for decades or retracted when you factor in inflation and cost of living.

Of course I've been thinking this way for awhile... The game cannot sustain that big of price boost dumped on the masses, the next generations will simply focus on other needs with their limited incomes.


I wonder what $200 million in renovations will really accomplish at the Ralph.
RWS is still a useful stadium. It's more cost efficient to renovate than build new. At some point you will need a new stadium but not now.

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

So, why should the Bills settle for a 10-15 year "bandaid" when every other stadium older than the Bills has either had major renovations, or is a threat to move to LA, due to their stadium situation?

-Bill

Because it's not a "band-aid" as you call it. Do you buy a new car because your old one needs tires? A new stadium is $1B. Then you have to demolish RWS and you are left with a big hole in the ground. This is the best plan.

PTR

[THATHURMANATOR]

For one the Ralph is not in bad shape AT ALL. Just doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the newer joints.

I think 200+ million can buy a lot of Bells and Whistles.

[PTI]

Sacramento Kings owners just got laughed at huge for saying they can just renovate, they will likely lose their NBA team .

[THATHURMANATOR]

Sacramento Kings owners just got laughed at huge for saying they can just renovate, they will likely lose their NBA team .
What does this have to do with this situation?

[MikeNC]

Havng been away for quite a while, is there enough corporate interests left in BUF to justify more suites? If the stadium were not so far removed from the city, it would be nice to see a full time entertainment center built, some type of urban village with bars and restaurants...I am nor sure how much tourism Niagara Falls brings in, but if it is significant, tie in a stadium tour with a falls tour....

[THATHURMANATOR]

Havng been away for quite a while, is there enough corporate interests left in BUF to justify more suites? If the stadium were not so far removed from the city, it would be nice to see a full time entertainment center built, some type of urban village with bars and restaurants...I am nor sure how much tourism Niagara Falls brings in, but if it is significant, tie in a stadium tour with a falls tour....
The Stadium is really not all that far from Downtown. Like 20 minutes

[BillyT92679]

I like it. Temporary fix for 15 or 20 years.

Love the Ralph. I don't see any reason for a new stadium .
Not for fifteen or twenty years. Ten at most, and whoever owns the team will sabre-rattle for some major changes.

[Blacksheep71]

Not for fifteen or twenty years. Ten at most, and whoever owns the team will sabre-rattle for some major changes.

at which point it will be 30% more expensive again the city will balk at the cost, and in 2022, we will see the first season of the LA Bills live from Farmers Field in Southern California.

[DraftBoy]

The Stadium is really not all that far from Downtown. Like 20 minutes

That is horribly far from the downtown area.

[THATHURMANATOR]

That is horribly far from the downtown area.
But remember Buffalo is a sprawl city.

I would almost wager a guess that at this point there are more people living within or 10 minutes of the Ralph that would attend games than if it was located right downtown.

Not many people live downtown at all.

Same holds true for the corporations in this area. I would say more are headquartered in the burbs in business parks than right downtown.

[DraftBoy]

But remember Buffalo is a sprawl city.

I would almost wager a guess that at this point there are more people living within or 10 minutes of the Ralph that would attend games than if it was located right downtown.

Not many people live downtown at all.

Same holds true for the corporations in this area. I would say more are headquartered in the burbs in business parks than right downtown.

Well that says alot about those fans then if they wouldn't drive 20 minutes to the game, doesn't it?

[OpIv37]

I don't get all this talk about a stadium with a retractable roof.

It's a waste of money because that roof would be closed for every game after the first two weeks of the year. It would never be opened in bad weather just to preserve our "home field" advantage over warm-weather teams like the Fish.

My preference is no roof at all, but if they are going to do it, they might as well just save the money and make it a fixed dome.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well that says alot about those fans then if they wouldn't drive 20 minutes to the game, doesn't it?
Don't know what you mean here.

They drive from all around the county and state to go to the games.

My point is there are physically more people. Orchard park, West Seneca, South Buffalo. All very close and more densly populated that the Downtown area. There is not a lot of housing right downtown.

My point was I don't see the problem with the stadium 20 minutes from downtown.

Why would that matter at all?

[THATHURMANATOR]

I don't get all this talk about a stadium with a retractable roof.

It's a waste of money because that roof would be closed for every game after the first two weeks of the year. It would never be opened in bad weather just to preserve our "home field" advantage over warm-weather teams like the Fish.

My preference is no roof at all, but if they are going to do it, they might as well just save the money and make it a fixed dome.
I agree 100%. They would NEVER leave it open in a snow storm.

[DraftBoy]

Don't know what you mean here.

They drive from all around the county and state to go to the games.

My point is there are physically more people. Orchard park, West Seneca, South Buffalo. All very close and more densly populated that the Downtown area. There is not a lot of housing right downtown.

My point was I don't see the problem with the stadium 20 minutes from downtown.

Why would that matter at all?

Population Density isn't the point, the stadium shouldn't be designed for what's most conveneint to where people live. It should be designed for where it can make the larget economic impact for the city and county.

How many bars, stores, and restaurants are within walking distance of the Ralph for before or after a game? Let's say within one mile for purposes of the question. Also what mass transit options exist for people to get to the Ralph who don't want to deal with the hassel that is parking?

[OpIv37]

Population Density isn't the point, the stadium shouldn't be designed for what's most conveneint to where people live. It should be designed for where it can make the larget economic impact for the city and county.

How many bars, stores, and restaurants are within walking distance of the Ralph for before or after a game? Let's say within one mile for purposes of the question. Also what mass transit options exist for people to get to the Ralph who don't want to deal with the hassel that is parking?

Have you ever been to the Ralph?

There are only maybe 2 bars within walking distance, and there's no public transit anywhere remotely nearby. It's literally in the middle of nowhere.

But, because of that, parking isn't really a hassle. Official stadium lots are cheaper than other cities, and there are plenty of private lots (often just people who let you park on their lawns) nearby.

And this, of course, leads to a ton of tailgating.

If the stadium were moved downtown, sure, the bars and restaurants would benefit, but the parking situation would become a nightmare and it would kill the tailgating.

[BLeonard]

Because it's not a "band-aid" as you call it. Do you buy a new car because your old one needs tires? A new stadium is $1B. Then you have to demolish RWS and you are left with a big hole in the ground. This is the best plan.

PTR

After I buy new tires so many times, it's gonna get to the point where it's smarter to just buy a new car... This isn't the first time RWS would be undergoing a $200 million plus renovation.

As for a new stadium costing $1B, that's only if you insist on having a stadium like Jerruh in Dallas. Many recently built stadiums have been done for under a billion dollars... There's plenty of examples in this thread alone. Do a bit of research beforehand next time.

Even if they go with the $200 million plan, which I believe they will, like I said before, we're going to be going through a similar discussion 10-15 years down the road. At that point, costs for a new stadium will have gotten bigger than they are now...

I'm not saying that RWS can't be renovated and the Bills NEED a new stadium. RWS certainly can be renovated and will likley be viable for the next decade or so with said renovations. I'm just saying, there comes a point where you stop pouring $200 million into a a 40+ year old stadium and build something that's gonna last 30+ years and solidifies the team's foothold in the city for the forseeable future.

-Bill

[DraftBoy]

Have you ever been to the Ralph?

There are only maybe 2 bars within walking distance, and there's no public transit anywhere remotely nearby. It's literally in the middle of nowhere.

But, because of that, parking isn't really a hassle. Official stadium lots are cheaper than other cities, and there are plenty of private lots (often just people who let you park on their lawns) nearby.

And this, of course, leads to a ton of tailgating.

If the stadium were moved downtown, sure, the bars and restaurants would benefit, but the parking situation would become a nightmare and it would kill the tailgating.

No and I dont care one bit about parking or tailgaiting. I care about the city earning as much money as possible. Now I would be interested in seeing what the economic impact study would say about the amount on average being spent on a tailgate v. how much somebody would spend at a bar or restuarant before or after the game.

[better days]

Population Density isn't the point, the stadium shouldn't be designed for what's most conveneint to where people live. It should be designed for where it can make the larget economic impact for the city and county.

How many bars, stores, and restaurants are within walking distance of the Ralph for before or after a game? Let's say within one mile for purposes of the question. Also what mass transit options exist for people to get to the Ralph who don't want to deal with the hassel that is parking?

So you want to eliminate the best tailgating in the NFL & force people to go to bars before a game? STUPID.

People that live out of town can stay downtown if they want, enjoy downtown & be at the Stadium in about 30 min for the best tailgate in the NFL.

People in Tampa don't want to go to St. Pete to watch the Rays which is like going from Cheektowaga to West Seneca.

[OpIv37]

No and I dont care one bit about parking or tailgaiting. I care about the city earning as much money as possible. Now I would be interested in seeing what the economic impact study would say about the amount on average being spent on a tailgate v. how much somebody would spend at a bar or restuarant before or after the game.

That would be interesting, but a lot of data suggests that the economic benefit of a new sports arena/stadium rarely has as big an impact as is estimated.

Of course, this is because a lot of stadiums are built in "transitional" neighborhoods, like the new Nationals Park, where there is literally nothing there. I would imagine that if a new stadium for the Bills (or any other team, for that matter) was built within walking distance of existing retail places, the effect would be much greater.

[DraftBoy]

So you want to eliminate the best tailgating in the NFL & force people to go to bars before a game? STUPID.

People that live out of town can stay downtown if they want, enjoy downtown & be at the Stadium in about 30 min for the best tailgate in the NFL.

People in Tampa don't want to go to St. Pete to watch the Rays which is like going from Cheektowaga to West Seneca.

Tailgating is a college thing, I dont really care about tailgating when it comes to the NFL.

Id be fine with eliminating it completely. What happens in Tampa has little bearing on this discussion since one is apathetic fan base compared to a passionate one.

[DraftBoy]

That would be interesting, but a lot of data suggests that the economic benefit of a new sports arena/stadium rarely has as big an impact as is estimated.

Of course, this is because a lot of stadiums are built in "transitional" neighborhoods, like the new Nationals Park, where there is literally nothing there. I would imagine that if a new stadium for the Bills (or any other team, for that matter) was built within walking distance of existing retail places, the effect would be much greater.

Which is to my point, and something I'd be interested to read.

[OpIv37]

No and I dont care one bit about parking or tailgaiting. I care about the city earning as much money as possible. Now I would be interested in seeing what the economic impact study would say about the amount on average being spent on a tailgate v. how much somebody would spend at a bar or restuarant before or after the game.

oh, and one more thing: define "earning money." Who do you want to earn money? The reason I ask is because I firmly believe that one of the reasons the Bills still sell tickets despite a decade of suckage is because people like tailgating. If that tailgating were reduced or eliminated, that could REALLY hurt the ability to sell tickets in down years.

Of course, I don't have any objective data to back this up and someone would have to do a study to confirm or refute my assertion, but it's definitely something to consider when trying to compute the economic impact of a downtown stadium vs renovations to the Ralph or a new stadium in the 'burbs.

[DraftBoy]

oh, and one more thing: define "earning money." Who do you want to earn money? The reason I ask is because I firmly believe that one of the reasons the Bills still sell tickets despite a decade of suckage is because people like tailgating. If that tailgating were reduced or eliminated, that could REALLY hurt the ability to sell tickets in down years.

Of course, I don't have any objective data to back this up and someone would have to do a study to confirm or refute my assertion, but it's definitely something to consider when trying to compute the economic impact of a downtown stadium vs renovations to the Ralph or a new stadium in the 'burbs.

Definitely something to consider and study, not sure I buy it. We did have a string of games that failed to sell out during our suckage just a few years back despite the tailgating as well.

[justasportsfan]

Tailgating is a college thing, I dont really care about tailgating when it comes to the NFL.



it may be a college thing but in buffalo it's part of buffalo bills football. People look forward to tailgating as much as the game itself. If moving takes away the tailgating experience, I'm against moving then.

[better days]

Tailgating is a college thing, I dont really care about tailgating when it comes to the NFL.

Id be fine with eliminating it completely. What happens in Tampa has little bearing on this discussion since one is apathetic fan base compared to a passionate one.

A College thing? MOST NFL Cities have good tailgating. Buffalo just happens to have the best.

The fact the Bills have a passionate fan base is all the more reason to keep it out of downtown. Fans that go to Buffalo from out of town to watch the game are not bothered to drive out to OP to watch the game.

I could care less if the City of Buffalo does not make a penny on the Bills myself. I want the stadium to be located where it will best serve the fans & team. If the Stadium is ever moved, it should be moved between Buffalo & Rochester IMO. If the Stadium were closer to Rochester, the Suites would be easier to sell.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Population Density isn't the point, the stadium shouldn't be designed for what's most conveneint to where people live. It should be designed for where it can make the larget economic impact for the city and county.

How many bars, stores, and restaurants are within walking distance of the Ralph for before or after a game? Let's say within one mile for purposes of the question. Also what mass transit options exist for people to get to the Ralph who don't want to deal with the hassel that is parking?
Who cares about stores, bars and restaurants? People are ready to go home and sleep after 5 hours if tailgating and 3 hours of game, not looking for purses at Gucci.

[PromoTheRobot]

Why can't a renovation of RWS include new commercial development with bars and restaurants, much like Patriot Place in Foxboro?

PTR

[justasportsfan]

Why can't a renovation of RWS include new commercial development with bars and restaurants, much like Patriot Place in Foxboro?

PTR

buffalo is a blue collar town.
Cheaper beer /alcohol at the trunk of your car is better . Kenny the pinto guy tailgating experience is what buffalo is all about. WNY doesn't get a whole lot of tropical weather. When we do we need to party outdoor.

[billsfootball1027]

A College thing? MOST NFL Cities have good tailgating. Buffalo just happens to have the best.

The fact the Bills have a passionate fan base is all the more reason to keep it out of downtown. Fans that go to Buffalo from out of town to watch the game are not bothered to drive out to OP to watch the game.

I could care less if the City of Buffalo does not make a penny on the Bills myself. I want the stadium to be located where it will best serve the fans & team. If the Stadium is ever moved, it should be moved between Buffalo & Rochester IMO. If the Stadium were closer to Rochester, the Suites would be easier to sell.

Quick question: Most parking lots in downtown Buffalo are STILL very open. What is the difference between tailgating at the Ralph and downtown Buffalo?? You still have enough parking downtown where you can grill, drink, throw a football, and blast music. Ive done and seen it done before Sabres playoff games. So its not impossible.

[better days]

Quick question: Most parking lots in downtown Buffalo are STILL very open. What is the difference between tailgating at the Ralph and downtown Buffalo?? You still have enough parking downtown where you can grill, drink, throw a football, and blast music. Ive done and seen it done before Sabres playoff games. So its not impossible.

I agree, tailgating could be accomodated Downtown, but the point is if the Stadium were to be moved, a location between Buffalo & Rochester would accomodate the greatest number of Bills fans with fans from Rochester & Canada not having to drive as far & being closer to Rochester & Canada, it would be easier to sell suites to the corporations located there.

[DraftBoy]

Who cares about stores, bars and restaurants? People are ready to go home and sleep after 5 hours if tailgating and 3 hours of game, not looking for purses at Gucci.
Well off the top of my head almost all of the government officials involved in the process would certainly care a heck of a lot.

[better days]

Well off the top of my head almost all of the government officials involved in the process would certainly care a heck of a lot.

NONSENSE. I doubt ANY COUNTY official would even want the Stadium to be located in the City of Buffalo, let alone push for that. As long as it is in Erie County, it will have plenty of support from local officials.

[DraftBoy]

NONSENSE. I doubt ANY COUNTY official would even want the Stadium to be located in the City of Buffalo, let alone push for that. As long as it is in Erie County, it will have plenty of support from local officials.

I dont think you quite understood the point of my comment based on your response.

[better days]

I dont think you quite understood the point of my comment based on your response.

OK, clarify your point.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Tailgating is a college thing, I dont really care about tailgating when it comes to the NFL.

Id be fine with eliminating it completely. What happens in Tampa has little bearing on this discussion since one is apathetic fan base compared to a passionate one.
WHAT????? VERY LAME.

[DraftBoy]

OK, clarify your point.

That local government officials care more for the increased tax revenues that would come from people in drinking in bars and restaurants rather than out of the case of beer they bought at the supermaket earlier that day.

Or...

The land downtown is more prime therefor probably worth more in terms of a lease.

Or...

With a stadium downtown it could foster even more economic development to the area thus bringing in jobs and more revenues.

Really the point has many different potential levels, but it summed up to point out that many, many people care about the bars, restaurants, and stores.

A downtown stadium, it could be argue (assuming an economic impact study can prove it) is worth more in economic development for the city of Buffalo than the loss of tailgate would ever cost the Bills or its fan base. Of course by admissions that's taking a lot for granted and assuming an awful lot about the utopian way things for the most part would work.

[better days]

That local government officials care more for the increased tax revenues that would come from people in drinking in bars and restaurants rather than out of the case of beer they bought at the supermaket earlier that day.

Or...

The land downtown is more prime therefor probably worth more in terms of a lease.

Or...

With a stadium downtown it could foster even more economic development to the area thus bringing in jobs and more revenues.

Really the point has many different potential levels, but it summed up to point out that many, many people care about the bars, restaurants, and stores.

A downtown stadium, it could be argue (assuming an economic impact study can prove it) is worth more in economic development for the city of Buffalo than the loss of tailgate would ever cost the Bills or its fan base. Of course by admissions that's taking a lot for granted and assuming an awful lot about the utopian way things for the most part would work.

Well, as I said I doubt any County Executive cares about the City of Buffalo. They care about the entire County. Where the most people with the most money live.

[THATHURMANATOR]

DB has good points if we were talking about a normal larger city.

Buffalo isn't that way. The larger, and richer population lives in the burbs or the outlying areas of the city like North and South Buffalo.

The downtown area is starting to gain population but just isnt there yet.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I totally disagree that tailgaiting is a College thing. Why would it be? Tailgaiting at the Ralph is great and probably similar to college.

Tailgaiting for a Bills game is one of my favorite things in the world.

[OpIv37]

Because it's not a "band-aid" as you call it. Do you buy a new car because your old one needs tires? A new stadium is $1B. Then you have to demolish RWS and you are left with a big hole in the ground. This is the best plan.

PTR

Do I buy a new car cuz my old one needs tires? That depends. Is my old car a decently equipped 5 year old Honda Accord, or is it a 1995 Dodge Neon?

If it's the Accord, I buy the tires. If it's the Neon, I have to think hard about whether or not I really want to spend $500 on tires for a car that might be worth $1000 and is probably more trouble than it's worth at this point anyway.

And if I do decide to buy a new car, I don't have to get a Bentley just because Jerry Jones has one. A loaded Accord will be a significant improvement over what I have and last me far into the future (translation for the analogy-impaired: new stadiums don't cost $1b just because that's what Jerry Jones wanted to spend.)

[DraftBoy]

Well, as I said I doubt any County Executive cares about the City of Buffalo. They care about the entire County. Where the most people with the most money live.

Which is great but what's good for the City of Buffalo is also good for the County of Erie.

[DraftBoy]

DB has good points if we were talking about a normal larger city.

Buffalo isn't that way. The larger, and richer population lives in the burbs or the outlying areas of the city like North and South Buffalo.

The downtown area is starting to gain population but just isnt there yet.

That's the exact way Atlanta and many other major cities are. It all has to do with the idea of "white flight".

Again this has little to do with population density.

[OpIv37]

Which is great but what's good for the City of Buffalo is also good for the County of Erie.

Yeah, but the poor people who live in the city don't make big donations to political campaigns. The rich people who live in the suburbs do.

[DraftBoy]

I totally disagree that tailgaiting is a College thing. Why would it be? Tailgaiting at the Ralph is great and probably similar to college.

Tailgaiting for a Bills game is one of my favorite things in the world.

Come down here on a Saturday and Ill show you college tailgating. I can't comment on the Ralph tailgating, so I dont know if it even compares to the scene at Ole Miss, UGA, or Florida.

I just know in general I dont care about tailgating unless Im at a college game.

[DraftBoy]

Yeah, but the poor people who live in the city don't make big donations to political campaigns. The rich people who live in the suburbs do.

True.

[better days]

Come down here on a Saturday and Ill show you college tailgating. I can't comment on the Ralph tailgating, so I dont know if it even compares to the scene at Ole Miss, UGA, or Florida.

I just know in general I dont care about tailgating unless Im at a college game.

In the same respect, I doubt any Bills fan that tailgates at the Ralph cares about the tailgating at the Southern Colleges you named.

[DraftBoy]

In the same respect, I doubt any Bills fan that tailgates at the Ralph cares about the tailgating at the Southern Colleges you named.

Relevance?

[OpIv37]

In the same respect, I doubt any Bills fan that tailgates at the Ralph cares about the tailgating at the Southern Colleges you named.

A party's a party. I have no strong feelings either way about any of the schools DB mentioned, and I certainly wouldn't go out of my way specifically to see a game there. But if I found myself nearby on game day for some other reason, I'd definitely go check it out.

[better days]

Relevance?

You tell me. Explain the relevence of College tailgating to the Buffalo Bills. Tailgating is a HUGE part of the Bills game day experience & has been since the day Rich Stadium opened.

Any Bills fan that has never been to the Ralph, should try to get there at least once for that great experience.

[better days]

A party's a party. I have no strong feelings either way about any of the schools DB mentioned, and I certainly wouldn't go out of my way specifically to see a game there. But if I found myself nearby on game day for some other reason, I'd definitely go check it out.

I'm a Gator fan myself & I'm not knocking College tailgates, I'm just saying the tailgate at the Ralph is every bit the Party a College tailgate is.

A party can be as fun as you want it to be or as dull.

[OpIv37]

You tell me. Explain the relevence of College tailgating to the Buffalo Bills. Tailgating is a HUGE part of the Bills game day experience & has been since the day Rich Stadium opened.

Any Bills fan that has never been to the Ralph, should try to get there at least once for that great experience.

This is very true. I took my friend- who's a Skins fan and has lived his whole life in the DC area- to the Sat night game against the Broncos a few years back. When I told him about the tailgating in Buffalo, he didn't believe me until he saw it himself. He still tells people stories about it.

[DraftBoy]

You tell me. Explain the relevence of College tailgating to the Buffalo Bills. Tailgating is a HUGE part of the Bills game day experience & has been since the day Rich Stadium opened.

Any Bills fan that has never been to the Ralph, should try to get there at least once for that great experience.

You want me to explain the relevance of your post to myself?

I didn't make the comparison, you did. I simply said having never been to Buffalo I can't compare to a few of the tailgates Ive been to multiple times.

I would love to make it up but I have other commitments that don't allow for it. That being said I don't for one second believe that what happens outside RWS is all that comparable to The Grove at Ole Miss. That's not a shot at Bills fan or RWS but if you have never been to the Grove on gameday then it should be on your bucket list. One of the truly greatest experience in all of football that transcends the line between college and pros.

[better days]

Tailgating is a college thing, I dont really care about tailgating when it comes to the NFL.

Id be fine with eliminating it completely. What happens in Tampa has little bearing on this discussion since one is apathetic fan base compared to a passionate one.

OK how is this for relevence to my post. You said Tailgating is a College thing & you did not care about tailgating in the NFL.

[Blacksheep71]

There is no tailgaiting if the new owner ups and leaves because he's got a short term lease with an elderly stadium which his new partners will happily pay to get out of (like Bennett did when moving the Superonics) and the cost of a new replacement stadium has increased by another 30%

[Ed]

I think tailgating is a huge aspect of the Bills game day experience and it shouldn't be compromised. It's the only thing that still makes games a lot of fun even when the Bills are bad. And the fact that it makes it much more of a college atmosphere is one of the most appealing and unique things about NFL football in Buffalo. With all of these other stadiums moving towards the high priced corporate experience, the college atmosphere is something the Bills should be proud of and continue to hold onto.

I moved to Atlanta after college and got a part time job working security at the Georgia Dome for Falcons games. The stadium is right downtown and the tailgating sucked because of a lack of parking. And to park anywhere near the stadium cost $100-200 per vehicle. I also think playing in a dome provided a really stale and boring environment. Of the stadiums I've been to, I think the Falcons who play in a dome downtown have by far the lamest game day experience.

[better days]

There is no tailgaiting if the new owner ups and leaves because he's got a short term lease with an elderly stadium which his new partners will happily pay to get out of (like Bennett did when moving the Superonics) and the cost of a new replacement stadium has increased by another 30%

There will be much more expense to move the team than a lease. In any event, I am sure the next owners of the Bills will WANT to keep the team in Buffalo.

[better days]

You want me to explain the relevance of your post to myself?

I didn't make the comparison, you did. I simply said having never been to Buffalo I can't compare to a few of the tailgates Ive been to multiple times.

I would love to make it up but I have other commitments that don't allow for it. That being said I don't for one second believe that what happens outside RWS is all that comparable to The Grove at Ole Miss. That's not a shot at Bills fan or RWS but if you have never been to the Grove on gameday then it should be on your bucket list. One of the truly greatest experience in all of football that transcends the line between college and pros.

Well, as a Bills fan, you should have going to opening day in Buffalo at the Ralph as the first item on your Bucket list.

The tailgate at the Ralph, transcends the line between College & Pros.

[Typ0]

The biggest problem with RW is it's in the wrong place. Honestly, if they can get RW to deplete the value of the team by locking it into a long term lease we should all be very excited about that!

[THATHURMANATOR]

Who gives a **** about Ole Miss????

[bf1]

I love the Ralph.