Well that looked familiar...Defense

[DraftBoy]

Anybody else see an old and familiar freind in the Cover 2? You didn't? Well allow me to reacquaint you, is the scheme with the big ***** voids in it, that doesn't blitz, and is basically toast if your front four are unable to bring pressure. Those Jets receivers running free after there cuts, that's a design aspect of this lovely defense. If you can't get to the QB in about 3-4 seconds and you face a QB who can make at least semi smart decision in relatively quick time you can be beaten time and time again like we were today.

No less than a decade ago people railed against this system, they hated it then, and we should all hate it now. However this the scheme we will keep because this who our DC is. A 43 base Cover 2 philosophy bend but don't break coach. If our front four don't get better at getting to the QB its going to be a VERY long season.

[BuffaloWingEater]

the stache better have a different game plan for next week because there was no plan this week. if there was a plan, i wouldn't admit to that.

[OpIv37]

Here's the bigger problem: on paper, we have the front 4 to make it work. In reality, it didn't turn out that way- maybe the Jets' OL is better than advertised, maybe our DL is worse than advertised or maybe it was just a bad day. Regardless, our coaches didn't adjust. They kept doing the same thing that wasn't working.

And hell, as bad as the DB's were in coverage, why didn't they blitz more? It's not like the DBs were actually covering anyone. At least then we'd have a shot at making a play.

[DraftBoy]

Here's the bigger problem: on paper, we have the front 4 to make it work. In reality, it didn't turn out that way- maybe the Jets' OL is better than advertised, maybe our DL is worse than advertised or maybe it was just a bad day. Regardless, our coaches didn't adjust. They kept doing the same thing that wasn't working.

And hell, as bad as the DB's were in coverage, why didn't they blitz more? It's not like the DBs were actually covering anyone. At least then we'd have a shot at making a play.

You are never going to see the current defense blitz a ton or even consistently.

[Mr. Pink]

The Steelers rode this defense to a Dynasty.

It can work.

And it kept us in plenty of games we had no business being in while Jauron was here.

[tomz]

Here's the bigger problem: on paper, we have the front 4 to make it work. In reality, it didn't turn out that way- maybe the Jets' OL is better than advertised, maybe our DL is worse than advertised or maybe it was just a bad day. Regardless, our coaches didn't adjust. They kept doing the same thing that wasn't working.

And hell, as bad as the DB's were in coverage, why didn't they blitz more? It's not like the DBs were actually covering anyone. At least then we'd have a shot at making a play.


Agreed on the blitzing. They needed to keep the Jets from dictating who they could double up on.

[OpIv37]

You are never going to see the current defense blitz a ton or even consistently.

Well they should have changed something. But they are married to their systems and stick with them for the sake of sticking with them.m winning be damned!

[cookie G]

Gilmore was getting beat repeatedly by a single move.

mcLovin is allergic to the color green, I think.

Aaron Williams is..well, Aaron Williams.

We need to draft more DB's.

[kingJofNYC]

They would've probably dropped 70 on us if we blitzed more, we couldn't cover with 7. You think these corners can hold their own one on one outside, **** is a recipe disaster.

[OpIv37]

Gilmore was getting beat repeatedly by a single move.

mcLovin is allergic to the color green, I think.

Aaron Williams is..well, Aaron Williams.

We need to draft more DB's.

We drafted Byrd in the 2nd round 3 years ago, Williams in the 2nd last year, Gilmore in the 1st this year and McKelvin in the first a few years back. Plus some lower round guys. We don't need to draft more. We need to draft better.

[BuffaloWingEater]

i want the stache on the sidelines. what a pussy by being in the booth.

[YardRat]

The Steelers rode this defense to a Dynasty.

It can work.

And it kept us in plenty of games we had no business being in while Jauron was here.

That was thirty-plus years ago, when it was new and cutting edge.

This is what happens when you hire somebody to run the defense that hasn't done it except for 1 season almost 20 years ago. The defense may still be able to work, but you need a guy at the helm that knows how to use against today's offenses.

[cookie G]

We drafted Byrd in the 2nd round 3 years ago, Williams in the 2nd last year, Gilmore in the 1st this year and McKelvin in the first a few years back. Plus some lower round guys. We don't need to draft more. We need to draft better.

Sorry, they're just rebuilding the site. I couldn't find my sarcasm tags.

But to the original question in the thread....the last Cover 2 this team had finished 2nd in the league against the pass overall, and was in the top 5 in most pass D categories.

That wasn't good enough for most people though.

[kingJofNYC]

Our linebackers can't cover at all. Watching Lee and Bowman play gets my blood boiling. What a colossal **** up by the front office over the last decade. Complete disaster.

[Mr. Pink]

That was thirty-plus years ago, when it was new and cutting edge.

This is what happens when you hire somebody to run the defense that hasn't done it except for 1 season almost 20 years ago. The defense may still be able to work, but you need a guy at the helm that knows how to use against today's offenses.

The Bears ran it last year and were middle of the pack overall. 14th in points allowed, 17th in yards allowed and 5th in turnovers forced. All with only having 33 sacks.

The scheme itself can still work if the players execute.

[OpIv37]

Sorry, they're just rebuilding the site. I couldn't find my sarcasm tags.

But to the original question in the thread....the last Cover 2 this team had finished 2nd in the league against the pass overall, and was in the top 5 in most pass D categories.

That wasn't good enough for most people though.
That was a 4-3 D team but not a cover-2 team. It was a LeBeau/Gregg Williams 46 D and it featured a LOT of blitzing, which is the opposite philosophy of the C2.

The last C2 teams we had were Jauron's disasters.

[Mr. Pink]

That was a 4-3 D team but not a cover-2 team. It was a LeBeau/Gregg Williams 46 D and it featured a LOT of blitzing, which is the opposite philosophy of the C2.

The last C2 teams we had were Jauron's disasters.

2009 Defense 19th in yards, 16th in points.

2008 Defense 14th in yards, 14th in points

2007 Defense 31st in yards, 18th in points

2006 Defense 18th in yards, 10th in points

While the 31st in yards is bad, all that really matters is points allowed...Middle of the pack or better is what this team was on D in Jaurons' years here...

Now this is a disaster

2010 Defense 24th in yards, 28th in points

2011 Defense 26th in yards, 30th in points

[cookie G]

That was a 4-3 D team but not a cover-2 team. It was a LeBeau/Gregg Williams 46 D and it featured a LOT of blitzing, which is the opposite philosophy of the C2.

The last C2 teams we had were Jauron's disasters.

No. That was 2009

pass yards allowed -2nd
completions allowed - 5th
completion % -3rd
YPA- 3rd
TD's allowed 2nd- (t)
INT's - 2nd
1st % - 3rd(t)
20+ yard plays -3rd (t)
40+ yard plays- 4th (t)
Opp. pass rating- 2nd

And no it wasn't because "everyone could run against us so they didn't have to pass", as everyone likes to say.

They had about as many opposing pass attempts that year as the Ravens, Pats, Bears and Chargers, and slightly more than the Jets

It wasn't the cover 2 or the secondary as the problem, it was an undersized front 7.

[Mr. Pink]

No. That was 2009

pass yards allowed -2nd
completions allowed - 5th
completion % -3rd
YPA- 3rd
TD's allowed 2nd- (t)
INT's - 2nd
1st % - 3rd(t)
20+ yard plays -3rd (t)
40+ yard plays- 4th (t)
Opp. pass rating- 2nd

And no it wasn't because "everyone could run against us so they didn't have to pass", as everyone likes to say.

They had about as many opposing pass attempts that year as the Ravens, Pats, Bears and Chargers, and slightly more than the Jets

It wasn't the cover 2 or the secondary as the problem, it was an undersized front 7.

It technically was because everyone could run which is why you see my post above covering total defense.

In 2009 were 31st in rush attempts against us and 30th in rush yards allowed and 30th in YPC allowed.

When your rush defense looks like that, your pass defense is gonna be skewed to be better HOWEVER what we were was a middle of the pack defense overall. And a middle of the pack defense that can force some turnovers is plenty good enough the way the NFL is setup these days.

[X-Era]

Anybody else see an old and familiar freind in the Cover 2? You didn't? Well allow me to reacquaint you, is the scheme with the big ***** voids in it, that doesn't blitz, and is basically toast if your front four are unable to bring pressure. Those Jets receivers running free after there cuts, that's a design aspect of this lovely defense. If you can't get to the QB in about 3-4 seconds and you face a QB who can make at least semi smart decision in relatively quick time you can be beaten time and time again like we were today.

No less than a decade ago people railed against this system, they hated it then, and we should all hate it now. However this the scheme we will keep because this who our DC is. A 43 base Cover 2 philosophy bend but don't break coach. If our front four don't get better at getting to the QB its going to be a VERY long season.
:clap:

The second I heard 4-3 I thought Jauron's Cover 2... Lot's of open throws to the short and intermediate routes and in the flat. And lot's of 3rd downs converted. The game had the feel unfortunately.

I feel anyone who thinks you don't need rock solid LB'ers and DB's is lost when watching this game.

Maybe I saw what I internally wanted to see but I think we have a clear need for a solid LB and #2 WR. Add a young challenger at QB to that mix too.

[X-Era]

Here's the bigger problem: on paper, we have the front 4 to make it work. In reality, it didn't turn out that way- maybe the Jets' OL is better than advertised, maybe our DL is worse than advertised or maybe it was just a bad day. Regardless, our coaches didn't adjust. They kept doing the same thing that wasn't working.

And hell, as bad as the DB's were in coverage, why didn't they blitz more? It's not like the DBs were actually covering anyone. At least then we'd have a shot at making a play.A backup RT who started only because the starter stunk and they knew it? I don't mean to out do you're negativity but really?

[Scumbag College]

Schematically the cover 2 is a viable defense if your front four can consistently get to the opposing QBs. I think the Bills were counting on this with bringing in Mario and Anderson with Kyle Williams and Dareus already there. The defense is going to live and die by the front four, and if they can't get to the QB then get ready for 30 and 40+ point performances from other teams this year. This defense is in flux.

[Mr. Pink]

Schematically the cover 2 is a viable defense if your front four can consistently get to the opposing QBs. I think the Bills were counting on this with bringing in Mario and Anderson with Kyle Williams and Dareus already there. The defense is going to live and die by the front four, and if they can't get to the QB then get ready for 30 and 40+ point performances from other teams this year. This defense is in flux.


This is simply untrue as well.

Were we consistently smacking around QBs under Jauron? Were we giving up 30-40 point performances weekly?

Hell the Bears last year had 33 sacks as a team and gave up 21.3 PPG which was 14th in the NFL.

[cookie G]

It technically was because everyone could run which is why you see my post above covering total defense.

In 2009 were 31st in rush attempts against us and 30th in rush yards allowed and 30th in YPC allowed.

When your rush defense looks like that, your pass defense is gonna be skewed to be better HOWEVER what we were was a middle of the pack defense overall. And a middle of the pack defense that can force some turnovers is plenty good enough the way the NFL is setup these days.

When you count on your secondary to cheat up for run support, you have problems on your front 7.

And they did.

You can fix one aspect without ruining another.

[kingJofNYC]

Fellas, it's not even worth discussing at this point. Our scheme for the last three years is pressure zero cover no one. We care too much about these ****ing losers.

[Mr. Pink]

More comparison when we were 2nd overall against the pass in 2009, we had 31 sacks.

We allowed 20.4 PPG.

The scheme itself doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna give up 30-40 PPG weekly just because you don't get pressure up front.

[alohabillsfan]

I canx my NFL ticket at half time, **** the Bills, I will not follow this pathetic franchise until they prove they deserve it, Peace out!

[DraftBoy]

Sorry, they're just rebuilding the site. I couldn't find my sarcasm tags.

But to the original question in the thread....the last Cover 2 this team had finished 2nd in the league against the pass overall, and was in the top 5 in most pass D categories.

That wasn't good enough for most people though.

Well put and as I (and others) said back then, the solution wasn't to go to a 34 it was to simply bring in a coach who could become more unpredictable and aggressive (i.e. NYG 43 look).

[Mr. Pink]

Cleveland Browns defense last year with Dick Jauron at the helm.

10th in yard allowed, 5th in points allowed.

The whole Cover 2 defense being a problem is complete fallacy.

[JoeMama]

Tom Clements, Perry Fewell, and Kevin Gilbride seem to be doing fine in their post-Buffalo careers as well.

Funny how these guys are idiots until they leave Buffalo.

Those three have SB rings now too.

[imbondz]

more of a problem was our offense giving away 21 points immediately, and our special teams giving away 7.

[Mouldsie]

We should be running a wide-9 scheme like the Eagles. Is there someone who studied under Jim Johnson available?

[DraftBoy]

We should be running a wide-9 scheme like the Eagles. Is there someone who studied under Jim Johnson available?

You don't need a Johnson disciple to run the Wide 9 its not that complicated a scheme, the issue is that you must have great LB's and we don't.

[Turf]

Who coaches the secondary? Why is he still here?
Hey stach, the preseason ended last week, how about installing a ****ING GAME PLAN!!!
The stach needs to get out of the booth and grab people by the collar and shake them.

[TacklingDummy]

Tom Clements, Perry Fewell, and Kevin Gilbride seem to be doing fine in their post-Buffalo careers as well.

Funny how these guys are idiots until they leave Buffalo.

Those three have SB rings now too. it's always been the talent on the field. I blame whoever has been GM he past 12 years.

It's not hard to see that teams that consistently win are built around their QB.

[kingJofNYC]

We should be running a wide-9 scheme like the Eagles. Is there someone who studied under Jim Johnson available?

When Bates was in Miami with Wanny they ran it all the time. Remember seeing the Dolphins line splits and they were huge.

[Ingtar33]

Terrible linebackers and poor DBs. Football is an 11 man sport.

[cookie G]

Well put and as I (and others) said back then, the solution wasn't to go to a 34 it was to simply bring in a coach who could become more unpredictable and aggressive (i.e. NYG 43 look).

Think we can get that guy from the Giants to come back? :)

I don't have any problem with aggression and/or unpredictability.

Getting pressure yesterday wasn't necessarily the problem, because Sanchez was simply planting a foot and throwing.

But dammit, when you have 3 CB's on the field who were drafted 10, 11, and 34 respectively and can't cover a receiver for 2 seconds.

As you are in trouble when your D line lets a QB get 4 seconds to throw, you are in just as much trouble when your cb's can't stay with someone for 2 seconds. Otherwise, I have no idea why you would waste a high draft choice on them.

As Coach said in his article last night, they weren't just getting beat underneath, they were getting beat deep.

As far as blitzing, Buddy Ryan said it long ago, it was the CB's that made the 46 actually work. His reasoning was simple...if the CB's can't stay with someone for a few seconds, it doesn't matter how much blitzing you actually do.

That was just an epic failure by the D yesterday, and there are no excuses for any of them. Wanny likes to preach winning the individual match ups and no one was winning them at any level.

Frankly, he should have had them all on the field after the game running wind sprints.

Again!!!

[coastal]

Tom Clements, Perry Fewell, and Kevin Gilbride seem to be doing fine in their post-Buffalo careers as well.

Funny how these guys are idiots until they leave Buffalo.

Those three have SB rings now too.

Goes to the larger point I've been getting at.

The organization is fubar.

you cant just plug a new player in and poof... we go to the Super Bowl.

its take an organziation with strong leadership to be more than just financially successful.

and until that dynamic changes... little to nothing on the field will.

[coastal]

Think we can get that guy from the Giants to come back? :)

I don't have any problem with aggression and/or unpredictability.

Getting pressure yesterday wasn't necessarily the problem, because Sanchez was simply planting a foot and throwing.

But dammit, when you have 3 CB's on the field who were drafted 10, 11, and 34 respectively and can't cover a receiver for 2 seconds.

As you are in trouble when your D line lets a QB get 4 seconds to throw, you are in just as much trouble when your cb's can't stay with someone for 2 seconds. Otherwise, I have no idea why you would waste a high draft choice on them.

As Coach said in his article last night, they weren't just getting beat underneath, they were getting beat deep.

As far as blitzing, Buddy Ryan said it long ago, it was the CB's that made the 46 actually work. His reasoning was simple...if the CB's can't stay with someone for a few seconds, it doesn't matter how much blitzing you actually do.

That was just an epic failure by the D yesterday, and there are no excuses for any of them. Wanny likes to preach winning the individual match ups and no one was winning them at any level.

Frankly, he should have had them all on the field after the game running wind sprints.

Again!!!
that would take strong leadership...

and we dont have it...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AEXS8TBd6ug" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[gebobs]

i want the stache on the sidelines. what a pussy by being in the booth.
I would prefer it if he was in the booth doing commentary for the network.

[JoeMama]

Goes to the larger point I've been getting at.

The organization is fubar.

you cant just plug a new player in and poof... we go to the Super Bowl.

its take an organziation with strong leadership to be more than just financially successful.

and until that dynamic changes... little to nothing on the field will.

Yeah but how do you build a team with a winning mindset when all the team knows is losing?

That's the problem we face.

There's no culture of winning in Buffalo anymore. I'm happy we're at least attempting to manufacture a winning atmosphere by throwing money at the problem.

But clearly it didn't help us in week one.

As somebody who hasn't seen this team make the playoffs since I was a teenager, I have no idea what it's going to take to make them a playoff caliber team again.

It's like a little black cloud follows this team around until everyone's aspirations completely wither and die.

[kishoph]

Gilmore was getting beat repeatedly by a single move.

mcLovin is allergic to the color green, I think.

Aaron Williams is..well, Aaron Williams.

We need to draft more DB's.

While the corners did not have a great game, they are young (bad excuse) and they will get better, hopefully soon. The safeties on the other hand have played horrible, Wilson has never been the strongest in coverage, but other parts of his game are valuable. Jairus Byrd is a different story, he flat out stinks, his coverage skills are bad and his tackling has become a liability. Byrd is always a step or two late, I don't know if it's his reaction time or his positioning, but something needs to be worked on if he's gonna remain the starter. I really don't get critical of players much, unless I really think they deserve it, Byrd has been getting by on a rookie season where everything bounced his way. One of my complaints about Gailey is, he seems reluctant to replace starters once they have been assigned that role.

As far as the D-Line goes, give the Jets some credit, Sanbow was getting rid of the ball fast and they played a lot of max protect, doubling K. Williams and Dareus and of course M. Williams was getting punched in the face (smh). One thing that pisses me off to no end and I don't know who's call it is, is the rotation BS, I am sick of seeing Dareus on the sideline. While watching Game Rewind yesterday (love it), there was a series where K. Williams and Dareus sat out a full series, except 1-2 plays. If these guys can't go 50 plays the 1st game of the season, something must be wrong with the conditioning. I can see sitting out a play, here or there to catch a breather, but to be on the sideline for 5 or more plays in a row is ridiculous. You'd have to fight someone like Bruce Smith to get him to come out of the game. This rotation, "situation substitution" stuff irks me, I hate seeing it.

[justasportsfan]

The Steelers rode this defense to a Dynasty.

It can work.

And it kept us in plenty of games we had no business being in while Jauron was here.


UH -no. Pitts blitzes a lot. Dick Lebeau's D makes Jauron D look stupid. Lebeaus D is superbowl proven. Dick defenses here were always bottom of the league. Check the stats. Jaurons D here couldn't stop the run if Ralph himself was running against it.

It's an insult to Lebeau even compare both Dicks. One Dick had balls the other castrated.

As for Wanny's D last sunday ..
The Bills elected not to throw many (if any) blitzes his way, which accounted for part of the problem. Buffalo’s defensive strategists no doubt are counting on being able to generate pass rush with their front four. it's the very same Wanny that I was worried about. CONSERVATIVE! Hate this conservative crap defensively. Makes the players soft.

[Mahdi]

We drafted Byrd in the 2nd round 3 years ago, Williams in the 2nd last year, Gilmore in the 1st this year and McKelvin in the first a few years back. Plus some lower round guys. We don't need to draft more. We need to draft better.

Williams and Gilmore have the skills to be great CBs but they need time. Year 3 is more indicative for CBs. Revis was unknown till year 3 I believe.

[DraftBoy]

Williams and Gilmore have the skills to be great CBs but they need time. Year 3 is more indicative for CBs. Revis was unknown till year 3 I believe.

Huh? Revis had 8 INT's and forced 10 total turnovers in his first two years alone. You're taking the WR rule and trying to apply it to CB's.

[MikeInRoch]

Williams and Gilmore have the skills to be great CBs but they need time. Year 3 is more indicative for CBs. Revis was unknown till year 3 I believe.

Yeah! Look at how long it took McKelvin to be great!

[Mr. Pink]

UH -no. Pitts blitzes a lot. Dick Lebeau's D makes Jauron D look stupid. Lebeaus D is superbowl proven. Dick defenses here were always bottom of the league. Check the stats. Jaurons D here couldn't stop the run if Ralph himself was running against it.

It's an insult to Lebeau even compare both Dicks. One Dick had balls the other castrated.

As for Wanny's D last sunday .. it's the very same Wanny that I was worried about. CONSERVATIVE! Hate this conservative crap defensively. Makes the players soft.

The defense Tony Dungy employed in Tampa Bay when he was the Head Coach and in Indy is the defense that was used when he played in Pittsburgh. The Steelers rode the Cover 2 to a dynasty. Fact.

[stuckincincy]

The defense Tony Dungy employed in Tampa Bay when he was the Head Coach and in Indy is the defense that was used when he played in Pittsburgh. The Steelers rode the Cover 2 to a dynasty. Fact.

With decent lbs, and blitzes now and then.

[kingJofNYC]

Yeah! Look at how long it took McKelvin to be great!

This from the same guy who gave me **** about Graham being inactive.

Bubububu too early to tell.

[Mr. Pink]

With decent lbs, and blitzes now and then.

Oddly enough Jack Ham and Jack Lambert both had more career INTs than Sacks.

Now you have to believe unofficial Steeler numbers on the sacks because sacks weren't an official stat back then though.

However, lets say that they're right. Why would those LBers have more INTs than sacks? Because they were in coverage more than they were getting after the QB!

If your LBers getting 2 to 3 sacks, again unofficial Steeler numbers, a season you're not even really blitzing now and then.

[GingerP]

For all the angst, the defense is going to play better. Williams, Williams and Dareus are all very talented guys up front. Anderson can at least rush the passer, even if he isn't an every-down player. The LBs and DBs may not be as good, but with three certified stars up front the defense is going to be a lot better than last week.

I don't have as much hope for the offense. Spiller is a dynamic talent, but I don't think he is a bell cow. They need another back to compliment his explosive talent, so get well Freddy.

Fitzpatrick is a mistake. He will go on good streaks, but in the end he is journeyman they overpaid. He isn't the answer. The WR, outside of Johnson all have questions. The TE is dependable but doesn't scare anyone down-field.

The defense will be there, though. They will be a lot better than they showed last week. They have to be.

[madness]

Jets kept an extra two in to chip a majority of the time. With only four working against seven you'd figure you should be able to lock down the other three. Our CB's need to get way more aggressive at the line, our safeties need to look like they actually belong out there and our LB's need to diagnose and commit before the play is actually over.

[gebobs]

Jairus Byrd is a different story, he flat out stinks, his coverage skills are bad and his tackling has become a liability.
He was a ball-hawk back in '09 and then the string of groin injuries took away his advantage. He hasn't been able to compensate for that and his play shows. A DB flash in the pan. Happens all the time. It's sad, but I don't think he'll ever get better.

[kishoph]

He was a ball-hawk back in '09 and then the string of groin injuries took away his advantage. He hasn't been able to compensate for that and his play shows. A DB flash in the pan. Happens all the time. It's sad, but I don't think he'll ever get better.

It seems more than physical, I don't know if he's not picking things up (keys) or his reaction time is bad, but he always seems a step or two late. I don't expect the kind of production he had his rookie year, he's in a different role now, but if he's gonna start he needs to contribute. The Safety positions have been a liability for a while now with the Bills, at least in coverage. Teams with good TE's tear us apart.

[gebobs]

It seems more than physical, I don't know if he's not picking things up (keys) or his reaction time is bad, but he always seems a step or two late. I don't expect the kind of production he had his rookie year, he's in a different role now, but if he's gonna start he needs to contribute. The Safety positions have been a liability for a while now with the Bills, at least in coverage. Teams with good TE's tear us apart.
It is certainly more than physical. My point is the physical advantage was all he has ever had. Now he needs to rely on savvy he's never had to use and possibly just doesn't have.

[YardRat]

They did play pretty well against the run, but that's the only bright spot. Of course, who needs to run the ball when you can play catch all day and put points on the board.

[YardRat]

The defense Tony Dungy employed in Tampa Bay when he was the Head Coach and in Indy is the defense that was used when he played in Pittsburgh. The Steelers rode the Cover 2 to a dynasty. Fact.

It's a fact, no doubt, but it was also over 30 years ago. Dungy had success with it in Tampa, and Indy but let's face it...the Colts weren't exactly known for their defense and the season they won a ring that side of the ball pretty much caught lightning in a bottle at the right time.

Offenses know how to attack and beat the Cover 2, especially the remedial version that Wannstadt apparently has settled on for this season.

[justasportsfan]

The defense Tony Dungy employed in Tampa Bay when he was the Head Coach and in Indy is the defense that was used when he played in Pittsburgh. The Steelers rode the Cover 2 to a dynasty. Fact.

I was talking about a different era. My bad for not stating that and I was also talking about DIck Jauron's version of the cover 2 has been nothing but average. His cover 2 here was bottom of the league. The D got better when Fewell took over and now Fewell has a sb ring and Dick doesn't have one.

[GingerP]

It's a fact, no doubt, but it was also over 30 years ago. Dungy had success with it in Tampa, and Indy but let's face it...the Colts weren't exactly known for their defense and the season they won a ring that side of the ball pretty much caught lightning in a bottle at the right time.

Offenses know how to attack and beat the Cover 2, especially the remedial version that Wannstadt apparently has settled on for this season.

There is a difference between cover-2 and the Tampa-2, which was Dungy's version. Chicago plays the Tampa-2, and has for years, successfully. Not many others use it as a base, although Dungy protoge' Leslie Frazier plays a more standard 4-3 in Minnesota.

The difference between a Tampa-2 and regular cover-2 alignment is the middle linebacker drops to the deep middle on passing downs, giving a cover-3 look. The DL also tries to penetrate aggressively to disrupt the offense, playing the run on the way to the QB. That is the Tampa-2 as run by Dungy & Lovie Smith, along with Chuck Noll & Bud Carson before them.

Most teams play a version of the cover-2 at least some of the time, when the situation dictates. It is a sound defensive alignment. Wanny is not playing the Tampa-2, he is more of a standard 4-3 guy. He likes to get pressure with his DL and not have to blitz much. He will play a lot of cover-2, but not much cover-3. A lot of zone defense, which fast LB that can run and get to the ball.

[Mouldsie]

You guys really dont know anything about Jairus Byrd or safety play do you?

[kishoph]

You guys really dont know anything about Jairus Byrd or safety play do you?


Maybe you could enlighten us.

[Stewie]

The Steelers rode this defense to a Dynasty.

It can work.

And it kept us in plenty of games we had no business being in while Jauron was here.

they ran it out of a 3-4, incorporated and perfected the zone blitz. That is a much different defensive strategy than a 4-3 cover2 philosophy.

[gebobs]

You guys really dont know anything about Jairus Byrd or safety play do you?Could be.

I know this:

He had a pretty nice 4-year stint at Oregon (including a redshirted year) as a cornerback and came out after his junior year.

He had VY-like marks in the Wonderlic.

He was drafted by the Bills above his position by the wonks.

He was converted by the Perry Fewell to safety after Whitner and Scott went down.

He had a remarkable rookie year where he basically played centerfield on passing downs and hawked picks in the last season the Bills defense had any respectability.

He was placed on IR in December for a groin injury and had three surgeries over the succeeding 9 months to repair it.

In the next few seasons under George Edwards, he has been called to support the run more and has responded by being third on the team in tackles in each of those years, an unfortunate distinction for a safety on any team and symptomatic of a Bills defense that fell to the bottom of the league.

It remains to be seen how he is used by Wanny, but it seems it's going to be along the same lines as Edwards.

[trapezeus]

cover 2 also needs a Safety who knocks the crap out of someone every couple weeks to keep receivers a little honest. look at the teams that use it successfully. their safety is a no nonsense hitter. and with the new rules, they are letting up which makes cover 2 a little less effective.

remember that old say, "its a game of inches." you have a guy running clean through his break vs a stutter or hesitation, its the world of difference.

The bills run defense looked ok. they do need to work that pass defense...and frankly i just don't see the talent there to do much unless they start blitzing lb's, which means there is a game we are going to get torched on screen.

[Mouldsie]

Poop.

I had a very long response but it got lost.

Jairus Byrd was noted by scouts, media, and experts coming out for his intelligence, instincts, and ball skills. Average athlete at least for a CB.
Wonderlic scores are confidential. Could not find any evidence for your claim. Doubt he's high profile enough to have an unofficial leak. Also would be surprised to hear it due to his rep. He seems to be smart and well read.

As far as being late to plays, he is responsible for playing very deep on the vast majority of plays at least last year. I wish that weren't the case but his role is to stay literally as the last line of defense.

Further, most people would say he is one of the better FS's in the NFL and the statisitcs show that as well.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/30/pff-top-101-of-2011-80-to-71/

I think he's generally one of the better S's in the NFL as well. George Wilson is more often a liability than he is.

[gebobs]

Poop.

I had a very long response but it got lost.

Jairus Byrd was noted by scouts, media, and experts coming out for his intelligence, instincts, and ball skills. Average athlete at least for a CB.

"Noted by scouts" you say. Well I should hope so!. He was the 7th ranked corner though not ranked in the top 50 overall as were the top 5. So he was at least ranked 52nd and probably closer to 60-65 overall. He was drafted 42nd. I said he was drafted above his ranking. Confirmed.


Wonderlic scores are confidential. Could not find any evidence for your claim. Doubt he's high profile enough to have an unofficial leak. Also would be surprised to hear it due to his rep. He seems to be smart and well read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jairus_Byrd#Pre-draft

There was a major leak in 2009 (http://www.ninersnation.com/2009/3/25/809421/2009-wonderlic-test-scores).


Further, most people would say he is one of the better FS's in the NFL and the statisitcs show that as well.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/30/pff-top-101-of-2011-80-to-71/

I think he's generally one of the better S's in the NFL as well. George Wilson is more often a liability than he is.
I agree that he has a reputation, but I thin that reputation is built mainly around a Byrd that has flown. Read this one (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1108644-br-nfl-1000-top-32-free-safeties/page/31). Ranked #3: "A ball hawk who flies around the field making plays, Byrd has been an impact player in the Bills secondary since being drafted in '09. His three interceptions and seven passes defensed in 2011 were a huge part of the team's defensive success.

He's not a ball hawk anymore. That's clear and I have to wonder what defensive success these idiots are seeing. I agree he is asked to be the last line of defense. He's going to stop the play after the receiver has the ball downfield or after the runner has broken through to the secondary. I think he's a fine tackler, but that doesn't help much when the opposition is converting 70% of third downs as the jets did.

Perhaps Byrd is the best of our backfield though that might say more about the rest of the corps and about the calamity that is the defensive philosophy of the Bills under Chan Gailey's staff. If s, I hope for his sake he gets to go to a real team as soon as possible.

[Mouldsie]

Wikipedia? Those numbers do not have references.

If Byrd leaves that leaves a huge hole in our secondary, and a pretty dismal outlook at safety. And he will excel if he goes to a team like, say, Baltimore.

- - - Updated - - -

The reason this team blows year after year is we chase good talent out the door.

[gebobs]

Wikipedia? Those numbers do not have references.
I provided another link that alluded to a major leak in '09 though the reference it has is dead.


If Byrd leaves that leaves a huge hole in our secondary, and a pretty dismal outlook at safety. And he will excel if he goes to a team like, say, Baltimore.
As I said, it may very well be that his diminished performance is due to the lousy staff here. His less than visible role coincides with the Bills hiring that POS Gailey.


The reason this team blows year after year is we chase good talent out the door.
And persist in hiring incompetents.

[YardRat]

There is a difference between cover-2 and the Tampa-2, which was Dungy's version. Chicago plays the Tampa-2, and has for years, successfully. Not many others use it as a base, although Dungy protoge' Leslie Frazier plays a more standard 4-3 in Minnesota.

The difference between a Tampa-2 and regular cover-2 alignment is the middle linebacker drops to the deep middle on passing downs, giving a cover-3 look. The DL also tries to penetrate aggressively to disrupt the offense, playing the run on the way to the QB. That is the Tampa-2 as run by Dungy & Lovie Smith, along with Chuck Noll & Bud Carson before them.

Most teams play a version of the cover-2 at least some of the time, when the situation dictates. It is a sound defensive alignment. Wanny is not playing the Tampa-2, he is more of a standard 4-3 guy. He likes to get pressure with his DL and not have to blitz much. He will play a lot of cover-2, but not much cover-3. A lot of zone defense, which fast LB that can run and get to the ball.

Carson dropped Lambert into middle coverage as part of his original conception of the Cover 2...Dungy really didn't do much differently.

[YardRat]

they ran it out of a 3-4, incorporated and perfected the zone blitz. That is a much different defensive strategy than a 4-3 cover2 philosophy.

No, they didn't. The Steel Curtain was a 43, Cover 2, zone-under defense in the '70's. Green, Greenwood, White and Holmes on the line with Lambert, Ham and Russell at 'backer for their first SB win. They continued with that set-up through the '70's.

[Mr. Pink]

they ran it out of a 3-4, incorporated and perfected the zone blitz. That is a much different defensive strategy than a 4-3 cover2 philosophy.

Wrong.

The Steelers switched to the 3-4 in 1982 because of players from the Steel Curtain era retiring.

Hell, the 3-4 as a base defensive scheme didn't even exist til 1974.

[kishoph]

Poop.


Further, most people would say he is one of the better FS's in the NFL and the statisitcs show that as well.


I think he's generally one of the better S's in the NFL as well. George Wilson is more often a liability than he is.



Well if the statistics show that it must be so. How about the stats that show the Bills gave up the 3rd highest amount of passing TD's in 2011 or the 4th highest amount of 40+ yd. pass plays. As far as some guy from the media that has probably never seen a Bills game from start to finish calling him a "beast" means nothing to someone that sits in the stadium and continuously sees him give up too much space and react late. His run support has been good, but I want more from the FS than run support. I may have been over critical calling him terrible, I'll give him average, but it's a position on the Bills that needs to improve, either by Byrd playing better or by being replaced.