Top Offensive Lines in 2003

[TigerJ]

While we're all waiting impatiently for training camp I thought you might like to see this tidbit. Allsports.com has done an evaluation of offensive lines in the NFL and come up with a list of the top ten. Buffalo makes the list at #10. That's the good news. The bad news: Miami is listed at #8. One comment I thought was interesting: ". . . this is a young and improving offensive line that could be the best in football a year from now."

http://www.allsports.com/cgi-bin/showstory.cgi?story_id=42629

[WG]

I think all the teams from 6 down having better lines than ours is a bunch of BS.

I'm tellin' ya, we're gonna have a top 5 OL this season. I think the big reason for the low ranking initially is that Sullivan is in his third season now, and Teague, while good, is not great.

I don't think there's gonna be a better tandem of Ts than MW and JJ this year. Brown is solid at G. Teague will improve as will Sullivan. It will bear out to be a top OL assuming we have no injuries.

He's right on when he says this could be the best OL in football a year from now, only I think that will happen this year sometime. Perhaps not the best, but a top 5, and the best that Bledsoe's every played behind.

[venis2k1]

I cant see Teague getting better, but i do agree with our line being one of the best...as for Miamis line, anything that has Cruddy Ruddy and Jamie Nails on it cant be that good.

[WG]

I'm giving Teague the benefit of the doubt in his second full season at C. I think he'll improve marginally, but I agree, not overall as a lineman in general. I've always maintained that we could do better at that position especially for the bucks we're paying him.

[mypoorfriendme]

how good was our rookie sobieski when he was at full health? good enough to start at center in a season or two? because yeah, i think center is the weak spot of our line and also think that teagues not going to be getting any better at his age

[Tatonka]

sobie definately has the size to be a serious load at center... i would love to see that work out.

and if sullivan bolts after this season (he's a FA).. pulluco (sp?) is supposed to be coming along very well too.

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

Miami's O-line is very underrated.. Just hard workers with no big name players other than maybe Jamie Nails who was a 4th round pick.. Considering Miami has never had a top 5 Pick since the NFL/AFL merger, they do very well in stock piling talent..

[Jan Reimers]

This analysis appears to be based mostly on past performance. The Bills O line - because of the relative inexperience of Williams, Jennings, and Sullivan - has more room to improve. Teague may also get somewhat better, as he gets more used to the center position and his linemates. If Ruben stops holding (or at least getting caught) so much, I think we could be in the top three.

[ryven]

The best thing of that report was that NE has no O-line there not even above average. So is this to say our defense will have fun in the back field.

[TedMock]

Hopefully Sobieski comes back 100%. As mentioned earlier, Teague is good but a bit overpaid. He does bring intelligence to the center position. Don't forget that JJ had a hard time calling the assignments when tested there. Either way, Sobieski may be better and cheaper in a year. Also, I love Ruben but I believe his salary hits that balloon phase next season....clump? eb? We'll be able to afford it next season but we still need to think about it.

[Doc]

I expect Teague to improve more than marginally, with a full season under his belt and NFL-quality coaching. The same goes for the other guys, Sullivan especially. Heck NONE of the younger guys (Jennings, Williams, Sully) have had a decent O-line coach since joining the Bills, and I can only surmise that Teague's development as a center was held back by Vinklarek.

As for Miami's O-line, it's aging rapidly. Ruddy, Perry, and Dixon are well into their 30's, Nails probably won't ever be the same after the Achilles injury, and Wade is a talented player who is too inconsistent.

[Doc]

BTW, Sullivan is a RFA after this season, since he's only accrued 3 seasons. The Bills can either tender him at the 3rd round pick level if he doesn't show improvement, or if he does, tender him at the 1st round or 1st and 3rd level and then go from there.

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by TigerJ
While we're all waiting impatiently for training camp I thought you might like to see this tidbit. Allsports.com has done an evaluation of offensive lines in the NFL and come up with a list of the top ten. Buffalo makes the list at #10. That's the good news. The bad news: Miami is listed at #8. One comment I thought was interesting: ". . . this is a young and improving offensive line that could be the best in football a year from now."

http://www.allsports.com/cgi-bin/showstory.cgi?story_id=42629

The fact that Miami line is above yours is not surprising since they boosted the league top rusher and gave up little sacks, plus the line is intact this year, and playing another year in this system, they should be rated high. For Wys to say that lines 6 and above are not better than the Bills is very homerous..Wys you need to check out other teams OL's first, if you only focus on the Bills team and not see other teams, you can get very tunnel visioned.
The Rams will be good this year also, just wait.

[clumping platelets]

Originally posted by Doc
BTW, Sullivan is a RFA after this season, since he's only accrued 3 seasons. The Bills can either tender him at the 3rd round pick level if he doesn't show improvement, or if he does, tender him at the 1st round or 1st and 3rd level and then go from there.


Sullivan was a 5th rd pick........I would like to see him sign an extension this season. I don't think TD would tender him with a 1st rd tender.

[WG]

Originally posted by Tatonka
sobie definately has the size to be a serious load at center... i would love to see that work out.

and if sullivan bolts after this season (he's a FA).. pulluco (sp?) is supposed to be coming along very well too.

Yeah, "supposed to be"!

Haven't you heard enough of that for a year or two now?

So was Denney! So was Robinson! So was Jenkins! The list goes on. What do you expect them to say? It appears that he's a bust?

We won't have a clue until he sets foot on the football field and goes up against Miami, the Jets, and Pats.

Everyone's always "ahead of schedule", "looking to be a real steal", "competing for the starting job", etc.

Here are some facts:

We didn't go for a DE b/c one of the ones we had is supposed to step up this year! Let's see if that happens.

Even though we don't have any experienced depth this year on the OL for backups besides Price, we're told Pucillo is ready. Let's see!

We're told that Posey will be what he was last year? Let's see!

We signed Reese to "bring a [variety] of things to our defensive backfield at S", Let's see!

Blah, blah, blah...

Meanwhile we drafted a whole bunch of positions that were on the tail end of our immediate needs list!

If TD's judgement on these is like it was w/ Farris, Robinson, Jenkins, Watson, Denney, and others, then it won't be good.

It's starting to look bleak for Jones doing anything other than retiring. Adams, I've been saying is average and on the road to washed up, but let's see if he can play much better than average this year. If not, and if a DE doesn't step up, could spell trouble again.

Meanwhile guys like Joseph, a real need, a gimme starter, and a worthwhile pick was passed over for a RB who may or may not end up playing in the future!

I like TD overall as a GM, but some of his and GW's pickups have been sketchy at best. Seems like we're always "shopping" in the "injured players/as-is" basket at Budget Bazaar instead of simply signing players or drafting players that we actually need now!

Our first four rounds of draft picks this year won't help us this season. That is of course unless Kelsay is even worth a 2nd rounder or above. Any second rounder, mid round no less, and one who was touted as a first rounder, should have no difficulty starting some games this season even w/ Adams' signing. Again, we'll see!

I like the Sobieski signing, but until he plays, I ain't countin' a thing. Same w/ Pucillo. I do find it difficult to believe that w/ stone legs back there in the pocket that Pucillo, last year's 7th rounder, would be anything but inadequate as a backup in only his second season and w/ no playing time under his belt. You simply cannot "learn how to play" by getting reps in TC or practice. I don't care what anyone says, those guys aren't playing at the level they are in games.

[WG]

BTW, if we had drafted Joseph, we wouldn't have had to sign Adams. We would have had quite a bit of cash left in addition to the large amt. we already have excess.

[WG]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN


The fact that Miami line is above yours is not surprising since they boosted the league top rusher and gave up little sacks, plus the line is intact this year, and playing another year in this system, they should be rated high. For Wys to say that lines 6 and above are not better than the Bills is very homerous..Wys you need to check out other teams OL's first, if you only focus on the Bills team and not see other teams, you can get very tunnel visioned.
The Rams will be good this year also, just wait.

homerous?

:scratch: LOL

;)

I'm not sure what you meant by 6 and above, but I meant 6, 7, 8, etc. Not 1-5. The 1-5 OLs are solid by far. But I see some serious shortcomings in the others.

As to the Fins' OL, let's get serious for a minute, Nails, a starter, is not great or even close. He's huge and that's about it. His skills as a G are nominal and his size makes up for the delta. The Fins have a good OL, but it's an injury away from fair just as ours is. The difference is that we have iron legs Bledsoe in there and you have some at least remotely mobile QBs.

Honestly, w/ all of our OL issues forthcoming, the best thing we can do is find a replacement who can move for Bledsoe. Bledsoe is only above average w/ an incredible OL. Since we haven't really prepared ourselves for the future here in that dept., it may not be the case w/ all the players "coming up" as indicated. Sullivan, Brown.

Teague, is average, but overpaid. If he improves this year, his second as a C, then fine. If not, then the team needs to begin thinking about replacing him and cutting him. That would be yet another need. Since we didn't draft any DTs or DEs this season, next year's draft is essentially spent on those in the first two rounds. So we can't exactly look to the draft.

Bledsoe himself has a lot to prove from last year. While most are happy w/ yardage and nice catches by the WRs, I'm only happy when the ball crosses the endzone! Since Drew lacks in that department, and since his only success came early on last season when teams did not know what to expect until Belichick showed the league how while Gilbride played into everyone's hands, he has to prove that he'll play more like he did in the first 6 games v. teams that had at best an 18th ranked passing D than he did in the last 10 games when he put up below average numbers which over the course of a season would translate to 16 TDs and 16 INTs and 20 or so total TOs.

Meanwhile, if we find a QB who can at least look like he's scrambling, then perhaps a weakness or two on the OL would be easier to overcome down the road.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
BTW, if we had drafted Joseph, we wouldn't have had to sign Adams.

Are you serious or being sarcastic ?

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


homerous?

:scratch: LOL

;)

I'm not sure what you meant by 6 and above, but I meant 6, 7, 8, etc. Not 1-5. The 1-5 OLs are solid by far. But I see some serious shortcomings in the others.

As to the Fins' OL, let's get serious for a minute, Nails, a starter, is not great or even close. He's huge and that's about it. His skills as a G are nominal and his size makes up for the delta. The Fins have a good OL, but it's an injury away from fair just as ours is. The difference is that we have iron legs Bledsoe in there and you have some at least remotely mobile QBs.

Honestly, w/ all of our OL issues forthcoming, the best thing we can do is find a replacement who can move for Bledsoe. Bledsoe is only above average w/ an incredible OL. Since we haven't really prepared ourselves for the future here in that dept., it may not be the case w/ all the players "coming up" as indicated. Sullivan, Brown.

Teague, is average, but overpaid. If he improves this year, his second as a C, then fine. If not, then the team needs to begin thinking about replacing him and cutting him. That would be yet another need. Since we didn't draft any DTs or DEs this season, next year's draft is essentially spent on those in the first two rounds. So we can't exactly look to the draft.

Bledsoe himself has a lot to prove from last year. While most are happy w/ yardage and nice catches by the WRs, I'm only happy when the ball crosses the endzone! Since Drew lacks in that department, and since his only success came early on last season when teams did not know what to expect until Belichick showed the league how while Gilbride played into everyone's hands, he has to prove that he'll play more like he did in the first 6 games v. teams that had at best an 18th ranked passing D than he did in the last 10 games when he put up below average numbers which over the course of a season would translate to 16 TDs and 16 INTs and 20 or so total TOs.

Meanwhile, if we find a QB who can at least look like he's scrambling, then perhaps a weakness or two on the OL would be easier to overcome down the road.

I see, you're looking at individuals, I was looking at the line as a whole..I know you have problems with Drew, for whatever reason, hey we'll take him. I know he's not mobile, but he's the kind of QB who gives you a chance each and every week. If your running game does take off this year, I think you will come to appreciate Drew. You can't be one dimensional or teams will figure it out..look at D. Marino..no running game and teams stopped us, even with all his passing yardage. People here will point to Travis 1400 yards, and don't understand that was a by product of the passing game, like Avery a couple of years ago behind Marino..The Miami OL has been evolving for a couple of years now, starting with Lamar Smith at running back, now I think they know how to rush block, thus getting credit for being a good OL..Nails played at a pro bowl level last year before injury...Seth, his replacement wasn't as good, but not bad for a 1st year Lineman..Who was terrible for us last year was Spriggs..If we have a injury this year to G or C, I'm not to worried, The great unknown for us is Tackle, that's were we're in the Twilight zone, but the rookie Wade Smith has looked good so far in mini camp, actually holding his own against J. Taylor, Ogunleye, and Jay Williams, that's saying a lot for a rookie. Now we have to see him in Pads, and see if he can still do what he did in shorts. Whitney, the other rookie is also showing a lot of promise, and we still have German, so we have seem to upgraded at backup, only TC time will prove one way or the other if we have. But overall I'll say our OL is a tad bit better than yours right now.

[WG]

Originally posted by justasportsfan


Are you serious or being sarcastic ?

What do you think? You know I don't fall all over myself trying to praise Drew like everyone else does.

Yeah, I think a high impact DE is better than an overrated QB who...

puts up 19 TOs in 7 losses,

leads the league in sacks for all intents and purposes after a

rookie on a first year team w/ absolutely no OL,

and averages only 1 TD/game.

Yes! Is that a reach?

[WG]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN


I see, you're looking at individuals, I was looking at the line as a whole..I know you have problems with Drew, for whatever reason, hey we'll take him. I know he's not mobile, but he's the kind of QB who gives you a chance each and every week. If your running game does take off this year, I think you will come to appreciate Drew. You can't be one dimensional or teams will figure it out..look at D. Marino..no running game and teams stopped us, even with all his passing yardage. People here will point to Travis 1400 yards, and don't understand that was a by product of the passing game, like Avery a couple of years ago behind Marino..The Miami OL has been evolving for a couple of years now, starting with Lamar Smith at running back, now I think they know how to rush block, thus getting credit for being a good OL..Nails played at a pro bowl level last year before injury...Seth, his replacement wasn't as good, but not bad for a 1st year Lineman..Who was terrible for us last year was Spriggs..If we have a injury this year to G or C, I'm not to worried, The great unknown for us is Tackle, that's were we're in the Twilight zone, but the rookie Wade Smith has looked good so far in mini camp, actually holding his own against J. Taylor, Ogunleye, and Jay Williams, that's saying a lot for a rookie. Now we have to see him in Pads, and see if he can still do what he did in shorts. Whitney, the other rookie is also showing a lot of promise, and we still have German, so we have seem to upgraded at backup, only TC time will prove one way or the other if we have. But overall I'll say our OL is a tad bit better than yours right now.

You're a product of a Pro-Bledsoe media there MD!!

Drew does not give anyone a "chance to win every week!" In fact, in games where he put up his biggest performances, we lost most of them. Meanwhile, in games where Henry ran well, we won most of them!

Drew has always been horrendous in the playoffs, always!

Martin and the D carried his carcass in N.E.

Here are his career numbers:

13/16
15/15
17/13
19/21
20/14
24/15
25/27
27/15
28/15
2/2

Only two of those seasons, perhaps 3, out of 10, indicate anything of the sort that you and others scream about. Those numbers are extremely average.

Drew is the master of putting up yards between the 20s and against scrub teams. But against playoff caliber competition he all but disappears. In fact, if he would simply disappear, that may be better. Otherwise he seems to have this uncanny knack for aiding opponents! Witness the K.C., Jets twice, Pats twice, Oakland, and Green Bay games last season!

Meanwhile, he gets praised for being able to (barely often and usually not as a result of his play) beat teams like Minnesota (6-10), Cincy (2-14), Houston (4-12), Chicago (4-12), and Detroit (3-13).

Let me ask you a question MD:

Do you think the Bills would not have beaten those 5 teams w/ say another average, or at least a QB thought to be very average, at the helm last season?

B/c many other teams a LOT worse than Buffalo beat those teams!

So which is it?

And if so, then why is it that Drew gets credited for 5 more wins at the hands of a cake schedule and Henry's running v. S.D. in a game in which Drew couldn't put a single TD on the boards let alone move the ball at all in an 11 for 33, 107 yard performance w/ a 3.24 YPA and a rating of 43.4 rating???

Does Drew get the credit for that too? And the D holding S.D. to 13???

Oh yeah, and against that mighty, mighty, dead last ranked Charger pass D!!

This is insane!

Drew wins games, but only against teams that teams w/ far worse QBs than Drew can also beat?

Or what?

As well, please keep in mind that it was Drew to throw the needless INT that cost us a win v. K.C.

It was Drew who tossed 4 INTs and fumbled once to set up 21 Jet points in two losses.

It was Drew who tossed a horrendous INT to the rookie Buchanon to effectively end the game and potentially cost us a win v. the Raiders.

It was Drew who had 4 personal TOs setting up 7 G.B. points and costing us 14 of our own in a 10-0 loss.

So what is it? Does Drew help us and give us a chance to win each game? Or does he hurt us more w/ his untimely INTs and TOs to outright cost us games when we're otherwise situated to win them?

I see the latter! As well, I have no idea how a QB who averages 1 TD/game w/ the talent that Drew had around him can be considered as anything other than tremendously underachieving! As of now, Drew is a QB on a horrendous trend, and if you think teams aren't going to try to pressure Drew into making more of those infamous errors this season, then your ignoring reality. They'll come after Drew just as they did last year. The difference will be if Gilbride can take his focus off of his
Bledsoe project long enough to help us win games instead of beating up the scrubs in close games, while handing the big and most important games to opponents!

[WG]

As well, I'll give Drew full credit for capitalizing on that Madison error in the first Fin game, but let's get real, he cant thank Madison for leaving Moulds wide open on a serious error! If Madison doesn't make that mistake, then that TD pass isn't made. Drew then has barely over 100 yards and no other contributions at all in that game.

It was the D, holding your Fins to only 10 points while scoring one of our TDs of our 23 points points in that game. I also think things would have been different had Fiedler, Chambers, and McKnight all not been injured for the first game out for each of them.

Either way, to credit Drew for that is silly. Thank the D! What more could they have done that game! Heck, if they play like that each week this year, then we'll be 16-0!!!

Meanwhile, if Drew plays like that each game this year, we'll be lucky to be .500 again. More like 3-13 again!

So if what you mean is "w/ Drew in there, we have a chance of beating teams that finish 6-10 or worse", then fine, although even that I'll disagree w/ since many teams w/o Drew and even far worse QBs beat those same teams, witness their 10, 12, and 14 losses each!

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
As well, I'll give Drew full credit for capitalizing on that Madison error in the first Fin game, but let's get real, he cant thank Madison for leaving Moulds wide open on a serious error! If Madison doesn't make that mistake, then that TD pass isn't made. Drew then has barely over 100 yards and no other contributions at all in that game.

It was the D, holding your Fins to only 10 points while scoring one of our TDs of our 23 points points in that game. I also think things would have been different had Fiedler, Chambers, and McKnight all not been injured for the first game out for each of them.

Either way, to credit Drew for that is silly. Thank the D! What more could they have done that game! Heck, if they play like that each week this year, then we'll be 16-0!!!

Meanwhile, if Drew plays like that each game this year, we'll be lucky to be .500 again. More like 3-13 again!

So if what you mean is "w/ Drew in there, we have a chance of beating teams that finish 6-10 or worse", then fine, although even that I'll disagree w/ since many teams w/o Drew and even far worse QBs beat those same teams, witness their 10, 12, and 14 losses each!

Wys, I don't know where to start, but I'll try to keep it brief, I understand your stance on Drew, we always knew if the DB's can stay close to his receivers, you had a chance to sack him or rush his pass and hopefully get a TO. But he did win the playoff game to get the Pats into the SB. That was huge, and I think part of the bases for TD trading for him..of the available QB's who would you have gotten last year, and do you really think your record would have been 8-8 with them...Don't tell me, you think you would have won more, right. No way, that meant you would have started off running the ball more and I don't think your OL was ready for that, I could be wrong, but this year will show the real OL you have, if you guys really run like you're projected to do.
I'm not going to try to change your mind about Drew, he has his short comings like most other QB's, but I'd love for Jay to have an arm like his. Right now I think the following: for qb's in the AFCE, I rate 1. Brady, 2. Drew, 3. Pennington, 4. Fielder..and this is a lot for me to say because Jay is the winingest QB out of all them in the last 3 years. Basically I'm rating their arm strength and ability to distribute the ball. If I rated them by ability to escape and make a play, then it would be, 1. Jay, 2. Pennington, 3. Brady, 4. Drew.

[justasportsfan]

So wys, why wouldn't we need Adams if we drafted Joseph? Sorry, can't read the long posts. Just qoute the explanation if it's already been posted by you.

[Doc]

Because Adams is average and Joseph is a superstar who has helped take his last 2 teams to the SB.

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by Doc
Because Adams is average and Joseph is a superstar who has helped take his last 2 teams to the SB.

:rofl:

[TigerJ]

Nice to see all the responses. Keep those ZoneBucks coming guys. LOL

Seriously, I think any rating like this tends to be something of what they call in economics a lagging indicator. That is, it tends to reflect conditions leading up to the present rather than actually predicting what is to come.

I do think Buffalo has the potential to field an offensive line that is better than 10th best in the league, but as the saying goes, they have to do it on the field. Specifically, Teague should show significant improvement at center. Yes, he is a veteran entering his fourth year in the league, but he's a second year center at the pro level. There are different demands of a center than a tackle and I don't think there's any way Teague could have been as good last year as he has the potential to be. That's not a prediction of greatness, but he ought to be better this year than last. The only person on the line I would not expect to have any more upside from last year is Ruben Brown.

I'm not sure from where the impression has come that Sobieski has to come back from an injury and he might not be 100%. He played all last season for Iowa and in the opinion of some observers including Buffalo's scouts he was better than the guy who started ahead of him. The reason he did not start was the coaching staff at Iowa was wary of the discontinuity it might create to plug Sobieski back after starting an underclassman the year before when Sobieski was injured.They would want the younger guy to continue developing. The only worry about Sobieski is that he might be injury prone and might not have the toughness to play through nagging type injuries, but at this point that is only a fear, not proven fact, and not a fear that everyone has.

Pucillo, the other guy mentioned above, (I think I've got the spelling right, Tatonka) was a sevent round draft choice, I think. The Bills have not invested a whole lot in him. The knock on him coming out of college was strength. Technically I think he was always OK and his quickness was sufficient. The only question was could he get stronger. The word out of the Bills camp has been he's gotten much stronger. I know we've followed a carrot on a string before with Tony Driver and others, but strength is an easier characteristic to measure in a player than some others. Nothing ever works out perfectly when you're looking at a whole unit, but Buffalo's line has enough going for it that it should show lots of improvement, and I havent even discussed the coaching change from Ronnie Vinklarek, a proven incompetent to Pat Ruel, a guy who has worked with one of the more highly respected Oline coaches in the league. I heard comments coming out of One Bills Drive this spring to the effect that players were really impressed by how much more they were learning under Pat Ruel. Those were not the comments we heard last year.

[Doc]

Comments from the O-linemen basically said that Vinklarek sucked. I was surprised to hear comments that (more or less) frank about a current (at the time) coach. I was wondering what they were saying about Ruel, so thanks for that bit o' info TJ.

[WG]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN


Wys, I don't know where to start, ...

But he did win the playoff game to get the Pats into the SB.

That was huge, and I think part of the bases for TD trading for him..of the available QB's who would you have gotten last year, and do you really think your record would have been 8-8 with them...

Don't tell me, you think you would have won more, right. No way, that meant you would have started off running the ball more and I don't think your OL was ready for that, I could be wrong, but this year will show the real OL you have, if you guys really run like you're projected to do.


MD,

Your showing your football ignorance w/ every post here.

Go take a look at that box score from that Pittsburgh playoff game and then find for me where "Drew won that game" please! Please!

Then when you are so embarassed for making such an inane statement, you can say you didn't know what in the world you are talking about. Did you even watch that game?? Apparently not!

All I can say is that if Drew plays like that in every game this season, I'll gladly take any one of the other 31 starters in this league! Any one.

As to our record, it would have been better had Drew not been the QB!

And you didn't answer my question either, so why I'm answering yours is beyond me!

Your entire premise is flawed, namely that we only won 8 games b/c of Drew, then asking me if we would have won more games w/ another.

Well, plenty of other teams w/ QBs, like Blake who we could have had, beat some of those teams, some twice, and they did it w/ nowhere near the talent we have on O, or D! So to suggest that we only could have done it w/ ALL the talent we had and then only w/ Drew at QB is completely inane! Completely! If that were the case, then why were those teams all 4-12 +/- 2 games???

I think any QB on this team last year would have led us to 8-8 and possibly better. There's no evidence to the contrary and plenty to support that, namely what I just mentioned.

In case you couldn't put it together, I'll spell it out for you more clearly. You, and others, have suggested the only reason why we won 8 games over Miami twice, S.D., Houston, Detroit, Cincy, Minnesota, and Chicago, was b/c of Drew.

Well, I already proved to you that we surely didn't win the S.D. game b/c of Drew, but rather, to the contrary. So that shoots down your theory there!

For Miami, we played you twice w/o Fiedler, once w/o Chambers and McKnight too. We scored 16 offensive points in the first game while the D put up 7 and allowed only 10. Once again, the win had little to do w/ Drew and his one significant passing play on a bizarre and lucky defensive breakdown than it did w/ our D and the consistent rushing of Henry who averaged 6.0 YPC.

0-2 on your theory.

I'll give you game 2 although it was a team win.

Vs. Minnesota: Other teams that beat Minnesota were Chicago, the Giants, Seattle, and Carolina. Were we, w/o Bledsoe, better than those teams?

vs. Chicago: Other teams that beat Chicago were Detroit, Minnesota, Carolina, St. Louis, New Orleans. Were we, w/o Bledsoe, better than those teams?

vs. Detroit: Other teams that beat Detroit were Carolina, Minnesota, Chicago, and Arizona. Were we, w/o Drew, better than those teams?

vs. Cincy: Other teams that beat Cincy were S.D., Cleveland, Indy, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Jax. Were we, w/o Drew, better than those teams?

vs. Houston: Other teams that beat Houston were Cincy, S.D., Indy, Cleveland, Jax, Baltimore, and Washington. Were we, w/o Drew, better than those teams?

If you're honest you'd agree that even w/ Drew and say Blake or another vet QB at the helm, that we were better than most of those teams who all beat the same teams that you and others say we only beat b/c of Drew.

Now how silly is that???

Let's quit w/ the nonsense here and get back to some element of reality and truth, eh.

In the meantime, how about that game v. K.C. that Drew threw away? Yes, Drew! Thank you Drew for not allowing us to be 9-7. How about that Oakland game when he threw that INT to the rookie Buchanon to end the game essentially and then again following it on the next drive to really ice the game??? Where was all this "big play" passing game stuff you and others talk about then?? Thank you Drew, thank you for not allowing us to be 10-6!!!

How about those N.E. games like the 27-17 game where he tossed the INT to the DE to set up the Pats at our own 9 YL and TD and then again later on! Thank you Drew, thank you for handing the Pats 10 points in what would be the difference! 11-5 down the tubes.

Thanks as well Drew for setting up Green Bay at our own 39 on one of you 4 careless TOs to give the Pack their only TD of the game. Thank you also for tossing that pick on what, 2nd or 3rd and 4 in the GB red zone to kill an early TD. Thank you Drew! Gosh, why I ever do not think Drew is as good as you say, ...

:rolleyes: 12-4 w/o all those errors!

How about his two INTs setting the Jets up for 14 points in the first Jet game in an O/T game??? No INTs, No O/T. Bills win!!! It's that simple. Guess we could have been 13-3 then if Drew doesn't make all those mistakes, eh!

Gosh, what am I thinking!!!

Once again, 19 of 22 team TOs in 7 losses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If he repeats that this year, it's 2.7 TOs/game and we'll be lucky to be 8-8.

Do I really think some other QB would have played better???

The question should be do I really think many QBs could have played those games w/o making nearly 3 TOs per game?

Yes! Yes I do!

Do I really think that we could have beaten Houston just like 14 other teams did, Chicago, just like 13 other teams did, Detroit, just like 14 other teams did, Cincy, just like 14 other teams did, Minnesota, just like 10 other teams did, S.D., just like 8 other teams did, and Miami w/o Fiedler who was 2-4 w/o him, ...?

Yes! Yes I do!

[WG]

And before you lecture me on all the contributions by Drew in those same 7 losses, perhaps you haven't read my other posts on the topic, but he put up 7, that's right, only 7 TDs in those games!

So where on earth are you coming up w/ that drivel is beyond me.

Drew's a media golden boy, and if you ask me, this will be the year that the emperor is unvailed w/o any clothes. Just a guess since all the other elements of success are in place.

There will be excuses for his poor play early on, but it will become too much to overcome by midseason and even the most direst of supporters will admit that his "best days", as if he ever had any, are gone!

[WG]

And yes MD, I would still like for you to point out for me how 10 of 21 for 102 and less than 5 YPA is anything short of crap for a QB in any game, playoff or other.

Go find the boxscore and PBP and then tell me/show me, why on earth you think that game was anything other than horrendous from the standpoint of QB play and how on earth Drew was responsible for winning that game vice the STs and D.

[Tatonka]

oh god.. someone woke the beast..

i can hear wys in his sleep now..

wys wife - "Mark.. WAKE UP! your having another nightmare."

wys - "was i? how do you know?"

wys wife - "um.. you where screaming "DIE DREW DIE!", and.... will you please remove your hands from my throat.. the dream is over."

[Doc]

How many TD's, INT's, and fumbles did Bledsoe have Wys? I trust you recall that he came off the bench cold (not having had the majority of snaps in practice) and rusty (not having played a game in over 4 months), and avoided making costly turnovers, against the best defense in the NFL on the road. True the defense and ST's had a major part in winning the game, but that was the MO of the Pats that year and Bledsoe "won" that AFCCG as much as Brady "won" the SB, although not in as dramatic fashion. Don't confuse winning the game with playing a great game, because RJ had a statistically horrible game against the Titans back in 1999 and walked off the field with the lead before the ST's salted the game away.

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
And yes MD, I would still like for you to point out for me how 10 of 21 for 102 and less than 5 YPA is anything short of crap for a QB in any game, playoff or other.

Go find the boxscore and PBP and then tell me/show me, why on earth you think that game was anything other than horrendous from the standpoint of QB play and how on earth Drew was responsible for winning that game vice the STs and D.

Wys, do you post like that so no one will answer you? Boy I'll stay away from the Drew thing. I wasn't trying to defend Drew, he'll do that one way or the other on the field. All I know is he beat us twice last year, he was the winning QB in that game against Pitts that led to the SB. He's had great games in his career and he's had terrible games. You are a satistic guy, sometimes I just look beyond stats..You can't put the Bills on Drews shoulder and he carry you, those years are gone, as soon as he couldn't scramble a little he lost that, it was a scamble that lost his job in NE. He at least tries. I'm not a Drew fan, but I also respect him. I still love his arm, I say give him time in the pocket and he will burn you. I haven't gone into his stats like you..Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story..Heck Farve has had some ugly games stats wise, but he somehow comes up with the win..no I'm not saying Drew is a Frave, but just letting you know that stats aren't everything. But I'll leave that subject alone, you win..:beer:

[WG]

Originally posted by Doc
True the defense and ST's had a major part in winning the game, but that was the MO of the Pats that year and Bledsoe "won" that AFCCG as much as Brady "won" the SB, although not in as dramatic fashion.

BS!!!

Drew had 3 of 4 good plays and then played like Ryan Leaf for the rest of the game. If you want the PBP, I've got it in Excel, I'd be happy to cut and paste it in here for you. Just beware, you'll look silly if I do.

Drew had 3 of 4 good plays and was absolutely HORRID after that going 7 of 18 for 66 yards, 0 TDs, 3.6 YPA and a rating that was in the sewer! How anyone can construe that game as being anything other than CRAP is beyond me!

Again, if he plays like that in 16 games this season, we won't win a single game due to his contributions.

Actually, that play, while contributing hardly anything may in fact be better than last season's play when he tossed up nearly 3 TOs/game in 7 losses!

Heck, maybe such "lack of performance" coupled w/ the "lack of errors/TOs" would in fact be better...Hmmm! LOL

[WG]

Originally posted by Tatonka
oh god.. someone woke the beast..

i can hear wys in his sleep now..

wys wife - "Mark.. WAKE UP! your having another nightmare."

wys - "was i? how do you know?"

wys wife - "um.. you where screaming "DIE DREW DIE!", and.... will you please remove your hands from my throat.. the dream is over."

I killed her last week. I woke up and thought she was Kevin Gilbride. When I asked Kevin,...er, a..., her, why he was in my bed, she just looked at me strange. So I strangled her.

:D

[justasportsfan]

Yeah right. We all know it was Drew, wys.

[WG]

:scared:

It's a lie!

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
:scared:

It's a lie!

Wys hates Drew because Drew can run faster than him :snicker:

[WG]

Run?

Drew can run?

Well, I guess so then, b/c I sure can't after this last knee surgery! LOL

Dang, I feel like all my cartilege was ripped out. LOL

[BillC]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
BTW, if we had drafted Joseph, we wouldn't have had to sign Adams. We would have had quite a bit of cash left in addition to the large amt. we already have excess.

Dude-

The fact that we stil have tons of cash and have not sighned anyone is a clear indication that THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE WORTH SIGNING!

Even if you are correct in thinking Joseph is worth a damn ( I don't) Adams is better/will be better than Joseph for the immediate future.

TD is God.... Drew is great.. thank you for your time...:D

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


I killed her last week. I woke up and thought she was Kevin Gilbride. When I asked Kevin,...er, a..., her, why he was in my bed, she just looked at me strange. So I strangled her.

:D

:lol:

Just make sure I stay away from you, please put your name on yor shirt at a game so I know where not to sit.:biggrin:

[Doc]

Wys: I could care less what Bledsoe's OTHER stats were, as long as he threw a TD (the margin of victory) and avoided throwing any INT's or fumbling the ball. Again he did what was expected of him, i.e. avoid turnovers and score some points, and let the rest of the team do their jobs. The reason why you lose these arguments is because you shift your argument to suit your purpose. On one hand you talk about how many turnovers Bledsoe had in the 8 losses versus TD passes, yet here you completely ignore the turnover:TD ratio and focus on completion percentage and YPA. DING! I mean does it get through your head that the Steelers had the best record in the AFC for a reason? How about lack of playing time Drew had prior to that game? I'm sorry that Drew isn't superhuman, but then again, neither was Kelly, and I loved Kelly. In any case, I'll take a performance like what Bledsoe had in the AFCCG as long as the Bills end up with the "W," and I'm hoping that he CAN fallback to relying on his defense, ST's, and running game to carry the load and remove it all from his shoulders.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by BillC


Dude-

The fact that we stil have tons of cash and have not sighned anyone is a clear indication that THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE WORTH SIGNING!

Even if you are correct in thinking Joseph is worth a damn ( I don't) Adams is better/will be better than Joseph for the immediate future.

TD is God.... Drew is great.. thank you for your time...:D

Don't know why wys would think we would not need Adams by signing Joseph.

[WG]

Originally posted by BillC


Dude-

The fact that we stil have tons of cash and have not sighned anyone is a clear indication that THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE WORTH SIGNING!

Even if you are correct in thinking Joseph is worth a damn ( I don't) Adams is better/will be better than Joseph for the immediate future.

TD is God.... Drew is great.. thank you for your time...:D

Could have had both there!

What if Adams is getting washed up? Then what?

B/c PW surely doesn't have 4 years left!

I'd say we'll be happy if PW is as good as he is for another two seasons. He'll be 34 after that. We need to start bringing some youth in, and I'd have preferred it if we didn't bring in a rookie to replace one of the two. A second year or even a third year man w/ some experience under his belt would be nice.

As well, regardless of what you say, Joseph would have been better depth than we currently have after Adams and Williams! The Giants, pretty darned good evaluators of DL talent I'd have to say, seemed to have felt he was worth taking 2 picks after we selected.

[WG]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN


:lol:

Just make sure I stay away from you, please put your name on yor shirt at a game so I know where not to sit.:biggrin:

It's just like Freddy Kruger in NoES. You just have to make sure I don't doze off! :D

Besides, I'd kill you before the game even begins for bein' a Fin-fan! :D

[WG]

Originally posted by Doc
Wys: I could care less what Bledsoe's OTHER stats were, as long as he threw a TD (the margin of victory) and avoided throwing any INT's or fumbling the ball. Again he did what was expected of him, i.e. avoid turnovers and score some points, and let the rest of the team do their jobs.

The reason why you lose these arguments is because you shift your argument to suit your purpose.

On one hand you talk about how many turnovers Bledsoe had in the 8 losses versus TD passes, yet here you completely ignore the turnover:TD ratio and focus on completion percentage and YPA. DING! I mean does it get through your head that the Steelers had the best record in the AFC for a reason? How about lack of playing time Drew had prior to that game? I'm sorry that Drew isn't superhuman, but then again, neither was Kelly, and I loved Kelly. In any case, I'll take a performance like what Bledsoe had in the AFCCG as long as the Bills end up with the "W," and I'm hoping that he CAN fallback to relying on his defense, ST's, and running game to carry the load and remove it all from his shoulders.

Did he "avoid TOs and score some points?"

Again, unless you think that there's no way we could have beaten Houston, Detroit, Minnesota, Chicago, and Cincy w/o Drew, the fact remains, that he did exactly what you just said he didn't do!

He did throw INTs and Fumble the ball costing us points and leading to points of our opponents. In the last 10 games, he didn't put points on the board unless you consider 1 TD/game totally unachieveable by any other QBs in the league, especially w/ the talent we had on our O! And 3 of those 10 TDs were v. Miami in blizzard conditions! After that, he only put up 7 TDs in 9 or our 10 last games.

You gonna be happy w/ such performances this season?

I don't think so!!!

The reason why I can't win these arguments is b/c your stance is based on pure emotion and favortism over factual evidence contradicting even your own invalid arguments.

There's no sense in arguing this w/ you b/c you've made your mind up and won't be persuaded by facts. I can understand all this hype over Drew to an extent. But Drew was already being touted in his first three seasons based on yardage alone which carries his perception to this day.

In his first three seasons he tossed 53 TDs to 58 INTs and never had more TDs than INTs in any given season and he was still touted as being great. Unreal quite frankly!

If you are looking for a QB to put up points, Drew's not your man. Particularly if you want those points v. teams .500 or better.

Since you and others prefer a couple of big and spectacular long throws taken out of the context of an entire game and yardage, attempts, and completions over actual TD production, 3rd-down efficiency, lack of sacks, there will be a disconnect in the way we both view things.

[WG]

Originally posted by justasportsfan


Don't know why wys would think we would not need Adams by signing Joseph.

I think both would have been great!

Frankly, if Joseph starts, I'll say right now that he'll post better numbers than Adams even as a rookie. He is a pass rusher too which Adams certainly is not.

All I'm sayin' is that we may very well be in the market for a DT to start again next year or very likely the year after, possibly two DTs. At the present time we have absolutely no depth to step in as a starter at that position.

Several free agents, primarily Thornton, would have been good to have and certainly Joseph would have fit the bill.

I can't believe I'm arguing that we should have improved ourselves in that area and getting an argument over it.

OK then, let's just have no depth, no future players, and risk mediocrity then. If you guys don't care, then I can't care for you.

I'd like to see a winner in '04 and '05 too, and even beyond!

Guess y'all don't care, eh...

[WG]

Sorry, but what Adams did in '99 or whenever the Ravens won the SB won't help us this season contrary to everyone's hopes and dreams!

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


I think both would have been great!

Frankly, if Joseph starts, I'll say right now that he'll post better numbers than Adams even as a rookie. He is a pass rusher too which Adams certainly is not.


A respected vet over an unproven rookie? Don't even tell me what Joseph potentials are . Mind if I use your own statement against you? No ? okay

WYS:
"Yeah, "supposed to be"!

Haven't you heard enough of that for a year or two now?

So was Denney! So was Robinson! So was Jenkins! The list goes on. What do you expect them to say? It appears that he's a bust? "



You Like? :D

[ryven]

Sam adams has 29 sacks which isnt bad for DT at this point in there career thats all ted washigton has so adams is a much better pass rusher than we give him credit for I would still take adams over joseph at this point in time when and only when joseph becomes as big of an disruption that is when my opion will change.

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

Wys... WOW!!!!!!!!
Wys Guy<~~ Now this is a football fan.. Absolutely incredible.
I myself missed the first 15 weeks of last years season and also wondered what the hype was on Bledsoe by looking at the stats.. But thought maybe he brought more to it than just the stats.. Your bashing of Bledsoe gets me pumped into thinking Miami will be alone in AFC East... :rofl:
Wys.. What you think of Jay Fiedler?? Honest answer required.. You wont hurt my feelings if you bash him like you did to Bill fans when talking about Bledsoe.. To tell the truth, I'm scared to ask :crazed:

HURRAH:drinker:

[Doc]

Bledsoe torched Miami pretty well in BOTH games, and the second one was during the latter part of the season. I think that speaks volumes. As for Fiedler, hopefully (for you) his injury won't make him look like Kurt Warner did last year, and hopefully the pressure of Griese breathing down his neck won't make him crack.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by RUDEbyallMEANS
Wys.. What you think of Jay Fiedler?? Honest answer required.. You wont hurt my feelings if you bash him like you did to Bill fans when talking about Bledsoe.. To tell the truth, I'm scared to ask :crazed:

HURRAH:drinker:

You should be scared. You ever read War and Peace?

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

Originally posted by Doc
Bledsoe torched Miami pretty well in BOTH games, and the second one was during the latter part of the season. I think that speaks volumes. As for Fiedler, hopefully (for you) his injury won't make him look like Kurt Warner did last year, and hopefully the pressure of Griese breathing down his neck won't make him crack.

How did Blesoe "torch" Miami in game 1 last year?? Bledsoe threw for 182 yards and 1 TD consisting of a 70 yard throw to Moulds that was wrapped and pinned with a bow to them.. Remember that?? Or are you convinced Moulds was open because of his ability?? :rofl:.. Now take away that one play and you have Bledsoe with 14 completions for 112 yards with a 48% completion percentage.. WOW!!! Amazing numbers!! You talk about injuries yet if anything happened to Bledsoe.. Good Bye Bills.. But going from what Wys Guy says, hopefully Bledsoe doesn't get injured.. :D The 2nd meeting last year was a complete collapse by Miami, a bounce here and there.. there went 130 yards for Bledsoe on 2 passes.. There's a reason why Bellicheck went with Brady rather than Bledsoe..

HURRAH:drinker:

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by RUDEbyallMEANS
Wys... WOW!!!!!!!!
Wys Guy&lt;~~ Now this is a football fan.. Absolutely incredible.
I myself missed the first 15 weeks of last years season and also wondered what the hype was on Bledsoe by looking at the stats.. But thought maybe he brought more to it than just the stats.. Your bashing of Bledsoe gets me pumped into thinking Miami will be alone in AFC East... :rofl:
Wys.. What you think of Jay Fiedler?? Honest answer required.. You wont hurt my feelings if you bash him like you did to Bill fans when talking about Bledsoe.. To tell the truth, I'm scared to ask :crazed:

HURRAH:drinker:

RBYAM, be careful of what you asked when asking Wys.:pimp:

[Doc]

Originally posted by RUDEbyallMEANS


How did Blesoe &quot;torch&quot; Miami in game 1 last year?? Bledsoe threw for 182 yards and 1 TD consisting of a 70 yard throw to Moulds that was wrapped and pinned with a bow to them.. Remember that?? Or are you convinced Moulds was open because of his ability?? :rofl:.. Now take away that one play and you have Bledsoe with 14 completions for 112 yards with a 48% completion percentage.. WOW!!! Amazing numbers!! You talk about injuries yet if anything happened to Bledsoe.. Good Bye Bills.. But going from what Wys Guy says, hopefully Bledsoe doesn't get injured.. :D The 2nd meeting last year was a complete collapse by Miami, a bounce here and there.. there went 130 yards for Bledsoe on 2 passes.. There's a reason why Bellicheck went with Brady rather than Bledsoe..

HURRAH:drinker:

LMAO! Sure RBAM, let's throw out the stats you want and fantasize about this and that. How about we take away a couple TD's and say the Dols swept the Bills? The "Bledsoe torched Miami" was primarily directed towards the 2nd game, during Bledsoe's aforementioned "slump." Basically it was saying that YOU as a Dols fan of all people shouldn't be getting giddy about Bledsoe possibly faltering in the second half of the season. As for getting injured, outside of the super fluky sheared artery he suffered in 2001, he's been an extremely durable QB. With the move to run the ball more and with an O-line that should be better, keeping him healthy shouldn't be any harder than it was last year.

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

Originally posted by Doc


LMAO! Sure RBAM, let's throw out the stats you want and fantasize about this and that. How about we take away a couple TD's and say the Dols swept the Bills? The &quot;Bledsoe torched Miami&quot; was primarily directed towards the 2nd game, during Bledsoe's aforementioned &quot;slump.&quot; Basically it was saying that YOU as a Dols fan of all people shouldn't be getting giddy about Bledsoe possibly faltering in the second half of the season. As for getting injured, outside of the super fluky sheared artery he suffered in 2001, he's been an extremely durable QB. With the move to run the ball more and with an O-line that should be better, keeping him healthy shouldn't be any harder than it was last year.

It's no secret that Moulds 70 yard TD in game 1 was very fortunate.. Obviously, you did not see that game or you wouldn't even be arguing that play as if it were earned.. You say it was directed to Game 2 yet this quote proves otherwise..


Originally posted by Doc
Bledsoe torched Miami pretty well in BOTH games.

It just sounds to me like you weren't aware of Bledsoe's performance at Miami and you tried to cover your ignorance by saying "No well.. ummm.. I meant Game 2".
Who's getting giddy about Bledsoe faltering?? It's to be expected.. Nothing to get excited about.. Once again, a Bill fan overlooking all the teams they won against other than the Phins.. Lets take a look at the teams the Bills beat besides Miami: Bears in OT, Vikings in OT, Texans, Lions, Chargers and Bengals.. Not a real stellar group there guy.. :rolleyes: Talk about putting your team on a high horse..

HURRAH:drinker:

[Doc]

Again RBAM, let's throw out every team's "fortunate" plays and see where that leaves us. As for that 70-yard TD being lucky, yeah Moulds running by Madison was TOTAL luck because it's not like Moulds has ever done that to the Dols before. Like I said, you better HOPE that Madison had an off-year last year, and that Buckley still has something left in the tank after 12 seasons. And as for Bledsoe fading, now that he has a team that he won't have to carry, unlike the majority of the teams he's played on in the past, I'm not too worried about that.

[baalworship]

This thread started as an offensive line thread...

[TigerJ]

The reality of a fan board is some threads morph. Who knows someone might bring it back to the Oline.

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN


RBYAM, be careful of what you asked when asking Wys.:pimp:

:lol: :lol: He's got alot to say about Bledsoe.. Probably much more to say about Fiedler..

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

Originally posted by baalworship
This thread started as an offensive line thread...

Doc started it.. :gag: :D

[Doc]

Tattle tale!