BBD Mock V1.2

[DraftBoy]

As promised, new mock today. Bills picking 15th...

http://www.buffalobillsdraft.com/2013-nfl-mock-draft/

Go ahead and kill it.

[jdaltroy5]

I'd be really happy if we could get the 3rd best QB in the 15 spot.

We can't wait any longer. We have to go after a QB and we have to do it in the first round. If you like one, move up and get him, I don't even care anymore.

I can't keep watching Fitz skip the ball into the intended receiver. There's just no hope left there.

I think if we do that and go out and get the best LB on the market and draft one more in the second round, then we'll be sitting pretty.

[DraftBoy]

I'd be really happy if we could get the 3rd best QB in the 15 spot.

We can't wait any longer. We have to go after a QB and we have to do it in the first round. If you like one, move up and get him, I don't even care anymore.

I can't keep watching Fitz skip the ball into the intended receiver. There's just no hope left there.

I think if we do that and go out and get the best LB on the market and draft one more in the second round, then we'll be sitting pretty.

Well I think there is some quality in Round 2 as far as the QB's go. I really like Dysert in Round 2 or Manuel who our writer likes as high as 15.

[jdaltroy5]

Well I think there is some quality in Round 2 as far as the QB's go. I really like Dysert in Round 2 or Manuel who our writer likes as high as 15.
If you like him in round 2, then take him in round 1.

I just don't think they can afford to gamble and not get their guy.

I think they wanted Tebow in 2010 and Ponder in 2011, but waited hoping that they would get them in round 2.

QBs always go higher than you expect (unless there's a major flaw), so there's no point in screwing around.

[DraftBoy]

If you like him in round 2, then take him in round 1.

Not just no, but never ever.

[Ed]

The Bills would have the 21st pick. They're the 6th seed in the AFC right now.

[DraftBoy]

The Bills would have the 21st pick. They're the 6th seed in the AFC right now.

Not doing reverse playoff standings, straight SOS tiebreakers on least wins.

[Extremebillsfan247]

knowing this team's recent history, they will likely wait too long to pick the QB they figure is ideal, and watch a team draft him just before them. Also, 9-7 is still a very realistic possibility. I don't know where that puts them in the draft order if that is how they finish the season.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Not just no, but never ever.

That's old thinking. With the way rookie contracts have become so much more team-friendly, QBs just don't fall like they used to. We can't afford to watch all our 2nd/3rd/4th option QBs get drafted and end up saying "Welp, looks like Fitz/Tarvaris is gonna get another year to prove themselves." If the QB we want is going to be drafted ahead of us, go get him. If not, grab him at first opportunity.

[DraftBoy]

That's old thinking. With the way rookie contracts have become so much more team-friendly, QBs just don't fall like they used to. We can't afford to watch all our 2nd/3rd/4th option QBs get drafted and end up saying "Welp, looks like Fitz/Tarvaris is gonna get another year to prove themselves." If the QB we want is going to be drafted ahead of us, go get him. If not, grab him at first opportunity.

You never reach for need, always pick to maximize value.

[jdaltroy5]

Not just no, but never ever.
I'm only talking about a QB.

They ALWAYS go higher than people expect, so if you think he could be a franchise guy, then take him in the first round.

Dareus over Ponder was a no-brainer right?

WRONG. The Vikes are 4-2 and Ponder is playing like a top ten QB in only his second year.

It is VERY rare to be successful in the NFL without a good QB and until you find one, it should be the number one priority.

[jdaltroy5]

You never reach for need, always pick to maximize value.
When your need is a QB, I'm ok with them reaching for need.

We will NEVER be successful with Fitz, so we need to move on.

[Mr. Miyagi]

You never reach for need, always pick to maximize value.
It's not a reach if you get the guy you want anyway.

[DraftBoy]

I'm only talking about a QB.

They ALWAYS go higher than people expect, so if you think he could be a franchise guy, then take him in the first round.

Dareus over Ponder was a no-brainer right?

WRONG. The Vikes are 4-2 and Ponder is playing like a top ten QB in only his second year.

It is VERY rare to be successful in the NFL without a good QB and until you find one, it should be the number one priority.

You could talk about any position the answer is still never ever.

Yes Dareus was and is a no-brainer over Ponder.

I don't disagree with it being priority #1, but that doesn't mean you become reckless with your draft philosophy. That's how you end up with JP Losman.

[DraftBoy]

It's not a reach if you get the guy you want anyway.

It is if you wanted him in Round 2 and took him in Round 1 instead. You always maximize your value, if your need isn't there go to the next one and the next one. Get the best player possible for your football team, don't reach down into a lower round grade simply because you want a QB or whatever position. That's foolish.

[Night Train]

As promised, new mock today. Bills picking 15th...

http://www.buffalobillsdraft.com/2013-nfl-mock-draft/

Go ahead and kill it.
I'd be happy as hell with a QB and Wislon is a good one. You're spot on.

Naturally, I expect them to pick a CB. It's who they are.

[Mr. Miyagi]

It is if you wanted him in Round 2 and took him in Round 1 instead. You always maximize your value, if your need isn't there go to the next one and the next one. Get the best player possible for your football team, don't reach down into a lower round grade simply because you want a QB or whatever position. That's foolish.
If there's a guy you want and you have to reach to get him because you know he won't come back to you in the next round, I'm all for it.

[DraftBoy]

I'd be happy as hell with a QB and Wislon is a good one. You're spot on.

Naturally, I expect them to pick a CB. It's who they are.

Personally Im expecting them to go back to RB.

- - - Updated - - -


If there's a guy you want and you have to reach to get him because you know he won't come back to you in the next round, I'm all for it.

And Im all for maximizing value, if he's not there then its on to the next one. Why would you purposely sell low on the pick to buy high on a prospect that's not worth it?

[jdaltroy5]

You could talk about any position the answer is still never ever.

Yes Dareus was and is a no-brainer over Ponder.

I don't disagree with it being priority #1, but that doesn't mean you become reckless with your draft philosophy. That's how you end up with JP Losman.

No Dareus wasn't a no-brainer. Minny is looking like it they are on the upswing and we look the same as we have for the last 10 years.

Sure that's how you end up with JP Losman, but taking BPA is how you end up with Maybin, Whitner, McKelvin, Williams, and all the other crappy players we've had over the last decade +.

Weeden and Tannehill were both picked MUCH higher than most people expected. Tannehill actually looks like he'll be a very good player and Weeden looks like he'll be out of the league in 3 years.

I admire both of those teams for saying, "F it, we need a QB, so let's go after the best one available."

Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

When it works out, you're a contender for 10-15 years. When it doesn't, you're in the same spot you were in last year.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You never reach for need, always pick to maximize value.

I disagree with this. The problem with "Need" drafting is that people define their needs too narrowly. Saying "We need to get a wideout" is fine. Saying "We need a tall wideout to grab jump balls in the end zone" is what leads to James Hardy over DeSean Jackson. QB is our biggest need, by far. If we try another rebuild with castoffs and late-round longshots at that position, we are going to be stuck in the same cycle we've been in for years.

[The Jokeman]

I brought up E.J. Manuel in another thread and the way he's playing this year it's hard to not take him over Wilson. Though agree that he's not in the Barkley/Smith discussion in terms of complete QBs but he does a nice skill set that Gailey could really mold into something. Yet he has some of the same issues that Fitz has in terms of staring down receivers and questions about his accuracy. That said he does have a much stronger armer than Fitz does and more athletic.

[kingJofNYC]

I actually like Wilson, he's a tough player but I worry about him physically. The guy has taken an absolute beating playing behind that piss poor Arkansas line, this year more so. Love how he keeps his eyes downfield and is willing to make a throw with someone right in his face.

[DraftBoy]

No Dareus wasn't a no-brainer. Minny is looking like it they are on the upswing and we look the same as we have for the last 10 years.

Sure that's how you end up with JP Losman, but taking BPA is how you end up with Maybin, Whitner, McKelvin, Williams, and all the other crappy players we've had over the last decade +.

Weeden and Tannehill were both picked MUCH higher than most people expected. Tannehill actually looks like he'll be a very good player and Weeden looks like he'll be out of the league in 3 years.

I admire both of those teams for saying, "F it, we need a QB, so let's go after the best one available."

Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

When it works out, you're a contender for 10-15 years. When it doesn't, you're in the same spot you were in last year.

Yes he was, and Minny is on the up swing because they have players like Adrian Peterson and Jared Allen in addition to young talent like Christian Ponder and Kyle Rudolph. They have drafted very well, but that doesn't mean that Ponder is the sole reason they are improving. They have built a strong team and foundation around him.

Maybin was a reach for our pass rush need, Whiter was a reach because we had literally no safety help, McKelvin was just us having a hard on for CB's, Im not sure which Williams you're referring to, to continue this trend though Troup was a reach. You know what happens when we maximize value? We end up with guys like Spiller, Evans, and McGahee you know players that produce and make plays happen.

Its been 6 games, Weeden just notched his first win and no neither was taken much higher than most people expected. Many people had Weeden higher than he went and Tannehill was always considered to be a 1st Round pick (fyi I had a 2nd round grade on him).

I admire teams who scout, do their due diligence and make the pick even if its not popular with their fan base. I don't admire brazen acts that often end up being their undoing.

The draft is a crap shoot, but there are ways to at least lessen your risk, and sure maybe you hit it out of the park reaching down to grab a guy that's not worth it value wise but the majority of the time you don't and then you get fired.

[DraftBoy]

I disagree with this. The problem with "Need" drafting is that people define their needs too narrowly. Saying "We need to get a wideout" is fine. Saying "We need a tall wideout to grab jump balls in the end zone" is what leads to James Hardy over DeSean Jackson. QB is our biggest need, by far. If we try another rebuild with castoffs and late-round longshots at that position, we are going to be stuck in the same cycle we've been in for years.

No the problem with need is that you go to general. We need a QB so we take JP Losman who had a great deep ball, but couldn't read coverage, had little pocket awareness, and whose mechanics were flawed.

Hardy was a miss, but he was the WR we needed in terms of type. Sometimes you just miss.

[X-Era]

I'd rather have Te'o.

[jdaltroy5]

Yes he was, and Minny is on the up swing because they have players like Adrian Peterson and Jared Allen in addition to young talent like Christian Ponder and Kyle Rudolph. They have drafted very well, but that doesn't mean that Ponder is the sole reason they are improving. They have built a strong team and foundation around him. They do have players like AP and Allen. They were also 3-13 last year with those players and 6-10 the year before. I'm not saying that Ponder is the only reason that Minny is playing well now, but he's a BIG reason for the turnaround.


Maybin was a reach for our pass rush need, Whiter was a reach because we had literally no safety help, McKelvin was just us having a hard on for CB's, Im not sure which Williams you're referring to, to continue this trend though Troup was a reach. You know what happens when we maximize value? We end up with guys like Spiller, Evans, and McGahee you know players that produce and make plays happen. I agree that we shouldn't reach for a need that isn't QB. I just think that QB is such a crucial position that it is absolutely necessary to reach and get one that you want. Look the fact of the matter is that we can't go any farther with Fitz. He sucks. You know it. I know it. We HAVE to upgrade the position or we will NEVER be in a position to win the Super Bowl. I won't be happy to just make the playoffs based on a cakewalk schedule so that we can get destroyed in the first game.

I want a real contending team that has a legitimate shot to win the Super Bowl every year. There are two ways to do that.

1)Get a QB and then spend the next 15 years trying to put as much talent around him as humanly possible.

2) Build a stacked defense and spend a high pick on a game manager QB that you pray just throws it to the right colour.

Personally, I'm not interested in dumping all these picks on a defense that doesn't seem to be able to stop anybody.


Its been 6 games, Weeden just notched his first win and no neither was taken much higher than most people expected. Many people had Weeden higher than he went and Tannehill was always considered to be a 1st Round pick (fyi I had a 2nd round grade on him).If you had a second round grade on Tannehill, then that means that you think he was drafted too high. Do you think Miami would rather have Tannehill or Stephon Gilmore? Here's a perfect example - in 2008, Miami went with the BPA and took Jake Long. They've made the playoffs once since then. Atlanta "reached" because they needed a QB. They've had a .760 winning percentage since then. Atlanta is laughing at Miami's BPA approach.


I admire teams who scout, do their due diligence and make the pick even if its not popular with their fan base. I don't admire brazen acts that often end up being their undoing. So do I. I'm not saying, "Take a QB no matter what!!!!!" I'm saying if there's a QB that you think is going to be a franchise player, then take him in the first. Don't pass on him for BPA and hope he falls to you in the second round. I was ok with the Bills passing on a QB in 2010. That was the worst crop of QBs I've ever seen. If there's a QB that they think is going to be a franchise player, then I'm ok with them selling the farm to get him.


The draft is a crap shoot, but there are ways to at least lessen your risk, and sure maybe you hit it out of the park reaching down to grab a guy that's not worth it value wise but the majority of the time you don't and then you get fired.Staying par for the course and taking the BPA like Buddy is doing is going to get him fired too.

[mysticsoto]

It is if you wanted him in Round 2 and took him in Round 1 instead. You always maximize your value, if your need isn't there go to the next one and the next one. Get the best player possible for your football team, don't reach down into a lower round grade simply because you want a QB or whatever position. That's foolish.

So I'm curious...does that mean you don't believe in trading up? Or is that different b'cse the person you are trading up for theoretically has a higher value?

[DraftBoy]

So I'm curious...does that mean you don't believe in trading up? Or is that different b'cse the person you are trading up for theoretically has a higher value?

I traditionally hate trading up but since its for a better value Im ok with it as long as your not giving away extra picks. For example, I thought the Redskins over paid in terms of pick value to move up but I thought RGIII's value transcended that.

[jdaltroy5]

Hell just look at these stats and their corresponding records:

Defense:
1. Pittsburgh 12-4
2. Houston 10-6
3. Baltimore 12-4
4. San Fran 13-3
5. New York Jets 8-8
6. Jacksonville 5-11
7. Cincinnati 9-7
8. Philly 8-8
9. Seattle 7-9
10. Cleveland 4-12
11. KC 7-9
12. Atlanta 10-6

Avg - .536

Offense:
1. New Orleans 13-3
2. New England 13-3
3. Green Bay 15-1
4. Philly 8-8
5. Detroit 10-6
6. San Diego 8-8
7. Carolina 6-10
8. New York Giants 9-7
9. Oakland 8-8
10. Atlanta 10-6
11. Dallas 8-8
12. Pittsburgh 12-4
Avg. - .612

Also keep in mind that both teams that played for the Super Bowl weren't even on the list for best defenses.

Now let's look at playoff teams -

Packers (1)
Patriots (6)
Saints (2)
Niners (1)
Ravens (1)
Steelers (1)
Falcons (1)
Lions (1)
Texans (3)
Bengals (2)
Giants (1)
Broncos (1)

8/12 in the first two rounds = 75%

Now let's look at the teams with losing records:

Chiefs (7)
Seahawks (2)
Bills (7)
Panthers (1)
Dolphins (UDFA)
Jaguars (1)
Redskins (1)
Browns (3)
Bucs (1)
Vikings (1)
Colts (6)
Rams (1)

6/12 = 50%

The brackets next to the team denote the round their starting QB was taken in.

Also to note, out of the 6 first round QBs with losing records, 3 were rookies, and 5 were within their first 3 years.

I think it's time to take the leap on a first round QB.

[jamze132]

You never reach for need, always pick to maximize value.

Times are changing buddy.

[Mike]

Draft Boy

How do you compare this QB draft class to past 3 years?

Player for player, as prospects how would your rank them?
Cam, RG3, Luck, Locker, Ponder, Gabbert, Mallet, Dalton, Wilson, Tennehil, Bradford, etc...

[coastal]

As promised, new mock today. Bills picking 15th...

http://www.buffalobillsdraft.com/2013-nfl-mock-draft/

Go ahead and kill it.
No thanks on Wilson, but the other options you have are my top 2 selections for the Bills.

period. End of story. Can't see this changing.

heres the problem though... By the time the NCAA season wraps up, I think Emanuel might end up being the seconD QB taken. Barkley has a Brady Quinn-esque drop written all over him.

aside from geno... EJ's the only QB I'd drop a top 20 first round pick on. Knowing the Bills, we will reach on one of the other stiffs with our first pick instead of getting the defensive QB we so desperately need in Te'o.

[DraftBoy]

Times are changing buddy.

People say that every year, yet every year the same truths ring true.

[DraftBoy]

Draft Boy

How do you compare this QB draft class to past 3 years?

Player for player, as prospects how would your rank them?
Cam, RG3, Luck, Locker, Ponder, Gabbert, Mallet, Dalton, Wilson, Tennehil, Bradford, etc...

I think this class is as strong as any we've seen in a long time, I wasnt a fan of any of the QB classes recently because they usually had one or two good prospects and the rest was just meh. This class has legit 4-5 top seniors with another 2-3 potential high impact juniors.

[DraftBoy]

No thanks on Wilson, but the other options you have are my top 2 selections for the Bills.

period. End of story. Can't see this changing.

heres the problem though... By the time the NCAA season wraps up, I think Emanuel might end up being the seconD QB taken. Barkley has a Brady Quinn-esque drop written all over him.

aside from geno... EJ's the only QB I'd drop a top 20 first round pick on. Knowing the Bills, we will reach on one of the other stiffs with our first pick instead of getting the defensive QB we so desperately need in Te'o.

Kinda scary to think you can close out an opinion in October, too much work still to be done. I dont think EJ is in the running to be the 2nd QB taken, maybe he gets there eventually but he's still a QB who does everything well but nothing exemplary.

I have a current 2nd-3rd grade on EJ, wouldn't touch him in the Top 45.

I have no issue with Te'o think he's a great fit for the defense, but he still has to do his mission and we don't know when that will be. Could be after his playing days.

[jdaltroy5]

I think this class is as strong as any we've seen in a long time, I wasnt a fan of any of the QB classes recently because they usually had one or two good prospects and the rest was just meh. This class has legit 4-5 top seniors with another 2-3 potential high impact juniors.
If you think there are 4-5 legit Seniors, then why wouldn't you think this was the year to take a QB no matter what?

I agree that reaching for a QB in 2010 was a bad idea because that class was god-awful, but if you think there are 4-5 legit QBs then wouldn't you want to take the best one possible?

[coastal]

Kinda scary to think you can close out an opinion in October, too much work still to be done. I dont think EJ is in the running to be the 2nd QB taken, maybe he gets there eventually but he's still a QB who does everything well but nothing exemplary.

I have a current 2nd-3rd grade on EJ, wouldn't touch him in the Top 45.

I have no issue with Te'o think he's a great fit for the defense, but he still has to do his mission and we don't know when that will be. Could be after his playing days.unless Te'o gets injured his book of work is already established and fits a huge need for the Bills at possibly a Pro Bowl level. What's scary about already knowing that?

as far as EJ.. If FSU has late season, high profile success... EJ goes top ten.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

No the problem with need is that you go to general. We need a QB so we take JP Losman who had a great deep ball, but couldn't read coverage, had little pocket awareness, and whose mechanics were flawed.

Hardy was a miss, but he was the WR we needed in terms of type. Sometimes you just miss.

No, Losman was drafted because he was mobile. If you look at our run of QB failures, every one has been an overreaction to the faults of the one who came before.

Rob Johnson took forever to make decisions so we traded for...

Drew Bledsoe, who was experienced, but about as swift and agile as a battleship so we drafted...

JP Losman, who was mobile and could escape pressure but couldn't read defenses and so he begat....

Trent Edwards, who had good feet in the pocket and short/medium accuracy, but who flatly refused to throw downfield so we started...

Ryan Fitzpatrick, who is very mobile, brave downfield (to a fault), and good at pre-snap reads but horrendously inaccurate

[DraftBoy]

If you think there are 4-5 legit Seniors, then why wouldn't you think this was the year to take a QB no matter what?

I agree that reaching for a QB in 2010 was a bad idea because that class was god-awful, but if you think there are 4-5 legit QBs then wouldn't you want to take the best one possible?

When did I say that this wasn't the year to take one? There is never going to be a year where any position is a take it no matter what scenario.

Because there are 4-5 legit senior but only 3 have 1st round grades.

[jdaltroy5]

No, Losman was drafted because he was mobile. If you look at our run of QB failures, every one has been an overreaction to the faults of the one who came before.

Rob Johnson took forever to make decisions so we traded for...

Drew Bledsoe, who was experienced, but about as swift and agile as a battleship so we drafted...

JP Losman, who was mobile and could escape pressure but couldn't read defenses and so he begat....

Trent Edwards, who had good feet in the pocket and short/medium accuracy, but who flatly refused to throw downfield so we started...

Ryan Fitzpatrick, who is very mobile, brave downfield (to a fault), and good at pre-snap reads but horrendously inaccurate
So they'll be looking for a huge, black clean shaven QB that can throw a country mile and has a single digit IQ.

I thought they already got rid of Vince Young?

[DraftBoy]

unless Te'o gets injured his book of work is already established and fits a huge need for the Bills at possibly a Pro Bowl level. What's scary about already knowing that?

as far as EJ.. If FSU has late season, high profile success... EJ goes top ten.

Well the mission issue, the fact that there are questions about his agression, and to see how he reacts long term to the current personal situation.

EJ isn't going Top 10.

- - - Updated - - -


No, Losman was drafted because he was mobile. If you look at our run of QB failures, every one has been an overreaction to the faults of the one who came before.

Rob Johnson took forever to make decisions so we traded for...

Drew Bledsoe, who was experienced, but about as swift and agile as a battleship so we drafted...

JP Losman, who was mobile and could escape pressure but couldn't read defenses and so he begat....

Trent Edwards, who had good feet in the pocket and short/medium accuracy, but who flatly refused to throw downfield so we started...

Ryan Fitzpatrick, who is very mobile, brave downfield (to a fault), and good at pre-snap reads but horrendously inaccurate

Did you just call Fitzpatrick very mobile?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Did you just call Fitzpatrick very mobile?

Yes. And he is. He's no Vick, but he's a good scrambler when he needs to be.

[DraftBoy]

Yes. And he is. He's no Vick, but he's a good scrambler when he needs to be.

I'd say he's a half decent escape artist who has above average footwork (though he needs to learn to reset) but that doesn't make him mobile. He buys time very well.

[jdaltroy5]

When did I say that this wasn't the year to take one? There is never going to be a year where any position is a take it no matter what scenario.

Because there are 4-5 legit senior but only 3 have 1st round grades.

You were saying that you should never reach, no matter what the position.

Although I agree that when you reach based on need, you end up with John McCargo and James Hardy. However, I disagree on reaching for a QB.

You pretty much never get "value" for a QB because everyone reaches on them.

It's such a QB driven league now that I think it will be normal to see 4 or 5 QBs taken in the first two rounds even though some teams have a mid round grade on them.

We can't just sit back and pass on a QB just because we don't think the value is there. That's what we've been doing and clearly it's not working.

[DraftBoy]

You were saying that you should never reach, no matter what the position.

Although I agree that when you reach based on need, you end up with John McCargo and James Hardy. However, I disagree on reaching for a QB.

You pretty much never get "value" for a QB because everyone reaches on them.

It's such a QB driven league now that I think it will be normal to see 4 or 5 QBs taken in the first two rounds even though some teams have a mid round grade on them.

We can't just sit back and pass on a QB just because we don't think the value is there. That's what we've been doing and clearly it's not working.

Yes we can, and we should. Trust your scouting reports and don't reach because other teams are doing it. That's why you have them after all. If we see Dysert as a 2nd Round QB, we should not be taking him in the Top 20, not if there is a 1st round grade WR available that also fills a big need.

[Mouldsie]

You guys are arguing over nothing.

If you view a QB as a franchise player you wouldn't grade him in the 2nd round anyway.

And yes you need to take a QB a round earlier than you typically used to because a Top 10 QB is more important than the #1 OT/WR/RB/etc in football.

[jdaltroy5]

Yes we can, and we should. Trust your scouting reports and don't reach because other teams are doing it. That's why you have them after all. If we see Dysert as a 2nd Round QB, we should not be taking him in the Top 20, not if there is a 1st round grade WR available that also fills a big need.
I totally disagree with you, but it just seems like a philosophy difference more than anything.

You can have all the first round WRs you want, but if you don't have a QB that can consistently get them the ball, then it doesn't matter.

[DraftBoy]

I totally disagree with you, but it just seems like a philosophy difference more than anything.

You can have all the first round WRs you want, but if you don't have a QB that can consistently get them the ball, then it doesn't matter.

Which is an argument I never made.

[DraftBoy]

You guys are arguing over nothing.

If you view a QB as a franchise player you wouldn't grade him in the 2nd round anyway.

And yes you need to take a QB a round earlier than you typically used to because a Top 10 QB is more important than the #1 OT/WR/RB/etc in football.

Disagree. Even the greatest QB of all time needs a line to protect him, a player to throw the ball to, and somebody to take handoffs. Are they are important? Outside of LT, no they aren't but lets not embelish the diminished value.

[jdaltroy5]

Which is an argument I never made.
Ok, well let me get this straight then.

You look at your big board and Johnny QB is ranked 20th overall and Tom OT is ranked 7th overall (real original names, I know).

You're picking 14th, who do you take?

[DraftBoy]

Ok, well let me get this straight then.

You look at your big board and Johnny QB is ranked 20th overall and Tom OT is ranked 7th overall (real original names, I know).

You're picking 14th, who do you take?

Assuming need is equal I'm taking Tom OT.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Assuming need is equal I'm taking Tom OT.

But that's what we've been saying. If you don't have a QB or an LT, the needs aren't equal. QB is far and away the more important position. You can always put a TE on the left to help the LT, but you can't hide a bad qb.

[jdaltroy5]

Assuming need is equal I'm taking Tom OT.
This is where our opinions differ greatly. We've had the best OT in the game in Jason Peters and it got us nowhere. The best QB in the game will get you to the playoffs and make you a perennial contender for 10-15 years.

If you don't have an OT and you don't have a QB, then QB is BY FAR a bigger need.

[TigerJ]

I've been knocking guys who have Buffalo picking an offensive tackle in the first round. I think that's just some left over bias from the 2012 draft against Cordy Glenn as a left tackle prospect. If Buffalo doesn't need a tackle, then where are their needs. We can still argue about WR. Graham has made some nice plays, but he hasn't had a huge impact thus far. I think most of us think that linebacker could be upgraded. Beyond that, QB is probably it as far as major needs are concerned that should be addressed in the first round if possible. Most of us would cite QB as the biggest need. So, why would we knock a draft that has the Bills picking a QB. Tyler Wilson has had some struggles tthis season, but Arkansas' coaching situation is a complete mess after the Petrino firing. I think Wilson gets something of a pass for that. It may drop him in the draft and make him a better value for it. The concussion issue is a bit of a concern, but he's certainly a viable option. I wouldn't mind Manuel in the second if Buffalo does't get a QB in the first. I don't know anything about Dysert at this point, but I'm sure I will before next April.

[kingJofNYC]

Yeah, don't know much about Dysert but he's getting buzz, should probably make an effort to watch him play. Wilson is good, I just worry about the concussions, and all the punishment he's taken.

If it was up to me DE/QB/WR, best available from that group. Need LB but I don't think Te'o is a gamebreaker, solid guy that I bet goes late in the first or maybe second. Don't think he has the range to cover, is actually a sloppy tackler, and looks stiff.

It's Rolando McClain all over again with Te'o.

Edit: A lot depends on Levitre/Byrd, key guys on this team, hard to replace.

[jdaltroy5]

I've been knocking guys who have Buffalo picking an offensive tackle in the first round. I think that's just some left over bias from the 2012 draft against Cordy Glenn as a left tackle prospect. If Buffalo doesn't need a tackle, then where are their needs. We can still argue about WR. Graham has made some nice plays, but he hasn't had a huge impact thus far. I think most of us think that linebacker could be upgraded. Beyond that, QB is probably it as far as major needs are concerned that should be addressed in the first round if possible. Most of us would cite QB as the biggest need. So, why would we knock a draft that has the Bills picking a QB. Tyler Wilson has had some struggles tthis season, but Arkansas' coaching situation is a complete mess after the Petrino firing. I think Wilson gets something of a pass for that. It may drop him in the draft and make him a better value for it. The concussion issue is a bit of a concern, but he's certainly a viable option. I wouldn't mind Manuel in the second if Buffalo does't get a QB in the first. I don't know anything about Dysert at this point, but I'm sure I will before next April.

I wasn't knocking the pick. I loved the pick.

I was saying that we need to take a QB no matter what, even if we have to reach.

He just disagreed with the reaching philosophy, that's all.

[DraftBoy]

But that's what we've been saying. If you don't have a QB or an LT, the needs aren't equal. QB is far and away the more important position. You can always put a TE on the left to help the LT, but you can't hide a bad qb.

I disagree, Im not skipping over taking a Top 10 talent at a premium building block position to dip down into a lower tier to take another premium position guy who likely isn't even the best at his poistion. Makes no sense.

- - - Updated - - -


This is where our opinions differ greatly. We've had the best OT in the game in Jason Peters and it got us nowhere. The best QB in the game will get you to the playoffs and make you a perennial contender for 10-15 years.

If you don't have an OT and you don't have a QB, then QB is BY FAR a bigger need.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean you don't take the top rated OT in favor of the third rated QB.

[DraftBoy]

Dysert for those that are curious is an interesting prospect, he's the first prospect in history (I believe) to run for 100 yards and throw for 500 in a single game. He did that on 8/29 v. Akron.

A quick report on him;
Strengths:
-Strong Arm
-Size (6'4, 228 lbs.)
-Three Time Captain (only one in Miami (OH) history)
-Over 10,000 career passing yards
-It Factor

Weaknesses:
-Reading Defenses
-Pocket Presence
-Mechanics (Footwork)
-Pre Snap Reads
-System

Game Notes:
v. Cincy - http://www.miamidolphinsdraft.com/2012/10/2013-nfl-draft-game-notes-cincinnati-vs-miami-oh/

#4 QB Zac Dysert
-Lines up in empty sets throughout most of the game
-Very strong arm, tight spiral, ball tends to dip a lot
-Likes to make a lot of unorthodox throws, extend the plays, very unconventional
-Early in the game surveyed the field quickly, scrambled to the first down marker if he didn’t like any of his reads
-Looks very comfortable in a three-step drop, throws a bullet on a quick slant for the touchdown to finish the first drive
-Comes out into second drive making pre-snap reads, altering the play
-Knows when he wants to run, tucks the ball immediately, great security
-Displays an excellent fake on the draw, acts like he’s throwing a quick pass then sticks the ball in the tailback’s gut
-Makes a bad throw on a five-yard-out, not a strong enough throw to the sidelines, footwork was the reasoning for bad throw; normally has the strength complete that pass–Isn’t flustered after throwing a pick-six, comes out and delivers on a slant
-Refuses to take a sack, either finds a receiver or throws it out of bounds
-Throws an ill-advised pass over the middle, intercepted for the second time on the third drive
-Shows really sloppy footwork, not stepping into this throws, doesn’t have choppy feet when reading through progressions
-Keeps his shoulders squared while rolling out, keeps eyes down the field
-Has a tendency to stare down receivers, a lot of deep balls were tipped
-Executes a pooch-punt to the opponent’s 2-yard line, opens up future 4th down attempts
-With 2:09 left in the first half, scrambles to right, drifts back to pocket and throws an off-balance strike (shoulders squared the whole time) for the touchdown in the back of the end zone
-Takes shotgun snap, looks at first receiver then runs it up the middle for the 2-point conversion, had receivers open on the play
-Struggling to get into a rhythm, midway through the third quarter
-Throws his third interception at the end of the third quarter, careless pass over the middle of the field, comes back and makes the tackle
-Taken out with 6 minutes left in the game, no need to chance injury in a blowout loss

Overview: Quarterback Zac Dysert has drawn a lot of comparisons to another former Red Hawk, Ben Roethlisberger, and rightfully so. He is a gritty quarterback who shows the ability to take hits, survive them, and make acrobatic throws that wow the crowd. Dysert is a dynamic player but still needs to show improvement in order to be successful at the next level. The senior Red Hawk will need to show that: he is comfortable under center, that he can read through progressions and he most importantly needs to fix his footwork (needs to step into throws to get extra zip on the ball). No one is questioning Dysert’s strength, talent or ability to put the team on his back but he will need to fine-tune his mechanics by the NFL Combine. Dysert looks to be a late third-round pick right now and could be a very good starter in the NFL if he is groomed correctly and sits under a veteran; 2 years would be ideal.

Videos:
v. Ohio State
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="506" height="304" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RmMa5Nv2zoI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen allowTransparency="true"></iframe>

v. Boise State
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="506" height="304" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MnHDHOKjQ8Y?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen allowTransparency="true"></iframe>

Video curtosey of Draft Breakdown

[jdaltroy5]

Agreed, but that doesn't mean you don't take the top rated OT in favor of the third rated QB.
I couldn't disagree with you more. There's not much difference between a top 5 OT in the league and an average one.

There is HUGE difference between a top 5 QB in the league and an average one.

Our record didn't change the slightest when we went from having the best OT in the league to a 7th round injury prone rookie.

The Saints went from bottom feeders to Super Bowl champs when they signed Brees. The Falcons are perennial contenders after they drafted Ryan. The Colts were one of the best teams in the league for over a decade because of Manning. The Patriots are a threat to win the Super Bowl every year because of Brady.

I could go on, but you get my point.

No one thinks, "Oh darn, the Browns drafted Joe Thomas. The division just got really tough!"

If they're worried about getting full value for their pick, then they're never going to get a franchise QB unless they draft first overall.

Guys like Kapper and Dalton are going at the beginning of the second round when they have a mid round grade on them. That's going to happen every year, so if we refuse to draft a guy too high, we're going to continue to end up with guys like Levi Brown.

Great value, but unfortunately, he was like the 20th ranked QB in the draft that year and he's out of the league now.

[kingJofNYC]

Good QB can hide OL deficiencies, but it's nice to have a good OL.

In recent years, some of the SB winners have rolled out complete **** at LT. Doesn't mean you don't need an OT, just that a good QB, with great pocket presence and ability to move within the pocket, can hide the flaws in most OL.

Bushrod is a turd, yet he's manning the blindside for Brees. Diehl isn't much better at OT.

[jdaltroy5]

Good QB can hide OL deficiencies, but it's nice to have a good OL.

In recent years, some of the SB winners have rolled out complete **** at LT. Doesn't mean you don't need an OT, just that a good QB, with great pocket presence and ability to move within the pocket, can hide the flaws in most OL.

Bushrod is a turd, yet he's manning the blindside for Brees. Diehl isn't much better at OT.

At the end of the day, if there's a QB available and you think he has the potential to be your guy for a decade, then you throw out your draft board and take the QB.

[coastal]

Here's the other thing... We should take two QBs in our first four picks.

[DraftBoy]

I couldn't disagree with you more. There's not much difference between a top 5 OT in the league and an average one.

I couldn't read anymore past this statement.

[DraftBoy]

Good QB can hide OL deficiencies, but it's nice to have a good OL.

In recent years, some of the SB winners have rolled out complete **** at LT. Doesn't mean you don't need an OT, just that a good QB, with great pocket presence and ability to move within the pocket, can hide the flaws in most OL.

Bushrod is a turd, yet he's manning the blindside for Brees. Diehl isn't much better at OT.

Sure but that's not what we're talking about. They are advocating taking a QB (measure of ability does not matter) simply to do so. Geno Smith, Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Matt Barkley could all go in the top 10 and they would still take EJ Manuel (per their logic) just to take one. You're talking about dipping into the 2nd tier of talent because we have a need and by doing so ignoring top tier talent at another need. I will never ever support that line of logic, I dont care how bad the QB situation gets.

[kingJofNYC]

Sure but that's not what we're talking about. They are advocating taking a QB (measure of ability does not matter) simply to do so. Geno Smith, Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Matt Barkley could all go in the top 10 and they would still take EJ Manuel (per their logic) just to take one. You're talking about dipping into the 2nd tier of talent because we have a need and by doing so ignoring top tier talent at another need. I will never ever support that line of logic, I dont care how bad the QB situation gets.

No, I understand, this is what's gotten the franchise into trouble in the past. Prioritizing need over everything else.

We need a QB, but if we draft the wrong one it won't matter a bit. A good QB can cover up a lot of holes, but a bad one just exposes more.

[DraftBoy]

No, I understand, this is what's gotten the franchise into trouble in the past. Prioritizing need over everything else.

We need a QB, but if we draft the wrong one it won't matter a bit. A good QB can cover up a lot of holes, but a bad one just exposes more.

Yup. Do you due diligence and trust your evals, otherwise there is no point.

[jdaltroy5]

Sure but that's not what we're talking about. They are advocating taking a QB (measure of ability does not matter) simply to do so. Geno Smith, Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Matt Barkley could all go in the top 10 and they would still take EJ Manuel (per their logic) just to take one. You're talking about dipping into the 2nd tier of talent because we have a need and by doing so ignoring top tier talent at another need. I will never ever support that line of logic, I dont care how bad the QB situation gets.

No that's not what I said.

I said if you think the guy has the potential to be your starter for ten years (even if he's 4th or 5th best QB) then you forget about everything else and take him. I don't care if the best LT is still on the board.

If you're staring down the barrel at Colt McCoy, Tim Tebow, and Jimmy Clausen, then maybe take a pass and go BPA.

[jdaltroy5]

I couldn't read anymore past this statement.
Well maybe you should've.

Here are some more facts for you. Source:https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

Statistically, the best OTs last year were:

1) Harvey Dahl - 3%
2) Joe Thomas - 3.2%
3) Andrew Whitworth - 3.4%
4) David Stewart - 3.5%
5) Jason Peters - 3.7%

Those stats beside the players indicate the percentage of pressure they allowed per snap.

Now below are the OTs ranked 16-20.

16) Andre Smith - 5.4%
17) Erik Pears - 5.6%
18) Michael Roos - 5.7%
19) Zack Strief - 5.8%
20) Matt Light - 5.8%

So an average player gives up less than double the amount of pressure than the best OTs in the game. Say the average team throws it 30 times a game, the best OTs are going to give up one pressure and an average one is going to give up less than two.

But there's more to being an OT than just pass protection right?

Now let's look at run blocking stats: (Source:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2011)
These stats use football outsiders adjusted line yards which take into account down and distance, position, etc...

New Orleans was the best team in the league running behind left end and left tackle. They averaged just over 5.5 YPC.

The average team was about 4.2 YPC behind the same two holes. Here's the thing though, the average team only runs to the left 25% of the time. The team that ran the most to the left side was Cinci with 142 runs to the left.

So if you take the BEST team running to the left and give them the most amount of runs that way over an entire season, you know what you got?

An extra 11.5 yards per game.

So take your dream scenario and say you draft the best OT and he turns into the best run blocker AND pass blocker. You know what you have? A guy that gets you one less pressure and an extra 12 yards per game.

Do you know what a top QB gets you?

[DraftBoy]

Well maybe you should've.

Here are some more facts for you. Source:https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

Statistically, the best OTs last year were:

1) Harvey Dahl - 3%
2) Joe Thomas - 3.2%
3) Andrew Whitworth - 3.4%
4) David Stewart - 3.5%
5) Jason Peters - 3.7%

Those stats beside the players indicate the percentage of pressure they allowed per snap.

Now below are the OTs ranked 16-20.

16) Andre Smith - 5.4%
17) Erik Pears - 5.6%
18) Michael Roos - 5.7%
19) Zack Strief - 5.8%
20) Matt Light - 5.8%

So an average player gives up less than double the amount of pressure than the best OTs in the game. Say the average team throws it 30 times a game, the best OTs are going to give up one pressure and an average one is going to give up less than two.

But there's more to being an OT than just pass protection right?

Now let's look at run blocking stats: (Source:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2011)
These stats use football outsiders adjusted line yards which take into account down and distance, position, etc...

New Orleans was the best team in the league running behind left end and left tackle. They averaged just over 5.5 YPC.

The average team was about 4.2 YPC behind the same two holes. Here's the thing though, the average team only runs to the left 25% of the time. The team that ran the most to the left side was Cinci with 142 runs to the left.

So if you take the BEST team running to the left and give them the most amount of runs that way over an entire season, you know what you got?

An extra 11.5 yards per game.

So take your dream scenario and say you draft the best OT and he turns into the best run blocker AND pass blocker. You know what you have? A guy that gets you one less pressure and an extra 12 yards per game.

Do you know what a top QB gets you?

Yea I dont buy into analytics.

[jdaltroy5]

Yea I dont buy into analytics.

Well that's convenient.

Forget about facts, just trust my opinion.

[kingJofNYC]

Love the numbers to be honest.

I think we all agree that we need a QB, hopefully the front office evaluates the QBs correctly and we end up with the next Roethlisberger and not Losman. All they had to do was trade up with the Jags....

[TigerJ]

I wasn't knocking the pick. I loved the pick.

I was saying that we need to take a QB no matter what, even if we have to reach.

He just disagreed with the reaching philosophy, that's all.

Sorry, but I wasn't reacting to your posts at all. I couldn't even tell you when I posted initially in this thread what you had said. I was reacting to the numerous mock drafts I've seen through the first few weeks of the season that projected the Bills taking an offensive tackle. Some of them even commented to the effect that the Bills are going to learn that Cordy Glenn doesn't have the feet to play left tackle and would have to move him to guard. I don't think that's happening, and I think Christ Hairston's play is demonstrating that the Bills have some quality depth at the position too. And we don't know what Zebrie Sanders might be able to do down the road.

[Mouldsie]

Yup. Do you due diligence and trust your evals, otherwise there is no point.


I loved Matt Schaub over JP Losman in 2004. Schaub went 3rd round ultimately and most experts pegged him around there or lower anyway. Would it have been dumb to draft him in round 2? Jake Grove and Bob Sanders are on the board....

[DraftBoy]

Well that's convenient.

Forget about facts, just trust my opinion.

Well what you posted isn't necessarily fact, its just opinion. PFF doesn't use coaches film to break down games and while what they do is interesting and good for some basic comparative analysis its hardly fact. Same with FO and I know stat heads will disagree but numbers never tell the whole story.

[DraftBoy]

I loved Matt Schaub over JP Losman in 2004. Schaub went 3rd round ultimately and most experts pegged him around there or lower anyway. Would it have been dumb to draft him in round 2? Jake Grove and Bob Sanders are on the board....

I dont think we had a 2nd Round pick in 2004, but based on most teams and available evals yes. You can play the 20/20 game all night long, and the best example will always be Brady. Sometimes teams miss on a player, that's usually evident when all 32 pass a couple of times indicating the players value at that time didn't measure up to what he did in the future. Unfortunately we don't have the luxury come April.

[jdaltroy5]

Sorry, but I wasn't reacting to your posts at all. I couldn't even tell you when I posted initially in this thread what you had said. I was reacting to the numerous mock drafts I've seen through the first few weeks of the season that projected the Bills taking an offensive tackle. Some of them even commented to the effect that the Bills are going to learn that Cordy Glenn doesn't have the feet to play left tackle and would have to move him to guard. I don't think that's happening, and I think Christ Hairston's play is demonstrating that the Bills have some quality depth at the position too. And we don't know what Zebrie Sanders might be able to do down the road.

Gotcha. I'm with you on that. If they take an OT in the first round, then I will have lost all faith in Nix.

Cordy Glenn has looked absolutely dominating at times. He's ALREADY better than most of the OTs that were taken in the first 10 picks over the last couple of years.

I've already stressed how much I think we should take a QB, but for whatever reason if Nix doesn't like any of them, I'd like to see us go with a LB or WR.

[jdaltroy5]

Well what you posted isn't necessarily fact, its just opinion. PFF doesn't use coaches film to break down games and while what they do is interesting and good for some basic comparative analysis its hardly fact. Same with FO and I know stat heads will disagree but numbers never tell the whole story.

No, numbers don't tell the whole story and there is interpretation involved. However, what I broke down was actual fact and was giving you a best case scenario.

There is no position in the game that can change a franchise like the QB position can.

The Eagles lost the best LT in the game and replaced him with our oft injured 7th rounder and guess what? Their record is the same as last year.

When has a team drafted a LT and then became a force for a decade because of that player?

Hell when has a team drafted ANY player besides a QB and become a force for a decade because of that player?

I know I don't need to tell you this, but the QB position is so much more important than any other position that it is vital to put everything else on hold and find one if you want to have a chance at sustained success.

They can keep taking BPA all they want, but this team will never be successful for an extended period of time unless they sack up and reach on a QB.

The approach they're taking CLEARLY isn't working.

[stuckincincy]

Yea I dont buy into analytics.

I'd buy into CIN's incessant runs to the left. It's been going on for years, championed by former OC Bratkowski and now - unfortunately - Gruden. It's a standing joke in the CIN area, and 31 other clubs use it to splatter their run game. Year after year, CIN's 1st play was a deep handoff left. Also, a favored play on 3rd and short...CIN is at the bottom of the barrel in 3rd down conversions; familiar territory for them.

[TigerJ]

Gotcha. I'm with you on that. If they take an OT in the first round, then I will have lost all faith in Nix.

Cordy Glenn has looked absolutely dominating at times. He's ALREADY better than most of the OTs that were taken in the first 10 picks over the last couple of years.

I've already stressed how much I think we should take a QB, but for whatever reason if Nix doesn't like any of them, I'd like to see us go with a LB or WR. I think we're pretty much on the same page. QB is the most glaring need right now IMO. I'm not sure that linebacker and WR will turn out to be huge needs at the end of the season. I think the limited productivity from our WRs right now has more to do with our quarterbacking than the receivers themselves, but I don't know that those positions AREN'T major needs either.

[jdaltroy5]

I think we're pretty much on the same page. QB is the most glaring need right now IMO. I'm not sure that linebacker and WR will turn out to be huge needs at the end of the season. I think the limited productivity from our WRs right now has more to do with our quarterbacking than the receivers themselves, but I don't know that those positions AREN'T major needs either.

Next to QB, LB is our next huge flaw. We really need a guy that can fight through blocks and get to the ball. A guy that can be a vocal leader and won't roll over at the first sign of adversity.

I thought Sheppard was going to be that guy, but he's disappointed me a bit so far. Barnett is starting to lose it a bit and I don't know how much longer we can trust him to be reliable. The rest of the guys are mid/late rounders, converted safeties and other team's castoffs. We are really thin at LB.

I know Fitz is a huge problem, but I still don't think our WRs are that great. They aren't as bad as some people make them out to be, but we could definitely stand to improve. If there's a Dez Bryant or Michael Crabtree that has somehow fallen, I'd be ok with jumping on that (provided Nix hates all the QBs remaining).

[DraftBoy]

Next to QB, LB is our next huge flaw. We really need a guy that can fight through blocks and get to the ball. A guy that can be a vocal leader and won't roll over at the first sign of adversity.

I thought Sheppard was going to be that guy, but he's disappointed me a bit so far. Barnett is starting to lose it a bit and I don't know how much longer we can trust him to be reliable. The rest of the guys are mid/late rounders, converted safeties and other team's castoffs. We are really thin at LB.

I know Fitz is a huge problem, but I still don't think our WRs are that great. They aren't as bad as some people make them out to be, but we could definitely stand to improve. If there's a Dez Bryant or Michael Crabtree that has somehow fallen, I'd be ok with jumping on that (provided Nix hates all the QBs remaining).

QB, WR, and LB are our top needs by far we agree there. Id also like to add DL and OL depth and at some point we have to address SAF.

[jdaltroy5]

QB, WR, and LB are our top needs by far we agree there. Id also like to add DL and OL depth and at some point we have to address SAF.
Well that's why I disagree with the BPA approach.

If the BPA is a RB, DT, C, or LT, then it makes absolutely zero sense to take one.

I'm all for taking BPA at a position of need, but I think that the QB position is such a huge and glaring need and it's so crucial to a team's success that we just can't ignore it anymore.

[DraftBoy]

Well that's why I disagree with the BPA approach.

If the BPA is a RB, DT, C, or LT, then it makes absolutely zero sense to take one.

I'm all for taking BPA at a position of need, but I think that the QB position is such a huge and glaring need and it's so crucial to a team's success that we just can't ignore it anymore.

I could make a case we have needs at each one of those positions, but I do agree you don't go straight BPA and I don't advocate that. What I've said is you maximize value which means taking BPA at a position that can be useful to you.

[jdaltroy5]

I could make a case we have needs at each one of those positions, but I do agree you don't go straight BPA and I don't advocate that. What I've said is you maximize value which means taking BPA at a position that can be useful to you.

And I agree, but I think QB is so much more useful than any other position, that it's crucial to have a good one if you want any kind of sustained success.

[DraftBoy]

And I agree, but I think QB is so much more useful than any other position, that it's crucial to have a good one if you want any kind of sustained success.

And again we agree on this, but where we disagree on this is that you support sacrificing value to get the QB, and I don't.

[jdaltroy5]

And again we agree on this, but where we disagree on this is that you support sacrificing value to get the QB, and I don't.
Well obviously, that's what we've been talking about over the last 5 pages.

I support sacrificing value, because I think that's something that needs to be done in order to get a QB.

It is very rare that you'll have a QB that falls to you and represents fair value. Those guys are ALWAYS drafted before you expect them to be.

If we just wait around and hope a QB falls to us, then we're going to be waiting quite a long time.

[DraftBoy]

Well obviously, that's what we've been talking about over the last 5 pages.

I support sacrificing value, because I think that's something that needs to be done in order to get a QB.

It is very rare that you'll have a QB that falls to you and represents fair value. Those guys are ALWAYS drafted before you expect them to be.

If we just wait around and hope a QB falls to us, then we're going to be waiting quite a long time.

Im ok with that, I would prefer to form a team like the Ravens did then waste picks just to take a QB. That's not to say Dilfer wasn't good that year either, and I realize that's the exception and not the rule, but I think its an exception that can be duplicated.

[jdaltroy5]

Im ok with that, I would prefer to form a team like the Ravens did then waste picks just to take a QB. That's not to say Dilfer wasn't good that year either, and I realize that's the exception and not the rule, but I think its an exception that can be duplicated.

But that's such a hard thing to try to duplicate. You have to hit on at least 5 picks AND get a good DC to be able to make that work.

It's very rare that a team can just win on defense alone with a game manager QB. You're far more likely to be successful by getting a QB and then filling in the pieces around him.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Im ok with that, I would prefer to form a team like the Ravens did then waste picks just to take a QB. That's not to say Dilfer wasn't good that year either, and I realize that's the exception and not the rule, but I think its an exception that can be duplicated.

They have two guaranteed hall of famers on that defense and a few other All-Pros in their starting roster. That is an extremely high bar to clear.

[ServoBillieves]

Well that's why I disagree with the BPA approach.

If the BPA is a RB, DT, C, or LT, then it makes absolutely zero sense to take one.

I'm all for taking BPA at a position of need, but I think that the QB position is such a huge and glaring need and it's so crucial to a team's success that we just can't ignore it anymore.

DT? But remember, SI said that Marcel is the worst starting DT in the NFL! Let's draft another!

[DraftBoy]

But that's such a hard thing to try to duplicate. You have to hit on at least 5 picks AND get a good DC to be able to make that work.

It's very rare that a team can just win on defense alone with a game manager QB. You're far more likely to be successful by getting a QB and then filling in the pieces around him.

Yes and no, the key isn't the picks though. Its the Front Office, the Ravens were able to build what they built because from top to bottom their front office is top notch. They are the model of how you run a draft and how you scout. Thorough, analytical, and rarely wavering from philosophy. By following the Ravens model the first thing Id do is bring in DeCosta to run this team.

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They have two guaranteed hall of famers on that defense and a few other All-Pros in their starting roster. That is an extremely high bar to clear.

We had a defense like that before.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

We had a defense like that before.

What era are you referring to? Considering we've only produced one defensive HOF player in our franchise history, we're at least one step behind on that score.

[dannyek71]

Good. This reminds me why I stopped coming to this forum.

[Mouldsie]

I dont think we had a 2nd Round pick in 2004, but based on most teams and available evals yes. You can play the 20/20 game all night long, and the best example will always be Brady. Sometimes teams miss on a player, that's usually evident when all 32 pass a couple of times indicating the players value at that time didn't measure up to what he did in the future. Unfortunately we don't have the luxury come April.
We didnt have a pick because we traded it to move up and get JP


:'(

[DraftBoy]

What era are you referring to? Considering we've only produced one defensive HOF player in our franchise history, we're at least one step behind on that score.

The DB era, I expect us to get another HOF off the D before all is said and done.

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Good. This reminds me why I stopped coming to this forum.

Welcome...I think?

[kishoph]

Dysert for those that are curious is an interesting prospect, he's the first prospect in history (I believe) to run for 100 yards and throw for 500 in a single game. He did that on 8/29 v. Akron.

A quick report on him;
Strengths:
-Strong Arm
-Size (6'4, 228 lbs.)
-Three Time Captain (only one in Miami (OH) history)
-Over 10,000 career passing yards
-It Factor

Weaknesses:
-Reading Defenses
-Pocket Presence
-Mechanics (Footwork)
-Pre Snap Reads
-System



For anyone in the Buffalo area that is interested in seeing Zac Dysert, he'll be taking on the UB Bulls on November 3rd @ UB Stadium (tickets are pretty cheap). I'm looking forward to seeing him live, he has been rated as high as the 4th best prospect (I don't agree), but has dropped (6th ?) and still is looked at as a capable NFL starting QB.