X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

[X-Era]

I'd like to see a technical discussion on why our defense is failing.

Specifically:

1. why do TE's have so much success?
2. Why did Welker do so well?
3. Why does it seem the flats, seems, and intermediate routes are always open?
4. Why does it seem that the 3rd down conversions are again a big problem?
5. Why does this 4-3 seem to suffer from much of the same issues we had with Jauron's Cover 2 4-3? Compare/contrast.
6. Where are the weaknesses of this defense? Or where are we failing to execute it? Not calling out individuals but where are the breakdowns?
7. Without naming names, can you identify, after diagramming it, what type of player we need to properly execute this defense or that position? What attributes should the ideal fit have?

I know some of you are real good at the X's and O's, I'd love to see some technical breakdown. We know about individual mistakes, coaching, etc... Let's keep off that topic, there's plenty of other threads for that.

**** Please keep that stuff out of this thread.

ZB's to anyone who includes diagrams. Extra ZB's to anyone who can depict the breakdowns on a diagram. It'll be my discretion on the worth of course. Lol.

Let's see what ya got... Break it down for us.

[Oaf]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.



ZBs or Paypal ok

[better days]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Well, I heard Mark Kelso on The John Murphy show the other day & he said he could only guess about what was going on because he did not know the specific defense called & did not know who was responsible for what. Therefore anyone that says they know what is going on is just full of BS IMO.

[Ingtar33]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Why do TE's have so much success?
physical mismatch, our LBers aren't physically able to cover them, our safeties are too small... same problem most teams have with good TE (we're not the only team who struggles with them)

Why did Welker do so well?
He destroys many teams, not just buffalo. To cover Welker you need someone able to play him in press coverage AND keep up. OR you need to clog the passing lanes with your defensive line and force Brady to look somewhere else. One is personnel the other is great coaching.

Why does it seem the flats, seems, and intermediate routes are always open?
This year it's because our DBs and LBers pretty much suck. If the DBs aren't being too agressive and biting on double moves, they're screwing up the coverage calls, or running into eachother. The LBers who should be getting into the passing lanes and taking away the underneeth stuff are 3 steps behind on their reads, and out of position so much in the passing game we effectively have no underneath coverage.

Why does it seem that the 3rd down conversions are again a big problem?
Read the above clutter of problems, combined with an inconsistent or nonexistent passrush it's pretty easy for most teams to pick up 5-8 yards without breakign a sweat. When the coverages really break down (which happens probably every third pass, which is shockingly bad) those 5-8 yard passes can go for 15 or so yards... and when you miss a tackle or two (which happens every other play it seems) those 15 yards can stretch for another 5-10 yards. And that's not even taking into account all the open deep routs that open up when the DL fails to generate a passrush.

Why does this 4-3 seem to suffer from much of the same issues we had with Jauron's Cover 2 4-3? Compare/contrast.
Both suck at rushing the passer... and both need a solid (consistent) passrush... both suck at runstopping, and when you can't stop the run, it becomes really hard to stop a short/medium passing game... because the LBers will bite on every play action or misdirection you will throw at them.

Where are the weaknesses of this defense? Or where are we failing to execute it? Not calling out individuals but where are the breakdowns?
It would be easier to mention the guys doing their jobs... (that's right, no one comes to mind)... Kyle Williams has shaken off whatever that funk was at the start of the season, and is playing lights out now... outside of Williams no one is standing out as even coming close to doing their job. I suppose Byrd has looked good the last 3 weeks, but he was just as bad as the rest earlier in the season. (its no coincidence he's looked better this year, he's a cover 2 safety, he's being asked to do a lot of that this year, so he's more comfortable then he was with Edwards as DC, who wanted him closer to the line, and asked him to play more man). After that everyone should be ashamed of themselves.

Without naming names, can you identify, after diagramming it, what type of player we need to properly execute this defense or that position? What attributes should the ideal fit have? Someone who cares and someone with some years in this league. most of the problems remind me of what you get in college with too many freshmen in your lineup. Too many inexperienced guys, being asked to do too much too soon. Worse, the guys who know better, the vets, aren't giving 100%, and as a result are not leading by example. This defense has a shocking lack of quality leadership. No accountability. If I were the Bills GM, I would aim at bringing in mid level FAs at all positions on the defense, all of whom are older, and well regarded in their locker-rooms. we don't need stars to fix this, unlike with Jauron where we clearly had a lack of talent, I'm not seeing an obvious physical mismatch on the field (except at LB, where we remain pretty mediocre talent wise)... what we need are successful vets. Professionals, with strong work ethics and good personalities. Players who could challenge for starting spots (guys like Drayton Florence). We also need 1 player (rookie/vet/whomever) at linebacker who bleeds red, white and blue, to be the QB of that defense. Trick is those guys are hard to find...

[BertSquirtgum]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Poz was ready to be the qb of the defense. It's too bad he just sucked.

[kishoph]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Poz was ready to be the qb of the defense. It's too bad he just sucked.

Yea, he's gonna have another sucky year in Jacksonville were he'll get 120+ tackles, close to 10 passes defensed and a couple of interceptions, so glad he's off the team and we have Kelvin Sheppard at MLB.

[X-Era]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Why do TE's have so much success?
physical mismatch, our LBers aren't physically able to cover them, our safeties are too small... same problem most teams have with good TE (we're not the only team who struggles with them)

Why did Welker do so well?
He destroys many teams, not just buffalo. To cover Welker you need someone able to play him in press coverage AND keep up. OR you need to clog the passing lanes with your defensive line and force Brady to look somewhere else. One is personnel the other is great coaching.

Why does it seem the flats, seems, and intermediate routes are always open?
This year it's because our DBs and LBers pretty much suck. If the DBs aren't being too agressive and biting on double moves, they're screwing up the coverage calls, or running into eachother. The LBers who should be getting into the passing lanes and taking away the underneeth stuff are 3 steps behind on their reads, and out of position so much in the passing game we effectively have no underneath coverage.

Why does it seem that the 3rd down conversions are again a big problem?
Read the above clutter of problems, combined with an inconsistent or nonexistent passrush it's pretty easy for most teams to pick up 5-8 yards without breakign a sweat. When the coverages really break down (which happens probably every third pass, which is shockingly bad) those 5-8 yard passes can go for 15 or so yards... and when you miss a tackle or two (which happens every other play it seems) those 15 yards can stretch for another 5-10 yards. And that's not even taking into account all the open deep routs that open up when the DL fails to generate a passrush.

Why does this 4-3 seem to suffer from much of the same issues we had with Jauron's Cover 2 4-3? Compare/contrast.
Both suck at rushing the passer... and both need a solid (consistent) passrush... both suck at runstopping, and when you can't stop the run, it becomes really hard to stop a short/medium passing game... because the LBers will bite on every play action or misdirection you will throw at them.

Where are the weaknesses of this defense? Or where are we failing to execute it? Not calling out individuals but where are the breakdowns?
It would be easier to mention the guys doing their jobs... (that's right, no one comes to mind)... Kyle Williams has shaken off whatever that funk was at the start of the season, and is playing lights out now... outside of Williams no one is standing out as even coming close to doing their job. I suppose Byrd has looked good the last 3 weeks, but he was just as bad as the rest earlier in the season. (its no coincidence he's looked better this year, he's a cover 2 safety, he's being asked to do a lot of that this year, so he's more comfortable then he was with Edwards as DC, who wanted him closer to the line, and asked him to play more man). After that everyone should be ashamed of themselves.

Without naming names, can you identify, after diagramming it, what type of player we need to properly execute this defense or that position? What attributes should the ideal fit have? Someone who cares and someone with some years in this league. most of the problems remind me of what you get in college with too many freshmen in your lineup. Too many inexperienced guys, being asked to do too much too soon. Worse, the guys who know better, the vets, aren't giving 100%, and as a result are not leading by example. This defense has a shocking lack of quality leadership. No accountability. If I were the Bills GM, I would aim at bringing in mid level FAs at all positions on the defense, all of whom are older, and well regarded in their locker-rooms. we don't need stars to fix this, unlike with Jauron where we clearly had a lack of talent, I'm not seeing an obvious physical mismatch on the field (except at LB, where we remain pretty mediocre talent wise)... what we need are successful vets. Professionals, with strong work ethics and good personalities. Players who could challenge for starting spots (guys like Drayton Florence). We also need 1 player (rookie/vet/whomever) at linebacker who bleeds red, white and blue, to be the QB of that defense. Trick is those guys are hard to find...

You were the first person I thought of on this. I'll give you 5K for this one.

[X-Era]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Here's a diagram. Right click and save to your desktop to modify and post your own.

4-3defense_crop_650.jpg

[coastal]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

The problems with this team doesn't boil down to X's and O's.

its much worse than that.

sorry... But mostly a pointless thread.

[Extremebillsfan247]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

I'd like to see a technical discussion on why our defense is failing.

Specifically:

1. why do TE's have so much success?
2. Why did Welker do so well?
3. Why does it seem the flats, seems, and intermediate routes are always open?
4. Why does it seem that the 3rd down conversions are again a big problem?
5. Why does this 4-3 seem to suffer from much of the same issues we had with Jauron's Cover 2 4-3? Compare/contrast.
6. Where are the weaknesses of this defense? Or where are we failing to execute it? Not calling out individuals but where are the breakdowns?
7. Without naming names, can you identify, after diagramming it, what type of player we need to properly execute this defense or that position? What attributes should the ideal fit have?

I know some of you are real good at the X's and O's, I'd love to see some technical breakdown. We know about individual mistakes, coaching, etc... Let's keep off that topic, there's plenty of other threads for that.

**** Please keep that stuff out of this thread.

ZB's to anyone who includes diagrams. Extra ZB's to anyone who can depict the breakdowns on a diagram. It'll be my discretion on the worth of course. Lol.

Let's see what ya got... Break it down for us.

Actually, Coach Sal is really good at this kind of thing as far as breaking down the X's and O's of it all. I can give descriptions based on what I see, and how it relates to what I've seen over the past 30 plus years or so of watching the game.

So, with that being said, I'll touch on a couple of things.
First, Jauron's defense was built differently. It was smaller, quicker, and the secondary was light years better than this one. The problem with that defense was that it was too small, and players were often getting injured because of it. This made it tougher for them to stay consistent.

This current defense is bigger up front, slower at the linebacker position, and lack a strong veteran presence in the secondary. That I think is the core of it all. Our linebackers are too slow to keep up, and our corner backs are getting exposed as simply not being experienced enough to handle what's being thrown at them. That's my opinion.

[ServoBillieves]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

See there's a problem with the diagram and simply going by ><'s (this thread is going to be incredibly hard to respond to with a busted >< key...) and O's.

We keep hearing about the base 4-3 defense. How many times have you seen Barnett, Sheppard, and Moats on the field at the same time? Our "base d" consists of 4 down linemen and either 5 or 6 DB's. Putting Bryan Scott at LB seemed like a fantastic idea until we all realized that he was still just a safety.

I'll post a play that has been tearing us apart recently once I draw it up, but even as coastal said, it goes far deeper than simple chalk.

[DraftBoy]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Here's a diagram. Right click and save to your desktop to modify and post your own.

[ATTACH]15967[/ATTACH]

Just to not that 43 alignment is not one we run often. Our NT in this would be Dareus but he's farther shaded to the inside shoudler of the RG than to the outside of the OC. Which is important to differentiate since we run our DE's upfield and rely on our DT's to control the middle. In the alignment above the split between NT and LE is so large any scheme calling for the big upfield rush that we've seen Mario do would leave only the WLB as the fill man with a lot of space for a RB to get into.

[X-Era]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

Just to not that 43 alignment is not one we run often. Our NT in this would be Dareus but he's farther shaded to the inside shoudler of the RG than to the outside of the OC. Which is important to differentiate since we run our DE's upfield and rely on our DT's to control the middle. In the alignment above the split between NT and LE is so large any scheme calling for the big upfield rush that we've seen Mario do would leave only the WLB as the fill man with a lot of space for a RB to get into.

5K for this response.

I'd like to see it though. I'm working on one that shows what I think is happening. But, I admit that Im not as familiar with playcalling and schemes.

- - - Updated - - -

See there's a problem with the diagram and simply going by ><'s (this thread is going to be incredibly hard to respond to with a busted >< key...) and O's.

We keep hearing about the base 4-3 defense. How many times have you seen Barnett, Sheppard, and Moats on the field at the same time? Our "base d" consists of 4 down linemen and either 5 or 6 DB's. Putting Bryan Scott at LB seemed like a fantastic idea until we all realized that he was still just a safety.

I'll post a play that has been tearing us apart recently once I draw it up, but even as coastal said, it goes far deeper than simple chalk.

Isn't Scott on the field because the O is running a spread and we counter with the Nickel?

[X-Era]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

See there's a problem with the diagram and simply going by ><'s (this thread is going to be incredibly hard to respond to with a busted >< key...) and O's.

We keep hearing about the base 4-3 defense. How many times have you seen Barnett, Sheppard, and Moats on the field at the same time? Our "base d" consists of 4 down linemen and either 5 or 6 DB's. Putting Bryan Scott at LB seemed like a fantastic idea until we all realized that he was still just a safety.

I'll post a play that has been tearing us apart recently once I draw it up, but even as coastal said, it goes far deeper than simple chalk.

Yeah, it's juts one diagram. I'm sure there's lot's of line-up's.

[Ed]

Re: X's and O's... Show us some chalk talk. Prove you know football.

untitled.JPG

5k please.