2011 Draft... Interesting

[Mahdi]

Just looking over the first round of the draft at this point in time its kind of annoying that we end up with Dareus when guys like:

Watt - PB
Kerrigan - Impact player
AJ Green - PB
Patrick Peterson - Impact player - PB as returner
Julio Jones - Impact player
Aldon Smith - Should have been in PB - 23.5 sacks to date
Nick Fairley - Impact player
Robert Quinn - Impact player - 13.5 sacks to date
Adrian Clayborn - Impact player
Cameron Jordan - Impact player
Phil Taylor - Impact player

I think its interesting because every year we get caught up in what position should be drafted instead of who is worthy of the value of draft position.

When you look at Dareus now, he is what we thought he was, a high floor -- low ceiling player while it seems many of the players picked in the first round around him have passed him in terms of current value.

I hope in our next draft fans will forget about the position of the player and focus only on who deserves to be selected in that spot. Even if we draft another CB I will support it if its determined he is the best player available.

[Skooby]

Dareus is young, so I'd step away from the ledge until we see another year or so under his belt.

[Mahdi]

Dareus is young, so I'd step away from the ledge until we see another year or so under his belt.

ummm they're all young... and... how am I "on the ledge"? I'm bringing up a topic...

[Ed]

If the Bills had passed on Dareus and taken JJ Watt #3 overall, everyone on this board would have lost their minds.

[Joe Fo Sho]

At least we didn't draft Blaine Gabbert.

[Mahdi]

If the Bills had passed on Dareus and taken JJ Watt #3 overall, everyone on this board would have lost their minds.

Would have been temporary insanity...

[GingerP]

If the Bills had passed on Dareus and taken JJ Watt #3 overall, everyone on this board would have lost their minds.

I think they would have gotten over it. Imagine Watt and Kyle Williams playing together?

[Bill Cody]

If the Bills had passed on Dareus and taken JJ Watt #3 overall, everyone on this board would have lost their minds.

So true. The irony is the one time a white DE is any good we don't draft him

[DraftBoy]

Im failing to see what the issue is. Dareus is an impact player.

[SquishDaFish]

i dont see a problem witg dareus. this is one dtaft that i cant argue with. now look at the others and you can do this

[Mahdi]

Im failing to see what the issue is. Dareus is an impact player.

No he is not an impact player. He has had good games only against a couple of weak teams. Otherwise he hasn't shown up. He is also infrequently seen in the backfield.

Not saying he sucks but he certainly has not had the same impact the others are having.

[X-Era]

Just looking over the first round of the draft at this point in time its kind of annoying that we end up with Dareus when guys like:

Watt - PB
Kerrigan - Impact player
AJ Green - PB
Patrick Peterson - Impact player - PB as returner
Julio Jones - Impact player
Aldon Smith - Should have been in PB - 23.5 sacks to date
Nick Fairley - Impact player
Robert Quinn - Impact player - 13.5 sacks to date
Adrian Clayborn - Impact player
Cameron Jordan - Impact player
Phil Taylor - Impact player

I think its interesting because every year we get caught up in what position should be drafted instead of who is worthy of the value of draft position.

When you look at Dareus now, he is what we thought he was, a high floor -- low ceiling player while it seems many of the players picked in the first round around him have passed him in terms of current value.

I hope in our next draft fans will forget about the position of the player and focus only on who deserves to be selected in that spot. Even if we draft another CB I will support it if its determined he is the best player available.
Fairley, and Jordan are not impact players IMO.

Fairley has never impressed me. He had 1 sack and 15 tackles in 10 games last year. Dareus had 43 tackles and 5.5 sacks along with 1 fumble recovery, 2 passes defended, and 4 stuffs
Dareus is way better than Fairley.
Jordan had 31 tackles an 1 sack
Clayborn had 42 tackles 7.5 sacks and 3 forced fumbles

[better days]

No he is not an impact player. He has had good games only against a couple of weak teams. Otherwise he hasn't shown up. He is also infrequently seen in the backfield.

Not saying he sucks but he certainly has not had the same impact the others are having.

He is not having a great year, but he has had personal problems losing a loved one & is playing in a new defense this year. I will cut him some slack for this year & see how he plays next year myself.

[Mahdi]

Fairley, and Jordan are not impact players IMO.

Fairley is still pretty useless and never really appears. He had 1 sack and 15 tackles in 10 games last year. Dareus had 43 tackles and 5.5 sacks.
Dareus is way better than Fairley.
Jordan had 31 tackles an 1 sack
Clayborn had 42 tackles 7.5 sacks and 3 forced fumbles

Fairley has been coming on strong the last few weeks since getting healthy and has been a major impact player for Detroit. He is starting to look like a Warren Sapp type player. Clayborn hasn't been playing due to injury but when he was he was a beast at DE. The guy is strong at the PoA in the run game and is a good pass rusher.

Cam Jordan has also begun to be a more impact player although I don't think I'd have him over Dareus at this point.

[Mahdi]

He is not having a great year, but he has had personal problems losing a loved one & is playing in a new defense this year. I will cut him some slack for this year & see how he plays next year myself.

Yeah I agree that he may have some untapped potential, next year he can become dominant or even later this season. I'm just saying that as of now, many of the other guys taken after him have established themselves into impact players while Dareus has been in many games abused by opposing offenses.

[X-Era]

Fairley has been coming on strong the last few weeks since getting healthy and has been a major impact player for Detroit. He is starting to look like a Warren Sapp type player. Clayborn hasn't been playing due to injury but when he was he was a beast at DE. The guy is strong at the PoA in the run game and is a good pass rusher.

Cam Jordan has also begun to be a more impact player although I don't think I'd have him over Dareus at this point.
Honestly don't agree. Using Fairley in this discussion is just trying to make your argument. He's a fat slob who lacks motivation. He had 2 sacks in the last game. Without them he would again be under performing his expectations. So basically he's had one good game.

Clayborn looks like a stud I'll give you that. But Jordan is another guy that hasn't done much yet.

And if we should have drafted Clayborn over Dareus but Dareus is still very good, so what?

[Mahdi]

Honestly don't agree. Using Fairley in this discussion is just trying to make your argument. He's a fat slob who lacks motivation. He had 2 sacks in the last game. Without them he would again be under performing his expectations. So basically he's had one good game.

Clayborn looks like a stud I'll give you that. But Jordan is another guy that hasn't done much yet.

And if we should have drafted Clayborn over Dareus but Dareus is still very good, so what?

Who says Dareus is still very good? He has been ranked among the worst performing DTs by ProFootball Focus. How is that good? Because we had a good game as a team against the Fins?

ANd Fairley hasn't had just one good game. He has started the last two games in place of Corey Williams and was a star in both.

[better days]

Fairley has been coming on strong the last few weeks since getting healthy and has been a major impact player for Detroit. He is starting to look like a Warren Sapp type player. Clayborn hasn't been playing due to injury but when he was he was a beast at DE. The guy is strong at the PoA in the run game and is a good pass rusher.

Cam Jordan has also begun to be a more impact player although I don't think I'd have him over Dareus at this point.

Sapp is a first ballot HOF player. Fairley will never see the HOF unless he buys a ticket. I am happy the Bills have Darius & not Fairely myself.

[Buffalogic]

Saying Fairley is an impact player and Dareus is not is quite funny. You leniently inflate the contributions of other guys you know a whole lot less than dareus to bad mouth him. In short, you're dumb.

[DraftBoy]

No he is not an impact player. He has had good games only against a couple of weak teams. Otherwise he hasn't shown up. He is also infrequently seen in the backfield.

Not saying he sucks but he certainly has not had the same impact the others are having.

For the love of christ you put Fairley and friggin Taylor on there as impact guys, have you watched either one?

Fairley has had a total of one good partial year as last year was crap for him. Taylor has barely played this year as of now.

Exactly how are you evaluating this because right now there is nothing you have posted to actually support this.

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Who says Dareus is still very good? He has been ranked among the worst performing DTs by ProFootball Focus. How is that good? Because we had a good game as a team against the Fins?

ANd Fairley hasn't had just one good game. He has started the last two games in place of Corey Williams and was a star in both.

Do you know how PFF calculates its rankings?

[SquishDaFish]

Saying dareus isnt good but Fairley is an impact player you def dont know talent. Dareus is a damn good young player and well worth where he was picked. This is the one draft you shouldnt be looking at saying what your saying. We picked right this 1 time. Dareus is having a tough year and am sure he will bounce back to be the probowl type player he was last year.

[better days]

Saying dareus isnt good but Fairley is an impact player you def dont know talent. Dareus is a damn good young player and well worth where he was picked. This is the one draft you shouldnt be looking at saying what your saying. We picked right this 1 time. Dareus is having a tough year and am sure he will bounce back to be the probowl type player he was last year.

Nix may have made a few mistakes as GM of the Bills, but Dareus is not one of them. And, IMO Nix is the best GM the Bills have ever had aside from Polian.

[trapezeus]

dareus has consistency issues...but that came up this year with a death in the family. he seems to be playing better the last two weeks or so, which oddly coincides with the defense playing better as a whole. "giving up 38 points is better"? Yes, when the opposing team is gifted 21 points.

[Jeff1220]

The most valuable idea that can be taken from this thread is that the 2011 draft was a pretty darn good one.

[Owen DeBoard]

Fairley has been coming on strong the last few weeks since getting healthy and has been a major impact player for Detroit. He is starting to look like a Warren Sapp type player. Clayborn hasn't been playing due to injury but when he was he was a beast at DE. The guy is strong at the PoA in the run game and is a good pass rusher.

Cam Jordan has also begun to be a more impact player although I don't think I'd have him over Dareus at this point.
Dont forget that Fairley plays right next to that guy named Suh. No knock on Kyle Williams but I would say Suh is a better player than him.

[YardRat]

I'm still good with the Dareus pick.

[Mahdi]

Saying Fairley is an impact player and Dareus is not is quite funny. You leniently inflate the contributions of other guys you know a whole lot less than dareus to bad mouth him. In short, you're dumb.

You're point that Fairley is not yet an impact player is fair, although he has been coming on strong lately.

On another note, be respectful, no reason to insult people as its unnecessary. I personally don't care to badmouth Dareus. I'm bringing up a topic and I think a lot of what I'm saying has merit. Arguments can be made for some players over others.

[Mahdi]

Saying dareus isnt good but Fairley is an impact player you def dont know talent. Dareus is a damn good young player and well worth where he was picked. This is the one draft you shouldnt be looking at saying what your saying. We picked right this 1 time. Dareus is having a tough year and am sure he will bounce back to be the probowl type player he was last year.

I made the exact same point earlier in the thread. He definitely may pull his game up, but as of now, Dareus is behind many defensive players who were picked after him.

Also, saying that Dareus was worth the selection is a very bold statement considering the season he is having and the players selected after him who are outplaying him.

[bigbub2352]

when your LBers suck it makes your dline look ineffective aginst the run.....dareous is not the problem on d

[IAG]

Dareus was very much needed. Williams and Dareus will be monsters in the middle for years to come. Good pick.

[kingJofNYC]

Cameron Jordan's an impact player if you don't watch him play.

Oh, and Dareus had a great game against the Pats, he and Kyle were the top DTs for the week per PFF. Last year Fairley wasn't even close to sniffing Dareus' PFF grade. Having a down year but he's been much better the last 3 games.

[Mr. Pink]

The most valuable idea that can be taken from this thread is that the 2011 draft was a pretty darn good one.

And we settled for a lesser player than what we could have got.

[Mahdi]

I think many people are getting away from the issue in order to convince themselves that Dareus was the right pick. I'm not saying the guy is a bust or even an average player. I think he is a good player.

However, no one here can tell me that Watt, Peterson, Aldon Smith, Robert Quinn, AJ Green, Julio Jones and Ryan Kerrigan are not way ahead of him in terms of impact on a consistent basis.

I think arguments can be made with Fairley, Cam Jordan, Clayborn (although I think Clayborn has been better than Dareus for sure) and Phil Taylor.

The real question is not "Did buffalo get a good player?" The real question is, "Did Buffalo get the best player they could at 3?"

Personally, I think Dareus was a pick made to be safe and fill a need.

[TacklingDummy]

I think many people are getting away from the issue in order to convince themselves that Dareus was the right pick. I'm not saying the guy is a bust or even an average player. I think he is a good player.

However, no one here can tell me that Watt, Peterson, Aldon Smith, Robert Quinn, AJ Green, Julio Jones and Ryan Kerrigan are not way ahead of him in terms of impact on a consistent basis.

I think arguments can be made with Fairley, Cam Jordan, Clayborn (although I think Clayborn has been better than Dareus for sure) and Phil Taylor.

The real question is not "Did buffalo get a good player?" The real question is, "Did Buffalo get the best player they could at 3?"

Personally, I think Dareus was a pick made to be safe and fill a need.

At the time I hated the Dareus pick. I wanted Green or Peterson. I still feel that way.

Dareus has been nothing special. He's not terrible like McCargo but he's also not a star like many of the players who were drafted after him are.

[GingerP]

The game Aldon Smith had last night helped make your point.

I don't think the question is whether Dareus can be a good player. I think it comes down to is he more than a NT?

Based on what I have seen, he is more of a NT than the kind of disruptive player you build a defense around. He can be a hard guy to move in the middle of the defense and can occasionally push the pocket, but he is closer to Casey Hampton than a J.J. Watt (I think he is somewhere in between). I don't know if it is worth the #3 overall pick to take a NT.

[kingJofNYC]

I think many people are getting away from the issue in order to convince themselves that Dareus was the right pick. I'm not saying the guy is a bust or even an average player. I think he is a good player.

However, no one here can tell me that Watt, Peterson, Aldon Smith, Robert Quinn, AJ Green, Julio Jones and Ryan Kerrigan are not way ahead of him in terms of impact on a consistent basis.

I think arguments can be made with Fairley, Cam Jordan, Clayborn (although I think Clayborn has been better than Dareus for sure) and Phil Taylor.

The real question is not "Did buffalo get a good player?" The real question is, "Did Buffalo get the best player they could at 3?"

Personally, I think Dareus was a pick made to be safe and fill a need.

Quinn and Kerrigan shouldn't be in the same sentence with Aldon or Watt. Still would take Dareus over Quinn and Kerrigan, Dareus had a better year than them as a rookie and he was only 21. Hard to play DT in this league and Dareus was very good as a young rookie.

He's had a bad sophmore campaign, but you're elevating players like Phil Taylor who did **** all this year? Why is Phil Taylor suddenly this world beater when he wasn't better than Dareus last season and he hasn't done a thing this year?

Dareus is only 22, he needs to drop some weight, play with better leverage and use his hands more. You're talking up other players who haven't done much in this league. The guys who you have legit arguments about are Green, Jones, Watt, Aldon. Peterson has the potential, but he's been pretty inconsistent, similar to Dareus actually.

We'll see where Dareus takes his game, it took McCoy 3 years to get going and now he's playing better than overrated Suh. I've killed Dareus more than anyone else on this board, but he's been better the last few weeks. He was really good last year for a 21 year old.

[Mahdi]

The game Aldon Smith had last night helped make your point.

I don't think the question is whether Dareus can be a good player. I think it comes down to is he more than a NT?

Based on what I have seen, he is more of a NT than the kind of disruptive player you build a defense around. He can be a hard guy to move in the middle of the defense and can occasionally push the pocket, but he is closer to Casey Hampton than a J.J. Watt (I think he is somewhere in between). I don't know if it is worth the #3 overall pick to take a NT.

Well Dareus was doing a lot of talking about how he wanted to prove Denver made the wrong choice with Von Miller who taken BEFORE him. Miller is making a case for DPOY so its not even debatable. Now I hope he is watching as players taken AFTER him are outplaying him too and pull up his game.

[DraftBoy]

I think many people are getting away from the issue in order to convince themselves that Dareus was the right pick. I'm not saying the guy is a bust or even an average player. I think he is a good player.

However, no one here can tell me that Watt, Peterson, Aldon Smith, Robert Quinn, AJ Green, Julio Jones and Ryan Kerrigan are not way ahead of him in terms of impact on a consistent basis.

I think arguments can be made with Fairley, Cam Jordan, Clayborn (although I think Clayborn has been better than Dareus for sure) and Phil Taylor.

The real question is not "Did buffalo get a good player?" The real question is, "Did Buffalo get the best player they could at 3?"

Personally, I think Dareus was a pick made to be safe and fill a need.

So your argument is hindsight is 20/20. We already knew this and we could go back and do this for every pick in every draft.

[DraftBoy]

Dareus is a 34 player, he never should of been put into a 43. This is the Bills doing, he was dominant for a rookie in the 34 since moving to the 43 its been a mixed bag some games he looks incredible some games you don't even know he's out there. These are the result of a coaching staff making foolish decisions.

[Mahdi]

So your argument is hindsight is 20/20. We already knew this and we could go back and do this for every pick in every draft.

In this situation I don't think its about hindsight. They were picking 3 overall and had lots of choices ahead of them that were considered top tier talent. Top CB available and top WR available. Everyone knew they would be studs. Same with Aldon Smith.

[Mahdi]

Dareus is a 34 player, he never should of been put into a 43. This is the Bills doing, he was dominant for a rookie in the 34 since moving to the 43 its been a mixed bag some games he looks incredible some games you don't even know he's out there. These are the result of a coaching staff making foolish decisions.

I still don't agree with this point at all. Dareus was known for being a versatile player. His whole draft grade was based on the idea that he is scheme diverse and I even remember analysts saying he would be better off in a 4-3 so he could be free to get into the backfield.

[DraftBoy]

In this situation I don't think its about hindsight. They were picking 3 overall and had lots of choices ahead of them that were considered top tier talent. Top CB available and top WR available. Everyone knew they would be studs. Same with Aldon Smith.

And it was said of those three players many of us would take them. Aldon Smith nobody was 100% on and that's why he slid some. You want to act like this was a situation that was in a vacuum when it was not. You're ignoring what was going on pre-draft to fit your argument.

Peterson has struggled at times as a CB, but is a great return man, is that what you want? We already have McKelvin.

Green is a beast. Dareus is a beast in the right defense, Smith same thing take him out of the 34 and he's not going to be near as good. Watt is probably a player where sheme doesn't matter but nobody thought he'd be this good coming out.

So yes this is entirely about hindsight.

[DraftBoy]

I still don't agree with this point at all. Dareus was known for being a versatile player. His whole draft grade was based on the idea that he is scheme diverse and I even remember analysts saying he would be better off in a 4-3 so he could be free to get into the backfield.

Yes versatile in that he can play all three DL positions in the 34. Some analysts were clearly wrong, you don't take the best 34 DL in that class and take him if you intend to move away from that scheme in a year.

[Mahdi]

For the love of christ you put Fairley and friggin Taylor on there as impact guys, have you watched either one?

Fairley has had a total of one good partial year as last year was crap for him. Taylor has barely played this year as of now.

Exactly how are you evaluating this because right now there is nothing you have posted to actually support this.

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Do you know how PFF calculates its rankings?

I put Taylor there because he had an excellent season last year. I put Fairley there probably prematurely because of his performances the last 2 weeks against the Packers and Vikings where he got his first two starts and killed it both times.

I agree that its early to have him as an impact player. Still, Dareus is not playing well this season and others have done better.

[Mahdi]

Yes versatile in that he can play all three DL positions in the 34. Some analysts were clearly wrong, you don't take the best 34 DL in that class and take him if you intend to move away from that scheme in a year.

So how do you explain Watt? Watt was a 4-3 DT now he is a 5-tech? So how come he worked out?

[Mahdi]

And it was said of those three players many of us would take them. Aldon Smith nobody was 100% on and that's why he slid some. You want to act like this was a situation that was in a vacuum when it was not. You're ignoring what was going on pre-draft to fit your argument.

Peterson has struggled at times as a CB, but is a great return man, is that what you want? We already have McKelvin.

Green is a beast. Dareus is a beast in the right defense, Smith same thing take him out of the 34 and he's not going to be near as good. Watt is probably a player where sheme doesn't matter but nobody thought he'd be this good coming out.

So yes this is entirely about hindsight.

Peterson has been a consistent cover corner. Aldon Smith was a 4-3 DE in college so don't get how you are saying he wouldn't succeed outside of the 3-4???

You are using scheme to support your claims where you see fit. So basically, Dareus shouldn't have changed scheme because he was 3-4 in college, yet Aldon Smith who was 4-3 in college can't suddenly play anything other than 3-4? And Watt meanwhile was a 4-3 DT who is now an All-Pro 5-tech...

[DesertFox24]

I am sorry I believe Dareus can play in both the 34 and 43 and he is learning how to do it this year. We are talking about a football player.

Secondly Dareus will be one of the best players in this draft by end of his career

[DraftBoy]

So how do you explain Watt? Watt was a 4-3 DT now he is a 5-tech? So how come he worked out?

Well he wasn't a 43 DT coming out. He also was a power based rusher whose skillet looked better in a 34.

[DraftBoy]

Peterson has been a consistent cover corner. Aldon Smith was a 4-3 DE in college so don't get how you are saying he wouldn't succeed outside of the 3-4???

You are using scheme to support your claims where you see fit. So basically, Dareus shouldn't have changed scheme because he was 3-4 in college, yet Aldon Smith who was 4-3 in college can't suddenly play anything other than 3-4? And Watt meanwhile was a 4-3 DT who is now an All-Pro 5-tech...

No he hasn't he's been susceptible to double moves his entire career thus far.

And? He's a 34 OLB, just because you play a position in college does not mean you're most likely going to be successful at it in the NFL. Smith's size, freak athletic ability, and skills told coaches and talent eval guys he's a better fit standing up. We all knew that, he doesn't have great functional strenght at the POA, he's not great at shedding blocks, all things you see in San Fran. When he gets blocked he's not working through them like Brooks, Willis, or J. Smith can. Which is why you never move him back to a 43.

JJ Watt was now a 43 DT, he was a DE who slid inside on nickel and dime packages because he played with great power.

Couple of game logs from the official NCAA Site;
http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/worksheet.jsp?year=2010&game=201000000041820101120.xml
http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/worksheet.jsp?year=2010&game=201000000079620101009.xml

Scroll down to the starters section and find #99 and see where he played.

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Further there is a reason why a guy like Jarvis Jones will never play down lineman in a 43 consistently, or why Barkevious Mingo will be drafted by a 34 team despite playing in a technical 43.

[Mahdi]

No he hasn't he's been susceptible to double moves his entire career thus far.

And? He's a 34 OLB, just because you play a position in college does not mean you're most likely going to be successful at it in the NFL. Smith's size, freak athletic ability, and skills told coaches and talent eval guys he's a better fit standing up. We all knew that, he doesn't have great functional strenght at the POA, he's not great at shedding blocks, all things you see in San Fran. When he gets blocked he's not working through them like Brooks, Willis, or J. Smith can. Which is why you never move him back to a 43.

JJ Watt was now a 43 DT, he was a DE who slid inside on nickel and dime packages because he played with great power.

Couple of game logs from the official NCAA Site;
http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/worksheet.jsp?year=2010&game=201000000041820101120.xml
http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/worksheet.jsp?year=2010&game=201000000079620101009.xml

Scroll down to the starters section and find #99 and see where he played.

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Further there is a reason why a guy like Jarvis Jones will never play down lineman in a 43 consistently, or why Barkevious Mingo will be drafted by a 34 team despite playing in a technical 43.

What his official position says is not very relevant. I know he played inside a lot so that's my point. Its not like he was playing 5-tech in college either.

[Mahdi]

I am sorry I believe Dareus can play in both the 34 and 43 and he is learning how to do it this year. We are talking about a football player.

Secondly Dareus will be one of the best players in this draft by end of his career

Definitely possible. I don't not recognize that Dareus has some untapped potential. This thread is only discussing the present and how those players rank against each other.

But yeah, in 2 years maybe Dareus is Kevin Williams.

[justasportsfan]

lol. Failey better than Dareus. If we drafted Fairley instead of Dareus you'd be crying murder. Dareus beside Suh :drool:

[Mahdi]

lol. Failey better than Dareus. If we drafted Fairley instead of Dareus you'd be crying murder. Dareus beside Suh :drool:

Bit too much optimism for a guy who has been pushed around all season minus 1 or 2 games.

[justasportsfan]

Bit too much optimism for a guy who has been pushed around all season minus 1 or 2 games.

and Fairley had 1 or two games total in his entire career while playing beside Suh. Give me a break

[Mahdi]

and Fairley had 1 or two games total in his entire career while playing beside Suh. Give me a break

Fairley's two starts this season in the last 2 games have been two performances Dareus hasn't had to date. Too early to declare him better than Dareus but Dareus himself has been horrible this year minus the Fins game and Cleveland.

[Ed]

So your argument is hindsight is 20/20. We already knew this and we could go back and do this for every pick in every draft.
Exactly. I'd say it's extremely rare that a team gets the best player they could have possibly gotten at any pick. Sometimes the best players from certain drafts don't go until the middle rounds, which means that no team got the best player they could have gotten with any of their early picks.

[DraftBoy]

What his official position says is not very relevant. I know he played inside a lot so that's my point. Its not like he was playing 5-tech in college either.

[DraftBoy]

What his official position says is not very relevant. I know he played inside a lot so that's my point. Its not like he was playing 5-tech in college either.

Now it's not relevant, but before you brought it up multiple times and your right he wasn't playing 5 Tech in College but he was dominant at the 3 Tech he moved inside which should tell you a lot.

[EDS]

If a 330 lber like Dareus can't handle a DT role in a 4-3 defense he should never have been selected in the top 10 of the draft.

Personally, I liked the pick when made and still think he will be a good player, but I do doubt he will ever have the impact of guys like Von Miller, JJ Watt and Aldon Smith, regardless of the defensive scheme he is in.

Maybe it is me, but I find it amazing that the top 3 passrushers in the NFL are all second year players.

And after lastnights game it appears there are now TWO starting caliber QBS Buddy passed on to draft Aaron Williams. Pure genius in action!

[DraftBoy]

If a 330 lber like Dareus can't handle a DT role in a 4-3 defense he should never have been selected in the top 10 of the draft.

Personally, I liked the pick when made and still think he will be a good player, but I do doubt he will ever have the impact of guys like Von Miller, JJ Watt and Aldon Smith, regardless of the defensive scheme he is in.

Maybe it is me, but I find it amazing that the top 3 passrushers in the NFL are all second year players.

And after lastnights game it appears there are now TWO starting caliber QBS Buddy passed on to draft Aaron Williams. Pure genius in action!

Let's look at this differently, how about your boss takes whatever it is you do best in your job and asks you to now do the opposite of it. How long will you need to adjust, how good will you be at that?

This is what we're asking. Dareus was a incredible space eater who occupied blocks and won at the POA. Now you want him to be a quick first step guy who shoots gaps?

[EDS]

Let's look at this differently, how about your boss takes whatever it is you do best in your job and asks you to now do the opposite of it. How long will you need to adjust, how good will you be at that?

This is what we're asking. Dareus was a incredible space eater who occupied blocks and won at the POA. Now you want him to be a quick first step guy who shoots gaps?

Plenty of 4-3 defenses that employ a space eater so no reason the Bills could not take advantage of that talent. The guy was always advertised as more than just a space eater though so again, I don't see why he cannot at least be average in the Bills admittedly poorly designed and coached defense.

[BertSquirtgum]

Dareus is a 34 player, he never should of been put into a 43. This is the Bills doing, he was dominant for a rookie in the 34 since moving to the 43 its been a mixed bag some games he looks incredible some games you don't even know he's out there. These are the result of a coaching staff making foolish decisions.

I disagree with this. He was projected to be good in either defense.

[Mahdi]

Let's look at this differently, how about your boss takes whatever it is you do best in your job and asks you to now do the opposite of it. How long will you need to adjust, how good will you be at that?

This is what we're asking. Dareus was a incredible space eater who occupied blocks and won at the POA. Now you want him to be a quick first step guy who shoots gaps?

But that's not entirely accurate. Yes he was a good space eater, but he was also being hyped because of his ability to get into the backfield and create negative plays. Switching to the 4-3 for him was supposed to be freeing him up to wreak havoc.

[stuckincincy]

[QUOTE=DraftBoy;3715087

...So yes this is entirely about hindsight.[/QUOTE]

It always is...in recent history, see 4th rounder DT Gino Atkins. Adrian Foster. Examples abound.

[kingJofNYC]

It always is...in recent history, see 4th rounder DT Gino Atkins. Adrian Foster. Examples abound.
Bowman or Carrington?

Sean Lee or Troup?

We can do this all day, just not worth it.

[DraftBoy]

Plenty of 4-3 defenses that employ a space eater so no reason the Bills could not take advantage of that talent. The guy was always advertised as more than just a space eater though so again, I don't see why he cannot at least be average in the Bills admittedly poorly designed and coached defense.

This defense does not. You're not mentioning that not all 43's are the same. This defense is designed for its four DL to get as much penetration into the gaps as posisble. This is not the old Vikings set up where they used Pat Williams to free up Kevin Williams.

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I disagree with this. He was projected to be good in either defense.

He was projected to be elite in a 34.

[DraftBoy]

But that's not entirely accurate. Yes he was a good space eater, but he was also being hyped because of his ability to get into the backfield and create negative plays. Switching to the 4-3 for him was supposed to be freeing him up to wreak havoc.

Yes through power and collapsing the pocket. His was able to redirect running plays due to his ability to hold the edge or power the OT back into the running lane.

[kingJofNYC]

Basically, this D prefers a Geno Atkins, Henry Melton type at DT.

I still think Dareus can fit in a 4-3, but he's not two gapping like he did at Bama, that's what he did best. Bet he'd be better in an under front as the under tackle, but Kyle would play that roll most likely. George Edwards ran a 3-4 under when he was here and Dareus was the under tackle when Kyle went down. Edwards ran a one gap under 3-4, remember reading that he asked Wade how he ran his system since that's the way Wade does it in Houston, 3-4 under.

[DraftBoy]

Basically, this D prefers a Geno Atkins, Henry Melton type at DT.

I still think Dareus can fit in a 4-3, but he's not two gapping like he did at Bama, that's what he did best. Bet he'd be better in an under front as the under tackle, but Kyle would play that roll most likely. George Edwards ran a 3-4 under when he was here and Dareus was the under tackle when Kyle went down. Edwards ran a one gap under 3-4, remember reading that he asked Wade how he ran his system since that's the way Wade does it in Houston, 3-4 under.

Yes, exactly.

[DesertFox24]

Draftboy and Mahdi I think both of you are way of base.

Just because Dareus was a beast in college as a 34 DL does not mean he can not be a great 43 DT in our defense. For starters we have exceptional talent around him so he is not being asked to do it alone.

Secondly hind sight is 20/20. The only people I want to draft in the top 5 ever is an elite QB or an elite big (OT or DL). There was no QB worthy of the number 3 pick so we got the elite big.

Dareus 10 yard split was the best of any DL in that draft so please stop with the he is not quick enough argument.

Bottom line is he is learning a new defense he has never played and he is still a very young player.

However, I will give you this if we are still having this same discussion next year after 10 games then yes he is a bust.

[DraftBoy]

Draftboy and Mahdi I think both of you are way of base.

Just because Dareus was a beast in college as a 34 DL does not mean he can not be a great 43 DT in our defense. For starters we have exceptional talent around him so he is not being asked to do it alone.

Secondly hind sight is 20/20. The only people I want to draft in the top 5 ever is an elite QB or an elite big (OT or DL). There was no QB worthy of the number 3 pick so we got the elite big.

Dareus 10 yard split was the best of any DL in that draft so please stop with the he is not quick enough argument.

Bottom line is he is learning a new defense he has never played and he is still a very young player.

However, I will give you this if we are still having this same discussion next year after 10 games then yes he is a bust.

How many yards are there between the DT and interior lineman? Also his 10 yard split wasn't even in the top 15 of DL that year, I believe he was 16th with a 1.68, which was 5th among DT's alone.

[stuckincincy]

Draftboy and Mahdi I think both of you are way of base.

Just because Dareus was a beast in college as a 34 DL does not mean he can not be a great 43 DT in our defense. For starters we have exceptional talent around him so he is not being asked to do it alone.

Secondly hind sight is 20/20. The only people I want to draft in the top 5 ever is an elite QB or an elite big (OT or DL). There was no QB worthy of the number 3 pick so we got the elite big.

Dareus 10 yard split was the best of any DL in that draft so please stop with the he is not quick enough argument.

Bottom line is he is learning a new defense he has never played and he is still a very young player.

However, I will give you this if we are still having this same discussion next year after 10 games then yes he is a bust.

"Beast in college"on defense means little to me, sad to say. Spread offenses, tons of yardage with their rule changes, which has surely spilled over to the NFL and their rule changes - IIRC, Sunday's HOU - JAX tilt approached 1,000 passing yards, with 9 passing touchdowns. IIRC, Bellichek said a while back that with the ko rule changes, why bother building a ko defense? Same about defense in general - why bother putting $ and picks into a defense...just put up the points. Which they surely have done.

The NFL is morphing into Arena football.

[stuckincincy]

[QUOTE=kingJofNYC;3715326]Basically, this D prefers a Geno Atkins, Henry Melton type at DT.

I still think Dareus can fit in a 4-3, but he's not two gapping like he did at Bama, that's what he did best. Bet he'd be better in an under front as the under tackle, but Kyle would play that roll most likely. George Edwards ran a 3-4 under when he was here and Dareus was the under tackle when Kyle went down. Edwards ran a one gap under 3-4, remember reading that he asked Wade how he ran his system since that's the way Wade does it in Houston, 3-4 under.[/QUOTE

Dareus needs to lose weight. He doesn't get off the snap nearly as well as I'd like. He's no Sam Adams.

[cookie G]

Dareus needs to lose weight. He doesn't get off the snap nearly as well as I'd like. He's no Sam Adams.

Agreed, there were rumors that he was up around 340 at camp, they have him listed at 330, but I bet he is/was above that. Both in quickness and endurance, that can't help.

And I have no doubt that playing while grieving isn't an easy thing to do.

[stuckincincy]

Agreed, there were rumors that he was up around 340 at camp, they have him listed at 330, but I bet he is/was above that. Both in quickness and endurance, that can't help.

And I have no doubt that playing while grieving isn't an easy thing to do.

I know how it hurt to lose a loved one. Tens of thousands of folks grieve over the loss of loved ones - daily. And the so many of them face very serious economic questions, be it the crush of medical bills or the real possibility of losing their family economy. Domiciles longer afforded, heat off, furniture gone, empty cupboards, kids not fed and clothed an so on.


I'm sorry for his loss, but in the grand scheme of things, he is well insulated from what most of us suffer through. I understand that he may be in a funk, but OTH, he should count his blessings and do the job that gave him that. That's acting like a man.

[better days]

I know how it hurt to lose a loved one. Tens of thousands of folks grieve over the loss of loved ones - daily. And the so many of them face very serious economic questions, be it the crush of medical bills or the real possibility of losing their family economy. Domiciles longer afforded, heat off, furniture gone, empty cupboards, kids not fed and clothed an so on.


I'm sorry for his loss, but in the grand scheme of things, he is well insulated from what most of us suffer through. I understand that he may be in a funk, but OTH, he should count his blessings and do the job that gave him that. That's acting like a man.

Yeah, I'm sure you gave your all while grieving the loss of a loved one. Grieving is for sissies.

[stuckincincy]

Yeah, I'm sure you gave your all while grieving the loss of a loved one. Grieving is for sissies.

Hmm. Chide me about poor grieving, then declare that grieving is for sissies...

You have steeped into it. I know, having stepped into it with the best of them. :jig:

[cookie G]

I know how it hurt to lose a loved one. Tens of thousands of folks grieve over the loss of loved ones - daily. And the so many of them face very serious economic questions, be it the crush of medical bills or the real possibility of losing their family economy. Domiciles longer afforded, heat off, furniture gone, empty cupboards, kids not fed and clothed an so on.

He lost his father at a young age, his mother was in a wheelchair most of his life. It fell on him to take over a number of fatherly duties from the time he was 11 or so. He lost his mother his senior year of college.

He was required to grow up pretty quick.



I'm sorry for his loss, but in the grand scheme of things, he is well insulated from what most of us suffer through. I understand that he may be in a funk, but OTH, he should count his blessings and do the job that gave him that. That's acting like a man.

Not having to worry about monthly expenses puts someone in a little better situation during a grieving process, but it doesn't eliminate the process. Everyone grieves, regardless of socioeconomic status, and everyone grieves in their own way.

That is especially true under these circumstances, where the brother was very young, he was not just a brother, but basically a father to him, and the circumstances in which the death occured.

This also didn't happen during the offseason, when he would have a little more time to sort things out and let the process work itself out a little. I wouldn't have expected him to play at 100% over the past month, and I don't think he has.

Frankly, under the circumstances, I think he's done pretty well, and has shown some improvement over the past 2 weeks. He's looking like he did last year and during the preseason.

The weight issue is totally separate. I really don't think he needs to be at 330 or 340.

[better days]

Hmm. Chide me about poor grieving, then declare that grieving is for sissies...

You have steeped into it. I know, having stepped into it with the best of them. :jig:

I stepped into WHAT? You WRONGLY criticized a young guy because his play may have been affected by his grief over a loved one. Yes he does not have the financial worries most people have, but a loss is a loss & the rich are affected by loss of a loved one as much as the poor are. Loss of life is something money can't make up for. And Dareus may have depended on his brother to look after his mother so he now has to deal with that stress as well.

[cookie G]

BTW, if you have the 2nd Pats game or the Fins game on DVR, watch it again.

It isn't Kyle Williams or Mario Williams that draw the double teams, it is Dareus. In the Fins game, against the run, they started by chipping him with a 2nd guy on run plays. After the first quarter, he was being doubled on nearly every running play. On those times where he received a single blocker on a run play, he beat his man more often than not, and was in the backfield. Pass blocking..not so much, but he still drew the bulk of the double teams.

So in a way, the penetrating DT vs. space eating DT designation doesn't really matter, because he IS a space eating DT, by necessity. It is how he is being blocked.

Wanny stressed this about this defense, and it is true of any defense..

...when a guy is being doubled, you are having a single blocker on another, the guys drawing the single blocks have to be beating their man consistently

When you rewind and watch it, that's a great deal of the problem.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

How do I say this in a way you all can understand: Dareus was not a mistake, not drafting Andy Dalton was

[The Jokeman]

How do I say this in a way you all can understand: Dareus was not a mistake, not drafting Andy Dalton was

We might want to start tossing in Colin Kaepernick name too of could of instead of Aaron Williams. I know I liked him before the draft but didn't predict him as 2nd Rounder.

[Mahdi]

This defense does not. You're not mentioning that not all 43's are the same. This defense is designed for its four DL to get as much penetration into the gaps as posisble. This is not the old Vikings set up where they used Pat Williams to free up Kevin Williams.

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He was projected to be elite in a 34.

You say he was projected as a 3-4 DL but many say he was projected to be more of a 4-3 DT. And as you know, normally, taller players are the ones projected as 3-4 5- techs not shorter guys in the 6-2, 6-3 range like Marcell. Which is why Watt was seen as a 5-tech prospect since he is 6'6.

NFL.com say otherwise....

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/marcell-dareus?id=2495478

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/marcell-dareus-goes-to-the-buffalo-bills-with-third-pick-in-nfl-draft?urn=nfl,wp1469

[DraftBoy]

You say he was projected as a 3-4 DL but many say he was projected to be more of a 4-3 DT. And as you know, normally, taller players are the ones projected as 3-4 5- techs not shorter guys in the 6-2, 6-3 range like Marcell. Which is why Watt was seen as a 5-tech prospect since he is 6'6.

NFL.com say otherwise....

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/marcell-dareus?id=2495478

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/marcell-dareus-goes-to-the-buffalo-bills-with-third-pick-in-nfl-draft?urn=nfl,wp1469

As I also said, some evaluators were wrong. I wouldn't use anything from NFL.com prior to last year unless it came from Mayock which that Dareus report didn't.

I like Doug's stuff a lot, he's very good but he and I disagreed on that.