Succesful 4-3 defenses... Who has them and why?

[X-Era]

I want Wanny fired. Let's start there.

But, I think our defensive issues are partly scheme and partly talent at a few positions such as ILB and OLB.

Who in the NFL has a solid model for a good 4-3 defense?

The Denver Broncos? They currently are the 4th ranked defense. Jack Del Rio is the DC. Here's their depth chart from there homepage:


<tbody>
LDE
Derek Wolfe (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Derek-Wolfe/5ca193b1-8865-496d-866e-48608d5b0602)
Malik Jackson (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Malik-Jackson/d3a5cad9-7ddd-481b-b40e-664dc5f3429c)




DT
Kevin Vickerson (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Kevin-Vickerson/fb0b17b8-6962-42d0-8557-f2be6be183eb)
Sealver Siliga (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Sealver-Siliga/a799c0ea-6d2a-4b90-b742-c15270d3b9d3)




NT
Justin Bannan (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Justin-Bannan/67a58b86-e998-40d1-a4a9-d5ed3ed1ed22)
Mitch Unrein (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Mitch-Unrein/2fb172ca-6597-4051-8151-a746a7716dc3)




RDE
Elvis Dumervil (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Elvis-Dumervil/a4dbb5af-d1ab-4e6e-a48b-9aeb259e097d)
Robert Ayers (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Robert-Ayers/bf32b1af-3e6f-4876-bae1-e65171db14f6)




SLB
Von Miller (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Von-Miller/036470c3-df00-47e4-a936-86200f2c88dc)
Nate Irving (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Nate-Irving/2f16290f-0271-403a-9ade-c1037b306a3b)




MLB
Keith Brooking (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Keith-Brooking/f67219af-0efe-46f1-85d0-23bea7c8d32a)
Steven Johnson (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Steven-Johnson/306fb24f-86e6-4837-8f9b-25ebc0dc0dde)




WLB
Wesley Woodyard (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Wesley-Woodyard/5bf4e2fc-acff-479c-9f25-5643d532fb8e)
Danny Trevathan (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Danny-Trevathan/473b9a9c-e340-4f65-ad4c-09a60be3dfbc)
D.J. Williams (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/D.J.-Williams/332a3e04-66d8-444a-b13d-a262d550729f)



LCB
Champ Bailey (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Champ-Bailey/e1617150-1aa6-4efa-b649-3467ecc2384a)
Tracy Porter (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Tracy-Porter/251a07ab-53f2-4d51-ae01-5ba9af99b2fb)




RCB
Chris Harris (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Chris-Harris/6fb07762-c228-4b8e-9a2c-8007c6b1e5e2)
Tony Carter (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Tony-Carter/8f24e36f-e753-4790-9265-03f4d2cc9be0)
Omar Bolden (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Omar-Bolden/4ce7c58e-fede-410f-b3cd-db510110aa2f)



SS
Mike Adams (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Mike-Adams/47323ba6-f90f-4f50-908e-e13b46f2228b)
David Bruton (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/David-Bruton/4eb85e3d-502f-4a8b-b1af-b1d4b203bd57)




FS
Rahim Moore (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Rahim-Moore/e72e3bec-462b-45d4-a815-fe13df1e68da)
Jim Leonhard (http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Jim-Leonhard/e1c01bcd-368e-4f45-885e-6daabebdd8c3)

</tbody>

Personally I think our DL has better talent. But, I think Von Miller is light years better than any OLB we have and Brooking is more solid than any ILB we have as well.

I haven't watched them enough to know how they scheme. Can anyone elaborate on why they are successful? How do they cover the flat and seems?

The Chicago Bears are ranked 3rd currently. Rod Marinelli is the DC. Here's their 4-3 depth chart:


<tbody>
LDE
Corey Wootton (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Corey-Wootton/8ec34d0d-d4a3-47ea-9659-470c1d815973)
Israel Idonije (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Israel-Idonije/03a3b42b-c8ed-40cd-a3b4-4870f5311619)
Shea McClellin (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Shea-McClellin/2bba1ad4-4fbe-4c87-b3f4-0202b2727706)



DT
Henry Melton (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Henry-Melton/1028fd1c-56b2-420a-9c57-61a4864578dd)
Stephen Paea (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Stephen-Paea/d857a152-77c3-4b2c-9b93-0ba57bbfeaf0)
Amobi Okoye (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Amobi-Okoye/5faf0c7f-d399-415d-aa9d-78e4a58a7d94)



NT
Stephen Paea (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Stephen-Paea/d857a152-77c3-4b2c-9b93-0ba57bbfeaf0)
Matt Toeaina (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Matt-Toeaina/e2669c0a-8388-4886-98aa-26b41d58e4ae)




RDE
Julius Peppers (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Julius-Peppers/10caef1b-c663-4ed7-a5a5-5ec030602dd4)
Shea McClellin (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Shea-McClellin/2bba1ad4-4fbe-4c87-b3f4-0202b2727706)
Cheta Ozougwu (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Cheta-Ozougwu/f7897068-b6ec-4f02-9bcf-9fae69447aed)



WLB
Lance Briggs (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Lance-Briggs/0758e50b-55cc-4a39-82af-47b9988bbe1e)
Geno Hayes (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Geno-Hayes/918cc001-95f2-44ec-abbf-8736085fdd66)




MLB
Brian Urlacher (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Brian-Urlacher/8e3c5188-a1cf-4af3-81ef-9e205bb4c0b3)
Blake Costanzo (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Blake-Costanzo/e5b47a8d-de56-447e-9543-43b4dfd2ed25)




SLB
Nick Roach (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Nick-Roach/f939f867-3382-4c4c-91bb-637c0bef8332)
J.T. Thomas (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/J.T.-Thomas/ebe9cd91-8841-4d16-b764-158fec554abe)




LCB
Tim Jennings (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Tim-Jennings/1ad6d299-60f2-4e45-9f38-de682e5d92fc)
Kelvin Hayden (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Kelvin-Hayden/d00a2558-e86d-4fd9-b51e-f52a68bb3b48)
Zack Bowman (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Zack-Bowman/08094e67-f7f8-448b-8c3a-4a8f340bc298)



RCB
Charles Tillman (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Charles-Tillman/d7f42114-9660-47bd-8107-58b4bee810c9)
Sherrick McManis (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Sherrick-McManis/71355d5a-ad05-4379-82f7-da6b86fce9fe)
D.J. Moore (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/D.J.-Moore/51f393e2-0df0-47be-8906-f3e71da67384)



SS
Major Wright (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Major-Wright/80ebec30-7ae6-454c-8a0a-72410355468e)
Craig Steltz (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Craig-Steltz/2dfcf2ea-f0ad-49b6-b3c6-0624ba3a9504)




FS
Chris Conte (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Chris-Conte/714e27ce-493a-456a-b562-a29cf41f3362)
Anthony Walters (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/roster/Anthony-Walters/b3a6faaa-8366-435f-9d01-23be31a1e575)

</tbody>

Again, Briggs and Urlacher stand out to me as being significantly better than our starters. Why are they having success and we aren't?

Can you think of other successful 4-3 defenses? What would it take for us to build a defense to have similar success?

This article breaks down the defenses for all 32 teams:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1283271-breaking-down-the-defensive-schemes-for-all-32-nfl-teams/page/10

[Mr. Pink]

Both of those teams secondaries are better too.

In fact, outside of Byrd everyone from LB to Secondary on this team is flat out terrible.

Any of those LBers on either the Bears or Broncos would start here.

Any of those corners would start here and either SS would start here.

There's an obvious talent gap on top of coaching gap.

[Mahdi]

When you compare us to the Broncos you have to compare Von Miller to Mario Williams as they are the top pass rushers on each team. Broncos clearly have a huge edge there.

Then you compare Moore to Dumervil as they are the next best pass rusher on each team. Again, huge edge to Denver.

Looking at the LB corps, Brooking is a very experienced ILB whereas Shepp is basically a rookie in our scheme. You also have Robert Ayers who has come along since a slow start and Woodyard is a fast veteran.

Back end you have their #1 CB Champ vs Gilmore -- at this point there is no contest.

So just looking at those critical positions #1 and #2 pass rushers, ILB and #1 CB Denver is way ahead. We are better everywhere else basically but those other positions outweigh everything.

Also, there is credit due to Del Rio because he has always been a top DC and very aggressive.

Chicago has Briggs, Urlacher, Peppers, Melton, Tillman, Major Wright, Tim Jennings, Idonije and Wooton who are all playing at a very high level in a system they have all been playing in for years.

[ServoBillieves]

What the hell kind of name is Sealver Siliga?

[kingJofNYC]

Pass rush

Von and Doom are rushing the passer in passing situations. This is why I'd take a guy like Dion Jordan, he can play SLB, can cover and rush on passing downs. Brings versatility to the game.

[zone]

I think our Defense has played much better as of late, maybe it took some time adjusting to the new scheme. That being said LB is a big need and somehow even though we have drafted one high for the last hundred years we need another good cover corner if Williams can't progress.

[RedEyE]

Interesting information. Thanks.

Curious how that relates to scheme in terms of blitzing percentages? In other words, of those 4-3 teams who blitzes more and from which positions?

I can't find that info anywhere online.

[X-Era]

When you compare us to the Broncos you have to compare Von Miller to Mario Williams as they are the top pass rushers on each team. Broncos clearly have a huge edge there.

Then you compare Moore to Dumervil as they are the next best pass rusher on each team. Again, huge edge to Denver.

Looking at the LB corps, Brooking is a very experienced ILB whereas Shepp is basically a rookie in our scheme. You also have Robert Ayers who has come along since a slow start and Woodyard is a fast veteran.

Back end you have their #1 CB Champ vs Gilmore -- at this point there is no contest.

So just looking at those critical positions #1 and #2 pass rushers, ILB and #1 CB Denver is way ahead. We are better everywhere else basically but those other positions outweigh everything.

Also, there is credit due to Del Rio because he has always been a top DC and very aggressive.

Chicago has Briggs, Urlacher, Peppers, Melton, Tillman, Major Wright, Tim Jennings, Idonije and Wooton who are all playing at a very high level in a system they have all been playing in for years.

On the Broncos:
Vickerson and Bannan? Kyle and Dareus are way better
Miller and Mario play different positions. Mario vs. Dumervil would be a better comparison. Dumervil plus Miller is better than Mario and no real pass rusher at OLB I agree. But we should then throw Kyle and Dareus into that too. Overall, I don't think they are hugely better. But having Miller makes them better as far as pas rush goes I agree.
Gilmore is playing much better now. I never wanted him starting right away and said that going into the year. But the Bills were hell bent and at some level that cost us. Next year Gilmore vs. Bailey may be pretty even. Bailey is on the down slide and Gilmore may become very solid or one of the best young CB's in the league.

Talent wise I don't think the Broncos are hugely better overall. Which makes me wonder about scheme.

Chicago has Peppers, Briggs, and Urlacher as the bigger name players. Again, talent wise I think we have Kyle, Dareus, Mario and Byrd. I think overall we may be more even with Chicago which again brings me to scheme.

But in both the Broncos and Bears cases I saw a big difference in talent level at LB'er. I had that as an issue entering the season and it really showed up on the field. But it also shows up in these comparisons.

[Mr. Pink]

Chicago has Peppers, Briggs, and Urlacher as the bigger name players. Again, talent wise I think we have Kyle, Dareus, Mario and Byrd. I think overall we may be more even with Chicago which again brings me to scheme.

But in both the Broncos and Bears cases I saw a big difference in talent level at LB'er. I had that as an issue entering the season and it really showed up on the field. But it also shows up in these comparisons.

You do realize that the Bears corners are MILES better than ours right?

Tillman only has 2 INTs and 7 FFs. Meanwhile I think Jennings has more INTs than our entire secondary and 1 less than our team. So their starting corners have more INTs than our entire defense and Tillman is 4 FFs away from our entire team.

We are not even close to being overall better than either team.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The Bears play a Cover 2 scheme like the one we abandoned when we brought in Nix. Not coincidentally, that's why Jauron coached there as well. They have elite pass coverage linebackers to lock down short routes, Tillman to take on the opponent's #1, and Peppers and occasionally McClellin to create pass pressure with their front four. And they absolutely FEAST on turnovers and special teams. They have seven, repeat SEVEN, Pick sixes. Their D has scored almost as many points as their running game.

[X-Era]

The Bears play a Cover 2 scheme like the one we abandoned when we brought in Nix. Not coincidentally, that's why Jauron coached there as well. They have elite pass coverage linebackers to lock down short routes, Tillman to take on the opponent's #1, and Peppers and occasionally McClellin to create pass pressure with their front four. And they absolutely FEAST on turnovers and special teams. They have seven, repeat SEVEN, Pick sixes. Their D has scored almost as many points as their running game.Better pass covering linebackers is something we badly need I agree. I feel Gilmore may be just fine against the #1's next year. He's already getting much better. The pass rush is an issue that is also getting better but isn't there yet. I hope that a new DC will bring more stunts or find other ways to free up our rushers. Many turnovers come as a function of pass rush pressure and solid coverage. Both have been lacking in most of our early games.

In the end I'm seeing LB'er again as a significant difference and need. I think we may be OK in the other areas as far as talent goes but we can always use a star here and there.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Better pass covering linebackers is something we badly need I agree. I feel Gilmore may be just fine against the #1's next year. He's already getting much better. The pass rush is an issue that is also getting better but isn't there yet. I hope that a new DC will bring more stunts or find other ways to free up our rushers. Many turnovers come as a function of pass rush pressure and solid coverage. Both have been lacking in most of our early games.

In the end I'm seeing LB'er again as a significant difference and need. I think we may be OK in the other areas as far as talent goes but we can always use a star here and there.

Right, linebacker play is a core to any defense but especially the one the Bears run and Wanny seems to be trying. The key element is that ALL the units are good, so they cover for each other. If the pass rush has a bad game, the linebackers can keep up with the coverage. If the DBs have a bad game, Peppers can get a strip-sack. That scheme is very much dependent on its talent.