If not Fitz, then who?

[OpIv37]

I seriously think Fitz will be back next year. I'm not defending him and I don't want him back, but think about it objectively. What are the realistic alternatives? Give me names that are:

a) realistically obtainable and
b) clearly better than Fitz

I see names like Alex Smith and Jay Cutler being thrown around. Smith is no better than Fitz- he's another stopgap at best. Cutler is more talented than Fitz- that's for damn sure- but he's also prone to some really awful games and hissy fits on the sidelines. Given Gailey's play-calling (assuming he's back), the defense's propensity for implosions and the lack of quality WR's, a couple of Cutler explosions would be inevitable. And that's again assuming that a) Chicago will move him and b) we can afford his contract.

Different isn't necessarily better. I'm so tired of switching QB's for the sake of switching. We need to find someone who is a clear improvement somehow. I know franchise QB's don't grow on trees, but there is no point in making another Collins to Johnson or Bledsoe to Losman or Edwards to Fitz type change. And if we draft someone, Fitz would be a far better mentor than Thigpen or TJax. So, there is no point to making a change until we have a clear upgrade, and I just don't see one out there right now.

[Night Train]

Probably a rookie with mobility and an actual arm. To be determined.


Russ Brandon is team President and runs this team now through Ralph/Littman. He also is in charge of marketing this team.

Go ahead and try to market/sell Fitz/Gailey/Nix to the ticket buying public after this junk.

Mission Impossible.

[THRILLHO]

I seriously think Fitz will be back next year. I'm not defending him and I don't want him back, but think about it objectively. What are the realistic alternatives? Give me names that are:

a) realistically obtainable and
b) clearly better than Fitz

I see names like Alex Smith and Jay Cutler being thrown around. Smith is no better than Fitz- he's another stopgap at best. Cutler is more talented than Fitz- that's for damn sure- but he's also prone to some really awful games and hissy fits on the sidelines. Given Gailey's play-calling (assuming he's back), the defense's propensity for implosions and the lack of quality WR's, a couple of Cutler explosions would be inevitable. And that's again assuming that a) Chicago will move him and b) we can afford his contract.

Different isn't necessarily better. I'm so tired of switching QB's for the sake of switching. We need to find someone who is a clear improvement somehow. I know franchise QB's don't grow on trees, but there is no point in making another Collins to Johnson or Bledsoe to Losman or Edwards to Fitz type change. And if we draft someone, Fitz would be a far better mentor than Thigpen or TJax. So, there is no point to making a change until we have a clear upgrade, and I just don't see one out there right now.

I don't see Cutler being moved out of Chicago. What about Rivers?

[Ginger Vitis]

1)Michael Vick
2) EJ Manuel/Tyler Wilson

[EDS]

I seriously think Fitz will be back next year. I'm not defending him and I don't want him back, but think about it objectively. What are the realistic alternatives? Give me names that are:

a) realistically obtainable and
b) clearly better than Fitz

I see names like Alex Smith and Jay Cutler being thrown around. Smith is no better than Fitz- he's another stopgap at best. Cutler is more talented than Fitz- that's for damn sure- but he's also prone to some really awful games and hissy fits on the sidelines. Given Gailey's play-calling (assuming he's back), the defense's propensity for implosions and the lack of quality WR's, a couple of Cutler explosions would be inevitable. And that's again assuming that a) Chicago will move him and b) we can afford his contract.

Different isn't necessarily better. I'm so tired of switching QB's for the sake of switching. We need to find someone who is a clear improvement somehow. I know franchise QB's don't grow on trees, but there is no point in making another Collins to Johnson or Bledsoe to Losman or Edwards to Fitz type change. And if we draft someone, Fitz would be a far better mentor than Thigpen or TJax. So, there is no point to making a change until we have a clear upgrade, and I just don't see one out there right now.

I agree that Nix/Gailey have now painted the Bills into a corner with few if any possible QB upgrades available. The only likely option os getting something out of the draft, though unfortunately this draft class does not seem as strong as the past two. If they do their homework and get lucky they might get a Nick Foles type of development guy.

I want absolutely nothing to do with Vick. I would take a chance on Rivers but would not trade anything of value to get him.

[OpIv37]

1)Michael Vick
2) EJ Manuel/Tyler Wilson

You are crazy if you think Vick is any better than Fitz at this point in his career.

[TacklingDummy]

. What about Rivers? is he a FA? If not, I'd give SD a 3rd, maybe a 2nd, for him. It couldn't hurt. And I'd still draft a QB, named Barkley, with the 1st pick.

[OpIv37]

I don't see Cutler being moved out of Chicago. What about Rivers?

I see Rivers as a case of being better, but still not good enough. He'd probably get a few more wins than Fitz but would struggle to get us into the playoffs and still won't win a SB.

[Ginger Vitis]

You are crazy if you think Vick is any better than Fitz at this point in his career.

Well you did say "reasonably obtainable" and going on the assumption Gailey is not back next season I do think Vick is a better QB than Fitzpatrick

[OpIv37]

Well you did say "reasonably obtainable" and going on the assumption Gailey is not back next season I do think Vick is a better QB than Fitzpatrick

I disagree. His legs aren't the asset that they were in the past and he's just as turnover-prone as Fitz, if not more so.

[Typ0]

Probably a rookie with mobility and an actual arm. To be determined.


Russ Brandon is team President and runs this team now through Ralph/Littman. He also is in charge of marketing this team.

Go ahead and try to market/sell Fitz/Gailey/Nix to the ticket buying public after this junk.

Mission Impossible.

They do have something right though! This thing you are highlighting...well they have gotten to a point they can't sell change either because they have done it too many times. I don't think your argument holds water really...they need to stick it out with someone but they need the right guy to be there not the wrong guy!

[gebobs]

You are crazy if you think Vick is any better than Fitz at this point in his career.
Vick isn't what he was, but he's much better than Fitz. Heck, I'd sign Vick's mother to take over for Fitz.

Still, I'd rather muddle through than get that jackalope.

[Saratoga Slim]

I seriously think Fitz will be back next year. I'm not defending him and I don't want him back, but think about it objectively. What are the realistic alternatives? Give me names that are:

a) realistically obtainable and
b) clearly better than Fitz

I see names like Alex Smith and Jay Cutler being thrown around. Smith is no better than Fitz- he's another stopgap at best. Cutler is more talented than Fitz- that's for damn sure- but he's also prone to some really awful games and hissy fits on the sidelines. Given Gailey's play-calling (assuming he's back), the defense's propensity for implosions and the lack of quality WR's, a couple of Cutler explosions would be inevitable. And that's again assuming that a) Chicago will move him and b) we can afford his contract.

Different isn't necessarily better. I'm so tired of switching QB's for the sake of switching. We need to find someone who is a clear improvement somehow. I know franchise QB's don't grow on trees, but there is no point in making another Collins to Johnson or Bledsoe to Losman or Edwards to Fitz type change. And if we draft someone, Fitz would be a far better mentor than Thigpen or TJax. So, there is no point to making a change until we have a clear upgrade, and I just don't see one out there right now.

Good post Op. I agree, change for the sake of change will only set us back further. I think Fitz is close to as good as it gets outside the top ten QB category. And unfortunately, it's really only the teams with a top ten QB that are consistently winning. No point in switching to another retread. And I don't see a rookie in this years class that would be an automatic upgrade.

[DraftBoy]

The veteran options;
Tavaris Jackson, Matt Flynn, Kirk Cousins, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, Mike Vick, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates

The rookie options:
Geno Smith, Tyler Wilson, Matt Barkley, Zac Dysert, Ryan Nassib, EJ Manuel, Landry Jones, Mike Glennon, Sean Renfree, Matt Scott, Ryan Aplin

[justasportsfan]

anyone who can hit a deep ball. With a running game like we have, it will open things up for the deep ball. With Fitz it's the same crap. He cant make teams pay with a deep ball if they play to stop the run.

[The King]

We have to pull a Redskins... I don't see any other way. We need to land one of the top two QB's in this draft. At any cost.

[Night Train]

We have to pull a Redskins... I don't see any other way. We need to land one of the top two QB's in this draft. At any cost.

None of them are rated highly like Luck or RGIII.

They'll all be there when our pick comes up and even then, do you pass on a Te'o to pick Geno Smith,Tyler Wilson or Matt Barkley ?? Might have just as decent an option in Round 2 or 3.

[OpIv37]

The veteran options;
Tavaris Jackson, Matt Flynn, Kirk Cousins, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, Mike Vick, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates

The rookie options:
Geno Smith, Tyler Wilson, Matt Barkley, Zac Dysert, Ryan Nassib, EJ Manuel, Landry Jones, Mike Glennon, Sean Renfree, Matt Scott, Ryan Aplin
A few of those vets are better than Fitz but none are good enough to win long-term. If they were, they wouldn't be available.

As far as rookies, the only one I really know a lot about is Matt Barkley. His stats were down this year, and recent USC quarterbacks have not fared well in the NFL. Palmer has had a decent career. Leinart is a flat-out bust, Sanchez is mediocre at best. Cassel sucks. I think USC is just loaded with talent and plays a lot of soft schedules, and the QB's don't do well when the competition is more even. So, I'd stay away from Barkley with our #1 pick. If he drops and we can get him for less by trading back in the first, then maybe I'd consider it. But it still seems risky.

I know Geno Smith has torn it up in college, but I've heard people question whether he has the right size and tools for the NFL. But again, I don't know- I've never really watched him so I'm just going off what I've read.

[The King]

I think Te'o is the exception. But they can't wait another year without a QB. This fanbase will burn down the Ralph.

[The King]

The veteran options;
Tavaris Jackson, Matt Flynn, Kirk Cousins, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, Mike Vick, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates

The rookie options:
Geno Smith, Tyler Wilson, Matt Barkley, Zac Dysert, Ryan Nassib, EJ Manuel, Landry Jones, Mike Glennon, Sean Renfree, Matt Scott, Ryan Aplin

I cant see the Pats letting Mallet go. He looked really good in the PS.

[OpIv37]

None of them are rated highly like Luck or RGIII.

They'll all be there when our pick comes up and even then, do you pass on a Te'o to pick Geno Smith,Tyler Wilson or Matt Barkley ?? Might have just as decent an option in Round 2 or 3.

If by some miracle, Te'o falls to us, he absolutely has to be the pick.

[DraftBoy]

I cant see the Pats letting Mallet go. He looked really good in the PS.

Same was said about Hoyer.

[Night Train]

If by some miracle, Te'o falls to us, he absolutely has to be the pick.

Agreed.

The Bills cannot reach for a QB or we'll have another Losman situation on our hands where the team tosses him in way too early and he's ruined, sinking the team with him.

Still, even the transition QB CANNOT be Fitz. He's clearly getting worse and I don't care about his cap number. Means nothing.

[TacklingDummy]

We have to pull a Redskins... I don't see any other way. We need to land one of the top two QB's in this draft. At any cost.

Theres no RG3 or Luck in this draft to do that for.

[DraftBoy]

If by some miracle, Te'o falls to us, he absolutely has to be the pick.

Won't be a miracle, he's not seen as a Top 10 pick. Read Breer's article on what NFL evaluators say;
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000107240/article/manti-teo-of-notre-dame-projects-as-longterm-linebacker-in-nfl?campaign=Twitter_Breer


"He's certainly a very good first- and second-down player, with the size and strength to meet blockers," one AFC executive said. "And he did improve this year in coverage, got his hands on the ball, pick it off. He just worked to improve his game. Last year, you saw a guy who you thought might be able to do it. This year, you got more. He may be better in zone than man, but he's instinctive enough to consistently be in the right place at the right time."

Trouble for Te'o is, typically, those types of players don't go in the top 10.

[DraftBoy]

Further per Breer's article from an AFC Scouting Director;

"You look and see even Ray Lewis was taken in the 20s, because he was too small," an AFC college scouting director said. "Sometimes you feel like, when you're looking at that middle linebacker position, you can sacrifice some of the athletic ability to have the guy who can run your defense. That's the thing with Manti. He has the size and athleticism to be picked around 15, but he may go higher than that."

The scouting director explained why with an example: "You see a defense where money's invested on the line and you have horses, like a Buffalo, that's missing that component in the middle, and they could say, 'Hey, we can live with his limitations,' maybe take him seventh or eighth to plug that hole, and walk away with a damn good player."

The college director said Te'o, on tape, looks like a "bigger Lofa Tatupu" who can have a Tedy Bruschi-like impact in being a player that a club can build around. And Te'o's leadership ability -- being the centerpiece in the rise of a defense that's been lacking over the past decade, and going undefeated -- won't go unnoticed in April.

[The King]

Agreed.

The Bills cannot reach for a QB or we'll have another Losman situation on our hands where the team tosses him in way too early and he's ruined, sinking the team with him.

Still, even the transition QB CANNOT be Fitz. He's clearly getting worse and I don't care about his cap number. Means nothing.

I feel the same way. I am at such a loss. I just want them to do SOMETHING!

[JoeMama]

2013 is a down year for quarterback prospects.

There are plenty of guys who look worthy of taking a flyer on, but no real "sure things" of year's past like Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, or Robert Griffin III.

The top five guys I can think of off the top of my head are Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, Landry Jones, Tyler Bray, etc, etc...

And truthfully, do any of those guys really stand out to you?

Would you hedge your bets on any of those guys developing into a franchise quarterback?

I certainly can't envision it.

I think we may have to bite the bullet and forego an early round quarterback for the umpteenth million time. A guy like Manti T'eo sure would look good in a Bills uniform. Anything to rid ourselves of that awful Kelvin Sheppard; the worst middle linebacker we've had in years.

[Bill Cody]

I think we may have to bite the bullet and forego an early round quarterback for the umpteenth million time.


no

[The King]

Barkley scares me. Too many distractions in Southern Cal, I dont believe these QB's focus enough on Football.

[Bill Cody]

I seriously think Fitz will be back next year. I'm not defending him and I don't want him back, but think about it objectively. What are the realistic alternatives? Give me names that are:

a) realistically obtainable and
b) clearly better than Fitz



I'd kick the tires on Matt Flynn, I think he's clearly better than Fitz from the times I've seen him which isn't a lot

But I've been hearing this "it's a down year for QB's" stuff virtually every year. We're playing a 6th or 7th round guy, whatever Fitz is, you're telling me there's nothing with better potential out there than a noodle armed guy from Harvard? Not buying it.

[Jeff1220]

Flacco will probably get the tag, but he has not gotten an extension and is scheduled to be a FA.

[trapezeus]

this is just so dire. Fitz is a capable backup. a guy who could win 2-3 games if your starter went down.

The current draft class doesn't show a lot of first day starter materially, namely at the position we are selecting from at 10-13.

The free agency/disgruntled QB class is non-existent. Only guy worth considering is rivers. Though i don't like the way he throws, he had success when he had a good TE in his prime and an amazing running game. He'd get that with buffalo. The other options suck
1. Romo is fitz on a better team over a long period of time with zero ability to win a big game in a clutch moment. Have the cowboys done anything that doesn't resemble the bills of late? They miss the playoffs, they can't win big games, they have a couple interesting moments in a long season and they go away. and when they do have a playoff game, romo epically blows it.
2. Vick is fitz but injury prone. Maybe he could do marginally better with the bills line blocking and the bills running game running, but he will get hurt. You know this. re-enter fitz...or not because fitz's contract with vick's contract is unsustainable. So enter T Jax. a guy who couldn't learn a playbook in 13 weeks when everyone wanted a better option than fitz. No thanks.

So we have to pick a young qb and hope these draft morons find the right one or we need to pick a retread and hope he gets a lot of magic.

either way its a lot of hope for a team that seems to thrive in not having hope.

I see next year as another 5-11 year. Chan gets fired midway during the season after dropping very winnable games. Wanny takes over. and most of us will all say, "why didn't you do this in 2012 when we all knew this was the case." We'll have a new coach come in and want to pick his qb. this 2013 drafted qb will never get a shot to succeed.

End of story: bills won't be sniffing adequacy until 2016...and who knows if they'll even be the buffalo bills.

[DraftBoy]

2013 is a down year for quarterback prospects.

There are plenty of guys who look worthy of taking a flyer on, but no real "sure things" of year's past like Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, or Robert Griffin III.

The top five guys I can think of off the top of my head are Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, Landry Jones, Tyler Bray, etc, etc...

And truthfully, do any of those guys really stand out to you?

Would you hedge your bets on any of those guys developing into a franchise quarterback?

I certainly can't envision it.

I think we may have to bite the bullet and forego an early round quarterback for the umpteenth million time. A guy like Manti T'eo sure would look good in a Bills uniform. Anything to rid ourselves of that awful Kelvin Sheppard; the worst middle linebacker we've had in years.

I'd ride with Geno for sure.

[Bill Cody]

this is just so dire. Fitz is a capable backup. a guy who could win 2-3 games if your starter went down.

The current draft class doesn't show a lot of first day starter materially, namely at the position we are selecting from at 10-13.

The free agency/disgruntled QB class is non-existent. Only guy worth considering is rivers. Though i don't like the way he throws, he had success when he had a good TE in his prime and an amazing running game. He'd get that with buffalo. The other options suck
1. Romo is fitz on a better team over a long period of time with zero ability to win a big game in a clutch moment. Have the cowboys done anything that doesn't resemble the bills of late? They miss the playoffs, they can't win big games, they have a couple interesting moments in a long season and they go away. and when they do have a playoff game, romo epically blows it.
2. Vick is fitz but injury prone. Maybe he could do marginally better with the bills line blocking and the bills running game running, but he will get hurt. You know this. re-enter fitz...or not because fitz's contract with vick's contract is unsustainable. So enter T Jax. a guy who couldn't learn a playbook in 13 weeks when everyone wanted a better option than fitz. No thanks.

So we have to pick a young qb and hope these draft morons find the right one or we need to pick a retread and hope he gets a lot of magic.

either way its a lot of hope for a team that seems to thrive in not having hope.

I see next year as another 5-11 year. Chan gets fired midway during the season after dropping very winnable games. Wanny takes over. and most of us will all say, "why didn't you do this in 2012 when we all knew this was the case." We'll have a new coach come in and want to pick his qb. this 2013 drafted qb will never get a shot to succeed.

End of story: bills won't be sniffing adequacy until 2016...and who knows if they'll even be the buffalo bills.


I agree it is dire. But it's not so much the length of time to wait it's the lack of hope. I refuse to believe that the Bills will stay with Fitz and Gailey. That would result in a huge rush to the exits by the fans. No way on Rivers or Romo, both of those guys are just good enough to lose. It's actually easier to hang in with a young player that you can grow with. I'm thinking Tyler Wilson or EJ Manuel may be there when we pick. No way we don't make QB the top priority, unthinkable.

[ThunderGun]

I don't see the Bears moving Cutler. They haven't looked great on offense, but their OLine is a trainwreck, and it has looked much, much worse whenever Cutler has missed time. I think they know that he isn't their problem.

But more to your point, I 100% agree that change, for the sake of change, accomplishes nothing. Fitz clearly isn't the answer, but neither is Alex Smith (who, my gut tells me, will be in a Bills uniform next year), or any of the other scrubs who have been mentioned on here recently (Matt Moore, Vick, Rivers).

I hope we draft a QB....but I also wouldn't pass on the chance to draft Te'o if we have a shot at him. I don't know if there are any QB's that I'd love in the top 10 anyways. I don't know what the answer is.

[Bill Cody]

I don't know if there are any QB's that I'd love in the top 10 anyways. I don't know what the answer is.


The new CBA allows you to take a shot and it isn't as fatal as it used to be. We must take a shot in the draft. Must. Will.

[The King]

The new CBA allows you to take a shot and it isn't as fatal as it used to be. We must take a shot in the draft. Must. Will.
The time lost with the wrong QB is the biggest risk.

[cookie G]

2013 is a down year for quarterback prospects.

There are plenty of guys who look worthy of taking a flyer on, but no real "sure things" of year's past like Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, or Robert Griffin III.

The top five guys I can think of off the top of my head are Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, Landry Jones, Tyler Bray, etc, etc...

And truthfully, do any of those guys really stand out to you?

Would you hedge your bets on any of those guys developing into a franchise quarterback?

I certainly can't envision it.

I think we may have to bite the bullet and forego an early round quarterback for the umpteenth million time. A guy like Manti T'eo sure would look good in a Bills uniform. Anything to rid ourselves of that awful Kelvin Sheppard; the worst middle linebacker we've had in years.

As Merk said elsewhere, there may not be a sure fire franchise QB, but there are probably 2 or 3 that can and will be quality NFL starters. It is their job to figure out who.

I don't trust Buddy to do it, not any more. He's too concerned about building a great defense on paper, but a below average one on the field.

He'll go through the motions. He'll interview a few of the prospects, he'll get a few reports, but in the end, you'll hear "well, there wasn't anyone we really liked in the first." In the 2nd round, it'll be "well, yeah, there were a few guys we liked, but you know we needed a safety to build on our crappy defense, and you can never miss on too many crappy DB's."

Seen it too many times to believe he's actually performing due diligence.

On the other hand, Polian isn't doing anything right now besides making the odd appearance on the sports channels.

He gets hired as a consultant with the single responsibility of evaluating the 2013 QB class. It isn't unprecedented. He hired Bill Walsh to evaluate Manning and Leaf before that draft.

This would be a more difficult task, because he will have more to evaluate. but when Polian puts his mind to something like this, he's usually successful.

If, after that, he doesn't see anyone worth drafting, then fine. But I have the feeling he will find someone.

But this idea of continually using the major assets for the defense, and watching it become no more than average, while the offense gets a running back and a bunch of castoffs, has been going on for a decade, and more pointedly since 2006.

Buddy's had 3 years to build a defense, its time to let them sink or swim.

it is time to go in a different direction.

[ThunderGun]

The new CBA allows you to take a shot and it isn't as fatal as it used to be. We must take a shot in the draft. Must. Will.

That's true. If you swing and miss on a QB in the 1st round, it doesn't set you back financially the way it used to. However, it will still set you back at least 2 years, probably 3. Think about it....a GM doesn't want to admit that they completely blew a 1st round pick, so they will stick with a QB as long as possible, to try to prove themselves right (Sanchez?). So unless they are completely sold on a QB prospect, I don't want them to pick them in the 1st round. In the 2nd round, you can swing and miss, and then take another QB next year (like the Panthers did with Clausen and Cam Newton).

[SABURZFAN]

they'll just waste another draft pick acquiring a QB who will be inactive the whole season. that seems to be the norm in Buffalo.

[BertSquirtgum]

I seriously think Fitz will be back next year. I'm not defending him and I don't want him back, but think about it objectively. What are the realistic alternatives? Give me names that are:

a) realistically obtainable and
b) clearly better than Fitz

I see names like Alex Smith and Jay Cutler being thrown around. Smith is no better than Fitz- he's another stopgap at best. Cutler is more talented than Fitz- that's for damn sure- but he's also prone to some really awful games and hissy fits on the sidelines. Given Gailey's play-calling (assuming he's back), the defense's propensity for implosions and the lack of quality WR's, a couple of Cutler explosions would be inevitable. And that's again assuming that a) Chicago will move him and b) we can afford his contract.

Different isn't necessarily better. I'm so tired of switching QB's for the sake of switching. We need to find someone who is a clear improvement somehow. I know franchise QB's don't grow on trees, but there is no point in making another Collins to Johnson or Bledsoe to Losman or Edwards to Fitz type change. And if we draft someone, Fitz would be a far better mentor than Thigpen or TJax. So, there is no point to making a change until we have a clear upgrade, and I just don't see one out there right now.

Michael Vick.

[BertSquirtgum]

You are crazy if you think Vick is any better than Fitz at this point in his career.

You crazy if you don't think he is better.

[gebobs]

You crazy if you don't think he is better.
Definitely. Fitz is absolute garbage. Vick has innate talent that Fitz just never had. But if the Bills signed Vick, I would leave and never come back.

[BertSquirtgum]

I don't want Vick but if the choice was keeping Fitz or picking up Vick. I would choose the dog killer all day. He's made his amends and currently has pet dogs. He's made mistakes, that for sure but he has more talent in his pinky than Fitz has in his whole body.

[X-Era]

If Te'o is there, take him. If not, take Geno Smith. I think if it's still Gailey, Geno could be effective in our spread. His better accuracy on the long throws alone could mean a more potent offense. I'm concerned with his mental markup but we know Gailey likes to do the play calling and doesn't like to let the QB do it so we maybe fine there.

[BertSquirtgum]

I want Te'o with the 1st round pick. The Bills can find just as good of a quarterback in the second as they could in the 11-15th spot.

[OpIv37]

You crazy if you don't think he is better.

He's not.

He turns the ball over like crazy. And he's hurt all the time. He's Fitz without the durability.

And he's 32. He's got 2-3 years left before he declines even further than he already has.

[BertSquirtgum]

I can't defend Vick for the turnovers this year. He's had a terrible line the past two years and that's the reason he's been hurt. As I said before, if my choice was Fitzputrid or Vick, I'm choosing Vick all day. He has a rocket arm and could hit TJ Graham for long balls all day. He also could get out of being sacked a lot more often than Fitz. Fitz just goes down or runs forward. He never moves to the left or right and he has zero pocket presence.

Right, he's 32 he has two or three good years left in him. He could be the perfect stop gap to let a drafted rookie learn behind.

[OpIv37]

I can't defend Vick for the turnovers this year. He's had a terrible line the past two years and that's the reason he's been hurt. As I said before, if my choice was Fitzputrid or Vick, I'm choosing Vick all day. He has a rocket arm and could hit TJ Graham for long balls all day. He also could get out of being sacked a lot more often than Fitz. Fitz just goes down or runs forward. He never moves to the left or right and he has zero pocket presence.

here's the issue though: do you think we'd have a shot at the SB or even the playoffs with Vick? I'm not convinced. I just don't want another lateral move toward more mediocrity so we can have this thread talking about Vick or Alex Smith or Cutler or someone similar in two years. I want Fitz gone, but only if we can find someone who is clearly good enough to win, and I just don't see it from any of the guys who may be available.

[BertSquirtgum]

I believe there's one hell of a better chance of making the playoffs with Vick at quarterback instead of throwing a rookie in there or keeping the slum bum Fitz.

[Mr. Pink]

Michael Vick is a shell of his former self and has turned into a turnover machine.

No thanks.

[Saratoga Slim]

anyone who can hit a deep ball. With a running game like we have, it will open things up for the deep ball. With Fitz it's the same crap. He cant make teams pay with a deep ball if they play to stop the run.

JP Losman is probably available.

[gebobs]

Michael Vick is a shell of his former self and has turned into a turnover machine.

No thanks.
Certainly no thanks, but not for the reason you gave. Vick might be turning the ball over but even this year it's not with quite the same dedication to craft that Fitz has through out his tenure in Buffalo.

In 2012, Vick has an INT% of 2.8% compared to Fitz's 4.7% over his Bills career.

In 2012, Vick has a Fumble rate (fumbles/[sacks+rush]) of 11.9% compared to Fitz's 16.9% over his Bills career. And, of course, Vick has more upside running than Fitz. Fitz looks like a pansy when he runs.

[better days]

When Chan & Fitz replaced Dick & Trent, I was happy about the fact I could watch exciting games again.

Well, that is no longer enough after 3 years. Time for a change again.

[Ginger Vitis]

I want Fitz gone, but only if we can find someone who is clearly good enough to win,

And if you are the GM of the Bills how are you going to get a QB who is considerably better than Fitzpatrick? Good luck getting a GM who has a "Top 10" quarterback trading his "Top 10" QB to the Bills.. So what other option do you have? Drafting one? That is a option but in the meantime I dont see anything wrong getting a QB in Buffalo who is at least a "slight" upgrade over Fitzpatrick

[OpIv37]

And if you are the GM of the Bills how are you going to get a QB who is considerably better than Fitzpatrick? Good luck getting a GM who has a "Top 10" quarterback trading his "Top 10" QB to the Bills.. So what other option do you have? Drafting one? That is a option but in the meantime I dont see anything wrong getting a QB in Buffalo who is at least a "slight" upgrade over Fitzpatrick

You don't see anything wrong with having to eat Fitz's cap hit plus the cap hit of a replacement who is considered "slightly" better? That would result in far too much cap tied up in a QB position that is still mediocre. It's a recipe for disaster.

[Ginger Vitis]

You don't see anything wrong with having to eat Fitz's cap hit plus the cap hit of a replacement who is considered "slightly" better?

No

[OpIv37]

No

Well, that cap is money that can't be spent elsewhere, so say goodbye to Wood and Byrd and forget about bringing in any significant FA's.

This is the exact mentality that I am complaining about. We all know Fitz sucks, but replacing him for the sake of replacing him isn't going to get us what we want: more wins and playoffs.

[EDS]

And if you are the GM of the Bills how are you going to get a QB who is considerably better than Fitzpatrick? Good luck getting a GM who has a "Top 10" quarterback trading his "Top 10" QB to the Bills.. So what other option do you have? Drafting one? That is a option but in the meantime I dont see anything wrong getting a QB in Buffalo who is at least a "slight" upgrade over Fitzpatrick

You say this, and while true for the most part, it is worth noting that top 10 QBs do change teams for various reasons. Manning went to Denver this past off-season. Brees to NO previously. Maybe Rivers just needs a change of scenary and a better supporting cast to get back to where he was a few seasons ago (i.e., a top 10 QB). Buddy should know his makeup as well as anyone outside the Sand Diego organization.

Now, do I think Rivers is the answer? I don't know. But it is not my day job to know.

[DraftBoy]

Well, that cap is money that can't be spent elsewhere, so say goodbye to Wood and Byrd and forget about bringing in any significant FA's.

You know this because you've done actual cap calculations and know how much the market has set the price for the "replacement" QB and Wood and Byrd?

[BertSquirtgum]

You don't see anything wrong with having to eat Fitz's cap hit plus the cap hit of a replacement who is considered "slightly" better? That would result in far too much cap tied up in a QB position that is still mediocre. It's a recipe for disaster.

It's not our money. Who the **** cares what the cap hit is?

[OpIv37]

You know this because you've done actual cap calculations and know how much the market has set the price for the "replacement" QB and Wood and Byrd?

Of course not, but think about it realistically. Cutler, Vick, Alex Smith... these guys aren't going to play for free. We'd have dead cap from Fitz's contract, plus Mario Williams' cap hit..... between Fitz and a replacement, how much cap are you willing to devote to a mediocre QB? You can get away with the QB position having a $17 million cap hit if the QB is Manning or Brady or Brees, but not if it's Alex Smith, Vick or Cutler.

[Ginger Vitis]

Maybe Rivers just needs a change of scenary and a better supporting cast to get back to where he was a few seasons ago (i.e., a top 10 QB).


This is a plausible option one I wouldnt mind the Bills exploring as long as they dont give up 2 1st round picks or the farm for Rivers

[OpIv37]

It's not our money. Who the **** cares what the cap hit is?

Because, genius, cap wasted on the QB position is cap that can't be spent to re-sign guys like Wood or Byrd, or bring in a FA linebacker, etc.

I don't give a **** about the real money laid out because that's not my money. I care about the cap hit because it hurts the team's ability to upgrade other areas.

I can't believe I actually have to spell this out. It's a very basic concept.

[BertSquirtgum]

Because, genius, cap wasted on the QB position is cap that can't be spent to re-sign guys like Wood or Byrd, or bring in a FA linebacker, etc.

I don't give a **** about the real money laid out because that's not my money. I care about the cap hit because it hurts the team's ability to upgrade other areas.

I can't believe I actually have to spell this out. It's a very basic concept.

Why are you worried about signing Wood genius? He signed signed through the 2013 season.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe you're thinking of Levitre?

[OpIv37]

Why are you worried about signing Wood genius? He signed signed through the 2013 season.

Fine, bad example with the player- but the point holds true. We have guys to re-sign and we have holes to fill. Eat Fitz's cap hit and tack on a few more million for a guy like Cutler or Vick and you have a LOT of cap tied up in a QB position that's still mediocre. That's cap money that can't be spent to improve the team in other areas.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I can't defend Vick for the turnovers this year. He's had a terrible line the past two years and that's the reason he's been hurt. As I said before, if my choice was Fitzputrid or Vick, I'm choosing Vick all day. He has a rocket arm and could hit TJ Graham for long balls all day. He also could get out of being sacked a lot more often than Fitz. Fitz just goes down or runs forward. He never moves to the left or right and he has zero pocket presence.

Right, he's 32 he has two or three good years left in him. He could be the perfect stop gap to let a drafted rookie learn behind.

This is a continuation of the same trend since Flutie. The Bills and their fans constantly overreact to that QB's flaw and ignore everything else.

Flutie was too short and weak-armed so we got Johnson
Johnson couldn't read defenses and held the ball too long so we got Bledsoe
Bledsoe was an immobile statue so we got Losman
Losman couldn't hit short throws and locked down his primary target so we got Edwards
Edwards was too cowardly to throw downfield so we got Fitzpatrick
Now Fitz is too noodly so we want Vick?

Vick is injury-prone, holds the ball forever thinking he can escape any sack, and is just as inaccurate as Fitz. We need a clear upgrade, as Vick is a lateral move at best.

[Ginger Vitis]

This is a continuation of the same trend since Flutie. The Bills and their fans constantly overreact to that QB's flaw and ignore everything else.

Flutie was too short and weak-armed so we got Johnson
Johnson couldn't read defenses and held the ball too long so we got Bledsoe
Bledsoe was an immobile statue so we got Losman
Losman couldn't hit short throws and locked down his primary target so we got Edwards
Edwards was too cowardly to throw downfield so we got Fitzpatrick
Now Fitz is too noodly so we want Vick?

Vick is injury-prone, holds the ball forever thinking he can escape any sack, and is just as inaccurate as Fitz. We need a clear upgrade, as Vick is a lateral move at best.

You cant give up and live with the status quo.. A GM has to keep trying at the QB position until he gets it right

[DraftBoy]

Of course not, but think about it realistically. Cutler, Vick, Alex Smith... these guys aren't going to play for free. We'd have dead cap from Fitz's contract, plus Mario Williams' cap hit..... between Fitz and a replacement, how much cap are you willing to devote to a mediocre QB? You can get away with the QB position having a $17 million cap hit if the QB is Manning or Brady or Brees, but not if it's Alex Smith, Vick or Cutler.

All of that is speculation, without looking it up do you even know how much cap we have right now as of today?

[OpIv37]

All of that is speculation, without looking it up do you even know how much cap we have right now as of today?

No.

Speculation it may be, but very reasonable speculation. If you have some numbers to prove me wrong, out with it, or else you are just being argumentative.

[DraftBoy]

No.

Speculation it may be, but very reasonable speculation. If you have some numbers to prove me wrong, out with it, or else you are just being argumentative.

There is nothing reasonable about it if you don't have any idea what the ****ing numbers are.

[OpIv37]

There is nothing reasonable about it if you don't have any idea what the ****ing numbers are.

Really?

I know we gave Fitz a big contract last year. I know we gave Mario a big contract. I know we extended Stevie and Freddie. So, while I may not know the exact numbers, I have a pretty good idea.

And anyway, numbers aside, how much cap are you willing to spend on a QB like Vick or Alex Smith? Just because we may technically have the cap available doesn't mean eating Fitz's cap hit and signing a guy like that is a reasonable way to spend it.

[DraftBoy]

No.

Speculation it may be, but very reasonable speculation. If you have some numbers to prove me wrong, out with it, or else you are just being argumentative.

And for the love of Christ it took me 5 mins to look up the numbers;

Fitz Cap next year-$10,450,000
Bills Estimated 2013 Cap Spent-$83,645,860
2012 NFL Cap (Adjusted for Bills)-$134,541,902
Highest Paid Safety in NFL-$8,000,000 per year

So let's assume the cap doesn't move a single dollar, the Bills have roughly $50,896,042 in room to add 6 draft picks, a QB, and Byrd and you want to sit there and tell us your speculation is even in the realm of reasonable?

- - - Updated - - -


Really?

I know we gave Fitz a big contract last year. I know we gave Mario a big contract. I know we extended Stevie and Freddie. So, while I may not know the exact numbers, I have a pretty good idea.

And anyway, numbers aside, how much cap are you willing to spend on a QB like Vick or Alex Smith? Just because we may technically have the cap available doesn't mean eating Fitz's cap hit and signing a guy like that is a reasonable way to spend it.

No you don't have any idea.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You cant give up and live with the status quo.. A GM has to keep trying at the QB position until he gets it right

Point to the part where I said that. Obviously we need a change, but people are focusing on one part of Vick (his strong arm) and ignoring all his gaping flaws. There's a reason he's gotten two (going on three) coaches fired. He had one season where he looked like he was putting it together and then promptly regressed into what we have today.

[OpIv37]

And for the love of Christ it took me 5 mins to look up the numbers;

Fitz Cap next year-$10,450,000
Bills Estimated 2013 Cap Spent-$83,645,860
2012 NFL Cap (Adjusted for Bills)-$134,541,902
Highest Paid Safety in NFL-$8,000,000 per year

So let's assume the cap doesn't move a single dollar, the Bills have roughly $50,896,042 in room to add 6 draft picks, a QB, and Byrd and you want to sit there and tell us your speculation is even in the realm of reasonable?

- - - Updated - - -



No you don't have any idea.

So, Byrd is the only contract expiring this year? The Bills don't have anyone else to replace or resign? Ok.....

And once again, let's say we cut Fitz and eat the $10.5 million.... then sign Vick. I'll go conservative and say he signs for $4 million a year. That's $14.5 million tied up in the QB position to have Michael Vick starting. Even if the cap space is available, that's a stupid way to use it.

[Ginger Vitis]

There's a reason he's gotten two (going on three) coaches fired.

Juan Castillo has played a big part in Andy Reid potentially being fired..Jason Peters getting hurt etc etc

[gebobs]

Point to the part where I said that. Obviously we need a change, but people are focusing on one part of Vick (his strong arm) and ignoring all his gaping flaws. There's a reason he's gotten two (going on three) coaches fired. He had one season where he looked like he was putting it together and then promptly regressed into what we have today.No way on Vick. My only point bringing him up is that Fitzpatrick is worse than a washed-up quarterback and dog killer.

[DraftBoy]

So, Byrd is the only contract expiring this year? The Bills don't have anyone else to replace or resign? Ok.....

And once again, let's say we cut Fitz and eat the $10.5 million.... then sign Vick. I'll go conservative and say he signs for $4 million a year. That's $14.5 million tied up in the QB position to have Michael Vick starting. Even if the cap space is available, that's a stupid way to use it.

Are you really continuing with this logic? Do you even know the other Bills FA without looking them up (and yes I do). Its Urbik, Levitre, Spencer Johnson, Donald Jones, David Nelson, Leodis McKelvin, Shawne Merriman, Kyle Moore, Bryan Scott, and Tavaris Jackson and a bunch of end of the roster scrubs. Why do you not even attempt to look these things up before you speculate blindly and incorrectly? Nelson, Urbik, and Jones are all RFA's and will be tendered. None of those guys outside of Levitre is a high priced or can't lose FA.

You cut Fitz its only $10 not $10.5. Ok so $14.0 used on QB with 46 million and change left...not worried at all.

[OpIv37]

Are you really continuing with this logic? Do you even know the other Bills FA without looking them up (and yes I do). Its Urbik, Levitre, Spencer Johnson, Donald Jones, David Nelson, Leodis McKelvin, Shawne Merriman, Kyle Moore, Bryan Scott, and Tavaris Jackson and a bunch of end of the roster scrubs. Why do you not even attempt to look these things up before you speculate blindly and incorrectly? Nelson, Urbik, and Jones are all RFA's and will be tendered. None of those guys outside of Levitre is a high priced or can't lose FA.

You cut Fitz its only $10 not $10.5. Ok so $14.0 used on QB with 46 million and change left...not worried at all.

I completely disagree. You may have $500k in the bank- that doesn't make it smart to pay someone $40,000 for a Chevy Aveo.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Juan Castillo has played a big part in Andy Reid potentially being fired..Jason Peters getting hurt etc etc

Castillo was Reid's promotion, and he was fired when they were 3-3 on a bye week. They are 1-6 since. Vick having 9 picks and 10 fumbles in 9 games is the bigger reason.


No way on Vick. My only point bringing him up is that Fitzpatrick is worse than a washed-up quarterback and dog killer.

Ok, and? He's better than Fitz in a handful of areas (stronger arm, faster legs) and worse in others (older, injury prone, takes more sacks). I think it would end up a wash, at best.

[BertSquirtgum]

So, Byrd is the only contract expiring this year? The Bills don't have anyone else to replace or resign? Ok.....

And once again, let's say we cut Fitz and eat the $10.5 million.... then sign Vick. I'll go conservative and say he signs for $4 million a year. That's $14.5 million tied up in the QB position to have Michael Vick starting. Even if the cap space is available, that's a stupid way to use it.

If Fitz is cut, he is not due all 10 million. I think he would only get his 6,200,000 in guaranteed bonus's.

[OpIv37]

If Fitz is cut, he is not due all 10 million. I think he would only get his 6,200,000 in guaranteed bonus's.

Maybe, but guaranteed bonuses aren't necessarily the same as cap hit. I think the bonus money is usually amortized over the life of the contract, but if a player is cut, the remainder of the guaranteed money counts against the cap in the year that the player gets cut. I'm not sure though- it's very complicated.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm not sure though-


This is why Draftboy has pwned you many times over the years

[OpIv37]

This is why Draftboy has pwned you many times over the years

Interesting and intelligent contribution to the conversation.....

Do you have something to add, or do you just want to sit there on the sidelines and use quotes out of context so you can take pot shots at the people actually playing the game?

[notacon]

Anyone who says that drafting the "wrong" guy is worse than sticking with Fitz is THE reason this team has not had a QB for approaching two decades now.

Washington had it right last year. Sell the farm for the guy you want...and then STILL draft another QB in the same draft.

Brillant.

Or...look at Denver. They have drafted as many QB's in the first round in the past 6 years than the Bills have in 52 years.

They trade and bring in new QB's like a real team does, that recognizes that QB is THE most important position in ANY team sport. Without a QB in the NFL today, you are nowhere.

They pick up Manning, and now it is likely they will be the #2 seed in this year's playoffs. They will surprise no one if they are in the Super Bowl this year.

The Bills MUST do something at QB, except reaching for third stringers and putting them as a starter. Anyone with half a brain KNEW, without a shadow of a doubt, that Fitz was a reach. Paying him big bucks last year was one of the stupidest moves I have ever seen this team (and most other NFL team) ever make.

Putting the weight of the team on Edwards, and then canning him a few games into the season told me all I want to know about the Bills and QB management.

They don't have the first clue what to do.

Fueling their incompetence are the fans. Yes, Bills fans are just as much to blame as Bills management. I have seen it year after year, on boards just like this. Defenders of the terrible QB decisions. Yes, we had poster after poster after poster say stupid things like "In Fitz We Trust", and giving him the benefit of the doubt, when just one critical thought going through your head knows that the prospect of him bringing this team to respectability are virtually nil.

Then they fill these pages with nonsense of questioning every single QB prospect in each draft, and warning of "reaching" and "not getting the right guy".

100% bullcrap.

Stand on the sidelines, waiting for that perfect situation is the most ignorant thing you can do in today's NFL.

It gets you where the Bills are today. No playoffs in 13 years. Not even a SNIFF of the playoffs in over about 10 years. No prospect of getting CLOSE to the playoffs next year, or probably the year after that. Keep on shunning drafting QB's in the first round, and you can count on another decade of irrelevance.

The fans must revolt!!! DO NOT BUY TICKETS. DO NOT BUY JERSEYS.

That is the only thing this team will listen to. We should be shouting from the rafters. Calling in to radio stations. Writing to the newspapers.

I've seen this work before. The debacle of the 70's led to the building of the only real team this town has ever seen. They almost screwed it up by not even spending their first draft choice on Jim kelly, and then refusing to pay him what he was worth and letting him play in the USFL for a couple of years.

Empty seats and an overwhelming outcry got Ralph's attention. This team WILL spend money....just not usually in the right places. Until we get a new owner, the pressure has to be put on by the fans to let management know, without any doubt, that we will not put up with the crap they have been trying to dish out for years.

Draft a QB in the first round. if he's not the right guy...draft another one. Trade for veterans. I'd take ANY of the QB's that may hit the market over Fitz. Smith, Vick, Rivers....ANY of these guys would be a major upgrade from the crap we have now. Draft a bright prospect in the first round. Move UP in the draft to get him. Play the veteran while getting the young one ready to take over.

Act like a REAL NFL team that WANTS to win, instead of a cautious wimp afraid to make a mistake.

Look where acting like that has gotten this team in the past 12 years.

Freakin NOWHERE!!!!!!

[DraftBoy]

I completely disagree. You may have $500k in the bank- that doesn't make it smart to pay someone $40,000 for a Chevy Aveo.

Seriously? That's your analogy?

[gebobs]

Seriously? That's your analogy?
I agree. Bad analogy. The Bills paid $59 million for a lousy Yugo.

[OpIv37]

Seriously? That's your analogy?

Pick any analogy you want- overpaying is stupid no matter how much money you have.

[DraftBoy]

Pick any analogy you want- overpaying is stupid no matter how much money you have.

Not really. Would you agree Fitz is an ideal backup QB for most NFL teams?

[OpIv37]

Not really. Would you agree Fitz is an ideal backup QB for most NFL teams?

backup, yeah, but no one is going to pay $10 mil for a backup. If we kept Fitz as a backup and signed someone else to be the starter, then we'd have a real cluster****. Not only would we have far too much money tied up in a QB position that's still mediocre, we'd have the problem of a guy likely making less than Fitz starting over him, which is a good way to get a disgruntled player and a meddling owner to cause problems.

[DraftBoy]

backup, yeah, but no one is going to pay $10 mil for a backup. If we kept Fitz as a backup and signed someone else to be the starter, then we'd have a real cluster****. Not only would we have far too much money tied up in a QB position that's still mediocre, we'd have the problem of a guy likely making less than Fitz starting over him, which is a good way to get a disgruntled player and a meddling owner to cause problems.

And how do you think having 14.5 million in two QB's compares to the rest of the league? Here's a hint, its only slightly (2 Million on average) over what most teams are paying two QB's. So you're point is still not reasonable.

[gebobs]

And how do you think having 14.5 million in two QB's compares to the rest of the league? Here's a hint, its only slightly (2 Million on average) over what most teams are paying two QB's. So you're point is still not reasonable.
What other teams do with their money is not relevant to me as a fan of the Buffalo Bills. Fitzpatrick is dog crap. He doesn't have $10M in value.

[trapezeus]

This is a plausible option one I wouldnt mind the Bills exploring as long as they dont give up 2 1st round picks or the farm for Rivers

agreed. also what makes me ok with rivers (even though i hate that throwing motion) is that his decline hasn't come from injuries. they've come from a declining talent level across the team. He might still be right where you have to be if given the same talent again.

[trapezeus]

Are you really continuing with this logic? Do you even know the other Bills FA without looking them up (and yes I do). Its Urbik, Levitre, Spencer Johnson, Donald Jones, David Nelson, Leodis McKelvin, Shawne Merriman, Kyle Moore, Bryan Scott, and Tavaris Jackson and a bunch of end of the roster scrubs. Why do you not even attempt to look these things up before you speculate blindly and incorrectly? Nelson, Urbik, and Jones are all RFA's and will be tendered. None of those guys outside of Levitre is a high priced or can't lose FA.

You cut Fitz its only $10 not $10.5. Ok so $14.0 used on QB with 46 million and change left...not worried at all.

You mean there are other scrubs other than the ones you listed?:)

[DraftBoy]

What other teams do with their money is not relevant to me as a fan of the Buffalo Bills. Fitzpatrick is dog crap. He doesn't have $10M in value.

True, but that wasn't Op's point.

- - - Updated - - -


You mean there are other scrubs other than the ones you listed?:)

touche

[gebobs]

Ok, and? He's better than Fitz in a handful of areas (stronger arm, faster legs) and worse in others (older, injury prone, takes more sacks). I think it would end up a wash, at best.
That's just it. Fitz blows. Vick blows. They both blow.

[OpIv37]

And how do you think having 14.5 million in two QB's compares to the rest of the league? Here's a hint, its only slightly (2 Million on average) over what most teams are paying two QB's. So you're point is still not reasonable.

That's fine if you ignore quality. At least half the teams in the league have a better QB situation than we do.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

That's just it. Fitz blows. Vick blows. They both blow.

Right, you'll get no argument on this point.

SO WHY ARE WE YELLING AT EACH OTHER? ;)

[DraftBoy]

That's fine if you ignore quality. At least half the teams in the league have a better QB situation than we do.

You just said Fitz was a fine backup and Vick was an improvement as a starter. How many times are you going to change your argument before we have sufficiently proved you're previous points were in no way reasonable?

[OpIv37]

You just said Fitz was a fine backup and Vick was an improvement as a starter. How many times are you going to change your argument before we have sufficiently proved you're previous points were in no way reasonable?

I haven't changed my argument once: "better than our current situation" does not necessarily equal quality. That's the whole problem- another lateral move toward mediocrity.

[DraftBoy]

I haven't changed my argument once: "better than our current situation" does not necessarily equal quality. That's the whole problem- another lateral move toward mediocrity.

Can't be lateral if you admit we are getting better.

[OpIv37]

Can't be lateral if you admit we are getting better.

holy **** you are argumentative. Yes, technically it's not "lateral" if we are getting incrementally better. But the end result will still be the same: most likely no playoffs and definitely no SB.

[DraftBoy]

holy **** you are argumentative. Yes, technically it's not "lateral" if we are getting incrementally better. But the end result will still be the same: most likely no playoffs and definitely no SB.

Im not the one who was making up things earlier in the thread that were not even close to being true. So yes maybe you need to be a little more technical in what you're saying because right now you're not even in the ballpark.