Warts, Love And Dreams In Buffalo

[BLeonard]

Found this in the SI archives. From January, 1969: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082018/1/index.htm

Figured some would enjoy the read. One part inparticular really stood out to me. From page 5:



A man who maintains a large stable of racehorses and has owned a share of the Detroit Lions (with his father) plus a piece of the collapsed Detroit soccer franchise, Wilson is not given to dilettantish dabbling in sports. His AFL team is a profitable enterprise, and he means to keep it that way, even if it means moving to the Yukon. "Buffalo is an excellent sports town, like all major Great Lakes cities, and I don't regret for a minute having located the Bills there, but now they've got to move ahead, develop for the future."

While acknowledging Buffalo's image problem, Wilson firmly denies that it is that bad. "Buffalonians will support a loser as well as any city, and our attendance the past two years has proved it. Despite a losing 1967 season we sold 22,000 season tickets this year, and I'd expect sales to go as high as 45,000 with a new stadium. The city's weather is no worse than a number of other big-league towns, although it does get a lot of snow after the 15th of November—when it doesn't really matter."

Sitting there in Detroit, Wilson symbolized another Buffalo dilemma. "There are very few home-owned industries in Buffalo, and that causes a number of problems. It reduces the number of key local people who can rally big area businesses to the support of sports enterprises and it reduces the number of men who might be traveling around the country selling Buffalo on a national scale."

Despite his awareness of Buffalo's shortcomings, Wilson makes it perfectly clear that he intends to keep the Bills in town if he possibly can. But that means the implementation of a new stadium, and the dirt must begin to fly soon if Wilson and his team are to be kept around. "The present talk centers around a domed stadium, but I've questioned whether a facility of that type might not be too expensive for Buffalo. We've recommended a 'Spartan-type' stadium of about 70,000 seats that would cost around $20 million. However, if they want to build a domed stadium, it's fine by me, although I feel parking and access is critical. I'll tell you one thing, if Buffalo decides to build a domed stadium it'll put that city on the map for the next hundred years."


First, I never knew the original plan was for a domed stadium... Interesting, given that many fans are now against a dome because they feel it provides a "home field advantage."

However, this quote, which I have bolded and will requote, really rubs me the wrong way:



"Buffalonians will support a loser as well as any city, and our attendance the past two years has proved it. Despite a losing 1967 season we sold 22,000 season tickets this year, and I'd expect sales to go as high as 45,000 with a new stadium. The city's weather is no worse than a number of other big-league towns, although it does get a lot of snow after the 15th of November—when it doesn't really matter."


For the first bolded part here, I'm not a "Buffalonian," but this pisses me off... Unless I'm reading it wrong, he's basically saying "We don't have to worry about being any good or having a good product, we'll make money regardless, because people will still buy tickets." Again, this was his thinking in 1969...

The second bolded part really made me scratch my head... "...although it does get a lot of snow after the 15th of November—when it doesn't really matter."

My initial thought was, "well, back then, the season ended earlier than it does now..." Well, that's true, but still, in 1969 and 1970, the Bills played 2 home games after November 15th. They played 5 games after Nov. 15 in 1969 (The AFL's last season) and 6 games on or after Nov. 15 in 1970, the first season after the merger.

So, the only thing I can translate Ralph's comment of "when it doesn't really matter" to is one of two things...

1: The Bills are out of playoff contention
2: The tickets are sold by then, so I don't really care if fans show up or not

Is it just me? Does anyone else read this differently...?

-Bill

[Electrici]

First of all, thanks for posting the link to this article.

It is well before my time, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. It gives a perspective of how things were before the stadium was built, before the Sabres were around and the trials and tribulations of Buffalo sports and getting teams to set up shop. Lots of rejection...

For Wilson's quote, you have to admit he is right. The Bills give the city an identity (whether its a 'losing' identity or not) and Buffalo fans will support a loser. The reason for the support from the fan base is for the chance, the opportunity to not be a loser for once. The chance to be the best at something. It's really quite charming, and pathetic at the same time. As much as I hate supporting a losing cause year after year, I would never give up on my team, because there is that chance that things turn around and the underdog finally claims the major world championship that has eluded a beaten up city for so long. The Bills sell hope each and every year, and hope is something the city desperately needs and people are willing to buy into. It is unfortunate nothing ever comes to fruition from this hope, but one of these years, it may. It really sucks to say that.

Regardless, thanks again for sharing.
Michael

[Night Train]

First, I never knew the original plan was for a domed stadium... Interesting, given that many fans are now against a dome because they feel it provides a "home field advantage."


They had plans to build a dome stadium out in Lancaster, which was all fields and undeveloped at the time. What pissed off Wilson was that it wouldn't be a football only facility but a multi-sports stadium in order to get a MLB team. Buffalo was supposed to get a team but after the stadium deal fell through (Wilson), the baseball team was given to Montreal.
Then Wilson threatened to move the team to Seattle for well over a year until the Orchard Park stadium deal came about.

There are reasons some of us old timers just laugh at Ralph. Knowledge that goes back many years of business first, Buffalo second.

[Skooby]

They had plans to build a dome stadium out in Lancaster, which was all fields and undeveloped at the time. What pissed off Wilson was that it wouldn't be a football only facility but a multi-sports stadium in order to get a MLB team. Buffalo was supposed to get a team but after the stadium deal fell through (Wilson), the baseball team was given to Montreal.
Then Wilson threatened to move the team to Seattle for well over a year until the Orchard Park stadium deal came about.

There are reasons some of us old timers just laugh at Ralph. Knowledge that goes back many years of business first, Buffalo second.

Auction of the team to the highest bidder is a business first decision, Buffalo is 2nd.

[BLeonard]

They had plans to build a dome stadium out in Lancaster, which was all fields and undeveloped at the time. What pissed off Wilson was that it wouldn't be a football only facility but a multi-sports stadium in order to get a MLB team. Buffalo was supposed to get a team but after the stadium deal fell through (Wilson), the baseball team was given to Montreal.
Then Wilson threatened to move the team to Seattle for well over a year until the Orchard Park stadium deal came about.

There are reasons some of us old timers just laugh at Ralph. Knowledge that goes back many years of business first, Buffalo second.

That's what's confusing, though... Right there in the article, Ralph said: "However, if they want to build a domed stadium, it's fine by me, although I feel parking and access is critical. I'll tell you one thing, if Buffalo decides to build a domed stadium it'll put that city on the map for the next hundred years."

I wasn't alive back then, but are you saying that, after this article, they were still going to go with a dome, but then Ralph *****ed about it, even after saying that "It's fine by me" and "It'll put that city on the map for the next hundred years"...?

Why not tell Ralph to piss off, build the dome and get an MLB team? Baseball was much more popular back then than football was and the facility would have gotten much more use than what an open air football stadium would (and did). Or, was it a simple matter of "keep what we have" (The Bills) as opposed to trying to get something that they didn't yet have (a baseball team)?

Given the present situation, it also makes me wonder if this is part (if not all) of the reason that the Bills want to renovate RWS, as opposed to having a new stadium built. If they know that a new stadium would almost have to be a multi-purpose facility, then the Bills (well, really, Ralph) wouldn't be in line to reap all of the benefits and rewards of the new stadium... He'd most likley have to share.

-Bill

[trapezeus]

That's what's confusing, though... Right there in the article, Ralph said: "However, if they want to build a domed stadium, it's fine by me, although I feel parking and access is critical. I'll tell you one thing, if Buffalo decides to build a domed stadium it'll put that city on the map for the next hundred years."

I wasn't alive back then, but are you saying that, after this article, they were still going to go with a dome, but then Ralph *****ed about it, even after saying that "It's fine by me" and "It'll put that city on the map for the next hundred years"...?

Why not tell Ralph to piss off, build the dome and get an MLB team? Baseball was much more popular back then than football was and the facility would have gotten much more use than what an open air football stadium would (and did). Or, was it a simple matter of "keep what we have" (The Bills) as opposed to trying to get something that they didn't yet have (a baseball team)?

Given the present situation, it also makes me wonder if this is part (if not all) of the reason that the Bills want to renovate RWS, as opposed to having a new stadium built. If they know that a new stadium would almost have to be a multi-purpose facility, then the Bills (well, really, Ralph) wouldn't be in line to reap all of the benefits and rewards of the new stadium... He'd most likley have to share.

-Bill

NFL owners are holding towns hostage. no reason NYS doesn't cave again and say, "we'll give you proceeds to parking to games that aren't even yours. So if a concert rolls through, or a convention, etc, you'll still profit. And it isn't even NFL money, so you won't re-distribute it through sharing."

Honestly, at this point, i'd rather have NYS buy the team at a mark up of $1.3BN, take in the revenue themselves from parking and boxes, and then spend next 3-5 years working on new stadium beneficial to BUFFALO. Put a multi-purpose stadium in downtown on the lake, split costs with private business of new stadium, and then profit from there and provide the people a buffalo a service.

As it stands now, we bend over backwards to accomodate a multimillionare 800x over and then let him collect the revenue on what should be his expense. Pay the premium, and earn it back in the long haul. That is your solution. Because then you cut the littman's and brandons who know next to nothing about running a team.

I realize it becomes a government entity, but one that is held accountable by public opinion. I also realize the NFL prohibits this. But all you have to do is wave your finger at the anti-trust legislation they have. "Yep, we are revoking it because we offered that in the 60's for TV rights. and you abuse the hell out of it with season ticket. WE want that to be free or dramatically discounted. And we want cities to be able to buy teams to keep them there if an owner isn't willing to do it themselves."

[Don't Panic]

A stadium in Lancaster... still trying to picture what that would have been like...

GREAT share... thanks for doing the digging, BL.

[BLeonard]

A stadium in Lancaster... still trying to picture what that would have been like...

GREAT share... thanks for doing the digging, BL.

Well, to be fair, I didn't really dig... Someone on another Bills board posted it, noting how some things haven't changed (Wilson).

I just figured others would like the read, but I can only be credited with relaying, not digging...

-Bill

[cookie G]

That's what's confusing, though... Right there in the article, Ralph said: "However, if they want to build a domed stadium, it's fine by me, although I feel parking and access is critical. I'll tell you one thing, if Buffalo decides to build a domed stadium it'll put that city on the map for the next hundred years."

I wasn't alive back then, but are you saying that, after this article, they were still going to go with a dome, but then Ralph *****ed about it, even after saying that "It's fine by me" and "It'll put that city on the map for the next hundred years"...?

Why not tell Ralph to piss off, build the dome and get an MLB team? Baseball was much more popular back then than football was and the facility would have gotten much more use than what an open air football stadium would (and did). Or, was it a simple matter of "keep what we have" (The Bills) as opposed to trying to get something that they didn't yet have (a baseball team)?

Given the present situation, it also makes me wonder if this is part (if not all) of the reason that the Bills want to renovate RWS, as opposed to having a new stadium built. If they know that a new stadium would almost have to be a multi-purpose facility, then the Bills (well, really, Ralph) wouldn't be in line to reap all of the benefits and rewards of the new stadium... He'd most likley have to share.

-Bill

Though he eventually got what he wanted, a Spartan, single purpose stadium, I question how much influence he had over the decision.

The fight was mainly between the politcians, bankers, developers, etc.

This might shed some light on it:

The story of the football stadium is appalling. In 1964 a report determined that the best place for a new football stadium would be in or near the urban core. Three years later, Buffalo’s Chamber of Commerce issued a report suggesting that a two-stadium complex be built in Amherst instead. In this fight, nearly everyone took a side, Dillaway writes, and for a variety of reasons. But the basic reason for opposition to a downtown stadium was that a handful of people in the city’s business elite stood to make more money on the construction of a stadium in the suburbs.

Of this debate, Dillaway writes:

…when one bank executive looked like he might agree that a stadium should be built downtown, “he went into his board meeting, and came out a changed man,” and was not heard to assert himself on the stadium issue again. Implicit among the business leadership was the understanding that “if you [want to] build it downtown, you will be destroyed,” according to one longtime political insider. “The battle raged from the summer of ’68 over a plan to build a domed stadium in Lancaster, New York. The proposal fell apart in 1970…[It was] a massive, searing debate involving every major power figure in Buffalo ranging from the owner of the dominant newspaper, bankers, local governments, politicians, editors, law firms…Two people died of heart attacks, politicians quit, two went to prison. The proposal fell apart in 1970.”

In the end, the city’s leaders, realizing that they could not settle the issue for themselves, threw the decision to the New York State Urban Development Corporation. The UDC, more concerned with economic factors than with revitalizing the city, choose the current site of Rich Stadium in Orchard Park. Ten years later the State Supreme Court ruled that Erie County had breached its contract with the developer of the proposed Lancaster stadium.

http://artvoice.com/issues/v5n17/power_failure

I think Ralph's threat to move the team wasn't "either build a single purpose stadium, or we leave..." it was "build something or we leave". The Rockpile was becoming a rat infested, code violated hell hole.

The City and county screwed around for 2 years fighting about what to build and where.

The land in Lancaster was actually purchased, and from what I had been told, it was surveyed and the staked had been put down. Then they pulled the plug. I think the dome would have costed around 70 or 80 million, and the Ralph was built for a lot less than that. $20 million or so.

The developer ended up suing the county in a decades long lawsuit

He won $60 million initially, but lost on appeal. I think he ended up getting around $10 million in the 90's.

I've never really read the cases, I'm sure they would provide more info.

[BLeonard]

Though he eventually got what he wanted, a Spartan, single purpose stadium, I question how much influence he had over the decision.

The fight was mainly between the politcians, bankers, developers, etc.

This might shed some light on it:

The story of the football stadium is appalling. In 1964 a report determined that the best place for a new football stadium would be in or near the urban core. Three years later, Buffalo’s Chamber of Commerce issued a report suggesting that a two-stadium complex be built in Amherst instead. In this fight, nearly everyone took a side, Dillaway writes, and for a variety of reasons. But the basic reason for opposition to a downtown stadium was that a handful of people in the city’s business elite stood to make more money on the construction of a stadium in the suburbs.

Of this debate, Dillaway writes:

…when one bank executive looked like he might agree that a stadium should be built downtown, “he went into his board meeting, and came out a changed man,” and was not heard to assert himself on the stadium issue again. Implicit among the business leadership was the understanding that “if you [want to] build it downtown, you will be destroyed,” according to one longtime political insider. “The battle raged from the summer of ’68 over a plan to build a domed stadium in Lancaster, New York. The proposal fell apart in 1970…[It was] a massive, searing debate involving every major power figure in Buffalo ranging from the owner of the dominant newspaper, bankers, local governments, politicians, editors, law firms…Two people died of heart attacks, politicians quit, two went to prison. The proposal fell apart in 1970.”

In the end, the city’s leaders, realizing that they could not settle the issue for themselves, threw the decision to the New York State Urban Development Corporation. The UDC, more concerned with economic factors than with revitalizing the city, choose the current site of Rich Stadium in Orchard Park. Ten years later the State Supreme Court ruled that Erie County had breached its contract with the developer of the proposed Lancaster stadium.

http://artvoice.com/issues/v5n17/power_failure

I think Ralph's threat to move the team wasn't "either build a single purpose stadium, or we leave..." it was "build something or we leave". The Rockpile was becoming a rat infested, code violated hell hole.

The City and county screwed around for 2 years fighting about what to build and where.

The land in Lancaster was actually purchased, and from what I had been told, it was surveyed and the staked had been put down. Then they pulled the plug. I think the dome would have costed around 70 or 80 million, and the Ralph was built for a lot less than that. $20 million or so.

The developer ended up suing the county in a decades long lawsuit

He won $60 million initially, but lost on appeal. I think he ended up getting around $10 million in the 90's.

I've never really read the cases, I'm sure they would provide more info.

Interesting...

To be fair, though, the reason I made my comment was because Night Train had said "What pissed off Wilson was that it wouldn't be a football only facility."

If Ralph had nothing to do with it, then most of my comment should be retracted. My main confusion was "Why was Ralph pissed, when he had just said it "would be fine" and "put the city on the map for 100 years." Again, I was replying to Night Train's statement of "What pissed off Wilson was that it wouldn't be a football only facility."

Hope that makes more sense.

-Bill

[trapezeus]

cookie g's link to artvoice was pretty awesome. i think that book power failure sounds super interesting.