Keep Gailey

[Mahdi]

Obviously this was a horrible season and came with more disappointment than season's past as the expectation to improve significantly was high.

Yes Gailey deserves heat for certain things like not using Spiller enough and the biggest mistake which was banking on Fitz to be the guy.

However Gailey did a lot right. He got production out of a back-up QB, he did get Jackson and Spiller playing at a high level, he turned a scrap heap TE into a legitimate threat (Chandler), he took a RG off waivers and turned him into one of the top G in the AFC (Urbik), he turned Johnson into one of the most dynamic WRs in the NFL.

He also turned one of the worst OL in the NFL into one of the best. We can't forget about how good Nelson was before his injury. Another undrafted WR that Gailey got production from. Then you have Jones who was also undrafted and also was becoming an impact player.

We can all admit that Gailey took relatively weak and raw talent and got them to produce. Imagine if he had a real QB, if Gailey had Dalton or RGIII or Luck what would our offense look like then? Add to that a true #2 opposite Stevie, then what would the results be?

My point is that maybe if we just back off and let Gailey fix his errors (which I'm sure he is aware of) and address our weaknesses we might just see the Bills in the playoffs in the near future. But getting rid of Gailey now and having someone new come in who is not in touch with what we already have going for us I highly doubt will fix our situation.

Let Gailey continue to mold this thing because I don't think this team is that far away from being a playoff team. We are literally 4 players away from being a solid football team.

QB, #2WR, Impact LB and veteran CB. Let's just ride this out, I'm actually curious to see what Gailey's plans are with respect to upgrading this team in some very key areas.

[The King]

They quit on him. You can't keep a coach the players wont fight for.

[BidsJr]

Fail

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I was 100% ready to fire him after the Arizona game. He made so many stupid decisions in such a short span, I realized that he'd never "get it" as a head coach and needs to go.

[SpikedLemonade]

As much as we are already irrelevant in the NFL, keeping Gailey will just make us the laughing stock as well.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Gailey wouldn't know his errors if they punched him in the face. He's still sticking with Fitz in this weekend's meaningless game, refuse to take a look at TJackson. You think he knows what he's doing wrong?

[Albany,n.y.]

Gailey has to win Sunday just to be able to say he's lost 2 out of every 3 games he's coached for the Bills. He's trying to attain a .333 win percentage with a win-WOW!

The OP sounds like he'd be the last customer to patronize a restaurant with a bad chef and tell the owner not to fire the chef because the waiters are really trying when they serve the bad food and that if we just give the chef more time the food will start to taste better and all the customers he lost will come back. My advice-time for a new chef.

[OpIv37]

What about the Jauron-like clock management? What about sitting back and watching while Wannstadt's D puts up records for futility? What about punting from inside his own 35 in a dome but trying a FG from the same spot in the December Buffalo wind? What about keeping Moorman, only to cut him and sign Powell, who's been worse than Moorman? What about keeping two kickers only to turn around and cut Potter, and for that matter, not even allowing Potter to attempt FG's in the preseason? What about the complete and utter inability to make halftime or in-game adjustments?

And I particularly disagree with this part:


We can all admit that Gailey took relatively weak and raw talent and got them to produce.

Other than a 6 game stretch to start last season, when has this team produced under Gailey? Under Gailey, the team's record are 4-12, 6-10 and no better than 6-10 this year, with only 3 (possibly 4) division wins. The D has been horrendous for his whole tenure and the O no better than average. The ONLY part of this team that has produced in any meaningful sense is the run game, and that's mostly been just this season. Gailey can do no better than tie last year's record and still may finish with a worse record than last year. That's a very strange definition of "producing."

And, as far as the talent level, well, yes, there are definitely some glaring talent holes in this roster, most notably at QB and LB. But, this team is clearly more talented than any team Jauron ever had, and at least Jauron managed consistent 7-9's. Gailey has yet to even hit that mediocre mark despite having more talent. So once again, that's a strange definition of "producing."

[Albany,n.y.]

Gailey wouldn't know his errors if they punched him in the face. He's still sticking with Fitz in this weekend's meaningless game, refuse to take a look at TJackson. You think he knows what he's doing wrong?

Chan is like the captain who goes down with his ship instead of just plugging the leak and stopping the ship from sinking.

[OpIv37]

I was 100% ready to fire him after the Arizona game. He made so many stupid decisions in such a short span, I realized that he'd never "get it" as a head coach and needs to go.

I gave him a little more leeway than that, mainly because, going into this season, I thought Nix was screwing him with bad decisions and he wasn't doing all that bad given the steaming pile of **** he was given to work with. However, this year the talent on the roster is vastly improved but the results on the field are the same or worse. It's become painfully obvious that Gailey has been part of the problem the whole time.

[gebobs]

3-14 in the division. See ya.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I gave him a little more leeway than that, mainly because, going into this season, I thought Nix was screwing him with bad decisions and he wasn't doing all that bad given the steaming pile of **** he was given to work with. However, this year the talent on the roster is vastly improved but the results on the field are the same or worse. It's become painfully obvious that Gailey has been part of the problem the whole time.

I was down on Gailey from the start when he decided to open the gd rebuild with a halfback in the Top 10 (an NFL strategy at least 10 years out of date) and then into year three he can't even get the guy 15 touches consistently.

But blaming the talent doesn't account for Gailey's utterly horrendous gameday management. Even as bad as this team is, we've had multiple games that were tight in the second half, and that's where coaching makes the difference. He doesn't have it.

[Mahdi]

There are lots of valid points here, no question about that. But I still feel that Gailey can improve and has an inside track on the team that will help him to fix what needs to be fixed.

You also have to take Nix into the equation. Nix has a good feel for what we all know needs to be fixed. I am fairly certain that he will ensure the issues are addressed.

Gailey, despite all his errors, can do better with better talent at key positions.

You guys forget that the Colts threw their OC in to the HC job and still did well. Luck is the reason for that. No one can tell me that Bruce Arians is such a special coach and the Colts have a super roster. Luck is the difference between us and them. And you can definitely argue that we have way more talent than they do on both sides of the ball.

Gailey made some errors this year, but with a talented QB he can have the Bills in the playoffs too.

[justasportsfan]

Mahdi loves losing.

[gebobs]

Gailey is a dinosaur. Even when he wasn't, he wasn't NFL calibre. He's every bit as bad as Jauron was.

[pmoon6]

While I understand the continuity thing, but Gailey lost the team. He is not a motivator and even though that isn't a requirement for HC in the NFL, that's precisely what this group needs. Whether you like it or not, you get 3 years to at least show improvement if not win. Gailey hasn't done that, but more importantly he looks like a whipped dog. Go to buffalbills.com and watch just the last three post game press conferences.

[pmoon6]

There are lots of valid points here, no question about that. But I still feel that Gailey can improve and has an inside track on the team that will help him to fix what needs to be fixed.

You also have to take Nix into the equation. Nix has a good feel for what we all know needs to be fixed. I am fairly certain that he will ensure the issues are addressed.

Gailey, despite all his errors, can do better with better talent at key positions.

You guys forget that the Colts threw their OC in to the HC job and still did well. Luck is the reason for that. No one can tell me that Bruce Arians is such a special coach and the Colts have a super roster. Luck is the difference between us and them. And you can definitely argue that we have way more talent than they do on both sides of the ball.

Gailey made some errors this year, but with a talented QB he can have the Bills in the playoffs too.The Colts are a bad example. No. 1, you have a QB that was NFL ready and a great talent out of the gate.

No.2, you have the Chuck Pagano angle where the players play with enthusiasm for their fallen coach.

[justasportsfan]

There are lots of valid points here, no question about that. But I still feel that Gailey can improve and has an inside track on the team that will help him to fix what needs to be fixed.

Even if he can do better with talent, he cannot get us to the sb if he couldn't even make us competitive with what he's got.

The goal is the superbowl and Gailey is NOT a sb caliber HC.

[EDS]

There are lots of valid points here, no question about that. But I still feel that Gailey can improve and has an inside track on the team that will help him to fix what needs to be fixed.

You also have to take Nix into the equation. Nix has a good feel for what we all know needs to be fixed. I am fairly certain that he will ensure the issues are addressed.

Gailey, despite all his errors, can do better with better talent at key positions.

You guys forget that the Colts threw their OC in to the HC job and still did well. Luck is the reason for that. No one can tell me that Bruce Arians is such a special coach and the Colts have a super roster. Luck is the difference between us and them. And you can definitely argue that we have way more talent than they do on both sides of the ball.

Gailey made some errors this year, but with a talented QB he can have the Bills in the playoffs too.

Most 5 years olds have a good feel for what needs to be fixed, particularly since two of the big ones (QB and LB) have been issues for 4+ years now.

[better days]

I was a big Gailey supporter in the past. I would bet I have more posts defending him than anyone on this board. Well, I am done with that. I am so over it & I think most of the players are as well.

It is time for Gailey to go.

[jamze132]

I see what Mahdi is saying and to an extent it does make sense. Continuity is crucial in the NFL. With that said, Gailey should be fired within a week. He made too many stupid ass decisions that trumps any kind if continuity we need to keep. We need a new QB, DC, and a bunch if LBs if we're ever going to win. Might as well get a new coach while we're at it.

[pmoon6]

I see what Mahdi is saying and to an extent it does make sense. Continuity is crucial in the NFL. With that said, Gailey should be fired within a week. He made too many stupid ass decisions that trumps any kind if continuity we need to keep. We need a new QB, DC, and a bunch if LBs if we're ever going to win. Might as well get a new coach while we're at it.The new QB we get also needs more weapons at wideout.

[better days]

The new QB we get also needs more weapons at wideout.

Bowe would look much better in blue than he did in red.

[pmoon6]

Bowe would look much better in blue than he did in red.I'd take him, but do you think a team like KC, who also lack offensive weapons, will let him walk?

[Albany,n.y.]

There are lots of valid points here, no question about that. But I still feel that Gailey can improve and has an inside track on the team that will help him to fix what needs to be fixed.

You also have to take Nix into the equation. Nix has a good feel for what we all know needs to be fixed. I am fairly certain that he will ensure the issues are addressed.

Gailey, despite all his errors, can do better with better talent at key positions.

You guys forget that the Colts threw their OC in to the HC job and still did well. Luck is the reason for that. No one can tell me that Bruce Arians is such a special coach and the Colts have a super roster. Luck is the difference between us and them. And you can definitely argue that we have way more talent than they do on both sides of the ball.

Gailey made some errors this year, but with a talented QB he can have the Bills in the playoffs too.

You can't be serious. I thought this thread was made just to see how many replies you'd get & to let us all vent our anger over how bad a coach Gailey is, but I'm starting to believe you really want Gailey back. So which AFC East coach are you, Bellichick, Philbin or Ryan? They're about the only people that have seen Chan coach and want him back on the Bills sideline in 2013.

[better days]

I'd take him, but do you think a team like KC, who also lack offensive weapons, will let him walk?

Well, he is older & the Chiefs are cleaning house this offseason, so I think it is very possible they let him go. If he refuses to sign a new contract, I doubt they tag him.

[pmoon6]

Well, he is older & the Chiefs are cleaning house this offseason, so I think it is very possible they let him go. If he refuses to sign a new contract, I doubt they tag him.Good point.

[OpIv37]

There are lots of valid points here, no question about that. But I still feel that Gailey can improve and has an inside track on the team that will help him to fix what needs to be fixed.

You also have to take Nix into the equation. Nix has a good feel for what we all know needs to be fixed. I am fairly certain that he will ensure the issues are addressed.

Gailey, despite all his errors, can do better with better talent at key positions.

You guys forget that the Colts threw their OC in to the HC job and still did well. Luck is the reason for that. No one can tell me that Bruce Arians is such a special coach and the Colts have a super roster. Luck is the difference between us and them. And you can definitely argue that we have way more talent than they do on both sides of the ball.

Gailey made some errors this year, but with a talented QB he can have the Bills in the playoffs too.

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with this, but for the sake of argument, I will accept your premise. Here's the problem, though: where are we going to find that talent? Specifically, who's our Andrew Luck and how do we be sure that we get him?

[OLDSRIP]

I really hate the idea of a coaching change again. We have seen this to many times.
But Chans record is terrible. And it doesn't look like it will get any better.
if I saw anything that pointed in the right direction, I would agree with the op.
instead we get blown out more times than we win. And all he can say is that he doesn't have the answers.
he keeps doing the same things over and over and is expecting different results. I think we all know the old saying.

Unfortunately IMO, he has to go. I would love to see them be able to stay the course. But what's their record in the division? Besides, to me he looks beat up. I'm not sure he has the drive anymore.. It seems to me it has been beaten out of him.
i just hope they can actually find a competent replacement so we are not doing this again in 3 years.
thats another thing that happens over and over and never seems to change for the better.
Its kinda like having Charlie Brown as the team mascot.

[Mahdi]

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with this, but for the sake of argument, I will accept your premise. Here's the problem, though: where are we going to find that talent? Specifically, who's our Andrew Luck and how do we be sure that we get him?

That is the thing the Bills FO needs to find out. Who is going to QB this team.

We have had a bunch of coaches here and none have panned out BUT we also had no QB in that same time span.

I really don't see a point in bringing in the next Joe Blow who will blow everything up and restart. We all know we're not getting Gruden or Cowher so do you really want to start from scratch with another unknown coach?

I'd rather let Gailey work it out, get more talent in here and improve further on our positives.

[jamze132]

That is the thing the Bills FO needs to find out. Who is going to QB this team.

We have had a bunch of coaches here and none have panned out BUT we also had no QB in that same time span.

I really don't see a point in bringing in the next Joe Blow who will blow everything up and restart. We all know we're not getting Gruden or Cowher so do you really want to start from scratch with another unknown coach?

I'd rather let Gailey work it out, get more talent in here and improve further on our positives.

Dude I know you're a smart guy but come on. We won 5 games this year. Gailey didn't even win 1/3 of the games he coached in Buffalo. What is there to continue to work on. We actually regressed as a team this year. He and his friend Fitz need to go.

[justasportsfan]

I'd rather let Gailey work it out, get more talent in here and improve further on our positives.

If he cant make the team competitive AS IS, Gailey will need an ALL PRO team to get us deep into the playoffs. Even then , that wouldn't guarantee he can win a superbowl. The guy hardly even knows what a play action is.

[Mahdi]

If he cant make the team competitive AS IS, Gailey will need an ALL PRO team to get us deep into the playoffs. Even then , that wouldn't guarantee he can win a superbowl. The guy hardly even knows what a play action is.

I don't agree.

If Gailey had Andy Dalton and a legit #2 on offense plus an impact LB and a veteran CB opposite Gilmore this is a playoff team. I'll take a playoff team for now and then worry about making the SB later.

[DraftBoy]

Absolutely not. Gailey has done nothing to change this team for the positive and refuses to even use our best player. Fire him and move on.

[jamze132]

I don't agree.

If Gailey had Andy Dalton and a legit #2 on offense plus an impact LB and a veteran CB opposite Gilmore this is a playoff team. I'll take a playoff team for now and then worry about making the SB later.
No way Just adding Dalton gets us 4-5 more wins necessary. Gailey was out coached by just about everyone this year. Did you see the one where they did a QB sneak on 1st down? Gailey often out coaches himself, and I'm not trying to be a funny guy. Today's NFL is too much for Gailey as a HC.

[Mahdi]

Dude I know you're a smart guy but come on. We won 5 games this year. Gailey didn't even win 1/3 of the games he coached in Buffalo. What is there to continue to work on. We actually regressed as a team this year. He and his friend Fitz need to go.

Its a QB league and we don't have one, we don't have one on defense either. Gailey and Wanny step into every game with a huge disadvantage before the game even starts because the key guys on either side of the ball are just lesser than their counterparts.

Fitz fooled us all. Gailey included. While Gailey has a big share in that blame I think if he was more fortunate and had one of the young QBs in the league we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Mahdi]

No way Just adding Dalton gets us 4-5 more wins necessary. Gailey was out coached by just about everyone this year. Did you see the one where they did a QB sneak on 1st down? Gailey often out coaches himself, and I'm not trying to be a funny guy. Today's NFL is too much for Gailey as a HC.

The QB sneak on first down was Fitz not Gailey. Fitz did it to avoid a delay of game.

[EDS]

I don't agree.

If Gailey had Andy Dalton and a legit #2 on offense plus an impact LB and a veteran CB opposite Gilmore this is a playoff team. I'll take a playoff team for now and then worry about making the SB later.

Interesting, because Marvin Lewis has Andy Dalton and no number 2 wide receiver and can make the playoffs.

[DraftBoy]

Its a QB league and we don't have one, we don't have one on defense either. Gailey and Wanny step into every game with a huge disadvantage before the game even starts because the key guys on either side of the ball are just lesser than their counterparts.

Fitz fooled us all. Gailey included. While Gailey has a big share in that blame I think if he was more fortunate and had one of the young QBs in the league we wouldn't be having this discussion.

No he didn't. Many people said the extension was not a smart decision. Maybe you were fooled, and Gailey certainly was, but don't attempt to say that Fitz had us all fooled because that's not even close to true.

- - - Updated - - -


Interesting, because Marvin Lewis has Andy Dalton and no number 2 wide receiver and can make the playoffs.

Combination of Gresham, Hawkins, Sanu, and Binns though makes up for lack of true #2.

[Mahdi]

The QB sneak on first down was Fitz not Gailey. Fitz did it to avoid a delay of game.

As for Dalton, he turned the Bengals around so why not us? I suppose their HC is that good? He has been on the hot seat for 5 years. They stuck with him, they got a QB and now they are challenging in a very tough division.

[Ed]

I wouldn't mind keeping Gailey as OC since I agree that he's done a lot of good things on offense despite not having a lot of talent to work with, but that's not realistic. It would have been exciting to see what this offense could do under Gailey with a legit QB and another decent WR.

I can't justify keeping a guy that now has double digit losses in all three years he's been here though. Not only does this team lose a lot, but they lose in record breaking blowout fashion. It's embarrassing.

[justasportsfan]

I don't agree.

If Gailey had Andy Dalton and a legit #2 on offense plus an impact LB and a veteran CB opposite Gilmore this is a playoff team. I'll take a playoff team for now and then worry about making the SB later.

You just pointed out the other problem. Dalton would have been sitting on the bench "learning his system" since he thinks his system is too complicated for anyone to learn.He insists on Fitz which in turn turned us a few years back.

Andrew Luck wouldn't have his numbers since Gailey likes to ease in players. The game has evolved and Gailey needs to know that the qb's from college are different from the his old school mentality.

In Fitz's 3rd year under Gailey, his nos. are not a whole lot better to Tavaris' nos. playing with the seahawks in his 1st year.

[Mahdi]

Interesting, because Marvin Lewis has Andy Dalton and no number 2 wide receiver and can make the playoffs.

Right but they also have AJ Green who is maybe the best WR in the AFC. Plus Gresham who is coming on strong.

Also, if we still had Nelson and a healthy Jones we would be doing way better on offense. The loss of Nelson was massive. He was our 3rd down guy and defenses would have had to choose between Nelson and Chandler inside.

[justasportsfan]

I guarantee you, had we drafted Rusell Wilson, he'd be on the bench.

[kishoph]

Three seasons in a row with double digit losses, no other Bills coach in history has done that, 1 win against a team with a winning record in 3 years. I really don't need to say more and there is much more that can be said about the futility of this team under Gailey.

[OpIv37]

That is the thing the Bills FO needs to find out. Who is going to QB this team.

We have had a bunch of coaches here and none have panned out BUT we also had no QB in that same time span.

I really don't see a point in bringing in the next Joe Blow who will blow everything up and restart. We all know we're not getting Gruden or Cowher so do you really want to start from scratch with another unknown coach?

I'd rather let Gailey work it out, get more talent in here and improve further on our positives.

Do I really want to start from scratch with another unknown coach? No, I don't want to. But Gailey is never going to work it out. What you see is what you get. I agree with you that the next coach will probably be just as bad as Gailey, Jauron, Mularkey, etc, but I disagree that Gailey is capable of working it out. The unfortunate reality is that we are screwed until the ownership situation changes. The team will always be like this as long as Ralph and Russ are running the show. I don't know if it's because they're cheap or incompetent or difficult to work with or some combination of the 3, but for whatever reason, they can't attract top GM or coaching talent, and in the rare instances where they have attracted it, they couldn't keep it.

Now that the new lease all but guarantees the team will stay in Buffalo, I cannot wait for a new owner.

[EDS]

As for Dalton, he turned the Bengals around so why not us? I suppose their HC is that good? He has been on the hot seat for 5 years. They stuck with him, they got a QB and now they are challenging in a very tough division.

They are competitive now because they have a good GM who has brought in a truck load of top-tier talent in the past three seasons, including Dalton, A.J. Green, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Kevin Zeitler and Vontaze Burfict.

The Bills are not competitive because Nix has not brought in sufficient talent - particularly at the most crucial position on the field.

[pmoon6]

I guess it's nice to talk about, but Chan Gailey will be fired next Tuesday. The one question that remains is will Buddy Nix be axed as well? Fitzpatrick might have been retained as a mentor for a young QB, but not considering the financial advantages we have to cut him.

San Francisco faces a similar situation with Alex Smith. They won't keep him as a back-up at his salary and I don't think Smith would consider staying no matter what the money, so they have little choice but to cut him. He has earned being a starter. We will see how it plays out and it depends on salary cap room, his salary, his interest, the other interested teams, etc., but Smith is an intriguing possibility.

[EDS]

Right but they also have AJ Green who is maybe the best WR in the AFC. Plus Gresham who is coming on strong.

Also, if we still had Nelson and a healthy Jones we would be doing way better on offense. The loss of Nelson was massive. He was our 3rd down guy and defenses would have had to choose between Nelson and Chandler inside.

Bills could have had Green. Could have had Geno Atkins and Andy Dalton too. But Nix is a genius.

[justasportsfan]

I really don't see a point in bringing in the next Joe Blow who will blow everything up and restart. We all know we're not getting Gruden or Cowher so do you really want to start from scratch with another unknown coach?




Its a QB league and we don't have one, we don't have one on defense either.getting a new qb will be starting from scratch just as much as getting a new HC.

If Fitz CLEARLY improved this year from last year then I would have confidence in Gailey developing a qb. Fitz regressed. He's worse.

[EDS]

No he didn't. Many people said the extension was not a smart decision. Maybe you were fooled, and Gailey certainly was, but don't attempt to say that Fitz had us all fooled because that's not even close to true.

- - - Updated - - -



Combination of Gresham, Hawkins, Sanu, and Binns though makes up for lack of true #2.

Binns is not even on the team any more! Hawkins is a decent slot guy, certaintly not a true #2 and Sanu has been injured alot with a few good games sandwiched in, that is it. Gresham is good, but not at the Gronkoswki/Graham level good.

[Mahdi]

getting a new qb will be starting from scratch just as much as getting a new HC.

If Fitz CLEARLY improved this year from last year then I would have confidence in Gailey developing a qb. Fitz regressed. He's worse.

Fitz didn't regress or improve. He is what he is. A streaky, inconsistent QB who is inaccurate but gutsy, smart but risky.

A new QB is placed into an existing system with all the players knowing the terminology. A new coach, is new OC, new DC, new language etc.

Its not the same at all.

[psubills62]

Mahdi, you must be joking.

Gailey absolutely deserves to be fired. What evidence is there that he'll identify the issues and know how to fix them? The man looks lost every week except when they play the Chiefs.

Good coaching can be seen no matter what the talent level is. I have yet to see good coaching from Gailey and his staff.

[justasportsfan]

Fitz didn't regress or improve. He is what he is. A streaky, inconsistent QB who is inaccurate but gutsy, smart but risky.

A new QB is placed into an existing system with all the players knowing the terminology. A new coach, is new OC, new DC, new language etc.

Its not the same at all.

nope. He regressed. His nos. Show it. He may have less INT's but so did Trent once he dinked and dunked.

Fitz has gotten worse when the game is on the line. Just like Trent, he lost his mojo.

Under Gailey a new Qb whether rookie or vet would have to start like a rookie.On the becnh. Ask TJ.

UNder everyone else ....see Russell Wilson, Luck, Dalton...they start.

[Mahdi]

No he didn't. Many people said the extension was not a smart decision. Maybe you were fooled, and Gailey certainly was, but don't attempt to say that Fitz had us all fooled because that's not even close to true.

- - - Updated - - -



Combination of Gresham, Hawkins, Sanu, and Binns though makes up for lack of true #2.

And with regards to Fitz. EVERYONE was fooled. The only difference is that everyone was fooled to a certain degree, some more than others. Some felt Fitz was a franchise QB for us for the next few years, some felt he was a good fill in until we get a true top ten guy and some felt he was a decent starter that would get us to the playoffs.

There was definitely a point where all Bills fans were in consensus that Fitz was the right option for that time. It turns out Fitz was never the answer and we should have been actively looking for a replacement.

[psubills62]

Fitz didn't regress or improve. He is what he is. A streaky, inconsistent QB who is inaccurate but gutsy, smart but risky.

A new QB is placed into an existing system with all the players knowing the terminology. A new coach, is new OC, new DC, new language etc.

Its not the same at all.
Yeah, it's worse to keep Gailey and co. Because it's an existing system that doesn't work.

Changing terminology is really overstated by fans. These are NFL players. If they can't learn a freaking playbook by now, they should be bagging groceries.

[coastal]

For all the went wrong with the first half of this season, Gailey's Bills had every opportunity to make a playoff run. It all could have got rolling in Indi.

Not only did the team not capitalize on that opportunity, Gailey's game mgmt could clearly be identified as a cause of that failure. Shortly thereafter the team quit.

its time.

[justasportsfan]

And with regards to Fitz. EVERYONE was fooled. The only difference is that everyone was fooled to a certain degree, some more than others. Some felt Fitz was a franchise QB for us for the next few years, some felt he was a good fill in until we get a true top ten guy and some felt he was a decent starter that would get us to the playoffs.

There was definitely a point where all Bills fans were in consensus that Fitz was the right option for that time. It turns out Fitz was never the answer and we should have been actively looking for a replacement.

and this all falls on the coaches head especially is the coach is offensive minded.

[Mahdi]

Mahdi, you must be joking.

Gailey absolutely deserves to be fired. What evidence is there that he'll identify the issues and know how to fix them? The man looks lost every week except when they play the Chiefs.

Good coaching can be seen no matter what the talent level is. I have yet to see good coaching from Gailey and his staff.

I am confident the issues will be fixed because Nix has commented on the very things that we feel need to be changed. Nix has already come out and been aggressive with his comments about a new QB and also about getting an impact LB.

Gailey will not have a choice. Its the GM's job to build the team. Gailey to coach it. And I for one, maybe only one, think Gailey should get a shot with a young talented QB and a couple more impact players on O and D.

[DraftBoy]

Binns is not even on the team any more! Hawkins is a decent slot guy, certaintly not a true #2 and Sanu has been injured alot with a few good games sandwiched in, that is it. Gresham is good, but not at the Gronkoswki/Graham level good.

Who said any of those guys were a true #2? The point is they have made up for the lack of #2 with a committee approach.

- - - Updated - - -


And with regards to Fitz. EVERYONE was fooled. The only difference is that everyone was fooled to a certain degree, some more than others. Some felt Fitz was a franchise QB for us for the next few years, some felt he was a good fill in until we get a true top ten guy and some felt he was a decent starter that would get us to the playoffs.

There was definitely a point where all Bills fans were in consensus that Fitz was the right option for that time. It turns out Fitz was never the answer and we should have been actively looking for a replacement.

Bull**** and you know that.

[justasportsfan]

Gailey will not have a choice. Its the GM's job to build the team. Gailey to coach it. And I for one, maybe only one, think Gailey should get a shot with a young talented QB and a couple more impact players on O and D.

It's NIx's job to build the team but it's Gailey's job to put things together and get them ready on gameday. After 3 years he hasn't PROVEN to be able to make the team AT LEAST competitive.

[EDS]

And with regards to Fitz. EVERYONE was fooled. The only difference is that everyone was fooled to a certain degree, some more than others. Some felt Fitz was a franchise QB for us for the next few years, some felt he was a good fill in until we get a true top ten guy and some felt he was a decent starter that would get us to the playoffs.

There was definitely a point where all Bills fans were in consensus that Fitz was the right option for that time. It turns out Fitz was never the answer and we should have been actively looking for a replacement.

I would argue most Bills fans knew from day one that Fitz was a back-up that in the best of times was a stop-gap/journeyman starter. Only people who know nothing about football thought he was anything more.

[OpIv37]

And with regards to Fitz. EVERYONE was fooled. The only difference is that everyone was fooled to a certain degree, some more than others. Some felt Fitz was a franchise QB for us for the next few years, some felt he was a good fill in until we get a true top ten guy and some felt he was a decent starter that would get us to the playoffs.

There was definitely a point where all Bills fans were in consensus that Fitz was the right option for that time. It turns out Fitz was never the answer and we should have been actively looking for a replacement.

There was never a consensus on Fitz. In fact, as bad as the Bills have been, the only time I remember a true consensus on this website was that Tim Anderson sucks. He was the ultimate uniter.

[Mahdi]

Who said any of those guys were a true #2? The point is they have made up for the lack of #2 with a committee approach.

- - - Updated - - -



Bull**** and you know that.

Yer saying you never had any hope or any positive feel that Fitz could take us to the playoffs? If not then congrats to you.

[psubills62]

I am confident the issues will be fixed because Nix has commented on the very things that we feel need to be changed. Nix has already come out and been aggressive with his comments about a new QB and also about getting an impact LB.

Gailey will not have a choice. Its the GM's job to build the team. Gailey to coach it. And I for one, maybe only one, think Gailey should get a shot with a young talented QB and a couple more impact players on O and D.
Except the issues with coaching don't have to do with getting new players. Yeah, that will help, but getting better players helps every coach. Like I said, good coaching shows no matter what the talent level is. Gailey misuses good players now, why is that going to change with more good players?

[justasportsfan]

Yer saying you never had any hope or any positive feel that Fitz could take us to the playoffs? If not then congrats to you.

Even Fitz said this was his make or break year. He broke and Gailey couldn't fix him like Harbaugh was able to fix Smith.

[Mahdi]

Even Fitz said this was his make or break year. He broke and Gailey couldn't fix him like Harbaugh was able to fix Smith.

Smith is actually talented. He's a big mobile QB with a good arm. He has been tossed from OC to OC his whole career though. He didn't need fixing he needed stability.

[justasportsfan]

Smith is actually talented. He's a big mobile QB with a good arm. He has been tossed from OC to OC his whole career though. He didn't need fixing he needed stability.

I don't care. Gailey had 3 years to fix his anointed qb. And here we are today with a broken qb who is not any better than he was last year under Gailey. IMO, Gailey wouldn't have made Smith what he is today.

I gave Gailey 3 years just like Jauron. After 3 years, the team isn't better. Time to move on. We are risking having to start over with a new HC, but I'll take a risk with the unknown than stay with the KNOWN which is a team that isn't better after 3 years despite having better players.

[Historian]

You know, it's funny.

Three years ago, after Gailey was hired, I wrote that it was a bad hire because he was a proven loser, and at best, a decent o coordinator.

And everybody threw bottles at me. (except OP)

Now everybody wants his scalp, and all it took was three more wasted seasons for most of you to come around.

Understand this, the dysfunction of this franchise goes way deeper than the current coach who is in over his head, and the current QB who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

I've been following this team for 45 years, and I am convinced that we are doomed to failure until an entire new regime owns the team.

keep him...fire him...neither really matters much anymore.

[OpIv37]

keep him...fire him...neither really matters much anymore.

It'll be Russ Brandon's call because it comes down to ticket sales. Which will be easier for the fans to stomach? Staying the course rather than introducing more uncertainty and starting the resources over, or fresh blood to try to turn this thing around? Whichever one Brandon thinks is easier to market will be the way they go.

[pmoon6]

You know, it's funny.

Three years ago, after Gailey was hired, I wrote that it was a bad hire because he was a proven loser, and at best, a decent o coordinator.

And everybody threw bottles at me. (except OP)

Now everybody wants his scalp, and all it took was three more wasted seasons for most of you to come around.

Understand this, the dysfunction of this franchise goes way deeper than the current coach who is in over his head, and the current QB who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

I've been following this team for 45 years, and I am convinced that we are doomed to failure until an entire new regime owns the team.

keep him...fire him...neither really matters much anymore.Ya know, it's gotten really bad when 45 and 50 year supporters don't care anymore. At the beginning of the year, I didn't have any excitement at all. I looked at the games with interest, but little optimism. For people that suffered through the '70's (oh wait..we had O.J. SIMPSON), the excitement and then disappointment of the Super Bowl years, a glimmer of hope with Wade, a great defense and Flutie, then the debacle of the last 12 years, they just can't take it anymore. Thank you Ralph, you finally beat us into submission. I hope your grandkids enjoy all the money we poured into your pockets.

[justasportsfan]

You know, it's funny.

Three years ago, after Gailey was hired, I wrote that it was a bad hire because he was a proven loser, and at best, a decent o coordinator.

And everybody threw bottles at me. (except OP)

Now everybody wants his scalp, and all it took was three more wasted seasons for most of you to come around.

Understand this, the dysfunction of this franchise goes way deeper than the current coach who is in over his head, and the current QB who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

I've been following this team for 45 years, and I am convinced that we are doomed to failure until an entire new regime owns the team.

keep him...fire him...neither really matters much anymore.My argument was that everyone deserved a second chance. Just like Levy, Bellicheat and Caroll. Now Dick , Wanny and Chan had their second chances and should never be a HC anymore.

[Historian]

Ya know, it's gotten really bad when 45 and 50 year supporters don't care anymore.

The period from 67-72 was rough, but this last 12 years has been unprecedented. Sadder still, given we now have free agancy to help build a winning program quicker.

Even though we only had three winning seasons in the 70s, (73, 74, and 75) at least RW seemed engaged in the process.

Bottom out in 76 and 77? Go hire Knox.

Tank in 84 and 85? Promote Polian, bring in Levy, and throw money at the QB you drafted three years ago.

I don't see that anymore. Just a revolving door of second rate coaches, and high draft picks that didn't pan out for us.

Its a shame too. I've lived in several places, and this town is as loyal as it gets.

[paladin warrior]

:no:

[kingJofNYC]

nah

[TrEd FTW]

Funny thread.

15-32 overall. 3-14 against the AFC East. 5-19 on the road. One victory against a team with a winning record.

Anyone who wants that back deserves these horrific results.

[Mahdi]

Funny thread.

15-32 overall. 3-14 against the AFC East. 5-19 on the road. One victory against a team with a winning record.

Anyone who wants that back deserves these horrific results.

I'm not surprised with the reaction really. Cinci fans were probably screaming for a new coach for 5 years. Marvin was crappy too, apparently he is good now.

I don't doubt that Gailey should have done some things differently, but I also don't doubt that no matter what he did differently this season, we were always going to lose because you just don't win in this league without a QB unless you have the 2000 Ravens D or the 2010 Jets.

I get that our record has been horrible with Gailey but I think we are putting way too much stock in the impact a coach has vs the impact a QB has.

Just look at Denver. Manning made that team a 13-3 team. Not John Fox.

If Gailey had either of the Mannings or even Schaub or Flacco we would not be in this position. Didn't everyone run Kevin Gilbride out of town because he was the worst OC ever? What now he is a genius suddenly?

[EDS]

I'm not surprised with the reaction really. Cinci fans were probably screaming for a new coach for 5 years. Marvin was crappy too, apparently he is good now.

I don't doubt that Gailey should have done some things differently, but I also don't doubt that no matter what he did differently this season, we were always going to lose because you just don't win in this league without a QB unless you have the 2000 Ravens D or the 2010 Jets.

I get that our record has been horrible with Gailey but I think we are putting way too much stock in the impact a coach has vs the impact a QB has.

Just look at Denver. Manning made that team a 13-3 team. Not John Fox.

If Gailey had either of the Mannings or even Schaub or Flacco we would not be in this position. Didn't everyone run Kevin Gilbride out of town because he was the worst OC ever? What now he is a genius suddenly?

If the absence of a QB is the real problem shouldn't Nix get fired for not addressing the position? Buddy has not even tried to upgrade the position - which was an obvious problem spot from the day he rejoined the organization as a scout.

[Mahdi]

If the absence of a QB is the real problem shouldn't Nix get fired for not addressing the position? Buddy has not even tried to upgrade the position - which was an obvious problem spot from the day he rejoined the organization as a scout.

Well its not like Buddy passed on a QB that was an obvious choice. Obviously he missed out on some diamonds in the rough like Dalton and Wilson and Kaepernick but those are toss up type players that had lots of question marks.

Nix has made some encouraging comments though about how he plans to address it and I am interested to see what he comes up with.

[starrymessenger]

Yer saying you never had any hope or any positive feel that Fitz could take us to the playoffs? If not then congrats to you.
My view was always that Fitz was at best a journeyman backup. I was relying entirely upon what I thought I was seeing. After seeing the Jets game a couple of years ago at the Rogers Centre I wad absolutely convinced that he was not a starting NFL QB. I could not believe how inaccurate his throws were.
But you know what? You are right. I did have (faint) hope that he could prove me wrong. I was prepared to defer judgement. The reason was that two people who have forgotten more football than I will ever know kept saying that he could get it done.
Well they were wrong, completely off base in their evaluation. This is one reason why I think Chan especially should leave (I suspect that Chan sold Fitz to Buddy and Ralph). What I thought I saw was obvious, but it was not obvious to Chan. I know nothing, and Chan apparently knows less. Buddy too should probably fold his tent.

[EDS]

I'm not surprised with the reaction really. Cinci fans were probably screaming for a new coach for 5 years. Marvin was crappy too, apparently he is good now.

I don't doubt that Gailey should have done some things differently, but I also don't doubt that no matter what he did differently this season, we were always going to lose because you just don't win in this league without a QB unless you have the 2000 Ravens D or the 2010 Jets.

I get that our record has been horrible with Gailey but I think we are putting way too much stock in the impact a coach has vs the impact a QB has.

Just look at Denver. Manning made that team a 13-3 team. Not John Fox.

If Gailey had either of the Mannings or even Schaub or Flacco we would not be in this position. Didn't everyone run Kevin Gilbride out of town because he was the worst OC ever? What now he is a genius suddenly?

I should add that Marvin Lewis took the Bengals to the playoffs in his third season with the team with an 11-5 record. Add that to the fact that he did not have a losing record in his first two seasons with the team (8-8 both seasons) after taking over a team that was 2-14 the prior season.

[better days]

Yer saying you never had any hope or any positive feel that Fitz could take us to the playoffs? If not then congrats to you.

Well, I HAD hope & a positive feel Fitz could take us to the playoffs, but that is LONG gone.

[EDS]

Well its not like Buddy passed on a QB that was an obvious choice. Obviously he missed out on some diamonds in the rough like Dalton and Wilson and Kaepernick but those are toss up type players that had lots of question marks.

Nix has made some encouraging comments though about how he plans to address it and I am interested to see what he comes up with.

Doing nothing is an indictment of Buddy's enture tenure as GM. You have to take a chance to win and he has failed to even roll the dice. The fact that there now appear to be multiple non-first round QBs drafted in the past two seasons with starting potential are the nails in his coffin.

[psubills62]

I'm not surprised with the reaction really. Cinci fans were probably screaming for a new coach for 5 years. Marvin was crappy too, apparently he is good now.

I don't doubt that Gailey should have done some things differently, but I also don't doubt that no matter what he did differently this season, we were always going to lose because you just don't win in this league without a QB unless you have the 2000 Ravens D or the 2010 Jets.

I get that our record has been horrible with Gailey but I think we are putting way too much stock in the impact a coach has vs the impact a QB has.

Just look at Denver. Manning made that team a 13-3 team. Not John Fox.

If Gailey had either of the Mannings or even Schaub or Flacco we would not be in this position. Didn't everyone run Kevin Gilbride out of town because he was the worst OC ever? What now he is a genius suddenly?
Marvin Lewis went 8-8 his first year with Cincinnati. That's top-notch compared to the crap we've got. Also went 11-5 his third year. How on earth is Gailey at all comparable to Lewis?

Again, this whole idea that if Gailey has the right players, he'll be a great coach. No. Nearly every coach looks good with great players. Good coaching is different and you can see it even with bad players. Gailey is not a good coach.

Good grief, your post is beyond ridiculous.

[better days]

Doing nothing is an indictment of Buddy's enture tenure as GM. You have to take a chance to win and he has failed to even roll the dice. The fact that there now appear to be multiple non-first round QBs drafted in the past two seasons with starting potential are the nails in his coffin.

It is not that Buddy did nothing these past 3 years. He has added many good players & kept good players from leaving. I think at least a couple QB's he had his eye on were drafted before he anticipated they would be & I expect him to draft one high this year. If he fails to do that, I will be on board with getting rid of him.

[Mahdi]

I should add that Marvin Lewis took the Bengals to the playoffs in his third season with the team with an 11-5 record. Add that to the fact that he did not have a losing record in his first two seasons with the team (8-8 both seasons) after taking over a team that was 2-14 the prior season.

Didn't he have an in form Carson Palmer? Chad, Housh etc?

[stuckincincy]

I'm not surprised with the reaction really. Cinci fans were probably screaming for a new coach for 5 years. Marvin was crappy too, apparently he is good now.



Marvin is not good now. Folks still scream.

He still can't tell time - ran them out of timeouts early in 2 close games this year.

His record of successful challenges is 29 out of 66.

He still believes that if a rookie doesn't look "good" in practice, he won't play. Finally started rookie Mohamed Sanu in game #10...garnered 4 tds in 3 games before breaking his foot in practice.

Lately, he decided to start C Kyle Cook, returning from 8-game IR. Sat down rookie C Trevor Robinson. Result: Dalton sacked 12 times in 2 games, 14 yards team rushing against PIT.

Gailey...

[Mahdi]

Marvin Lewis went 8-8 his first year with Cincinnati. That's top-notch compared to the crap we've got. Also went 11-5 his third year. How on earth is Gailey at all comparable to Lewis?

Again, this whole idea that if Gailey has the right players, he'll be a great coach. No. Nearly every coach looks good with great players. Good coaching is different and you can see it even with bad players. Gailey is not a good coach.

Good grief, your post is beyond ridiculous.

So a good coach takes bad players to the playoffs? When?

Also, I believe Gailey brought along Johnson, Jackson, Spiller, Chandler, entire OL, Nelson and Jones. Of those players ONE is a first rounder. The rest are 7th round or undrafted.

Is that not progressing and good coaching? When was the last time we had that many good players on offense?

[OpIv37]

So a good coach takes bad players to the playoffs? When?

Also, I believe Gailey brought along Johnson, Jackson, Spiller, Chandler, entire OL, Nelson and Jones. Of those players ONE is a first rounder. The rest are 7th round or undrafted.

Is that not progressing and good coaching? When was the last time we had that many good players on offense?

Progress is only measured in one way: wins.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

So a good coach takes bad players to the playoffs? When?

Also, I believe Gailey brought along Johnson, Jackson, Spiller, Chandler, entire OL, Nelson and Jones. Of those players ONE is a first rounder. The rest are 7th round or undrafted.

Is that not progressing and good coaching? When was the last time we had that many good players on offense?

Jackson, Levitre, Wood, and Johnson were already on the team when Gailey arrived. Jackson already had a 1000 yard season under his belt.

And let's be clear here, we aren't talking about a dominant unit here. He's taken past "average" once, and that was in the lockout season.

[jimmifli]

Ultimately, I'd like to see Gailey stick around as a consultant to the new OC. He can scheme. He can draw up plays. He can find matchups and exploit them. He gets production out of a bunch of cast offs. From Monday to Saturday he's a pretty solid OC.

But as a coach he's awful. He can't motivate. He has no interest in defense. He hasn't developed any younger coaches. And as a play caller he's awful. He brings very little to the organization.

Ideally, he could contribute in a role like Dick Lebeau filled for us years ago on defense. He seems like a nice enough guy and the players like him.

[justasportsfan]

Mahdi you'd have an argument if Gailey at least beat the teams he should've beaten . He didn't . He lost to the titans, Colts, fins. Teams that are in their first year and 2nd year of rebuilding and made Sanchez look like a franchise qb.

[EDS]

It is not that Buddy did nothing these past 3 years. He has added many good players & kept good players from leaving. I think at least a couple QB's he had his eye on were drafted before he anticipated they would be & I expect him to draft one high this year. If he fails to do that, I will be on board with getting rid of him.

He did nothing to improve the most important position on the field that also happened to be one of the teams biggest weaknesses the day he took the GM job!!!!!!!! How is that not a complete fail given he has had three years to act? Look at the QBs who have come into the league in that time! Look at the impact of free agent signings like Payton Manning! Why not role the dice on a Nick Foles or Kirk Cousins? Both will be much better than Fitz and both could have easily been drafted, let alone Wilson, Dalton and Kaepernick. Neither Foles nor Cousins may end up as a long term answer but based on limited playing time they are likely to end up no worse then Fitz with more upside.

[X-Era]

Marvin Lewis went 8-8 his first year with Cincinnati. That's top-notch compared to the crap we've got. Also went 11-5 his third year. How on earth is Gailey at all comparable to Lewis?

Again, this whole idea that if Gailey has the right players, he'll be a great coach. No. Nearly every coach looks good with great players. Good coaching is different and you can see it even with bad players. Gailey is not a good coach.

Good grief, your post is beyond ridiculous.Lewis had better quarterbacking which always helps. And Kubiak is another one who was kept until the quarterback situation became good enough to win. He did not have a winning season in his first 3 years.

[better days]

He did nothing to improve the most important position on the field that also happened to be one of the teams biggest weaknesses the day he took the GM job!!!!!!!! How is that not a complete fail given he has had three years to act? Look at the QBs who have come into the league in that time! Look at the impact of free agent signings like Payton Manning! Why not role the dice on a Nick Foles or Kirk Cousins? Both will be much better than Fitz and both could have easily been drafted, let alone Wilson, Dalton and Kaepernick. Neither Foles nor Cousins may end up as a long term answer but based on limited playing time they are likely to end up no worse then Fitz with more upside.

Like I said, some QB's were drafted EARLIER than Gailey & most everyone else thought they would be. That list includeds Wilson, Dalton, Kaepernick, Cousins & Foles. Guys like Manning, Luck, RGIII, the Bills had no chance of getting. Like I said, if he fails to get us a GOOD QB this year, I will be on board with him being fired, but I expect him to get that QB this year, my hope is Mike Glennon.

[psubills62]

So a good coach takes bad players to the playoffs? When?

Also, I believe Gailey brought along Johnson, Jackson, Spiller, Chandler, entire OL, Nelson and Jones. Of those players ONE is a first rounder. The rest are 7th round or undrafted.

Is that not progressing and good coaching? When was the last time we had that many good players on offense?
That's a nice little straw man you created. I said you can see good coaching even with bad players. Don't remember saying anything about playoffs.

Chandler was a 4th rounder. Are you really giving Gailey credit for Fred Jackson? Levitre? Wood? These guys were all pretty good before Gailey even sniffed Buffalo air.

You seem to have a different definition of "good player" than I do. You've named 11 players on our offense and called them all good. But our offense blows, and apparently the ONLY reason is Fitzpatrick? Yeah, OK. Maybe it's just me, but if Fitzpatrick is so bad, why is he even here? You can talk about him fooling people all you want - Gailey saw him in practices, training camp, games, etc. At some point a good coach would have figured out this wasn't the guy. Or at least helped him improve. Why has neither of these things happened?

Talent is a lame excuse. The talent has been upgraded over the last three years. Not nearly as much as you seem to think it has been, but we've got two stars on the team that can be built around. Yet Gailey can only manage to eke out one more win than he did in 2010? Like I said, good coaching can be seen even despite poor talent. I don't see good coaching from Gailey with or without talent.

By the way, you gave Peyton Manning as an example of a QB making the difference. He improved Denver from 8 wins to 12 or 13. Jim Harbaugh went to San Fran and improved them from 6 wins to 13 without a QB change. I don't think that using singular examples proves anything (especially when you pick out one of the best QB's to ever play the game), but since that's how you wanted to play, there's a piece of evidence for coaching.

[psubills62]

Lewis had better quarterbacking which always helps. And Kubiak is another one who was kept until the quarterback situation became good enough to win. He did not have a winning season in his first 3 years.
The quarterbacking excuse is still a lame one. If Fitz isn't good, then either help him improve or find someone who is good. I know finding a QB isn't easy, but consider that they didn't even actually try to find someone. And Fitz has certainly not improved.

Kubiak actually showed improvement. And coincidentally, Houston started doing well when they hired a really good defensive coach. Gailey simply hires his old buddies who suck. That doesn't exactly scream good coach to me. Kubiak's worst season was 6-10. Gailey's best season is 6-10. Again, not really comparable, IMO.

I think people are over-analyzing. I watch the games and the team is just not coached well. Yes, I've seen some player development. Yes, I've seen one or two good games by Gailey. But unfortunately, you can't play the Chiefs every week. I've seen a lot, lot more bad than good. As much as I wish otherwise, Gailey is a bad coach. I gave him a chance and I don't see any reason why he should stay in Buffalo past next Monday.

[warsawbassman]

Marvin Lewis has had two really bad years in Cincy...........08, and 10' . Guess who his QB was for most of 08.....Fitz. You can't win with this guy. Probably unless you have an all time great head coach, and a team loaded with top notch talent on both sides of the ball, it's now been proven beyond a doubt that no team with out that will win with him, he is the biggest problem. Give Gailey a good QB and we would be better. How much better??? Who knows? I feel confident in saying probably at least .500 for the last two years........which is still not good enough. So IMHO they both should go.

[YardRat]

I'm not even going to bother going back and reading the entire thread, but Gailey has made more than enough mistakes in every facet of his responsibilities with zero positive results on the W-L record that cutting ties with him is the only answer at this point.

[Night Train]

He too indecisive in crunch time and hasn't a clue about Defense.

Plus we all missed the commitment ceremony where he married Fitz for life.

[BillsFever21]

Anybody who really thinks that Gailey can turn this team into a good consistent winner are probably the same type of fans who thought that we should've kept Jauron around too.

I'm so sick of seeing these posts and debating about this worthless pile of junk that we call a HC that's it not even worth anymore of my time.

[Novacane]

Chan still has one believer left. :lmao:

[Albany,n.y.]

Like I said, some QB's were drafted EARLIER than Gailey & most everyone else thought they would be. That list includeds Wilson, Dalton, Kaepernick, Cousins & Foles. Guys like Manning, Luck, RGIII, the Bills had no chance of getting. Like I said, if he fails to get us a GOOD QB this year, I will be on board with him being fired, but I expect him to get that QB this year, my hope is Mike Glennon.
If this statement doesn't prove how incompetent Nix & Gailey are nothing else does. It's Nix's & Gailey's friggin jobs not to be outsmarted in the draft. The list you stated has 5 guys where other teams OUTSMARTED Nix & or Gailey. A good draft rule is that after the 1st round, if you feel a player, and this goes 10x for a QB, has starting potential & you are high on him, you don't get cute & try to project when he will be available because if you think he has potential & your name is Buddy Nix, either he has no potential or there are about a dozen or more GMs who think he has potential & at least one of them will make damn sure he drafts him before you.

[better days]

If this statement doesn't prove how incompetent Nix & Gailey are nothing else does. It's Nix's & Gailey's friggin jobs not to be outsmarted in the draft. The list you stated has 5 guys where other teams OUTSMARTED Nix & or Gailey. A good draft rule is that after the 1st round, if you feel a player, and this goes 10x for a QB, has starting potential & you are high on him, you don't get cute & try to project when he will be available because if you think he has potential & your name is Buddy Nix, either he has no potential or there are about a dozen or more GMs who think he has potential & at least one of them will make damn sure he drafts him before you.

Well, Nix has had 3 drafts. I doubt he wanted to even draft a QB in the first 2 drafts unless one fell in his lap because there were so many holes to fill. I was really disappointed he did not draft a QB in this last draft. Like I said I will see how this next draft goes. If he drafts a GOOD QB, all is GOOD. If not, then I am on board with his going.

[JoeMama]

Lolz @ Nix.

Why draft good players when there are so many bad DB's to draft???

[kingJofNYC]

Can't believe we still have defenders, let's lock this thread to prevent further embarrassment.

This regime did worse than Levy/Jauron and a marketing guy pretending to be GM, the best draft we had was with a marketing man at the helm even though he took the biggest bust in team history, hell NFL history. Nix and Co havent improved the team beyond what they inherited, and probably made it worse in some ways (passing on QBs and relying on Fitz as the franchise QB).

These are well paid individuals who failed miserably, they don't need your symypathy on top of it. If you ****ed up as much as they did your boss would toss you aside without hesitation. I'm sure they're good men, but they don't have any business running this team with the way they've handled things. Don't make excuses for a couple of old well off men that failed to deliver what they themselves promised.

Nix has been telling us this team is better than people think since he got here, and yet all they managed is 15 wins in three years. Couple the bad coaching with terrible drafts, terrible personnel decisions, and you have the disaster that lays before us.

To hell with them, they'll be fine.

[Mr. Pink]

I would have rather kept Jauron than even hired Gailey in the first place.

[Mouldsie]

The last few weeks have sealed his fate. Good guy. Good coordinator. Not fit to be the HC of the Bills

[JoeMama]

The last few weeks have sealed his fate. Good guy. Good coordinator. Not fit to be the HC of the Bills

Same here.

I have a great deal of respect for the things he's done as an OC.

Maybe that's why I'm so disappointed he made such horrific gameday decisions in the first place.

The guy just isn't cut from the right cloth to be a HC.

[jamze132]

The QB sneak on first down was Fitz not Gailey. Fitz did it to avoid a delay of game.

The question begs to be asked though. Why oh why are we, every damn game, multiple times, having to either call a timeout or even run a QB sneak to beat the play clock? Why is there no sense of urgency to run the next play, especially when you're down a couple of scores? It's coaching, plain and simple.

I totally agree with you about Fitz, the guy isn't a starter for a playoff team, but Gailey is part of the problem.

[kishoph]

The way Gailey has handled the QB situation is a total failure, he put everything on Fitz, who at best is a career journeyman. Gailey designed an offense for a accurate, consistent QB, two of Fitz's weaknesses. Yet Gailey had an out with turning the offense towards CJ Spiller and failed miserably to do that. The way Tarvaris Jackson was handled was a complete joke, to bring in an experienced QB and not even give him the chance to practice the offense is ridiculous. Gailey kept insisting that Jackson didn't know the offense, Jackson said he had the offense down by week 5, yet wasn't even allowed to take reps from back-up Tyler Thigpen. Just for kicks, the win loss record of the three QB's are, Jackson is 17-18 as a starter, Fitz is 22-41-1 and Thigpen is 1-11. As for not drafting a QB high in the last 3 drafts, how much influence did Gailey have in that ? If your coach keeps telling you that the current QB is the answer to the position, are you going to spend a high pick on a position that is already filled ? Nix is not void of having made mistakes during his tenure here, but I believe that Gailey and Fitz need to go before Nix, although I have no problem with all 3 of them going.

[better days]

Nix has been telling us this team is better than people think since he got here, and yet all they managed is 15 wins in three years. Couple the bad coaching with terrible drafts, terrible personnel decisions, and you have the disaster that lays before us.

To hell with them, they'll be fine.

Nonsense. When Nix got here, he said the team was a mess & it would take at least 3 years to fix it. The team now has MUCH better talent than when Nix arrived & anyone that doesn't see that does not know football. The entire OL is MUCH better than when Nix arrived, as well as the DL. He has also added players at other positions as well, such as Spiller & Gilmore.

[kingJofNYC]

It's not nonsense, go back and listen to some of his interviews. He thought he could turn it around faster, and that the media/fans were selling the talent short.

[Mahdi]

Mahdi you'd have an argument if Gailey at least beat the teams he should've beaten . He didn't . He lost to the titans, Colts, fins. Teams that are in their first year and 2nd year of rebuilding and made Sanchez look like a franchise qb.

All three of those teams had better QBs than Fitz.

[better days]

It's not nonsense, go back and listen to some of his interviews. He thought he could turn it around faster, and that the media/fans were selling the talent short.

BS. You go back & listen to his interviews. He said it would take 3 years to turn this team around. He NEVER said the team could be turned around before that amount of time. This past season is the first time he said the Bills have more talent than they have shown on the field.

[justasportsfan]

I would have rather kept Jauron than even hired Gailey in the first place.

I thought about that too. At least with Jauron we could have had the 1st pick every year and had a chance with Luck without trying to tank the season , then I remembered the maybin pick.

[Historian]

I watch the games and the team is just not coached well. Yes, I've seen some player development. Yes, I've seen one or two good games by Gailey. But unfortunately, you can't play the Chiefs every week. I've seen a lot, lot more bad than good. As much as I wish otherwise, Gailey is a bad coach. I gave him a chance and I don't see any reason why he should stay in Buffalo past next Monday.

I agree.

This could be a tougher decision if they had beat the teams we all penciled them in to beat, but they haven't.

Meaning, if we were in the hunt at 8-7 or 9-6, and Fitz blew a couple games with his patented game-sealing interceptions, then you could almost point to the QB position as the quote..."real problem".

That isn't the case here. The Defense has been uncharacteristically awful, the playcalling questionable, the gameday management poor, and...oh, by the way...the quarterbacking has cost us a few games.

I think when you look at the big picture Mahdi, it pretty much spells out a change is in order.

It's a shame too. I appreciated his candor in press conferences. He was a breath of fresh air from Jauron, who sounded defeated the day he took the job.

[justasportsfan]

All three of those teams had better QBs than Fitz.

and whose fault is that? Gailey. Just like it was Jaurons fault for sticking with Trent.

Chan was not even able to keep these rookies in check, they had career days under his watch.

[EDS]

Well, Nix has had 3 drafts. I doubt he wanted to even draft a QB in the first 2 drafts unless one fell in his lap because there were so many holes to fill. I was really disappointed he did not draft a QB in this last draft. Like I said I will see how this next draft goes. If he drafts a GOOD QB, all is GOOD. If not, then I am on board with his going.

Hello!!! The biggest hole was and remains QB!!!!!!!!

But sure, Nix is a genius for ignoring the position entirely and astute to pick up gems such as Aaron Williams. Could you imagine if Buddy Nix passed on Aaron Williams in the 2011 draft and selected either Dalton or Kaepernick, or or if he, gasp, passed on T.J. Graham and took Wilson or Foles? Imagine the holes on the roster . . .

[better days]

Hello!!! The biggest hole was and remains QB!!!!!!!!

But sure, Nix is a genius for ignoring the position entirely and astute to pick up gems such as Aaron Williams. Could you imagine if Buddy Nix passed on Aaron Williams in the 2011 draft and selected either Dalton or Kaepernick, or or if he, gasp, passed on T.J. Graham and took Wilson or Foles? Imagine the holes on the roster . . .

The biggest hole NOW is QB. When Nix got to BUffalo, the OL was TERRIBLE. If a QB were drafted before Nix fixed the OL, he would have ended up like David Carr, shellshocked. Carr could have been a VERY good QB had he been drafted by the right team. I already said I was disapointed the Bills did not draft a QB yet. This is the time to do so.

[Mr. Pink]

I thought about that too. At least with Jauron we could have had the 1st pick every year and had a chance with Luck without trying to tank the season , then I remembered the maybin pick.

Oddly enough, this year if Jauron was still here, I think we might actually be playing a meaningful football game this Sunday.

I do know we wouldn't be sitting at 5-10 right now as his offense wouldn't have been tailored around Fitzsuck and throwing the ball constantly.

We'd be better defensively and would be running the ball a heck of a lot more with him in charge and that combined with our weak schedule, us sitting at 8-7 today or even 9-6 isn't too much of a stretch.

[justasportsfan]

Oddly enough, this year if Jauron was still here, I think we might actually be playing a meaningful football game this Sunday. I doubt the bills would have gone 6-10 the year he was fired.


I do know we wouldn't be sitting at 5-10 right now as his offense wouldn't have been tailored around Fitzsuck and throwing the ball constantly.
trent would still be throwing 5 yard bombs for this team.

[better days]

Oddly enough, this year if Jauron was still here, I think we might actually be playing a meaningful football game this Sunday.

I do know we wouldn't be sitting at 5-10 right now as his offense wouldn't have been tailored around Fitzsuck and throwing the ball constantly.

We'd be better defensively and would be running the ball a heck of a lot more with him in charge and that combined with our weak schedule, us sitting at 8-7 today or even 9-6 isn't too much of a stretch.

If Jauron were still in Buffalo, he would have drafted 3 more Aaron Maybins & the Bills would still be 7-9. NO THANKS

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Oddly enough, this year if Jauron was still here, I think we might actually be playing a meaningful football game this Sunday.

I do know we wouldn't be sitting at 5-10 right now as his offense wouldn't have been tailored around Fitzsuck and throwing the ball constantly.

We'd be better defensively and would be running the ball a heck of a lot more with him in charge and that combined with our weak schedule, us sitting at 8-7 today or even 9-6 isn't too much of a stretch.

The thought of Sheppard trying to play Tampa 2 MLB makes me cringe.

[Mr. Pink]

I doubt the bills would have gone 6-10 the year he was fired.
trent would still be throwing 5 yard bombs for this team.

Because Ryan Fitzpatrick is so much better?

Also this years schedule opened itself up for an outside playoff shot with almost anyone...plus Jauron lucked out in one season for the Bears so it could have happened for him here too.

Trent wouldn't be here anymore regardless of HC.

[better days]

Because Ryan Fitzpatrick is so much better?

Also this years schedule opened itself up for an outside playoff shot with almost anyone...plus Jauron lucked out in one season for the Bears so it could have happened for him here too.

Trent wouldn't be here anymore regardless of HC.

Why do you think Trent would not be the QB if Jauron were still here? Dick stuck by Trent until the bitter end. That is the reason Dick is no longer in Buffalo. Just as Chan will be gone because he stuck with Fitz when he should have cut the cord on him.

[justasportsfan]

Because Ryan Fitzpatrick is so much better?

Also this years schedule opened itself up for an outside playoff shot with almost anyone...plus Jauron lucked out in one season for the Bears so it could have happened for him here too.

Trent wouldn't be here anymore regardless of HC.

As bad as Fitz is ,he's better than Trent for sure. Don't know about that, Trent was his anointed qb and stuck with him til he got fired. Besides, who would Jauron picked as a qb after the Maybin debacle? Even if he picked Luck, he would have turned Luck into a dink and dunk qb. It's his philosophy.

Jauron coulnd't beat the browns, don't think he could have beaten them this year either.

[jimmifli]

The thought of Sheppard trying to play Tampa 2 MLB makes me cringe.

Well nobody would complain about all his down field tackles, since he wouldn't be close enough to the receiver he was assigned to to actually make the tackle.

I'd still rather have Poz, even at his ****ty contract than Sheppard at is cheap contract. And I thought Poz sucked. Quite the double standard in fans criticism.

[Mahdi]

Wow, this is really sad isn't it.

We had Trent for the Jauron era and Trent's backup for the Gailey era. Its no surprise both coaches failed. Gailey I blame less because Fitz showed hope and promise.

I'm very curious to know how Gailey feels about Fitz right now...

[EDS]

Wow, this is really sad isn't it.

We had Trent for the Jauron era and Trent's backup for the Gailey era. Its no surprise both coaches failed. Gailey I blame less because Fitz showed hope and promise.

I'm very curious to know how Gailey feels about Fitz right now...

Trent showed hope and promise at the beginning too. Then he got beat up due to poor offensive line play and he never was the same again.

[X-Era]

First, and please pay close attention to my standing on this, I am indifferent as to whether they should fire Gailey or keep him. Do not accuse me of wanting to keep him. That simply isn't true.

But, for the sake of argument, riddle me this:

Who exactly is WILLING to take this job that is an obvious upgrade?

Brian Shottenheimer turned down the chance to interview. If ANY marquee name is willing to take the job we should pounce.

Does anyone seriously think we can land a marquee HC? Even a highly touted college coach?

If not, we should be thinking about what exactly we accomplish by simply getting another Gailey type. Replacing a cheap knock-off HC with another cheap knock-off HC doesn't really do anything unless that new HC overachieves. It could happen but that's not a clear route to success.

And look, I understand anyone wanting to spew hate on the guy. His record is what it is. But, how many games did Gailey himself lose for us? Because it could be argued that the defensive scheme and crappy QB were the main culprits... Not Gailey. Even when he chose not to kick the question is whether he played percentages and knew the chance Lindell could hit a long kick was small.

Yes, Gailey has a part in starting Fitz and claiming he's just fine (which he could simply be doing just because he's supposed to as the HC), and starting Freddy too long. But that's less about coaching and more about loyalty to your starters or even talent evaluation. The loyalty should be expected from a HC; I can't really fault him for what he says publicly about Fitz. I can fault him for playing Freddy so much. And the eval part isn't primarily his job. It's a part of his job but not his primary one. He has to cook with the ingredients he has more than he gets to shop for the groceries. That's the way it is.

I can fault him for not playing CJ enough. But, I can't point to many glaring game day blunders that cost us games... I think a crappy DC and crappy QB cost us much more than Gailey did.

Will he stick with Wanny? I'm not so sure. Especially is he gets told he has to can him or be canned.

It would be easier for me to run him out of town is he had a whole bunch of game day blunders. He had some and some were poor play call choices on critical downs. There were some but not a huge number. And again, Fitz blew a ton of throws and plays.

[TrEd FTW]

Who exactly is WILLING to take this job that is an obvious upgrade?

No one knows the answer to that, though it'd be hard to not find an upgrade over Gailey. Besides, three years ago ≠ right now. The Bills have some better talent and they're a more stable franchise with their new lease. Plus, in 2010, M. Schottenheimer, one of the winningest coaches ever, and Billick, who's well above .500 with a Super Bowl ring, both wanted the job if you're to believe Tim Graham (which I do). Who knows who else did?

[X-Era]

But, to argue the other side, here's a few things too:

He had a 8 win roster IMO. He only won 5 (to date). He did call plays that asked Fitz to make critical throws. He can't be trusted and many of us in many of those game sat there and said to ourselves: "watch Fitz throw an INT to lose the game". If we can see it, you're telling me the coaches can't? If they truly can't then they can't put us in the best position to win.

He had two years of get-out-of-jail-free-cards with an inadequate roster. This roster is good enough for at least two more wins. His choice of a new DC and his choice to put the teams fortunes in Fitz's hands too often cost us as well.

[EDS]

But, to argue the other side, here's a few things too:

He had a 8 win roster IMO. He only won 5 (to date). He did call plays that asked Fitz to make critical throws. He can't be trusted and many of us in many of those game sat there and said to ourselves: "watch Fitz throw an INT to lose the game". If we can see it, you're telling me the coaches can't? If they truly can't then they can't put us in the best position to win.

He had two years of get-out-of-jail-free-cards with an inadequate roster. This roster is good enough for at least two more wins. His choice of a new DC and his choice to put the teams fortunes in Fitz's hands too often cost us as well.

Have you looked at the Bills schedule this season? Bills played five games against teams with rookie starting QBs and an additional five games against teams with AWFUL QBs (KC, Jets, Titans, Arizona and jacksonville), with one more game to go against Sanchez.

How can Chan not win even half his games against this pathetic lot? Think of it, the Jets and Dolphins are both terrible and they still have managed at least as many wins as the Bills

And by the way, Chan gets the blame for hiring Wannstadt which was an awful choice from day one and reeks of cronyism even more now that we see the results.

[X-Era]

Have you looked at the Bills schedule this season? Bills played five games against teams with rookie starting QBs and an additional five games against teams with AWFUL QBs (KC, Jets, Titans, Arizona and jacksonville), with one more game to go against Sanchez.

How can Chan not win even half his games against this pathetic lot? Think of it, the Jets and Dolphins are both terrible and they still have managed at least as many wins as the Bills

And by the way, Chan gets the blame for hiring Wannstadt which was an awful choice from day one and reeks of cronyism even more now that we see the results.Again, I'm looking at Fitz and the defense led by Wanny as the main culprit.

Gailey does take blame for hiring Wanny. I agree.

KC, Ari, and Jax were all wins.
Titans I lay a lot of blame on Fitz.
The first Jets outing I blame the Wanny led defense along with Fitz

Titans loss:

"And quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8664/ryan-fitzpatrick) continues to raise questions about his inconsistencies. Though he finished 27 of 35 for 225 and three scores, he had two costly turnovers that led to Titans touchdowns. That included his ill-advised pass on third-and-6 that was intercepted by Jason McCourty (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/12691/jason-mccourty) at midfield with 2:57 to set up the decisive score.

Fitzpatrick blamed himself."I got greedy in a situation where I didn't have any business being greedy in," Fitzpatrick said, referring to his attempt to force a pass to Donald Jones (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13597/donald-jones) at the right sideline. "It was a dumb throw and dumb decision by me. Third down, and game on the line, (coach) Chan (Gailey) put the ball in my hands, and I throw an interception. That one hurts.""

http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=321021002

First Jets game:

"Fitzpatrick was 18 of 32 for 195 yards and three touchdowns -- to Chandler, Stevie Johnson, Donald Jones (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13597/donald-jones) -- and the three interceptions."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=320909020

“To summarize it they were running too wide open and we didn’t get enough pressure on the passer,” said Gailey. “We stopped the run pretty good until they ran it some late. We stopped the run for the most part. We’ve just got too many people running too wide open right now and we’re not getting enough pressure on the passer and that’s something we’re going to address.”

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Bills-humbled-in-48-28-loss-to-Jets/b88269be-46b1-486a-b411-948cf10d8837

[GingerP]

Titans I lay a lot of blame on Fitz.

I realize Fitz had a couple of bad turnovers, but the Bills scored 34 points in that game and had 382 yards of offense. That wins most games.

Of course, the Bills defense allowed 35 points, 390 yards of offense and allowed 9-of-14 3rd down conversions. I'd say "a lot" of the blame lies there.

[X-Era]

I realize Fitz had a couple of bad turnovers, but the Bills scored 34 points in that game and had 382 yards of offense. That wins most games.

Of course, the Bills defense allowed 35 points, 390 yards of offense and allowed 9-of-14 3rd down conversions. I'd say "a lot" of the blame lies there.Defense was also to blame; I agree.

[kishoph]

It would be easier for me to run him out of town is he had a whole bunch of game day blunders. He had some and some were poor play call choices on critical downs. There were some but not a huge number. And again, Fitz blew a ton of throws and plays.


The list would be too long to post. it doesn't have to be something obvious to be a blunder, just the failure to adjust accordingly during the game is a major blunder and that's something that Gailey did throughout the season.

[BertSquirtgum]

There are lots of valid points here, no question about that. But I still feel that Gailey can improve and has an inside track on the team that will help him to fix what needs to be fixed.

You also have to take Nix into the equation. Nix has a good feel for what we all know needs to be fixed. I am fairly certain that he will ensure the issues are addressed.

Gailey, despite all his errors, can do better with better talent at key positions.

You guys forget that the Colts threw their OC in to the HC job and still did well. Luck is the reason for that. No one can tell me that Bruce Arians is such a special coach and the Colts have a super roster. Luck is the difference between us and them. And you can definitely argue that we have way more talent than they do on both sides of the ball.

Gailey made some errors this year, but with a talented QB he can have the Bills in the playoffs too.

What part of reality are you in up there? Get a ****ing clue.

[BertSquirtgum]

All of the idiots saying Fitz cost the games are right but who was the idiot that continued to start the bum? Chan ****ing Gailey. You're fired you stinking worthless waste of dna in a sperm.

[X-Era]

All of the idiots saying Fitz cost the games are right but who was the idiot that continued to start the bum? Chan ****ing Gailey. You're fired you stinking worthless waste of dna in a sperm.
If he was serious about winning, what other QB was a better option?

Why is it not possible that he simply was using the best QB currently on his roster.

But yes, Fitz stinks, I agree.

[better days]

As bad as Fitz is ,he's better than Trent for sure. Don't know about that, Trent was his anointed qb and stuck with him til he got fired. Besides, who would Jauron picked as a qb after the Maybin debacle? Even if he picked Luck, he would have turned Luck into a dink and dunk qb. It's his philosophy.

Jauron coulnd't beat the browns, don't think he could have beaten them this year either.

Exactly. Dick & Trent could not beat the Browns let alone the Patriots* Chan & Fitz are much better than Dick & Trent.

[Mr. Pink]

Exactly. Dick & Trent could not beat the Browns let alone the Patriots* Chan & Fitz are much better than Dick & Trent.

:rofl:

24-33 vs 15-32 and Gailey's better?

Some people never cease to amaze me.

[RedEyE]

I think Mahdi is right....to an extent. I like Gailey's spread offense and think the spread could really improve at the NFL level. I honestly believe if the Bills had a better QB they would have won several more games since "the streak" last year, even making the playoffs.

However, Gailey is a poor HC. His inability tho handle adversity and his poor game management shows he can't handle both the HC and OC jobs. He would be fine at OC. But he should be held accountable for not only his inabilities at HC but for the piss poor coaching from Wanndstedt. Not too mention poor game planning and coordination.

OC - yes. HC - no.

[better days]

:rofl:

24-33 vs 15-32 and Gailey's better?

Some people never cease to amaze me.

Quality of the wins also counts. Dick & Trent couldn't beat the Browns let alone the Pats*

[Mr. Pink]

Quality of the wins also counts. Dick & Trent couldn't beat the Browns let alone the Pats*

Quality of wins means jack. A win is a win is a win. They all count the same.

[better days]

Quality of wins means jack. A win is a win is a win. They all count the same.

They do all count the same, but if you can't beat the Browns what is the point? You are going NOWHERE. At least Chan & Fitz beat some GOOD teams, Dick & Trent never did.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

At least Chan & Fitz beat some GOOD teams

Such as?