Bills Should let Levitre walk !!!

[Bmax]

With Levitre sure to demand big money can we really afford him ? With our needs at LB, SS, CB, WR, TE..I say no he will command a salary of over 5 million plus a season at the very least more likely 6.5 to 8 mill.. Too much . Especially during a year when the draft offers some real good players at the position Guard is a position where you can find players in the draft every year. I say rd 3 for the bills. Guys like Pugh.. Winters.. Long.. Warford in rd 2 may be there for the taking...Plus with Urbik signed and Rhinehart a rfa the bills could get through a year while a guy get his feet wet...Value is better spent on a couple of positions mentioned above then all money on 7 mill plus guard...

Bmax

[T-Long]

If I had to choose between contract extensions for Byrd and Levitre, I am going with Byrd. If that means Levitre is gone, then so be it.

[coastal]

The only way I'm down with Levitre walking is if he's replaced with not just Warmack... but Loadholt or Flucker are added as well.

if not... Piss off loser.

[The Jokeman]

The only way I'm down with Levitre walking is if he's replaced with not just Warmack... but Loadholt or Flucker are added as well.

if not... Piss off loser.

Why the love for Loadholt? I'll admit I'm usually one that screams for improvement on the O-line every year but it's not going to happen this offseason. The only way I take Warmack is if we trade down and some teams gives us a teen draft pick and another pick in the mid to late 2nd Round.

[coastal]

Why the love for Loadholt? I'll admit I'm usually one that screams for improvement on the O-line every year but it's not going to happen this offseason. The only way I take Warmack is if we trade down and some teams gives us a teen draft pick and another pick in the mid to late 2nd Round.
Loadholt isn't a great pass blocker but has made improvements but he's a BEAST with run blocking... Hint... CJ Spiller is a running back.

building around a strength.

[The Jokeman]

Loadholt isn't a great pass blocker but has made improvements but he's a BEAST with run blocking... Hint... CJ Spiller is a running back.

building around a strength.

In other words Loadholdt is what you expect out of a RT. CJ was as dynamic as he was with in 2012 Hairston manning RT imagine what he might do with a healthy Erik Pears who helped Freddie out in 2011. Building on strength is a good thought but improving on weaknesses is a better thought if ask me.

[Lefty2985]

I agree. Byrd over Andy.

[coastal]

In other words Loadholdt is what you expect out of a RT. CJ was as dynamic as he was with in 2012 Hairston manning RT imagine what he might do with a healthy Erik Pears who helped Freddie out in 2011. Building on strength is a good thought but improving on weaknesses is a better thought if ask me.
Erik Pears sucks.

[Mr. Pink]

They won't be able to afford keeping him if they want to improve the team overall and Byrd is a MUST keep.

[The Jokeman]

Erik Pears sucks.

I think he's better than Hairston.

[coastal]

I think he's better than Hairston.
Agreed... Different flavors of the same loaf however.

[BertSquirtgum]

The Bills shouldn't let Byrd or Levitre walk. Very dumb if they do so, anyone that thinks otherwise is dumb too.

[THRILLHO]

No. I am sick of actually drafting good players, then letting them walk. We always complain about our crappy drafts. But when we do draft someone of value and with talent, we don't resign because we'd have to pay them "too much money for what they are worth." You stay in a state of rebuild if you keep opening holes, and thats what would happen if Levitre is not here next year.

[Buddo]

No. I am sick of actually drafting good players, then letting them walk. We always complain about our crappy drafts. But when we do draft someone of value and with talent, we don't resign because we'd have to pay them "too much money for what they are worth." You stay in a state of rebuild if you keep opening holes, and thats what would happen if Levitre is not here next year.

It isn't just the Bills who do, or have to do, this though. It's a double edged sword - the better your draft class is in any given year, the more likely you are to lose some of those players, when FA comes around. There are a lot of teams with the same sort of issues, and a lot of those teams, will let a good player walk.

[THRILLHO]

It isn't just the Bills who do, or have to do, this though. It's a double edged sword - the better your draft class is in any given year, the more likely you are to lose some of those players, when FA comes around. There are a lot of teams with the same sort of issues, and a lot of those teams, will let a good player walk.

Our draft classes are never "better." Some teams can have great drafts and then not have to worry about dropping a couple of those good picks. We get so few good players out of a draft we cannot let them go. When we draft 3 or more quality starters per year consistently I will be ok with letting some walk.

[ServoBillieves]

Yeah! Let's cut a proven talent we could franchise tag and with all of our holes draft someone to fill a NEW hole without re-structuring other deals!

/end of stupidity

[IlluminatusUIUC]

With Levitre sure to demand big money can we really afford him ? With our needs at LB, SS, CB, WR, TE..I say no he will command a salary of over 5 million plus a season at the very least more likely 6.5 to 8 mill.. Too much . Especially during a year when the draft offers some real good players at the position Guard is a position where you can find players in the draft every year. I say rd 3 for the bills. Guys like Pugh.. Winters.. Long.. Warford in rd 2 may be there for the taking...Plus with Urbik signed and Rhinehart a rfa the bills could get through a year while a guy get his feet wet...Value is better spent on a couple of positions mentioned above then all money on 7 mill plus guard...

Bmax

My god, drafting a lineman in the 2nd round, developing through his rookie contract and then letting him walk so we can draft his replacement in the second round?

IT'S UTTER GENIUS

[Night Train]

I wish to keep both Byrd and Levitre. I do believe it will be far more difficult to sign Levitre, who may be wanting to test the market to see his worth. You only need one team to throw silly $$ at him and I'm sure his agent is advising him of that. There is a far greater chance he leaves.

I do think Byrd can be signed before FA starts at a far more reasonable price.

[clumping platelets]

He's not worth $9-10 million/season to prevent him from going to FA. He will want that because the tag of OL is over $10 million

[X-Era]

He's not worth $9-10 million/season to prevent him from going to FA. He will want that because the tag of OL is over $10 millionThat's exactly it. It's not a matter of whether we would like Levitre back... of course we would. It's a matter of what will it cost. And more importantly what will it then prevent us from doing once we spent the money on him.

This team still doesn't have a QB... or any starting quality LB'er... or a starting SS... or a #2 CB...

[YardRat]

Levitre is worth a middle of the road, slightly above average contract for a guard, because that's what he is. If he's even thinking of trying to wring out silly tag money that includes the numbers for centers and tackles also, than the team is better off letting him walk.

[coastal]

I thought it was okay to overpay for a limp wristed DE, but for Levitre its not?

can someone are to explain exactly how that works?

[Mahdi]

Erik Pears sucks.

No he doesn't. He battled injuries last season and was slower. In 2011 he was very good.

[Mahdi]

I thought it was okay to overpay for a limp wristed DE, but for Levitre its not?

can someone are to explain exactly how that works?

He wasn't limp wristed when we signed him and he still managed 10.5 sacks with that limp wrist. Levitre is worth 5-6 mil. If he wants more than that he might find a desperate team or two to pay it.

[better days]

He wasn't limp wristed when we signed him and he still managed 10.5 sacks with that limp wrist. Levitre is worth 5-6 mil. If he wants more than that he might find a desperate team or two to pay it.

Whatever Levitre is worth to any other team, he should be worth at least that much to the Bills. Sign Byrd. Transition tag Levitre.

[THATHURMANATOR]

This thread does make perfect sense though guys.

Sure we all like Levitre and he is probably our best O lineman. Why mess with that right?

With that said the position he plays is one of the easiest to replace in Football, and we have a capable backup (rinehart, Brown). Add in that this is a deep draft for guards this thread is on the money. Sure it will probably disrupt the offensive line a bit and no one wants that but overall this move would make great football sense.

Two Scenarios:

1) We break the bank for Levitre, a guard, which will hinder our ability to get better at more important positions ie Linebacker, WR, Safety.
While the line stays in tact we still have no one to catch the ball or make tackles.

2) We let Levitre walk, there is a battle between Rinehart, Brown, Draftee for the open position. The best man wins. We use our extra cap room to bring in that Linebacker or WR that is urgently needed. In this scenario the line does take a step back but not a giant one as Rinehart and Brown have proved very capable. Depth isn't overly eaten away either.

I know we constantly ***** about letting young talent walk but to me this is a no brainer. I really do like Levitre and would love to have the Bills to find a way to make it work for all sides but I just dont' see it happening.

[better days]

This thread does make perfect sense though guys.

Sure we all like Levitre and he is probably our best O lineman. Why mess with that right?

With that said the position he plays is one of the easiest to replace in Football, and we have a capable backup (rinehart, Brown). Add in that this is a deep draft for guards this thread is on the money. Sure it will probably disrupt the offensive line a bit and no one wants that but overall this move would make great football sense.

Two Scenarios:

1) We break the bank for Levitre, a guard, which will hinder our ability to get better at more important positions ie Linebacker, WR, Safety.
While the line stays in tact we still have no one to catch the ball or make tackles.

2) We let Levitre walk, there is a battle between Rinehart, Brown, Draftee for the open position. The best man wins. We use our extra cap room to bring in that Linebacker or WR that is urgently needed. In this scenario the line does take a step back but not a giant one as Rinehart and Brown have proved very capable. Depth isn't overly eaten away either.

I know we constantly ***** about letting young talent walk but to me this is a no brainer. I really do like Levitre and would love to have the Bills to find a way to make it work for all sides but I just dont' see it happening.

Not long ago the Bills WASTED a BOATLOAD of money signing Derrick Dockery. 7 years, $49 MILLION, $18 Million signing bonus. Levitre is MUCH better than Dockery, just PAY the man.

[Pinkerton Security]

No he doesn't. He battled injuries last season and was slower. In 2011 he was very good.

Id hardly say he was "very good"..he was average at best.

- - - Updated - - -


With Levitre sure to demand big money can we really afford him ? With our needs at LB, SS, CB, WR, TE..I say no he will command a salary of over 5 million plus a season at the very least more likely 6.5 to 8 mill.. Too much . Especially during a year when the draft offers some real good players at the position Guard is a position where you can find players in the draft every year. I say rd 3 for the bills. Guys like Pugh.. Winters.. Long.. Warford in rd 2 may be there for the taking...Plus with Urbik signed and Rhinehart a rfa the bills could get through a year while a guy get his feet wet...Value is better spent on a couple of positions mentioned above then all money on 7 mill plus guard...

Bmax

And then if we let Levitre go, we have a gaping hole at LG.


Why are people so concerned about the money? Lets spend it, hes our best o-lineman! Everyone *****es about us being cheap, so why would we complain about re-signing an obviously talented player, and a proven one?

[Bert102176]

If we would cut Kelsey's ars and Anderson's we could afford it and still have money for freeAgency

[chernobylwraiths]

That's exactly it. It's not a matter of whether we would like Levitre back... of course we would. It's a matter of what will it cost. And more importantly what will it then prevent us from doing once we spent the money on him.

This team still doesn't have a QB... or any starting quality LB'er... or a starting SS... or a #2 CB...

So add a little more money and add a starting quality OG to the list?

I don't understand creating an additional hole to save money.

[coastal]

If we would cut Kelsey's ars and Anderson's we could afford it and still have money for freeAgency
Cutting Anderson doesn't save us any cap money.

why Kelsay is still here is beyond me.

[Night Train]

Not long ago the Bills WASTED a BOATLOAD of money signing Derrick Dockery. 7 years, $49 MILLION, $18 Million signing bonus. Levitre is MUCH better than Dockery, just PAY the man.

You could say the same now concerning Mario Williams, Fitz, Kelsay and a few others.

Not so much they wasted $$ signing these players but spent far too much, comprimising other positions when talent is needed.

Saying " Just Pay The Man " only makes sense if you don't have a cap. Other players will be coming up next year...but why think ahead ? :rolleyes:

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Why do people keep saying it's so "easy" to find guards? Are you remembering the circus of bums we went through at that position after Ruben Brown left? Remember Ross Tucker? Mike Gandy? Bennie Anderson? Dockery's already been mentioned. That's five seasons and four attempts to fill "the easiest position to replace" before we stopped farting around and took Levitre in the 2nd.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You could say the same now concerning Mario Williams, Fitz, Kelsay and a few others.

Not so much they wasted $$ signing these players but spent far too much, comprimising other positions when talent is needed.

Saying " Just Pay The Man " only makes sense if you don't have a cap. Other players will be coming up next year...but why think ahead ? :rolleyes:

The difference between Levitre and Fitz or Kelsay is that Levitre is actually good at what he does. Kelsay and Fitz are massive liabilities and no one would be complaining about those contracts if they were out there balling.

As for the 2014 free agents, lets look at who comes off the books in 2014.
http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/2014/buffalo-bills/

<tbody>
Dan Batten (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/dan-batten/)
DE
RFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Alex Carrington (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/alex-carrington/)
DT
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Scott Chandler (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/scott-chandler/)
TE
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Aaron Corp (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/aaron-corp/)
QB
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Hutch Eckerson (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/hutch-eckerson/)
T
RFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Chris Hogan (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/chris-hogan/)
WR
ERFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Tarvaris Jackson (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/tarvaris-jackson/)
QB
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Greg Lloyd (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/greg-lloyd/)
LB
ERFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Arthur Moats (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/arthur-moats/)
LB
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Jay Ross (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/jay-ross/)
DT
ERFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Chris Scott (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/chris-scott/)
G
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Mana Silva (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/mana-silva/)
S
RFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Torell Troup (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/torell-troup/)
DT
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Thomas Welch (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/thomas-welch/)
T
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Eric Wood (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/eric-wood/)
C
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--


Sam Young (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/sam-young/)
T
UFA
Buffalo
TBD


--

</tbody>

Wood is the only player on there I'd be sad to lose, and even then, only if he finally and unexpectedly fixed his run of injuries. 2015 has got a few more names, but then Jackson should be retiring, Brad Smith's horrendous contract should be ending, and if the Bills are smart - Fitz's cap penalties would be cleared.

[JoeMama]

The entire front office can go suck a boner if they let Andy Levitre walk.

Textbook facepalm move if it happens.

[Mahdi]

Whatever Levitre is worth to any other team, he should be worth at least that much to the Bills. Sign Byrd. Transition tag Levitre.

Yeah exactly, transition tag him and only match a reasonable contract. Someone is always willing to way overpay though. If someone offers 8 mil I wouldn't match that. Levitre is good but he's not Carl Nicks/Jahri Evans.

[Mahdi]

Id hardly say he was "very good"..he was average at best.


- - - Updated - - -



And then if we let Levitre go, we have a gaping hole at LG.


Why are people so concerned about the money? Lets spend it, hes our best o-lineman! Everyone *****es about us being cheap, so why would we complain about re-signing an obviously talented player, and a proven one?

No he was very good. Fitz rarely got pressured off the right side in 2011.

[chernobylwraiths]

You could say the same now concerning Mario Williams, Fitz, Kelsay and a few others.

Not so much they wasted $$ signing these players but spent far too much, comprimising other positions when talent is needed.

Saying " Just Pay The Man " only makes sense if you don't have a cap. Other players will be coming up next year...but why think ahead ? :rolleyes:

But why let your most dependable/injury free and possibly best OL go to stick in "some guy" who might or might not be very good just to save a few bucks.

Sure they need to fill holes, but you don't create more holes in the process of filling them with unproven guys. This guy is PROVEN. He's the ONLY offensive lineman we have had to play every game and he takes nearly naked pictures of his wife and posts them. How can you let a guy like that go?

[chernobylwraiths]

Why do people keep saying it's so "easy" to find guards? Are you remembering the circus of bums we went through at that position after Ruben Brown left? Remember Ross Tucker? Mike Gandy? Bennie Anderson? Dockery's already been mentioned. That's five seasons and four attempts to fill "the easiest position to replace" before we stopped farting around and took Levitre in the 2nd.

Parcells once said something about it being easy to find guards.

[justasportsfan]

for those who say we should let them walk... I don't want to hear you guys ever ***** about our draft ever again. We finally hit it right with these guys and then now that it's time to pay them for getting it right, we should let them walk?

If their replacements suck, YOU ASKED FOR IT !

[THATHURMANATOR]

Not long ago the Bills WASTED a BOATLOAD of money signing Derrick Dockery. 7 years, $49 MILLION, $18 Million signing bonus. Levitre is MUCH better than Dockery, just PAY the man.

I don't see your logic. You made the point that signing Dockery, a guard, to big money was a waste.

Why make the same mistake twice?

I would agree with you that Levitre is better but really how much better honestly?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Id hardly say he was "very good"..he was average at best.

- - - Updated - - -



And then if we let Levitre go, we have a gaping hole at LG.


Why are people so concerned about the money? Lets spend it, hes our best o-lineman! Everyone *****es about us being cheap, so why would we complain about re-signing an obviously talented player, and a proven one?

I am worries only about cap space. Since we have so little and so many needs I am prioritizing where it is spent.

I won't be mad if they keep Levitre either.

[better days]

I don't see your logic. You made the point that signing Dockery, a guard, to big money was a waste.

Why make the same mistake twice?

I would agree with you that Levitre is better but really how much better honestly?

Dockery pined to be back in Washington from the minute he signed with Buffalo. He said he watched all the Redskins games after he came to Buffalo. I don't think his heart was in it & he did not give his all. Levitre is happy in Buffalo, he just wants to be paid. I think he is worth at least as much to the Bills as any other team would pay him.

[justasportsfan]

Why make the same mistake twice?

I would agree with you that Levitre is better but really how much better honestly?


Make the same mistake twice? We signed a crappy player in Dockery. Levitre is the best lineman we have. Levitre is way better than Dockery.

[justasportsfan]

I am worries only about cap space. Since we have so little and so many needs I am prioritizing where it is spent.

I won't be mad if they keep Levitre either.

you can see the difference of signing guys like MArio and Anderson who haven't been worth what they're being paid so far. Levitre was played well enough to be worth it.

[Mahdi]

for those who say we should let them walk... I don't want to hear you guys ever ***** about our draft ever again. We finally hit it right with these guys and then now that it's time to pay them for getting it right, we should let them walk?

If their replacements suck, YOU ASKED FOR IT !

I get what you are saying, but, you can't overpay a guy just cause you drafted him. And the G position you can hide or address with a FA or draft pick more easily than a safety or CB or OT or WR.

I don't think our cap situation is so good that we can sign Byrd and Levitre to over 7 mil a season contracts and also address other critical needs.

[better days]

I get what you are saying, but, you can't overpay a guy just cause you drafted him. And the G position you can hide or address with a FA or draft pick more easily than a safety or CB or OT or WR.

I don't think our cap situation is so good that we can sign Byrd and Levitre to over 7 mil a season contracts and also address other critical needs.

I disagree. The Bills are in very good shape capwise compared to the vast majority of teams. If they cut more dead weight like Kelsey they will be in even better shape.

The Bills can ABOLUTELY sign BOTH Byrd & Levitre with no problem. I would rather see both them back than a FA from another team that we have no idea how he will play in Buffalo.

[justasportsfan]

I get what you are saying, but, you can't overpay a guy just cause you drafted him. And the G position you can hide or address with a FA or draft pick more easily than a safety or CB or OT or WR.

I don't think our cap situation is so good that we can sign Byrd and Levitre to over 7 mil a season contracts and also address other critical needs.

while I agree that he will cost a lot, a player like Levitre is more valuable for a struggling team like the bills. If we were a proven team like the Pats, we may be able to do without a guy like him. If we draft a qb all the more it's more important to keep him upright or we'll have a scared qb like Trent all over again.

[justasportsfan]

I disagree. The Bills are in very good shape capwise compared to the vast majority of teams. If they cut more dead weight like Kelsey they will be in even better shape.

The Bills can ABOLUTELY sign BOTH Byrd & Levitre with no problem. I would rather see both them back than a FA from another team that we have no idea how he will play in Buffalo.

we have the money. Why spend it on outside guys who could turn out to be like Dockery and so far Mario and Anderson who haven't played up to what we're paying them so far. He's also been more durable than Wood.

[The Jokeman]

we have the money. Why spend it on outside guys who could turn out to be like Dockery and so far Mario and Anderson who haven't played up to what we're paying them so far. He's also been more durable than Wood.

There's no guaranteeing any player we have now will have the same success we saw in year's prior as 1)There's no guarantees in the NFL except some signing/performance bonus and 2)The new coaching staff is bringing in a new schemes etc. and there's no telling how good/bad it will effect any of our players.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

There's no guaranteeing any player we have now will have the same success we saw in year's prior as 1)There's no guarantees in the NFL except some signing/performance bonus and 2)The new coaching staff is bringing in a new schemes etc. and there's no telling how good/bad it will effect any of our players.

There's no guarantee any player will have success under Marrone. Why would you only apply this logic to Levitre?

IMO, you need to build your scheme around your talented players.

[justasportsfan]

There's no guaranteeing any player we have now will have the same success we saw in year's prior as 1)There's no guarantees in the NFL except some signing/performance bonus and 2)The new coaching staff is bringing in a new schemes etc. and there's no telling how good/bad it will effect any of our players.

I agree there are no guarantees .There is also no guarantee that anyone we bring in to replace these players will not end up like Dockery. if Levitre was in line for his 3rd contract, let him go. He's young enough for another contract.

While I'm no expert when it comes to Marrone, I can see Levitre fit because he's our best pulling OL player. He's mean.

[better days]

There's no guaranteeing any player we have now will have the same success we saw in year's prior as 1)There's no guarantees in the NFL except some signing/performance bonus and 2)The new coaching staff is bringing in a new schemes etc. and there's no telling how good/bad it will effect any of our players.

Well, we KNOW Levitre, the kind of man he is. He will show up & work his ass off every day. He has started every game since the day he was drafted. Very few players in the NFL can say that, especially on this team.

[better days]

And anyone that wants to let Levitre walk, don't you think the Bills have enough holes to fill???? Why create one more?

[cookie G]

Why do people keep saying it's so "easy" to find guards? Are you remembering the circus of bums we went through at that position after Ruben Brown left? Remember Ross Tucker? Mike Gandy? Bennie Anderson? Dockery's already been mentioned. That's five seasons and four attempts to fill "the easiest position to replace" before we stopped farting around and took Levitre in the 2nd.

I forgot all about Bennie Anderson. I'll throw in Mike Pucillo and Aaron Merz on the "you can always find replacements" list.

But you are already hearing people say, "yeah, well we have Rinehart and we re-signed Colin Brown!" It has shades of "Well Bell is just as good as Jason Peters anyways!".

And we already signed Urbik for more than 3 million a year, so you'll hear the 'well, at least we got one of the two".

I think people look at a lineman and say.."he's over 6 feet and is over 300 lbs...what else do you want?"

All you really have to do is watch the pass protection on an average play and Levitre's value should be understood.

On a pass play, if Wood isn't covered, he moves to his right the vast majority of the time. He's helping out either Urbik or Rinehart, depending on who is playing. He rarely moves to the left to help Levitre.

Levitre is pretty much expected to take on his guy without help. And yet, he finished top among guards in PFF pass blocking efficiency. That doesn't even get into his ability to pull or block at the 2nd level.

If they replace him with someone good, it isn't a problem.

If he's replaced with Rinehart or Brown...problem.

Who is Wood now assigned to help?

He helps Urbik...Rinehart is in trouble. He helps Rinehart...Urbik is in trouble.

Now Urbik IS a guy that is easily replaceable. Guys that get help on most of their plays are.

But whatever...we got one of the 2. And we signed Colin Brown!!

[YardRat]

Some have been crowing about how good our offensive line has been over the past two seasons (not me, but...), including using descriptives such as 'best' or 'one of the best' in the league. That's been accomplished with...an oft-injured 'vet' and rookies at LT (Bell, Hairston, Glenn), Levitre at LG (who also saw spot duty and failed miserably at LT and C), an oft-injured center backed up by a street FA G at center (Wood, Urbik), street FA's at RG (Urbik, Rhinehart, Brown), and rookies/street FA's at RT (Hairston, Pears, Brown, Young).

If they can be so good with rookies and cast-offs (Levitre sure as **** isn't doing it all on his own), why the hell should the team break the bank for one guy when he can obviously be so easily replaced?

[YardRat]

And anyone that wants to let Levitre walk, don't you think the Bills have enough holes to fill???? Why create one more?

One more? How many more holes are you going to create cutting other players to make Levitre's new contract fit?

[chernobylwraiths]

One more? How many more holes are you going to create cutting other players to make Levitre's new contract fit?

Most of the people we would be cutting are crap anyway. You don't let one of your better players walk for a few journeymen and some unknowns. It is ridiculous. If he becomes one of the highest paid guards, I'm fine with that.

[YardRat]

Most of the people we would be cutting are crap anyway. You don't let one of your better players walk for a few journeymen and some unknowns. It is ridiculous. If he becomes one of the highest paid guards, I'm fine with that.

Fair enough, but I'm not.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/2/19/4004160/buffalo-bills-depth-chart-2013-pre-combine-edition

Bills free agents: QB Tyler Thigpen, RB Tashard Choice, FB Corey McIntyre, HB Dorin Dickerson (ERFA), WR David Nelson (RFA), WR Ruvell Martin, TE Mike Caussin (ERFA), OG Andy Levitre, OG Chad Rinehart, DE Kyle Moore, DE Shawne Merriman, DT Spencer Johnson, LB Bryan Scott, LB Kirk Morrison, CB Leodis McKelvin, FS Jairus Byrd

Most can be replaced, Hopefully Nelson doesn't get an offer we have to match and Byrd will probably be tagged, but if it means deeper cuts are necessary to accommodate and we have to just let go the others that are bolded I'm not in favor of gutting the team.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Some have been crowing about how good our offensive line has been over the past two seasons (not me, but...), including using descriptives such as 'best' or 'one of the best' in the league. That's been accomplished with...an oft-injured 'vet' and rookies at LT (Bell, Hairston, Glenn), Levitre at LG (who also saw spot duty and failed miserably at LT and C), an oft-injured center backed up by a street FA G at center (Wood, Urbik), street FA's at RG (Urbik, Rhinehart, Brown), and rookies/street FA's at RT (Hairston, Pears, Brown, Young).

If they can be so good with rookies and cast-offs (Levitre sure as **** isn't doing it all on his own), why the hell should the team break the bank for one guy when he can obviously be so easily replaced?

"Rookies and castoffs"? Glenn, Levitre, and Wood were all drafted in the top 51 picks. You invest resources in the line and, suddenly and shockingly, it plays better. People are overrating Urbik and Reinhart - fine depth and reasonable starters but a significant step down from Levitre. Also, we're also forgetting the other bums we went through before we even found Urbik and Reinhart. Cordaro Howard? Mansfield Wrotto?


One more? How many more holes are you going to create cutting other players to make Levitre's new contract fit?

We have the cap room to sign Levitre. This isn't like the Ravens or Jets having to cut to the quick before they can think about their own - we have a significant amount to play with. The 2013 free agents are pretty well known, but look at the list of 2014 free agents I posted in #34. Who off that list are you worried about re-signing? Only Wood jumps out at me. The same is true of 2015. It's not until 2016 when we have to worry about guys like Spiller, Glenn, and Gilmore and we'll have a lot of contracts we can dump off the books by then.

[Night Train]

But why let your most dependable/injury free and possibly best OL go to stick in "some guy" who might or might not be very good just to save a few bucks.

Sure they need to fill holes, but you don't create more holes in the process of filling them with unproven guys. This guy is PROVEN. He's the ONLY offensive lineman we have had to play every game and he takes nearly naked pictures of his wife and posts them. How can you let a guy like that go?
You're arguing with yourself.

I want to keep him but this is what happens when you keep extending Kelsay, give Fitz an assinine deal, etc. Forces you to make financial decisions on good players.

[JoeMama]

I can't stand it when fans cite money as a justification for letting talent walk.

This isn't 1999 and we're not in any sort of cap trouble. Signing our best lineman to an above-average contract won't jeopardize the team's financial future. Hey, maybe we'll even win some ****ing games every once in a while if we make a habit of retaining good players. A mind-blowing concept, to be sure.

And it's not your money. What do you knuckleheads care if Ralph Wilson can afford an extra ivory back-stratcher? Why forego talent now because you're worried it will hurt us in three years? Have you guys forgotten that we haven't been to the playoffs in 13 years?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You're arguing with yourself.

I want to keep him but this is what happens when you keep extending Kelsay, give Fitz an assinine deal, etc. Forces you to make financial decisions on good players.

Of course. But nobody complains about a guy who's actually playing well on his deal. Is anyone crowing about Kyle Williams' extension?

[Bmax]

It's simple really if we have the room to sign him then go ahead.. but that's alot of money for a guard ..for a struggling team.. I repeat it is much easier to fill in a guard then any other line position..I see some post named past failures at og.. Past is the past this class is talented. They found Levitre they can find another...Have we forgotten FA ..I say fill the whole with Brandon Moore and move guys aroung to LG then draft a guy .. Then use the extra money to get that LB-Paul Kruger...Or Ellerbee...Or Bart Scott plus Landry...I feel it is better to make a unit better def. The whole line wont fall apart if he is gone...Keep Byrd Build Def .. Get a quality drafted QB then watch some real change.

[mikemac2001]

Agree with Bmax it kind of depends on price and if we have the room...OG shouldnt get OT money and we could use that money else where Def/WR/ and maybe even a cheaper alternative

[The Jokeman]

And anyone that wants to let Levitre walk, don't you think the Bills have enough holes to fill???? Why create one more?

I don't WANT the Bills to let go of Levitre but with the way it pays cash to cap it means that that if we do re-sign him it means passing on the chance to sign one other or possibly two other free agents. So the question is the loss of Levitre. the acquisition of say worth signing a starting LB and possible TE? As in my mock offseason I let go of Levitre for the sake of signing Dustin Keller and Dannell Ellerbe as to me the combination of Keller and Ellerbe is bigger than the retaining of Levitre alone but if had a choice would love to sign all three but can't see us doing that ever because the front office never pays to the full cap space we have. Case in point if we have $30million under the cap expect Wilson to only shell out $30million in total dollars this offseason which imagine us give put us under about $9 million under the actual cap.


It's simple really if we have the room to sign him then go ahead.. but that's alot of money for a guard ..for a struggling team.. I repeat it is much easier to fill in a guard then any other line position..I see some post named past failures at og.. Past is the past this class is talented. They found Levitre they can find another...Have we forgotten FA ..I say fill the whole with Brandon Moore and move guys aroung to LG then draft a guy .. Then use the extra money to get that LB-Paul Kruger...Or Ellerbee...Or Bart Scott plus Landry...I feel it is better to make a unit better def. The whole line wont fall apart if he is gone...Keep Byrd Build Def .. Get a quality drafted QB then watch some real change.
Moore's been a RG for most if not all of his career so I can't see us signing him to replace Levitre who's a LG and yes they are different positions. In terms of Bart Scott, I understand why people want him but he's an Eddie Robinson signing in my eyes in that he's well past his prime and while he might know the defense not sure he's quick enough to be effective. I mean if he was good enough to start I doubt the Jets be so quick to let him go if his cap number is as low as some have mentioned. Also I don't see the roster as we have it now fit to run a base 3-4 Defense as we lack a true NT and while Mario Williams can play rush OLB I think he's better suited as a DE and feel Kyle Williams is best played in a 4-3 DT role. Also I have questions about Kyle Moore, Bradham and Kelsay and Mark Anderson in a 3-4 front.

[YardRat]

"Rookies and castoffs"? Glenn, Levitre, and Wood were all drafted in the top 51 picks. You invest resources in the line and, suddenly and shockingly, it plays better. People are overrating Urbik and Reinhart - fine depth and reasonable starters but a significant step down from Levitre. Also, we're also forgetting the other bums we went through before we even found Urbik and Reinhart. Cordaro Howard? Mansfield Wrotto?

Glenn=rookie. Levitre=none of the above, limited to LG. Wood=injury prone. Bell=injury prone. Hairston=rookie in '11, and injury prone. Urbik, Rhinehart, Brown, Pears, Young=cast-offs. You can dress it up all you want, but that's how the offensive line has been built, or is susceptible to injury, and this is the same group of guys that many have exalted as at least one of the best in the league, like it or not. Howard and Wrotto for chrissakes? Really? Two guys that were lucky to land a spot for a single season at a time when the new GM was reeling in any warm body available? If they had lasted longer than the proverbial cup of coffee you might have a point. But they didn't, so it's moot.




We have the cap room to sign Levitre. This isn't like the Ravens or Jets having to cut to the quick before they can think about their own - we have a significant amount to play with.

Debatable. IMO it certainly isn't as high as some would like to think. Room to cut some more dead weight? Maybe, but every current roster cut = one more hole to fill, regardless of whether it's a starter or depth.


The 2013 free agents are pretty well known, but look at the list of 2014 free agents I posted in #34. Who off that list are you worried about re-signing? Only Wood jumps out at me. The same is true of 2015. It's not until 2016 when we have to worry about guys like Spiller, Glenn, and Gilmore and we'll have a lot of contracts we can dump off the books by then.

The 2013 FA are the priority right now, and the guys (if they choose to keep them) that are going to have to be signed to deals that fit within the cap. 2014 is a complete unknown at this point. From that specific list, at this very point in time, I would consider Carrington and Chandler as 'gotta haves', depending, as always, keeping them at a fair value. Who the hell knows yet as for most of the rest of the list? Hell, by this time next season the board could be wailing to re-sign ANY of them, depending on the season they have in 2013. Wood may be the only one that jumps out right now, but a lot can happen in the next twelve months. Bookmark this thread, I will guarantee right now that at least one player other than Wood from that list will be the next 'OMG we've gotta tag him I hope the cheap bastards don't let him walk!!!'.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Glenn=rookie. Levitre=none of the above, limited to LG. Wood=injury prone. Bell=injury prone. Hairston=rookie in '11, and injury prone. Urbik, Rhinehart, Brown, Pears, Young=cast-offs. You can dress it up all you want, but that's how the offensive line has been built, or is susceptible to injury, and this is the same group of guys that many have exalted as at least one of the best in the league, like it or not. Howard and Wrotto for chrissakes? Really? Two guys that were lucky to land a spot for a single season at a time when the new GM was reeling in any warm body available? If they had lasted longer than the proverbial cup of coffee you might have a point. But they didn't, so it's moot.

Of course they didn't last longer then a cup of coffee - they sucked. A whole lot of street free agents suck. How long do you wanna dive through that barrel again? And I agree with you that Wood is injury prone, which is why Levitre and not Wood should be the priority.


Debatable. IMO it certainly isn't as high as some would like to think. Room to cut some more dead weight? Maybe, but every current roster cut = one more hole to fill, regardless of whether it's a starter or depth.

Yeah, but those are much easier holes to fill.


The 2013 FA are the priority right now, and the guys (if they choose to keep them) that are going to have to be signed to deals that fit within the cap. 2014 is a complete unknown at this point. From that specific list, at this very point in time, I would consider Carrington and Chandler as 'gotta haves', depending, as always, keeping them at a fair value. Who the hell knows yet as for most of the rest of the list? Hell, by this time next season the board could be wailing to re-sign ANY of them, depending on the season they have in 2013. Wood may be the only one that jumps out right now, but a lot can happen in the next twelve months. Bookmark this thread, I will guarantee right now that at least one player other than Wood from that list will be the next 'OMG we've gotta tag him I hope the cheap bastards don't let him walk!!!'.

See, this is the crux of the dispute. You are so worried about losing backups and busts like Alex Carrington and Spencer Johnson that you are willing to let one of the best players on the team walk for nothing. That is a ridiculous way to build a team. Keep your talent. Stop making this harder than it has to be.

[YardRat]

Carrington and Johnson are talent. If the choice is between three or four quality depth players and one offensive guard, I'm taking the four over one every day of the week.

[better days]

You're arguing with yourself.

I want to keep him but this is what happens when you keep extending Kelsay, give Fitz an assinine deal, etc. Forces you to make financial decisions on good players.

Not really. The Bills have plenty of Money to sign Byrd & Levitre. We are not in a situation like the Jets or Ravens.

[better days]

Carrington and Johnson are talent. If the choice is between three or four quality depth players and one offensive guard, I'm taking the four over one every day of the week.

The Bills have enough money to sign EVERYONE they want to.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Carrington and Johnson are talent. If the choice is between three or four quality depth players and one offensive guard, I'm taking the four over one every day of the week.

Except we keep letting starters walk, so our "quality depth" becomes "starters in over their head." That's how you wind up with guys like Donald Jones becoming your opening day #2 wideout. Carrington and Johnson are absolutely nothing special, and I would happily let them walk and replace them with street free agents or late round draft picks rather than letting guys like Levitre walk.

[Night Train]

Not really. The Bills have plenty of Money to sign Byrd & Levitre. We are not in a situation like the Jets or Ravens.

I would like to think that is true and maybe so. But they still need 2 starting LB's, a #2 WR, 1-2 TE's, QB, CB or 2, another Safety besides Byrd...Can't all happen in the draft. FA costs $$. Then Eric Wood and a couple others are up next year.

If they cut Kelsay, that would help a lot.

[chernobylwraiths]

Fair enough, but I'm not.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/2/19/4004160/buffalo-bills-depth-chart-2013-pre-combine-edition

Bills free agents: QB Tyler Thigpen, RB Tashard Choice, FB Corey McIntyre, HB Dorin Dickerson (ERFA), WR David Nelson (RFA), WR Ruvell Martin, TE Mike Caussin (ERFA), OG Andy Levitre, OG Chad Rinehart, DE Kyle Moore, DE Shawne Merriman, DT Spencer Johnson, LB Bryan Scott, LB Kirk Morrison, CB Leodis McKelvin, FS Jairus Byrd

Most can be replaced, Hopefully Nelson doesn't get an offer we have to match and Byrd will probably be tagged, but if it means deeper cuts are necessary to accommodate and we have to just let go the others that are bolded I'm not in favor of gutting the team.

Wait, you let Levitre walk but want to keep a backup in Rinehart? I would like to keep Nelson as well, but he is clearly expendable as is everyone on that list with the exception of Byrd. People wanted McKelvin gone years ago and now that he is a good return man we have to keep him?

You don't let a good player walk, especially one of your best, for money if he is interested in staying.

[chernobylwraiths]

I would like to think that is true and maybe so. But they still need 2 starting LB's, a #2 WR, 1-2 TE's, QB, CB or 2, another Safety besides Byrd...Can't all happen in the draft. FA costs $$. Then Eric Wood and a couple others are up next year.

If they cut Kelsay, that would help a lot.

I'm all for one year of cap hell and possibly the first overall pick if it means retaining both. Then we could get out from under the Fitz contract and others and have a boatload to look for good free agents.

Funny, some people say that we can find just as good a guard in the draft this year. I hear others saying this is the worst draft in many years and many here will talk about how poor our drafting record is. But we will definitely find a guy as good as Levitre, and waste a draft pick on a position we didn't really need to while taking a prime draft pick away from areas of need we already had.

[Mahdi]

I disagree. The Bills are in very good shape capwise compared to the vast majority of teams. If they cut more dead weight like Kelsey they will be in even better shape.

The Bills can ABOLUTELY sign BOTH Byrd & Levitre with no problem. I would rather see both them back than a FA from another team that we have no idea how he will play in Buffalo.

Yes they can easily sign Levitre and Byrd, but we have other needs too. WR, 2 LBs, 2 CBs, S, C, DE, DT and 2 TE. So do we have the cap space to pay a guard 7 mil per season when we have so much to address? No. we don't.

McKelvin is FA and even if he is retained we need another CB. McGee gone and Williams might be a safety. Barnett gone and unsure about Shepp. We need 2 LBs. Chandler might not be ready to start season and we also had no one behind him, so 2 TEs. Our pass rush lacked speed so I'm sure we'll add another DE. I also think we need a power DT added that can play as a NT.

Wilson is gone now and Searcy looked promising but you still need depth at S. You also need to sign a vet QB.

Basically, this is a team with a new coaching staff and many new needs as a result. Paying Levitre is just not smart. We can add a 3rd round G in this draft and not be much worse on the OL.

[justasportsfan]

Paying Levitre is just not smart..

You are all over the place. You wanted to pay a crappy Whitner money that NO ONE was willing to pay him and yet you don't want to resign Levitre who is 10X better than Whitner. :rolleyes:

[better days]

Yes they can easily sign Levitre and Byrd, but we have other needs too. WR, 2 LBs, 2 CBs, S, C, DE, DT and 2 TE. So do we have the cap space to pay a guard 7 mil per season when we have so much to address? No. we don't.

McKelvin is FA and even if he is retained we need another CB. McGee gone and Williams might be a safety. Barnett gone and unsure about Shepp. We need 2 LBs. Chandler might not be ready to start season and we also had no one behind him, so 2 TEs. Our pass rush lacked speed so I'm sure we'll add another DE. I also think we need a power DT added that can play as a NT.

Wilson is gone now and Searcy looked promising but you still need depth at S. You also need to sign a vet QB.

Basically, this is a team with a new coaching staff and many new needs as a result. Paying Levitre is just not smart. We can add a 3rd round G in this draft and not be much worse on the OL.

There is this thing called the draft. Then you can also pick up players on the cheap that get cut by teams with cap problems which the Bills do not have.

[better days]

Agree with Bmax it kind of depends on price and if we have the room...OG shouldnt get OT money and we could use that money else where Def/WR/ and maybe even a cheaper alternative


I doubt Levitre gets OT money. He will get top tier OG money from the Bills or another team. I would prefer he gets it from the Bills.

People saying there are GOOD Guards available in the draft. If this is the case why would a team other than the Bills prefer to sign Levitre to a OT money FA contract rather than draft one?

[Mahdi]

There is this thing called the draft. Then you can also pick up players on the cheap that get cut by teams with cap problems which the Bills do not have.

How many players can you get through the draft that are ready to start right away? 2? 3? We have starting positions that need filling at WR, TE, OG, 2 LBs, DE, CB and QB and potentially safety. That's 8 starting players we need. We also need depth at many spots like WR, DT, CB, C and TE.

[Mahdi]

I doubt Levitre gets OT money. He will get top tier OG money from the Bills or another team. I would prefer he gets it from the Bills.

People saying there are GOOD Guards available in the draft. If this is the case why would a team other than the Bills prefer to sign Levitre to a OT money FA contract rather than draft one?

Because some teams are very close to being SB ready and don't have as many needs to fill. So they buy the proven commodity and make a run.

We don't even have a QB.

[better days]

Because some teams are very close to being SB ready and don't have as many needs to fill. So they buy the proven commodity and make a run.

We don't even have a QB.

Well, Levitre is a proven commodity on the Bills. There is no guarantee how he will play on another team. If so many GOOD GUARDS are available in the draft, why not just draft one of them? The rookie is sure to be as good as Levitre anyway according to some people on this board.

And just who are these Super Bowl ready teams with a NEED at OG & the MONEY to sign Levitre?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

WR, 2 LBs, 2 CBs, S, C, DE, DT and 2 TE. So do we have the cap space to pay a guard 7 mil per season when we have so much to address? No. we don't.

McKelvin is FA and even if he is retained we need another CB. McGee gone and Williams might be a safety. Barnett gone and unsure about Shepp. We need 2 LBs. Chandler might not be ready to start season and we also had no one behind him, so 2 TEs. Our pass rush lacked speed so I'm sure we'll add another DE. I also think we need a power DT added that can play as a NT.

You're awfully optimistic if you think the Bills can upgrade 11 positions in one offseason. Especially after deliberately downgrading one first.

First off, we have 8 defensive line on the active roster and 2 more in reserve, and that's before we offer a contract to Kyle Moore - which we should - or Spencer Johnson - which we probably shouldn't. The DL has had nearly $100 million in guaranteed dollars and the #3 and #41 picks thrown at it in the last three seasons. I think it's time to stop throwing money and bodies at that unit and try some real coaching.

Second, We do have multiple blocking tight ends on the roster. Not great ones, but if we pick a receiving TE in the draft (Jordan Reed is intriguing), that's plenty for now. Unless Marrone wants to starting running 2 or 3 receiving TE sets, which I have not heard about.


Wilson is gone now and Searcy looked promising but you still need depth at S.

You just said Aaron Williams belongs at safety, which I agree with. Provided we sign or tag Byrd, a very easy solution, that gives us Searcy, Byrd, and Williams. We can sign Jim Leonhard if Pettine wants his binkie back or bring back Scott to play safety again - I'm ok with either of those and both should be cheap options.


You also need to sign a vet QB.

We have two already under contract - Fitzpatrick and Jackson. I don't like that they are keeping Fitz, but if that's the case then we don't need another marginal vet to compete, we need a youngster to develop.


Basically, this is a team with a new coaching staff and many new needs as a result. Paying Levitre is just not smart. We can add a 3rd round G in this draft and not be much worse on the OL.

I still don't accept this fantasy that Levitre is just a replaceable cog. He's frequently graded out as one of the best guards in the game.

[better days]

How many players can you get through the draft that are ready to start right away? 2? 3? We have starting positions that need filling at WR, TE, OG, 2 LBs, DE, CB and QB and potentially safety. That's 8 starting players we need. We also need depth at many spots like WR, DT, CB, C and TE.

Well, here is an idea to fill the hole at OG........................fill it with Levitre!

Nix has said he is looking to draft a WR & TE. So the Bills NEED in addition, a couple LB's, CB, Safety, QB!

The Bills have plenty of money & if they cut Kelsey & Smith they will have another $6 Million or so. The Bills have plenty of cap space to keep their own FA's & sign one or two more.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

How many players can you get through the draft that are ready to start right away? 2? 3? We have starting positions that need filling at WR, TE, OG, 2 LBs, DE, CB and QB and potentially safety. That's 8 starting players we need. We also need depth at many spots like WR, DT, CB, C and TE.

You literally don't think we have enough DEs?

[justasportsfan]

We don't even have a QB.
and we will continue to not have a qb if you don't sign proven guys who can keep him upright especially if the qb you are getting is a rookie.

[The Jokeman]

My god, drafting a lineman in the 2nd round, developing through his rookie contract and then letting him walk so we can draft his replacement in the second round?

IT'S UTTER GENIUS

The Bills have been doing the same thing at CB ever since James Williams turned out to be a bust. Infact they've also done the same with RB lately too except they trade them before their contracts wear out.

[justasportsfan]

How many players can you get through the draft that are ready to start right away? 2? 3? We have starting positions that need filling at WR, TE, OG, 2 LBs, DE, CB and QB and potentially safety. That's 8 starting players we need. We also need depth at many spots like WR, DT, CB, C and TE.

You are creating another hole by letting Levitre walk and then to fill his position and the other positions with a mix of FA and rookies who may or may not pan out ! Your way would have us forever rebuilding.

[Jan Reimers]

Levitre and Byrd should be our top priorities among our own free agents. We have already released Barnett, Wilson, McGee and will not tender D. Jones. If we're still in trouble with the cap, we should release or restructure at least Fitz, Kelsay and B. Smith. There is other dead or dying wood on our roster as well, that should be chopped and burned, before we lose a quality player like Levitre.

[Mahdi]

You are creating another hole by letting Levitre walk and then to fill his position and the other positions with a mix of FA and rookies who may or may not pan out ! Your way would have us forever rebuilding.

No yer not building forever my way you are building with value.

Craig Urbik was found on the street and is now one of the top G in the AFC, he can also play C and do a good job. Levitre is better, there's no doubt about that, however at 7-8 mil the value is not there.

Look at Tampa, they went and signed Carl Nicks for 8 mil a season or something. He then went on IR. Doug Martin still went on to be the 5th leading rusher in the NFL at 4.6 ypc. So was Nicks (who is the best G in the NFL) really a necessary signing?

To address our needs which I have shown are many, does it make sense to use 8 mil a season in cap space on ONE OG when you can get two or 3 good players with that same money?

I would rather sign Cary Williams CB, Ravens and Danell Ellerbe at 4 mil each instead. That covers off two big needs which are much harder to replace than G. Rookie CBs especially, they struggle their first season or two.

[better days]

No yer not building forever my way you are building with value.

Craig Urbik was found on the street and is now one of the top G in the AFC, he can also play C and do a good job. Levitre is better, there's no doubt about that, however at 7-8 mil the value is not there.

Look at Tampa, they went and signed Carl Nicks for 8 mil a season or something. He then went on IR. Doug Martin still went on to be the 5th leading rusher in the NFL at 4.6 ypc. So was Nicks (who is the best G in the NFL) really a necessary signing?

To address our needs which I have shown are many, does it make sense to use 8 mil a season in cap space on ONE OG when you can get two or 3 good players with that same money?

I would rather sign Cary Williams CB, Ravens and Danell Ellerbe at 4 mil each instead. That covers off two big needs which are much harder to replace than G. Rookie CBs especially, they struggle their first season or two.

The Bucs will be a BETTER team this year with a healthy Nicks, YES he was worth signing.

[justasportsfan]

No yer not building forever my way you are building with value. and this is why the bills have sucked forever. Value instead of quality.


Look at Tampa, they went and signed Carl Nicks for 8 mil a season or something. He then went on IR. Doug Martin still went on to be the 5th leading rusher in the NFL at 4.6 ypc. So was Nicks (who is the best G in the NFL) really a necessary signing?
look at MArio Williams. Not playing to what we're paying him so far.


To address our needs which I have shown are many, does it make sense to use 8 mil a season in cap space on ONE OG when you can get two or 3 good players with that same money?

I would rather sign Cary Williams CB, Ravens and Danell Ellerbe at 4 mil each instead. That covers off two big needs which are much harder to replace than G. Rookie CBs especially, they struggle their first season or two.


with your way of thinking, why should we even bother developing rookies in house if we're just going to let them go to another team once they're developed. Lets not even draft players and keep signing FA's from other teams.

Are we going to let Spiller go when his contract is up?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Craig Urbik was found on the street and is now one of the top G in the AFC,

Er, No. He's a fine player but he's not even one of the top guards in the AFC East.


Look at Tampa, they went and signed Carl Nicks for 8 mil a season or something. He then went on IR. Doug Martin still went on to be the 5th leading rusher in the NFL at 4.6 ypc. So was Nicks (who is the best G in the NFL) really a necessary signing?

Martin is a freak and they picked on some weak run defenses like Oakland, Philly, and First-seed-locked-up Atlanta. I doubt they regret the decision, just like I doubt Minny regretted signing Hutchinson.


To address our needs which I have shown are many, does it make sense to use 8 mil a season in cap space on ONE OG when you can get two or 3 good players with that same money?

You've arbitrarily decided that things like DT and DE are needs. And then you've double-counted backup safety and backup CB as a need - either Aaron Williams is our backup safety or our backup CB but in either case he's under contract and taking up one of those slots.

[Mahdi]

and this is why the bills have sucked forever. Value instead of quality.
look at MArio Williams. Not playing to what we're paying him so far.



with your way of thinking, why should we even bother developing rookies in house if we're just going to let them go to another team once they're developed. Lets not even draft players and keep signing FA's from other teams.

Are we going to let Spiller go when his contract is up?


There is a big difference between a G and a key playmaker who is one of a kind in the league.

[justasportsfan]

There is a big difference between a G and a key playmaker who is one of a kind in the league.

who do you think blocks for Spiller? the qb?

[Mahdi]

There are arguments for both sides.

My bottom line is that we have too many critical needs to pay a G (even a good one) 7-8 mil.

On top of that, we have just drafted a very good OT in Glenn who could be a top OG if we were to land another OT, we have Wood who we have to consider who is on the last year of his contact, we signed Urbik long-term and we have signed Pears long term. That is a lot of money already invested in the OL.

Meanwhile, we don't have a #2 or #3 CB (although one of those can be filled by Williams or Brooks), we don't have a solid DE opposite Mario, Anderson hasn't shown up yet due to injury and wasn't playing well when healthy.

We desperately need a #2 WR and we badly need 2 LBs. And as I mentioned before I think we need to add a big DT that can help us against the run. Both the Jets and Ravens have been known to have huge DTs and although Pettine is running something different here I'm sure he will want to stop the run first and foremost.

Its just simple math really. The OL is in good shape, while we have major holes elsewhere.

[Mahdi]

who do you think blocks for Spiller? the qb?

There are 9 other guys who block for Spiller not just Levitre. And whoever replaced Levitre will also block for Spiller.

[better days]

There is a big difference between a G and a key playmaker who is one of a kind in the league.

Well, Levitre is NOT going to be paid as a key playmaker who is one of a kind in the league. He will be paid top tier Guard money as he deserves.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

There are arguments for both sides.

My bottom line is that we have too many critical needs to pay a G (even a good one) 7-8 mil.

On top of that, we have just drafted a very good OT in Glenn who could be a top OG if we were to land another OT, we have Wood who we have to consider who is on the last year of his contact, we signed Urbik long-term and we have signed Pears long term. That is a lot of money already invested in the OL.

You should have a lot of money invested in the OL, it's arguably the 2nd most important unit on the team after your QBs. And even so, the Bills had the cheapest OL in the NFL last year (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323874204578217830553459320.html#project%3DNFLPAY0102%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive), so we have a lot of room to grow there.

The extensions of Urbik and Pears were dirt cheap. They each make less than Brad gd Smith and only a little more than Kelsay combined. Glenn is on his capped rookie deal which is extremely affordable. And Eric Wood. I don't understand why someone would let Levitre walk for the sake of Eric Wood. Now I like Wood, but Levitre is better at guard than Wood is at center and he's never missed a game. If I had to choose between signing wood and levitre I would pick Levitre 10 times out of 10.


Meanwhile, we don't have a #2 or #3 CB (although one of those can be filled by Williams or Brooks), we don't have a solid DE opposite Mario, Anderson hasn't shown up yet due to injury and wasn't playing well when healthy.

Anderson is a pass rush specialist and shouldn't be in on rush downs. But at DE we still have Kelsay and potentially Moore. I don't want Kelsay either but if we're paying him that money then they shouldn't be chasing MORE 4-3 ends. When we're in 3-4 looks, Dareus and Carrington would be the ends or Dareus and Williams with the latter trying to play the JJ Watt role. In any event, if you wanna talk about having enough money invested in one unit, look no further than our bazillion dollar d-line.


Its just simple math really. The OL is in good shape, while we have major holes elsewhere.

To OL is in good shape with Levitre. I think you are dead wrong that it would still be so without him.

[better days]

There are arguments for both sides.

My bottom line is that we have too many critical needs to pay a G (even a good one) 7-8 mil.

On top of that, we have just drafted a very good OT in Glenn who could be a top OG if we were to land another OT, we have Wood who we have to consider who is on the last year of his contact, we signed Urbik long-term and we have signed Pears long term. That is a lot of money already invested in the OL.

Meanwhile, we don't have a #2 or #3 CB (although one of those can be filled by Williams or Brooks), we don't have a solid DE opposite Mario, Anderson hasn't shown up yet due to injury and wasn't playing well when healthy.

We desperately need a #2 WR and we badly need 2 LBs. And as I mentioned before I think we need to add a big DT that can help us against the run. Both the Jets and Ravens have been known to have huge DTs and although Pettine is running something different here I'm sure he will want to stop the run first and foremost.

Its just simple math really. The OL is in good shape, while we have major holes elsewhere.

You keep talking as if the Bills are up tight against the cap which is just not the case. Do the MATH.

[justasportsfan]

There are 9 other guys who block for Spiller not just Levitre. And whoever replaced Levitre will also block for Spiller.

and you want an unknown instead of a proven to block for Spiller and the qb? Getting rid of our proven players even though we can afford them and wanting to keep guys like Whitner is a recipe for disaster.

[Mr. Pink]

Levitre will get Nicks money from someone in FA. Point blank period.

To keep Levitre, even at a discount, is gonna cost 7m per.

Byrd is gonna cost at least that as well.

There's 14m of the cap gone on 2 guys, another 6 on the draft picks just to make it an even 20m.

How much more money do you think there is for us to spend to improve at QB, WR, TE, LB, CB, Tackle?

It's simple economics, paying 7m for a guard, at the minimum, is stupid when you have a plethora of holes all over the place at more important positions.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Levitre will get Nicks money from someone in FA. Point blank period.

To keep Levitre, even at a discount, is gonna cost 7m per.

Byrd is gonna cost at least that as well.

There's 14m of the cap gone on 2 guys, another 6 on the draft picks just to make it an even 20m.

How much more money do you think there is for us to spend to improve at QB, WR, TE, LB, CB, Tackle?

It's simple economics, paying 7m for a guard, at the minimum, is stupid when you have a plethora of holes all over the place at more important positions.

So stop spending money on bums who aren't producing. Start by cutting dead weight like Kelsay, Fitz and Smith, and finding cheaper, young replacements for guys like Lindell.

What do people hope when you draft a guy in the second round? You hope he'll become a cornerstone of the team and play like it. Levitre did. Now suddenly it's a problem?

[Mr. Pink]

Fitz's cap savings if cut is not even 1m. It's not that paying for Levitre is bad in and of itself it's that paying for him basically makes the Bills unable to sign anyone if Byrd is signed/tagged. Byrd is the wiser investment of the two. I'm not joking by the way.

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130213/SPORTS/130219671/1004

"The Bills’ release Monday of George Wilson and Nick Barnett left them $20.9 million under the projected salary cap for this season, according to News figures.

However, a lot of that space is going to be eaten up by other expenses before they start pursuing players from other teams.

The Bills need about $5.5 million in cap space for their 2013 draft choices. They need $6.8 million for a franchise tag to retain the rights to safety Jairus Byrd. A tender offer for restricted free agent David Nelson is $1.3 million.

Those costs total $13.6 million."

That leaves 7.3 million for Levitre and ummm everyone else. I believe cutting the 3 guys you mentioned would free up about 4m in total. So we'll just round up to make a total nice and even. 12 million dollars for Levitre, other resigns besides Byrd and Nelson and then free agents.

Spending at least 7 on Levitre would be crazy stupid. Oh yeah, you then have to sign replacements for the 3 guys you want to cut too.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Fitz's cap savings if cut is not even 1m. It's not that paying for Levitre is bad in and of itself it's that paying for him basically makes the Bills unable to sign anyone if Byrd is signed/tagged. Byrd is the wiser investment of the two. I'm not joking by the way.

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130213/SPORTS/130219671/1004

"The Bills’ release Monday of George Wilson and Nick Barnett left them $20.9 million under the projected salary cap for this season, according to News figures.

However, a lot of that space is going to be eaten up by other expenses before they start pursuing players from other teams.

The Bills need about $5.5 million in cap space for their 2013 draft choices. They need $6.8 million for a franchise tag to retain the rights to safety Jairus Byrd. A tender offer for restricted free agent David Nelson is $1.3 million.

Those costs total $13.6 million."

That leaves 7.3 million for Levitre and ummm everyone else. I believe cutting the 3 guys you mentioned would free up about 4m in total. So we'll just round up to make a total nice and even. 12 million dollars for Levitre, other resigns besides Byrd and Nelson and then free agents.

Spending at least 7 on Levitre would be crazy stupid. Oh yeah, you then have to sign replacements for the 3 guys you want to cut too.

That's not how the salary cap works. Smart teams don't give a player the exact same salary in every season so it spreads out their cap hits, which is Salary + Amortized bonuses. Look at Nicks' deal.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/carl-nicks/


<tbody>

Base Salary
S. Bonus
Misc. Bonus
Cap Hit


2012
6,500,000
2,357,000
6,000,000
14,857,000


2013
715,000
2,357,000
-
3,072,000


2014
7,000,000
2,357,000
-
9,357,000


2015
7,750,000
2,357,000
-
10,107,000


2016
7,750,000
2,357,000
-
10,107,000


2017
UFA




$31 million guaranteed
2012 Roster Bonus: $6 million
2012 IR Week 8
2012 Restructure Bonus: $11.785 million



</tbody>

You see how they've rigged his salary to sink like a stone this year? They chose to push a large chunk of his cap penalty into 2012 so that they'd have room to play in 2013. Didn't you notice how Tampa signed two of the biggest FA's last year (Nicks and Jackson - http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/vincent-jackson/) and yet still wound up with among the most cap room this year? Because they rigged it that way.

The Bills can and should do the same thing - if we're assuming Levitre would only sign for a Nicks contract, sign him to that deal and flip years 1 and 2. Levitre shouldn't give a damn, he'll be getting 8 figures the day he signs the deal so the first year salary won't be an issue.

Then you dump Fitz, Smith, Kelsay, and Lindell. You take their dead money this year, but in 2014 they come off the books and you've shed 13 million off that year's cap. More than enough to accomodate the bump in Levitre's cap # and whatever additional you want to throw at Byrd (assuming he is tagged).

Fitz replacement is Jackson (already signed), Smith's replacement on kickoffs is Rogers, Sign Moore to replace Kelsay and find a UDFA kicker. Backfill their backup positions with vet minimum deals or promising UDFAs.

You rebuild by dumping bad contracts. Like paying for 4.25 million for Fitz to be a backup and scapegoat or 3 million to Brad Smith to return kickoffs and run gimmick plays for 2 yards. You don't rebuild by letting your 26 year old developed talent walk.

[YardRat]

The Bills have enough money to sign EVERYONE they want to.

NOBODY, including you and I, knows accurately how much money they have and how much they need to spend to keep everyone they want. If you have some inside info as to what kind of contracts Byrd, levitre, McKelvin, et al are looking for, and definitive knowledge on who the team wants to keep and who they want to replace, please feel free to share.

Sorry, but if you're going by some other reports that claim the Bills are between 25 and 30 mil under at this moment, I'm betting you're going to be extremely disappointed when/if that turns out to not be the case.

[YardRat]

Wait, you let Levitre walk but want to keep a backup in Rinehart? I would like to keep Nelson as well, but he is clearly expendable as is everyone on that list with the exception of Byrd. People wanted McKelvin gone years ago and now that he is a good return man we have to keep him?

You don't let a good player walk, especially one of your best, for money if he is interested in staying.

Check out the depth chart from the link I provided, cher. Add in top contracts for Levitre and Byrd, and rookie money, and roll into FA and the draft with that list. Kinda scary, if you ask me.

[better days]

Levitre will get Nicks money from someone in FA. Point blank period.

To keep Levitre, even at a discount, is gonna cost 7m per.

Byrd is gonna cost at least that as well.

There's 14m of the cap gone on 2 guys, another 6 on the draft picks just to make it an even 20m.

How much more money do you think there is for us to spend to improve at QB, WR, TE, LB, CB, Tackle?

It's simple economics, paying 7m for a guard, at the minimum, is stupid when you have a plethora of holes all over the place at more important positions.

The Bills are going to draft a QB, unless you think they can get Flacco. So his cost is included in the rookie number. Tackle? Offensive or Defensive? In either case the Bills have that covered. IMO Levitre is more important than any WR, TE, LB or CB they could get in free agency.

[better days]

Check out the depth chart from the link I provided, cher. Add in top contracts for Levitre and Byrd, and rookie money, and roll into FA and the draft with that list. Kinda scary, if you ask me.

You know what is scary? being a Cowboys fan now knowing you are going to lose good players. There is no reason for the Bills to do so. There is plenty of more dead wood that can be cut if the Bills need more money, which they shouldn't.

[YardRat]

That's not how the salary cap works. Smart teams don't give a player the exact same salary in every season so it spreads out their cap hits, which is Salary + Amortized bonuses. Look at Nicks' deal.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/carl-nicks/


<tbody>

Base Salary
S. Bonus
Misc. Bonus
Cap Hit


2012
6,500,000
2,357,000
6,000,000
14,857,000


2013
715,000
2,357,000
-
3,072,000


2014
7,000,000
2,357,000
-
9,357,000


2015
7,750,000
2,357,000
-
10,107,000


2016
7,750,000
2,357,000
-
10,107,000


2017
UFA




$31 million guaranteed
2012 Roster Bonus: $6 million
2012 IR Week 8
2012 Restructure Bonus: $11.785 million



</tbody>

You see how they've rigged his salary to sink like a stone this year? They chose to push a large chunk of his cap penalty into 2012 so that they'd have room to play in 2013. Didn't you notice how Tampa signed two of the biggest FA's last year (Nicks and Jackson - http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/vincent-jackson/) and yet still wound up with among the most cap room this year? Because they rigged it that way.

The Bills can and should do the same thing - if we're assuming Levitre would only sign for a Nicks contract, sign him to that deal and flip years 1 and 2. Levitre shouldn't give a damn, he'll be getting 8 figures the day he signs the deal so the first year salary won't be an issue.

Then you dump Fitz, Smith, Kelsay, and Lindell. You take their dead money this year, but in 2014 they come off the books and you've shed 13 million off that year's cap. More than enough to accomodate the bump in Levitre's cap # and whatever additional you want to throw at Byrd (assuming he is tagged).

Fitz replacement is Jackson (already signed), Smith's replacement on kickoffs is Rogers, Sign Moore to replace Kelsay and find a UDFA kicker. Backfill their backup positions with vet minimum deals or promising UDFAs.

You rebuild by dumping bad contracts. Like paying for 4.25 million for Fitz to be a backup and scapegoat or 3 million to Brad Smith to return kickoffs and run gimmick plays for 2 yards. You don't rebuild by letting your 26 year old developed talent walk.

The issue with your argument is Levitre isn't going to sign any deal that 'sinks like a stone' right from day one, so the numbers FTY is using is probably closer to what the actual deal will represent, and the 2013 ramifications on the cap.

You complain about guys like Wrotto and Howard in one post, than support going out and signing a bunch just like them to replace the holes in the depth chart that were created by going big bank on Levitre? Doesn't make sense.

[YardRat]

You know what is scary? being a Cowboys fan now knowing you are going to lose good players. There is no reason for the Bills to do so. There is plenty of more dead wood that can be cut if the Bills need more money, which they shouldn't.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/2/19/4004160/buffalo-bills-depth-chart-2013-pre-combine-edition

Plug in Byrd and Levitre on the depth chart at franchise numbers, then look at the holes that need to be filled.

[better days]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/2/19/4004160/buffalo-bills-depth-chart-2013-pre-combine-edition

Plug in Byrd and Levitre on the depth chart at franchise numbers, then look at the holes that need to be filled.

I heard Pat Kirwin talk about the cap on Sirius the other day. He said the cap is not static, it is fluid. You can adjust contracts & move things around (cut dead wood) to take care of players you WANT to take care of.

[YardRat]

I heard Pat Kirwin talk about the cap on Sirius the other day. He said the cap is not static, it is fluid. You can adjust contracts & move things around (cut dead wood) to take care of players you WANT to take care of.

Of course you can, within the rules. But at what cost?

[better days]

Of course you can, within the rules. But at what cost?

Whatever the cost, it beats losing a building block of a team like Levitre. And the cap keeps going up. The new figure for this year is $122 Mill I heard this afternoon on Sirius. It is higher than first reported & Kirwin said that would be a big help to teams like the 49ers & Cowboys.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The issue with your argument is Levitre isn't going to sign any deal that 'sinks like a stone' right from day one, so the numbers FTY is using is probably closer to what the actual deal will represent, and the 2013 ramifications on the cap.

Why wouldn't he?

"Here's the deal Andy, in year one you only make $500 in salary. However, here's a check for $15 million to tide you over until your salary spikes to $11 million in year two before settling at 7.5."

Easy peezy. The signing bonus cap hit amortizes over the length of the contract, but the salary is whatever it is. So if you give him a $15 million dollar signing bonus over a five year deal but a $500k salary in that year, his cap hit for year one would be $3.5 million. 15/5 = $3 million of his signing bonus plus his salary. In reality it would be slightly more than than due to other various bonuses and "likely to earn" incentives, but I picked round numbers to demonstrate it.

Point being, Levitre is in no way a crippling contract. Especially since he has a very high chance of earning his money.


You complain about guys like Wrotto and Howard in one post, than support going out and signing a bunch just like them to replace the holes in the depth chart that were created by going big bank on Levitre? Doesn't make sense.

Huh? I complained about trying to plug in guys like Wrotto as starters. Fitz, Smith, and Kelsay are grossly overpaid backups. It's much easier to find backups on the cheap than starters, and certainly easier than starters of Levitre's caliber.