Vanek right back to his old self

[OpIv37]

I didn't watch the whole game against the Leafs, but he missed on at least 3 chances in the first period.

He missed several chances against the Islanders and went back to his old habit of taking offensive zone penalties.

As I said before, this team cannot win when the best player makes these kinds of mistakes.

In fact, the whole line has gone to sleep. Hogson is following in Vanek's footsteps in terms of missing opportunities. Pominville is gun-shy and passes rather than shoots, which is not surprising because I can't remember the last time he put a snapshot on net, let alone scored on one.

And yes, I know what some of you will say: there are plenty of others on the team more worthy of criticism, players on other teams miss opportunities and take bad penalties as well, etc, but other people making mistakes does NOT get Vanek off the hook. The point is, and always has been, that this team won't win unless Vanek is perfect. At the start of the season when Vanek was racking up points, the team was at least winning some games and in most of the losses. Since he's gotten into one of his trademark slumps, the team has become a complete pushover.

Vanek isn't consistent enough to do it himself and no one on the team is capable of stepping up.

[YardRat]

You've been dying to post this thread for a week or so, haven't you.

[OpIv37]

I took a lot of **** for my stance on Vanek before.

Well look what happened....

Same **** happens all the time on this board- I say something that's correct but unpleasant. I take a lot of **** because no one wants to hear it. It turns out to be right.

All I want is for people to respond to what I say based on the merits instead of just getting pissed because its nnot what they want to hear.

[OpIv37]

But anyway, enough about me- back on topic.

What the hell happened to the "big line?" Is it time to demote Hogson or Pominville and see what Grigs can do with more talent?

[Skooby]

He still is at or near #1 for total points, so this is pre-mature.

[OpIv37]

He still is at or near #1 for total points, so this is pre-mature.

Two points in his last 7 games. Only one was even strength. Both points came in the Pitt game, which means he's gone scoreless in 6 of the last 7 games, and 7 of the last 10.

In the first 8 games, he tore it up and had 19 points, with at least 1 point in each game. In the last 10, he's had a mere six points and has been held scoreless 7 times.

What was premature was the credit I was giving Vanek. He's is same old streaky self. Flashes of brilliance interrupted by bouts of mediocrity.

[Skooby]

Two points in his last 7 games. Only one was even strength. Both points came in the Pitt game, which means he's gone scoreless in 6 of the last 7 games, and 7 of the last 10.

In the first 8 games, he tore it up and had 19 points, with at least 1 point in each game. In the last 10, he's had a mere six points and has been held scoreless 7 times.

What was premature was the credit I was giving Vanek. He's is same old streaky self. Flashes of brilliance interrupted by bouts of mediocrity.

I guess we can't blame the team play for Vanek then, no way he could be dejected / out of sorts with a new coach and all.

[OpIv37]

I guess we can't blame the team play for Vanek then, no way he could be dejected / out of sorts with a new coach and all.

Once again, players are responsible for their own performance. The lack of performance by the rest of the team does doesn't get Vanek off the hook.

As far as the new coach, these guys are supposed to be professionals and be able to handle that stuff. But, even if you accept that as a legit excuse and throw out games after Ruff was fired, only the last 2 were under the new coach, which still means 8 great games followed by 8 that were average at best.

[OpIv37]

And to be perfectly honest, I've only missed 1 2/3 games this year so I was aware that Vanek is in a slump but I didn't even realize how bad it was until I looked at the stats today.

[Captain Obvious]

You've been dying to post this thread for a week or so, haven't you.

It's a annual thread or whenever Vanek goes 3 straight games without getting a point. Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin have never in there careers gone 3 staright games without getting at least one point.

[OpIv37]

It's a annual thread or whenever Vanek goes 3 straight games without getting a point. Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin have never in there careers gone 3 staright games without getting at least one point.

Have Crosby and Malkin ever had TWO 3-game pointless streaks in a 7 game span? I highly doubt it.

[OpIv37]

It's a annual thread or whenever Vanek goes 3 straight games without getting a point. Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin have never in there careers gone 3 staright games without getting at least one point.

And your passive-aggressive unwillingness to engage me directly is getting old. You either wait until someone else engaged me and quote them with an indirect shot at me, or you quote me once then run and hide. If you object to something I say, argue it out like a real man and quit the chicken **** nonsense.

[Skooby]

And your passive-aggressive unwillingness to engage me directly is getting old. You either wait until someone else engaged me and quote them with an indirect shot at me, or you quote me once then run and hide. If you object to something I say, argue it out like a real man and quit the chicken **** nonsense.

If a season's final tally was determined by a small sample, then the Sabres could be Stanley Cup Champions or close based on that. You have to take the entire season & average it out to see how they player / team did, then go into the breakdown. Right now, Vanek is near the top of the league. It's hard to argue with the current sample & if he scores 5 points in his next game, you'll look like a putz.

1 Steven Stamkos, C TB 17 12 14 26 2 12 1.53 59 20.3 0 4 5 0 0
2 Thomas Vanek, LW BUF 18 12 13 25 1 14 1.39 69 17.4 0 5 3 1 0
Sidney Crosby, C PIT 18 7 18 25 8 8 1.39 68 10.3 0 2 8 0 0
4 John Tavares, C NYI 18 12 11 23 -4 12 1.28 72 16.7 1 5 6 0 0
Patrick Kane, RW CHI 17 9 14 23 9 2 1.35 46 19.6 1 3 4 0 0
Martin St. Louis, RW TB 17 4 19 23 2 2 1.35 44 9.1 1 2 7 0 0
7 Jakub Voracek, RW PHI 20 7 15 22 -4 6 1.10 52 13.5 2 3 5 0 0
Henrik Zetterberg, C DET 18 5 17 22 1 10 1.22 61 8.2 1 2 6 1 0
9 Matt Moulson, LW NYI 18 9 12 21 -5 4 1.17 70 12.9 0 6 4 0 0
Mike Ribeiro, C WSH 17 6 15 21 0 14 1.24 23 26.1 0 5 7 0 0

[OpIv37]

If a season's final tally was determined by a small sample, then the Sabres could be Stanley Cup Champions or close based on that. You have to take the entire season & average it out to see how they player / team did, then go into the breakdown. Right now, Vanek is near the top of the league. It's hard to argue with the current sample & if he scores 5 points in his next game, you'll look like a putz.

1 Steven Stamkos, C TB 17 12 14 26 2 12 1.53 59 20.3 0 4 5 0 0
2 Thomas Vanek, LW BUF 18 12 13 25 1 14 1.39 69 17.4 0 5 3 1 0
Sidney Crosby, C PIT 18 7 18 25 8 8 1.39 68 10.3 0 2 8 0 0
4 John Tavares, C NYI 18 12 11 23 -4 12 1.28 72 16.7 1 5 6 0 0
Patrick Kane, RW CHI 17 9 14 23 9 2 1.35 46 19.6 1 3 4 0 0
Martin St. Louis, RW TB 17 4 19 23 2 2 1.35 44 9.1 1 2 7 0 0
7 Jakub Voracek, RW PHI 20 7 15 22 -4 6 1.10 52 13.5 2 3 5 0 0
Henrik Zetterberg, C DET 18 5 17 22 1 10 1.22 61 8.2 1 2 6 1 0
9 Matt Moulson, LW NYI 18 9 12 21 -5 4 1.17 70 12.9 0 6 4 0 0
Mike Ribeiro, C WSH 17 6 15 21 0 14 1.24 23 26.1 0 5 7 0 0
Lmao. You lecture me on sample size then you use a sample size that's maybe 35% of a shortened season and less than a quarter of a full season.

[Skooby]

Lmao. You lecture me on sample size then you use a sample size that's maybe 35% of a shortened season and less than a quarter of a full season.

Point was to not judge one athlete's accomplishment on a small sample while near leading the league in points, maybe it wasn't clear to you based on one man's efforts thus far.

[OpIv37]

Point was to not judge one athlete's accomplishment on a small sample while near leading the league in points, maybe it wasn't clear to you based on one man's efforts thus far.

8 good games, 10 games that ranged from average to bad. That's the effort so far. It's not just good, it's good enough.
16291

[Skooby]

8 good games, 10 games that ranged from average to bad. That's the effort so far. It's not just good, it's good enough.


Its amazing that you'll pick apart our best player & fail to point out any other person that has under played this season, it's pretty freakish hard to point a finger at Vanek to find faults this season. You're trying to hammer home a point that's literally silly, you're dead wrong in finding huge fault in Vanek's play. Get over yourself, he's a current league best point maker so far this season, find a better target because there's a near few dozen others on our team. Total dip**** argument of compete blind hate for one successful person, it's pathetic.

[SkateZilla]

Vanek is no longer the pts leader either.

[Skooby]

Vanek is no longer the pts leader either.

Yeah, one point off means he's done nothing this season.

[OpIv37]

Its amazing that you'll pick apart our best player & fail to point out any other person that has under played this season, it's pretty freakish hard to point a finger at Vanek to find faults this season. You're trying to hammer home a point that's literally silly, you're dead wrong in finding huge fault in Vanek's play. Get over yourself, he's a current league best point maker so far this season, find a better target because there's a near few dozen others on our team. Total dip**** argument of compete blind hate for one successful person, it's pathetic.
Lmao.

I'm trying to hammer home the point that our best player isn't that good.

He's barely shown up over the last 7 games- a span in which the team has only won once- and you don't think it's fair that he shoulders some of the blame? Gimme a ****ing break. Stop watching league stats and start watching Sabres games.

[chernobylwraiths]

Well, they weren't very good when he was playing good too. But I think the Sabres are 2 and 0 when he scores 5 points in a game, so he should do that more.

[OpIv37]

Well, they weren't very good when he was playing good too. But I think the Sabres are 2 and 0 when he scores 5 points in a game, so he should do that more.
The 5 point games are testament to his streakiness.

It means that twice this season, he had more points in 1 game than he has had in the last 8 games combined.

5 points in one game is nice but 5 points spread over 3 or 4 games is more likely to lead to wins.

[SkateZilla]

Stop watching league stats and start watching Sabres games.

I cannot bring myself to that kind of torture anymore, they've been demoted to SWAP Channel, that I'll watch when the other game I'm watching goes to commercial break.


as for the rest of your post,

I dont see any team effort, I see miller playing himself to a burn out. The rest of the team is just scrimmaging and collecting a paycheck.

Change the CBA so Players only get a Check after a Win.... betcha **** turns around QUICK.

[OpIv37]

There definitely is a lack of effort all around, with maybe one or two exceptions.

But again, everyone else being lazy doesn't excuse Vanek.

[Mski]

There definitely is a lack of effort all around, with maybe one or two exceptions.

But again, everyone else being lazy doesn't excuse Vanek.last i checked this was a TEAM game, and there are usually 4 others skaters on the ice with him at any given time, and it takes more than just one players effort to get scoring opportunities.... so yes everyone else being lazy does directly impact Vaneks ability to produce

[OpIv37]

last i checked this was a TEAM game, and there are usually 4 others skaters on the ice with him at any given time, and it takes more than just one players effort to get scoring opportunities.... so yes everyone else being lazy does directly impact Vaneks ability to produce

Vanek's had chances that he hasn't converted. That's on him. Vanek takes offensive zone penalties, that's on him.

And the rest of the team wasn't any less lazy when Vanek was getting points.

[chernobylwraiths]

The 5 point games are testament to his streakiness.

It means that twice this season, he had more points in 1 game than he has had in the last 8 games combined.

5 points in one game is nice but 5 points spread over 3 or 4 games is more likely to lead to wins.

If he doesn't get 5 points in those two games, they are losses in all likelihood.

[rbochan]

This thread is hilarious. And sad.

Vanek pulled his groin 2 weeks ago and has been playing hurt. He gets so beat up during the season. If they ever appreciated the talent the guy has and gave him some complimentary talent maybe he'd be more durable since teams couldn't focus so much on him.

[OpIv37]

This thread is hilarious. And sad.

Vanek pulled his groin 2 weeks ago and has been playing hurt. He gets so beat up during the season. If they ever appreciated the talent the guy has and gave him some complimentary talent maybe he'd be more durable since teams couldn't focus so much on him.
Oh god, this again?

Every time Vanek goes into a slump, it's the result of an injury. It can't POSSIBLY be his fault, right?

[gebobs]

Everyone knows Vanek is streaky. That doesn't mean he's "not that good". All it does is underline just how much the team depends on him and how little the team can depend on the other skaters. Yes, he's not Evgeni Malkin or Syd Crosby. He's pretty good though. Just not a franchise type player.

[Skooby]

2 points for Vanek tonight & we won, oh man it's heresy.

[gebobs]

Those were cheap points but hopefully it will get a point streak going.

[PTI]

Those were cheap points but hopefully it will get a point streak going.

All players get cheap points, just that those who ahve the puck more often get more cheap points.

[OpIv37]

2 points for Vanek tonight & we won, oh man it's heresy.

What happened to all that "premature, small sample size" stuff you said earlier in the thread?

I'm glad Vanek got back on the score sheet but he still only has 4 points (1 goal) in his last 8 games and has failed to register a point in 6 of the last 8.

[gebobs]

All players get cheap points, just that those who ahve the puck more often get more cheap points.
Those were REALLY cheap points. In a season where 5 of the 7 wins have been ugly, last night was exceptional in that regard. Stupid penalties, cheap goals, defensive breakdowns, huge rebounds, chunks of game without a shot, etc. If not for Miller standing on his head and his three best friends, the goalposts and the crossbar, making themselves big when he wasn't, they might have lost that game by a baker's dozen.

[OpIv37]

It was an ugly game- that's for damn sure. After they scored their first goal, they failed to establish the zone for over 4 mins, and when they finally did, they didnt get a shot on goal. I was thinking that they may be the worst team in the NHL.

And the officiating was one sided in the sense that they missed calls on TB, but every Sabres penalty was deserved and every one was stupid.

[Skooby]

It was an ugly game- that's for damn sure. After they scored their first goal, they failed to establish the zone for over 4 mins, and when they finally did, they didnt get a shot on goal. I was thinking that they may be the worst team in the NHL.

And the officiating was one sided in the sense that they missed calls on TB, but every Sabres penalty was deserved and every one was stupid.

Tyler Myers looked comfortable in the penalty box, too comfortable.

[Skooby]

What happened to all that "premature, small sample size" stuff you said earlier in the thread?

I'm glad Vanek got back on the score sheet but he still only has 4 points (1 goal) in his last 8 games and has failed to register a point in 6 of the last 8.

Still near the top of the league in scoring, he'd probably make the first line of every team in the league. Keep hating the guy that helps us get our only wins, it makes so much sense.

[gebobs]

I was thinking that they may be the worst team in the NHL.
Could be. The Jackets look pretty crappy too. And who in the world is going to want to watch the Sabres' next game other than a few diehard masochists from Barfalo?

[OpIv37]

Still near the top of the league in scoring, he'd probably make the first line of every team in the league. Keep hating the guy that helps us get our only wins, it makes so much sense.

He hurts as much as he helps- missing wide open nets and/or breakaways, offensive zone penalties, long cold steaks, etc. And that's one of the reasons why this team doesn't win often: the best player makes far too many mistakes.

[Skooby]

He hurts as much as he helps- missing wide open nets and/or breakaways, offensive zone penalties, long cold steaks, etc. And that's one of the reasons why this team doesn't win often: the best player makes far too many mistakes.

He makes far too many plays compared to everyone else as well, that's the part you're failing to realize.

[OpIv37]

He makes far too many plays compared to everyone else as well, that's the part you're failing to realize.

Never said he didn't make plays.

The problem is that he at least partially offsets his good plays with mistakes far too often for a guy taking up $6.5 million in cap space.

[gebobs]

Never said he didn't make plays.

The problem is that he at least partially offsets his good plays with mistakes far too often for a guy taking up $6.5 million in cap space.
Your criticism is misplaced. If Regier overpaid, that's not Vanek's fault. And though it might have been a huge payday at the time, the league has caught up. He's now the 8th highest paid LW (http://www.sportscity.com/nhl-salaries-2012-13-top-20-salaries-for-left-wingers/2012/11/15/).

Whatever ails the Sabres, it is NOT Vanek. When you see the Sabres blindly throw the puck along the boards or miss a pass by 10 feet, it's not Vanek. His passes are tape-to-tape. The Sabres front line issues are with Stafford, Hecht, and Gerbe. Gerbe especially. He's lost. I'll give Foligno a pass...for now.

[Skooby]

Never said he didn't make plays.

The problem is that he at least partially offsets his good plays with mistakes far too often for a guy taking up $6.5 million in cap space.

You seem indifferent to the fact that he is one of the point leaders in the NHL, he's also + 3 in the plus minus ratings on a losing team.

1 Steven Stamkos TBL C 19 14 16 30 +2 12 5 0 0 0 69 20.3 21:54 24.1 47.3
2 Sidney Crosby PIT C 20 9 21 30 +9 8 2 0 0 0 76 11.8 21:38 23.0 56.7
3 Thomas Vanek BUF L 19 12 15 27 +3 14 5 1 0 0 71 16.9 19:25 23.2 71.4
4 John Tavares NYI C 20 13 12 25 -7 12 5 0 1 0 80 16.3 21:44 23.4 49.1
5 Henrik ZetterbergDET L 19 6 19 25 +3 10 3 1 2 0 62 9.7 20:50 24.4 52.4

[OpIv37]

I'm indifferent to the fact that he's a points leader because a) it doesn't lead to wins, b) it won't last as he is in one of his trademark slumps and c) getting points doesn't excuse mistakes like bad penalties.

[OpIv37]

Your criticism is misplaced. If Regier overpaid, that's not Vanek's fault. And though it might have been a huge payday at the time, the league has caught up. He's now the 8th highest paid LW (http://www.sportscity.com/nhl-salaries-2012-13-top-20-salaries-for-left-wingers/2012/11/15/).

Whatever ails the Sabres, it is NOT Vanek. When you see the Sabres blindly throw the puck along the boards or miss a pass by 10 feet, it's not Vanek. His passes are tape-to-tape. The Sabres front line issues are with Stafford, Hecht, and Gerbe. Gerbe especially. He's lost. I'll give Foligno a pass...for now.

Correction: whatever ails the Sabres is NOT JUST Vanek. Some of you fail to see his mistakes just because he racked up some points early in the season and because the rest of the team is even worse.

[Skooby]

I'm indifferent to the fact that he's a points leader because a) it doesn't lead to wins, b) it won't last as he is in one of his trademark slumps and c) getting points doesn't excuse mistakes like bad penalties.

His points lead to our win last night, those other 5 point games probably didn't hurt us either.

[gebobs]

Correction: whatever ails the Sabres is NOT JUST Vanek.
Glad to hear that. By the way you post, one would think think it was.


Some of you fail to see his mistakes just because he racked up some points early in the season and because the rest of the team is even worse.No one ever said he doesn't screw up from time to time. As an old boss of mine once said, "If you don't make any mistakes, you're not trying hard enough."

It seems to me that you're going after the high-hanging fruit in your criticism of Vanek. He's arguably the best passer on the team. No question he's the best goal scorer. Right now, he's the most valuable member of the team and every GM in the league would happily snap him up, salary and all.

[OpIv37]

I'd love to unload that contract, but without him this team goes from bad to epic disaster.

[Skooby]

Glad to hear that. By the way you post, one would think think it was.

No one ever said he doesn't screw up from time to time. As an old boss of mine once said, "If you don't make any mistakes, you're not trying hard enough."

It seems to me that you're going after the high-hanging fruit in your criticism of Vanek. He's arguably the best passer on the team. No question he's the best goal scorer. Right now, he's the most valuable member of the team and every GM in the league would happily snap him up, salary and all.

It's scary obvious, no idea how you can see it any other way.

[gebobs]

I'd love to unload that contract, but without him this team goes from bad to epic disaster.
It's over next year so someone will sign him and probably for more than what he gets now.

[OpIv37]

It's over next year so someone will sign him and probably for more than what he gets now.
Mistake.

He's not good enough to do it himself and giving him more than he makes now will limit the ability to put the right pieces around him, especially with the cap going down.

[rbochan]

Yet, Charminville has 1 point in his last TEN games...

[chernobylwraiths]

Mistake.

He's not good enough to do it himself and giving him more than he makes now will limit the ability to put the right pieces around him, especially with the cap going down.

Some teams seem able to pay multiple players that much money. You act like we can only pay one like that.

[gebobs]

Mistake.
It's not a mistake. It's what the market will bear. He's getting paid more than some guys at his position that he is at least comparable with or better.

[OpIv37]

Some teams seem able to pay multiple players that much money. You act like we can only pay one like that.

We only do pay one like that. And every off-season/trade deadline, we neve seem to have the cap room for the best guys (Brad Richards, anyone?). So, maybe the team is cheap or maybe the cap is poorly managed, but when you look at the books, Vanek's cap hit jumps off the page. If there's another reason why we aren't signing guys, I'm still waiting to hear it.

[OpIv37]

It's not a mistake. It's what the market will bear. He's getting paid more than some guys at his position that he is at least comparable with or better.

Just because its what the market will bear doesn't mean it's not a mistake. Haynesworth got what the market was bearing at the time. And how many people are in foreclosure because they bought townhouses for $500k and had a mortgage that was 80% of their paycheck?

[Skooby]

We only do pay one like that. And every off-season/trade deadline, we neve seem to have the cap room for the best guys (Brad Richards, anyone?). So, maybe the team is cheap or maybe the cap is poorly managed, but when you look at the books, Vanek's cap hit jumps off the page. If there's another reason why we aren't signing guys, I'm still waiting to hear it.

Ville Leino looks like the biggest pig by a landslide. Drew Stafford's 8 point performance while Pommer has about half of TV's points. I think a redirect in anger is needed here, best to find a better target.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=BUF


<tbody>
2012-13

2013-14

2014-15

2015-16

2016-17

2017-18

2018-19

2019-20



Thomas Vanek

LW

6,400,0007,142,857

6,400,0007,142,857

UFA








Jason Pominville

RW

5,500,0005,300,000

5,500,0005,300,000

UFA








Ville Leino

LW

6,000,0004,500,000

4,000,0004,500,000

4,000,0004,500,000

3,500,0004,500,000

3,500,0004,500,000

UFA





Drew Stafford

RW

4,000,0004,000,000

4,000,0004,000,000

4,000,0004,000,000

UFA


</tbody>

[OpIv37]

Plenty of blame to go around. I just don't get why some of you think Vanek is exempt.

[gebobs]

Plenty of blame to go around. I just don't get why some of you think Vanek is exempt.
I think this is your problem. No one thinks Vanek doesn't share some responsibility for the team's dismal performance. It's just that of anyone on the team, his share is by far the least. He carries the team on his shoulders night after night. If he has a really good game, they might win. If he doesn't, they probably lose because no one else on the team can be counted on to shoulder the load in his place.

[gebobs]

Just because its what the market will bear doesn't mean it's not a mistake. Haynesworth got what the market was bearing at the time. And how many people are in foreclosure because they bought townhouses for $500k and had a mortgage that was 80% of their paycheck?
Prior performance is no guarantee of future results. If only we all could have a crystal ball there would be no need for free markets. Until then, it's the harsh reality of supply and demand. When you have 30 multimillionaires vying for the service of one of the top five or so left wingers in the game, it's a seller's market for sure.

[Skooby]

Plenty of blame to go around. I just don't get why some of you think Vanek is exempt.

It's normally hard to shoot at the only guy that saves the day for the team but you seem to find him as the best target, which is mind-boggling.

[Skooby]

I think this is your problem. No one thinks Vanek doesn't share some responsibility for the team's dismal performance. It's just that of anyone on the team, his share is by far the least. He carries the team on his shoulders night after night. If he has a really good game, they might win. If he doesn't, they probably lose because no one else on the team can be counted on to shoulder the load in his place.

Could this be anymore obvious ?? Stafford is -7 in the +/- category & we're paying him ~$ 4 Million a year, talk about a total clip.

[OpIv37]

I think this is your problem. No one thinks Vanek doesn't share some responsibility for the team's dismal performance. It's just that of anyone on the team, his share is by far the least. He carries the team on his shoulders night after night. If he has a really good game, they might win. If he doesn't, they probably lose because no one else on the team can be counted on to shoulder the load in his place.

No, he doesn't carry the team on his shoulders night after night. 4 points in 8 games and no points in 6 of the last 8.

[OpIv37]

It's normally hard to shoot at the only guy that saves the day for the team but you seem to find him as the best target, which is mind-boggling.

So, the expectations for Vanek should be the same as, say, Stafford or Gerbe? Please.

[OpIv37]

Prior performance is no guarantee of future results. If only we all could have a crystal ball there would be no need for free markets. Until then, it's the harsh reality of supply and demand. When you have 30 multimillionaires vying for the service of one of the top five or so left wingers in the game, it's a seller's market for sure.

So on one hand you say prior performance is no guarantee of future results, but then you go on to justify spending millions of dollars on something with no guarantee of results.

I stand by my statement. Paying market price can still be a mistake.

[SkateZilla]

i think even vanek knows he's getting paid too much.

[Mski]

We only do pay one like that. And every off-season/trade deadline, we neve seem to have the cap room for the best guys (Brad Richards, anyone?). So, maybe the team is cheap or maybe the cap is poorly managed, but when you look at the books, Vanek's cap hit jumps off the page. If there's another reason why we aren't signing guys, I'm still waiting to hear it.
we had the cap room and the money to give him... he simply only wanted to go to new york

[OpIv37]

we had the cap room and the money to give him... he simply only wanted to go to new york

So then why wasn't the cap room used to sign someone else or extend somebody?

People keep saying we have the cap room but the team sure as hell isn't acting like it

[Mski]

So then why wasn't the cap room used to sign someone else or extend somebody?

People keep saying we have the cap room but the team sure as hell isn't acting like it
we did use the cap room on villie leino, erhof

[Skooby]

So, the expectations for Vanek should be the same as, say, Stafford or Gerbe? Please.

Stafford earns ~66% of what Vanek earns & had provided 1/3 his performance. Gerbe was never mentioned, at least by me. You're talking pay for performance & Vanek is at the top of the league for points performance, it's pretty hard to argue with the facts.

[Mski]

Stafford earns ~66% of what Vanek earns & had provided 1/3 his performance. Gerbe was never mentioned, at least by me. You're talking pay for performance & Vanek is at the top of the league for points performance, it's pretty hard to argue with the facts.
and making quite a bit less than most of the guys he's ahead of on that list too

[Skooby]

i think even vanek knows he's getting paid too much.

I think this endless Vanek bashing is weakest this season, he's the only real performer out there making things happen at his position. He's near the top for total points thus far as well, so he's playing up to his contract. Thinking any different is personal hate or jealousy, which is becoming more obvious everyday. When Vanek helped us beat Tampa, first posts mentioned about how he failed to perform during his previous games. He either helps us win or he doesn't & looking at the scoresheets, if he doesn't play we don't win.

I'd turn the spotlight away from league leading performing players to people like Stafford / Ville who are sucking up our resources with very little in return, those arguments I can see being justified.

[OpIv37]

we did use the cap room on villie leino, erhof

I don't recall on Ehrhoff but I believe Leino was already signed when we were pursuing Richards.

[OpIv37]

Stafford earns ~66% of what Vanek earns & had provided 1/3 his performance. Gerbe was never mentioned, at least by me. You're talking pay for performance & Vanek is at the top of the league for points performance, it's pretty hard to argue with the facts.

Vanek is at the top of the league because of a hot streak that included two 5 point games. He's come back to earth now and won't be there much longer. The facts show that Vanek has been a streaky player in the past and that is proving true once again.

As far as Stafford, yeah, he's a streaky contract year player. No doubt about that. But what Stafford doesn't do has no bearing on Vanek. Vanek is responsible for his own performance. "Well he did it too!" is not a valid excuse on e you graduate kindergarten.

[OpIv37]

I think this endless Vanek bashing is weakest this season, he's the only real performer out there making things happen at his position. He's near the top for total points thus far as well, so he's playing up to his contract. Thinking any different is personal hate or jealousy, which is becoming more obvious everyday. When Vanek helped us beat Tampa, first posts mentioned about how he failed to perform during his previous games. He either helps us win or he doesn't & looking at the scoresheets, if he doesn't play we don't win.

I'd turn the spotlight away from league leading performing players to people like Stafford / Ville who are sucking up our resources with very little in return, those arguments I can see being justified.
Personal hate? Jealousy? Please.

On one hand you complain about the team doing bad, and on the other hand, you defend one of the reasons why the team is doing bad. Comparing Vanek to the other heaps of **** on this team is useless. He needs to be compared to the other top players in the league, and long term he never cuts it.

[OpIv37]

It comes down to this: Vanek has some talent but he's not good enough to build a team around.

Unfortunately, this is the ****ty situation that our FO has created for us. Either Vanek plays like a top 3 player in the league every night, or the Sabres lose. So, I'm going to hold him to that standard. He has shown he can do it in bursts. He has not shown that he can do it consistently, and until he does, the criticism will come.

You can argue all day about whether that's fair or realistic, but it's irrelevant because its the reality under which we are forced to live.

[gebobs]

So on one hand you say prior performance is no guarantee of future results, but then you go on to justify spending millions of dollars on something with no guarantee of results.
Is there an alternative?


I stand by my statement. Paying market price can still be a mistake.
That's the gamble anyone takes any time they pay for anything. The greater the cost, the more the risk.

[gebobs]

No, he doesn't carry the team on his shoulders night after night. 4 points in 8 games and no points in 6 of the last 8.
Now you're just playing semantics. If you read the entire context of my post, you would see that I mention just what you said above. The fact that he falters under the onus of carrying the team's fortunes on his back every night does not mean that burden goes away.

In the Sabres 7 wins this year, he only failed to point in one game and had 2+ in five of them. If Vanek doesn't get on the scoresheet, the team loses almost invariably: 1-7.

[gebobs]

It comes down to this: Vanek has some talent but he's not good enough to build a team around.Sure he is. But how are you going to know until you try? :-)

It can't be up to Vanek to get wins every night. Some of these other schmucks need to step up.

[OpIv37]

Now you're just playing semantics. If you read the entire context of my post, you would see that I mention just what you said above. The fact that he falters under the onus of carrying the team's fortunes on his back every night does not mean that burden goes away.

In the Sabres 7 wins this year, he only failed to point in one game and had 2+ in five of them. If Vanek doesn't get on the scoresheet, the team loses almost invariably: 1-7.
Now we are getting somewhere.

This is exactly why I'm so hard on him. If he's not a top 3 player in the league every night, we lose. That expectation may be unfair, but in reality it's the only way the team wins.

- - - Updated - - -


Sure he is. But how are you going to know until you try? :-)

It can't be up to Vanek to get wins every night. Some of these other schmucks need to step up.

But we both know they won't.

[gebobs]

This is exactly why I'm so hard on him. If he's not a top 3 player in the league every night, we lose. That expectation may be unfair, but in reality it's the only way the team wins.
So let me get this straight. You go to a restaurant and order a hamburger and a nice Sonoma cabernet. Afterward, you complain to the maitre d' that the wine was not Chateau Margaux?

[OpIv37]

So let me get this straight. You go to a restaurant and order a hamburger and a nice Sonoma cabernet. Afterward, you complain to the maitre d' that the wine was not Chateau Margaux?

Not following you here.

There is nothing else to tell you. The FO ****ed up and built a team where Vanek has to be damn near perfect to win. Sometimes he is, often he's very average.

And there is no excuse for some of the stupid mistakes. I don't care if he scores 10 goals in a single game- there is no reason to EVER take an offensive zone penalty. You can't win with your best player doing dumbass ****.

[gebobs]

Not following you here.The point is that you are pointing at the best player on the team and blaming him for the team sucking when he has done more than any other player on the team this year. It boggles the mind.


The FO ****ed up and built a team where Vanek has to be damn near perfect to win.
Bad job by the Front Office and I have to agree. What I don't agree with is blaming Vanek and hoisting him on a petard when he isn't perfect. I understand that it's frustrating that we can't depend on anyone other than Vanek to make plays. He can't do it by himself. No player can.


there is no reason to EVER take an offensive zone penalty
Yes, he makes a few mistakes. Even the great Gretzky made them.

[Skooby]

Sure he is. But how are you going to know until you try? :-)

It can't be up to Vanek to get wins every night. Some of these other schmucks need to step up.

The standards set up for one player is too high, there's 4 other guys out there with him on his side. To me, an assist is as good as a goal because it got a goal.

[Skooby]

The point is that you are pointing at the best player on the team and blaming him for the team sucking when he has done more than any other player on the team this year. It boggles the mind.


OP has set Vanek's bar at legend status. It's Vanek's fault if the team doesn't perform, not the managements for building a better / deeper team. Do you get it??

- - - Updated - - -


The point is that you are pointing at the best player on the team and blaming him for the team sucking when he has done more than any other player on the team this year. It boggles the mind.


OP has set Vanek's bar at legend status. It's Vanek's fault if the team doesn't perform, not the managements for building a better / deeper team. Do you get it??

[SkateZilla]

Just Tied Ales Kotalik for Shootout Goals.

[OpIv37]

OP has set Vanek's bar at legend status. It's Vanek's fault if the team doesn't perform, not the managements for building a better / deeper team. Do you get it??

- - - Updated - - -



OP has set Vanek's bar at legend status. It's Vanek's fault if the team doesn't perform, not the managements for building a better / deeper team. Do you get it??

Yeah, because everyone knows I've been so kind and forgiving of management :rolleyes:

I've said multiple times in this thread that management ****ed us to create this situation. But what's done is done. If Vanek's not a legend, we lose. It's management's fault but it's the reality that we are living under.

And for the record, I've always liked Vanek on the shootout. He doesn't do anything fancy- it's just one move and then blast a wrist shot past the goalie. But it works more often than not.

[Crisis]

Why are we crucifying Vanek?

Stafford is a complete waste, how the hell does this loser wear a letter?

[OpIv37]

Why are we crucifying Vanek?

Stafford is a complete waste, how the hell does this loser wear a letter?

Once again, Stafford sucks.

But Stafford's, um, "lack of proficiency" doesn't excuse Vanek's mistakes.

He took another offensive zone penalty tonight.

[Crisis]

Once again, Stafford sucks.

But Stafford's, um, "lack of proficiency" doesn't excuse Vanek's mistakes.

He took another offensive zone penalty tonight.

And he's only behind Crosby/Stamkos in points right now and he averages 2 minutes less ice time per game. Vanek is FAR from a problem on this team.

[Crisis]

It just boggles my mind that this team has so many holes and the person you want to call out is the guy who is top 3 in scoring.

[OpIv37]

And he's only behind Crosby/Stamkos in points right now and he averages 2 minutes less ice time per game. Vanek is FAR from a problem on this team.

He's one of the problems with the team. A top 3 guy can't go scoreless in 6 of 8. A top 3 guy can't take offensive zone penalties in 3 out of 4 games. Teams whose "top guy" does that don't win.

[gebobs]

He's one of the problems with the team. A top 3 guy can't go scoreless in 6 of 8. A top 3 guy can't take offensive zone penalties in 3 out of 4 games. Teams whose "top guy" does that don't win.
I knew your head would be spinning after that penalty last night. It was a cheap call. The two of them barely touched as the puck went up the boards and the Huberdeau stumbled. But in the first period, same exact place, Scott gets hit from behind before he can get the puck and no call. The officiating sucked...again.

Still Vanek doesn't make the scoresheet but is clutch in the shootout in the win. Stop being so hypercritical.

By the way...that Huberdeau is a huge f@g. What a little wuss. Always crying to the refs and exaggerating his falls.

[SkateZilla]

So you're saying no other Top Offensive player takes alot of penalties? Bull.

Evgeni, Malkin, Eric Staal, Mike Ribero, have similar points numbers but a mess more Penalties called.

[gebobs]

So you're saying no other Top Offensive player takes alot of penalties? Bull.

Evgeni, Malkin, Eric Staal, Mike Ribero, have similar points numbers but a mess more Penalties called.
And Malkin is a -4. If Vanek sucks, what does that make Eugene?

[SkateZilla]

a liability

[chernobylwraiths]

gebobs, didn't Vanek assist on Ennis's goal?

[Skooby]

gebobs, didn't Vanek assist on Ennis's goal?

I thought the same thing but it didn't make the scoresheet.

[PTI]

I thought the same thing but it didn't make the scoresheet.

They should go back and add it, it was an assist by NHL assist standards.

[trapezeus]

if i was the sabres GM, i would be offering Vanek in a trade. It's not that i don't like Vanek, but getting him the center help to be consistently amazing will cost more than raping some team that is close and has some top prospects.

This sabres team as is, can not do anything to be a playoff contender past the first round. That is their highest aspiration. and by the time we get enough pieces to have 4 adequate lines, vanek won't be who he is right now.

the more new bodies you get in here the more the players see that the writing is on the wall. and maybe they'll have a more consistent effort. but keeping a bunch of these losers and adding one or two guys for a push hasn't worked, nor will it. the lazy culture is so deeply ingrained with these guys.

[OpIv37]

A lot of you are making the false assumption the I don't care about how anyone else is doing just because I'm willing to point out Vanek's flaws.

[OpIv37]

So you're saying no other Top Offensive player takes alot of penalties? Bull.

Evgeni, Malkin, Eric Staal, Mike Ribero, have similar points numbers but a mess more Penalties called.

Not all penalties are equally dumb. I know Vanek's have been dumb.

Oh, and once again...OTHER PEOPLE MAKING MISTAKES DOES NOT GIVE VANEK AN EXCUSE TO MAKE THEM TOO.

Enough with the kindergarten "well he did it too!" nonsense.

[SkateZilla]

Not all penalties are equally dumb. I know Vanek's have been dumb.

Oh, and once again...OTHER PEOPLE MAKING MISTAKES DOES NOT GIVE VANEK AN EXCUSE TO MAKE THEM TOO.

Enough with the kindergarten "well he did it too!" nonsense.

so your saying vanek isnt allowed to make mistakes but everyone else can?

[Skooby]

so your saying vanek isnt allowed to make mistakes but everyone else can?

Can you say hypercritical ?

[OpIv37]

No, I'm saying everyone who makes a mistake deserves to be called out on it. I don't give a **** if Malkin or Staal or Ribero make mistakes because I'm not a fan of their teams, but I sure as hell hope the people that are fans call them out when they duck up.

[SkateZilla]

in that case, you should be all over Myers, Stafford, and Pretty much anyone that dresses in Blue and Gold on a Nightly Basis.

[OpIv37]

So, you think I like a player's performance just because I didn't specifically start a thread to criticize it? Please.

[Skooby]

Can't complain today, he didn't play.

[SkateZilla]

pfft, he stunk up the press box, roflmao , j/k

[gebobs]

A lot of you are making the false assumption the I don't care about how anyone else is doing just because I'm willing to point out Vanek's flaws.
What's the point in putting a magnifying glass on the team's best player as if you should expect he shouldn't have any flaws? The team has problems, the least of which are with Vanek.

[Skooby]

What's the point in putting a magnifying glass on the team's best player as if you should expect he shouldn't have any flaws? The team has problems, the least of which are with Vanek.

It's personal, no other common sense explanation should be needed. This is like saying Colin Kap lost San Fran the Superbowl after they got there, being the best player on the team.

[OpIv37]

What's the point in putting a magnifying glass on the team's best player as if you should expect he shouldn't have any flaws? The team has problems, the least of which are with Vanek.

Keep thinking Vanek's problems aren't important. Just don't expect to win.

[OpIv37]

It's personal, no other common sense explanation should be needed. This is like saying Colin Kap lost San Fran the Superbowl after they got there, being the best player on the team.

Why would I have anything personal agains Vanek? I've never met him.

I want the team to win. They're only going to do that if Vanek plays up to his salary. When he makes stupid mistakes that no player should make- especially not a "top guy" with the biggest cap hit in the league- I criticize him. It's really that simple.

You guys claim you want the Sabres to win, then you get mad when I criticize a guy whose mistakes are keeping the team for winning. Huh?

I see this nonsense in the Bills forum all the time too. People have favorite players for one reason or another, and make ridiculous excuses to defend mistakes by those players.

[Mski]

Why would I have anything personal agains Vanek? I've never met him.

I want the team to win. They're only going to do that if Vanek plays up to his salary. When he makes stupid mistakes that no player should make- especially not a "top guy" with the biggest cap hit in the league- I criticize him. It's really that simple.

You guys claim you want the Sabres to win, then you get mad when I criticize a guy whose mistakes are keeping the team for winning. Huh?

I see this nonsense in the Bills forum all the time too. People have favorite players for one reason or another, and make ridiculous excuses to defend mistakes by those players.

for the love of god STOP with this blatantly WRONG idea... he is no where near the biggest cap hit in the league

[Mski]

do some research...
he's 14th

[OpIv37]

for the love of god STOP with this blatantly WRONG idea... he is no where near the biggest cap hit in the league

Typo- I meant to say team, not league.

[gebobs]

When he makes stupid mistakes that no player should make- especially not a "top guy" with the biggest cap hit in the league- I criticize him. It's really that simple.

Go ahead and show me the hypothetical "top guy" that never makes any mistakes.

[OpIv37]

Go ahead and show me the hypothetical "top guy" that never makes any mistakes.

I never said he can't make any mistakes. I said he can't make stupid mistakes, which he does. The guy has at least six offensive zone penalties. If he's back checking on a breakaway and hooks a guy- well it's a mistake but I can live with it on occasion. That many offensive zone penalties in the 19 or 20 games he's played this year? Inexcusable, especially from a top guy.

[OpIv37]

Oh and we are right back to the " well he did it too!" mentality.

[gebobs]

I never said he can't make any mistakes. I said he can't make stupid mistakes, which he does.
Go ahead and show me the guy that doesn't make stupid mistakes then. Or show me the guy that only makes smart mistakes.

[OpIv37]

Go ahead and show me the guy that doesn't make stupid mistakes then. Or show me the guy that only makes smart mistakes.

You're trying for a "gotcha" moment here because you know damn well I don't watch enough non-Sabres hockey to be able to answer that question.

But the reality is that it's irrelevant. You are clinging to the kindergarten "well he did it too!" mentality. The reality is that the Sabres aren't good enough to survive stupid mistakes like offensive zone penalties from their best player. Therefore, he can't make them and he should be criticized if he does.

And honestly, I don't know if this is even tracked anywhere, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another guy in Vanek's pay range who has that many offensive zone penalties. And that's just one type of stupid mistake. It doesn't even account for sloppy clears or blown breakaways or misses with half the net open.

[gebobs]

You're trying for a "gotcha" moment here because you know damn well I don't watch enough non-Sabres hockey to be able to answer that question.
Gotcha. :-)


But the reality is that it's irrelevant. You are clinging to the kindergarten "well he did it too!" mentality.
Not at all. I'm merely pointing out that you're being unrealistic. If your bar is that he has to be mistake free, then stop. No player will ever reach that.

[OpIv37]

Once again, I never said "mistake free." I said he can't make stupid mistakes. There's a huge difference.

[SkateZilla]

****, miller should have had both of them shootout goals...BS!~

[OpIv37]

****, miller should have had both of them shootout goals...BS!~

Red herring.

[Skooby]

Vanek has the best + / - on our team & is one on the league leaders in points, clearly an asset. Sometimes it's best to just call it quits when you're wrong, I know it's hard to do but get over it.

[OpIv37]

Vanek has the best + / - on our team & is one on the league leaders in points, clearly an asset. Sometimes it's best to just call it quits when you're wrong, I know it's hard to do but get over it.

Except that I'm not wrong. Not even close.

Having the best +/- on this team is like being the fastest sprinter in fat camp.

And just like I've already told you- he's a league leader on the basis of a hot streak tha included two 5 point games. He was in one of his trademark slumps where he failed to register a point in 6 of 8 before he got hurt. So, he won't be there for long.

Once again, some of you let a few good things blind you to mistakes and inconsistencies. As good as you think Vanek is, he could and should be better. But he's not just good- he's good enough, right

I'm so tired of Buffalo fans accepting mediocrity.

[Skooby]

Except that I'm not wrong. Not even close.

Having the best +/- on this team is like being the fastest sprinter in fat camp.

And just like I've already told you- he's a league leader on the basis of a hot streak tha included two 5 point games. He was in one of his trademark slumps where he failed to register a point in 6 of 8 before he got hurt. So, he won't be there for long.

Once again, some of you let a few good things blind you to mistakes and inconsistencies. As good as you think Vanek is, he could and should be better. But he's not just good- he's good enough, right

I'm so tired of Buffalo fans accepting mediocrity.

He's also been playing hurt, so I'm assuming that he scored quite a bit when he wasn't hurt. I don't think you have all the facts to back up what you're saying (he won't be there for long). If he doesn't play, then yes he won't be there.

The only one being fooled is anyone that believes Vanek isn't our best player or will help us win, that's just crazy talk.

[OpIv37]

Of course. Every time Vanek slumps, he's hurt. Guy must be hurt for at least 3 periods of 3-4 weeks every season.

And he was clearly slumping and you can't count on him to have 5 point games since he's only had two in his career, so he wasn't going to be a league leader much longer. But lucky for you, he got hurt, so that bails him out.

And I never said he wasn't our best player. In fact, I said he IS our best player, which is why we can't afford these stupid mistakes from him. He helps us win when he doesn't go into a slump or makes stupid mistakes. Unfortunately, he does slump and make stupid mistakes far too often, especially for a team's best player, and that's one of the reasons why the Sabres lose. That's been my point all along.

[gebobs]

Once again, I never said "mistake free." I said he can't make stupid mistakes. There's a huge difference.
Stupidity is in the eye of the beholder i.e. any mistake can be called stupid. Differentiating between "stupid" and "smart" mistakes is an exercise in futility. It is what is commonly called here "Monday morning quarterbacking" or "having the benefit of hindsight". Things happen pretty fast out there. If you've ever played hockey, you would know that. And they happen much faster at the professional level than at any level that you or I ever played at.

Mistakes are mistakes, whether you or anyone else thinks they are stupid. Vanek makes far fewer than any other player on the team. He's the man on this team, for better or worse.

[gebobs]

Of course. Every time Vanek slumps, he's hurt. Guy must be hurt for at least 3 periods of 3-4 weeks every season.Have you ever noticed the pounding he takes in front of the net? The guy is asked to be the man in the muck every game and he takes that task without hesitation. He pays the price for it too.

[OpIv37]

I wouldn't say he makes far fewer than anyone on the team. Once again, how many players on our team have as many offensive zone penalties as Vanek.

And yes, stupidity can be in the eye of the beholder but some things are stupid no matter what. Offensive zone penalties are stupid no matter what. And if he couldn't handle the speed, he wouldn't be there in the first place. It's a lame excuse because the game is fast all the time for every player. If the speed is the reason for mistakes, then every player would be constantly screwing up.

[OpIv37]

Have you ever noticed the pounding he takes in front of the net? The guy is asked to be the man in the muck every game and he takes that task without hesitation. He pays the price for it too.

Yeah and he's not the only one on the team or in the league who does it.

But, whatever excuse we can find, right? God forbid we hold him accountable for his slumps- it must be an injury or the coaching or the rest of the team not performing or a mistake that's excusable because someone else did it too, right?

[gebobs]

Yeah and he's not the only one on the team or in the league who does it.
No one on the team does it more than he does and he's not the only guy that gets upper body injuries either on the team or the league.


But, whatever excuse we can find, right? God forbid we hold him accountable for his slumps- it must be an injury or the coaching or the rest of the team not performing or a mistake that's excusable because someone else did it too, right?
What excuse? It's reality.

I wasn't talking about his slumps, just the injuries. I know Vanek is streaky. Everyone that follows hockey knows it. Regardless, he's still one of the top players at his position and that's another thing that everyone knows too. Though seemingly you don't.

[gebobs]

I wouldn't say he makes far fewer than anyone on the team.No. Who is this paragon of hockey skills? Let's start with passing. Who on this team is a better passer? Other than Pominville and Hodgson, no one comes close.


Offensive zone penalties are stupid no matter what.
You seem to not understand what it takes to gain and maintain zone pressure. Once you have it, you try to do whatever you can to do to keep it short of taking that penalty. But that line between forcing a defensive turnover which leads to a goal and making that mistake that leads to an offensive penalty is thin and razor thin at the professional level.

LOL But by all means, park your butt in that Barcalounger and bark out that snap count though it's now Tuesday. Hypercritical, 100% hindsight.

Vanek is the best player on the Sabres now. Don't like it? Pound salt.

[PTI]

Have you ever noticed the pounding he takes in front of the net? The guy is asked to be the man in the muck every game and he takes that task without hesitation. He pays the price for it too.

Besides being OK at faceoffs, that was the only Gausted was good for, take some PK time away from Vanek getting cross checked for about a minute and change and shoved around in front of the net.

[OpIv37]

No. Who is this paragon of hockey skills? Let's start with passing. Who on this team is a better passer? Other than Pominville and Hodgson, no one comes close.


You seem to not understand what it takes to gain and maintain zone pressure. Once you have it, you try to do whatever you can to do to keep it short of taking that penalty. But that line between forcing a defensive turnover which leads to a goal and making that mistake that leads to an offensive penalty is thin and razor thin at the professional level.

LOL But by all means, park your butt in that Barcalounger and bark out that snap count though it's now Tuesday. Hypercritical, 100% hindsight.

Vanek is the best player on the Sabres now. Don't like it? Pound salt.

If the line is so razor thin, then explain to me why there aren't more offensive zone penalties. I see maybe two a game between both teams. Seems like a lot of guys who you claim make more mistakes than Vanek don't seem to have a problem staying on the right side of that line.

And it's not being hypercritical. It's you making up excuses to defend dumb penalties by a guy you like.

WTF is wrong with people here? Yesterday I had someone telling me that it was ok for Stevie to take a delay of game for kicking the ball because it shows passion, and now I have you telling me its ok for Vanek to take offensive zone penalties. Why can't people just admit that our top guys make dumb mistakes far more than top guys should?

[gebobs]

If the line is so razor thin, then explain to me why there aren't more offensive zone penalties. I see maybe two a game between both teams. Seems like a lot of guys who you claim make more mistakes than Vanek don't seem to have a problem staying on the right side of that line.
First of all, unless you have some objective stats, I'm going to suspect there might be some confirmation bias going on here.

Secondly, who on the Sabres is getting all this offensive zone pressure and generating plays that result in goals more than Vanek? Vanek has nearly 7 points per 100 minutes of ice time. Hodgson is a distant second at 4.4. Ennis has 3.7. No one else has even half Vanek's scoring rate.


And it's not being hypercritical. It's you making up excuses to defend dumb penalties by a guy you like.
It is being hypercritical when you conjure up horsecrap like "he makes more stupid mistakes than anyone" without even a shred of evidence to back it up.


WTF is wrong with people here? Yesterday I had someone telling me that it was ok for Stevie to take a delay of game for kicking the ball because it shows passion, and now I have you telling me its ok for Vanek to take offensive zone penalties.
Once again, the problem may be with you. I have never once said that it's ok to take offensive zone penalties. All I've said is that it's not realistic to think that guys like Vanek aren't going to take them from time to time and that I think there's a bit of confirmation bias when you say that other top players don't.


Why can't people just admit that our top guys make dumb mistakes far more than top guys should?
I admit it freely and have never said otherwise. Obviously, the Sabres top guys aren't doing enough. But the lion's share of the problems are not Vanek as you have complained about for pages and pages of this thread.

Pominville has had scoring droughts this season that would embarrass even Vanek and regularly makes the PP an opponent's odd man rush. Hodgson has been a defensive liability all season. Miller has had games that would make Enroth look like real NHL goalie if he didn't completely blow this season. Ennis couldn't win a faceoff if his mother's life depended on it. Gerbe, other than the last week, looks lost. Stafford is invisible. Myers, Ehrhoff, and Regehr have been abysmal. I have to wonder at what the coaches are drilling when I see the Sabres constantly throw the puck along the boards only to have the opposition winger waiting for the puck or the point man pinching. Generally, the passing is atrocious. The only player whose passes are reliably tape-to-tape is Vanek.

[PTI]

Besides being OK at faceoffs, that was the only Gausted was good for, take some PK time away from Vanek getting cross checked for about a minute and change and shoved around in front of the net.

Meant to say Power Play in front of the net

[OpIv37]

For the record, I never said "Vanek makes more mistakes than anyone." Someone said that Vanek makes fewer mistakes than anyone on the team and I disagreed. I don't think he makes the most but be certainly doesn't make the least.

And I never said that other guys don't take offensive zone penalties. I just said they don't do it as frequently as Vanek. You want stats? The only Sabres fwd's that have more PIM's than Vanek are the ones that have been in fights: Foligno, Kaleta Ott and Scott.
http://sabres.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20122013&srt=pim

[Skooby]

Players make mistakes but Vanek has produced much more than he has failed for our team, it shows on the stat sheets & the ice. There's also other factors that he does by setting up a play but doesn't get on the score sheet, remember that goal the other night after he shot & the rebound got pumped right back in ??

http://espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400442766

He didn't hit the sheet but he shot it to get the play started, things like that get missed by layman. I played hockey at a very high level as a kid, Niagara Scenics & above. Vanek sets plays all the time, he's a constant threat to help us score if he gets the puck. We have almost no one like that on our team besides him that has played like that, you're crazy to think he's a problem in any way shape or fashion.

For the record, previous years you might have a chance at an argument but not this year thus far. If he's healthy & playing, he's been a constant threat. How many shootouts have you watched lately where he's went first & scored ?? That puts huge pressure on our opponents, notice the SO loss to the Rangers ?? Vanek was missing, that didn't help at all.

[OpIv37]

This year? Vanek was awesome. For about 12 games. Then he went right back to how he was in previous years. Pointless in 6 of the last 8 before getting hurt. And it's been forever since he's had an even strength goal.

You say I might have won that argument in previous years but Vanek has been the exac same player he was in previous years for roughly 40% of the season so far.

[Skooby]

This year? Vanek was awesome. For about 12 games. Then he went right back to how he was in previous years. Pointless in 6 of the last 8 before getting hurt. And it's been forever since he's had an even strength goal.

You say I might have won that argument in previous years but Vanek has been the exac same player he was in previous years for roughly 40% of the season so far.

I can't remember him leading the league in scoring nearly halfway through a season or at anypoint in his career but maybe you can.

[gebobs]

For the record, I never said "Vanek makes more mistakes than anyone." Someone said that Vanek makes fewer mistakes than anyone on the team and I disagreed. I don't think he makes the most but be certainly doesn't make the least.

Who makes fewer? I'd like to know. And forget about a few penalties. Let's talk about the little things like passing and shooting. Who misses fewer passes? I've been watching every game and it's almost a surprise when Ennis, Gerbe, Stafford or Hecht can actually get the puck to the intended target. Heck, most of the team hardly even takes a look before throwing the puck blindly up the ice only to turn it over and get the Sabres back on their heels again.

But Vanek always looks to make a pass. But when you have hands and talent coming out the wazoo, you can be reasonably sure you can hold onto the puck before someone takes it from you. Those other guys don't have that talent or the confidence. Unfortunately, passing stats are not kept AFAIK so it's just my opinion at this point. But if assists are any indication, Vanek leads the team with 15 and some of them have been beauties.

As for shooting, Vanek again leads the team (min. 20 shots) with a 16.5% shooting percent. Only five other players with 20 or more shots have >10% accuracy. And when you lead the team in shots too, that translates to a boat load of goals. Stafford's shooting percentage is 3.4%, Foligno is 3.1%, Hecht is 2.7%. So if not burying the puck is a mistake, then these guys make a lot more mistakes than Vanek.


And I never said that other guys don't take offensive zone penalties. I just said they don't do it as frequently as Vanek.And as I said, that comes with the territory when you are an aggressive forward. Vanek makes things happen and the other team pays. Vanek does that way more - WAY WAY MORE - than any other player on the team. If the price of that is a penalty every third game, I'm good with it.

[OpIv37]

Well, first, he hasn't lead the league in scoring in quite some time. Considering we are just at the halfway point now, it's disingenuous to say he led the league in scoring for nearly half the season.

Second, it's an abbreviated season. So, in reality he led the league in scoring for less than a quarter of a regular season.

I'm wondering if the hot start is due to the fact that he played overseas while most of the league didn't. He was in mid-season form while they were in preseason form. Now that the playing field is more even, he's coming back down to reality. I'll admit that's just conjecture on my part though- even if its correct there is no real way to prove it.

[gebobs]

OK...we get it. You think Vanek is overrated. It's your opinion. You have every right to it and seemingly nothing will dissuade you. On the other hand, I'm not going to be convinced by things like "he makes too many stupid mistakes" or "he takes too many offensive penalties". I've said it's Monday morning quarterbacking but another idiom comes to mind: throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[OpIv37]

OK...we get it. You think Vanek is overrated. It's your opinion. You have every right to it and seemingly nothing will dissuade you. On the other hand, I'm not going to be convinced by things like "he makes too many stupid mistakes" or "he takes too many offensive penalties". I've said it's Monday morning quarterbacking but another idiom comes to mind: throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It's not Monday morning quarterbacking- it's the reality. You dismiss it as such because you don't want to hear that our best player makes too many mistakes. You just respond with "those are aggressive mistakes so they're ok." It's utter nonsense.

[Skooby]

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking- it's the reality. You dismiss it as such because you don't want to hear that our best player makes too many mistakes. You just respond with "those are aggressive mistakes so they're ok." It's utter nonsense.

Statistically speaking & after watching the games over, you're wrong on all accounts.

[OpIv37]

Statistically speaking & after watching the games over, you're wrong on all accounts.

No, I'm not. I've seen Vanek take multiple bad offensive zone penalties. I've seen him botch breakaways and fan when he had half the net open and fail to clear the zone. And I'm not talking about ones where he didnt really have a chance- I'm talking about plays that he should have been able to make.

The stat sheets you are referring to dont track that stuff.

And like I said, as far as PIM's he's got more of them than any fwd except the ones who fight, despite playing fewer games than many of them. So, that stat supports my assertion.

Somehow you have a misconception that if a guy had a hot streak, it means he didn't make mistakes. That's simply not true.

[gebobs]

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking- it's the reality.
It's not. It's stupid. Even Gretzky, Messier, Espo, Clarke, and Howe took offensive penalties. Vanek has 8 penalties in 20 games which translates to roughly 60 minutes over a regular season. I'm not sure how many of those you would consider stupid, but I'll leave you to go review the games.

But let's see what damage they caused?
Game 2 v. Leafs: tripping, 2nd period, no goal. Sabres win.
Game 4 v. Canes: double minor unsportmanlike conduct, 1st, no goal. Tripping, 3rd, sealed the win for Carolina.
Game 7 v. Habs: tripping, 2nd , no goal. Sabres lose.
Game 10 v. Habs: interference, 1st, no goal. Vanek scores two, adds one in SO. Sabres win.
Game 18 v. NYI: interference, 2nd, Isles score. Sabres lose 4-0.
Game 20 v. FLA: interference (weak call), 2nd, no goal. Sabres win in SO with Vanek/Pommers.

So there you have it. 2/8 penalties resulted in goals on one side. One killed any chance of a Sabres comeback and the other likely had no impact. On the other hand, you have 12 goals and 15 assists, ranks 1st in the NHL in takeaways with 27, and is perfect in shootouts.

Even Gretzky, who is arguably the most skilled player of all time and arguably a ref favorite, had a few seasons with 50+ minutes.Last year, Malkin had 70, Stamkos had 66. H.Sedin had 52. The year before, of the top 15 scorers, 15 had 40+ minutes. Complaining about 16 minutes at this point is, again, being hypercritical.


You dismiss it as such because you don't want to hear that our best player makes too many mistakes. You just respond with "those are aggressive mistakes so they're ok." It's utter nonsense.

No hand waving here. I reject it with evidence. Vanek leads the league takeaways with 27. That's aggressive. He's tied for 5th in points. That's making the other team pay. He has a few penalties. That's the price you pay and I'm completely fine with it.

[gebobs]

No, I'm not. I've seen Vanek take multiple bad offensive zone penalties. I've seen him botch breakaways and fan when he had half the net open and fail to clear the zone. And I'm not talking about ones where he didnt really have a chance- I'm talking about plays that he should have been able to make.
Offensive zone penalties - "multiple" i.e. somewhere between two and eight. Big whup.

Botch breakaways - plural? Really? When. Oh you mean he didn't score with a defenseman on his back when on average a shooter scores about 30% of the time in shootouts? Oh do tell!

Fan on an open net? Mmmkay...leads the team in shooting percentage so that's garbage. Better than Crosby, St. Louis, Tavares. So that's garbage.


The stat sheets you are referring to dont track that stuff.
And neither do you. This is nothing more than selective memory.

[Skooby]

He's perfect in the shootout , simply on that alone that's huge considering how many we will play in during this season.

[OpIv37]

Offensive zone penalties - "multiple" i.e. somewhere between two and eight. Big whup.

Botch breakaways - plural? Really? When. Oh you mean he didn't score with a defenseman on his back when on average a shooter scores about 30% of the time in shootouts? Oh do tell!

Fan on an open net? Mmmkay...leads the team in shooting percentage so that's garbage. Better than Crosby, St. Louis, Tavares. So that's garbage.


And neither do you. This is nothing more than selective memory.

Is his shooting percentage 100? No? Then it's not garbage. Just because he made some doesn't mean he didnt also miss some makeable ones.

I don't remember when those things happened but I *****ed about it at the time so the posts are there. I'm sure you were there to tell me why it wasn Vanek's fault though.

And I said in my previous post that I was talking about plays he should have made- ie not breakaways where he had a defender on him.

[OpIv37]

It's not. It's stupid. Even Gretzky, Messier, Espo, Clarke, and Howe took offensive penalties. Vanek has 8 penalties in 20 games which translates to roughly 60 minutes over a regular season. I'm not sure how many of those you would consider stupid, but I'll leave you to go review the games.

But let's see what damage they caused?
Game 2 v. Leafs: tripping, 2nd period, no goal. Sabres win.
Game 4 v. Canes: double minor unsportmanlike conduct, 1st, no goal. Tripping, 3rd, sealed the win for Carolina.
Game 7 v. Habs: tripping, 2nd , no goal. Sabres lose.
Game 10 v. Habs: interference, 1st, no goal. Vanek scores two, adds one in SO. Sabres win.
Game 18 v. NYI: interference, 2nd, Isles score. Sabres lose 4-0.
Game 20 v. FLA: interference (weak call), 2nd, no goal. Sabres win in SO with Vanek/Pommers.

So there you have it. 2/8 penalties resulted in goals on one side. One killed any chance of a Sabres comeback and the other likely had no impact. On the other hand, you have 12 goals and 15 assists, ranks 1st in the NHL in takeaways with 27, and is perfect in shootouts.

Even Gretzky, who is arguably the most skilled player of all time and arguably a ref favorite, had a few seasons with 50+ minutes.Last year, Malkin had 70, Stamkos had 66. H.Sedin had 52. The year before, of the top 15 scorers, 15 had 40+ minutes. Complaining about 16 minutes at this point is, again, being hypercritical.


No hand waving here. I reject it with evidence. Vanek leads the league takeaways with 27. That's aggressive. He's tied for 5th in points. That's making the other team pay. He has a few penalties. That's the price you pay and I'm completely fine with it.

So, by your own numbers, Vanek took penalties that hurt the team 3 times in the 20 games he's played this season. That's too many for the supposed bed player on the team. And you posted some numbers but you have nothing that proves taking penalties comes from trying to get takeaways. That's just your way of defending Vanek for hurting his team 3 times in a mere 20 games.

[PTI]

Vanek is back in the lineup!

Vanek would be +10 if not for Hodson!!

[rbochan]

16300

[gebobs]

So, by your own numbers, Vanek took penalties that hurt the team 3 times in the 20 games he's played this season.
One.


And you posted some numbers but you have nothing that proves taking penalties comes from trying to get takeaways.
It's a whole lot more than you just baselessly asserting that he "takes too many penalties" and "he makes to many stupid mistakes"

Pros:
Leads the league in takeaways.
5th in the league in points, leads the team.
5th in the league in goals, leads the team.
5th in the league in power play goals, leads the team.
15th in the league in assists, leads the team.
14th in the league in shots, leads the team.
Of the top 20 scorers in the league, has the 6th best shooting pct.
Best shooting pct on the team (min. 20 shots).
Tied for second on the team in +/-.
Perfect 2/2 in shootouts thus far.
IMHO, the best passer on the team.

Cons:
He took a couple penalties that OpIv37 thinks are stupid.

Your conclusion:
Vanek is overrated. He's a detriment to the team. The Sabres would be better off without him.

My conclusion:
This thread is stupid. Vanek is the best forward on the team. Without Vanek, the Sabres would be much much worse.

[Skooby]

One.


It's a whole lot more than you just baselessly asserting that he "takes too many penalties" and "he makes to many stupid mistakes"

Pros:
Leads the league in takeaways.
5th in the league in points, leads the team.
5th in the league in goals, leads the team.
5th in the league in power play goals, leads the team.
15th in the league in assists, leads the team.
14th in the league in shots, leads the team.
Of the top 20 scorers in the league, has the 6th best shooting pct.
Best shooting pct on the team (min. 20 shots).
Tied for second on the team in +/-.
Perfect 2/2 in shootouts thus far.
IMHO, the best passer on the team.

Cons:
He took a couple penalties that OpIv37 thinks are stupid.

Your conclusion:
Vanek is overrated. He's a detriment to the team. The Sabres would be better off without him.

My conclusion:
This thread is stupid. Vanek is the best forward on the team. Without Vanek, the Sabres would be much much worse.

Why use logic when Vanek is over-rated, can't you see it ??

[OpIv37]

One.


It's a whole lot more than you just baselessly asserting that he "takes too many penalties" and "he makes to many stupid mistakes"

Pros:
Leads the league in takeaways.
5th in the league in points, leads the team.
5th in the league in goals, leads the team.
5th in the league in power play goals, leads the team.
15th in the league in assists, leads the team.
14th in the league in shots, leads the team.
Of the top 20 scorers in the league, has the 6th best shooting pct.
Best shooting pct on the team (min. 20 shots).
Tied for second on the team in +/-.
Perfect 2/2 in shootouts thus far.
IMHO, the best passer on the team.

Cons:
He took a couple penalties that OpIv37 thinks are stupid.

Your conclusion:
Vanek is overrated. He's a detriment to the team. The Sabres would be better off without him.

My conclusion:
This thread is stupid. Vanek is the best forward on the team. Without Vanek, the Sabres would be much much worse.

Once again, you read what you wanted instead of what I wrote. The penalties are just part of it, along with the missed open nets, botched breakaways, sloppy clears and general streaky play. Remember all of that? Probably not. I'm guessing your memory of games is just as selective as your reading comprehension.

Congrats- you cherry picked numbers from a 12 game hot streak (Vanek wasn't very good in the last 8 or so before getting hurt) where he actually lived up to his cap hit. It won't last because it never has. He has never been able to consistently play at that level or carry the team. Yeah, he does some good things, but when he simultaneously makes big mistakes and goes dormant for long stretches, it negates a good portion of the good he does. Teams can't win with their best player pulling that crap. Don't believe me? Look at the standings. You say it's not on Vanek, and of course not all of it is, but the reality is that he's part of the problem whether you see it or not.

I agree with you about one thing- the Sabres would be worse without him. However, a) that doesn't mean he's good enough to carry the team and b) that speaks more to the lack of quality amongst the rest of the team (wich is partially due to Vanek's cap hit). Being the fastest sprinter at fat camp isn't exactly impressive.

[OpIv37]

Why use logic when Vanek is over-rated, can't you see it ??

Cherry picking what I said and mixing it with stats cherry-picked from a brief hot streak is not logic.

[OpIv37]

Oh and one more thing: the assertion wasn't baseless. Go back and read the game day threads. Vanek's mistakes are well documented. And I watched a lot of games on tape delay so I didn't even participate in all of them to document everything.

You saying its baseless doesn't make it so. You just see what you want when you watch the games.

[gebobs]

Oh and one more thing: the assertion wasn't baseless. Go back and read the game day threads. Vanek's mistakes are well documented. And I watched a lot of games on tape delay so I didn't even participate in all of them to document everything.

You saying its baseless doesn't make it so. You just see what you want when you watch the games.
Your bar for evidence is pretty low. Saying you backed up your argument with subjective anecdotes in other threads doesn't count.a

- - - Updated - - -


Cherry picking what I said and mixing it with stats cherry-picked from a brief hot streak is not logic.
And cherry picking a few penalties without game context is?

[gebobs]

Is his shooting percentage 100? No? Then it's not garbage.
Lolwhut?


Just because he made some doesn't mean he didnt also miss some makeable ones.
And who doesn't. Here's a clue. Everyone does. And I have objective data that I have given that shows he misses less than any other Sabre forward and less than most of the top scorers in the league.


I don't remember when those things happened but I *****ed about it at the time so the posts are there.
Oh brother. Like I said...selective memory.

[Skooby]

Oh and one more thing: the assertion wasn't baseless. Go back and read the game day threads. Vanek's mistakes are well documented. And I watched a lot of games on tape delay so I didn't even participate in all of them to document everything.

You saying its baseless doesn't make it so. You just see what you want when you watch the games.

You're verbally backing up an argument that's conjecture to begin with, we're hitting you with hard stats & numbers.

[OpIv37]

Lolwhut?


And who doesn't. Here's a clue. Everyone does. And I have objective data that I have given that shows he misses less than any other Sabre forward and less than most of the top scorers in the league.


Oh brother. Like I said...selective memory.

I don't care if he misses less than other people. It's still a mistake. I don't know why you continue to insist that mistakes are acceptable if other people make them too or if other people make more.

And once again, being better than the other Sabres forwards is not exactly impressive.

[OpIv37]

You're verbally backing up an argument that's conjecture to begin with, we're hitting you with hard stats & numbers.

There aren't hard stats on sloppy clears. There aren't hard stats on missed breakaways or fanning on open nets. And your "hard stats" are cherry picked from a hot streak. And commenting on what I saw during the games is not conjecture. Just because someone at NHL.com didn't record it on a stat sheet doesn't make it conjecture.

[OpIv37]

Your bar for evidence is pretty low. Saying you backed up your argument with subjective anecdotes in other threads doesn't count.a

- - - Updated - - -


And cherry picking a few penalties without game context is?
Once again, the NHL doesn't keep stats on sloppy clears or missed breakaways or fanning on open nets. Tat doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm arguing with two people who have very selective memories.

And "game context?" Please. More excuses. It's never Vanek's fault, is it?

[gebobs]

Once again, you read what you wanted instead of what I wrote. The penalties are just part of it, along with the missed open nets, botched breakaways, sloppy clears and general streaky play.
I addressed those earlier. "Botched breakaways"? "Missed open nets"? "Sloppy clears"? LOL...get real.

I don't know what you mean by botched breakaways, but as I said earlier, even in the best situation for the shooter, the shootout, the shooter has on average a 30-40% chance to score. Put a defender on his back chipping at his legs and harassing his shot, and it's not going to get any better. And if Vanek misses more, it's only because he gets more. He has THE best hands on the team. He has THE best sense of the game on the team. And he's one of the fastest skaters on the team. Gerbe and Ennis might be quick, but they are more likely to flub the pass. Not Vanek. He cradles it like a baby and is away to the races.

Sloppy clears? Please. For every botched clear by Vanek, I can show you a dozen each by Hodgson, Stafford, and Hecht. Vanek doesn't just throw the puck around like everyone else on the team. He looks his passes and he connects more often than not.

Streaky play? Sure. We all know that. That's what you get with Vanek. I wish he could score on a 3 PPG clip for an entire season, but it's not going to happen. Especially not when he's the only guy doing a damn thing. Crosby has Malkin. Sedin has Sedin. Stamkos has St. Louis. Kane has Toews.

Vanek has...um...Pominville? Please.

[gebobs]

Once again, the NHL doesn't keep stats on sloppy clears or missed breakaways or fanning on open nets. Tat doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm arguing with two people who have very selective memories.
I'm saying unless you have the stats, we ALL have selective memories. That's why I don't rely solely on subjective criteria. Everyone is subject to selection bias.


And "game context?" Please. More excuses. It's never Vanek's fault, is it?
Never said that. Vanek is clearly to blame for putting the brakes on a possible comeback in one game. Aside from that, he's been the main reason why we have won a bunch of games or even been in contention in some of the close ones. But that's not good enough for you. It's like looking at the Bills last year and complaining that Spiller didn't do enough to get them in the playoffs.

[OpIv37]

I'm saying unless you have the stats, we ALL have selective memories. That's why I don't rely solely on subjective criteria. Everyone is subject to selection bias.


Never said that. Vanek is clearly to blame for putting the brakes on a possible comeback in one game. Aside from that, he's been the main reason why we have won a bunch of games or even been in contention in some of the close ones. But that's not good enough for you. It's like looking at the Bills last year and complaining that Spiller didn't do enough to get them in the playoffs.
And there we have it. "Good enough." Look at your last post and how highly you think of Vanek. You clearly don't see things objectively and don't see that he makes mistakes and has plenty of room for improvement.

Yeah, there are plenty of other guys on the team who make sloppy clears too. But a) they don't eat up nearly as much cap space as Vanek does and b) I don't care how many times you say it, other people making mistakes does NOT give Vanek an excuse to make them too.

And even when you admit Vanek is streaky, you blame it on Pominville.

Yeah, you're damn right it's not good enough. It's not good enough when the best player on the team still makes the stupid mistakes I've complained about in this thread. It's not good enough when he goes through cold streaks and its not good enough that even when he's playing well, the team still doesn't win. Yeah, the losses are never all his fault, but he can do more to help the team win, and with his cap hit, he should. No, he must, or else..... Well, just look at the standings.

Just another example of Buffalo fans accepting mediocrity. Vanek's not just good- he's good enough.

[OpIv37]

IT'S THE THOMAS VANEK HAT TRICK!!!!

3/5 vs Carolina
About halfway through the second, Sabres on the PP. Vanek screws up trying to gain the zone and gives Carolina a 2 on 0. Not a typo: short handed 2 on ZERO. Luckily Semin sucks and Miller bailed his ass out.

1:17 left in the 2nd: puck comes to Vanek just outside the crease, goalie out of position, net half open. He just barely taps it, gets no lumber on the puck. The AHL call up goalie is able to make the save.

About 1:20 left in the game, goalie pulled, Sabres down by two: Vanek takes an offensive zone interference call and kills any hope at a comeback.

These are the kinds of mistakes that no NHL player should make. The supposed best player on the team should NEVER do this ****, especially not giving up a 2 on 0 while on the PP. Vanek made these mistakes THREE TIMES in HALF A GAME.

The Vanek line opened the game with a strong shift, and I thought I was gonna be eating some crow. Instead, he proved the exact point I've been trying to make all along.

[Mski]

FWIW that interference call at the end of the game was complete BS

[OpIv37]

FWIW that interference call at the end of the game was complete BS

even if I give you that, it's still two major flubs in half a period. The best player on the team shouldn't ever make those kinds of mistakes and he definitely can't make 2 in a 10 min span.

[Mski]

i didnt get home from work till the start of the third so i really cant comment on the other two, but i remember on the radio braodcast even Ray was giving him crap for the missed goal

[Captain Obvious]

Gotcha. :-)




Opiv37 doesnt like gotcha moments because it means he was proven wrong

[Skooby]

Opiv37 doesnt like gotcha moments because it means he was proven wrong

If he doesn't admit to it, he's not wrong. Just to be clear here.

[OpIv37]

Opiv37 doesnt like gotcha moments because it means he was proven wrong

Lmao. I was proven right on Tuesday.

[OpIv37]

3/12 against the Rangers

5:00 gone in the first- sloppy clear that leads to two shots on goal for the Rangers. I was gonna let him slide on this one- it was a mistake but not that bad. Then these things happened:

A little less than 10:00 gone in the first- pressure from the Sabres. Vanek misses twice before Poms shoots it wide.

First Sabres PP: Vanek gets checked in his own zone on the PP then ices the puck. Then, after the face off, he misses a back pass and has to retreat behind his own net, killing PP time. 3 mistakes on one PP shift from the "star."

To his credit, he had a nice breakaway goal so I can't criticize him for that tonight. And I actually think he played well in the 2nd half of the game. But that one PP shift was inexcusable from the "best player."

[Skooby]

3/12 against the Rangers

5:00 gone in the first- sloppy clear that leads to two shots on goal for the Rangers. I was gonna let him slide on this one- it was a mistake but not that bad. Then these things happened:

A little less than 10:00 gone in the first- pressure from the Sabres. Vanek misses twice before Poms shoots it wide.

First Sabres PP: Vanek gets checked in his own zone on the PP then ices the puck. Then, after the face off, he misses a back pass and has to retreat behind his own net, killing PP time. 3 mistakes on one PP shift from the "star."

To his credit, he had a nice breakaway goal so I can't criticize him for that tonight. And I actually think he played well in the 2nd half of the game. But that one PP shift was inexcusable from the "best player."

We just beat a team that had won 5 of their last 6 games, unreal. You'd probably dwell on the mole instead of banging Cindy Crawford.

[OpIv37]

We just beat a team that had won 5 of their last 6 games, unreal. You'd probably dwell on the mole instead of banging Cindy Crawford.
I point out that Vanek makes too many mistakes.

You argue with me and ask for proof and specific examples.

I give it to you, and then you turn around and try to make this about me.

Somewhere, people got this crazy idea that players can't make mistakes or have bad games in a win.
This thread isn't about whether the Sabres won or lost. It's about his Vanek played, and he had some pretty shaky moments. His goal and the outcome don't make those mistakes disappear.

[SkateZilla]

Then he argues that the team won, classic Fanage.

[Skooby]

Then he argues that the team won, classic Fanage.

It's crazy, isn't it?

[OpIv37]

Are you people really that daft, or are you just trying to piss me off?

A win doesn't mean every player played well. This is not about winning or losing. It's about how Vanek played.

[Skooby]

Are you people really that daft, or are you just trying to piss me off?

A win doesn't mean every player played well. This is not about winning or losing. It's about how Vanek played.

You might be watching the games for a different reason than me then.

[OpIv37]

You might be watching the games for a different reason than me then.

I'm not talking about the reasons I watch the games. I'm talking about how Vanek played.

[Skooby]

I'm not talking about the reasons I watch the games. I'm talking about how Vanek played.

You're picking apart all around play versus all around results, which all favorite Vanek's play.

[OpIv37]

You're picking apart all around play versus all around results, which all favorite Vanek's play.

No, it doesn't.

I never said Vanek doesn't get results. What I said was that those results come at the price of his mistakes. And teams can't win when their "best player" makes so many mistakes.

We have a struggling PP. True stars come through and make something happen. Vanek makes 3 mistakes in one shift and adds to the woes. Yeah, he can't fix the PP on his own, but he can at least pull his head out of his ass and not make it worse. That isn't too much to ask.

[Skooby]

No, it doesn't.

I never said Vanek doesn't get results. What I said was that those results come at the price of his mistakes. And teams can't win when their "best player" makes so many mistakes.

We have a struggling PP. True stars come through and make something happen. Vanek makes 3 mistakes in one shift and adds to the woes. Yeah, he can't fix the PP on his own, but he can at least pull his head out of his ass and not make it worse. That isn't too much to ask.

On the PP, the team has sucked. Vanek is all around is our best, maybe not good enough for you but our best player. It's hard to say that Vanek's PP performance isn't the best, the whole team has stunk it up big time. One factor of play with a new coach is the team not having a proper direction on a specific event, it's a chemistry in progress that needs a lot of work. Our PP is horrible.

[OpIv37]

On the PP, the team has sucked. Vanek is all around is our best, maybe not good enough for you but our best player. It's hard to say that Vanek's PP performance isn't the best, the whole team has stunk it up big time. One factor of play with a new coach is the team not having a proper direction on a specific event, it's a chemistry in progress that needs a lot of work. Our PP is horrible.

Once again, it's not about me.

If Vanek is a team's best player, that team isn't going to win. Period. That's what I'm trying to say. If you don't believe me, just look at the team's record since Drury and Briere left. He's not a complete waste like a lot of guys on this roster, but he's also not a #1 guy. Unfortunately, he gets paid like a #1 guy and the team tries to use him as a #1 guy, so he needs to be held to that standard.

[Skooby]

Once again, it's not about me.

If Vanek is a team's best player, that team isn't going to win. Period. That's what I'm trying to say. If you don't believe me, just look at the team's record since Drury and Briere left. He's not a complete waste like a lot of guys on this roster, but he's also not a #1 guy. Unfortunately, he gets paid like a #1 guy and the team tries to use him as a #1 guy, so he needs to be held to that standard.

Like our #1 point scorer ? How about + / - leader ? What's the standard here ? Maybe he need to be the flawless leader but he passes to other people, so they need to perform as well. Every shift of his involves variables of players around him that make his play better, so does that mean he's weak on the pass ? He's trying to improve this team based on actions, all not flawed but potentially confusing to the received. Vanek's passes look strong with a reception of confusion to me, like mistakes to the guy attempting to forward them. What else can do but present the option to explore?

[OpIv37]

Like our #1 point scorer ? How about + / - leader ? What's the standard here ? Maybe he need to be the flawless leader but he passes to other people, so they need to perform as well. Every shift of his involves variables of players around him that make his play better, so does that mean he's weak on the pass ? He's trying to improve this team based on actions, all not flawed but potentially confusing to the received. Vanek's passes look strong with a reception of confusion to me, like mistakes to the guy attempting to forward them. What else can do but present the option to explore?

Yeah, you're right- that's not his fault. But he gave up a 2 on 0 breakaway on the PP two games ago and he iced the puck on the PP in the last game. That kind of crap is his fault. Those are major mistakes- the kind we can't afford for the "best player" to make. I'm not saying he has to be perfect or that all the team's problems are his fault. I'm simply saying that we shouldn't have to put up with these kinds of major mistakes to get the production. There are players with half the talent Vanek has that don't pull this dumbass ****.

[OpIv37]

Here we go again.

4/9 against Winnipeg

About 14 min left in the second: sloppy clear leads to scoring chance by Winnipeg
6:11 left in the 2nd: nice steal to get a 1 on 1 with the goalie, gets stuffed
End of the 2nd: neutral zone turnover leads to a late goal by Winnipeg to make it 3-0

Vanek doesn't have his head up his ass and this game is 2-1 after 2 instead of 3-0

[Skooby]

Vanek has been a liability this game, I might not understand why a coach changes a winning line-up myself.

[SkateZilla]

he was floating everywhere, even to the bench.... like maybe he was shot up with Painkillers... but he was skating like he didnt wanna be there,... in teh 2nd period when it was 1-1, he passed up on shooting on the 2on1, that woulda have normally been a hard one timer goal, instead he tried to force a pass back.

[OpIv37]

Maybe they forced him back before he was ready.

[Mski]

Maybe they forced him back before he was ready.

i relly think this is what happened, he didnt look comfortable out there, and didnt really drive the front of the net like he does when he's healthy... this is more than him just being "dinged up" as Lindy used to say, and i wouldnt be suprised to see him with less than 10 min ice time tonight