The other side of Bill Polian and the draft

[YardRat]

Looking back at only the first four rounds...

1986-1-Ronnie Harmon RB-2-no pick-3-Leonard Burton OL-4-no pick
1987-2-Roland Mitchell CB-3-David Brandon LB
1988-1-no pick-3-Bernard Ford WR-4-no pick
1989-1-no pick-2-no pick-4-John Kolesar WR
1990-1-James Williams CB-4-Eddie Fuller RB
1991-3-Darryl Wren CB
1992-2-James Patton DT-3-Keth Goganius LB-4-Frank Kmet DE

....Yes, even Mr Polian had his share of jettisoning a first round RB and drafting first round DB busts (and other high picks also). I even left out some of the 'reaches' like Fina that turned out OK, but not necessarily worth a first round pick.

[The Jokeman]

Looking back at only the first four rounds...

1986-1-Ronnie Harmon RB-2-no pick-3-Leonard Burton OL-4-no pick
1987-2-Roland Mitchell CB-3-David Brandon LB
1988-1-no pick-3-Bernard Ford WR-4-no pick
1989-1-no pick-2-no pick-4-John Kolesar WR
1990-1-James Williams CB-4-Eddie Fuller RB
1991-3-Darryl Wren CB
1992-2-James Patton DT-3-Keth Goganius LB-4-Frank Kmet DE

....Yes, even Mr Polian had his share of jettisoning a first round RB and drafting first round DB busts (and other high picks also). I even left out some of the 'reaches' like Fina that turned out OK, but not necessarily worth a first round pick.

Ronnie Harmon was not a bad player. He got a bum rap here because of the Cleveland drops but he had a very good career as a 3rd down back in San Diego after he left us. Leondard Burton was a career backup with not much of a career. Mitchell had a decent career after his time here having played seven seasons and starting for Green Bay in his 5th and 6th season. David Brandon had a nine year career which isn't bad. Bernard Ford and John Kolesar were admitted busts. James Williams was the start of the interchangeable 1st Round CBs we saw. Eddie Fuller was always great in preseason but not had a chance sitting behind a HOF guy like Thurman Thomas and an above average back up in Kenny Davis. Darryl Wren I was really high on and but sometimes we miss. Goganius was a sacrafice in the expansion draft as remember we were just too deep at LB that had to let go. Patton and Kmet were admitted busts.

So some of the guys you knocked actually were better than I think you gave credit for as you only looked at their time here but some of them did do things after leaving Buffalo which you can't say for most of our recent busts.

[better days]

Ronnie Harmon was not a bad player. He got a bum rap here because of the Cleveland drops but he had a very good career as a 3rd down back in San Diego after he left us. Leondard Burton was a career backup with not much of a career. Mitchell had a decent career after his time here having played seven seasons and starting for Green Bay in his 5th and 6th season. David Brandon had a nine year career which isn't bad. Bernard Ford and John Kolesar were admitted busts. James Williams was the start of the interchangeable 1st Round CBs we saw. Eddie Fuller was always great in preseason but not had a chance sitting behind a HOF guy like Thurman Thomas and an above average back up in Kenny Davis. Darryl Wren I was really high on and but sometimes we miss. Goganius was a sacrafice in the expansion draft as remember we were just too deep at LB that had to let go. Patton and Kmet were admitted busts.

So some of the guys you knocked actually were better than I think you gave credit for as you only looked at their time here but some of them did do things after leaving Buffalo which you can't say for most of our recent busts.

If a guy does well AFTER leaving the team that drafted him, I don't think you can say he was not a draft bust for the team that did draft him.

[The Jokeman]

If a guy does well AFTER leaving the team that drafted him, I don't think you can say he was not a draft bust for the team that did draft him.

and there are tons of reasons why guys bust on one team. Whether it be fit in scheme, coaching, surrounding talent etc. Heck look no further then some of the greats we had on those early 90s teams. Lofton was a scrub with the Raiders but was a Pro Browler here. We picked up Metzelaars was traded to in a trade as he only amassing 27 catches in three seasons in Seattle after being a 3rd Round pick. I just get upset when people never look guys entire careers, as appears Yardie was doing, and label guys as busts in general.

[better days]

and there are tons of reasons why guys bust on one team. Whether it be fit in scheme, coaching, surrounding talent etc. Heck look no further then some of the greats we had on those early 90s teams. Lofton was a scrub with the Raiders but was a Pro Browler here. We picked up Metzelaars was traded to in a trade as he only amassing 27 catches in three seasons in Seattle after being a 3rd Round pick. I just get upset when people never look guys entire careers, as appears Yardie was doing, and label guys as busts in general.

The Bills drafted a DT that went to SD & had a great & long career as well. I can't remember his name now, but he was a GOOD player for the Chargers. Players can go on to have success for other teams, but for the team that drafted them, I think they can be called draft busts.

[The Jokeman]

The Bills drafted a DT that went to SD & had a great & long career as well. I can't remember his name now, but he was a GOOD player for the Chargers. Players can go on to have success for other teams, but for the team that drafted them, I think they can be called draft busts.

I think you mean John Parrella.

[YardRat]

Ronnie Harmon was not a bad player.

I didn't say Harmon was a bad player, but he was a first round RB that wore out his welcome and got shipped out of town for lesser value, producing for his new team a la Marshawn Lynch.

Part of the point is not all upper-end draft choices need to be starters, PBers or HOFers...some, as you mentioned, become OK depth/back-ups.

[pmoon6]

You left out Shane Conlan and Nate Odomes in the first and second in '87 and Thurman in the second in '88. Henry Jones and Phil Hansen in the 1st and 2nd in '91. As well as later round picks like Keith Mckellar, Jeff Wright, Howard Ballard, and Carleton Bailey.

Very deceptive list.

[YardRat]

You left out Shane Conlan and Nate Odomes in the first and second in '87 and Thurman in the second in '88. Henry Jones and Phil Hansen in the 1st and 2nd in '91. As well as later round picks like Keith Mckellar, Jeff Wright, Howard Ballard, and Carleton Bailey.

Very deceptive list.

I left out the 'hits' intentionally, obviously. That's why 'The other side...' is the thread title.

[The Jokeman]

I didn't say Harmon was a bad player, but he was a first round RB that wore out his welcome and got shipped out of town for lesser value, producing for his new team a la Marshawn Lynch.

Part of the point is not all upper-end draft choices need to be starters, PBers or HOFers...some, as you mentioned, become OK depth/back-ups.

and sadly the Bills of late have failed to find starters in later round and/or even OK depth back ups and why this team is in constant rebuild. How many years ago did we draft Troupe and Easley? Neither one has shown to be anything in the NFL and why we need think about getting a WR this year. Also let's face it if McKelvin played up to where we drafted him the need for Gilmore wouldnt be warranted and we migth have come away with Kendell Wright in Round 1 instead of Tim Graham in Round 3. I still lament on the Lynch decision as prior to that draft I said the best short/long term decision pick was Dez Bryant. What happens? Three years later Lynch is an above average RB and Bryant is a number 1/2 WR in Dallas. I know people will crap on Fitz but given better players around him Fitz might be slightly better. Heck we might even not had drafted Aaron Williams had McKelvin not busted and maybe gotten Dalton or Kaepernick.

[YardRat]

and sadly the Bills of late have failed to find starters in later round and/or even OK depth back ups and why this team is in constant rebuild. As let's face it if McKelvin played up to where we drafted him the need for Gilmore wouldnt be warranted and we migth have come away with Kendell Wright in Round 1 instead of Tim Graham in Round 3. I still lament on the Lynch decision as prior to that draft I said the best short/long term decision pick was Dez Bryant. What happens? Three years later Lynch is an above average RB and Bryant is a number 1/2 WR in Dallas. I know people will crap on Fitz but given better players around him Fitz might be slightly better.

Go back and review the rest of Polian's drafts...more often than not (far more, actually) his later round picks were real downers.

[The Jokeman]

Go back and review the rest of Polian's drafts...more often than not (far more, actually) his later round picks were real downers.

True but he was able to make up for that with free agency, trades etc. Honestly Polian was the best we had but as you point out he was far from great. Yet what's the common denominator in everything? Ralph Wilson. He does a great job at running the Bills as a business but a lousy job as a football team as either too cheap to pay good scouts or not trustful enough of his GMs etc or he scares away good HCs (see Saban, Knox and maybe even Wade Phillips). It's sickening really.

[pmoon6]

I find it amusing that the guy that built the best team in franchise history is being second guessed, after the fact.

Must be the off season.

[The Jokeman]

I find it amusing that the guy that built the best team in franchise history is being second guessed, after the fact.

Must be the off season.

Maybe he's not second guessing Polian but pointing out this team is flawed even when things were good. As they say winning is the best cologne but if we dig deeper maybe the Bills just lucked out landing Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas and Jim Kelly all around the same time. As some have mentioned before had Kelly come to Buffalo in 1983 there's no guarantee he'd still be around in 1990.

[pmoon6]

Maybe he's not second guessing Polian but pointing out this team is flawed even when things were good. As they say winning is the best cologne but if we dig deeper maybe the Bills just lucked out landing Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas and Jim Kelly all around the same time. As some have mentioned before had Kelly come to Buffalo in 1983 there's no guarantee he'd still be around in 1990.All teams have flaws, that's why the teams that stay healthy are usually the one's that go deep in the playoffs. Also, don't forget that the Bills won the Comeback Game with Kelly, Biscuit and Thurman (for most of the game) on the bench.

Maybe Bill Walsh and Carmen Policy "lucked out" landing Montana in the third and drafting Jerry Rice, Roger Craig and John Taylor. Maybe Jimmy Johnson did the same trading Hershel Walker and getting Emmitt Smith and all the other players he took with those picks. He wasn't as "lucky" in Miami.

It's a ridiculous premise, but like I said, it's the off season.

Carry on.

[The Jokeman]

All teams have flaws, that's why the teams that stay healthy are usually the one's that go deep in the playoffs. Also, don't forget that the Bills won the Comeback Game with Kelly, Biscuit and Thurman (for most of the game) on the bench.

Maybe Bill Walsh and Carmen Policy "lucked out" landing Montana in the third and drafting Jerry Rice, Roger Craig and John Taylor. Maybe Jimmy Johnson did the same trading Hershel Walker and getting Emmitt Smith and all the other players he took with those picks. He wasn't as "lucky" in Miami.

It's a ridiculous premise, but like I said, it's the off season.

Carry on.

Fact is I never feel like the Bills have a true plan or never carry it all the way through they always end up blowing it up after a few seasons and look to start all over. Like right now we have a three year window it's a small hopeful one but if I have to go through it again in three more years with an aging Mario Williams, Kyle Williams, Stevie Johnson a free agent to be CJ Spiller and my disposition might not be as "positive".

[cookie G]

I find it amusing that the guy that built the best team in franchise history is being second guessed, after the fact.

Must be the off season.

Yep, its the offseason.

The point with Polian is..when he set out to build a defense...he built a defense.

In 3 years his defense went from

20th to
12th to
3rd

His office went from

20th to
24th to
14th (followed by 5 straight top 3 finishes)

Most importantly, his victories went from

4 to
7 to
12 (and a division title)

That was starting with a team that had back-to-back 2-14 seasons.

No endless "scheme" changes. No endless coaching and coordinator changes.
No whining about how we're still a half dozen players and 3 years away.
No 3-in-a-row-bottom-of-the-NFL-defenses-but-we're-right-around-the-corner bull crap.

He was right a hell of a lot more than he was wrong, and his team got better every year until it became elite.

I agree, I really hope Yardie isn't trying to compare these guys to Polian.

[TedMock]

Harmon wasn't really a bust. Drafting him allowed us to trade Greg Bell the following offseason in a 3-way deal that ultimately landed us Cornelius Bennett.

The offense in 1987 used a ton of FB dives and they swung Harmon out as a receiver a bunch. He led the team with over 100 carries and over 400 yards, but we used Mueller and Byrum in just as many carries for short yardage while Harmon was out catching 56 passes that year. He was on his way to a decent career.

Polian subscribed to BPA and simply felt the reward outweighed the risk of a bad knee injury in the 2nd round, so he jumped on Thurman Thomas. We had a decent back, but Polian felt Thomas was a special player and went for it.

[Ingtar33]

wow... someone is second guessing one of the best personal men in NFL history...

I mean this guy built a winner everywhere he went. He build the bills into a perennial superbowl contender... then went to Carolina and in year 2 had them in the NFC championship game... then was poached by moribund Indianapolis, which he then promptly turned into a 14 year straight superbowl contender... even landing a ring in the bargain.

That's 3 for 3 on turning around a junk franchise... once building one litterally from scratch.

Sure he's had some misses, he's not perfect. But his trackrecord is insane.

[TigerJ]

I agree. Overall, Polian has to be considered one of the best. One of the signs of intelligence is learning from one's mistakes. The misses you point out, YardRat, are from early in Polian's managerial career. Polian's record suggests he got better over time, but even then, I'm sure he made mistakes. It also helps that while at Indianapolis he had one of the best quarterbacks of all time fall into his lap, but even then he still had to make the choice between Peyton Manning and the highly touted Ryan Leaf. Imagine if he had made the wrong choice. . .

The other thing I take from this thread is that Buddy Nix, even if he happened to be the second coming of Bill Polian (which I'm not suggesting) is going to make some mistakes along the way. The trick is to have more hits than misses over the long term.

[YardRat]

Some of you are missing the point.

Polian was a great GM, obviously our best. I don't tend to think the personnel moves he made were 'lucky'...many of his picks in the draft FA acquisitions etc were definite hits and not misses. Without Polian's influence we may still be looking for the first conference championship instead of actual Super Bowl victory.

But, on the other hand, when discussing an Aaron Williams, TJ Graham, Torrel Troup etc some people tend to forget, or maybe more aptly never realized to begin with, that it took time to build that team, and develop the talent, and the picks weren't all going to be AP's, HOFers or even starters, even if they were taken in the first 3-4 rounds.

Polian certainly wasn't perfect with all of his early round picks, I don't know why anybody would expect someone else to be.

[Night Train]

Some of you are missing the point.

Polian was a great GM, obviously our best. I don't tend to think the personnel moves he made were 'lucky'...many of his picks in the draft FA acquisitions etc were definite hits and not misses. Without Polian's influence we may still be looking for the first conference championship instead of actual Super Bowl victory.

But, on the other hand, when discussing an Aaron Williams, TJ Graham, Torrel Troup etc some people tend to forget, or maybe more aptly never realized to begin with, that it took time to build that team, and develop the talent, and the picks weren't all going to be AP's, HOFers or even starters, even if they were taken in the first 3-4 rounds.

Polian certainly wasn't perfect with all of his early round picks, I don't know why anybody would expect someone else to be.

Can you imagine the internet being around in those days ? Polian would have been run out of town many times over, Reich would have been replacing Kelly at QB every other week, Marv would have been ripped for his age after losing any game, Kenny Davis would have been a mentioned replacement for Thurman. Bruce would be labeled a drunk and dumped for picks.

It would have been priceless.

[sukie]

True but he was able to make up for that with free agency, trades etc. Honestly Polian was the best we had but as you point out he was far from great. Yet what's the common denominator in everything? Ralph Wilson. He does a great job at running the Bills as a business but a lousy job as a football team as either too cheap to pay good scouts or not trustful enough of his GMs etc or he scares away good HCs (see Saban, Knox and maybe even Wade Phillips). It's sickening really.

Didn't mass free agency start after the superbowl runs?

[pmoon6]

Didn't mass free agency start after the superbowl runs?Yes, they had "Plan B" free agency starting in the late '80's, but star players were never affected.

IMO, free agency ruined the Bills. Aside from losing Talley, Biscuit and Conlan, Howard Ballard and Wil Wolford, they lost younger guys that could have filled holes like Marvcus Patton and Carleton Bailey. We then had to sign guys like Paup and Spielman. We were still successful with our core players, so FA's actually wanted to come to Buffalo. Then everything blew up because the salary cap was mismanaged, leading to the release of Bruce, Thurman and Andre.

They no longer do, even when we have drafted good players, they finish their initial contract and leave. Just think if we could have kept Winfield and Clements at bookend corners for 10 years?

When a player has the choice to play in Florida or California or a big media market, for similar money, why would he want to stay in Buffalo? We are at a competitive disadvantage when it comes to FA and have to overpay to get them.

[mjt328]

People say Bill Polian was just lucky, because he happened to get Peyton Manning.

They forget that Polian was also responsible for drafting great NFL players like Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis and Bob Sanders - along with grabbing up free agents like Jeff Saturday. And that's just the big names. Guys like Dallas Clark, Ryan Diem, Gary Brackett, Brandon Stokely, Cato June, etc.. have been very solid starters.

The guy certainly wasn't perfect, but he's got an amazing track record with not one, not two, but three NFL franchises.

[better days]

Yes, they had "Plan B" free agency starting in the late '80's, but star players were never affected.

IMO, free agency ruined the Bills. Aside from losing Talley, Biscuit and Conlan, Howard Ballard and Wil Wolford, they lost younger guys that could have filled holes like Marvcus Patton and Carleton Bailey. We then had to sign guys like Paup and Spielman. We were still successful with our core players, so FA's actually wanted to come to Buffalo. Then everything blew up because the salary cap was mismanaged, leading to the release of Bruce, Thurman and Andre.

They no longer do, even when we have drafted good players, they finish their initial contract and leave. Just think if we could have kept Winfield and Clements at bookend corners for 10 years?

When a player has the choice to play in Florida or California or a big media market, for similar money, why would he want to stay in Buffalo? We are at a competitive disadvantage when it comes to FA and have to overpay to get them.


Well, Florida has no State tax while California has the highest tax in the Country. Clements went to the 49ers because they vastly overpaid him & he didn't last long there.

[The Jokeman]

Didn't mass free agency start after the superbowl runs?

As referenced earlier the Bills used Plan B free agency many times under Polian and unearthed a lot of talent. Guys like Lofton, Tasker and John and Kenny Davis were added that way as was Steve Christie.

[pmoon6]

Well, Florida has no State tax while California has the highest tax in the Country. Clements went to the 49ers because they vastly overpaid him & he didn't last long there.That's another good point.

Maybe Schumer and Cuomo can get special dispensation for Bills' players. That brings up another question. Do Jets and Giant's players pay NY State tax even though they work in Jersey?

[YardRat]

Can you imagine the internet being around in those days ? Polian would have been run out of town many times over, Reich would have been replacing Kelly at QB every other week, Marv would have been ripped for his age after losing any game, Kenny Davis would have been a mentioned replacement for Thurman. Bruce would be labeled a drunk and dumped for picks.

It would have been priceless.

He would have been vilified for never being able to fill the holes at NT, ILB, FS and CB#2.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

****, I want Polian back, but at this juncture I'd even go with John Butler's rotting corpse. Bills football futility, fourteen years of making me wish I was still a kid.

[better days]

That's another good point.

Maybe Schumer and Cuomo can get special dispensation for Bills' players. That brings up another question. Do Jets and Giant's players pay NY State tax even though they work in Jersey?

Only if they live in NY State. I doubt many of them do.

[trapezeus]

did polian ever mess up on QB in his three stops as head man? Kelly, Kerry collins, Peyton manning.

always done early, always picked right.

sure a couple players didn't pan out, but when he says privately that he doesn't think geno smith has what it takes, i'd listen to him.

Geno smith has andre ware written all over him. and frankly he has potential to get good, but not on a team like the bills. he needs to perform right away with the fans. and he's too raw. as a result, he'll get broken, he won't get the support to get better, and he just lost 2 decent receivers for no reason.

Keep selling us that change, russ. worst CEO in sports.