Who would you rather overpay for?

[coastal]

Mario "Fools Gold" Williams and his 10.5 limp wristed sacks

or

Andy Levitre, who along with Eric Wood, led the Bills o-line back to respectability while not missing a game in 4 years

And by all means... Please back up your rationaliztions for not selecting the obvious answer with REASON.

:goodpost:

[justasportsfan]

well it's too late for Mario. He's already signed. But Levitre. I still want him but thats just coming from a fan. I don't know whats on Marrone's mind especially since he himself is a former successful OL coach. If he thinks that he can easily replace Levitre , then we will have to wait and see.

[Pinkerton Security]

WTF is the point of this stupid thread? We already signed Mario?

[fluteflakes]

What is the point of this thread? Hell yes I want Mario Williams on my team, without him who's our best pass rusher, Dwan fugging Edwards? He had a wrist injury last year, the second he got surgery on it he was clearly better at using his hands and getting to the QB, what is with this hate of the guy?

If we get Levitre regardless of how much we pay it's worth it, he's the key to our running attack being so successful. Anybody other than him is a massive, massive downgrade.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Mario "Fools Gold" Williams and his 10.5 limp wristed sacks

or

Andy Levitre, who along with Eric Wood, led the Bills o-line back to respectability while not missing a game in 4 years

And by all means... Please back up your rationaliztions for not selecting the obvious answer with REASON.

:goodpost:
1. Your question is full of bias.
2. You don't :good post: your own post. It's tacky.

[coastal]

1. Your question is full of bias.
2. You don't :good post: your own post. It's tacky.
1. So what. Doesn't mean you can't contribute.
2. Tacky? Only people like Mike Robitaille use words like that anymore... Lolz.

[justasportsfan]

What is the point of this thread? Hell yes I want Mario Williams on my team, without him who's our best pass rusher, Dwan fugging Edwards? He had a wrist injury last year, the second he got surgery on it he was clearly better at using his hands and getting to the QB, what is with this hate of the guy?

If we get Levitre regardless of how much we pay it's worth it, he's the key to our running attack being so successful. Anybody other than him is a massive, massive downgrade.

Dwan is still on our team? ;)

Mario gets a pass from last year because Wanny was the DC plus the so called injury. If he fails this year there's no excuses even if he isn't a 3-4 DE.

[MTBillsFan]

Levitre because he's a stud. I think Mario is going to have a very solid 15+ sack year this year.

[coastal]

I want Mario Williamsyou want to the guy who had the whole defense up in arms because of a lack of effort on game day?

really?

[coastal]

WTF is the point of this stupid thread? We already signed Mario?
So u voted for "blow me"?

gotcha.

[SquishDaFish]

1. Your question is full of bias.
2. You don't :good post: your own post. It's tacky.

Look who its coming from LOL. The poster who has a hard on for Mario

[Mr. Miyagi]

Well we don't have a choice on what's already been done. So is your question really "now that we've overspent on Mario, do we want to also overspend on Levitre?" Is that it?

My answer will be no to that question.

- - - Updated - - -


Look who its coming from LOL. The poster who has a hard on for Mario
I do? What are you basing that on?

[coastal]

Look who its coming from LOL. The poster who has a hard on for Mario
Get involved in a positive way or go stick your fingers in a blender.

[SquishDaFish]

Well we don't have a choice on what's already been done. So is your question really "now that we've overspent on Mario, do we want to also overspend on Levitre?" Is that it?

My answer will be no to that question.

- - - Updated - - -


I do? What are you basing that on?


Not you Bro. The niners fan Coastal

[SquishDaFish]

Get involved in a positive way or go stick your fingers in a blender.

Dont need to get involved in your baseless garbage worthless thread that really shouldnt be on the main board. Go write your hate mail to Super Mario seeing you have the worlds biggest hard on for him. You go by his house stalking him in the offseason?

[coastal]

Well we don't have a choice on what's already been done. So is your question really "now that we've overspent on Mario, do we want to also overspend on Levitre?" Is that it?

My answer will be no
U r changing my question.

I realize its fantasy based... But it's the offseason so humor me? If given the choice to overpay on one player... Who would I be?

Mario or Andy?

[coastal]

Dont need to get involved in your baseless garbage worthless thread that really shouldnt be on the main board. Go write your hate mail to Super Mario seeing you have the worlds biggest hard on for him. You go by his house stalking him in the offseason?
16292

[SquishDaFish]

Your cool. But im sure you knew that already. Limp wrist

[mjt328]

Defensive end (especially an elite pass rushing talent) is a much harder position to fill than guard. In fact, guard may be the easiest position on the 22 man roster to fill. Many offensive tackles that struggle on the outside can be pushed inside and become much more effective.

I think most of us were disappointed with Mario last season, but after his wrist surgery, he was easily the best lineman on the team. Better than Kyle Williams and better than Marcel Dareus.

I'm just as disappointed as anyone in the fact that we will probably lose Levitre. I've been expecting it for several months. But if I had the choice to take back the Mario signing to keep Levitre, I wouldn't do it.

This is one of the reasons I'm pushing hard for a quarterback in this year's draft. Because until that position gets fixed, our other talented players are going to waste. We had our offensive line together for one full season and now it's getting pulled apart. It won't be long before Wood and Spiller are free agents. And then Dareus. And then Glenn. And then Mario becomes to expensive to keep. And then Kyle Williams will be over the hill. And so on...

[coastal]

Your cool.you're.

winning.

- - - Updated - - -


Your cool.you're.

winning.

[Mr. Miyagi]

U r changing my question.

I realize its fantasy based... But it's the offseason so humor me? If given the choice to overpay on one player... Who would I be?

Mario or Andy?
I already voted for Mario. I think I'd rather overpay a potentially elite DE than a above average G. Levitre is a good reliable guard and a versatile OLman. But is he the former Steve Hutchinson Larry Allen level? Not even close.

[coastal]

Mario becomes to expensive to keep...he already is.

[coastal]

I already voted for Mario. I think I'd rather overpay a potentially elite DE than a above average G. Levitre is a good reliable guard and a versatile OLman. But is he the former Steve Hutchinson Larry Allen level? Not even close.
I like how you added the adjective "potentially".

so DE is that important to overpay on potential as opposed to overpaying for production?

[SquishDaFish]

you're.

winning.

- - - Updated - - -

you're.

winning.

Not winning you loser. Try being spelling police on your niners board limp wrist

[Mr. Pink]

Mario Williams.

I'd never advocate paying 7m+ a year on a guard.

[YardRat]

I voted blow me just to break the tie.

Just regarding a general philosophy, I would rather overpay for a defensive player than an offensive guard.

[YardRat]

I already voted for Mario. I think I'd rather overpay a potentially elite DE than a above average G. Levitre is a good reliable guard and a versatile OLman. But is he the former Steve Hutchinson Larry Allen level? Not even close.

Yeah, how'd that work out for the Vikings? 4 seasons of .500 or below W-L record, two playoff appearances. Maybe if Minny hadn't tied up so much money in a G they might have been able to afford enough pcs to get them to the big game, or at least make the playoffs on a consistent basis. A 45-51 overall regular season W-L.

[cookie G]

I voted blow me just to break the tie.

Just regarding a general philosophy, I would rather overpay for a defensive player than an offensive guard.

Well, you're backing the right team, because we definitely like to do that.

I wonder if we get out of the bottom 5 on D this millenium?

[coastal]

I'd rather overpay for a productive player.

[YardRat]

Well, you're backing the right team, because we definitely like to do that.

I wonder if we get out of the bottom 5 on D this millenium?

I would contend that is a misperception. Yes, they have overpaid Kelsay and M.Williams, but who else on that side of the ball have they grossly overpaid as opposed to letting them walk, which there are a plethora of examples to choose from (Greer, Clements, Winfield...even guys like Hargrove and Whitner). Piss-poor drafting on defense? Sure. Over-paying? Not really, especially compared to the contract re-signings and FA's on the other side of the ball, from Fitz and Stevie, thru Dockery, Walker...back to Bledsoe.

[ServoBillieves]

I'd rather overpay for a productive player.

Are posts like these basis for murder? As in if I have to see this during the offseason and officially bash my face in to the computer until I can no-longer breathe can someone benefit from my loss of life?

[JoeMama]

There's an iron law in economics called a compensating wage differential. If you run a crappy organization and you want to hire the kind of talent required to turn it around, you have to offer a salary that exceeds the going market rate.

No player in his right mind is going to choose Buffalo over ANYWHERE ELSE unless we offer more money.

I'm in favor of overpaying whoever it takes to make this team a winner again. Fans talk about future cap implications as if winning is guaranteed and the contract we give Levitre today will jeopardize everything in 2015. That's really getting ahead of ourselves.

Let's stay in the present for a while.

Winning requires resources and talent. We don't lack for resources. Just talent.

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist or brain surgeon to figure out where the problem lies.

[cookie G]

I would contend that is a misperception. Yes, they have overpaid Kelsay and M.Williams, but who else on that side of the ball have they grossly overpaid as opposed to letting them walk, which there are a plethora of examples to choose from (Greer, Clements, Winfield...even guys like Hargrove and Whitner). Piss-poor drafting on defense? Sure. Over-paying? Not really, especially compared to the contract re-signings and FA's on the other side of the ball, from Fitz and Stevie, thru Dockery, Walker...back to Bledsoe.

Whitner, McLovin, McCargo and Maybin were all paid with pre-rookie cap 1st round money. 3 of them were paid top 12 money, or comparable to top FA's.

Add Dwan Edwards, Larry Triplett, Mark Anderson, Andra Davis, Shawne Merriman and so on down the line.

Hell, between Merriman, Maybin and Anderson, you've probably paid out over $40 million...for 3 total sacks.

That's over $13 million a sack.

[YardRat]

Whitner, McLovin, McCargo and Maybin were all paid with pre-rookie cap 1st round money. 3 of them were paid top 12 money, or comparable to top FA's.

Add Dwan Edwards, Larry Triplett, Mark Anderson, Andra Davis, Shawne Merriman and so on down the line.

Hell, between Merriman, Maybin and Anderson, you've probably paid out over $40 million...for 3 total sacks.

That's over $13 million a sack.

None of the above mentioned were 'overpaid'. The draftees were paid commensurate with their draft position, and the FA's were hardly top-line contracts similar to M.Williams or what Levitre will get.

[coastal]

The voting is close... or is it?

5 for Levitre, 2 for Mario... and 4 who know the right answer but their envy of me forbids them from choosing rationally.

so in reality... 9 for Levitre and 2 for Mario.

So far these results give me hope for Bills nation. It tells me you recognize Fools Gold when you see it.

bravo.

[BertSquirtgum]

I voted for blow me because you are a ******.

[coastal]

I voted for blow me because you are a ******.
10 for Levitre
2 for Mario

thank you.

[THRILLHO]

I voted Mario partially to piss you off, but more because we have had all sorts of trouble with the D-line and he is a step in the right direction.

[better days]

Yeah, how'd that work out for the Vikings? 4 seasons of .500 or below W-L record, two playoff appearances. Maybe if Minny hadn't tied up so much money in a G they might have been able to afford enough pcs to get them to the big game, or at least make the playoffs on a consistent basis. A 45-51 overall regular season W-L.

What have the Vikings LACKED during the time Hutchinson was there?

Ans: A GOOD QB. That is the reason they never won. NOT because they signed Hutchinson. They WON when they signed Favre even on his last legs.

[Mr. Miyagi]

The voting is close... or is it?

5 for Levitre, 2 for Mario... and 4 who know the right answer but their envy of me forbids them from choosing rationally.

so in reality... 9 for Levitre and 2 for Mario.

So far these results give me hope for Bills nation. It tells me you recognize Fools Gold when you see it.

bravo.
I'm so glad this kind of sample size is representative of Bills fans as a whole, and make you so happy. I'm happy for you.

[X-Era]

The Mario bashing is getting old.

[coastal]

The Mario bashing is getting old.
perhaps.. but if you actually pay attention there's a larger point here that's been made.

Mario is actually irrelevant to the discussion.

Building a winning TEAM isn't about just plugging players with specific measureables into spots and flipping a switch.

My larger point is and always has been that from a winning football games persepctive, the basic decision making process at OBD is fundamentally flawed.

Levitre's pending departure from WNY is another symptom of that.

What I find so peculiar is people's inability or refusal to acknowledge it.

[cookie G]

None of the above mentioned were 'overpaid'. The draftees were paid commensurate with their draft position, and the FA's were hardly top-line contracts similar to M.Williams or what Levitre will get.

That's awesome. Since they were drafted, their salary doesn't count, so they can't be overpaid.

Therefore, Maybin gets at least $15 million, doesn't record a sack, but he isn't "overpaid".

You should be thrilled. You said you'd rather they overpay on defense..and they have!

Just as good, you don't like paying OL, and we have the lowest paid OL in the league!

And if they have a choice between the OL and the DB to re-sign...you just KNOW who they are going with.

You pretty much get everything you want with the way this team is built.

Things like a chronically bad defense and a perennially losing record..well, that's the price we pay for getting what we want.

[YardRat]

That's awesome. Since they were drafted, their salary doesn't count, so they can't be overpaid.

Therefore, Maybin gets at least $15 million, doesn't record a sack, but he isn't "overpaid".

Any high draft pick that busts is 'overpaid', but the fact remains it doesn't matter what position would replace Maybin, the salary was set at draft market value. As I said, if you want to discuss piss-poor drafting on defense, fine, but 'over-paying' I don't consider a significant factor of the draft. Over paying is throwing 50mil plus at Fitz, millions on Dockery and Walker, etc.


You should be thrilled. You said you'd rather they overpay on defense..and they have!

Just as good, you don't like paying OL, and we have the lowest paid OL in the league!

I never said I didn't like paying olinemen, I don't like over-paying for them...especially a guard, which are pretty much the NFL version of 'a dime a dozen'.

Don't think their line is the lowest paid in the league, either. I've already shown that the current Super Bowl champions have less $2mil and up offensive linemen than the Bills do.


And if they have a choice between the OL and the DB to re-sign...you just KNOW who they are going with.

You pretty much get everything you want with the way this team is built.

Things like a chronically bad defense and a perennially losing record..well, that's the price we pay for getting what we want.

Byrd deserves it more than Levitre, and it's not even close. How many Pro Bowls has the 'we gotta keep!' guard been to? Oh yeah, just as many as Urbik and Rhinehart...None.

[YardRat]

What have the Vikings LACKED during the time Hutchinson was there?

Ans: A GOOD QB. That is the reason they never won. NOT because they signed Hutchinson. They WON when they signed Favre even on his last legs.

Simply not true...one of the seasons during Hutchinson's tenure they made it to the playoffs with Frerotte and TJax. Favre was their QB when they dropped to 6-10 his final season. What difference did Favre make for the Vikings? They were 18-14 the two seasons he was there, 18-14 the two seasons prior.

[cookie G]

Any high draft pick that busts is 'overpaid', but the fact remains it doesn't matter what position would replace Maybin, the salary was set at draft market value. As I said, if you want to discuss piss-poor drafting on defense, fine, but 'over-paying' I don't consider a significant factor of the draft.

Good...they were overpaid.



Over paying is throwing 50mil plus at Fitz,

Well ya know, these things happen when you don't address the QB position because other positions have "priority"

Whitner over Cutler;
Mclovin over Flacco;
Maybin over Freeman;
Williams over Kaepernick/Dalton.

Good thing none of these guys were overpaid, just overdrafted.

But again..you're one of those that thinks we can never have enough DB's...you should be happy. but if you end up paying more for a mediocre QB..well, the cost of drafting DB's.



millions on Dockery

Can't fight that. These things happen.



and Walker, etc.

In his 2 years here, he gave up 2 sacks in each season.

Prior to his coming here, the Bills ranked around 29th in running behind right tackle.

In his 2 years here, they ranked 2nd and 6th running behind RT. They ran for over 4.5 ypc in those years.

For 3 years after he left, they ranked 30th behind RT. They never approached 3.5 ypc in those years.

Ya get what you pay for. But if that's overpaying someone, we need to overpay a lot more O linemen.




I never said I didn't like paying olinemen, I don't like over-paying for them...especially a guard, which are pretty much the NFL version of 'a dime a dozen'.

As long as they are making the vet minimum, they can't be overpaid. So let's hit the waiver wire.



Don't think their line is the lowest paid in the league, either. I've already shown that the current Super Bowl champions have less $2mil and up offensive linemen than the Bills do.

Yup, they do.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323874204578217830553459320.html#project%3DNFLPAY0102%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive

Baltimore pays 2X as much for their Oline.

We actually started thinking a bit like Balt. in the past few years. We started picking Olinemen higher...rather than as an afterthought and lo and behold...it improves.

People want to go back to being anti-Ozzie. Because his way obviously doesn't work.

And the anti-Ozzie way has worked so well for the Bills for the past decade.



Byrd deserves it more than Levitre, and it's not even close. How many Pro Bowls has the 'we gotta keep!' guard been to? Oh yeah, just as many as Urbik and Rhinehart...None.

Spencer Johson and McLovin are worth more than him too.

Because guards are a dime a dozen.

And we need to draft more DB's.

[YardRat]

Good...they were overpaid.

Well ya know, these things happen when you don't address the QB position because other positions have "priority"

Whitner over Cutler;
Mclovin over Flacco;
Maybin over Freeman;
Williams over Kaepernick/Dalton.

Good thing none of these guys were overpaid, just overdrafted.

Do you want to discuss paying offensive linemen, or not addressing the QB situation through the draft? Two different subjects.


But again..you're one of those that thinks we can never have enough DB's...you should be happy. but if you end up paying more for a mediocre QB..well, the cost of drafting DB's.


Can never have enough DB's, especially in the current version of the NFL. Sorry that's the case, but it is. Hell, even Bill Polian never managed to find a strong second CB no matter how many he drafted, and he did draft them every year.


In his 2 years here, he gave up 2 sacks in each season.

Prior to his coming here, the Bills ranked around 29th in running behind right tackle.

In his 2 years here, they ranked 2nd and 6th running behind RT. They ran for over 4.5 ypc in those years.

For 3 years after he left, they ranked 30th behind RT. They never approached 3.5 ypc in those years.

Ya get what you pay for. But if that's overpaying someone, we need to overpay a lot more O linemen.

:rofl: Really, cookie? Metrics? We all know how bad Walker was in pass protection and against muscle...if he wasn't, he'd still be here. I never had you pegged as a 'We have the best o-line in the league because we give up the least sacks' kind of guy.


As long as they are making the vet minimum, they can't be overpaid. So let's hit the waiver wire.


Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Yup, they do.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323874204578217830553459320.html#project%3DNFLPAY0102%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive

Baltimore pays 2X as much for their Oline.

I'd be willing to stand corrected, except for the piddly fact that the source from the linked article doesn't even list salaries for Urbik or Brown.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/yearly/

Oops? Or did they play for free?



We actually started thinking a bit like Balt. in the past few years. We started picking Olinemen higher...rather than as an afterthought and lo and behold...it improves.

People want to go back to being anti-Ozzie. Because his way obviously doesn't work.

And the anti-Ozzie way has worked so well for the Bills for the past decade.

We should pick olinemen high. Go big, and early...good philosophy. Get better. But if one of them becomes slightly above average and expects an elite contract than it's time to cut bait.


Spencer Johson and McLovin are worth more than him too.

Because guards are a dime a dozen.

And we need to draft more DB's.

Both have value. Guards are the easiest oline position to replace.

[YardRat]

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/guard/

4-4.5 mil for a bottom-half, top ten guard. Even that's over-paying, because Levitre isn't one of the top 10 G's in the league, but I'd be willing to put him somewhere in the lower end of that range.

[cookie G]

Do you want to discuss paying offensive linemen, or not addressing the QB situation through the draft? Two different subjects.

wellll...YOU brought up the Fitz contract, not me. I just explained why he's getting paid what he is.






Can never have enough DB's, especially in the current version of the NFL. Sorry that's the case, but it is. Hell, even Bill Polian never managed to find a strong second CB no matter how many he drafted, and he did draft them every year.

Hey, if you keep saying that...it might actually come true!!!

Not that good defenses believe that, as I've pointed out before. Colbert and Newsome certainly don't subscribe to that.

But of course, we have 7 years of the Bills' D's to prove that theory. They've been awesome.
And of course, you have the Saints, Raiders and recent Patriots' defense to prove that theory.

Maybe we can sign DRC or Oso, they kick ass for the Eagles.



:rofl: Really, cookie? Metrics? We all know how bad Walker was in pass protection and against muscle...if he wasn't, he'd still be here. I never had you pegged as a 'We have the best o-line in the league because we give up the least sacks' kind of guy.

Don't ya hate pesky facts?

Nice retort...laughing..."we all know"..."he'd still be here"...

Solid, solid logic there.

In case you were wondering..he was cut because he was owed $5 million if he was on the opening day roster. He was cut because OL don't sell jerseys like TO did. He was cut by the same people who thought D. Bell was as good as Jason Peters.

In other words, by people (the ice cream salesman turned GM) who really don't watch the Oline and really can't differentiate a good lineman from a bad lineman. The ice cream salesman becomes GM...and both starting OT's are gone before opening day. Wow...that's a shock.



Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Its worked beautifully for the Bills...

Chris Villarial
Mike Pucillo
Ross Tucker
Lawrence Smith
Bennie Anderson
Mike Gandy
Duke Preston
Aaron Merz
Tutan Reyes
Brad Butler
Jason Whittle
Seth McKinney




I'd be willing to stand corrected, except for the piddly fact that the source from the linked article doesn't even list salaries for Urbik or Brown.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/yearly/

Oops? Or did they play for free?

Probably because they didn't quote anyone's salary.

and probably because they used the 2012 salaries, because..you know..they were talking about the 2012 season.

(in millions)

Pears 1.6
Rinehart 1.2
Urbik 1.2
Wood .8
Glenn .884
Levitre .615
Howard .49
Young .49
Hairston .46

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/yearly/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cordy-glenn/




We should pick olinemen high. Go big, and early...good philosophy. Get better. But if one of them becomes slightly above average and expects an elite contract than it's time to cut bait.

And when that DB sits there in the 1st or 2nd that is just too good to pass up? You know, because you have to draft DB's early and often?



Both have value. Guards are the easiest oline position to replace.

Of course they are. Another "keep saying that and eventually it'll come true" statement.

[YardRat]

wellll...YOU brought up the Fitz contract, not me. I just explained why he's getting paid what he is.

In the context of your claim that the team over pays for defense but not offense.

Hey, if you keep saying that...it might actually come true!!!


Not that good defenses believe that, as I've pointed out before. Colbert and Newsome certainly don't subscribe to that.

But of course, we have 7 years of the Bills' D's to prove that theory. They've been awesome.
And of course, you have the Saints, Raiders and recent Patriots' defense to prove that theory.

Newsome went after Graham in FA (who I wanted the Bills to sign, FWIW), and drafted two Dbacks the last two years, including their first in 11. Oakland sucks worse than we do, if that's possible.


Maybe we can sign DRC or Oso, they kick ass for the Eagles.


I would sign DRC, unless he's looking for a bank-breaker.



In case you were wondering..he was cut because he was owed $5 million if he was on the opening day roster. He was cut because OL don't sell jerseys like TO did. He was cut by the same people who thought D. Bell was as good as Jason Peters.

In other words, by people (the ice cream salesman turned GM) who really don't watch the Oline and really can't differentiate a good lineman from a bad lineman. The ice cream salesman becomes GM...and both starting OT's are gone before opening day. Wow...that's a shock.


Walker sucked, plain and simple. I'm certainly not going to defend Brandon, or even Levy or Donahoe for that matter.



Its worked beautifully for the Bills...

Chris Villarial
Mike Pucillo
Ross Tucker
Lawrence Smith
Bennie Anderson
Mike Gandy
Duke Preston
Aaron Merz
Tutan Reyes
Brad Butler
Jason Whittle
Seth McKinney

Most of those draft picks...which you want the team to continue to pick up. Can't believe you left off the infamous Mike Williams...maybe we should have extended him also?


Probably because they didn't quote anyone's salary.

and probably because they used the 2012 salaries, because..you know..they were talking about the 2012 season.

(in millions)

Pears 1.6
Rinehart 1.2
Urbik 1.2
Wood .8
Glenn .884
Levitre .615
Howard .49
Young .49
Hairston .46

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/yearly/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cordy-glenn/


I don't know what link you're looking at, but the 2012 on spotrac doesn't show any salary for Urbik and Brown. The numbers you quote above don't match the spotrac numbers for 2012 either, not to mention they add to more than the dollar figure originall referenced in the wsj link. C'mon, gil...you've got to at least use relevant figures, not imaginary ones.


And when that DB sits there in the 1st or 2nd that is just too good to pass up? You know, because you have to draft DB's early and often?

I've already said...go big, early. Of course I've already said you can never have enough good DB's. Both are true.


Of course they are. Another "keep saying that and eventually it'll come true" statement.

It is true. What's harder to come by? Quality centers, quality OT's or quality guards? Be honest...

[better days]

Any high draft pick that busts is 'overpaid', but the fact remains it doesn't matter what position would replace Maybin, the salary was set at draft market value. As I said, if you want to discuss piss-poor drafting on defense, fine, but 'over-paying' I don't consider a significant factor of the draft. Over paying is throwing 50mil plus at Fitz, millions on Dockery and Walker, etc.



I never said I didn't like paying olinemen, I don't like over-paying for them...especially a guard, which are pretty much the NFL version of 'a dime a dozen'.

Don't think their line is the lowest paid in the league, either. I've already shown that the current Super Bowl champions have less $2mil and up offensive linemen than the Bills do.



Byrd deserves it more than Levitre, and it's not even close. How many Pro Bowls has the 'we gotta keep!' guard been to? Oh yeah, just as many as Urbik and Rhinehart...None.

I agree with your first point.

I disagree with the 2nd point. Guards that have signed a new contract recently have been paid in the $8 Million range, that is not dime a dozen & if teams thought Guards were dime a dozen, they would not have signed those Guards to those salarys. The price for Guards has gone up, get used to it.

I agree that Byrd is a better player at his position than Levitre is at his. Byrd is a Pro Bowl player, Levitre is not. That said, I think Levitre will get paid well, but not as much as some people think, because he is NOT a Pro Bowl player. As I said before, I think Levitre has more value to the Bills than any other team because Chemistry is so important on the OL. I hope some other team does not want to vastly over pay Levitre. I would be happy if the Bills could sign him in the $7 to $8 Million range. As I said, the price of a GOOD Guard has gone up.

[cookie G]

In the context of your claim that the team over pays for defense but not offense.


So...you DID bring it up. Don't complain when you're told why he's overpaid.




Newsome went after Graham in FA (who I wanted the Bills to sign, FWIW), and drafted two Dbacks the last two years, including their first in 11. Oakland sucks worse than we do, if that's possible.

He paid Graham a little under $2 million a year. And?

He's used high draft picks on db's twice in 12 years. (As opposed to 5 times since 2006).

I never said he didn't draft them. I said he doesn't waste valuable resources on them. He drafts them in day 2 or day 3.

Because he understands that failed WR's without hands are a dime a dozen. A few great ones come along per decade..but sub 4.5 guys aren't all that hard to find.

That's why his starting CB's this year were a former UDFA and a former 4th round pick.




I would sign DRC, unless he's looking for a bank-breaker.

Of course you would. Its in your blood.

And of course, Philly's looking to dump him and Oso because...after spending a ton...the Philly D gave up the most TD's in franchise history.

One of these days, there's going to be some evidence to support this "build your defense from the back" theory...probably the same time levitating cars become common place.

Until then..



Walker sucked, plain and simple.

Oh...well then. Hard to refute such an air tight case as that.



Most of those draft picks...which you want the team to continue to pick up. Can't believe you left off the infamous Mike Williams...maybe we should have extended him also?

Feel free to mention him, of course, it was 11 years ago.

For every Mike Williams, there's been 3 McLovins.



I don't know what link you're looking at, but the 2012 on spotrac doesn't show any salary for Urbik and Brown. The numbers you quote above don't match the spotrac numbers for 2012 either, not to mention they add to more than the dollar figure originall referenced in the wsj link. C'mon, gil...you've got to at least use relevant figures, not imaginary ones.

Sigh..more remedial reading tutoring...


Pears 1.6
Rinehart 1.2
Urbik 1.2
Wood .8
Glenn .884
Levitre .615
Howard .49
Young .49
Hairston .46

And here is what Sportrac reported...(p.s. you have to look up their 2012

Pears 1,600,000
Rinehart 1,260,000
Wood 800,000
Glenn 884,580
Levitre 615,000
Young 540,000
Hairston 465,000

Urbik signed the same tender as Rinehart. The tender figure for 2012 was 1,260,000

"The values for restricted free agent designations and franchise tenders have also been set. The regular restricted free-agent tender is $1.26 million, while a second-round tender is $1.927 million. The first-round tender amount is $2.742 million."
http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/03/11/salary-cap-set-at-120-6-million-for-2012/

I listed Colin Brown as Howard (you know, that awesome Cordero guy..As if it really makes any difference.)

It was $490,000 in 2012, as I had stated. http://www.sportscity.com/nfl/salaries/buffalo-bills-salaries/

Now get out your calculator, or take off your shoes and socks, whichever...and add the numbers.

The article I cited lists 7.2 million. I've got 7.9 million or so.

So they left off one of the vet minimum salaries.

The long and short of this silly exercise? (and I really appreciate you making me do it twice) The Bills paid lowest in the league for their Oline...(ok, maybe 3rd lowest if you count an extra scrub's salary) And no where near out spend Balt. by $2 million, or whatever you claimed.

Now if you're going to do this "ROFL, your numbers are imaginary.." could you at least do at least some cursory fact checking? I mean, it makes you come across as a grinning idiot, like JLB at the Range. And that's not good.



I've already said...go big, early. Of course I've already said you can never have enough good DB's. Both are true.

Will they? We'll see.



It is true. What's harder to come by? Quality centers, quality OT's or quality guards? Be honest...

It depends on the guard and it depends on the tackle. I'll take Warmack in a heartbeat over a Justin Pugh, and wouldn't think twice about it. You can't look at Olinemen purely by position.

But since we're still on this "you don't overpay for guards" and "they're the easiest to replace" theory..and since I had to open the Wall St. Journal article...get your ROFL's out for this one...

Last year, the teams that spent the most on guards in the NFL were..

NE
NYG
GB
Den
NO
Wash.
NYJ
Atl

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...%3Dinteractive

The top 7 scoring teams in the NFL last year were...

NE
Den
NO
Was
GB
NYG
Atl

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/by...ense&cat=Total

Kinda cool how that works out.

[YardRat]

I'll probably have to respond to this in pieces, don't feel like doing more research at the moment...




And of course, Philly's looking to dump him and Oso because...after spending a ton...the Philly D gave up the most TD's in franchise history.

Anybody that tries to turn an offensive line coach into a defensive coordinator deserves what they get, regardless of the talent on the team.


One of these days, there's going to be some evidence to support this "build your defense from the back" theory...probably the same time levitating cars become common place.

Until then..

Actually I believe in building from the lines out, and have stated such several times over several years. Over-paying for an above-average guard is not mutually inclusive within that philosophy, however, and does not preclude the importance of have a good defensive backfield.


Oh...well then. Hard to refute such an air tight case as that.

Sometimes the truth hurts.



Sigh..more remedial reading tutoring...

Pears 1.6
Rinehart 1.2
Urbik 1.2
Wood .8
Glenn .884
Levitre .615
Howard .49
Young .49
Hairston .46

And here is what Sportrac reported...(p.s. you have to look up their 2012

Pears 1,600,000
Rinehart 1,260,000
Wood 800,000
Glenn 884,580
Levitre 615,000
Young 540,000
Hairston 465,000

Urbik signed the same tender as Rinehart. The tender figure for 2012 was 1,260,000

"The values for restricted free agent designations and franchise tenders have also been set. The regular restricted free-agent tender is $1.26 million, while a second-round tender is $1.927 million. The first-round tender amount is $2.742 million."
http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/03/11/salary-cap-set-at-120-6-million-for-2012/

I listed Colin Brown as Howard (you know, that awesome Cordero guy..As if it really makes any difference.)

It was $490,000 in 2012, as I had stated. http://www.sportscity.com/nfl/salaries/buffalo-bills-salaries/

Now get out your calculator, or take off your shoes and socks, whichever...and add the numbers.

The article I cited lists 7.2 million. I've got 7.9 million or so.

So they left off one of the vet minimum salaries.

The long and short of this silly exercise? (and I really appreciate you making me do it twice) The Bills paid lowest in the league for their Oline...(ok, maybe 3rd lowest if you count an extra scrub's salary) And no where near out spend Balt. by $2 million, or whatever you claimed.

Now if you're going to do this "ROFL, your numbers are imaginary.." could you at least do at least some cursory fact checking? I mean, it makes you come across as a grinning idiot, like JLB at the Range. And that's not good.

I did look up 2012, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to point out the lack of Urbik's contract value. You really didn't have to go through and do the work a second time, a simple "You're right, Yardie...Urbik's contract wasn't accounted for and the numbers don't add up" would have sufficed.



It depends on the guard and it depends on the tackle. I'll take Warmack in a heartbeat over a Justin Pugh, and wouldn't think twice about it. You can't look at Olinemen purely by position.


I would too...Warmack might be a stud and Pugh will never make it, especially at LT, at this level. However, if in 4 years Warmack performs slightly above average, never plays better than the top half of the guys at his position, and shows a weakness at the POA and against power d-linemen then comes back to the team looking for LT money I'd let him walk also.


But since we're still on this "you don't overpay for guards" and "they're the easiest to replace" theory..and since I had to open the Wall St. Journal article...get your ROFL's out for this one...

Last year, the teams that spent the most on guards in the NFL were..

NE
NYG
GB
Den
NO
Wash.
NYJ
Atl

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...%3Dinteractive

The top 7 scoring teams in the NFL last year were...

NE
Den
NO
Was
GB
NYG
Atl

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/by...ense&cat=Total

Kinda cool how that works out.

Yeah it is cool, considering some of them couldn't make the playoffs at all, and the rest of them got their asses handed to them at some point by a superior defense.

[Mouldsie]

DE > OG

[better days]

Simply not true...one of the seasons during Hutchinson's tenure they made it to the playoffs with Frerotte and TJax. Favre was their QB when they dropped to 6-10 his final season. What difference did Favre make for the Vikings? They were 18-14 the two seasons he was there, 18-14 the two seasons prior.

Yeah it is true. In Favres final year he had nothing left. When they made it to the playoffs with Freotte & TJAX, if they had a GOOD QB like Favre in his prime, they could have won the Super Bowl.

[YardRat]

Yeah it is true. In Favres final year he had nothing left. When they made it to the playoffs with Freotte & TJAX, if they had a GOOD QB like Favre in his prime, they could have won the Super Bowl.

Purely speculation, and a reach at that. How many seasons did Green Bay have Favre in his prime and fail to reach, let alone win, a Super Bowl?

[YardRat]

San Francisco did a pretty good turnaround, offensively and defensively, and all they did was get a new coaching staff, sign one G for a little over 2mil per (Goodwin), and signing two FA's for the secondary (Whitner at $3mil per, Rogers at 5.5mil per).

[THATHURMANATOR]

Mario Williams by a landslide.

Reality is Levitre is a guard and guards are easily replaced.

[better days]

San Francisco did a pretty good turnaround, offensively and defensively, and all they did was get a new coaching staff, sign one G for a little over 2mil per (Goodwin), and signing two FA's for the secondary (Whitner at $3mil per, Rogers at 5.5mil per).

The 49ers turned around because in addition to a number of GOOD players, they added a GOOD QB. Smith was good enough last year to get them to a better finish than they had before because Harbaugh coached him up. This year they got even further with a GOOD QB in Kaepernick.

[better days]

Purely speculation, and a reach at that. How many seasons did Green Bay have Favre in his prime and fail to reach, let alone win, a Super Bowl?

No one player can do it alone, not even a GOOD QB. But if you add players around him a GOOD QB will take you much further than the same team without one.

[braddavery]

Williams has many more years to prove himself. He wasn't signed for one season. I would LOVE to have Levitre back, but not for LT money. He's a guard.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Pretty sure I've posted this article on the board before, but I'm going to repost it just the same. A breakdown of how the 49ers', after foolishly investing first round picks on their left guard and right tackle, utterly dominated the intelligent Bills and their #3 overall and 140+ million D Line.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2012/word-muth-beaten-bills

[YardRat]

Pretty sure I've posted this article on the board before, but I'm going to repost it just the same. A breakdown of how the 49ers', after foolishly investing first round picks on their left guard and right tackle, utterly dominated the intelligent Bills and their #3 overall and 140+ million D Line.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2012/word-muth-beaten-bills

Both are on their rookie contracts (Davis and Iupati), let's see how much San Fran is willing to pony up to keep them when they are scheduled to become UFA's.

The rest of the oline...Goodwin C/G = FA for about 2mil per, Boone an UDFA, Staley a late first round LT that signed an extension that averages 4.7mil thru 2017.

Not a man on that line making 6-8mil per, especially at the guard spots.

[TigerJ]

Mario is already under contract for a long time to come. I still chose him because I think the wrist issue was real and as he got healthier he became more effective. Moreover, I think Mike Pettine's more aggressive scheme will lend itself to greater production from and freakily athletic player like Williams. While I like Levitre as a guard, I think Buffalo got excellent production out of Chad Rinehart, and he is fully capable of starting for a lot less money than Levitre.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Both are on their rookie contracts (Davis and Iupati), let's see how much San Fran is willing to pony up to keep them when they are scheduled to become UFA's.

They threw two picks in the top 20 of the entire draft on those guys, and they knew going in that they would be a left guard and right tackle. The picks have panned out as well as they could have possibly hoped - both are elite players at their positions and they have the best OLine in football.

So your plan would be to let them walk because they are expensive?


The rest of the oline...Goodwin C/G = FA for about 2mil per, Boone an UDFA, Staley a late first round LT that signed an extension that averages 4.7mil thru 2017.

Not a man on that line making 6-8mil per, especially at the guard spots.

Goodwin and Boone were good pickups, and the 49ers had the foresight to lock them up rather than develop them and then scramble with a week left before free agency. But would they still be as good if they weren't playing with multiple All-Pros around them? As Cookie G noted in another thread, having good players like Levitre on one side allows Wood to help Urbik and Reinhart on the other.

But lets look again at Staley. His contract was worth $42 million potentially, but his cap hits are low because the team dumped a massive, nearly $14 million dollar hit on one season (2009). When I pointed out that the Bills could do the same thing with Levitre, you balked.

Also, since we are mentioning that game, it's worth pointing out that Levitre had Hairston on his side instead of Glenn due to injury, facing not one but TWO all pros in San Francisco's defensive front seven, and didn't give up a sack.

[YardRat]

They threw two picks in the top 20 of the entire draft on those guys, and they knew going in that they would be a left guard and right tackle. The picks have panned out as well as they could have possibly hoped - both are elite players at their positions and they have the best OLine in football.

So your plan would be to let them walk because they are expensive?

I said 'let's see how much San Fran is willing to pony up to keep them when they are scheduled to become UFA's' and made no mention of any 'plan' of mine.




Goodwin and Boone were good pickups, and the 49ers had the foresight to lock them up rather than develop them and then scramble with a week left before free agency. But would they still be as good if they weren't playing with multiple All-Pros around them? As Cookie G noted in another thread, having good players like Levitre on one side allows Wood to help Urbik and Reinhart on the other.


Good pick-ups, cheap. Like all guards should be.


But lets look again at Staley. His contract was worth $42 million potentially, but his cap hits are low because the team dumped a massive, nearly $14 million dollar hit on one season (2009). When I pointed out that the Bills could do the same thing with Levitre, you balked.

Also, since we are mentioning that game, it's worth pointing out that Levitre had Hairston on his side instead of Glenn due to injury, facing not one but TWO all pros in San Francisco's defensive front seven, and didn't give up a sack.

Except your example with Levitre is completely different than Staley's...Staley got his money up front, the first year the extension was signed...your example goes cheap in year one, and pushes the 'massive hit' off to year two, which I stated was highly unlikely to be agreed to by Levitre. Light years difference between 'pay me now' and 'pay me next season'.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I said 'let's see how much San Fran is willing to pony up to keep them when they are scheduled to become UFA's' and made no mention of any 'plan' of mine.

When you go on and say this:


Good pick-ups, cheap. Like all guards should be.

It's pretty easy to see what your plans would be for Iupati at least, as he stands to command as much as Levitre but likely more.


Except your example with Levitre is completely different than Staley's...Staley got his money up front, the first year the extension was signed...your example goes cheap in year one, and pushes the 'massive hit' off to year two, which I stated was highly unlikely to be agreed to by Levitre. Light years difference between 'pay me now' and 'pay me next season'.

You're still not grasping the difference between when a player gets paid and when his cap hit lands.

I'll give you some hints:
Joe Flacco is $29 million dollars richer than he was a month ago.
Baltimore's salary cap is only $6.8 million heavier.

[YardRat]

When you go on and say this:

It's pretty easy to see what your plans would be for Iupati at least, as he stands to command as much as Levitre but likely more.

Yes, if at that time Iupati is asking for LT money, I would let him walk. The point remains, let's see what San Fran does when the time comes.


You're still not grasping the difference between when a player gets paid and when his cap hit lands.

I'll give you some hints:
Joe Flacco is $29 million dollars richer than he was a month ago.
Baltimore's salary cap is only $6.8 million heavier.

I'm well aware of how the salary cap works, I think you are underestimating the amount of signing bonus the Bills will have to pay to Levitre up front in order to make it worth his while to push a salary dump off to the second season. Bigger signing bonus = bigger cap hit in all years, including the first. I'm not saying your math is incorrect...I'm not even saying your scenario is impossible to achieve...it is, however, very highly unlikely that a player and his agent would agree to the terms.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Yes, if at that time Iupati is asking for LT money, I would let him walk. The point remains, let's see what San Fran does when the time comes.

I'm well aware of how the salary cap works, I think you are underestimating the amount of signing bonus the Bills will have to pay to Levitre up front in order to make it worth his while to push a salary dump off to the second season. Bigger signing bonus = bigger cap hit in all years, including the first. I'm not saying your math is incorrect...I'm not even saying your scenario is impossible to achieve...it is, however, very highly unlikely that a player and his agent would agree to the terms.

Yes, obviously increasing the bonus increases his cap hit, but that increases is divided however many ways you want. Since Levitre is 26, I'm more than willing to give him a 6 or possibly 7 year deal.

This is the sort of schmoozing that Nix should have been doing all year, but it seems we are in the final hours with no deal approaching.

[YardRat]

Yes, obviously increasing the bonus increases his cap hit, but that increases is divided however many ways you want. Since Levitre is 26, I'm more than willing to give him a 6 or possibly 7 year deal.

This is the sort of schmoozing that Nix should have been doing all year, but it seems we are in the final hours with no deal approaching.

This time of year is such a Catch-22. Love the excitement of chasing new players, the potential of adding talent and filling holes...hate the speculation and lack of any real info as to who they are talking to bring in, who they really are interested in keeping of their own, and could care less who goes elsewhere.

[better days]

This time of year is such a Catch-22. Love the excitement of chasing new players, the potential of adding talent and filling holes...hate the speculation and lack of any real info as to who they are talking to bring in, who they really are interested in keeping of their own, and could care less who goes elsewhere.

And it is all the more nerve wracking with the front office reshuffle & new HC in the picture. Driving me crazy thinking how much Nix is listening to Marrone & does Marrone know what he is doing?

[YardRat]

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130309/SPORTS/130309195/1003

The NFL’s top-paid guard is Tampa Bay’s Carl Nicks, at $9.8 million a year. The fifth-highest paid guard is the Giants’ Chris Snee, at $7.25 million a year. Arizona’s Daryn Colledge has the 10th best guard deal, at about $5.5 million a year.


Levitre never has made All-Pro or the Pro Bowl. But neither has Colledge nor Green Bay’s Josh Sitton, who makes $5.8 million a year.

[YardRat]

I will say this...not a fan of paying a G 6 mil per season, but if it comes down to a simple choice between Levitre or LaRon Landry at that figure I would give the money to Levitre.

[better days]

Yes, if at that time Iupati is asking for LT money, I would let him walk. The point remains, let's see what San Fran does when the time comes.



I'm well aware of how the salary cap works, I think you are underestimating the amount of signing bonus the Bills will have to pay to Levitre up front in order to make it worth his while to push a salary dump off to the second season. Bigger signing bonus = bigger cap hit in all years, including the first. I'm not saying your math is incorrect...I'm not even saying your scenario is impossible to achieve...it is, however, very highly unlikely that a player and his agent would agree to the terms.


Why would a player & his agent not agree to guaranteed bonus money in lieu of salary? They do that all the time. In fact that is what Brady just did. And the reports he was making less money are false, he is actually making more money but it counts less against the cap because it is not in the form of salary, it is bonus money.

[YardRat]

Why would a player & his agent not agree to guaranteed bonus money in lieu of salary? They do that all the time. In fact that is what Brady just did. And the reports he was making less money are false, he is actually making more money but it counts less against the cap because it is not in the form of salary, it is bonus money.

I agree, but if I remember Illum's example correctly the contract pushes off a big salary dump into the second year of the contract in exchange for league minimum and signing bonus in the first year. A player and his agent are more likely to minimize the risk of pushing off an eight-figure salary by demanding a much larger, guaranteed signing bonus up front.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I agree, but if I remember Illum's example correctly the contract pushes off a big salary dump into the second year of the contract in exchange for league minimum and signing bonus in the first year. A player and his agent are more likely to minimize the risk of pushing off an eight-figure salary by demanding a much larger, guaranteed signing bonus up front.

They are pushing it off by one year. Considering that the dead money would be staggeringly high if we cut him after one year (and what would possess us to do that?) I think Levitre could be convinced the risk would be small. Hell, you can make a large chunk of it guaranteed if you want to.

[Mahdi]

Mario....

Pass rusher over G always. Mario had 10.5 sacks despite injury.